I appreciate the passion you show for whiskey, and I am sure we all share a deep love for these products. But, feel need to clarify a few of your points: 1: Some brands source in the early years while their own distillate is aging. This helps a brand, whether revived or new, to get established and pay the bills while their own product has to wait 4+ years in a rickhouse before it can be bottled. James E Pepper is one example of that - you can visit their distillery in Lexington, KY and some of their products are their own distillate, some are sourced (and they don't hide that fact). Buzzard's Roost is another example. 2: Whiskey marketing has used all kinds of terminology to differentiate themselves over the years, but I do agree it would be easier to use one standardized set of terms. 3: Finishing and blending is an art form unto itself, and there are some brands doing some amazing things with it, some not so much. Its an expensive process, having to source the barrels, but the really talented blenders are creating some very interesting pours. On the other hand, some places (not going to mention names) might be dosing the barrels themselves to get certain non-typical flavor combinations and might be chasing the hype around "cigar blends" and other things. In the end I personally think we should just drink what tastes good, regardless of how the producer got there. 4: Distillers raising prices are trying to battle the secondary market and realize some of the profit themselves. They are businesses trying to make money, so I can't fault them for that. But Campari pushing its limited editions so high is a bit extreme. Buffalo Trace not raising prices either is a bit extreme on the other end. The problem is that the market has proven its willingness to pay these prices in a thriving secondary trade. We, the whiskey consumers, are the problem. 5: In the end, we won't see $500 limited editions forever. In time, the whiskey market will recede and contract, and the producers will have to re-evaluate pricing, production and focus their products on where they truly make their money vs. the proportionately small number of whiskey nerds like us that line up in parking lots overnight for a chance to purchase.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
You are correct I was being less than fair to many in the industry, but let me counter a few of your points. 1. I will concede I picked bad examples, ones like Espy House are more what I’m going after, and yes I do understand that newer brands do source as they start out. We as consumers need to weed that out, not every good story needs a brand of whiskey to go along with it. It’s just capitalizing on the boom and we’re being suckered into it. 2. You’re definitely right it is a marketing thing, and I guess I’m not angry at the brand so much as the TTB for allowing unregulated terms on labels. My dream would be for all whiskey labels to be treated with the same vigor as Bottled in Bond. Even if brands were forced to do something like “Holladay Rickhouse proof, a Blended Of XX barrels of Missouri Straight Bourbon at Barrel Proof”. Call it whatever you want as long as the regulated term is a part of it and distillers are held to regulation. 3. I do agree that Finishing and Blending are art forms of themselves, and there are definitely some great sourcing blenders out there: Mark from Old Carter and Dixon from 2XO are forefront to me. Even one of my favorite cheap brands in Blue Note is sourced. But there are many more brands that are just MGP/Barton sourced whiskey with nothing done to it and not carefully blended. Including the one you’re not naming but has come under fire for their practices. We need more transparency, and this goes back to the labeling for me: we need NDA’s outlawed and Distillery DSP’s on all bourbon labels. I personally do not like Barrell offerings but I applaud their labeling, same with Bardstown Bourbon Co. That’s what we need more of. 4. I get simple supply and demand and how it relates here to rising prices, HOWEVER, distilleries could do more to combat that in a way that doesn’t cause the secondary market to flourish. They could very easily start bottling 375ml, 200ml or even 50ml bottles to stretch their stocks further and help to alleviate those supply issues. I’ve seen many times where those cost raises just passed on to the secondary costs. I’d personally rather pay 70 for a 375 ml of Russell’s 13 than 150 for a 750ml. It doubles the bottles available and helps enthusiasts like us stretch their budgets further. Companies that keep raising costs are just as bad to the end product as the secondary market is to the industry. I’d MUCH rather a Buffalo Trace using their allocated products to sell lower end items than continue to pay ever rising premiums for Wild Turkey items. 5. This is true, we won’t see this forever. It is just a trend, and I do very much enjoy these types of discussion with those who love Bourbon (and Whiskey) as much as I do. Thanks for the discussion, it was definitely fun!
@umami0247
6 ай бұрын
I really don’t care about transparency if they are doing it great if they don’t great. However I do agree with the price on many of these special releases. Rumors are saying that the Rickhouse this year will be over 300 maybe even 350. I’m not sure who’s buying these for that but I know I’m not going to be one of them. I have a 150 cap on alcohol and I spent that one time for a Maccallen 18 that was marked down because the box got crushed so it was a good deal for me. Another issue I have is many are going with a 700ml and the price is the same as the 750ml. I understand the reason for the change in bottles but lower the price.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
I think we’re to the point where whiskey isn’t going down until it sits on shelves. We’ve got some weird days ahead,
@Average_BourbonDad
6 ай бұрын
While I do understand your gripes, the consumer is ultimately responsible for all of this. We chase, we pay triple MSRP, we fall for the marketing hype, the celebrity endorsements. WE are the ones that need to stop. I decided long ago not to chase and not to pay secondary. I just won’t and if more consumer stopped, you would see a change in products. There has been a discontinuation of several products recently and many more are potentially going away. And that’s due to lack of sales. I do feel more clarity on labels is needed. Mashbill, whether it’s sourced or distilled, where it’s sourced from and bottled etc. The other stuff is just marketing buzzwords that companies have always used to try to get their product bought over someone else’s. Cheers. Love the passion🥃🥃
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
You’re right, it is ultimately the voting we do with our money that allows such decisions. And I hate that stupid people with expendable income are destroying my hobby😂😂. These boomers need to get off my lawn. /s
@Average_BourbonDad
6 ай бұрын
@@GentlemenandWhiskey HAHAHA. So true. I am liking finding great shelf sitters though. So much great whiskey gets passed up.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
It’s true! From a buying perspective I’d say 90% of what I buy is limited editions and new releases, but there’s definitely some excellent bottles on shelves
@SSR_Virgo_Tiger
6 ай бұрын
This 100% We all know that we could vote with our wallets, but FOMO just has a stranglehold on too big of a percentage of the Bourbon community.
@smikebacts
6 ай бұрын
Biggest issue I have is the too much innovation is going into limited products and not to shelf available line ups.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
Agreed, it’s not trickling down into their normal offerings. And I’m seeing that more and more these top end offerings have less and less transparency.
@ericdesmarais589
6 ай бұрын
I like the enthusiasm and strong opinions. Unfortunately the true whiskey enthusiasts are the minority and not going to be catered to. I don’t have an issue reviving old brands. The average consumer has no idea about historical brands and a nice looking bottle or story on the label is a stronger marketing tool. With finishing I think climate has the biggest impact on a secondary barrels influence on the whiskey and why scotch can be aged much longer. While 8hrs is surely a gimmick, 30 days to around 6 months is probably the sweet spot for most American whiskeys. Not arguing that finishing in Stagg and Weller barrels don’t provide a marketing value, but barrel kings membership is more geared towards the whiskey enthusiast than the consumers chasing blantons.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
Climate for sure has some to do with it, but even take light whiskey into the equation here instead of scotch: it takes much longer for light whiskey to mature due to the use of used barrels. A used barrel isn’t going to impart that barrel influence that quickly. Multiple years, maybe. But for sure not in hours, days, or even months. If they’re not fully dumping the barrel (I like to call that the Good Times special), then I can see it influencing taste.
@ericdesmarais589
6 ай бұрын
@@GentlemenandWhiskey You hit the nail on the head with aging in used barrels. I put aging and finishing into separate categories. With finishing your pulling out the remaining liquid from the staves to impart that flavor on the whiskey as opposed to aging where it’s the wood sugars and tannins ect of the barrel. I like the finishing to compliment the whiskey and not overtake it, so I am typically more hesitant of long finishing times. As you mentioned, how wet the barrel is def impacts the time needed in the barrel. I like what BK is doing and they seem to be one of the few brands that are more geared towards the whiskey enthusiast. Those secondary barrels have to be expensive so I would like to think it’s about improving the whiskey and not going through the extra hassle and expense to attract taters lol. Either way I enjoyed the video and being able to discuss it
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
Yeah I guess I explained that poorly. Aging and finishing ARE different things, but I was using the scotch comparison as a barometer for how much less efficient used barrels are. I agree with finishing being a “refinement” of the already matured product or at least it should be. I just have a hard time believe that you’re getting anything usable out of those barrels without the benefit of months/years of finishing. I think finishing in used whiskey barrels is very different. The extra alcohol in whiskey just breaks down those wood fibers in a way rum, wine, brandy don’t. And as far as any remaining liquid in the barrel it’s basically whiskey finishing whiskey, it already has a very similar chemical composition so it would take a lot to alter that in a meaningful way like it does with new distillate in scotch. None of that I have an actual concrete science behind, but I’m making logical leaps based on what I know. It all hinges on how much liquid is left in the barrel. And if there’s that much left in the barrel, at what point does finishing become blending? Still enjoy what BK is making, it just still feels like clout chasing, and I’m not convinced it does anything. But I agree it’s been a pleasure discussing this and I appreciate the comments!
@WallachGaming
6 ай бұрын
I'm pretty much clinging to Rare Breed as my bourbon safe space from the stupidity of the current market. If they try to jack the price of Rare Breed up I may get out of bourbon altogether.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
I feel that. I do feel like availability is getting better, but pricing is soaring and it’s just dumb.
@garmin1488
6 ай бұрын
I've been drinking bourbon, actually drinking it, not collecting it, for over 15 years, the biggest trend I hate is people who've gotten into in the last few years, driving up prices and availability. Bourbon's like Blanton's, ER, Wellers, all used to be on the shelf, now they are limited allocations. Now everyone is Bourbon Connoisseur with a KZitem Channel.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
Hey thanks for the comment, I appreciate the engagement! Despite the fact that you hate me I’m gonna keep on making content, cause it’s something that I enjoy.
@blefever151
6 ай бұрын
1. Your frustrations are legitimate. 2. Can you do a review of your favorite non-Kentucky distilled products?
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
1. Thank you for your validation. I feel vindicated😂 2. Why yes, I can!
@whiskeylandtv
6 ай бұрын
prices are totally out of control
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
Agreed!
@davidmeier1811
4 ай бұрын
Gripe # 2 unregulated words goes even deeper than you mention. Those words are known as "puffery" meaning to exaggerate or embellish. As one lawyer told me "good natured BS." The fact is MOST words on labels are not regulated and as such have NO legal meaning. If they have no meaning then there is no such thing as true or false meaning anyone can use the words regardless of the "truth." You mentioned a few but single barrel and small batch are not defined. Neither is Crafted, hand crafted, hand bottled, double oaked, double double oaked, uncut, unfiltered, special this or that, limited this or that, reserve, bespoke blend, (one of my favorites). Also, the story is not regulated and is considered puffery. I agree with you on this and only when consumers learn and stop buying the BS it might change. Stories sell and marketers know it.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
4 ай бұрын
All are very valid points. I rarely argue for more government control, but in this case a little more hands on from the TTB may not be a bad thing. I work in the tobacco industry and FDA, USDA, TTB, and CBP are all government agencies I have to work with on a daily basis
@davidmeier1811
4 ай бұрын
@@GentlemenandWhiskey Ugghhh I am sorry you have to deal with bureaucrats!
@ehtater
6 ай бұрын
I don't mind sourced Whiskey brands.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
Cool! If everyone was the same whiskey would be boring.
@ehtater
6 ай бұрын
@@GentlemenandWhiskey I especially like when bourbon groups can start to make their own sourced barrels into bottles and start something for their patreons and such, there is room for it.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
Alright so I feel I need to clarify a bit. As I’ve mentioned in other comments I’m not anti sourcing, but I’m not a fan of spinning a “good story” into a whiskey brand. As a consumer buying that you’re buying whiskey that has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the story or the history itself. What you’re describing is the the perfect use for sourced whiskey. There are some great blenders out there and it’s great for companies that are out there sourcing while starting up their own stock. But there’s so many companies that have great stories and shitty sourced whiskey. That’s what I hate.
@ehtater
6 ай бұрын
@@GentlemenandWhiskey That makes a lot of sense, I find the unregulated portions of labels to include some of the grossest mischaracterizations in all of marketing.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
Agreed, whiskey labels need to be standardized and more heavily regulated.
@camo2112
6 ай бұрын
1500 also sounds like a very large batch to me
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
1500 is a very large batch.
@SSR_Virgo_Tiger
6 ай бұрын
I can't imagine paying $500 for anything from Dickel 😂
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
SAME
@dee13lee
6 ай бұрын
After 18 months in the bourbon world, I’ve turned to tequila. No one follow me. You’ll definitely hate it. Stay with bourbon.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
You can keep it. You’re right, I do hate it😂 if you’re worried about popularity, you picked the wrong spirit tho. Tequila is the #1 growing spirit category.
@customer9845
6 ай бұрын
I agree with all your gripes
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
Gripes is a good way of putting it😂😂
@DaShowBiz1
6 ай бұрын
All facts
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
🤜🤛
@jbred6049
6 ай бұрын
If you're not willing to pay the price, then don't buy it. You're not missing out on anything. If people are willing to pay the price, then that's what they'll charge. If people are not willing to pay the price, then they'll drop it, or go out of business. Get over it, and let it go. It's just the way it is. Grow up, and move on.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
Hey thanks for watching! I really appreciate the basic economics lesson too. I enjoy making these videos, and I have found a community of people who enjoy these conversations. I refuse to believe that the current status quo is the way things have to be, so I’m going to continue to talk about this and have these conversations, even if it makes people like you assume I’m immature.
@jbred6049
6 ай бұрын
@@GentlemenandWhiskey And there we have it folks. Yet another unnecessary response to something. A pattern has emerged. And now I will unnecessarily respond. Markets correct. No worries.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
Seems like we’re on equal footing then. I get an analytical boost for responding to comments, so I’m content to keep doing this.
@jbred6049
6 ай бұрын
@@GentlemenandWhiskey In that case, I want some compensation for helping you to grow your channel.
@GentlemenandWhiskey
6 ай бұрын
I’ll ship you a sticker if you want, hit me up on instagram or email me.
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