Jeremy mentioning the fruits in our own marriages of what rejecting polygamy for the abomination it is does to our relationships is a stronger case than pretty much anything else. Truly it is. It’s undeniable EVIDENCE as hard as anything else could be. Absolutely marvelous words there. I want to add my GRATITUDE with Jeremy to Joseph’s teachings on Godly marriage and his great clarification on the “image of God” and how it has unspeakably blessed my own marriage to my soul mate. Seeking BLESSINGS under the hand of Joseph’s teachings on actual marriage has not been done by my wife and I in vain. That is my testimony.
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
Love that!! Thanks for sharing 😇
@Wh3nth3wick3drul3
3 ай бұрын
There was a single mom with one child when I lived in Idaho, my husband came to me and said how much he was struggling with this woman, it crushed me, it broke my heart, it hurt our relationship. That was the very first time I started to believe that polygamy was not right. It strained our relationship so badly. But I still believed in Polygamy and even more so when I had small children and teens who wouldn't do their part in cleaning up after themselves. I would clean the front room and go to the kitchen and while I was cleaning the front room, the kids messed up the front room as though it had never been cleaned up before. And one time, I had all the toys in separate totes in the basement, spent a ton of time sorting and organizing them. I went upstairs to clean something else and when I got done I came back downstairs and the little boys had emptied every single tote all over the basement floor. I bawled. I couldn't keep up with the kids. Then to top it off, my husband's mother was judgmental as was his sister in law. His mother was able to ship off her kids to her sister when she needed help. My sister was able to ship off her kids to my parents. And all my husband's sisters and sister in laws were able to hire cleaning ladies, but I was not able to. Then I had my mission companion come stay with me while she was going through a divorce because her husband was addicted to pornography and destroyed their marriage. And our kids fought like crazy after seven months of living with us. So, again I learned that having someone else's family doesn't work out. Then again, my husband ended up lusting after women and it solidified to me that Jacob 2 is always the case, one wife and concubines ye shall have none!
@nostoppingit7243
3 ай бұрын
My heart goes out to you hopefully Jacob 2:31-35 gives you some comfort.
@Wh3nth3wick3drul3
3 ай бұрын
@@nostoppingit7243: Thank you. I just hope my husband can overcome this crap. He's been taking addiction recovery classes for it all.
@cprmom
3 ай бұрын
My heart breaks hearing your experience.
@Kristy_not_Kristine
3 ай бұрын
Thanks for all you are doing to share the truth. Polygamy is an abomination in ALL cases in God's eyes, and ought to be in ours. ❤
@SamieLeigh
3 ай бұрын
Michelle, Jeremy, and Whitney ~ thank you, thank you for seeking and finding this truth. It will prevail. Thank you for all of your efforts and for sharing these things with all of us.
@kencard6657
3 ай бұрын
In the early days with the Prophet Joseph Smith, "all marriages" were to be done "outside" the temple in a public setting, where they should be done today if we were following Joseph. It was Brigham's polygamy doctrine that brought "marriages" inside the temple.
@kathybence
3 ай бұрын
Good point that marriages were taken out of the open into secret places! And unless things have changed recently, women always seem to be followed by "new and everlasting covenant" wording in the temple which I find very troubling and deceptive.
@MelindaSandberg
3 ай бұрын
I am in total agreement with your statement. As we sat in the temple sealing office last Saturday with a large, loud group dressed in evening wear I realized how wise Joseph's advice was and would be today. Let everyone celebrate the wedding in public and allow the sealing to be the sacred experience it should be.
@PresidentBrighamYoung
2 ай бұрын
That’s cute, Ken. Now, repent!
@loveandacademics
2 ай бұрын
I had not heard that
@kencard6657
2 ай бұрын
@@PresidentBrighamYoung I am the great-great grandson of Brigham Young. I have repented of what Brigham Young taught in leading the LDS Church astray through his polygamy doctrine. Click on my picture icon and read my essay on Marriage And Polygamy and become enlightened!
@defythegrid9577
3 ай бұрын
I haven't seen anything in the scriptures (besides 132 and ones added after Josephs death) that teach about exaltation in the way we think about it today. 3 Nephi 11:39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. 40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
@MommaCrissa
3 ай бұрын
I've also done a word search for "exalt" "exaltation" etc. and nothing matches it with the way the leadership gave it to us! WKJS gives a good presentation on something to think about as far as the degrees of glory. I have found that when it talks about the different degrees comparing the sun, moon and stars, that humans, animals and the birds&fish are also compared. Honestly I think what is really being said is that humans will all have the celestial bodies, and that the animals and such will have the other bodies. So, exaltation isn't an added celestial realm of some kind but it may mean "revered or made great".
@defythegrid9577
3 ай бұрын
@@MommaCrissa Thank you for your insight. It's about time we return to the scriptures instead of what we've been spoon fed these 200 or so years.
@DavidN831
3 ай бұрын
Go get Brian! You are not doing so with contention or unfairly at all. Brian has been dishonest and a bully. He needs to repent, as does the lds church. Then faith can be built on truth in Christ rather than men.
@cdmbcgm
3 ай бұрын
What do we need to repent of? Do tell I'm all ears.
@DavidN831
3 ай бұрын
@@cdmbcgm LOL! Obviously, you have yet to look up and read any of the actual historical documents Michelle Stone or Rob Fotheringham show in their videos and read them for yourself. Also, Justin Griffin's "Who Killed Joseph Smith" video is worth watching. Whitney Horning's books are good historical and well-documented reads as well. But to answer your question, the best case scenario is Brigham Young started polygamy and lied when he claimed he learned it from Joseph Smith because all of the most credible evidence (most on the Joseph Smith Papers website) supports the idea that Joseph was telling the truth in his life and only fought and never practiced polygamy. The ramifications of that are significant. Worst case scenario, John Taylor and Willard Richards actually pulled the trigger and killed Joseph and Hyrum, not the mob, as part of an 8 or 9-month plot by BY and others of the 12 to kill them and take over the church.
@westonwoodbury3011
2 ай бұрын
If we don’t Repent we aren’t gods people, we are the temples , the church is just people that he dwells in. Can’t go wrong with repenting take it to lord he will show you.
@reppi8742
3 ай бұрын
I was a Catholic and divorced an alcoholic abusive husband. Because I got a divorce, they said I was damned. I was baptized into the LDS church. I have never believed in plural marriage. I met my husband at church. We have been married (sealed) 35 years. So i guess I am damned again? . Doubled damned. Foolishness. The struggle I am having now, before I heard these programs, is whether we have had a prophet since Joseph Smith, Jr or just presidents of the church. I believe the BOM is true and the temple endowment is real. There are archeological evidences that help sure up my beliefs at this point. I am afraid Pres Nelson's "teasers" about the restoration not being complete may include polygamy. My belief is that JOSEPH is THE prophet of the restoration.
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
I believe part of the restoration is clearing up Joseph's name. I do not believe polygamy will return... at least not by our leaders. I do believe members will create groups and attempt to resurrect the practice which is why we need to be prayerful that we're not deceived. I believe many will be and that'll be a sad day. Polygamy was never of God so there's no restoration of a false doctrine👌💖
@loveandacademics
2 ай бұрын
Are you worried about how "Think Celestial" will connect to polygamy. I have a slight sliver of a worry about that.
@LadyPoet06
3 ай бұрын
Eternal harems are the biggest fallacy and the most foolish tradition of our father’s. Monogamy for both men and women is truth.
@cdmbcgm
3 ай бұрын
I thought this channel supports Gay marriage which is contrary to you Statement. It feel like one moment they align with the proclamation to the family the next video it doesn't.
@PilatesAnne
3 ай бұрын
Last week the realization that Joseph could not translate without making it right with Emma sunk deep into my heart. My husband added the realization that Joseph could not get the plates until he had Emma with him. This week when Jeremy and Whitney expressed a greater depth and sanctity of marriage I felt it again. I felt a flood of truth wash over me. My husband said, “that is the way God works.” My husband will only accept callings that we can do together. We are having the best time listening to these videos together then we discuss and apply them.
@harryepstein3629
3 ай бұрын
Great points- that joseph couldn't do anything without emma---
@jrtodd-br4zc
3 ай бұрын
Keep going on that straight and narrow path Anne, and the scriptures will open like you can’t presently imagine to you and your husband. It sounds like you two are warming up!! Thank God!!
@loveandacademics
2 ай бұрын
I think that's pretty cool about your husband and the church callings
@freethinker1026
3 ай бұрын
It saddens me every time Joseph F. Smith is brought into this discussion, on either side, as I see him as one of the biggest victims in all this and also the one who finally ended it. He was a child when his father was killed and his mother dragged him to Utah. His mother was sick in bed when polygamy was publicly announced and died shortly after. Great coincidence for Brigham as she was the only one who could have contradicted their narrative. Joseph F. was then basically raised (brainwashed) by Brigham and Heber and was shocked when his cousins arrived in Utah saying that their father, his uncle, had never practiced polygamy. He went searching for evidence believing what he had been told and when he couldn't find any it was soon provided to him by many of Brigham and Heber's wives. He was convinced of a lie that not only created a divide against the children of two brothers who had been so close but also led him to go against the laws of God and teachings of both his uncle and his father.
@Wh3nth3wick3drul3
3 ай бұрын
Joseph F Smith didn't end polygamy, Wilford Woodruff did!
@freethinker1026
3 ай бұрын
@@Wh3nth3wick3drul3 Nope, it didn't end completely until Joseph F. that is why there is a second manifesto because they continued the practice after Woodruff's manifesto.
@MaryW359
3 ай бұрын
I guess Joseph F. Smith's mother is another name to add to my list of possible poisonings. So many "convenient" sick and die episodes when BY was in power. I can't wait until all truth will be made known. I love Joseph Smith and have an unshakable testimony of the BofM. Sad to see how much of the tares were sown among the wheat but allowed to remain. LDS Church is in need of cleansing. How many will have eyes to see and ears to hear?
@CleanUpCongress
3 ай бұрын
Perfect, concise summary and extremely well put!
@Wh3nth3wick3drul3
3 ай бұрын
@@freethinker1026: Because Joseph F was continuing it in Mexico and elsewhere.
@PeterBrownscouts
3 ай бұрын
If polygamy was meant to keep righteous men righteous by helping them to avoid temptation then why was John C Bennett not allowed into the insider club? Maybe you could say it was because he wasn't discreet. But then why not William Law? Supposedly he wasn't allowed to be an insider because he was also an adulterer but he was certainly discreet. These guys keep backing themselves into a corner.
@Surefoundation504
3 ай бұрын
Great point.
@cdmbcgm
3 ай бұрын
@Surefoundation504 that isn't even why patriarchal marriage was practiced. Why was Jacob's patriarchal wives ok but not Esau Hittite wives (plural). Why was David's wives ok but not the concubine Bethsheba? Who he later married. Note: the priesthood took away David's other wives when he look his concubine Bethsheba. Why does no one talk about Emma's second husband taking a concubine.then on her death bed asking him to make her an honest woman. How about the monogamist Christians that came to Utah and had gripes with Brigham Young becuase he wouldn't allow whore houses. A place that did have whore houses was Corinne Utah and Brigham young cursed it.
@TureRealD
2 ай бұрын
So Joseph Smith was just a liar for years? Deceiving the members saying he wasn't practicing polygamy and even condemned it, but that was all a lie? God can give Joseph revelations while lying to everyone? Is that sincerely what you believe? @@cdmbcgm
@tennisgirl57
3 ай бұрын
Thank you so much for the research you are doing! God led me to you after praying to learn truth, polygamy hadn't even crossed my mind as something I needed to study. My eyes have been opened!
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
Thank you! ❤️
@loveandacademics
2 ай бұрын
Thanks for your donation!
@susie0884
3 ай бұрын
Loved Jeremy's comment and question about the effect on current marriages.
@jjhardy2000
3 ай бұрын
One of the quotes says something like- women should not connect themselves to anyone who can’t save them- and I was like YES! What every woman and man needs is to be connected to JESUS CHRIST, as He is the only one who can save anyone. Amen.
@lisa143justin
3 ай бұрын
In the spring of 2022, a group of the Relief Society sisters and I went to Time Out for Women in NC...a 3 hour drive from where we live. At the event, a friend of mine bought the book, "What About Polygamy?" (I think that's what is called...). This was during the time when I was desperately seeking to understand and be ok with polygamy. I didn't even know that polygamy not being of God was even a possibility. Anyway, I asked if I could read it on the way home. While reading it, I came across a quote from Orson Pratt saying something to the effect that polygamy was necessary otherwise men would succumb to prostitution. I was literally so disgusted that I actually threw the book back at my friend. Lol It was such a knee jerk reaction. Then I cried for the next hour... so embarrassing. The ladies in the car were shocked I was having such a strong reaction to polygamy. 😅
@loveandacademics
2 ай бұрын
good for you
@nadingos
3 ай бұрын
Brian’s claim of “key holders” not stating why polygamy was instituted and denying that they ever claimed it was necessary for exaltation, was just thoroughly scorched. Brian, if you read my comment, please know that my heart wraps around you. I used to believe this massive lie, about polygamy originating with Joseph/commanded by God, as well. But, if you humble yourself and actually dig a bit deeper with honesty, you will also discover that Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma all preached and practiced monogamy in all instances. Once you come to know this, an excitement and peace will replace the darkness that you now espouse. We were all duped by a skilled secret combination, but it’s time to clear out the lies and accept the truth. We’ll all be blessed for it! Best wishes.
@loveandacademics
2 ай бұрын
yes
@GaryLArnell
3 ай бұрын
Easily one of the top five episodes in this podcast. Going to the sources and letting them speak for themselves - and contrasting them with how we speak of polygamy now - is breathtaking. I think, for example, of Elder Cook’s outdoor single adult broadcast where he kept punting all the hard questions to the female historian and how he said, in effect, “the feeling among the leaders of the church today is that polygamy served it’s purpose, but isn’t needed today.” This whole episode was about the “purpose” of polygamy as taught by those who lived it and led the church. If those were truly the reasons and were given by God, shouldn’t the church be advocating for the return of polygamy in this age where sexual immorality is far more rampant and marriage laws are far looser? p.s. the insight on John Taylor’s “revelation” was the very definition of irony. Amazing! Fantastic job by all three of you.
@jrtodd-br4zc
3 ай бұрын
Jeff Holland is too learned to plead ignorance. His tongue is forked. Following him (or any man or women) will damn you.
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
@SheriChampneysWOW..... You're firm in your conviction and you're allowed that right. But holy cow to go on such attack weaponizing Elder Holland, making manipulative anti comments because people are defending Joseph Smith seems weird. Look....if we're wrong, God will destroy us. Simple as that🤷♀️. I'd rather be able to shake Joseph's hand knowing I wasn't one of the enemies angel Moroni was talking about. If Joseph had loads of wives then We'll say "oops" we were wrong. But if he never did and we made up and believed all the lies told about him agaist his own word then I would shrink in shame😔. I'd rather be on the safe side myself where, innocent until proven guilty by first hand evidence or DNA. Brian Hales obsession with who and how many Joseph slept with is psychotic
@jrtodd-br4zc
3 ай бұрын
I’m glad you acknowledge the lds institution leaders still actively teach polygamy today. Props to you for not being dishonest about that. They are certainly someone’s “chosen”.
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
@SheriChampneysThen you stand where you feel you should. No one is taking that away from you. I heard the talks you're speaking of and those messages had nothing to do with polygamy. Our leaders do not teach polygamy. Why don't you try Bruce R McConkie who said God will allow false doctrine within and without the church as a form of sifting as it's our job to pray and know the infinite character of God. How about Spencer W Kimball who warned to avoid the false doctrines early leaders? You ever look into those? How about Elder Ballard who said.....if you want to leave the church because of church history., stick around long a new inspired insight or revelation shed new light on an issue. Remember, the Restoration is not an event, but it continues to unfold...CONTINUES TO UNFOLD. Anyway.... no need to be verbally abusive. We'll be destroyed so you can sit in your throne knowing you were right.
@jrtodd-br4zc
3 ай бұрын
Jesus Christ defined His church in your own (claimed) scriptures. “Those who repent and come unto me, the same is my church”. I’m an active member of THAT church. I have need of repentance all the time.
@DerekPayne1791
3 ай бұрын
Wow! The work you all are doing will bless generations to come.
@DJ-jf8ts
3 ай бұрын
We're coming up on 180 years since the martyrdom in a couple weeks. I don't think it's an accident that more and more information comes to light to help us do a 180 and see things in a new way.
@annsertrue8782
3 ай бұрын
What an awesome thought, thank you for sharing that.
@ZakkiLowe
3 ай бұрын
"And this is the doozy." Hahaha. That part made me laugh. I'm like, so wait, that wasn't already the doozy? 😂 The more I hear, the more my mind boggles with disgust. Finally, all this stuff is popping up, so we can see just how sick it was.
@jjhardy2000
3 ай бұрын
At 29:00, All the men were righteous?? Most of Jacob’s sermon was him getting after the men because they were prideful and breaking the hearts of their wives and children…
@jrtodd-br4zc
3 ай бұрын
I’ll go ahead and use it since they do: The “truth deniers” can’t be bothered with reality.
@jrtodd-br4zc
3 ай бұрын
“So in other words, all you men who want to run around and commit adultery, let’s just call them your wives and now you’re not sinning”. Whitney Horning Are there even words to describe this level of blinding Truth?! If there are, I can’t find them.
@loveandacademics
2 ай бұрын
Yes, great quote by Whitney
@Kristy_not_Kristine
3 ай бұрын
The comparison (towards the end) of 132 and John Taylor's "revelation" was fantastic!
@cherylclute4981
2 ай бұрын
Great podcast, we’re loving these discussions with the three of you!!! Thanks for all the research and hardwork you all have done! ❤❤❤
@loveandacademics
2 ай бұрын
yes, and I would like another one with you 3 and Gwenolyn Wyne.
@harryepstein3629
3 ай бұрын
The dream team strikes again! I love it! So funny and humorous too--- you just gotta laugh at it all--- well-delivered folks--- brian hale, I don't think so!
@Kristy_not_Kristine
3 ай бұрын
Whitney is exactly right 1:31:04. There was a time i was considering the church was off the rails because of this issue and that they shouldn't have given in for statehood. I know people who joined polygamist groups, and it does go back, for me at the time and for them, that we believed the lies about Joseph... it creates cognitive dissonance to realize the church would lie about its own founder to hold onto gain (money, power, sex). Now i understand and can see they've been off the rails since Brigham.
@rowleskids
3 ай бұрын
These quotes are crazy. I'm having some trouble finding the sources though. Could you put them in the description?
@Esty120
3 ай бұрын
These kind of statements are still being made today! I went on a date with a LDS guy, it wasn’t going well… He said to me, “ Maybe you’ll get lucky, polygamy will come back and you’ll have a chance to get married”!
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
NOOOO! That is TERRIBLE!! Ugh!! But it is a fantastic example to see what this abominable false doctrine creates. Thank you for sharing!
@Esty120
3 ай бұрын
@@MichelleBStone I thought you’d enjoy that one!🤪 I have another. I was a senior in high school. I was in a photography class. My male teacher was LDS. I was chatting with him about my extra credit. He some how worked into the conversation I needed to read D&C 132. He said, “ You’ll be living this law”! Gross!! Now I know why I haven’t remarried! Thanks for all you are doing Michelle!❤️
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
@Esty120😖😝You and me both sister. I was married to a very abusive man for 20 years and couldn't wait for polygamy. I just knew I wanted him to have 100 wives and I would be number 100. That way I didn't have to be around at all. Then during a Sunday school class the teacher read something from the manual that said unless men are good to their wives the wives can choose another. I was like.....peace! I'm out! ✌🤣 Been divorced for 10 years and haven't been on a single date. I've been asked but eww.... gross 😵 Can't believe you had a professor say that to you. Talk about no dignity
@Esty120
3 ай бұрын
@@StompMom5 wow so similar!😊 I remember thinking as a 17 year old, he’s thinking I’d make a good second wife! Polygamy has ruined so many LDS men.
@iDad7276
3 ай бұрын
Oh good god!
@TerriTurvy
3 ай бұрын
Pres Hinckley made a point of stating that only a very small percentage of members practiced polygamy. However, after hearing all these quotes from church leaders when polygamy was established, Hinckley was deceitful with his answer. It is obvious that the Church needs to come clean. All those quotes really put the temple in a terrible light; their statements indicate that the temple was used as a cult icon. The priesthood and keys are also used in this cult. So, incredibly disgusting. In fact, it seems that all our doctrine comes from these cultish beliefs.
@freethinker1026
3 ай бұрын
How do the quotes contradict what Hinkley said? All they do is prove that the majority of the members knew that polygamy was wrong, despite Brigham's lies.
@TerriTurvy
3 ай бұрын
Hinckley knew what he was saying; he knew the truth. He was downplaying the abominable polygamy doctrine. He could have helped the church repent of the doctrine instead of glossing over it with saying that only a small percentage practiced it
@SummerAdamsdotcom
3 ай бұрын
Amen sister! Preach!
@freethinker1026
3 ай бұрын
@@TerriTurvy He had his hands full heling the church repent of MMM and may not have wanted to take on another huge endeavor. But more than likely it was because Hinkley was a huge Brigham fan. I am curious as to how you know Hinkley knew the truth?
@TerriTurvy
3 ай бұрын
@@freethinker1026 what church leader didn't? He had been involved with the church leadership for decades. He had to have known the real history, or enough of it to question. Downplaying by saying that only a very small percentage practiced it sounds to me like he knew enough. But, you are right, I am making an assumption. BTW, what is MMM?
@kathybence
3 ай бұрын
Thank you for stressing that Brian is enabling the polygamists. Current polygamists can look to Brian's support and to the largest polygamous church, the LDS church, the one that has 132 as part of their cannon. They can say that even the LDS church believes it. The LDS are just too unrighteous to live it. How sad that the LDS church and Brian indirectly enable this harmful lifestyle.
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
That is perfectly stated. That is exactly what is happening.
@adamwineera
3 ай бұрын
Thank you for proving such critical points.. truths that need to come to the light..
@PilatesAnne
3 ай бұрын
Brian Hales said no reason was given by leaders because he means no valid reason was given by leaders. The reason given in 132 and by BY was “to build up seed into God.” I was also taught this through out my youth. The descendants of polygamists are therefore more righteous. I was even in an Ed week class where the speaker had all the descendants of polygamists stand. He instructed, “Look around you. All who are standing are more righteous.” His point was that this purpose was ridiculous. He did however conclude that no reason makes sense except that God commanded it. If polygamy apologists claim to believe 132, they have to conclude that polygamy produced more righteous seed. I am Anne Packer, descendant from 9 grandmothers who were polygamist. Anyone who believes 132 must acknowledge that I am more righteous.
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
😅I'm a descendant of BY(gross) so therefore I must be the MOST righteous💪🤣
@PilatesAnne
3 ай бұрын
I knew I had a connection to you. We’ve got to meet.
@Esty120
3 ай бұрын
You two are hilarious!😂
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
@@PilatesAnneDefinitely 😅👌. We can discuss our ancestor sister wives and sell it to Hollywood 🤣🤣
@nostoppingit7243
3 ай бұрын
Love Jeremy Hoop
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
He's great!
@Triumphantday
3 ай бұрын
After hearing all these quotes, it's clear that polygamy is very male centric. That a woman's exaltation into the celestial Kingdom is very dependent on a male in polygamy. So when I think of that and I look at how things are done in the temple, and how things were done in the temple, how do I know that the temple ceremony everything in there, the covenants, the symbolic things we do, how do I know that it is legitimate? Because it all seems the center around these very things are talking about. Only men at the veil to recieve you into the celestial room. Women used to have to veil their faces as if we're not good enough, the endowment is presided over by a male. Etc etc. it seems like the hole endowment and all the other Temple ceremonies are all based around... polygamy? Oh my. Help 😳
@deborahbeeton3634
3 ай бұрын
41:10. Michelle’s quote of Orson Pratt is unbelievable. “ we have our fallen nature to grapple with… “. so we can use polygamy?
@Uke1111-to8xj
3 ай бұрын
Right! And Jesus taught us to abandon the things of the world and overcome our human nature with his help. Yet, somehow polygamy is not one of them. Lol. Women on the other hand, need to learn humility by observing polygamy. Men I guess can get a leeway.
@TheRealHawkeye
3 ай бұрын
Outstanding episode Michelle!
@poohandtigger
2 ай бұрын
Thank you for talking about this topic. Nobody wants to discuss polygamy. I get patted on the head and told not to worry about it. Then I am told this is an eternal subject! Why not worry about it! I do not want to be a second-class celestial being. I think it is important to teach people to be critical thinkers. Being critical thinkers will help members stay away from superstitions and cultural beliefs that are not part of church doctrine. Thank you for giving me more to look at concerning this topic.
@KellyKoerper
3 ай бұрын
The fact that, by my calculation, only about 5% of eligible priesthood holders participated in polygamy during its halcyon days. Why? The same reason members refused the “safe and effective” mRNA shot. Despite having a get-out- of-jail card for adding wives, including much younger women, 95% of men had nothing to do with it because they thought it was wrong and stayed faithful to the “wife of their youth”.
@DerekPayne1791
3 ай бұрын
The problem with that narrative is that, 75-80% of the leadership were polygamists, not 5-20. These men were marrying every 12-16 year old they could find. The percentage is skewed because most of the boys/young men were left without opportunities to marry at all.
@KellyKoerper
3 ай бұрын
@@DerekPayne1791 Hi Derek. I think you misunderstood my point. I realize that about 80% of the leadership practiced polygamy. Only about 5% of the total priesthood holders had more than one wife. I think we need to try to answer the question as to why more men did not participate. My theory of the case is because they disagreed with the policy. Just like members today disagreed with so many of the Church’s political bedfellows, investment partners, slobbering tolerance culture, etc. The Lord set up a disseminated priesthood, along with the Gift of the Holy Ghost, to server as check to leadership. We are a Church that is supposed to be governed by consent. I am thankful for the faithful members of the Church during the polygamy season, as well as the members today, who stay faithful to our covenants, keeping our eye on the big picture that the Restoration brings. The incorrect policies of the past and present that did not, or will not pass the test of time, will not result in the Gospel being removed from the Earth because of the faithful members who show tolerance, forbearance and a forgiving towards our leaders who make policy blunders.
@jrtodd-br4zc
3 ай бұрын
As far as the “argument” (it’s too weak to be called that in my view) that polygamy is to better keep the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth: Jesus Christ has recently, in His own Voice, clarified that it was literally MONOGAMOUS marriage that was the one and only mechanism TO multiply and replenish the earth. Monogamous marriage WAS AND IS the command to multiply and replenish the earth. The teaching that polygamy is to multiply and replenish the earth is literally the father of lies trying to spit in Christ’s face and distort reality and prevent our joy. The idea polygamy is to multiply annd replenish is an idea that is an abominable perversion of something very very Holy.
@ericredd5590
3 ай бұрын
The Church’s narrative is leading thousands away from the church Brian Hales is not an apostle or prophet. Put the blame where it belongs. The line of authority of the church instituted polygamy, accepted it, taught it, reveres it and teaches it will exist in the eternities. Either way we are all one prophet away from the origins of polygamy. The restored church died with JS, and I do not see how you salvage anything in modern Mormonism.
@queenbee18183
3 ай бұрын
Agree
@kencard6657
3 ай бұрын
Your right. The church and baptisms for the dead with D&C 124.
@PrimaNet1830
3 ай бұрын
This is great research. Thank you.
@jrtodd-br4zc
3 ай бұрын
@32 min: “Is that why Willard Richard’s was 300 lbs?” Jeremy you are a special and magical person.
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
LOL
@jaredvaughan1665
3 ай бұрын
Great job Michelle shooting 🔫 down polygamist apologetics. I'm glad you did not focus on who started it in this episode. But why it was such an illogical doctrine to begin with regardless of who started it. Which bypasses the fruitless 140 year old LDS - RLDS arguement about which fallible being started it. Ignoring the main point: It misinterpreted and ignored the Book of Mormon and basic logic. And was wrong no matter which fallible being(s) started it.
@oneclimbs
3 ай бұрын
Hales saying that we don’t know why polygamy seems kind of odd when it appears that the reason is already baked into D&C 132 “for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.” (52) Seems like the reasoning is clear, to prove people as Abraham. But if that’s the case, shouldn’t Jacob 2:30 read instead: “For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, prove my people as Abraham…”
@Uke1111-to8xj
3 ай бұрын
Except it was a sacrifice only for women. A sacrifice is not a sacrifice if you are not losing something valuable. In this "Abrahamic test", it seems men didn't lose anything but gained. Polygamy was all about power and exaltation if you read what they taught in the early church.
@loveandacademics
2 ай бұрын
@@Uke1111-to8xjMen in polygamy lose a lot. The first thing is that they have a spiritual death. The next is the trust and love of their wives. The next is their love and trust relationship with their children. The next is their love abd trust by society.
@doterraoilmom
2 ай бұрын
Excellent discussion, and food for thought! Thank you! I was left wanting to hear more from the guests, and will be looking them up!
@roddejel4751
2 күн бұрын
These teachings never added up. Unfortunately Brian Hales pride might stop home from apologizing for promoting the faith destroying narrative. Those of us who search for truth have had to humble ourselves and will need to do so even more in the future, because of the many things we have repeated and taught for even born false testimonies to others of things we find were false. It hard, but it is the right thing to do as we have all found out by those promptings we feel when something needs correction.
@lisa143justin
3 ай бұрын
2nd Nephi 9: 34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.
@lisa143justin
3 ай бұрын
This scripture kept coming to mind as I listened to this episode. Btw... this isn't directed towards Michelle, Jeremy, or Whitney.
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
BINGO!!💥☄⚡ Interesting that Michelle, Jeremy and Whitney are defending Joseph, the very founder of our church using his own words while others are foaming of the mouth😅
@spence1501
2 ай бұрын
Slam dunk!!! You ladies and Gent nailed it!!! I would love to be a fly on the wall watching Brian's reaction as he watches this episode...
@Heartsinmelody
3 ай бұрын
Current tally: Michelle 132, Brian 0
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
Love this! 😂
@krz250
3 ай бұрын
Thanks!
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
Thank you! ❤
@kellywilson8322
3 ай бұрын
Michelle, doesn't youtube take a chunk of any money donated to you? Is there another way to donate without going through youtube?
@PilatesAnne
3 ай бұрын
Venmo
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
@@kellywilson8322 Yes, Venmo is great. Thank you!
@Wh3nth3wick3drul3
3 ай бұрын
The Lord's servants have not always practiced it! One wife and concubines ye shall have none!
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
Links to sources are added! (I'm still waiting for Jeremy and Whitney to send me theirs, but I've included all of mine, plus The Seer.)
@teribishop995
3 ай бұрын
If the leadership give up the philosophies of polygamy and denounce Brigham Young then president Nelson and president Oaks would have to take an account that their second marriage is only good till death🤷♀️ they aren't going to like that along with many other men who have taken on multiple wives after divorce or death. Also if we denounce BY for the creep he was, then what happens to the University? They would need to rename
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
I don't know that that would be a bad thing ;)
@teribishop995
3 ай бұрын
So question my husband was sealed to his first wife they got divorced and then he and I were sealed. So if all the sealing stuff is hogwash, no worries. But if it isn't then my husband is considered a polygamist🤪
@loveandacademics
2 ай бұрын
A new name for the university could be "The University Built Up for the Love of Men." That's how I see that University.
@Wh3nth3wick3drul3
3 ай бұрын
Yes, Orson Pratt talks about polygamy in Journal of Discourses volume 1
@joyfulsurety
3 ай бұрын
Thank you for your work!
@mackcjej
3 ай бұрын
Does anyone have an explanation for monogamous eternal marriage when someone remarries after their spouse dies? Do they have to choose between two spouses in the eternities? I find the idea of polygamy repulsive, but I'm still confused about this scenario.
@LadyPoet06
3 ай бұрын
Women have to choose between husbands…so should men!
@Zeett09
3 ай бұрын
My understanding is that the husband does not choose. The two wives are eternal sister wife’s. Eternal polygamy. I’ve never been LDS but my father in law is an eternal polygamist. He was very anxious to rush into the eternal sealing with wife #2 much to the chagrin of the family. But it was wife #2 that pushed for the eternal polygamy sealing. I don’t get it.
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
This is hands down the most complicated and troubling part of the idea of eternal marriage. I haven't ever seen an answer better than, trust the Lord. The one thing I do feel we need to recognize, however, is that it should be the same for both men and women. Widows shouldn't be treated differently than widowers From Hyrum Smith's April 8th 1844 speech, It seems the idea was that either men or women would have one eternal spouse that they were sealed to. I think my preference would be to allow both men and women to be sealed to multiple spouses if their first spouse passes away, with the understanding that they both need to just trust God -- instead of only telling women that while assuming that men will be eternal polygamists.
@mackcjej
3 ай бұрын
@@Zeett09 That's the traditional LDS view, but admittedly the idea makes me uncomfortable. At the same time, though, what if a husband (as an example) did have a second wife due to the first one dying, and he had a deep love for the second wife as well. That doesn't seem fair for the husband or either wife to be separated in the afterlife. The same scenario is also confusing if it's the wife who had two or more husbands over the course of her lifetime.
@HistoricalMonogamyDoctrine
3 ай бұрын
There are differing opinions on this. Hyrum Smith's opinion was that he would have both his late wife Jerusha and his subsequent wife Mary as his wives in heaven, (while condemning any idea of having two simultaneous wives on Earth). Others believe that we will only have eternal progeny with one eternal bond mate. For those who have been sealed to more than one spouse, let's say a man, he would become an eternal pair with whichever one of hus wives he is most compatible with eternally; whichever one he progressed further with spiritually or is otherwise more suitable to be with forever. It would all be arranged under agency and mutual consent, with every party ending up with whomever is most mutually compatible with themselves. Under this reasoning, those who have been sealed in marriage to someone who did not keep their marriage covenants (adultery, abuse, etc) will have opportunity to have their sealing transferred to a worthy person. Those who were sealed in marriage to someone who ends up with a different bond mate will have their sealing transferred to someone who is ultimately more compatible for them.
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
BLACK CAT🤩🤩🤩🤩. My black kitty is all snug on my lap while watching this. They're the SWEETEST!
@Sallygirl111
3 ай бұрын
At minute 44:30 Michelle hands Whitney a drink 😂
@forkedupart
3 ай бұрын
thats actually hilarious
@karenhyatt647
3 ай бұрын
😂😂😂
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
🤣
@stevereedatx
3 ай бұрын
LOL
@Kristy_not_Kristine
3 ай бұрын
Ha! I was listening, not watching, at that point, so I went back to see:) good catch, thanks for sharing. This is a heavy topic, so laughter is great
@allthingsarepossiblethruchrist
3 ай бұрын
Excellent job 👏
@stevenevenett
3 ай бұрын
Loved hearing all these sources! Thank you for finding and sharing. Any chance links could be made available? 🙏
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
They're there now 🙂
@Wulingshi
3 ай бұрын
Great podcast Michelle. What is your relationship to the LDS church? On its website in the gospel topics essays and on Family Search it lists polygamous wives for Joseph Smith. If you are right then it is wrong about polygamy. - Edit: I'm sorry. I don't mean to offend, but this topic is so fascinating because I have Utah acquaintances with a wide range of polygamy beliefs: ex-member polygamy haters, member Joseph Smith polygamy deniers, members that believe polygamy is gone forever, members that believe polygamy is gone for now, members that secretly practice polygamy (super creepy), and ex-members that practice polygamy. That probably doesn't capture everyone. My admittedly limited understanding is that the church officially teaches that polygamy started with Joseph Smith and is gone for now but will be back after death.
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
Brian Hales has written several books on polygamy so he very much depends on that narrative. He's the author of gospel topic essays that's full of BS
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
I am an active member of the LDS church and fully intend to remain so. I simply disagree on a few key points.
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
It must have been so hard to be a member back then knowing the gospel is true but the "prophet" served the devil.
@ThomasFackrell
3 ай бұрын
Brian needs to go read some Ogden Kraut if he wants a sense of what polygamists believe about the teachings of the “key holders”
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
I didn't make the connection with ogden kraut. Now. I'm excited to go look it up again.
@timoaks1372
3 ай бұрын
@@MichelleBStone What I got out what I read from kraut was that polygamy was good because many of the good guys in the Bible did it. As I was pondering that the thought came clearly to my mind, these men are not to be your standard of righteousness. Christ is our standard and the only one that can save us.
@loveandacademics
2 ай бұрын
@@timoaks1372good thought
@ericredd5590
3 ай бұрын
Why do you blame John Dehln and LHP and not place polygamy directly on the LDS church? The church started the lies according to you and they persist in them and you always stop short of adding them to your condemnation of polygamy believers.
@rocketzero2103
3 ай бұрын
Michelle has mentioned numerous times that she believes the institution can repent. Which is true, it can. But it would be _very_ difficult for a to do so.
@Kristy_not_Kristine
3 ай бұрын
You must not have been listening for long
@elizabethh9764
3 ай бұрын
Still near the beginning, but I loved what you shared about how learning that polygamy is not of God has actually strengthened your marriages. This has been my experience as well. Thank you🙏 Those quotes🫣. I've been reading some of these talks from Orson Pratt, BY, John Taylor, etc.. and they are absolutely toxic. Is there a chance we could ask you to post the sources for the quotes you shared from early leaders? I've not heard some of them before.
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
Yes, I will do that as soon as I can. I should have already, but completely forgot. Thanks for the reminder!
@elizabethh9764
3 ай бұрын
Thank you Michelle, Whitney and Jeremy! I so appreciate you bringing these to light!
@Wh3nth3wick3drul3
3 ай бұрын
The thing is, Orson Pratt talks about having many wives. Jacob 2, which is from God speaks against many wives! So Orson Pratt directly contradicts God via Doctrine and Covenants 5:4.
@rationalnuggets9617
2 ай бұрын
1:30:23 do you not think it’s possible some of the leaders at some point were not part of the conspiracy but simply believe, like many members do, that polygamy came from God through Joseph Smith?
@JohnEvans-xw6qk
3 ай бұрын
It takes the priesthood of Eljah according to LDS theology to seal for eternity for a monogamous marriage or a plural marriage. As far as priesthood key holders the LDS church it could have only been Joseph Smith . This is absolutely proved in a quote by Joseph Smith in DHC 2:432 before DC 110 where they say Elijah appeared. DHC 2: 432 which was before DC 110 Joseph Smith stated that he had completed the organization of the church, and that there were no further ceremonies or ordinances. The salt Lake church could not possibly have the sealing keys because of this.
@SirKn1ght47
2 ай бұрын
8:49 Wait, how do you see polygamy specifically being part of Lehi being driven out? It wasn’t until he testified of Christ that he was driven out with death threats.
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
The Book of Mormon gives several indications of this. Lehi was hated because he testified of the wickedness and abominations of the people of Jerusalem (1 Nephi 1:19) warning them of destruction (vs. 13 and 19.) 1 Nephi 7:1 makes it clear that the reason Lehi was commanded to leave was so his family could "raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise" (a central part of God's covenant.) 1 Nephi 7:6, and 16:7 make it very clear that God prepared a perfect 1 to 1 ratio of husbands to wives among this new covenant people, to enable them to raise up seed unto the Lord. Jacob 2:23-24 establish that the scriptures can be misunderstood to seem to justify polygamy because of David and Solomon, which was an abomination (among that people.) Jacob 2:25 is crucial. It starts with "Wherefore" which means, for which reason, meaning, it was because of this abominable practice, and the twisting of the scriptures to justify this abominable practice, that God led Lehi and his posterity out of Jerusalem, so that God could "raise up" a righteous branch (in other words "raise up seed" in the covenant) which He could not do among a people who practiced abomination. Verses 26 and 27 tell the people that they must be different than the people in Jerusalem. Verse 29 warns of the destruction that comes upon people who practice this abomination (just as it came upon the people of Jerusalem, and the early Utah church until they abandoned polygamy.) 30 explains that when God establishes a covenant people (as He did with Lehi) he explicitly commands them so they won't use misinterpreted scriptures to justify abomination. Both verse 34 and Jacob 3:5 make it abundantly clear that God, who established a new covenant people with Lehi, also gave this explicit commandment to Lehi, just as verse 30 says He will. "34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi." "...for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father-that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them." Verses 31-32 is where this is made the most clear, "31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands. 32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts." These scriptures make it clear that the people in Jerusalem were wresting the scriptures to justify polygamy, which caused them to commit whoredoms (what Jacob calls polygamy) and caused terrible suffering among the women and children. God wanted to establish a covenant people, so he called Lehi and his family out of Jerusalem, provided for them to have one wife each to "raise up seed" in the covenant, and explicitly commanded Lehi and his people that marriage is between one man and one woman, forbidding the abomination of polygamy which causes women and children to suffer. (Thank you for asking this great question. I took time to write this out so I can have it when anybody else asks this question. I hope it made sense.)
@SirKn1ght47
2 ай бұрын
@@MichelleBStone Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me! Thanks for writing it all out like that! Now I have sources I can verify for myself (Gotta get my own second witness y’know) ; )
@jaredvaughan1665
3 ай бұрын
I think John Taylor's refusal to give up polygamy is why the Lord removed him early in favor of Wilfred Woodruff.
@Sallygirl111
3 ай бұрын
Ummm Wilford was just as bad. Giving himself 267 wives in his birthday. They are all gross
@randyjordan5521
3 ай бұрын
Woodruff was as big of a troo believer in polygamy as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and John Taylor were. The only reason Woodruff issued the Manifesto in 1890 was because the federal government threatened to disincorporate the church and seize and sell off its assets if they refused. BTW Taylor died at age 78. That's not exactly "removing him early".
@jrtodd-br4zc
3 ай бұрын
The Lord didn’t appoint either of them to anything. He was totally silent during both their reigns as “the church” was under condemnation the entire time. That condemnation was only recently removed from some few willing to admit the mistakes and repent.
@JacobIsBell
3 ай бұрын
I have put out the challenge more than once. I would love to wrestle Brian Hales, and Don Bradley both at the same time.
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
LOL, Jacob, you have to respect Don Bradly. No fair lumping him in, and no picking on him allowed. He shows up and engages and is immensely kind and respectful. I consider him a great guy and a friend. Brian on the other hand -- totally fair game. 😉
@JacobIsBell
3 ай бұрын
@@MichelleBStone I totally like Don! I’ll make tacos for him any time!!
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
@@JacobIsBellJacob.....David Alexander. Go get'm💪
@greasyhandsauto-shaunbutte9726
2 ай бұрын
Asking for money is priestcrat.
@harambeboy
3 ай бұрын
The audio is painful
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
I didn't notice anything off. Is there a problem I wasn't aware of?
@jrtodd-br4zc
3 ай бұрын
I see what you did there haramboy… The people who want the mountains to cover them at the Lord’s return will be in pain too. This video is a bigger potential blessing to you than you can now imagine. The time to repent is getting VERY short.
@cdmbcgm
3 ай бұрын
What do you get when you reject section 132? The terrestrial kingdom. President Brigham Young:: “Why do people apostatize? You know we are on the ‘Old Ship Zion.’ We are in the midst of the ocean. A storm comes on, and, as sailors say, she labors very hard. ‘I am not going to stay here,’ says one; ‘I don’t believe this is the “Ship Zion.”’ ‘But we are in the midst of the ocean.’ ‘I don’t care, I am not going to stay here.’ Off goes the coat, and he jumps overboard. Will he not be drowned? Yes. So with those who leave this Church. It is the ‘Old Ship Zion.’ Let us stay in it.” "And then he added: 'If the candle of the Almighty does not shine from this place, you need not seek for its light anywhere else.'" "And then this mighty man in Israel declared:" “Whenever there is a disposition manifested in any of the members of the Church to question the right of the President of the whole Church to direct in all things, you see manifested evidences of apostasy-of a spirit which, if encouraged, will lead to a separation from the Church and to final destruction; wherever there is a disposition to operate against any legally appointed officer of this Kingdom, no matter in what capacity he is called to act, if persisted in, it will be followed by the same results.” So spoke President Brigham Young. (Discourses of Brigham Young [Deseret Book Co., 1943], pp. 82-83, 85.) (Salvation comes through the church by Mark E Peterson) Notice: our church leaders don’t have a problem with Brigham young. Historians don’t have a problem with Brigham Young. Just those that set themes up to be a Light to others. When one teach doctrine that is contrary to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints then that is priestcraft. Teaching that the temples celestial marriage is false and the endowment is false, which is the basis for our covenants with God and exaltation, is clearly priestcraft. 3 Nephi 21: 19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away. 20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;
@paulgregersen3570
3 ай бұрын
Thank God for polygamy. The entire house of Israel was born from polygamy including Jesus the son of polygamist David. Our best LDS leaders today.
@davidmyers2407
3 ай бұрын
Jesus was born from a VIRGIN, how much more ANTI-sex can He be?
@Washingtontree
3 ай бұрын
I think he could've gotten those things done without polygamy because, after all, He is God.
@cherylb5953
3 ай бұрын
@@Washingtontree But yet it did come from polygamy so how can it be the total abomination that it is painted on this channel?
@jennyforyourthoughts
3 ай бұрын
Jesus also came from the union of Judah and Tamar (his daughter in law) while she was pretending to be a harlot. Jesus also came from Ruth, who was the result of the incestuous union of Lot and his daughters. By your logic, then those abominations are also justified because Jesus came from them. 🤦♀️ God didn’t NEED polygamy to establish the house of Israel. He didn’t NEED 12 tribes. He could’ve just used Joseph and Benjamin to continue His covenant, as He did with Isaac or Jacob. The Lord said he can raise up seed from stones; he doesn’t need polygamy to do it.
@paulgregersen3570
3 ай бұрын
But the big picture is that Jesus needed to be the son of David. Not the son of Moses or Joseph. The lineage of the 12 tribes make up Israel and Joseph from Genesis 49 was to be the birthright tribe. Rachel needed to be Joseph's mother not Lea. She sacrificed her life to complete the 12 tribes by dieing at child birth. She is the symbol of the church today as the woman in heaven with 12 stares as her crown and glory of Israel. The symbol of the bride of Christ. She represents the moon. Genesis 37-9-11. Christ married symbolically Jacobs polygamist bride. The harvest moon. Meaning God's harvest today of the earth to his church bride. The LDS church is his bride. Joseph her son authorized the harvest for Christ. The birthright son. The church had to start out with polygamy to be a restored polygamist bride with 12 stars or 12 apostles representing 12 tribes. The harvest of mankind at his coming to his bride. Link utube (Book of Abraham 7) by Paul gregersen to get there. k@@jennyforyourthoughts.
@Hawkquill
3 ай бұрын
It's this simple we as LDS are followers of Jesus Christ. So if Jesus Christ asks us to do it then we should, if He dose not ask us to do it we should not. But whatever He's says I will do. He also says whether by my mouth or the mouth of my servants it is the same. So now we have to find out who is Christ servant and who's not! Is Brigham a servant of Christ? If he's not what dose it say about our church? Is it still true or did truth end with the death of Joseph? Would you class Isaiah as a prophet or servant of Christ? As Isaiah had a vision of the mellenium and this is what he saw; Isaiah 4:1-2 1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. 2 In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. Why will it be glorious? Is it because every woman will now be able to be married to a God fearing man, unlike now? After all you do out number us. Here you have seven women taking hold of one man, not one man taking hold of seven women. Why are these women hassling this one man and trying their best to make it as easy as possible for him to marry them as that's how women get our name, by saying we will make our own bread and wear our own apparel? Because it's a guy's job to provide for his wife or wives. Seven women is not easy for one man to provide for. So why have these women approached him? That might be found in Isaiah 13:12 talking of the last days similar time; 12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. In Isaiah 24:6 6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. Also in part of John Taylor's vision of the last days; I saw the road full of people, mostly women, with just what they could carry in bundles on their backs, traveling to the mountains on foot. I wondered how they would get through with such a small pack on their backs. It was remarkable to us that there were so few men among them. So men will be few and as precious as gold, now you can understand why these women are so desperate. We have a scripture which says; I the Lord God am bound when ye do what I say but if ye do not what I say ye have no promise. These sisters have made covenants or promises with God how is God going to fulfill His promise to these faithful women? So they can rejoice in their posterity if men are so few? Without authorising plural marriage? Is the Father going to break His covenant with them despite them being faithful in all things. Is it their problem there's not enough men? Can they demand the Father to keep His promise because they kept there's? Are you being selfish to keep a man all to yourself, and saying to bad to all others who are single but want children? I think there are times when plural marriage is necessary and times when it's not but if we want Celestial glory then we need to do all that Christ requires of us no matter what we fill about it. I know my Heavenly Father has asked me to do some callings that has been very out of my comfort zone, but I accepted them and in time was ok with it. Never say never as eternal life may depend on it. Our Father may only ask a few to do it I don't think it matters that much to Him as long as every faithful daughter that wants to be married is married His covenant is then fulfilled. The saints were being persecuted men were killed and sisters on their own were not safe. I hope your men stay faithful because if they don't and you become single and can't find a single man then be prepared to go through eternity single. I go to single adult events women out number men about 10 to 1 shall I tell these lovely women there's no point in them carrying on in the church? What about desperate women trying to steal Godly men from their wife, if plural marriage is not allowed. Plural marriage is only forbidden if God dose not authorize it. As wicked men will abuse it and the women they marry. To do it right you have to have high respect for all women love and care for them equally no favourites, it's why I think that only men living a very high standards can make it work. If the church taught this and you don't agree with it, why are you still here if it's all a lie? Of course men cannot be exalted without a wife how on earth is he going to produce life? The natural woman in general are more Christ like than the natural men, they are loving, kind , caring compassionate, these attributes men have to learn they are not part of the average man's nature. Again it's why more women will gain Celestial glory therefore how dose God deal with the imbalance? They are leaving the church because of you! You are causing a devide! If we abuse anything God gives us then he will take it away. Israel lost the promised land through not keeping the commandments and becoming like other nations. We are not building the Temple in Jackson county Missouri because we are still not united for if ye are not one ye are not mine! It's people like yourself is the reason we are not one! 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: You are right! Gods laws do not change, but here's the thing WE CHANGE and we are sometimes worthy of God's blessings and sometimes not so, then they are taken away. Remember when Moses came down the mountain with the laws of God that would bring them also into God's presence. He seen them worshiping the golden calf, Moses then smashed what he had as the people were not ready to receive it. He then went back up the mountain to get a different law of carnel commandments and we're only to have the Aaronic priesthood . God wants us to have it all but through disobedience things get taken away. When I was investigating the church I did not like plural marriage it felt like cheating if you tell one woman you love her and then say the same to another. One day pondering this God spoke to me direct saying have you not got four children and do you not love them all equally? Of course the answer was yes! So could I not love four women equally to the point they were happy and content like my children? Just one more thing to say, remember what happened to the man that tried steadying the ark, he died. The ark of God or the church dose not need steadying by men or women that's our Heavenly Fathers job!!
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
Oh my goodness.... how are people getting this 7 women to one man so wrong? That was a parable for the millennium. Seven means whole, complete, perfect, finished etc... that scripture means the the seven branches of the church and the one man means Christ. It does not mean man in the flesh will have seven wives🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. I love the way guys decide what scripture means. You have to read the context, then cross reference etc.... I'm sure you'll disagree but people tend to only read pieces of scripture then take that little piece and turn it into something that's not even in the ballpark. I studied this many times throughout my life and never once ready that it was literally polygamy 😅
@jaredvaughan1665
3 ай бұрын
I'd like to hear more from polygamy deniers that accept that Joseph originated 132 and practiced it. As long as your premise is "polygamy is bad because Joseph didn't do it" you subconsciously accept the premise that if Joseph did do it then it was of God. This puts Joseph on a Godlike pedestal and elevates polygamy as valid. Since the overwhelming evidence (starting with the Expositor Affidavits) shows Joseph did write 132 and practiced it.
@sdfotodude
3 ай бұрын
When circular reasoning meets confirmation bias and Religious trauma.
@jrtodd-br4zc
3 ай бұрын
Accepting the fact Jesus Christ praised Joseph isn’t placing him on a “Godlike pedestal”. It’s having confidence Jesus Christ doesn’t lie. Saying “Polygamy denier” doesn’t make you sound like you think it does. I could call you a “truth denier” just as easily.
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
Why not actually listen to the episode and respond to the evidence and topics in it? More and more you reveal the perspective you have always had, and what your motives have always been.
@jaredvaughan1665
3 ай бұрын
@@MichelleBStone I did not always have this perspective. I wanted to believe Joseph was not a polygamist. And for 2 months your channel convinced me he was not. (As I showed through my numerous comments.) Until I ran into the brick wall of the Nauvoo Expositor Affidavits. And studied the overwhelming evidence since then that supports Joseph wrote 132. Michelle resurrecting the RLDS narrative that Joseph was not a polygamist based on his and Emma's public denials and ignoring hard evidence from the Nauvoo Expositor and the testimony of church leadership at the time regarding Joseph writing 132 will get you nowhere in changing polygamy church culture. In fact, you are hardening the Church's position that polygamy was of God. Because denying polygamy came through Joseph Smith implies if it did come through Joseph Smith it was of God. And since the vast majority of historical evidence shows it did come from Joseph Smith, you are unknowingly the number one promoter of polygamy out there. Which I don't think you want. I recommend taking your husband's position. Not convinced Joseph did not start it. But either way, it was not a good thing and here is 132 reasons why not. Which you are successfully doing. Unfortunately you dilute your success when you dispel logic for promoting a false narrative because you like Joseph better than Brigham.
@jrtodd-br4zc
3 ай бұрын
132 wasn’t even written in the handwriting of any of Joseph’s scribes, and is clearly a jumbled mess of multiple different topics. Whoever put that section together has no freaking clue what they were doing. “Brick wall”?! I think you might be “passed feeling”. Or at best “passed thinking”. The scriptures contain Jesus Christ’s “affidavit”. I’ll trust His witness of the heart of Joseph Smith better than the testimony of traitors. I’m legit laughing at “brick wall”. Thats comically ridiculous.
@cherylb5953
3 ай бұрын
Whoa this channel is just leading people into apostasy. I’m not that comfortable with the idea of polygamy either. But I am way more uncomfortable with publicly criticizing, former and current prophets and Presidents of the church. If there’s an issue to be corrected regarding polygamy, the First presidency will be the ones to put it right, and at the correct time and manner, not The court of public opinion. You don’t lobby God’s prophets from Y tube and in the comment section. What I see happening here is people getting so riled up they are losing their testimonies and faith in God’s appointed servants. Secondly, your stand is not biblical. If ALL polygamy was an abomination, then why did God covenant with Abraham, Isaac andJacob who were polygamists. You can argue that their marriages/families weren’t ideal but nonetheless, God’s covenant was with and through them. Everyone on this channel, please beware. Praying for you. ❤
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
When the whole world is running towards a cliff, those who are running in the opposite direction appear to have lost their minds😅😅 You all keep running towards the cliff and see where you land
@MichelleBStone
3 ай бұрын
@SheriChampneys wow. Really? Again, twisting words completely. It really is a talent to intentionally misunderstand people the way you do. Well, now you have more false fuel to share in your next conversation with my new stalker -- David Alexander. It seems he can't get enough of me. (Rather troubling actually. I hope he gets help.)
@cherylb5953
3 ай бұрын
@@MichelleBStone If she misunderstood, then it is @stompmom5’s responsibility, and prerogative to explain her words. Again, you are speaking on things for which you have no standing.
@cherylb5953
3 ай бұрын
@@StompMom5 But what are you running to? I really don’t understand the goal of this channel. Polygamy is not being practiced. Who are you saving from it currently. By undermining past prophets and presidents, you also undermine the current ones. Almost every third comment I read on this channel is at least in part about how the current presidency are not legitimate, at least fully, because of their heritage or because of their complicity. If weakening peoples testimonies is not the goal here, it is surely very unfortunate side effect.
@Esty120
3 ай бұрын
Bless your heart! Please do some thorough research before you throw stones!
@paulgregersen3570
3 ай бұрын
Thank God for Brigham Young he fulfilled Isaiah prophecy that 7 women would marry one man restoring God's kingdom. Isaiah 4;1
@rocketzero2103
3 ай бұрын
Where does that scripture say "marry"? If Isaiah is to be respected, then you can't change the ordinances. Which Brigham absolutely did.
@paulgregersen3570
3 ай бұрын
@@rocketzero2103Isaiah 4:1
@rocketzero2103
3 ай бұрын
@@paulgregersen3570 yes of course, except it doesn't say "marry" at all.
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
That's actually a parable. It doesn't literally mean 7 women to one man in human form. It's about the millennium...7 being whole and one man being Christ. It's like the 10 virgins in the last days. That's also a parable. That's just how Jesus spoke.
@paulgregersen3570
3 ай бұрын
False, it doesn't read like any parable or mention Christ. It's 7 women taking the name of one man (literally) period. To remove their reproach. ( Unmarried condition)
@GADBabaganoosh
3 ай бұрын
You should delete your channel and stop apostatizing.
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
A lot of self importance in that comment, pharisees
@GADBabaganoosh
3 ай бұрын
@StompMom5 Shes simply wrong and needs to stop kicking against the pricks
@StompMom5
3 ай бұрын
@@GADBabaganooshOkay.... bring out your evidence as she has, using Joseph Smith papers provided by the church and debate her. You people are the ones who believe Joseph was an adulterer, ped○phile, and lier all in the name of God. We believe he is exactly who he said he was!
@jeantoller
2 ай бұрын
Im very curious to whether you have really read the bible. Do you not realize there were times in the bible that the Lord told them to practice Polygamy? Also have you ever read the history of the church when Joseph Smith introduced Polygamy to Brigham Young? Do you know his words? He was devastated and didnt want to do it but because he believed Joseph was a Prophet, he did it. Are you blind? Apparently so
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
Maybe you could help me. Can you please point me to where in the Bible the Lord told anyone to live polygamy. I have read it several times, but I haven't ever found that. And yes, I have read the history of the church several times, but in addition, I have gone to the original documents and read them several times as well. Brigham Young told multiple different versions of how he learned about polygamy. He did at times say Joseph taught him, and that he desired the grave. But he more often admitted that he figured it out himself when he was on his mission in England, before Joseph told him anything about it. There are many examples you can find through his sermons and teachings. Here is just one, October 8, 1866, Brigham speaking in a general conference said, "I knew the doctrine of polygamy by revelation to myself while I was in England before it was revealed to me by Joseph." There is no record anywhere of Joseph ever teaching or practicing polygamy. He continually fought it. Do you know how many documents were altered or even forged to create the original church history? Just one is the entry in "Joseph Smith's journal" for October 5, 1843. The original says, "eve at home. walked up and down st. with scribe.- and gave instruction to try those who were preaching, teaching or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives. on this Law. Joseph forbids it. and the practice thereof- No man shall have but one wife." When it was added to the official history, it was changed to say, "Evening at home, and walked up and down the streets with my scribe. Gave instructions to try those persons who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives. For according to the law I hold the keys of this power in the last days, for there is never but one on Earth at a time on whom the power and its keys are conferred- and I have constantly said No man shall have but one wife at a time unless the Lord directs otherwise." I hope you can see the importance of this one change, but it is actually just one of many such examples. I am very well aware of what the church history says, but if you dig into the actual documents, they tell a very different story.
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
Here are the links so you can look at the documents yourself. I highly recommend it. Original "journal" www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/journal-december-1842-june-1844-book-3-15-july-1843-29-february-1844/123 Draft version (where you can see the alterations being made): www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-draft-1-march-31-december-1843/143 And the finalized version recorded in the official history of the church: www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-e-1-1-july-1843-30-april-1844/118 (For some reason, the page for volume E of the history of the church is down. Hopefully it will be back up. The Joseph Smith Papers seem to have a tendency to do this.)
@jeantoller
2 ай бұрын
Some passages in the Bible describe men and women with multiple wives, including Abraham, Solomon, David, and Moses. For example, Genesis describes Abraham remarrying after Sarah's death and having three wives, while 1 Kings 11:1 says that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Numbers 12:1-10 also mentions that Moses had two wives, which caused jealousy among his relatives.
@jeantoller
2 ай бұрын
Are you sure you’ve read it 7 times? Maybe you missed that part
@MichelleBStone
2 ай бұрын
I think you misread. I said I have read it several times. "there were times in the bible that the Lord told them to practice Polygamy." I am still waiting for you to provide an example. Saying the Lord commanded polygamy is very different from simply saying some people lived polygamy. Abraham had one covenant wife, which is made clear not only in the Old Testament, but repeatedly in the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. Hagar was Sarai's slave who Sarai used as a surrogate -- according to the cultural laws of the time. That was never commanded by God and the entire story bore very bad fruit (as does every case of Old Testmant polygamy.) Hagar was never treated as or considered a wife, and then she and Ishmael were left, and Abram Sarai were given a new names. Katurah was Abraham's later concubine/wife, after Sarah's death. Moses was never a polygamist. Miriam's objection to his wife was that she was not of the proper lineage/race. God taught Miriam a painful lesson for her racism -- turning her skin white with leprosy for 7 days. Jacob 2:24 condemns David and Solomon for their polygamy, "David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord." Polygamy is forbidden and condemned multiple times throughout the Book of Mormon, and also in Deuteronomy 17:17. I know this is a big topic to get into. It is very easy to assume you have all the answers and not aware of how much more there is to study and learn. I hope you are sincere and worth the time engaging with. I hope more people will be curious and open to studying these things out and learning more. It was actually studying the scriptures that taught me the truth about polygamy. I have made episodes about each of these topics, comprehensively sharing what the scriptures teach. I appreciate your desire to stand for truth -- I hope you are as eager to make sure you thoroughly understand the truth on these topics. Even if you disagree, it is useful to know why some people see it differently so you can better know how to engage and refute errors.
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