Which of your homemade membranes do you find work best, pva glutamic acid or dechlorinated PVC?
@mati141551
Жыл бұрын
Hi. Do I think right? Is it enough to apply a solution of glutamic acid, hydrochloric acid and PVA to the cloth from both sides? Can you tell me in what proportions? Is it enough to leave the membrane for a week at room temperature for it to cross-link sufficiently? I would like to try to use a membrane for a pure hydrogen generator and I wonder if it will be suitable for this purpose using an electrolyte in the form of a KOH solution in water
@CatboyChemicalSociety
Жыл бұрын
while I have gotten room temperature crosslinking after leaving the solution out for 2 weeks and realizing I couldnt dissolve the hard plastic with water. I usually heat it up to speed the process. if you want to use this for a hydrogen generator then yea this works although this is mainly an anion resin and if you replace the glutamic acid with citric acid then it can be a cation resin. but the citric acid PVA mixture cannot crosslink at room temperature.
@mati141551
Жыл бұрын
@@CatboyChemicalSociety I understand, and what would be the minimum temperature and cross-linking time of PVA with citric acid? I ask because instead of a cloth I wanted to use horticultural fleece, and it melts at a temperature above 115C
@CatboyChemicalSociety
Жыл бұрын
@@mati141551 gotta change your substrate because you need a temp of atleast 150C.
@mati141551
Жыл бұрын
@@CatboyChemicalSociety OK thank you for the information
@niocalsgreogiro
Жыл бұрын
It looks pretty ghetto, but the important thing is that it's a great money and time saver, thanks :3
@ralfvk.4571
11 ай бұрын
Interesting experiment! Have you already tested it out, to make H2SO4 from Sulfates?
@CatboyChemicalSociety
11 ай бұрын
yes I have one video on it from CaSO4 to H2SO4.
@JonathanMiller-y8q
8 ай бұрын
So are you repeatedly coating it with the PVA glutamic acid HCL solution then microwaving it for 3 minutes until it looks just right?
@CatboyChemicalSociety
8 ай бұрын
microwaving helps make baking times shorter but yes because I have a gas oven what I do is let it get hot and turn it off and just let the residual heat bake it and pull it out 30 mins later.
@thrdel
6 ай бұрын
I've got my glutamic acid from reacting MSG and sulfuric acid . Than added just enough HCl to dissolve the 4g glutamic acid so I can mix it with the PVA glue. Painted on the cloth and dried. Then I used a heat gun to get it to a nice golden brown color. Are there any visible signs I can observe if the crosslink occured apart from the tons of tiny shiny spots? The result is kinda brittle now, it breaks very easy . Could it be because of the cloth I used or is it normal ?
@CatboyChemicalSociety
6 ай бұрын
Brittleness is due to crosslinking and one of the ways to remedy this is with a good ratio of crosslinker(glutamic) to polymer (PVA) you'd have to experiment though. The golden brown color is one indication of crosslinking but the best test is to see if the coating dissolves in water post baking. You can make small test strips along with your main sheet to dunk in water after some time while you bake.
@CatboyChemicalSociety
6 ай бұрын
The more crosslinked the more brittle so maybe cut down on the amount of glutamic you used
@thrdel
6 ай бұрын
@@CatboyChemicalSociety Thanks. I will try with a different cloth, maybe something less "spongy" than the one I used. I've mixed in 3.5g of glutamic acid hydrochloride with the PVA for 2 sheets of 200x200 but maybe they sucked in a bit too much . I'll try something thinner and see how it goes .
@thrdel
6 ай бұрын
@@CatboyChemicalSociety Love the learning process 😉 Thanks for the reply.
@CatboyChemicalSociety
6 ай бұрын
@@thrdel reducing glutamic makes the membrane less crosslinked and less brittle but makes the polymer more hydrophillic. theres a nice ratio where it acts like a hydrogel and another where its like a soft plastic so much that I can make fishing lures out of the resin.
@sinaTonewood
Жыл бұрын
is this membrane resistant to strong bases like NaOH? and where can I purchase glutamic acid?
@CatboyChemicalSociety
Жыл бұрын
Go buy msg from super market weight out citric acid 1:1 dissolve in 2 solutions mix together and glutamic acid precipitates and monododium citrate stays in solution. Putting in refrigerator or freezer crashes out more glutamic acid.
@bromisovalum8417
6 ай бұрын
You can find cheap bags of MSG (monosodium glutamate) at any Asian supermarket, Ajinomoto is the main brand. Dissolve 1 part MSG in 4 parts water, and neutralize with the required amount of 1M aq. HCl. Heat to boiling with a dash of activated carbon, filter, let cool to room temperature, put in the freezer overnight and filter off the glutamic acid, which is of high purity. Wash the sparkling white crystals with some ice water. Glutamic acid prepared like this is of high quality. Attempts at recrystallisation will actually decrease purity and yield owing to the formation of pyrrolidone-carboxylic acid
@SodiumInteresting
Жыл бұрын
Can I get this glutamic acid hcl from MSG crystals? Tasty Amino acids 🙃
@CatboyChemicalSociety
Жыл бұрын
I mean my 1st video shows that
@SodiumInteresting
Жыл бұрын
@@CatboyChemicalSociety thanks, I guess I missed that one
@TimJohnston-yl7je
Жыл бұрын
What is white gloop at start of video? were cloths treated with PVC glue and then soaked in NaOH??
@CatboyChemicalSociety
Жыл бұрын
it was a very shitty mixture of plain glutamic acid and PVA which made an emulsion and didnt crosslink. The clearer goop is a proper mix of glutamate hydrochloride and PVA which after discovering later can crosslink even at room temps given a week since even long soaking in hot water was not able to clean the bowl!! The substrate was treated with PVC then soaked in NaOH like usual.
@TimJohnston-yl7je
Жыл бұрын
@@CatboyChemicalSociety Thanks for prompt reply, I am getting very interested in ionomer membranes.... so many things become possible!!
@aadhithvarathan5432
Жыл бұрын
Hi, can we make anion exchange membrane from Cationic Surfactants like Benzalkonium Chloride? Don't they also repel cations and allow only anions to pass through?
@CatboyChemicalSociety
Жыл бұрын
if you can manage to incorporate them into the structure of a polymer but its really better to use an amine or a nitro group monomer and convert to amine after polymerization then convert amine to quaternary amine using methyl iodide.
@aadhithvarathan5432
Жыл бұрын
@@CatboyChemicalSociety Thank you
@farialorion5934
Жыл бұрын
Can be suitable for waste water electrolysis? 😊
@CatboyChemicalSociety
Жыл бұрын
Yes
@TeslaFactory
Жыл бұрын
So, the Glutamic acid undergoes condensation between the carboxylic acid and amine group to form polyamides, with the free carboxylic acids being available for ion transfer?
@CatboyChemicalSociety
Жыл бұрын
ok so I still am yet to test these membranes out but if polyamides are favored over esters then this maybe a problem or a good thing. anyway if its bad then I can use this as an alternative to PVC precoat since polyamides are quite chemically resistant and if it has free carboxylic acid then this will be an amazing novel cation resin. I really wonder if I made a cation or an anion resin.
@TeslaFactory
Жыл бұрын
@@CatboyChemicalSociety if you have carboxylic acids, then H+/cation exchange membrane, non?
@CatboyChemicalSociety
Жыл бұрын
@@TeslaFactory yes but I also originally hope that the carboxylic acid form crosslinks with the PVA chains which hopefully give rise to free amines which are anion exchange. I however had the thought in my mind that there is a possibility of polyamide formation which would form a cation resin instead but one that maybe leagues better than crosslinked PVA. I will have to do more testing to determine if that is the case.
@TeslaFactory
Жыл бұрын
@@CatboyChemicalSociety I'm not sure which would be favoured, polyamides vs PVA-COOH Cross linking reactions, but would definitely be cool to hear your results! Really fascinating stuff :)
@GreenCaulerpa
Жыл бұрын
@@CatboyChemicalSociety Try to trace back the mechanism. As far as I am concerned, the mechanism of condensation between carboxylic acids and 1*/2* amines is an addition elimination mechanism. The carboxylic oxygen withdraws electron density from the carboxylic carbon, hence allows for nucleophiles to attack, after proton transfer you will get a -H2O+ leaving group. Due to the higher electronegativity of nitrogen, it is the better nucleophile and polyamide formation is favored. If you add a little bit of acid to it as catalyst, the goal is to protonate the carboxylic oxygen firstly so you make it a better electrophile, unfortunately however -NH3+ is a weaker acid hence it will protonate firstly and unfortunately destroy they nucleophility. You should try adding -SO3H moieties to your membrane, try a polycondensation with appropriate sulfonated arenes (idk, something like sulfonated benzaldehyde, benzoic acid or a copolymer membrane with polystyrene sulfonate) [edit] I was thinking, you can use the protonation of amines to your advantage to favor ester formation if you want. The browning additionally does not indicate crosslinking but dehydration so you will get some C=C double bonds
@NilaSpeaksLoudly
7 ай бұрын
How do you make the glutamate hcl?
@CatboyChemicalSociety
7 ай бұрын
Take monosodium glutamate then 1st react with 1 weight equivalent of citric acid to precipitate glutamic acid which is poorly soluble. Then mix glutamic acid with 10% HCl minimal volume to dissolve or add corresponding 1 molar equivalent HCl for more accuracy.
@japanjapan3102
Жыл бұрын
can you use this to make sulfuric acid?
@CatboyChemicalSociety
Жыл бұрын
Yes but put it on an alkaline treated PVC substrate as shown in previous video. So it will be more chemically resistant
@japanjapan3102
Жыл бұрын
@@CatboyChemicalSociety for the last attempt what temperature did you use to esterify? also given this is an anion exchange membrane, is the calcium sulfate and sodium sulfate still necessary or can you just use calcium sulfate in both chambers? sorry if it is a dumb question but i think it only lets hydroxide ions through hence why the sodium sulfate is still necesary? or does the membrane also lets the sulfate anions?
@CatboyChemicalSociety
Жыл бұрын
@@japanjapan3102 140C is enough but someone who replicated these membranes got it to crosslink at 100C. Sodium sulfate is necessary and easily made by adding calcium sulfate into boiling NaOH solution. You can use NaOH directly mixed with CaSO4 in the cell with 2% by weight NaOH compared to CaSO4 but there will be a delay till sulfuric is produced which is not good since the anode chamber is either starter dilute sulfuric acid or pure water
@japanjapan3102
Жыл бұрын
@@CatboyChemicalSociety i guess what i don't understand is, if this only lets anion through then how can the sodium move to the cathode side in the production of sulfuric acid? sorry for the confusion
@CatboyChemicalSociety
Жыл бұрын
@@japanjapan3102 you put sodium containing stuff on cathode side only. If any sodium is in anode side then bisulfate is formed which is unwanted. The anode side is pure water or dilute sulfuric acid and cathode side is sodium and calcium sulfate or calcium sulfate with sodium hydroxide or sodium carbonate.
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