What ifs aside, I think it's supremely ironic that for the better part of a decade Anne wanted nothing more than for Catherine to drop dead. When Catherine finally obliged, it was the beginning of the end for Anne. Be careful what you wish for...
@hjahansouz
7 ай бұрын
You are absolutely right. Anne’s position was weakened by Katherine’s death not improved. The only way Anne could have survived was delivering a healthy boy. She also made a tactical error by threatening Cromwell. That made it a lot easier for Cromwell to stick the knife in Anne’s back. At the end, Henry would have chosen mistresses and Anne was not the type of person to turn a blind eye. She thought Henry took mistresses because of Katherine, not realizing Henry would get tired of her too. Their relationship was extremely volatile.
@maryh4650
7 ай бұрын
I sometimes think, he might of tried getting rid of her even if Anne had been delivered of a son. Tricky though it may have been.
@thehistory_student
7 ай бұрын
Such an interesting video! ❤ This ‘what if’ scenario is something I’ve never considered before. It definitely gets you thinking. I believe that Katherine’s death and Anne’s subsequent downfall were quite closely intertwined 😢 With Katherine no longer living and Anne conveniently ’removed’, the path was clear for marriage number three. But what if Jane Seymour was unable to provide Henry with a son? I often wonder what might have happened to her if, a few years into their marriage, they had healthy daughters, but still no son… Fascinating stuff 🧐
@123canadagirl
27 күн бұрын
She’d probably have been removed too
@thehistory_student
27 күн бұрын
@@123canadagirl Most likely 💔 Going by Henry’s track record…
@belladingdong3396
7 ай бұрын
It's so lovely to see you posting full length content more regularly again. We missed you and your wonderful insights!
@anneboleynfiles
7 ай бұрын
Thank you so much!
@belladingdong3396
7 ай бұрын
@@anneboleynfiles thank you so much! Your content and books got me through the pandemic! Sending you and yours love from sunny Alaska, Isabella
@randyherbrechtsmeier9769
7 ай бұрын
I've had a Stressful day. Yep another heart surgery on the 16th. Listening to you Calmed me down. Thanks Young Lady
@randyherbrechtsmeier9769
6 ай бұрын
Made it through it. Quadruple Bypass. In Hospital 1 week. Home for the Past 2. It Hurt. It Hurt bad. It's getting better now. Thanks for the Comment
@randyherbrechtsmeier9769
5 ай бұрын
Thank you
@tonyalogan5095
7 ай бұрын
I love your "what if" videos. Thank you Claire!! Watching your channel makes you feel like I am with an old friend discussing the Tudors. I would love to see you do a "What if" about if Queen E and Mary Queen of Scots formed an alliance-help and listen to each other instead power hungry men. 😊
@Calla-sl8gd
7 ай бұрын
Hi Claire! Good video as always. As to today's question: Catherine's death definitely played a part in Anne's downfall. Henry was not the kind of man to take a chance that a living Anne would give him the same kind of grief as he got from Catherine, once he had chosen wife #3. But you could carry this even further. I've wondered how it all would have played out had Catherine meekly agreed to the divorce/annulment, and Henry and Anne had married several years earlier than they actually did. Who knows, maybe their baby-making would have had a different outcome. Of course, that may put Elizabeth's presence in jeopardy ... It's interesting to speculate about what if. Thanks again for the video!
@debutten
5 ай бұрын
Awesome job like usual, please keep it up! You have the most amazing, interesting, fascinating and engaging content about the Tudor era that I can listen to for hours. I love your channel and your insight in these fascinating, and interesting people of the past. Their stories sure do not let the veil of time wipe them out, and with the tragic fate of a lot of them certainly did not deserve, our interest in their lives will never cease to exist. Sadly I don't think it would have mattered in the least bit if his first dispose of wife had lived for somewhat longer than what she did. The king would have raised hell to get his way no matter who he had to cross. He just did not care at all, and actually only cared about his own agenda, and he did not care if people faced death as long as his will was done no costs spared not even human lives. Katherine of Aragon would not have been able to stop his actions despite her greatness and grace. NO ONE would have been able to stop this lowlife of a man or make his change his mind whenever he set his mind to something or someone. I think that king Henry the 8th was a narcissistic psychopath who just had a use-abuse-and-throw away relationship with all the people in his life. When he deemed them useless to his agenda, he cut them out of his life, and at worst, tortured them, accused them of misdeeds they had not committed, and sent them to the executioner to die innocent as if they were worthless. garbage. This man saw himself as a god superior to all others, and he loved no one but himself. He had NO conscience or scruples about anything, and made life hell for those who "dared to defy" him, including his own children. One child he viciously kept apart from his own mother just to get his way to such an extent that they never saw each other again. And the other child would never get to experience having her mother with her during her entire upbringing because her father sent her mother to the execution block just because she was no longer useful to him. On top of everything he should have been grateful he had children at all despite the fact that 2 of them were girls, but deemed worthless and treated cruelly and heartlessly by him just because they were girls and he saw their mothers as worthless because none of them had given him boys that survived pregnancy or birth. And his boy by his 3rd wife did not experience how cruel his father actually could be to him too because his father did not live long enough for this to happen. At one point sooner or later, he would have mistreated and been cruel even to his longed for and wanted son because in two words the king was pure evil. His 3rd wife did not live long enough to outlive her usefulness to him, but she too would have gone through the same cold, heartless, and cruel treatment as actually all his wives did although the ones that suffered the worst of his heartless wrath and evil nature was his first wife, 2nd wife, and 5th wife. None of them deserved what happen to them, and they were just pons who were on the loosing side of the sort of twisted game of Henry the 8th were he would NEVER have accepted any other winners besides him selves, and as soon as they did not live up to his expectations and outlived their usefulness to him, he would get rid of them like they were worthless nothings, and some of them paid the ultimate price for having the real bad luck of crossing the path of a narcissistic psychopath sprinkled with the extreme ways of a sociopath. By far the worst and most dangerous kind of combination in an evil human being anyone can cross paths with, and anyone who gets away with their life and have their health intact unspoiled to some degree or another, is actually extremely lucky. His fourth wife was humiliated in the worst way when he considered her useless and she did not live up to his extreme expectations. Any other man, even a king, with feelings, humanity, care, and empathy would have quickly understood that it would all really be about her simply not being used to that culture and those customs as she had not grown up there , but in a country which at the time was extremely conservative in terms of dress and customs, in addition to not having learned languages other than their own. Regardless of the time and era of any age ever, regardless of the political pressure whatever it was, the religious pressure whatever it was, and the military pressure whatever it was during any age that has come and gone, King Henry the 8th is one of the worst human beings ever and one of the worst kings ever in human history!
@LiamDeeley
7 ай бұрын
Thanks Clair. When it comes to Cathrine I’ve always wondered what would have happened if she had agreed to step down and join a nunnery. Would there have sill been an English reformation?
@wednesdayschild3627
7 ай бұрын
I think there would have been. Mary 1 was queen Isabella grand daughter. The people would not have accepted Catherine leaving. These people believed in divine right of kings. Catherine was John of Gaunts grand daughter. There was no way the pope was going to allow an anullment for a daughter of a knight. Henry told Anne, you will accept my mistresses as your betters have done.
@--enyo--
7 ай бұрын
I think this was the subject of one of Claire’s videos a few weeks ago.
@cathybrown6076
7 ай бұрын
Again, an interesting topic Claire. Thank you!
@--enyo--
7 ай бұрын
I like how each of these sort of builds on questions that have come up in previous episodes.
@Shane-Flanagan
7 ай бұрын
Thank you Claire, gosh this video had no sooner begun and when it had finished . Time flew! Very tasty. Left me wanting more. As it should be 😉 👑
@mickeykolody7773
7 ай бұрын
This was an interesting thought experiment. I think is Katherine lived for a longer period of time, Anne would have remained queen. However, if Katherine took holy orders and retired from public life, I think Anne path would have been the same.
@rycoli
7 ай бұрын
Yay!! Love the new video. Such an interesting question! Thank you Claire ❤
@anneboleynfiles
7 ай бұрын
Yay, thank you!
@Lyndell-P
7 ай бұрын
🇭🇲 I really don't have anything to add, other than to say, I found this 'what if' very interesting indeed, and "Thank you" so much Claire xx
@bsg4338
7 ай бұрын
The mental gymnastics Henry has to do to justify his annulment to Catherine is unbelievable
@octavianpopescu4776
7 ай бұрын
I think a lot of it would have sounded more plausible back then, but sure, it still sounded fake to a lot of people. And if you think his annulment with Catherine was sloppy, you should read how he proceeded with Anne of Cleves. It was just a long string of people competing with one another who can describe her as the most disgusting thing that ever existed. From allusions about her body (which weren't necessarily criticism of her looks, but implied she wasn't a virgin, apparently they used other indicators to determine virginity) to stuff like "she stinks" or even "she's a drunkard" (even Chapuys suggested this). Everyone was kicking Anne while she was down. And to top it all off, terms and conditions applied to her even after her annulment. Sure, she got a sweet deal on some palaces, but I think she wasn't allowed to re-marry (without permission) and she wasn't allowed to leave England. I mean, not only did she NOT do anything wrong, but she became pretty much a prisoner... living in a gilded cage, but still a prisoner.
@wednesdayschild3627
7 ай бұрын
There are so many distortions. Erin Parsons makeup artist said Elizabeth makeup was not thick and clownlike. Eliz did not have black teeth. Catherine of Aragon was not fat and ugly. Mary 1 was pretty and looked like Elizabeth of York. Anne Boleyn did not have 6 fingers.
@remartarellano1907
7 ай бұрын
Merely a speculations there is really no truth all these if we really go back to that time and discover what really happen during those time,and I thought king Henry really a womanizer misfortune in the women side if anything go wrong he will dump his mistress like an old soiled clothes..
@lindamorrison4285
7 ай бұрын
So interesting thank you
@laurieduerr4757
7 ай бұрын
Thanks Claire, and yes I agree that regardless of whether CofA would have lived or not, Henry would still have gotten rid of Anne one way or another, since she wasn't able to give him a son.. He was ready to move on to a wife who could "do her duty.."
@anneboleynfiles
7 ай бұрын
Yes, I believe so.
@elizabethwoolnough4358
7 ай бұрын
I think if Anne could have survived longer, there's every chance she'd have been able to provide the son Henry wanted. The January miscarriage came on the heels of two stressful events - finding Seymour sitting on Henry's lap being petted, and Henry's brush with death in the fall from his horse. Given another twelve months or longer, I think Anne could have produced that son. After all, Henry fathered a son with Jane and with Bessie Blount, so he was capable.
@aqueen04
7 ай бұрын
I definitely think Katherine's death precipitated Anne's downfall. As has been said, if Henry had tried to put Anne aside while Katherine lived, it would have made him look patently ridiculous in the eyes of the world, and there would have been a great expectation that he would have to return to her. As long as Anne and Katherine lived, it had to be one or the other, and Jane Seymour couldn't be anything more than a potential mistress. That said, I also think that Cromwell would have found a way to rid Henry of Anne sooner or later, particularly if she kept failing to provide a male heir. I figure that if Anne still lost her son in 1536 but Katherine still lived, Henry might have tried one more time to have a son with Anne, and if that failed, he'd make it very clear that Cromwell was to find a way to get him out of this mess. It might even have forced Cromwell to think of more underhanded methods of getting rid of Anne and/or Katherine. One question I have is what if Anne's 1534 pregnancy had gone to term and resulted in a live, healthy baby? If it was a boy, Henry would have been singing hallelujah from the rooftops and lopping off the head of anyone who dared call his precious son a bastard. If it was a girl... well, two healthy girls in two years is nothing to turn one's nose up at (it's better than Katherine managed, after all), but it's still a far cry from the son that Henry needed/wanted.
@williamammerman8862
7 ай бұрын
Henry probably would have done whatever he felt needed to be done to get what he wanted and had absolute power to do it.
@alancumming6407
7 ай бұрын
Claire, many thanks for not only answering, but putting so much thought into my question. I hadn't considered the possibility of Catherine's 'prolonged' survival. I often feel Catherine's death (coupled with the unfortunate stillbirth) acted as a 'starting pistol' for the anti-Boleyn factions. I don't believe the proposition of removing Anne while Catherine lived would have been palatable to Henry due to the risks (both foreign and domestic). Considering the uncommon speed at which Anne and George's downfall occurred (and achieved on such a poorly constructed case) it puzzles me exactly how Cromwell managed to persuade Henry, in such a short space of time, that Anne must be removed. Therefore, I wonder if, by the end of January, Anne's enemies in court 'gently' began 'directing' Henry's thoughts towards the possibility that all his problems stemmed from Anne, making Cromwell's task much easier. I also believe that, had Catherine not passed in January, and Anne and George not fallen in May, I doubt Cromwell would have survived beyond 1537. Once more, many thanks Claire.
@katherinecollins4685
6 ай бұрын
Interesting video
@margotolivieri4132
7 ай бұрын
🏵️ so interesting, as usual. Thank you
@eveywrens
7 ай бұрын
If Catherine of Aragon had lived a few more years, I think she would have continued to be recalcitrant. After all, Henry still had not let her see their daughter Mary. Not sure if is fiction, but there may have been attempts to smuggle Mary out of England? And with Anne's obstetric history, Catherine may have attempted, with renewed vigor, to get support from the pope and/or her nephew. I suspect Cromwell's position might have been slightly different with Catherine still alive. Protestantism had not gained a foothold, yet and the Catholic faction still rallied around Catherine. Also, the events leading up to Anne's miscarriage may have played out differently. There might have been a wait and see attitude. After all Henry's pride was on the line after turning over his kingdom to marry Anne and make her Queen. Henry would dally with Anne's maids of honor, take a mistress, but he may have tried again to get Anne pregnant?🤷♀️
@wandererh8544
7 ай бұрын
I love these what if scenarios ❤
@marysunflower2185
7 ай бұрын
Or maybe, since Catherine was still alive, Henry didn't execute Anne, and Anne got pregnant again and this time gave birth to a son. And then maybe had another. Who knows how it might have turned out. It might have been much better for Anne. If she gave birth to a son, she would have been untouchable. Henry would have probably immediately softened toward her also. He may have taken Jane Seymour for a mistress, but he would never have married her.
@cindytaylor5457
7 ай бұрын
Am loving these ‘what if’ questions! I dont believe Katherine’s survival would have affected much as Henry was bound and determined to get a son. Anne might have been more careful but her inability to produce a male heir would still have led to her downfall… perhaps to a nunnery as discussed in a previous post. I’ve always wondered about two different what ifs… what would have happened if Henry found Anne of Cleves suitable as a wife and their marriage continued until his death? Cromwell would have retained his position if not become even more powerful perhaps. The other: what would have happened if Kathrine Howard was a well behaved wife and their marriage lasted? In both cases, there would have been no Catherine Parr to be a mother figure to Elizabeth; and possibly no Thomas Seymour mischief to affect her. How would either queen surviving Henry have affected Edward’s, Mary’s or Elizabeth’s reign?
@sixeses
7 ай бұрын
Thanks Claire. Pope Clement granted Henry's sister Margaret an annulment in 1527, so that must have riled him too.
@autumnpeacock4156
7 ай бұрын
Catherine and Anne’s lives were tied together. So long as Catherine lived, Anne felt threatened and unsafe. But Catherine living also secured Anne’s place with Henry because he could not make it known that he was tired of Anne while Catherine was alive. He couldn’t give Catherine that satisfaction.
@123canadagirl
27 күн бұрын
I agree but I don’t think Anne realized that
@wendychavez5348
6 ай бұрын
Im pretty sure the brain injury Henry potentially sustained in that jousting accident was the deciding factor in Anne Boleyn's demise, though it's likely that Katherine's death was the straw that broke the camel's back. Surely it unbalanced him enough that he made decisions he might not otherwise have made, and now he had a precedent so executing Kathryn Howard for essentially the same reasoning he has for doing it to her cousin Anne may hamade sense to him. If Katherine had still been alive, her existence may havkept him reasonable enough to consider his public image more than his personal dilemna.
@Shane-Flanagan
7 ай бұрын
Yes, with Catherine permanently out of the picture, Anne's downfall was all the easier. Catherine still being alive in May 1536 would've created obvious issues for Henry and for those involved in Annes downfall but I don't know if Catherine still living would've been enough to alter much of what was to come as Henry was so determined to have a son and was fast running out of time not to mention the many enemies Anne and the Boleyns had wanting to bring about their ruin. Henry, the Court, the people and England itself, needed a male heir so Henry returning to Catherine wouldn't have been much of a productive option. If only they knew at the time that a female heir was just as good as a male heir if not better.
@AprilBird4
7 ай бұрын
I agree, Katherine's death made it easier for Henry to get rid of Anne. But I do think he'd have "found a way" had things kept going. Katherine would have been doing more than "laughing up her sleeve" had she lived. I'm sure she would have felt very vindicated. And I don't blame her!!
@joseygonzalez1800
7 ай бұрын
Random but your hair looks so cute!
@lauramason5667
7 ай бұрын
If Henry had given Anne a chance , she may have had a son and more children. She never got the chance. Jane was not as good as painted in history. "I am engaged to a man who just executed his wife and unceremoniously dumped his first wife." Blessings, Jane.
@kittenallie
7 ай бұрын
Plus without Katherine's death he may not have had the tournaments that caused his injury.
@judyw5584
7 ай бұрын
i have always wondered "What If" Jane's child had been a girl? would Henry have accepted defeat? would he have remarried? Kathrine Howard might have become Kathrine Culpepper
@BlackCatMargie
7 ай бұрын
It is strange to think of, but you are right, and while Catherine was alive, Anne was relatively safe. Of course, Catherine was much older, and very ill, so she would not have survived very much longer, even if she was more comfortably situated, but much could have happened if she had been alive even one more year. If Henry felt compelled to keep his second marriage, then Anne might have gotten pregnant again, and it might have been the longed for boy. Everything hinged on that, so whether Catherine died in 1536 or 1537, without the boy child, Anne was still doomed.
@chasegordonn
7 ай бұрын
This is wonderful! Thank you so much, and bless you! 🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹
@gerrimilner9448
4 ай бұрын
not sure Anne's loss of her son was not bought on by the shock of Catherine and Henry Fitzroy's deaths
@laurabrowning7973
4 ай бұрын
I think Catherine of Aragon's death precipitated Anne's execution. As the charges against Anne were false, Henry would have come around to it at a later date. If Henry and Anne had had a surviving healthy male heir, there would have been no doubt in Henry's mind that the child was legitimate, despite the continued existence of Catherine. So, if Anne were executed prior to Catherine's death, the son of a subsequent Queen would have been legitimate as well.
@UniqueInterpretations
7 ай бұрын
This is highly hypothetical, but if Anne Boleyn was executed to ensure that no former ex-wife was alive to threaten the legitimacy of any sons he might have with subsequent wives, I could imagine that had Catherine of Aragon lived and had Anne Boleyn still not been able to provide a living son as she approached middle age, Cromwell or some other crony of the King could have arranged for Anne Boleyn to be poisoned (and then blame it on someone from the pro-Catherine, Spanish/Catholic faction), so that Henry wouldn't risk losing face by repudiating Anne after everything he had done to make his second marriage lawful.
@sharoncole8249
6 ай бұрын
💖👑👑💖
@tinasamuels3048
7 ай бұрын
I wish i could come up with a reason that if Katherine remained alive, it would have saved Anne. Remember that Henry was 'done' with Anne after the January miscarriage. " i can see i will not have sons by you" he said in apparent exasperation and frustration that rings of readiness to move on especially with Jane firmly in the future picture. The catholic faction was strong at court and building up a lot of anti Anne sentiment whether Katherine was alive or not. Henry was going to rid himself of Anne. He just needed a way to do it which Cromwell provided.
@sarahmo9708
7 ай бұрын
I'm not sure it would have made a difference. Jane had got Henry's eye before Catherine's demise
@susancaleca4796
3 ай бұрын
What if Anne didn't die for her daughters sake, would things turn out differently?
@CindyAbrodie
7 ай бұрын
I always wondering what happens if Catherine just granted Henry wishes retired and go to help to rule Castille, that woman was formidable, ambassador, better than Henry in everything her only problem is she was a woman. She doesn’t need stay in that mess. I’m amazed for everything I read about her she was a Regal more that anyone in that period.
@kellysharratt474
7 ай бұрын
Why didn't Henry just divorce Anne? She might have agreed to it if it meant the safety and security of her daughter. Xx
@anneboleynfiles
7 ай бұрын
He'd tried that with Catherine and she'd been a nightmare, plus he needed his marriage to Jane to be seen by everyone as 100% valid so that any children would be deemed legitimate. If Anne was alive, there would be some that didn't agree with the annulment.
@paulkarch3318
7 ай бұрын
These videos are informative and interesting. But I find it hard to watch them because of the characters. Besides the gratuitous brutality, I am repulsed by a man that essentially frames people for nonexistent crimes and commits (the M word) for his convenience. Maybe that's why in the constitution they put "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."
@dorothywillis1
7 ай бұрын
One of several reasons. They were trying to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past.
@peachygal4153
4 ай бұрын
The scripture in Leviticus said wife, not widow. It was referring to both adultery, and also a possible marriage to the brother in-law after a divorce. In the Old Testament divorce was allowed. Jesus made stricter rules on divorce in the New Testament. We all know when your spouse dies you are no longer married. In fact, in Leviticus it also brought in brother-in-law marriage too. If a man died childless, his brother was to take his widow and give her an heir in his late brother's name. If he had no brother than the nearest male relative. In the book of Ruth that is why Boaz married Ruth. Her late husband, and his brother were all dead. Boaz was their relative.
@doriamurriola7188
4 ай бұрын
If Catherine had lived longer, Anne would have lived longer, with Catherine living even just 6 months more that would give Anne the opportunity to get pregnant after january 1536 miscarriage and maybe, miscarry again or finally deliver a healthy child, Henry didnt give her enough time bcs he felt he didnt have much time left
@maureenmcallister2393
7 ай бұрын
I don't think Catherine surviving would have helped at all. I think Henry would have executed Anne and threatened Catherine with the same thing if she didn't behave. I kil*ed one, what do you think I can do to you, type thing. I also think Catherine would have been complacent in Anne's downfall given the chance and given how hard she fought against her to begin with and been happy to see her fall.
@EmberShadowtempest
7 ай бұрын
I don't think he would have threatened Catherine in the same way. To do so would have risked war. She was from a powerful family and aunt to the holy Roman emperor. Anne was a different case she was English both she and her family were even more beholden to the kings will than Catherine was.
@amythestjasmine3749
7 ай бұрын
Hello Elizabeth of York as that's your birth name. You're fine. Everything is good.
@amythestjasmine3749
7 ай бұрын
Is anyone threatening you. Is Henry threatening you
@123canadagirl
27 күн бұрын
Too bad Anne didn’t consider what would happen if she didn’t have a boy. Of course none of them knew it’s the man who decides the baby’s gender. Anne was innocent and so were the men accused of sleeping with her. Henry was a terrible person
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