It was a really fun evening. Thanks for your hospitality! It was great to hear the mixes on your system. Great video, too! I think it's useful to give people insights into how recordings are made.
@BrianVallotton
Жыл бұрын
Hi Jerome! I went to Amazon and downloaded your latest works so that I could hear what he was speaking about concerning placement. God bless you and your future endeavors. Thank you.
@saxman73
Жыл бұрын
@@BrianVallotton Thank you!
@shaunmiller4054
7 ай бұрын
Thanks for putting me on to Jerome, great player, like his vibe Shaun UK
@notes-tones
Жыл бұрын
Informative video on two front s, the talk on stereo imagining and Jerome Sabbagh introduction. Went to his website and purchased the vinyl release of "No Filter". Thanks!
@bradt.3555
Жыл бұрын
I didn't realize there were even people that disputed the effects of stereo imaging. That's the whole point of a decent system. I have an old RCA record that came with my Gramp's first RCA stereo system in 1958. It's called "Sounds in Space" and basically demonstrates different stereo effects.
@knobbshots
Жыл бұрын
Thank you for this, very informative backed by obvious experience. One of my faves is live to two track, Stan Getz Charlie Byrd, Jazz Samba. Very “real” sound/feel. Thanks again
@holytiger89
Жыл бұрын
I actually listened to few of Jeromes albums few years ago. Good player he is. Didn’t know he was an audiophile. Wish you shot a video with him.
@fredericmorris2931
Жыл бұрын
Wow, the most lucid discussion of this topic I have ever heard or read! Thank you!
@billdunn8542
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for this video John, I appreciate your voice in an otherwise delusional industry of preconceived notion’s. I’ve been, let’s say, taking in “Audiophilism” from the internet for about three years now. Being an audiophile was a lot more fun before rando’s on the internet were telling me I couldn’t be hearing what I was hearing. i.e. wanting me to reject my experience in the real world and embrace their beliefs. Ethan Winer says… so it can’t be true. For the life of me, I can’t understand why anyone would limit their experiences in audio by worshiping the ideology of some archaic has been, or anyone else for that matter. Keep an open mind and trust in your experience. Trust yourself and enjoy all that your system has to offer.
@DBravo29er
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, the measurebators *need* everybody else to be delusional in order for their statements about reality to be correct.
@scottwheeler2679
Жыл бұрын
Believing in Santa Clause was a lot of fun too but if you still believe in Santa Clause as an adult with adult responsibilities it's going to be a problem. Ethan actually has done the research to know what he is talking about. And it isn't about wanting you or anyone else to "reject" your expeirences it's about actually *understanding* them and you can't understand your experiences if you come from an anti-science/pro I believe in Santa Clause position. "Keeping and open mind" extends to being open minded to the possibility that an entire field of science, psychoacoustics might actually be legit. Being truly open minded means understanding the fact that how we hear, process and remember sound might not be as perfect as we imagine it to be. And understanding these things does not "limit our experiences." It simply better informs them. Knowing how my ears and brain hear, process and "record" sound does not prevent me from enjoying all my system has to offer. On the contrary it allows me to build a system with more to offer without wasting money on things that offer nothing other than a temporary consumer fix.
@DBravo29er
Жыл бұрын
@@scottwheeler2679 Just as musicians learn to hear before they learn to play their given instrument (or voice), delusion is not a mandatory crutch through which one must experience music. Listening is a developed skill. If the position of "the Szience!" Is that audiophiles are all delusional, then that isn't science *at all*. That's propaganda; that perfectly reasoned people with careers, professions, mortgages, families, avocations, etc all suddenly assume a room temperature IQ when it comes to audio. I've far too many friends who are musicians to buy this hypothesis. Too many violinists, cellists, tenor and alto sax players, pianists, trombonists, guitarists, and vocalists to believe that all of their minds are so easily deceived that they can't pick a single accurate note or verse from memory on a fretless or valveless instrument. How do concerts even happen?? Lastly, labeling all who disagree with you as "anti science" is a daring proposition, no? To label them all as delusional in order to support your assertions? What happens if they are not delusional?
@scottwheeler2679
Жыл бұрын
@@DBravo29er 1. It isn't the position of science that anyone is "dellusional" when we percieve sound certain qualities in sound that aren't actually coming from the sound itself. And that audiophiles would use such charged language to describe what science does tell us about human aural perception speaks more to the egos of audiophiles than the validity of the science. If you want to remain ignorant on the subject and believe you and your friends have super human powers when it comes to hearing that is your prerogative. But it doesn't change reality. And you are going to have to live with that conflict between reality and your beliefs as long as you wish to engage people in public forums on the subject. Also you can line up every musician friend you have and they will all be subject to the same human processes of hearing, processing and remembering sound and the human limitations that come with it. And no, there is nothing daring about labelling people who reject science or willfully remain ignorant of it as anti-science. I am curious, have you actually read any scientific literature on human aural peerception? Have you actually looked into any of that research? I would say that rejecting an entire body of scientific research without looking at it simply because you don't like some of the conclusions is a pretty anti-scientific position. One of the basic tenants of science is that science don't give a $**t whether or not you like the results. And true open mindedness means being open minded to the posibility that what you believe just aint so. Science is about getting over ourselves and getting the fact that the objective evidence doesn't lie.
@DBravo29er
Жыл бұрын
@@scottwheeler2679 I'm an established audio professional with more than 20 years of expertise, a full AES member, and have tendered expert witness testimony in courts of laws for capital cases on audio. This is not my complete CV, either. Your condescending tone is.... misplaced. You literally cannot testify to my perceptions nor my mindset. Kindly abstain from attempting to use "Szience!" as a cudgel in your efforts to curate what I say or what I perceive. Lastly, your categorical proclamations about what "Szience!" says greatly exceed the actual scope of the findings presented in the literature that you are presuming to cite. I'm very familiar with this field of psychoacoustics. I've many PhD friends in acoustical engineering, as well. There's nothing settled about the science. Nor is there ever, because that's not actual science. Claiming that an idea is settled reveals much about your uses of science.
@matzeflamingos
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for your videos, John. Great products you build. Greetings from Berlin Germany
@charlier7711
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the great video! And I love the cynic's: 'stereo was invented to sell twice as many speakers' that's evil marketing genius! and I plan to spread this misinformation for fun and amusement! But seriously thanks for taking the time to chat with us!
@SebaDonekBDG
8 ай бұрын
Great, educational video. A lot of valuable content. I wish there were more videos like this, discussing audio industry topics in the simplest form possible. Greetings from Poland.
@bububarx4559
Жыл бұрын
A little bit offtopic, but it came to mind: would love to see a video where you teach how to place devore speakers (how you like to place them, why you place them how you place them and what you try to achieve)
@DrSinisster
Жыл бұрын
I don’t own Devores, but Id really enjoy that myself.
@pranadistribution6033
Жыл бұрын
Not a rant, just a nice delineation of info. I find much of the audiophile issue is an overweening desire to be certain, correct, and perhaps justified in an area wherein most have little if any practical experience. Kind of like theories of evolution pre-science...wherein disagreeing with those terrifically creative theories could be met with the sword. "thou doth protest too much.' Thanks for the tip to Jerome. New to me. Looking forward to checking him out. I'm a huge Kenny Barron fan. Check out the solo work he did at the Shalin Liu during the pandemic. Those engineers came to hear the raw footage in our little shop. Such a beautiful player. I think I'll listen to People Time this morning. Kenny's playing on Night and Day is a masterclass. His duet side with Mino Cinelu (Swamp Sally) is also a great 'feel something with your coffee' side. It would be great if you could have Jerome on as a guest. I wonder how you feel about this idea ; one speaker designer I knew felt that so much was naturally lost in the recording process, that he had to find ways to add some of the body back into the music.
@ulfp.3121
Жыл бұрын
Brilliant, a seriously good session well beyond a rant. You illustrate some very fundamental concepts of Stereo listening, and beyond. Thank you 😊
@lookbacktime9422
Жыл бұрын
Very, very informative ... Thank you!
@voicesofvinyl
Жыл бұрын
Some of the best recordings I have heard are from the Three Blind Mice record label out of Japan in the 1970/1980's. The way they recorded the instruments and positioned them in the sound stage is unlike anything I have heard. On piano trio records like Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio, you can actually hear the scale of the piano across the left-to-center section of the sound stage. High notes are more left, where as the lower notes are right. There are parts in which you can hear drums or other instruments in other mics, but to me that bleed into the other mics creates more realism in the music. It is quite different than the RVG way of panning instruments hard left or right, but both types of mixes have their benefits. Great video as always, John!
@ulfp.3121
Жыл бұрын
So true. Any TBM Record/Vinyl or CD comes with a small booklet illustrating the positioning and make of the microphone. A lovely detail to emphasise on the quality of such recordings…
@josephvanalstyne4049
Жыл бұрын
I agree the three blind mice albums are excellent isao Suzuki Yamamoto 2 amazing stuff
@voicesofvinyl
Жыл бұрын
@@josephvanalstyne4049 Majority of the recordings were done by engineer Yoshihiko Kannari and the recordings took place in the same studios/locations. I find that this plays a big part in how the music is recorded and presented because he clearly knew how to record each player really well and also the acoustics of the rooms he worked in.
@monochromios
Жыл бұрын
Being a philosopher who's specialized in aesthetics and studying neuroscience aspects of aesthetics I'm very familiar with what you presented, from another perspective, but can't agree more with everything you said. Certain audiophiles make me avoid to use the term referred to me. Thank you for sharing
@thewoofer7955
Жыл бұрын
Great discussion of soundstaging effects. Not sure why others would dispute that a soundstage exits...it certainly does in my basement! Is it contrived because the band did not record the album with the musicians in the same room at the same time? Sure, but who cares. As long as it sounds like they are in the room when I'm listening, that is all that matters. Cheers.
@MrRocktuga
Жыл бұрын
As someone who also played in bands and loves both music and audio, it felt like I was hearing myself in your words. 👏 Yes, there any many audiophile balloons to be popped, because many don’t have a clue of what they’re talking about, and even less of how recordings are made, and what sort of decisions had to be made by recording engineers. Asking any hifi system to sound like “being at the live event” is not a realistic goal, because it would be nearly impossible to know where the person would be seated, or if that’s even what the audio engineer wanted to capture. It sure isn’t on most rock recordings, as any studio album usually ends up sound better than the real thing, with the sound of the drums properly “polished” with the choice of mic, mic placement, EQ, gate, compression and other “dirty” words on the audiophile community. I’d say that even the goal of “sounding like what the mastering engineer heard” is unrealistic, because every high-end studios monitors or loudspeakers have their own sound (by a long shot), and all the different mastering studios have their own acoustics (it has been clearly shown how the same monitors behave so differently across studio rooms). While on the topic of mastering, many studios have analog or digital adjustments made to the monitors/loudspeakers in order to work best with the room, and/or the mastering engineer that is working with them. And even then, most music isn’t mixed/mastered for high-end audio systems, because the majority of people don’t have them, and never did. Some choices were always made in terms of being able to “translate” into several playback formats, and that’s one of the reasons why mono compatibility was always important (it doesn’t matter if a recording has a insane soundstage if the whole mix crashes with all the phase interference of the mono sum). And there’s a whole topic around what represents real stereo, because listening to a stereo system inside a room means that both ears are going to hear both speakers, even if one is louder and closer to the right and left ear, and those distances and reflections are going to have an impact in that “crosstalk” that we do hear between the left and stereo channels (only headphones can prevent this, although they have their own side effects on how we perceive sound). What I mean to say is that audiophiles often tend to be stuck with a lot of nonsense, because someone (probably as ignorant, and sometimes trying to sell an idea or a questionable product repeated several times). I believe that knowing how the recording process really works should give an extra liberty to audio lovers / audiophiles, by acknowledging that it’s all about what sounds good with the music we love and in the (very) specific rooms that we all have. One of the things that I love the most in the audio reproduction side are loudspeakers, because I’d argue that they have the most important task of being the interface between the last electrical signal chain and our ears, along with the room that they’re working with. I’d say that they have one of the harder tasks in the playback chain these days, since there’s hardly any other quality audio component that is able to make such a drastic change to the sound, while working with (and against) rooms that always have particular acoustical properties, making them a moving target for loudspeaker manufacturers! They end up acting as huge “equalizers” on that combination with every single room, and while I understand how tone controls on amplifiers can have a negative impact on the sound (even at their neutral position, if they’re not properly designed), after decades of avoiding them and by understanding more about the whole recording process, I’m not sure that it is the more logical approach. If a room is boosting (or cutting) the low end by a lot (as it often happens), exciting several nasty room modes, what’s the sort of damage that being able to have some control over it (even if basic) versus the benefits from being able to do some adjustments? I don’t mean to go overboard (since that would indicate that the starting point is way off what it should be), but I do remember that I used them without any sense of “guilt” when I was young, and music was always fun (even on lower grade audio equipment). Tone controls were mostly banned from the high-end industry (I was always fine with a “tone defeat switch”), but many mixing and mastering studios have always used them, as well as active crossovers. 🙂 While most people wouldn’t be happy if they had to deal with several amplifiers, additional cables and adjustments, I would be tempted to think that a serious audiophile would be happy to be able to fine tune his system in that granular detail, instead of playing with cable risers… But I digress (I guess this was my rant 😀), and I really loved your video. 👍 Thank you and I wish you the most success, since you clearly have passion for what you do. Cheers.
@alfredoguadarramam
Жыл бұрын
Hi, Alfredo Guadarrama from Mexico. I read some where that talk with smart people can help to get smarter it is really an experience hear you, it is an experience hear how smart you are, hope it helps me to improve.
@scottwheeler2679
Жыл бұрын
One thing worth noting about live acoustic classical music in a concet hall is that a big part of the "imaging" is quite literally the actual image. We did indeed evolve to hear spacial cues as you point out. But we evolved to use the input from our eyes as well as our ears to locate things and it turns out that when there is a spacial cue conflict between our eyes and ears our eyes dominate our sense of location. So in a concert hall when the sound alone is blurring the location of an instrument because of all of the hall reflections our eyes are telling us where we are "hearing" the sound's location. In stereo recording this has to be taken into consideration where some sense (not all of it but some of it) of aural imaging will be lost in the concert hall reflections when recording and mixing sound only. So one could say that the most "naturalistic" imaging from a stereo recording of a live acoustic classical concert in a concert hall isn't going to be the most literally "accurate" one. I do think it is important in any discussion about imaging to distinguish between "natural" and "naturalistic." The idea of stereo being "natural" vs "fake" is kind of absurd. There is nothing "natural" about stereo recording and playback. It is by definition artificial in that it doesn't happen in nature, we make it. But tht doesn't mean the net effect is "fake" it just means the spacial cues are coming from a different source. The *effect* is no more or less "real."
@sidvicious3129
Жыл бұрын
This argument was brought up by Ron from New Record Day recently, where he said similar to what you said Scott, that a lot of these effects are put in later. I agree with John that our complex auditory system is able to do special cues all on its own, but the effects done in the recording are pre determined depending on what the artist and mixing engineer is trying to accomplish, but our auditory system goes far beyond mere recordings it allows you to judge when someone is too close or further away from you, to your left or right, if they are whispering and your brain processes this and estimates differences in tone and pitch. I also agree with you Scott that stereo is an effect because most earlier recordings were mono and on the dawning of stereo different engineers had different ways of doing stereo. Audiophile recordings are heavily in some cases modified with treble, mids and bass and noise reduction added. In the end the most important thing is that you enjoy the recording. Thank you for bringing this out Scott because it is highly logical.
@scottwheeler2679
Жыл бұрын
@@sidvicious3129 Yes, to a large degree we can locate sound sources just from the spacial cues in the sound. Not nearly as well in a concert hall. A concert hall is a rather unique environment that is built to be particularly reverberant. This is not to say we don't get any spacial cues in a concert hall, but that they are substantially masked by the reflections. AND we don't notice this because we get the visual cues.Visual cues override aural cues. When there is a conflict between the visual cue and the aural cue the brain will choose to believe our eyes over our ears. A great example of this phenomenon is the McGurk effect. there are some really good youtube videos demonstrating the McGurk effect.
@sidvicious3129
Жыл бұрын
@@scottwheeler2679 , agreed and thanks for the reply, your logic is sound.
@MrRocktuga
Жыл бұрын
@@scottwheeler2679 I totally agree with you, and yes, our eyes are predominant to our ears (that’s also why it’s hard to make completely unbiased judgments of audio gear when we can see what is being used, even when we do our best to avoid it). On the other hand, the same can be said when we’re in a live acoustic performance (like an orquestra), since we know that we’re hearing the real thing (because we see it), and it’s very hard to disconnect that experience from the actual sound that we are hearing. In other words, if we have that same exact sound in our listening rooms, would we find it as good? 😉 We do know that by sitting on the wrong place inside concert hall, we could end up with a bad and muddy sound, even though we have the sense of scale by the loudness and the size of the space. I do find that I really love to listen to music in the dark (even with headphones), because there are less distractions (the visual ones were gone, leaving the remaining attention up to the level my brain activity releases on other thoughts). In other words, the less we “overload” our brains with simultaneous cognitive inputs, the more we are able to focus on one of them (like hearing/listening). We hear with our ears, but we listen with our brain. 😉
@TT-eo2is
Жыл бұрын
Thanks John for your wonderful "Soundstage" rant, it was Right-On!! I've been commenting on a forum about this audiophile subject...You certainly have said it BEST!!! Ted
@TheJohnniegolden
Жыл бұрын
I can't wait to listen to this man's speakers one day. Through what Herb and Art wrote of the magic that Shindo, Pass and EAR put through those Brooklyn boxes, the sheer romance and LSD wonder, I would, could imagine trading many an exotic vacation revisiting my records. Looking forward to an NYC venture from Toronto shortly with my company. Perhaps I can persuade a visit to DeVore? I'll bring Pie?
@DismasM
Жыл бұрын
Rant on. That's actually a pretty great little primer of the recording/mixing process in laymen's terms. And of course imaging is real, whether 'created' in multi-track or captured in two-track. It's simple to demonstrate in a decent stereo rig that is set up well: Have someone close his eyes for a minute or so, listen intently and then point to the sound of an instrument. (I love it when that instrument happens to seem 4' left of a speaker cabinet. Mind blown.) At least that's how I think of imaging and soundstage. But riddle me this: why do I want a mono rig with a flea-watt tube amp and a solo vintage (gigantic) horn?
@matzeflamingos
Жыл бұрын
Love to track or direct to disk sounds ever awesome. You not only feel the groove that the individual band members exert on the others, but also the direct influence of the frequencies on the individual instruments
@josephvanalstyne4049
Жыл бұрын
Great video you explain things well very thought out probably my favorite video of yours you should do a demonstration of your speakers through your explanation of Imaging it would be a great watch thanks
@garyherman3373
Жыл бұрын
Very interesting to learn about recording techniques….thanks as always John.
@pablohrrg8677
Жыл бұрын
Soundstage does exist. We hear in 3D. That said, stereo imaging works as perspective and focus in an visual image. Is just our mental recreation of the information we get. It's an illusion. The background of John's video can be real, but also can be a trick to make it appear it is in the far back. A serious and informed discussion on this topic is warranted, beyond a rant.
@Staybrown11
Жыл бұрын
Stereo imaging in the mixing process is an art form that not everyone gets right. As your experience in the mixing room suggests. When we play music in our stereo system it doesn’t always “pan” out the way it’s “intended”. I think that’s the jist of the stereo argument. It’s created in the mixing room (for the most part) and sometimes it’s not done right.
@pablohrrg8677
Жыл бұрын
In most studio recorded music the producer and mixers try to create an artificial stereo image. Sometimes it is done right, sometimes it is awful and confusing. In music recorded live, mostly mixers try to reproduce the experience of the actual audience.
@Xantylon74
Жыл бұрын
In addition to music, I like to listen to radio plays, and here too it is very important to what extent the sound engineers represent the stereo localization. Voices, footsteps, dialogue, reverberation, environmental factors like rain etc. That belongs to a good radio play. You don't even need a high end system to hear it. Without your eyes, the brain is completely dependent on the two ears, which even sharpens hearing.
@xfloodcasual8124
Жыл бұрын
The ability to convert sound into a coherent stereo image is created in the auditory cortex. Animals don't perceive soundstage, they hear two distinct sound sources because they lack the more advanced auditory cortex processing. So its symantics - you could say the image originates from the recording, but its constructed in the brain. in fact there are some people with unformed cortex and cannot perceive soundstage or depth. The brain is a mechanism which is constantly interpreting information around us and organizing and making sense of it. Its important to be clear of both the properties of the analog world around us and that of the organizing systems within us. Like a good magician or recreational drug, hi-fi systems or concert hall designers can manipulate our minds (vis a vis sound and space) to experience enhanced aural experiences. I am not a science geek by any means but that's the answer.
@hifipigTv
8 ай бұрын
Yep, one of my pet peeves too. Of course the stereo image is real!
@hamidrezahabibi8111
Жыл бұрын
That was a great topic and I loved your last line. 😂 Have you checked opus3records from Sweden 🇸🇪? It belongs to Jan-Éric Persson. He mentions that the place or venue a band usually performs is the “extra” member. If you have a trio; you in fact are listening to a quartet and so on… so it’ll take become critical and important to record the sound of the venue as well.
@dilbyjones
Жыл бұрын
Check out “WET LEG” dude they actually rock!
@derrickkisono
Жыл бұрын
Do you think that the fact you can see the musicans at a live concert helps with imaging. Kind of like the saying you eat with your eyes, if something doesn't look appetizing you might not try it. The most incredible imaging I experiecenced was a Linn Sondeck, Ittock, Asak, Audio Research electronics and Quad ESL 63's. The front to back imaging was amazing you could cut it with a knife.
@scottwheeler2679
Жыл бұрын
Yes. seeing is hearing.
@GertSterner
Жыл бұрын
I May be wrong, but i recall stereo being invented for movies?
@patrickshawl7189
Жыл бұрын
In halls I always want to sit right in front of the sound board
@tthorgeirson
Жыл бұрын
100% agreement on audience-perspective to mix drums. Drummer perspective sounds wrong, especially when everyone else on the soundstage is 'typically' put in the right spot... Ties to the rant, of course - don't pretend no one can hear that and doesn't care haha. Imaging exists and if you're paying attention, anyone hears it.
@palmal3542
Жыл бұрын
I know you use the band analogy....but the orchestra is even more persuasive....oh you got round to orchestras 😁
@MetaModern87
Жыл бұрын
John I respect you, and what you have to say, but I feel you may be misunderstanding what people say about stereo not existing naturally. While yes, we do hear in stereo which gives us the ability to localize sound sources because time arrival differences, ALL natural sounds are mono single origin point sounds.
@TheMirolab
Жыл бұрын
I would never want a recording that sounds like what I hear at a concert (of any genre). I want it to sound BETTER! For live, I want "some" concert hall sound, but I'd prefer to hear what the conductor is hearing. For more produced music, I love being transported into the "fake" produced sonic world created by the mixer. A good system will transport me into that fake world. That's what I want.
@DeVOREFIDELITY
Жыл бұрын
Agree completely!
@johnnixon2504
Жыл бұрын
The orangutan in the room for me is… Was this a response video to another video released on 10/23/22?
@DeVOREFIDELITY
Жыл бұрын
No, this was made and uploaded last Friday--I just made it public on Sunday. But I did see the New Record Day video, it's very good!
@gotham61
Жыл бұрын
We’re you responding to New Record Day’s video from yesterday without name calling him?
@Newrecordday2013
Жыл бұрын
I doubt it’s a direct response to my video as pretty much everything John just said I agree with and some I even touched on in my video. Staging (which I’m obsessed with) even when multi-tracked can absolutely sound real. I’ve worked for nearly a decade to help viewers achieve the 3 dimensional sound field and will continue to do so. The purpose and point of my video was to help listeners understand that not every record the buy or song they stream will give a realistic and lifelike performance. It’s just not the way things work. Good video John! Send me some speakers to review sometime.
@holytiger89
Жыл бұрын
@@Newrecordday2013 Preferably you should have some tube amps in hand to review his speakers. His speakers sound best with tubes. Especially low powered SET amps if its the O series.
@ambrosio4374
Жыл бұрын
Hi. This is an old debate. I think the matter is between different recording techinques and if they preserve the ambience of the recording place. In that aspect, most of the music we play is disconnected from it in the sense of musicians playing together.
@sarelwagner1099
Жыл бұрын
Hi John, please reach out to me, will send you an email. It’s related to this video, have information you may find useful.
@DBravo29er
Жыл бұрын
Great video, JD. What an obtuse stance to take, that stereophonic imaging is fake. Educate yourselves: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereophonic_sound?wprov=sfti1
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