We can and should have basic animal rights laws for farm animals. The idea that kicking or throwing a dog down a flight of stairs, for example, provokes so much rage in the minds of the public, while cows, chickens and pigs are subject to extremely painful conditions in their stalls, and extremely painful deaths, just makes no sense whatsoever. This is one of those issues where the public opinion is so irrational you wonder if something is seriouisly mentally wrong with us as a species.
@nathanmitchell7961
10 ай бұрын
Dogs are domesticated pets that hold a direct and personal bond with the owner. Dogs have oxytocin firing in parts of the brain associated with love and understanding its owners mannerisms and voice, this is THE distinction. It would be MORE morally wrong to domesticate a type of species then kick them down the stairs or inhabit suffering compared to a cow or pig. We can argue that place of ethical moral hierarchies but you cant deny there objective place in reality. Would you argue CO2 Gas Procedures are contingent with your analysis of "extremely painful deaths" ?
@KrwiomoczBogurodzicy
10 ай бұрын
“Giving farm animals more space, more natural environments, more companions does not right the fundamental wrong [treating them as resources], any more than giving lab animals more anaesthesia or bigger, cleaner cages would right the fundamental wrong in their case.” - Tom Regan, _The Case for Animal Rights_ “If you really care about animals, then stop trying to figure out how to exploit them ‘compassionately’. Just stop exploiting them.” - Gary Francione
@domsnow6418
10 ай бұрын
The fact that the online public was ready to crucify West Ham Football Pro for kicking his Cat, probably while munching on a bucket of Chicken Wings, tells you everything you need to know about the cognitive dissonance people have towards this topic.
@strathdee8825
10 ай бұрын
Insanity in individuals is rare, in groups it's the rule.
@CanariasCanariass
10 ай бұрын
@@nathanmitchell7961 There is no objective morality. Kicking a cow or a pig is just as bad as kicking a dog. There is no difference except our attachment to dogs for example.
@Jack458111
10 ай бұрын
Rational Sam Harris fans lose their god damn minds when someone points out how obviously fucked up human treatment of animals is.
@nevis4567
10 ай бұрын
There's a lot of misinformation and values of human supremacy to undo... sadly it's gonna take some time, but I'm glad the podcast will help
@paullampl1
10 ай бұрын
People love morality up until the point where their own lifestyle comes into question.
@domsnow6418
10 ай бұрын
@@paullampl1we‘re ready to let the world burn for bacon it seems
@phoenixfire8226
10 ай бұрын
@@nevis4567 It's objectively true that we are the supreme species on planet earth. To say otherwise is abject ignorance. That said, in my estimation, we should use our position of superiority to do good works for lesser species. Just because I can easily squish an ant, doesn't mean I should.
@dystopiaeatsmoney
10 ай бұрын
So you agree that might doesn’t make right?
@Jack458111
10 ай бұрын
Quit messing around and get Alex O’Connor on the podcast.
@arklowrockz
10 ай бұрын
The time of the KZitem Atheist is passed. Thank God. No need for Alex O'Connor.
@olajankowska1408
10 ай бұрын
just go vegan
@veganmeathead8171
10 ай бұрын
Thank you for having this conversation. These are really important questions which get to the heart of our consciousness.
@wade2bosh
10 ай бұрын
will sam speak out against kosher and halal? - animal torture
@vasisimari92058
10 ай бұрын
Standard killing practices in the Western World are equally abhorrent. Killing should not happen. Full stop.
@bryanutility9609
10 ай бұрын
He has before.
@nadoelik
10 ай бұрын
Thank you for this interview , and shedding some light on the biggest crime ever committed by humanity against sentient beings.
@LinkEX
10 ай бұрын
I know you are referring to the animal experiments. But depending on how you define the scope of a crime, you might as well change the tense to present continuous for our current animal agriculture.
@nadoelik
10 ай бұрын
@@LinkEX I am referring to both
@nevis4567
10 ай бұрын
Thank you for that wording. How wild is it that the biggest crime being committed on nonhuman animals is still treated as such a minority issue. It's hard to imagine decades from now we won't evoke parallels to slavery/civil rights/women's rights/children's rights/LGBTQ+ rights for not collectively eliminating this injustice with the moral force it requires.
@nadoelik
10 ай бұрын
@@nevis4567 We have the perfect victims, those who can't speak.
@krishnaveganathar
10 ай бұрын
@@nevis4567decades from now? We are doing it now. And we have been doing it for decades. From the animals’ perspective, humans are evil monsters.
@ChrisJWinn
10 ай бұрын
My kids have been vegan for 6 years from age 3 and 6. My son starts high school this year in an accelerated learning class(top 20% of that class) and plays for 3 soccer teams. Don't believe the people who say it's child abuse to have vegan kids.
@maximilliancunningham6091
10 ай бұрын
I stopped eating meat, in the early 90s, too.
@nathanmitchell7961
10 ай бұрын
Your kids didnt choose anything, stop forcing your lacking diet onto your own children who cant agree to it, youll be the first people look at when your kids suffer from nutrient deficiencies
@ChrisJWinn
10 ай бұрын
@@maximilliancunningham6091why'd you stop?
@dystopiaeatsmoney
10 ай бұрын
Take of your blinkers and try to engage with the conversation. Your wilful ignorance reflects poorly on you and humanity at large.
@arambarsamian6312
10 ай бұрын
Feeding your children the most nutrient-dense foods on the planet - plants - is certainly not child abuse. Feeding them animal products is certainly - whether one realizes it or not - animal abuse.
@antitheistvegan
10 ай бұрын
Rational skepticism is a natural route to Veganism. I just wish more of us would make the connection.
@William1w1
10 ай бұрын
Or a route to deciding we really should be able to eat babies. That's the side I fall on. Babies in a vacuum, mind you. Wouldn't want the mother to get upset.
@firvantavan2793
10 ай бұрын
Why is it more rational to be a vegan than eating a balanced diet?
@Theactivepsychos
10 ай бұрын
Really? I don’t think so. I have to eat meat and other animal products. I’d have such a low quality of life if I didn’t that I’d definitely not carry on. I do find the highest welfare animal farms I can and I do speak to the companies regularly to find out any changes in their practises.
@patodesudesu
10 ай бұрын
@@firvantavan2793 Because if you care about wellbeing you are probably making lots of animals suffer. I mean but if you don't care about suffering not really. Rationality doesn't give you things to value outside instrumental ones. Personally I'm happy to have learned a way I can reduce suffering in the world.
@firvantavan2793
10 ай бұрын
@@patodesudesu I don't believe I make animals suffer, but I do eat a lot of meat. It is not factory farmed, though. Animals living in the wild suffer way more than the animals I consume.
@kaylawatson8540
10 ай бұрын
PETER SINGER IS AN ANGEL ON EARTH. ❤ I love him so much #veganforever
@vasisimari92058
10 ай бұрын
Peter Singer is an utilitarian prick. Not vegan by the way.
@blackbeard479
10 ай бұрын
Peter Singer: DON'T throw another shrimp on the barbie
@ethanstapley7018
4 ай бұрын
Shrimps are probably OK. The biggest meat eater conundrum is the difference between a very young baby vs a pig. Shrimps are good as gold, they don't care.
@Brandon-os3qr
3 ай бұрын
@@ethanstapley7018 so the shrimp welfare initiatives that exist are based on what? You're saying there's scientific evidence that they don't suffer?
@6ygfddgghhbvdx
10 ай бұрын
34:41 Sam still loves his food more than life and suffering of animals. Hypocracy among humans are immesarable!
@KrwiomoczBogurodzicy
10 ай бұрын
“Naked had I once seen both of them, the greatest man and the smallest man: all too like one another-all too human, even the greatest man! All too small, even the greatest man!-that was my disgust at man! And the eternal return also of the smallest man!-that was my disgust at all existence! Ah, Disgust! Disgust! Disgust!”-Thus spake Zarathustra, and sighed and shuddered; for he remembered his sickness.” - Nietzsche, _Thus Spake Zarathustra_
@joshyman221
10 ай бұрын
@@Frodoswaggnsall humans are humans and are susceptible to flaws of human nature.
@louisjones2653
10 ай бұрын
This was a great conversation, I studied some of Singer's work in college and was significantly influenced by it.
@billscannell93
10 ай бұрын
Examples like the completely braindead baby, while interesting to debate, are rather obscure. For the purpose of simplicity, we should just keep the goal in mind of minimizing suffering whenever possible. The main topic here is inhumanity towards developed, healthy creatures. While there are potentially odd little paradoxes in the argument, they don't have much to do with the main thrust of what Singer is saying. Anyway, Singer IS saying that all humans should be treated with the same respect. His point is that the humanness of a being does not, by itself, determine the extent to which the being should be treated humanely. That whole tangent about checking guns was basically a warning against slippery slopes, and I don't see a slippery slope here. No one is going to go from "we should treat other sentient beings better and think of animal lives differently" to "let's somehow flip that to bring back Nazi medicine."
@domsnow6418
10 ай бұрын
I cannot speak for vegans generally but what makes me angry / sad / disappointed is not that people don’t care, but that some come up with the same bad arguments over and over again.
@lucioh1575
10 ай бұрын
Why aren't you vegan? Not trying to be confrontational. Trying to make you think.
@domsnow6418
10 ай бұрын
@@lucioh1575 of course I am, I have been for years
@vasisimari92058
10 ай бұрын
@@domsnow6418Then you can speak for vegans. With one mention: ethics should be the main focus.
@domsnow6418
10 ай бұрын
@@vasisimari92058 nah, i tend not no speak for other people just because they share one single value. I tend to avoid tribalism like the plague. But myself yes, i am a vegan for ethical reasons
@vasisimari92058
10 ай бұрын
@@domsnow6418 every comment is a form of vegan activism and being an activist means you speak for the vegans. Activism has nothing to do with tribalism. You don't wanna fall into the pick-me-vegan trap, which is very convenient for anti-vegans.
@patrowan7206
9 ай бұрын
I recently watched and listened in horror as a sparrow screamed in agony while being torn apart by a hawk. The sounds were indistinguishable from what a human with a bird's voice might make, and I can no longer dismiss the suffering as that of a lesser being.
@stevenpham6734
5 ай бұрын
If you think they can suffer as much as us (which there is no good evidence to prove otherwise), then at what ground do you define them as lesser beings than us? Intelligence? Is there such a definition written in the laws of nature?
@KellyLCornell
10 ай бұрын
This is a topic I struggle with so much because it's so important to me but I can hardly even listen to animal welfare conversations because I get so emotional/ enraged.
@Brandon-os3qr
3 ай бұрын
Enraged by what?
@onlyguitar1001
10 ай бұрын
Go vegan Sam. You're smart enough to figure out how to do it properly and you know it's the right thing to do. The hope that you seem to have of happy animals being bred for consumption is not one we will find in the real world. There is simply not enough land and water. How many trees would need to be cut down and wildlife destroyed to make this a reality for mass consumption? Not to mention that we live in a capitalist society so farmers will produce livestock as cheaply as possibly to beat their competitors, meaning less consideration given to the animals. Veganism is the only way.
@andrewferrier3351
10 ай бұрын
Sam always coming through with the topics I’ve been looking at just when I want them
@evidencebased1
10 ай бұрын
I was most struck by Sam’s point that the success of the “suffering” experiments depends on how analogous the animal minds are to our own, and if that is the case then how can we say with confidence that we are not torturing them?
@gabrielgaidos7015
9 ай бұрын
"suffering experiments" are not allowed. Only physiological experiments are allowed and if pain is involved, anesthesia is mandatory.
@haaendaaz3619
9 ай бұрын
How can we, or anyone, say in confidence that we are hurting anyone? Everything we know is the result of chemicals and electrical impulses. We could be a brain in a jar for all we know, or super drugged up, or whatever. But we don’t. We don’t know that for sure. So we act in an ethical, respectful manner to all to prevent these “what if” hypotheticals. Think about the time in history people didn’t do that and horrors such as the Arab slave trade, chattel American slavery, genocidal wars, pillaging and raping, war time rapes, war as an entity, etc have been propagated in society.
@wvhollargirl7549
10 ай бұрын
I understand all too well the plight of animals in our current first world culture. The more those who are aware educate, the more we can change the culture. Peter Singer is an example of an animal rights hero.
@nathanmitchell7961
10 ай бұрын
Why does he not have viceral reaction to insect being killed if most things are equal in terms of its suffering?
@erikdahlstrom3561
10 ай бұрын
@@nathanmitchell7961 why would you think the suffering of an insect would be equal to a cow?
@nathanmitchell7961
10 ай бұрын
Because the logic is "All lives are of equal value, its the suffering we should focus on"@@erikdahlstrom3561
@Brandon-os3qr
3 ай бұрын
@@nathanmitchell79616 months later, but in case you're curious as to the answer, it's the notion that "capacity for suffering" might be a spectrum as opposed to JUST a yes/no. So essentially: - is a particular being worthy of moral consideration = are they capable of suffering AND ALSO - HOW MUCH moral consideration should we give to a particular being = how MUCH suffering are they capable of And what's discussed in the parts you refer to is how there are still SOME question marks
@nathanmitchell7961
3 ай бұрын
@@erikdahlstrom3561 Why is it not
@drybie
10 ай бұрын
Thank you. Great discussion.
@migarsormrapophis2755
10 ай бұрын
"We can't be certain that insects feel pain" - Singer. Wow, really lost me right there. Bees, the specific example Sam gave, are capable of linguistic displacement (the ability to communicate abstract information about concepts that are distant in time or space). The idea that there's a reasonable doubt that they're 'advanced' enough to feel pain is crazy.
@reedclippings8991
10 ай бұрын
If there's something that it's like to be you, then your interests deserve consideration. The only way to live consistently with this idea, in the real world, the current one, is to be vegan. However hard you think it is. It's like 40% that hard.
@erikdahlstrom3561
10 ай бұрын
10% that hard, its not very hard if you are in a first world country and above the poverty line, especially if you are in/near a city.
@ToweringToska
10 ай бұрын
@@erikdahlstrom3561 In my experience it's much easier to cook vegan and much easier to shop vegan, but I'm not sure how common my fortune is for having brands upon brands of vegan protein products in every grocer I visit.
@hafman715
9 ай бұрын
Thank you for this. It’s the most neglected aspect of our inhumanity.
@sunnyinvladivostok
10 ай бұрын
When we have a cost-effective option for lab-grown meat, itll be hard to justify any kind of animal farming / consumption
@rasputozen
10 ай бұрын
I've got great news! You don't need to eat meat for protein or any nutrient. You can get all of the nutrition found in meat (and more) from beans, legumes, mushrooms, grains, nuts, seeds, veggies and fruit.
@ChrisJWinn
10 ай бұрын
I argue it's hard to justify now. Most people just seem 100% determined to eat murdered animals for taste pleasure. Seems extremely shallow imho.
@domsnow6418
10 ай бұрын
There will probably still be some underground rings of people who prefer to eat the „real deal“
@domsnow6418
10 ай бұрын
@@feklar3470 let‘s hope so 👏🏻
@sunnyinvladivostok
10 ай бұрын
@@rasputozen you don't need to convince me of that, you need to convince 8 billion others on the planet. Lab meat is more viable
@ericb2017
10 ай бұрын
fuck I can barely finish this. it’s infuriating. do I really have what it takes to become an animal activist? I mean if there’s one thing in life that pisses me off it’s animal cruelty, but what do I really do about it, ever?
@rasputozen
10 ай бұрын
Stop eating them and their secretions for a start.
@domsnow6418
10 ай бұрын
It hurts, that much is true. Just do what you can mate, no one is ever gonna be perfect.
@lucioh1575
10 ай бұрын
Hey Eric, I can definitely recommend different ways through which you can help animals, including street outreach. Reply if you're interested. :)
@arambarsamian6312
10 ай бұрын
@@domsnow6418it’s not about perfection. But simple choices we make several times a day have a profound affect on individual animals. If we eat bacon and eggs for breakfast, chicken for lunch, and steak for dinner, that’s ordering the killing of a pig, a chicken and the male chicks that are a causality of the egg industry, and a cow. Or one can eat plants and thus abstain from ordering the killing of those individuals, thus decreasing the demand that other animals take their place.
@bertt_y
10 ай бұрын
Snowball effect, plant a seed, use whatever metaphor you want.. but if you live a good vegan life, the people will around you will see, you can speak up about it.. The longer I'm vegan the more I feel the sense of urgency to speak up for the animals and let people know we can live a healthier longer life eating a whole foods plant based diet, and logically, for the planet.. we feed 80 billion land animals food and fresh water.. yet there's still getting on for a billion starving people on earth.. we could free up 75% if the world switched to a plant based diet.. we could rewild many parts of the world, grow tons of food and still have enough room for the ever expanding humankind. If we can, we should.
@yuumbaalam
10 ай бұрын
I can't understand how he can still laugh at having steak while having a conversation with Peter SInger about animal right, it's unfathomable to me....
@peteMickeal33
10 ай бұрын
deep down sam knows animal rights are bullshit.
@strathdee8825
10 ай бұрын
This is a completely moral blind spot for almost every civilisation throughout history. There is just simply no reason that most of us should consume (almost) any animal product whatsoever.
@domsnow6418
10 ай бұрын
Maybe the Inuit or sth, but certainly not people with access to supermarkets
@lucioh1575
10 ай бұрын
You should go vegan.
@strathdee8825
10 ай бұрын
@@lucioh1575 I am.
@lucioh1575
10 ай бұрын
Awesome, same. @@strathdee8825
@Woof45
10 ай бұрын
Meat tastes good, vegetables don't fill me.
@dawn8542
10 ай бұрын
I was a big Sam Harris fan. I watched him Debate William Lane Craig at the University of Notre Dame about religion. I was reading and watching everything I could by him and the 4 horsemen. And was traveling to see many scientists talk against religion and the idea of a god. It was, to me about right vs wrong. And science. I feel the exact same way about veganism. I have several activities that I listen to. And to hear Sam's opinion on the welfare of animals has made me lose all respect for the man. Once again, we are talking about the social issues of the times. And Sam is on the wrong side of history. Same with Neil Degrasse Tyson. What a fucking shame.
@niche657
9 ай бұрын
The actual shame is people like you failing to understand his reasoning. As, if you’d understood it, this comment wouldn’t have been written
@edusch
9 ай бұрын
@@niche657it is really easy to understand his reasoning. Basically all vegans had this reasoning before turning vegan. Easy to understand, but difficult to agree. It is morally blind
@herbivorizepredators1074
10 ай бұрын
If a being has a good life do they not then have an interest and desire to continue to live that we have no right to thwart and in fact have a positive duty to protect?
@olivermaier-landshut3047
10 ай бұрын
I really like this philosophy.
@Cusnpbzn
10 ай бұрын
I always thought that to have rights you also had to have equal responsibilities. Since animals don't have the latter they can't have the former. Any attempt to give animals rights is like Israel assuming that Hamas will play by their same rules. Since Hamas does not play by the same rules of combat as Israel, any advantage the rules might give them need not be extended to them. The concept of rights was created inside the world view of Western Civilization. I support this world view but I am very skeptical that it can be applied to animals. If you assume it's a crime to kill an animal, you are also assuming that your point of view is universally applicable. You are forcing your view on animals. Is it true? No one knows. There's plenty of evidence that a plant based diet is better. There's little evidence that it's unethical to kill animals.
@charlesjohnson364
10 ай бұрын
Debate V E G A N G A I N S
@CaptainFuzzbottom
10 ай бұрын
I would subscribe for that.
@migarsormrapophis2755
10 ай бұрын
lol
@wetyuu
10 ай бұрын
😂
@JaromEubanks
10 ай бұрын
There are better vegan debaters out there.
@Genghis_Sean_
10 ай бұрын
Dr Avi or Nutrivore would fucking decimate Sam
@OhManTFE
10 ай бұрын
Please comment on Ayaan Hirsi Ali now identifying as some type of christian???
@erniehudson1
10 ай бұрын
Very important subject!
@dmanson4649
10 ай бұрын
Now go on a speaking tour of the Muslim world and China & say the same things. This time replace Christianity with Islam in your admonitions in the opening.
@Kar0n
9 ай бұрын
I know this episode is about animals but since it touches a lot on effective altruism I'm curios how you reconcile your views on effective altruism and utilitarianism while considering the number of "collateral" civilians killed the latest conflict.
@erowan1389
10 ай бұрын
Every sperm is not sacred. Livestock not being born does not cause suffering to the phantom animal.
@theflyingdutchman_01
10 ай бұрын
just imagine if humans had never existed, or would perish all of a sudden… nature would be so much in balance… all living things would have been, or would be, so much better off without us… the 100 or so billion of us that have existed up to now have inflicted so much pain and suffering on other living things… shame on us for eternity…
@ToweringToska
10 ай бұрын
I imagine that a lot, I dream of circumstances like that. I appreciate your compassionate words and empathize, living in this forlorn world, driven to love and protect all the fragile beautiful things that we can hardly ever save and can never hold onto for long. You are nice though, you deserve to feel good about that at least. Thanks for trying. ^ ^
@TrackinDaMeta
10 ай бұрын
The points regarding the torture of animals were spot on. Terrible stuff
@mimetype
10 ай бұрын
I've seen what the Chinese routinely do to dogs, gives me nightmares.
@vasisimari92058
10 ай бұрын
Fuck welfarism, vegans are abolitionists. We have the non-vegans to take care of welfarism n squabble amongst each other.
@vasisimari92058
10 ай бұрын
@@mimetypewhat's the moral difference between a dog and a pig ? Or a cow? A lamb? A chicken?
@mimetype
10 ай бұрын
@@vasisimari92058 Pigs, Cows, Lambs and Chicken aren't routinely thrown alive into boiling oil, to emerge still alive screaming in agony.
@vasisimari92058
10 ай бұрын
@@mimetype you don't know shit about standard practices in the Animal Industry. Obviously youtube is on your side, 'cause they delete my comment every time I try to describe it.
@JohnPritzlaff
10 ай бұрын
Man I love this podcast. Cleaning my truck under extreme duress and this is just *chef's kiss* *muah* perfect 😅
@nathanmitchell7961
10 ай бұрын
So if we had a burning building with your disabled child inside and your pet chicken, which one are you going to grab?
@domsnow6418
10 ай бұрын
The child of course, even I am that much of s speciecist. Also you‘ll go to jail for letting the child burn.
@nathanmitchell7961
10 ай бұрын
Great, so we view human to have higher moral agency then animals.@@domsnow6418
@nathanmitchell7961
10 ай бұрын
I dont see how this is related to my analogy. Too be more specific, in my analogy you are limited on time and restricted to making the moral choice or choosing who to save. A good majority of people, i assume, would save their baby because the baby holds higher moral value than your chicken.@@tomz5700
@lucioh1575
10 ай бұрын
@@nathanmitchell7961 Okay, and? It doesn't justify paying for animal abuse when you get a burger.
@nathanmitchell7961
10 ай бұрын
@@lucioh1575 My point is exactly why my analogy is so extreme because its easy to consider vigilant morality when you arent forced or in a pressured complicated moral situation. WE place the value on humans over animals because its the only experience we can relate too.
@missshroom5512
7 ай бұрын
I’m with Sam…where in the world are they getting interns or anyone for that matter to perform these experiments
@RealLifeMassMultiplayerRPG
10 ай бұрын
thx for talking about this
@ruzg
10 ай бұрын
Awesome
@colin7917
10 ай бұрын
Go vegan
@nirvonna
10 ай бұрын
I wish that it was restated where one could find the conversation between Peter Singer and the female Buddhist monastic from Thailand at the end of that discussion. I became interested as I listened and hoped that information would be offered at the end of that bit. I’m having a hard time finding it. Can anyone help?
@rimburemus7587
10 ай бұрын
it's an upcoming book soon to be published: the buddhist and the ethicist
@VimDoozy
10 ай бұрын
It always makes me grin a little when the outro music starts to play as the volume of the guest's voice gradually fades. It's like when an award recipient is taking to long to wrap up their acceptance speech. It's like, "You've had your moment, Peter. Be on your own way."
@drudiogenes8544
10 ай бұрын
But really it's non-subscribers being told to be on our own way.. 🤣
@theflyingdutchman_01
10 ай бұрын
when you speak about what the N@z!s did to the Jews, you might want to also look into “Unit 731” in Russia, or human vivisection camps in Japan (and more importantly, how the Americans dealt with this issue after the war)… just to make a point as to what kind of cruelties humans are capable of inflicting on other living creatures, NOT only on animals… and it wasNOT only the N@z!s !!!
@erowan1389
10 ай бұрын
Glad to see tgia conversation, but I was only able to hear the short version. I am not in agreement that torturing an animal is ever juatified to save a human. Knowing all vertebrates, many invertebrates, and possibly all animals feel pain equates to unethical and immoral action when one knowingly and intentionally causes another pain. I heard no rationale for ranking the pain of a human as being more important than the pain of a mouse or an ant. Arguing that humans can consider their mortality does not apply to a human child, and is irrelevant to the experience of pain. There is no justifiable reason for humans to cause pain in one innocent animal to relieve pain in another, even themselves or their kids. Self-defense against an opponent is the only exception, but even that does not mean torture or slavery should ever be allowed. Turturing mice to prevent cancer or other afflictions in humans is an abomination and needs to stop.
@ToweringToska
10 ай бұрын
I just wanna say that you are as right as you possibly could be about this and your rational properly empathetic take did a great job of reminding me that people aren't all unfixably horrible. ^__^ *veggytarian who's rescued bugs and dogs since he was single digits old and aches inside for animals all over the world enough to greatly impact his health*
@mattpierce5009
10 ай бұрын
"There is no justifiable reason for humans to cause pain in one innocent animal to relieve pain in another, even themselves or their kids" You're a monster.
@lhurst9550
10 ай бұрын
11:25 Are you really that ignorant on the world history of slavery? I believe you are.
@ronalddepesa6221
10 ай бұрын
What was wrong? Not factual?
@lhurst9550
10 ай бұрын
@@ronalddepesa6221 Europeans did not go to Africa and "catch" then sell humans into slavery. It was the slave 'trade'; they bought slaves from the tribes of Africa and re-sold them to the buyers. Slavery has been a part of human existance since before civilization. It took white europeans to stop it, or at least stop the practice as common place. Fact is there are more slaves today than any time humans have existed. All the speaker did was repeat the lie of Roots the TV miniseries.
@traviswadezinn
10 ай бұрын
Important topic - good episode
@bcam266
10 ай бұрын
Is 24,000 enough dead for you Sam??
@sirmaumur4056
9 ай бұрын
A very good discussion… the one major thing to add is the pain of those who are left behind when some one is dead. It is not only the pain nor the death of the individual. That is why the example of the cephalic baby feels shocking. Some animals feel the pain when a loved animal dies, baboons, whales, dogs…. But it is not true for many. I believe this adds to the hierarchy of species significantly…
@Ritch98777
10 ай бұрын
This is a brilliant conversation - measured arguments and healthy debate
@hmmmahroof3602
5 ай бұрын
Few ideas to help animals. 1. Help the developing nations to sterilize stray dogs and cats. 2.stop shipping animals for killing. 3.introduce anaesthesia in animal slaughter. 4.introduce anaesthesia before killing of harmful animals. eg rats 5.ban animal fighting compaigns 6.ban cooking alive any animal
@endoalley680
10 ай бұрын
Does this line of reasoning lead us to say that advocating the removal of Arab Muslims from Gaza who lead quite miserable lives. And replacing them with Israeli Jews who will lead much happier and more fulfilling lives, is a morally positive position to take?
@SebyVarghese-v1y
7 ай бұрын
There can be a way to break bias in social media and reduce the power of people with large followers to influence opinion on social media platforms. Similar to comments section, we can add a views (viewpoints or connections or context) section - Where anyone can add any view related to the post and people can like and react to the view just like the post. Context 1/ #keyword combo : specific context to the post in limited words like in twitter Context 2 : Most important part of the context section could be checking the balance b/w different context as a percentage or in a pie chart. This distribution could tell if the discussion is biased or balanced, majorititarian view or nuanced. Multiple inferences could be drawn from the distribution of context, views, sides or connections.
@carlosveraandrada4181
2 ай бұрын
It is good to avoid unnecesary animal pain, but let s not confuse some basic concepts: Singer said that a chimp rapes a female chimp. That term is absolutely absurd when speaking about non human animals.
@fahidcharkaoui612
10 ай бұрын
hi
@QuixoticIgnotism
10 ай бұрын
Love you Sam
@ansarikashif7
9 ай бұрын
What I wonder about Sam is he is discussing suffering of Animals and has not said a word of unimaginable human suffering currently being inflicted upon Gazans. Being an Achiest he has favored one religion over other and that raises a lot of questions on his philosophy.
@erowan1389
10 ай бұрын
Who said an animal is "happy" living in captivity on a hobby farm? Animals have instincts and urges to roam, breed and interact within their own species groups. I would rather be a wild animal and face the hardships among my kin than in a zoo and stuck with cellmates I may hate.
@dawn8542
10 ай бұрын
Considering Peter isn't an abolitionist, he isn't really helping animals at all and is actually counterproductive. Listen to Gary Francione's speech on that.
@pichajooli1816
10 ай бұрын
#govegan
@danhurley9028
9 ай бұрын
Why are you and this fellow talking about real issues like ecological overreach dramatic increases in usage of fossil fuels and rapidly approaching societal collapse ie willim Rees
@Eric-ot7en
10 ай бұрын
This talk really struck me. Animals feel pain like we do. I’m 20 min in. I’m out too much to handle
@bryanutility9609
10 ай бұрын
So what if animals feel pain? What in life justifies pain is what you should ask? Life requires death. It’s just physics. Embrace it. Don’t let some nerd charlatan emotionally manipulate you with abstractions. Say yes to life!
@ToweringToska
10 ай бұрын
@@bryanutility9609 Death is different from pain though, death is not suffering. Suffering is horrible, if it weren't then you wouldn't try to avoid suffering. Whenever suffering can be avoided or alleviated we should try our bests to avoid or alleviate it.
@bryanutility9609
10 ай бұрын
@@ToweringToska The risk of suffering is the only thing that gives you the ability to do good deeds, by definition. Every time I go to the dentist I refuse to use anesthetic because embracing the pain makes me a stronger person. Not sure how you separate pain and suffering other than it’s a mindset and that can be overcome through attitude. The only place there is zero pain & suffering while dead. If that is your goal then you are pro-death.
@ToweringToska
10 ай бұрын
@@bryanutility9609 You're a wild one, metal as fuck! : > Not everyone likes suffering though. Another thing is there are scales, the suffering of not eating for a few days for instance is I think a fine experience, the suffering of a mentally disabled person living 30 years in a household with a monstrously abusive parent however, not so helpful in the grand scheme of things! Scale again, pain is helpful to staying alive and that's why we all got it, sure. But its whole purpose is to be avoided, to show us what we SHOULDN'T let happen to ourselves. Pain isn't just there for you to enjoy BDSM, it's there to tell us when there's a problem. XD And people put animals through lots of horribly problematic circumstances, causing them extreme pain. That answer your "So what?" question sufficiently? Hope so.
@bryanutility9609
10 ай бұрын
@@ToweringToska Most people are not living lives of balance. They will avoid exercise because it’s hard but endure obesity which is suffering. It’s a matter of balance, of sacrifice let’s say. And it’s people who want a world without sacrifice who are “other worldly”. I don’t respect that. You can call it scale sure. As far as scale goes you could say “unnecessary suffering”.
@RobespierreThePoof
5 ай бұрын
Not a fan of Singers contribution to the world, mostly because he allowed himself to get too far ahead of the science.
@keithcp85
10 ай бұрын
10% pre tax. Eek. Maybe if you’re making 250k+
@juliodiaz3920
10 ай бұрын
Sam Harris, so you are against extremism, but not when it comes to animals? 🤔 who is speciessi?
@Jules-Is-a-Guy
10 ай бұрын
Sam, I have a rndm suggestion, pls have on George Will.
@whatsdoin2392
8 ай бұрын
When you can not say that we should value human life over animal life then your moral compass is set to hell.
@roadrunner9622
8 ай бұрын
Growing up in the 1970's/80's, the idea "animals can't feel pain" was accepted by a significant part of the population.
@davidwatson2399
7 ай бұрын
And it was wrong
@Finite8614
10 ай бұрын
The notion that certain groups are treated or act "like animals" often carries an underlying assumption of human superiority. This brings up an important question: does this presumed superiority extend to our morals and ethics?
@bryanutility9609
10 ай бұрын
100% these nerds aren’t moral they’re justifying their petty weakness and desire for pathetic comfort. They are rabbits amongst lions.
@lazarus_phenomenon9581
10 ай бұрын
Tell a predator in nature that he’s harming animals and should be a vegan. I find this topic pointless. Everything that lives has to kill something else to live. Can say the same about vegans, who’s to say those plants didn’t want to live in sunshine and not be ripped out and chewed up.
@theflyingdutchman_01
10 ай бұрын
you seem to have missed the point entirely…
@FitzGeraldBurgess-g6o
16 күн бұрын
Jackson Michael Hall Gary Jackson Jessica
@RomanticZero
10 ай бұрын
Surprised Peter didn't take you up on the point about the president; when we're discussing the value of two comparative lives (in this case, both human, sentient, etc.), we're talking about their moral value. Holding the office of US president doesn't make your life more morally valuable than any other. Functional value is something else entirely, but even if this was the yardstick, the office of president is elected and welcomes a wide range of people regardless of skill level -- this is not a function that only the person is capable of. To say we can't 'factually' (whatever that means) defend the notion that all human lives are equal by calling up an analogy from everyday life in which people are treated differently is not relevant to the question of moral value.
@SkyGlitchGalaxy
10 ай бұрын
Morals are a set of standards that enable people to live cooperatively in groups. So yes, of course you can morally value someones live more than another person. We do it everyday. I value my daughters live more than any other on earth. Then my wife. If you want to have a society of 300 Million people, it is absolutely moral for the state to value the life of the president more than any other person. He wouldn't be around lomg, if we didn't.
@RomanticZero
10 ай бұрын
@@SkyGlitchGalaxy You're interchanging at least two different definitions of 'moral' here, and neither in the same sense as Peter Singer, so your point is redundant. Always focus on the question and points at hand, not your own (in this instance, especially confused) interpretation of terms.
@SkyGlitchGalaxy
10 ай бұрын
@@RomanticZero No, I am sticking with the definition of Morals, and explaining the reason its good to have them. The point of having human morals, is to allow us to live and prosper together, not virtue signal on the internet.
@RomanticZero
10 ай бұрын
@@SkyGlitchGalaxy I can't overemphasise how badly you have misinterpreted the original point and the concept of moral value/worth here. An individual having moral value/worth is not to do with whether their actions correspond with normative morality.
@ProgPiglet
10 ай бұрын
SAM STOP TRYING TO MAKE "PODCATCHER" A THING. it's the most obnoxious word in the english language
@johnimusic12
10 ай бұрын
Look at you.....stop whining 😂
@domsnow6418
10 ай бұрын
Catch the pod man 🌊 🏄
@Time_to_Stop_Animal_Cruelty
10 ай бұрын
Thank u for discussing about this... I'm a coward so can't listen to this - 말 못하는 동물들이 너무 불쌍해. True human goodness, in all its purity and freedom, can come to the fore only when its recipient has no power. Mankind's true moral test, its fundamental test (which is deeply buried from view), consists of its attitude towards those who are at its mercy: animals. And in this respect mankind has suffered a fundamental debacle, a debacle so fundamental that all others stem from it. - Milan Kundera
@gnubbiersh647
10 ай бұрын
im not sure i can forgive chickens for being speciesist against worms.
@wimsickle6173
10 ай бұрын
You're a chicken
@ToweringToska
10 ай бұрын
But chickens aren't, they're opportunistic by necessity, that's all they've got. : (
@gnubbiersh647
10 ай бұрын
@@ToweringToska same as humans
@ToweringToska
10 ай бұрын
@@gnubbiersh647 ...No? Please pay attention. We have grocery stores, we have plenty of options all the time. If we choose to hurt others when we don't need to, which we don't, then we're subjugating others and telling ourselves it's okay because they're different. Humans ignoring other animals' feelings so they can kill them is what we call specism, it's a thing we can have, or much preferably choose not to have. Chickens meanwhile live in a much tinier world with so much fewer options that they've basically got none. A chicken is not prejudice for eating worms, shut that up, it's embarrassing to try to justify stupidity by saying other exponentially less intelligent and privileged animals do it too. Even if you're just miming another dumb comment you heard and feel detached and impersonal from it, the truth is it's you, you are everything you say, we are nothing but what we put out there. Try to be compassionate whenever you're walking into an argument you don't care about, because you don't know how much this matters.
@ToweringToska
10 ай бұрын
@@gnubbiersh647 Daw that was really mean, tahah, sorry, if you're a kid that beating probably sucked. Definitely try to be accountable though, stand up for what's right and respect everyone else who does too.
@remyleo
10 ай бұрын
I don't know how it happened, but i came here thinking this was an Animals fighting back video by Ozzy Man. Like drinking OJ when you thought it was milk.
@smartbart80
10 ай бұрын
”The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
@keithhunt5328
6 ай бұрын
Peter singer defended infanticide.
@Soubhik12345.
Ай бұрын
God bless Peter Singer 💙
@jasonbraun127
10 ай бұрын
Too many people see the discussion of animal rights as a simple question of “Is it okay to eat meat“ and they‘re completely missing the point. We should all be able to agree that torturing and killing animals in the billions just because we like the taste of it is morally indefensible. Once we get to the point where nearly all meat you could get came from an animal that had a healthy and normal life up to the moment of slaughter then we can start having a discussion about the morality of actually eating it but that point is so far away in the future that we might es well be discussing space travel.
@BicycleFunk
10 ай бұрын
It is not only easy to take up a vegan diet, but also good for yourself and others. Learn to cook and grow food - you'll thank yourself later.
@cmecre8629
10 ай бұрын
wish i didn't listen to this
@retromograph3893
10 ай бұрын
Problem: organic farms with free-roaming animals are the absolute worst for CO2 emissions, in terms of emissions per each kilo of meat produced..... so although these farms will tick the animal welfare box, they are a disaster for the environment if they become widespread. To be clear, I'm against all meat eating.
@retromograph3893
10 ай бұрын
you forgot to quote (or failed to understand?) the rest of my sentence: " in terms of emissions per each kilo of meat produced" .... so the punchline is that not only is it impossible to meet the world's meat demand through organic methods, it would be a disaster for the planet if you did! The takeaway? Don't eat any meat!@@tamhiker1
@krunkle5136
10 ай бұрын
Singer is a telescopic philanthropist. As beautiful as effective altruism is, it advocates unwitting stakeless aid, and a theory that humans are interchangeable.
@IsitReallyrealreally
10 ай бұрын
‘Absolute Necessities’ are not the world most live in. And, really, for many, it is.
@IsitReallyrealreally
10 ай бұрын
#wearetheflaw
@sircharlesnot
10 ай бұрын
13:42 so this guy should be anti abortion If he is pro abortion he is morally inconsistent
@rasputozen
10 ай бұрын
I guarantee you, no matter what his belief is on abortion, he's not aborted a single fetus/baby or encouraged anyone to do so in his entire life. And yet you're paying for animals to be tortured 2-3 times a day, every single day.
@sircharlesnot
10 ай бұрын
@rasputozen that's a terrible argument! It is like saying I never actually slaughtered any animals so I can eat animals?!?!
@lucioh1575
10 ай бұрын
@@sircharlesnot You're paying for them to be slaughtered, aren't you? In any case, respect for bodily autonomy is an easy concept to understand. Your body belongs to you. You have no duty to use it to save others if you don't want to. No one should be forced to donate blood or organs even if it saves lives, same goes with using a uterus. If we apply the same to animals, we shouldn't slaughter them against their consent. If anything, you could say spaying cats could be inconsistent in that regard.
@sircharlesnot
10 ай бұрын
@lucioh1575 your argument is again inconsistent. In the same way, you can never ask the animals you can't ask the fetus if it wants to get chopped up?!?!
@SkyGlitchGalaxy
10 ай бұрын
Grew up on a farm. Give me the life of a farm animal over a wild animal any day of the week. How would you like being a wild european rabbit. Covered in fleas, ticks and invested with worms. Constantly on the look out and in a panic for the day u get ripped to peices and eaten. And there is no social welfare for wild animals, when you get jacked, you children die starvation. 3 out of 4 wild rabbits are dead witin the first year of life. Whats Peter Singer solution to improve the lot of wild rabbits? But no... people are eating chicken, so focus on that. Can you imagine the dystopian societies these ethics professors dream of.
@domsnow6418
10 ай бұрын
Except one is completely unnecessary
@WhiteRussianBC
10 ай бұрын
Wild animal suffering is a big topic in the vegan movement. Peter Singer wrote about it in Animal Liberation Now (the updated version of Animal Liberation). Peter argues that it's much easier to reduce the suffering of farm animals (through legislation), but he acknowledges that wild animal suffering is also a problem.
@ToweringToska
10 ай бұрын
Yeah... what domsnow6418 said. We'd love to improve the lives of wild animals, of course, but we can't really do that. Every farmed animal does not equal one less wild animal, because we're creating the farm animals. The only thing that would equal one less wild suffering animal is removing a wild animal, abducting them and making them live with us, and they really really don't want us to, they care about stuff out there. You don't have to farm animals.
@terrybly3458
10 ай бұрын
U
@scottclifford5093
10 ай бұрын
I thought - aah! Atom Heart Mother by Pink Floyd
@sockinvaders
10 ай бұрын
It seems to me the natural world cares little about suffering. Its an immensely cruel world where most beings are trying to eat other beings, mostly while alive. We have come along and spread a desire to not cause pain. And for the most part we've improved on nature. But where we fail terribly is in factory farming where creatured are born into a most dystopian reality. Born to imprisoned mothers, kept permanently in the control of their captors. I think most of us would agree that a quick death is preferable to being imprisoned and forced to give birth to children who will be taken away and eaten by our captors. Whenever we come across something like this in the news, where someone has been held for decades in a basement, these are the most shocking stories. I dont disagree with eating meat. But i think we owe it to every creature to have a full life. To be in nature, to compete and have a normal life. And becoming our food only at the end of a full life.
@jeremytan739
10 ай бұрын
Have we improved on nature when climate change and habitat destruction is killing more animals than every non-human predators ever could?
@d0lvl0
10 ай бұрын
Why become food at all? Why can't we just eat a fully healthy diet made up of non-sentient life instead?
@sockinvaders
10 ай бұрын
we've improved on the survival of the fittest, cruelty that has existed for millenia and would exist more if not for us. We've managed to create societies where most of us wont be eaten unexpectedly, we wont be murdered randomly on the street, we can live long, happy lives and die at old age. and we've applied these principles to dogs, cats and other creatures that thrive in our world. If you study human societies over the last few thousands years, you can see clear progress. Unfortunately technology has created nightmare dystopias for many of our farm animals. @@jeremytan739
@sockinvaders
10 ай бұрын
why would we? Meat tastes amazing. And for good reason. My dogs eat meat. My family pet cats ate meat. Lions eat meat. Sharks eat meat. Orcas eat meat. dolphins eat meat. I see no moral reason why we shouldnt eat meat. But given what we know, there's a moral incentive to minimise pain and suffering to those things we eat. I won't eat lamb for example or fois gras out of principle, or halal which sounds truly horrendous. @@d0lvl0
@nevis4567
10 ай бұрын
Seems to me like "we owe it to every creature to have a full life" and purchasing meat or hunting are contradictory statements. I think we haven't fully grasped that as a species.
@matthewkelso3280
10 ай бұрын
Really weird that Sam likes me.
@unsilencedderp9411
10 ай бұрын
26:20 people actually do have OCD when it comes to pointing guns at things.
@starczarar
10 ай бұрын
"Members of our species have a higher moral standing." We should save a human over a chicken, right?
@SuperAwesomedude20
10 ай бұрын
Yes Peter has always made that a point
@flyingfig12
10 ай бұрын
Why not both?
@andyl8055
10 ай бұрын
Why quote him out of context on such an important topic? His point in that sentence had nothing to do with saving humans instead of chickens.
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