I think a video that talks about what makes a safe battery vs an unsafe one would be VERY useful at this point.
@Demystar
Жыл бұрын
Agreed it would be nice to make those details clear and easily accessible. Also to differentiate between UL listed and UL certified.
@djwhiteflour
Жыл бұрын
He said he isn't an engineer, I think most people wouldn't get it. UL certification, or IPX waterproof ratings are things that people understand. I have seen some decent videos on here, but am still learning myself so I would hesitate to recommend one.
@SonnyDarvishzadeh
Жыл бұрын
That's not the direction this channel wants to move into. Ideally there shouldn't be any DIY as it requires a high level of experitise not only in electrical engineering but also product design as bikes are moving through really harsh roads and weather conditions.
@jensenhealey907efi
Жыл бұрын
@@SonnyDarvishzadeh But as a consumer it would be nice to know what to look for and what to avoid. An educated consumer is what I am talking about rather than DIY.
@youandican2
Жыл бұрын
@@Demystar lucky mine is UL tested. Heybike Mars passed the UL 2849 electric bicycle electric system safety standard test.
@maschwerer
Жыл бұрын
Cheap Chinese batteries are typically the problem. For instance, the cheap hoverboard knockoffs were catching fire so often that stores stopped selling them. Quality batteries with BMS shouldn’t experience fires. Cut corners and problems are guaranteed.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
I totally agree. Although it wasn’t 100%, the cheap or hazardous products that caused stores to stop selling products. It seems as though it was government intervention.
@Yoshikarter1
Жыл бұрын
Batteries are usually the most expensive part of an e-bike conversion. People will try to cheapen out and buy some shady poorly-made crap. Voltage and discharge are often not what is listed. Also, people might not be using compatible chargers. These scenarios are just asking for trouble. I got a conversion kit from Grin Tech, just the battery alone was nearly $1,000. The batteries that you hear on the news catching fire or exploding were around the $300 range.
@castortoutnu
Жыл бұрын
@@Yoshikarter1 tbf 1000$ for a battery is totally overpriced. If we consider a 10s4p inr2170-50E battery then the bill of material would be: 40 cells = 3$*40 = 120$ BMS ~ 30$ Case ~ 20$ Wiring and miscellaneous ~ 10$ That's 180$ while being very generous on the prices, even with quality components. Now with some quality assembly in China the price of the pack could easily still be less than 300$.
@Yoshikarter1
Жыл бұрын
@@castortoutnu The battery I got is a 52v 20aH. Not a small battery by any means.
@stephendenagy3396
Жыл бұрын
@@castortoutnu that’s great. Now factor in shipping, marketing, and margins, manufacturer, wholesale, and retail. It will likely be closer to $500. Or more. And shipping Li batteries will also get harder. A UPS plane crashed a few years ago in the Middle East because of lithium battery fire. All hands lost. If this is a hypothetical vendor then they could hypothetically can get UL rating. If they can’t, then there is something wrong. Subtle but real. The fires are real as well.
@johnfretz1938
Жыл бұрын
As long as there are unregulated, untested, and uncertified e-bikes, conversion kits, and battery components for sale, this issue is just going to grow, and damage the larger e-bike industry. If all the other electrical/electronic equipment in my home, from my toaster to my TV needs to be tested and certified safe, then it's time all e-bikes and their systems follow suit in order to be sold in the US.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
I completely agree
@theaveragejoe5781
Жыл бұрын
Yes, sounds totally right. I would expect the legislator to move in this direction.
@ericklein5097
Жыл бұрын
UL Listing does not guarantee safety. It sets a standard but one does not need UL certification to build a safe battery. If you want to solve this once and for all, subsidize A123 cells so that they are affordable and easily accessible. A123 are not your normal LiFeP04 cells, they have the power output to blow away nearly all of the more dangerous chemistries with the only downside being their lower energy density but it terms of personal electric vehicles I think there is enough space on any scooter/bike/whatever wheeled vehicle to build a battery with decent range that can take advantage of the fast charging A123 cells are capable of. Yes, I'm aware we already gave the company millions and it ended up being purchased by some Chinese group but now there is Lithium Werks who bought some of the assets/IP and manufacture the 18650 and 26650 M1B cells. Thanks to the nanophosphate technology you can abuse the shit out of those cells and it won't kill them or make them blow up. I don't want to see subsidizing Lithium Werks hurting other vendors so I'd just like to see a 48V 15Ah or 20Ah battery with a BMS that limits the output be offered for a reasonable price ($300/$400?) and easily available to everyone in the US via UPS or Fedex within a week. Currently you can get used 26650 M1B cells at $100 for 100 cells that test over 90% capacity at 1C/>98% at 0.2C. A battery that would last 10 years for your average commuter and 5 years for a delivery driver would make those cheap $200 Chinese batteries a terrible choice. Only the dumbest of troglodytes would think saving a little money now makes any sense. If you institute a requirement for something as expensive as UL certification (simple electrical products: the process can cost several hundred thousand dollars) you'll see the battery builders just go to extremes to hide their batteries in shells of UL approved batteries and trust me, the shells will be readily available on Aliexpress and elsewhere. 99% of people I've met in the homemade battery scene go above and beyond when dealing with the more dangerous chemistries like NMC and NCA. Look at the designs on Endless Sphere, considering the budget differences between large companies and a battery builder the level of safety is impressive. More importantly, the users on Endless Sphere are often very much aware of what they are building and know that your average Joe should not be sold any of the homemade batteries we create simply because they lack the knowledge of dangers of certain chemistries to handle them appropriately. I would have loved to give my brother's hippie girlfriend a power bank built with the cells out of her disposable vapes but after a lot of testing and being unable to find official datasheets for the cells I realized I would be handing her something that I didn't even have full understanding of. I've rigged up some funny prototypes with 100W USB Power Delivery Boards and have charged MacBooks/ iPads, phones, powered 7,000 lumen LED lights, one wheel batteries, all kinds of shit. Right to repair should absolutely apply to batteries. It's already fucked that the only major manufacturer of cells that doesn't go out of their way to stop us from getting cells is Molicel. God forbid this push for "safety" leads us to a world where lithium cells require a permit to purchase. This entire argument really is no different than the firearms argument. Do you want liberty or do you want an abusive mother that keeps you "safe" because time and time again the government has proven to be nothing more than a two faced abusive parent. Your safety is your responsibility. Worried about the place you live at going up in flames? Move somewhere that has banned what you fear. Private property owners have the right to decide what they want on their property. There's some deeper nuances to what landlords should be allowed to control but as long as there exists a market that is not a monopoly then let the consumer find what suits them best if they are a renter.
@andr386
Жыл бұрын
Only an American would struggle so much to say that we need stronger standards. Yes it means safety and sure it will increase the price in the short term but it will allow competition and innovation in the right direction and should insure repairability.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
yeah, this is definitely a fair point. It is weird how our society has come to except the chaotic ways that our markets operate. I guess I’m just trying not to alienate myself in too much as I present ideas which might be uncomfortable to the average American.
@crimsonhawk467
Жыл бұрын
Haha what a pompous comment. Yes everyone else is so smart. So eager to place rules on everything and kill innovation and creativity.
@imho7250
Жыл бұрын
Yes, at first I thought this was some comedy intro to a group Twitter D&I meeting. Lol. Just spit it out, many batteries, especially lithium ion, are assembled without proper cell isolation, such that the bike falling over can cause the cells from adjacent brick to rub through the wrapper and create direct short. I bought a $300 chinese ebike with a removable battery box. Inside the box is a lithium ion battery wrapped on blue and cushioned bottom, left, right and front. Inside the blue wrapping is a 13s5p 18650 cell holder that ensures these will never touch each other unless you get run over by a truck. Furthermore this battery slides in between the frame rails. The battery has a 15a BMS and a 20a fuse on output and 5a fuse on charge port. Charger is 2a and controller is 13a. My ebike has fallen over about 5 times so far. Many DIY batteries from China are assembled carelessly, no cell holder, improperly arranged for proper tabbing, no foam padding, and they are normally designed to be mounted in an unprotected frame. One crash and the batteries can easily short and catch on fire.
@thelonercoder5816
Жыл бұрын
OnLy An AmEriCan. Oh, please. It's because these are rare and isolated incidents. The reality is that there is a strong bias against ebikes because it challenges the gas industry and devalues oil and their related industries. So does solar power. You're naive if you cannot see this bias.
@LibtardsareFuntotalkto
Жыл бұрын
Probably because America was founded by people fleeing from overbearing European governments... 😂🇺🇸
@Destide
Жыл бұрын
For the DIY community EM3EV are the gold standard. They even silicone every seal that's how much attention to detail they have. Reminds me of the internet starting out very wild west lots of awesome progression but on the other side of the blade there's people making money quick at the exspense of others. Standardisation of battery tech needs to be implemented in major markets just simple things like cells not phyisically contacting, thermal run-off protection on the BMS, education on charging practeses. This goes for all transport" not just bikes" which is a good channel btw
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
It sounds like it. Louis Rossman also swears by them and we used them a few times in our early days when we were still doing conversions. I wonder if they could become UL listed? It would be a shame for them not to be able to continue.
@theotheronethere4391
Жыл бұрын
There are certain factors which makes this more prevalent in NYC than other places 1. Delivery drivers. It seems that the bulk of ebike riders in NYC are Uber eats/other delivery drivers. Given their limited socio-economic background, they are not buying brand name ebikes but are in many cases buying off-brand/ conversion kit bikes from overseas. Let's just say there is limited QA on those products. 2. With regards to your point about newer buildings with bike storage and bike friendly features, a significant chunk of NYC housing stock is pretty old and those built in the last 20 years are skewed heavily in favor of high end luxury buildings which I assume many of those riding ebikes as Uber Eats drivers are not living in.
@nian60
Жыл бұрын
I'm European and I have never heard of these batteries catching fire here. Maybe they are. But it has not been in the news, AFAIK. In the EU we have quite strict safety laws for electrical products though.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
I have heard this often and mentioned it in the video. I think this is for a variety of reasons including the anti-dumping tariffs
@nian60
Жыл бұрын
@@Propelbikes Yes, could be. Thanks for the video.
@scb2scb2
Жыл бұрын
@@nian60 i have not looked into this much but we have more 'normal' ebikes i guess mostly from brands who have been in the market for a long time. ebikes are not seen as a 'toy' where the first question is how fast can i make it go and how many watts does it have. The netherlands now has 3.8M ebikes and we are not flooded (no pun intended) with fires. i am sure the numbers are up but not inline with the number or ebikes sold.
@eggy6857
Жыл бұрын
Happens quite often in the Netherlands but with more than half a million e-bikes sold per year it makes sense I guess. I don't recall it ever lead to any serious injuries though. Only property damage.
@scb2scb2
Жыл бұрын
@@eggy6857 well it happens for sure but its hard to find numbers 2020 and 2021 the number seems to be between 80 and 120 on a installed base of 3.8M ebikes. I doubt NY has 3.8M ebikes so we are talking about a totally different scale. Even then i think indeed many ebikes in nl are in special bike areas, semi-outside or people are more careful during charging. But a large part has to be simply better batteries and chargers.
@jeffdible8171
Жыл бұрын
I think there is an amazing opportunity for someone to make aftermarket batteries that meet UL standards to refurbish some of these products with problems. I think you are being an advocate for the industry and trying to get ahead of what really looks like a serious problem. Your commitment to quality products is setting the standard. You can pay up front for quality, or pay later with tragedy. You are once again, ahead of the game.
@AmericanFietser
Жыл бұрын
*Generalized comment* Chris, your an amazing person to have as a leader in this industry and movement, especially in the US, where we need all the help we can get. What you do, the way you present, the topics you discuss, and the products you've chosen to sell are all admirable and respectable. I just want to say that I hope you find the inspiration and strength to keep all of this up long into the future. You're very gifted and seemingly a nature at what you do here.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
The same can be said about you! I really appreciate all your support! Sometimes it’s not easy to stand on ground on your own. But this is definitely the necessary step if we want to improve.
@joegibbs2508
Жыл бұрын
@@Propelbikes How come you don't mention CE certification? Isn't that the European equivalent to UL?
@JohnDutton-p6m
Жыл бұрын
I have been listening to Propel's KZitem videos for the past couple of months and I have been struck by how much I have learned. I have owned several ebikes in the last 15 years not thinking about battery safety and sustainability. I acted on this new information and purchased a Riese & Muller Nevo GT from Propel in Delaware two weeks ago. The battery, motor and electronics are all Bosch. Now I don't worry about fire, what do I do when the battery dies, electronic display goes blank and the motor seizes. The ebikes I have thrown away were due no support, believe me I tried to find a way to fix them. Rock on Propel!
@thejesuschrist
Жыл бұрын
holy shit! wow! thanks dude! I am so glad I purchased my first e-bike from you, my dude!
@thejesuschrist
Жыл бұрын
and my 2nd and 3rd!
@Tradesman1156
Жыл бұрын
@@thejesuschrist how many are you getting 12 plus 1?
@piksarv
Жыл бұрын
I unfortunately have first hand experience of having a house fire started by a e-cargobike battery. This was from a reputable German company. Probably the best would be to acknowledge that Li batteries always carry this risk, you can only mitigate it to some degree: don't charge batteries unattended, possibly charge outdoors (though not possible when cold) or fireresistant location, take battery off the charger when full. There are also special boxes for battery charging, that may help to contain the possible damage.
@williamsimonson4826
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for your discussion on battery safety. You may be the only guy out there asking battery safety questions. After hearing your comments, I was in the garage in 2 minutes to check my bikes. I have TerraTrek EVO (2.5 years): battery is UL approved. I have a Ride1Up 700 (2 yrs): Battery has only EC mark. I have a Lectric XP 3.0 (2 months old): Battery has only EC mark. I will query Ride1Up and Lectric to determine if their batteries now have UL rating. Thanks again. William Simonson, Mount Pleasant, WI
@aurora571000
Жыл бұрын
This is why I purchased Velotric Discover! When I first saw the ad and it said UL listed batteries AND UL listed bike, as a whole, I jumped at it.
@TheAnimeist
Жыл бұрын
Right to repair does not include repairing batteries, but rather having the ability to replace the battery. For example the Onewheel GT battery is serialized and tamper-proofed. Meaning that as soon as you unplug the battery, the entire system is now a boat anchor. Only the factory can resurrect it.
@drewsmith7726
Жыл бұрын
The first time I heard about e-bike batteries catching fire was from news reports I saw on KZitem coming out of London. I saw the news reports a few months ago, but I don’t know when the actual fires were. At the time, I thought, “Oh no! They must not have good standards and consumer protection over there!” Thanks for your videos and all the great work you do!
@lizvickers7156
Жыл бұрын
We do have good standards and consumer protection is good. It's probably Chinese imports with people putting together DIY projects.
@ohana_is_family
Жыл бұрын
I do not think eBikes will be killed by battery-fires. But it may cause problems. One thing you do not mention is measures owners can take to reduce the risks to them. - outside under a roof, safe from flooding, against a brick wall is a lot safer than indoors, in between flammable elements that can spread toxic fumes and with risks of blocked ventilation. Think where you'll charge and include a small risk of fire in your assessment. - Charge with the battery in a non-flammable environment. I once pointed out to a friend who placed his battery on top of a cardboard box with styrofoam in his garage that if there ever was a fire the fumes would be toxic and spread. Coolng requires ventilation, but one can still charge in a relatively enclosed place of metal and or stones that will prevent flames from spreading. - do not mess with leads etc.. If a lead has to be replaced make sure it can carry the correct amps etc.. - water and electricity do not mix. This can include consensation (charging in kitchens or under shoddy roofs etc.), under tables with vases or drinks in glasses being consumed, outdoor floodings and leaks can risk fires.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
Great feedback. I am actually planning a short video to recommend many similar steps
@ohana_is_family
Жыл бұрын
@@Propelbikes Good luck with that and thanks for your content.
@mpetry912
Жыл бұрын
good video. I think low cost chargers do not shut off when the battery is fully charged, in fact the charger cannot detect full charge, depending on the end user to unplug when charging is done. Another problem is having too many chargers plugged into a single power strip / circuit, resulting in high current and overheating on old in-wall electrical wiring. My Specialized Vado 5 charger does auto-shut off at full charge, but the lower cost Bafang units do not.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
this is a fair point. However, Specialized had battery issues as well on their Levo. And Bafang is actually now producing some certified products, so we should try to give them credit where it’s due. I’ve actually had many conversations with them on this topic and I appreciate that making some strides in this area.
@ratbert1
Жыл бұрын
Chris, In the UK the national media are tripping over themselves to report any and all battery fires whether its an e-scooter, e-bike or EV, if there was a significant number of incidents you would have heard about it. Currently only rental e-scooters are legal and along with e-bikes are limited to 250w motors, in the US I see 750w, 1500W e-bikes and e-scooters running at 60v, my Riese & Müller e-bikes are 36v and 250w, do you think that could be a factor along with poor quality chargers? iPhone fires when they occur are often due to cheap, poor quality third party chargers rather than defective batteries. A 250w motor running at 36v draws just under 7 amps, a 1500w motor running at 60v draws 25 amps. I note Bosch voluntarily test to a standard, I feel reasonably confident of their safety, nothing is 100%. Should the make of e-bikes and chargers involved in the fires be named? Well done for raising the issue and producing a very well thought out video.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
I discussed this a little bit in the video. I suspect the UK is still impacted by the EU anti-dumping tariffs even since the split. I do believe this is a factor. Certainly some level oversight over the size and power of the ebikes escooters would have an impact as well. In New York it seems that the city is having trouble controlling what actually comes in.
@timscott3027
Жыл бұрын
The media are jumping all over it because they are doing anything to show that EVs are rubbish and fossil fuels (or now hydrogen fuels) are amazing and the future, probably because they are paid to by lobbyists or other fossil fuel groups. The last fires I have seen first hand, a ice car went up in flames, and an old lady left her cooker on catching fire to the kitchen.
@dcltdw
Жыл бұрын
Great video. Thanks for keeping the conversation going on this.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the support! It's a challenging topic but I think we need to confront it head on
@wktodd
Жыл бұрын
You as a retailer , have to get to the media after each fire and press them to investigate whether the offending battery was actually tested or not, push the fact that it simply is not a problem in UK or Europe . We have had electric hire bikes and scooters for some years and I've never seen a fire reported.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
I don’t think that that’s necessary as I can say with relative certainty that the batteries that are causing the fires are not tested. I guess it would be nice for that to be included in reports going forward. It be nice for the public to start differentiating products that are or are not tested.
@wktodd
Жыл бұрын
@@Propelbikes If you you follow up every ebike fire report in your area youll soon be the go -to 'expert' that the media will come to for comment. That will do your business no harm and , as they say there's no such thing as bad publicity
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
This is a great idea! I appreciate the suggestion
@ChristianRoyUtah
Жыл бұрын
Come on America, do the right thing and put the pressure on ebike manufacturers through required standards and testing instead of the banning ebikes in general.
@SmokeyTreats
Жыл бұрын
A fireproof container to store & charge lithium batteries in would go far toward resolving this issue, at least for ebikes with removable batteries.
@Martin_HD28
Жыл бұрын
Man this is depressing Chris. I'm not concened at all as I only own Treks, and Specialized ebikes. I take care of my bikes and batteries and use common sense when charging. I'll never give up my ebikes!
@pacificostudios
Жыл бұрын
Just remember that lithium doesn't catch fire until it heats up to 350 F. Check on your battery as you charge it. It shouldn't even get too warm to touch. My Velotric bike battery, which is UL Listed, doesn't get hotter than 105 F, I can put my hand on it all day while it charges.
@karlInSanDiego
Жыл бұрын
NYC should be investigating the make/model of equipment that caused fires. Cheap chargers or packs with no BMS could be a significant part of this. With the original hoverboard fires, the chargers were literally relying on consumers to time and disconnect to avoid overcharging. That means that both the onboard charger lacked a shutdown circuit AND there was not BMS to shut down charging. I don't think anyone is selling e-bikes like this. This is a city of 8.8 million people. So a rash of fires is NOT good, but risk of fire could look outsized because there are so many people adopting e-mobility so quickly. If one in ten households has some kind of e-bike, hoverboard, one-wheel, etc. or more for families, that would be 880,000 such vehicles in homes. Could it be that 1 in 10,000 are plugging 48V chargers into 36V bikes? Yes, very possible. And the BMs on the battery pack should stop this from creating a problem but that's what each manufacturer must test for.
@tonyoreilly7196
Жыл бұрын
Well done, this topic is not going away and needs addressing now!
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
Thanks Tony! I agree. I'm hopeful that this video will be helpful in that effort
@woodtickgreg6926
Жыл бұрын
This is the elephant in the room and it needs to be discussed and regulated, imo. I have 2 ebikes, one for myself and one for my girlfriend, not going to mention the brands. But they are Chinese and met a price point that we could afford. One bike is ul listed on the battery and charger and one is not. I didnt know about the importance of this standard until recently, if I had known about it I wouldn't have purchased one of the bikes. All chargers and batteries need to be ul listed! Will it drive up the cost of some bikes? Probably. Will some brands go away because of it? Probably. But it needs to happen. I have a detached garage that I store our bikes in and charge them in, but I still set the chargers on the concrete when charging. It's one thing to have your garage burn down, but another to have your house burn down. At the minimum I think all batteries and chargers should have the ul listing as a requirement.
@danzawhack
Жыл бұрын
A couple thoughts here: First, thank you for your honesty and concern for people’s safety, even when this topic could potentially damage demand for the product you’re selling. I recently bought a used Bosch- powered ebike (we couldn’t afford a new one), and while this discussion has reaffirmed my decision to go with a certified system, it’s also convinced me to be more cautious about when / how I charge it. I have 2 little kids (I use the bike to pull them along in a bike trailer), and their safety is the most important thing to me. 2nd: Like many others in this thread, I’m not an engineer and don’t understand the technicalities of what makes some batteries safe and others dangerous, including the importance of using chargers designed for that particular battery system. Chris, I know you’re not an expert at battery chemistry, but if you could use your connections to facilitate a discussion with someone who is, that would be super helpful! 3rd: Additional regulation seems like a no-brainer here. As another commenter noted, the decision to mandate safety standards in cars (seatbelts, airbags, reverse cameras, etc) has made cars both safer and more desireable. Additionally, other regulations which were initially vehemently opposed by the auto industry have actually spurred innovation and made cars objectively better. Minimum fuel economy standards forced auto makers to innovate ways to build more efficient, powerful engines as well as design cars that slip through the air more efficiently.
@tonyshelver4931
Жыл бұрын
Would be interesting if there is any technical analysis of these fires. A lot of the cheaper batteries use cheaper no-name cells, and BMS systems with no heat management installed.Also substandard wiring (aluminium coated iron straps instead of pure aluminium, or not thick enough to handle the load), welds and so on.
@John-ye4nv
Жыл бұрын
As a retired insurance risk manager and investigator, I would want to see if there are one or more factors that link these fires. Is it one bike manf, or one battery/charger manf, age of battery, damage to battery or chargers preceding events, did they get wet, are the batteries listed, etc. Until someone thoroughly compares these (and many other factors), it is premature to say ebikes in general are dangerous and or fire hazards.
@oquefizhoje
Жыл бұрын
Excelent topic I have a e-bike powered by Bosch motor do since 2019. I handle it with care and lever ever leave my home when it is charging. And of course never ever leave it night charging... cause you will never know... I trusted in this european brand and i never thought that the batteries could be at the stake of safety, since it has a electric save circuitry and software on it. I hope that my 400 watts battery will never explode in my room, a warm place where i stored it in winter... because it could be a really threat to me. But... i will thought twice... and move it for another warm and dry place. I never heard about any safety issue with Bosch batteries, here in Europe.
@fanom1
Жыл бұрын
Me too..I have a Pegasus E-8 e-bike (German) bought in 2014..with the Bosch Active line pedal assist motor..it tops out at 16 mph...still running the original Bosch battery. I follow all the rules from Bosch regarding battery care and charging. NO ISSUES at all. But we have to realize that these battery's can be dangerous if not properly maintained or stored. Owner education is huge...plus the rebuilding of these battery's should be illegal if not done by a qualified company.
@gessha
Жыл бұрын
Louis mentioned in his battery fire video how he was really happy with a certain battery pack company but he tried a different, lower cost one for a change and it resulted in the fire in that video. Hope you have a conversation with Louis on this topic. It would be nice to have somebody with electrical knowledge describe what makes a good battery vs a bad battery, what could go wrong in them, how to take care of them, etc. Really interesting topic.
@jacquesblaque7728
Жыл бұрын
Good on you, Chris, for shining a calm, steady light on this. IMO as an engineer, first priority should be to compile stats, like by the NYFD, of whose device(s) (battery, charger) failed, circumstances (temp, rh, etc), and any other relevant parameters. Then when we've identified the problem, we can discuss all the aspects of proposed solutions. Yes, national (or larger scope) is preferable. We need to get as much brain-power as possible engaged here, on a continuing basis, including informing the public about the importance of this work.
@jackoneil3933
Жыл бұрын
Thanks again Chris for helping to bring about awareness and move the market upward and in a better direction and raising awareness of lithium battery safety. I started looking into lithium battery technology and what could be done to improve e-bike battery safety, and I would say as it currently stands, is that the main challenge battery safety is NCM battery chemistry (Li-Ion), and its inherent susceptibility to catastrophic failure. While there are some safer and potentially more affordable and compact lithium chemistries on the horizon, such as solid-state lithium batteries, There still a number of years away LifePo4 ( lithium iron) technology it's of course much safer, less costly to manufacture and more environmentally friendly, it's slight disadvantage in energy density seems to keep manufacturers walked into designs based around lithium-ion battery cells. I agree that regulations of lithium ion are inevitable, but regulations require enforcement and can never be 100% effective. Alternatively, if a safer, less costly, longer life and more environmentally friendly option is available, I believe it will quickly displace most of the market for lithium iron powered eBikes. that technology is basically here today, and requires only a modest adjustment to battery and bicycle design. I've been experimenting with prototype lithium iron (LifeP04) eBike battery packs, and it's very feasible to build lithium iron battery packs using flat pouch cells that are of equal capacity to current ebike packs based on cylindrical 18650 based packs that are only about 25 to 30% larger and heavier. For an average E bike that ends up being a few lbs heavier and larger, or about 25% less range for the same size in weight as a lithium ion pack. Moving to higher voltage battery packs and motors can further offset the marginal increase in weight of a lithium iron based eBike. I've been running all summer, about (800miles) on a 60V lithium iron pack that is better in range and power to an actual 20ah 52 volt lithium-ion pack. it's about 20% larger than the lithium-ion pack in ways only 4lbs more, plus it's good for thousands of recharge cycles rather than a DIY lithium-ion battery pack that may be For only 100 to 200 charge cycles. The lithium iron battery packs I've been using cost about one half of lithium ion packs, plus I can charge the lithium iron pack 2 to 3 times faster than a lithium-ion pack, allowing me to add 10 to 15 miles in 20 to 30 minutes, rather than two or three hours as with a comparable lithium ion pack. I also preferred the constant voltage discharge curve of the lithium iron battery over lithium iron batteries that continually lose voltage as they discharge. My average commute I typically use a smaller frame mounted 60V, 620 watt-hour lithium-ion battery pack in about 25 miles, then if I need to go long distance have a second 620wah pack I can add to a rear cargo rack. the normal use I find I don't need the extra pack as I can charge the lithium iron pack very quickly. lithium iron battery technology can also be better accommodated with more of a moped/Cargo bike design that seems a better fit for most people looking for alternative transportation, and I'm surprised that cargo bike manufacturers haven't already adopted lithium iron battery technology. Thanks again and Stay Mobile!
@UtterEntertainment
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the info.
@apergiel
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for this. Yep, UL or similar certification. Other much more common hazards 1) cell phone batterys, I was curious about a old battery, it ignited in a unextinguishable hot hot fire, an eyeopener (yes outside away from other flammables) 2) Gasoline, my apartment allows automobiles with 20 gallons of gas or more to drive up the parking ramp, many floors to park within 20 feet of a sleeping quarters. 3) And whats to keep a ignoramus to carry a gallon of gas into a residential structure? So yeah easily to get wrapped around the axle on this....on all safety issues. Hopefully , cooler (non-flammable) heads will prevail on this issue.
@HarryLovesRuth
Жыл бұрын
Dorms. The potential knock on effect of e-bike bans in NYC residential property is that university dormitories will also ban ebikes.
@Cl0ckcl0ck
Жыл бұрын
The EU does have standards on batteries. It falls under this. Maybe you can work from this one. It's for sale on multiple sites but YT won't allow me to put links here. EN 15194: “This European Standard is intended to cover electrically power assisted cycles of a type which have a maximum continuous rated power of 0,25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling. This European Standard specifies safety requirements and test methods for the assessment of the design and assembly of electrically power assisted bicycles and sub-assemblies for systems using battery voltage up to 48 VDC or integrated a battery charger with a 230 V input. This European Standard specifies requirements and test methods for engine power management systems, electrical circuits including the charging system for the assessment of the design and assembly of electrically power assisted cycles and sub-assemblies for systems having a voltage up to and including 48 VDC or integrated a battery charger with a 230 V input.”
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the feedback. I have heard a bit about this and I will look to investigate further
@Cl0ckcl0ck
Жыл бұрын
@@Propelbikes I just pulled it from a Dutch site but I'm sure your Dutch suppliers would be happy to give you all the details. :)
@nelsjustason9559
Жыл бұрын
Such a relevant topic in todays world, batteries for almost everything we live with and use ( cars, phones, cameras - the list goes on), I am also concerned and glad you have taken the time and effort to start the realization and much needed conversation on the issue. I would like think that there is a data reference as to the type and manufacture of the hazardous batteries, not to point fingers but data is needed to help fill in the conversation on e.bike battery safety.
@theowink
Жыл бұрын
Put a timer on the adapter
@johnwright8814
Жыл бұрын
I think that a contributing factor is that the American market expects higher power from their bikes than the Europeans, where power is restricted to 250W, and speed is restricted to 15mph. High power systems inevitably leads to higher currents in the batteries and control systems, whether they are designed for it or not.
@GroovyVideo2
Жыл бұрын
chargers / charging is most risky time - Smarter chargers good place to start - increase Standards for Chargers and BMS - Decide on Standard Charger Plug to battery - Lipo cells are most risky - wonder number of fires that Lipo involved ?
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
definitely good measures. But I believe we are beyond the point of just improving our personal habits and practices.
@scb2scb2
Жыл бұрын
even before i watch i can say, depends on which battery there is not enough consistency between brands and because a good battery that we demand become bigger and bigger each year cost are high brands will cut corners.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
This is the point for sure! We need consistency and standards to prevent cutting corners.
@scb2scb2
Жыл бұрын
@@Propelbikes yeah i am not happy that for my r&m a new bosch battery is 800+ euro's and we don't have to be that smart to figure out many of these say $1200 bikes total are not using $800-$900 batteries, controllers and chargers. but safety costs money in all parts of these bikes
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
from what I have seen, the Bosch batteries are the safest in the business. They really hold no punches there. Keep in mind they are battery experience comes from the power tool industry and those guys are really hard on those things.
@stevencowles8419
Жыл бұрын
There was a house burned down in my small town in the UK only last week with the fire service naming an ebike battery as the cause, if nothing else this has the potential to put people off as the press are certainly not interested in fine detail and just search for dramatic headlines
@Pipsicle330
Жыл бұрын
Yes, but it clearly stated it was a DIY eBike. Someone messing around and clearly not knowing what they were doing.
@AEFisch
Жыл бұрын
How much of this problem is inferior or mismatched chargers vs the batteries themselves?
@dgmithril
Жыл бұрын
Hey, Chris, you're right; this is hard to talk about, especially as a New Yorker. I personally held my tongue on this topic until now, but you've been concerned about this kind of stuff and you said that this factored into why you only decided to carry bikes with Bosch systems in a previous video, and you foresaw this would become a problem in the industry. But these kinds of situations are the kind where saying "I told you so" doesn't feel all that good, you just wish someone listened. This is especially a difficult conversation to have in the United States because we pride ourselves on innovation, individualism, and personal freedoms, and so I imagine there will be some people that will say regulations of any kind infringe upon our rights and is NYC government overreaching again, etc, etc. There will be people with strong beliefs on how individuals should be free to assess their own risks and make decisions based on their individual assessments, and that government should not stick its nose where it doesn't belong, that the market will decide blah blah. But let's keep talking about it. Like you said, I hope this is a conversation starter between fellow enthusiasts as well as industry retailers/manufacturers. As an industry in its infancy, these conversations are part of the growing pains. Your idea about a conversation with Louis Rossmann would be a great opportunity. Also, like you said, we're not engineers, but I think you can talk to engineers and make things more digestible for the average person. Sorry for the long comment. Keep at it, Chris.
@scottrichards3587
Жыл бұрын
Better regulation is necessary. Any batteries without UL certification should be illegal. The problem lies with cheap mail order and Walmart ebikes using substandard batteries. Consumers expect that the products they purchase meet safety requirements.
@martinturcotte2371
Жыл бұрын
Thank you for all the time and effort you put in sharing valuable information. It helped me narrow my shopping down to only Bosch motorized eMTBs from Trek for my wife and I. I just wish I could have bought our ebikes from Propel, but your shops are too far from Quebec City, QC Canada. We both love cycling with our eMTBs because they help us gradually get back in shape. And the confidence we have when charging their batteries is primarily because of the extra investment Bosch has been making in testing their system for charging safety as well (something we learned from your channel!). I already know my next bike will be a Riese & Muller Superdelite Mountain, which I may try to buy from Propel then (especially if you open shops closer to where I live!)...
@julieflagg9171
Жыл бұрын
Bring on the regulations as soon as possible before we have a massive catastrophe. There has been plenty of warning. Social media and bike shops are probably the best way to get the word out . What is the next best action here to get this ball rolling in the right direction. Awaiting my Reise Mueller ( from Propel) after wearing my non Bosch kit e bike out luckily no fires. Thanks for this important conversation. Connecticut safety obsessed physician.
@PeterSchaller
Жыл бұрын
I am following the progress of available ebikes for years now. I'm in Europe and not seeing them lower end products in huge numbers, what I see in the US "ready to be shipped". Yes, we can also order them from Asian countries, but they take forever to arrive and pay extra taxes and warranty issues and so on.. What i hear tho is that apartment blocks banning electric cars to be charged in their underground carparks. Thanks for the video!
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
Thanks Peter. It does seem to be different in the EU for a number of reasons
@jeffbearce4830
Жыл бұрын
UL is in the USA, CE in Europe, I own a few items that are certified by one or the other. Maybe Europe is using CE to certify their batteries. I bought a Bikonit e- bike and had my batteries recall do to chance of fire when charging, there are companies that self-check their products
@GrantSR
Жыл бұрын
My suggestion is to push for ALL batteries made in or sold to the US to be UL listed. BUT, also that all of those UL listed batteries be internally tagged with lithium-fire-proof, difficult-to-counterfeit, micro-tags (like in explosives), so any batteries that DO start fires can be identified. Customs inspector can open a random sampling of batteries to check for these tags and/or send those samples to UL for testing. Will this make batteries more expensive? Yes. Well it be worth it? You betcha! Maybe it will create an opening for safer battery designs to come to the market.
@DavyOneness
Жыл бұрын
This is why I use LiFePo4 batteries, they don't have these issues. Sure they are a little bigger and heavier, but worth the piece of mind. This is one of the solutions.
@dirkvanderlaarse1878
Жыл бұрын
Hello Chris, I Know US regulators are hesitant to European rules, but every product sold in the European Union has to apply to CE-regulations. The reason why Lithium Ion batteries and loaders are expensive is that the batteries have to be monitored during loading. If the battery warms up, loading must be ended. All Lithium Ion batteries are a real hazard during loading if they are not monitored, even the tiny ones in smartphones. So the legislators in NY should even forbid indoor smartphone charging indoors.....
@theaveragejoe5781
Жыл бұрын
I doubt all Europeans monitor their ebike battery while loading, so this is likely not the reason for less fires.
@stoutdog56
Жыл бұрын
Thanks Chris! I respect your opinion on the industry and your knowledge, frankness and honesty is greatly appreciated. I no longer leave my batteries charging for extended periods. I now use a timer to cut off the charge cycle before they are fully charged and in a well ventilated place as a preventative measure.
@alangillanders2811
Жыл бұрын
they're starting to have the same problems with air fryers with new brands coming into the market causing kitchen fires when not being used but left plugged in on standby
@earlkoropatnick1928
Жыл бұрын
Companies simple will say "let the buyer beware", so standards or regulations are a must. Also people don't understand the danger of charging batteries overnight [ 11 hours to balance the battery once a month ] or putting the battery on a charge and going out for supper. Education must also be included.
@waltersmithat70
Жыл бұрын
Hello, I just watched your complete video! I wanted to share with you how I go about safely charging my e-bike battery. I live in a condo, I have the battery in a metal trash can out on the patio and the trash can is insulated with three layers of 1000 degree insulating wrap that is it's wrapped all the way around the battery on the inside of the can on the top and the bottom 4 layers at 1000 degree temperature rating with each layer .1000 x 4 = 4000 deg. Whereas typically e-bike battery Burns at 3300 degrees. And then I have a cam Buckle strap wrapped around the can through the handle on the top of the can that secures the lid in the event of the battery Catching Fire which would create not only fire but compression from the burning. Once again I said this is out on my patio not in the envelope of the building. The charger has a timer on it so that it will shut off even in the event that the BMS fails.I always charge when I'm present and awake. You are providing a great service!
@swhlaw
Жыл бұрын
The big ebike brands are not going to police the entire industry. CPSC will have to. That will take more than a year. They are way behind the curve. Regulation and standards are really the only way these issues get solved effectively
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
thanks, Steven! and thanks for the work that you’re doing in the industry to help us move in the right direction.
@StevenWHansen
Жыл бұрын
@@Propelbikes People for Bikes needs to lead the way for the industry side of things. But they cant do it all NBDA has to help too. Its going to be a very big effort to get this done right. Again City Councils should not be leading this
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
you know that’s a really great point! I guess that speaks more to the industry not being able to regulate itself. It does seem like the NBDA is making some efforts but really I haven’t heard much from People for Bikes and I think that that’s a misstep on their part.
@domingoc9721
Жыл бұрын
Great video Chris and thank you for the information of this topic. This is a very serious issue but what strikes me is that most of the reasons that they are catching fire as they are doing in NYC are because of many factors such as over charging, cheap batteries as mentioned without BMS, Cheap scooters with bad wiring, etc. If they are truly concerned with this matter and the government wants to act on this, they should pay the companies to rebuild the batteries made from LifPo4 which are safer than the Lithium-Ion batteries and they would prevent alot of fires and hazzards. They immediately want to pass the grunt over to the consumer who already paid the money trusting that this is safe and if it is UL listed and they are still burning up, they should hold the agency accountable but you know how this is here, a finger pointing match and no one wants to take accountability. NYC has the most reports of electric bikes and scooter fires than anywhere else in the countries. Also, wanted to add that some riders or delivery riders with ebikes or scooters, charge their devices immediately and do not give at least an hour for the batteriess to cool down as that is another reason that they can ignite due to overloading or over heating. Just my 2 cents.
@michaelmorris1802
Жыл бұрын
UL is a place to start, but honestly UL no longer impresses me... I have purchased some stuff recently with UL on it, and frankly I determined it was below my personal standard... (not e-bike related, but solar related). I run Bosch systems on my Bikes, and still monitor them carefully... I live in a single family residence... but everything here is mine, and I worked very hard for it, therefore no matter what brand it is, It's not set and forget. When I charge my batteries, I am personally present in the space until they are disconnected, and have rested for a period of time. If based on weather I decide to bring them in, they go in a completely metal container that has temp sensors, and smoke detectors. next to it. I am in favor of right to repair, and manufacturers should make it much easier to do this. Bosch needs to work on this in a serious way... it's crazy how locked down these systems are. The software should be highly parameterized so that end users can tweak things within limits.. as an IT guy with 40 years experience on this very topic it makes me crazy that I can't do anything with these systems. Making people look for ways to hack them... which is not the way we want this to go. It's just a piece of software... make it accessible, understandable, and modifiable with limits.
@JWest1
Жыл бұрын
My opinion on batteries. There are a couple factors that go into battery safety 1) the user, having knowledge will keep you safe. 2) battery chemistry and proper use, which goes back to point number one, 3) short circuiting the battery. There are batteries that are not safe, lipo batteries being the biggest one, they produce tons of power, but are quick to vent if they are punctured or damaged in any way. If you are going to use lipo batteries, you should have them well protected and ensure they don't overheat. There are different types of lipo's as well, your normal chemistry batteries, and the graphene batteries. Graphene batteries seem to be the safest option when using lipo batteries, but the same precautions apply. As of this time, the safest batteries to use are Lithium-Ion batteries, they can take a beating and keep on ticking. They hold up to heat well, they can take a fall within reason, and they are hard pressed to vent unlike their lipo cousins are. The downside is size, while they are small, they can take up a lot of room when building a pack, depending on the size of pack you need these battery systems can become quite large. I would love to build an electric bike, while I have an idea of what batteries I will use, I'm still doing research on what will work the best. I'm the guy that researches stuff to the point I'm almost an expert before I pick up a tool lol. Chances are I'm going to go with graphene lipo batteries personally. Graphene batteries don't make a huge difference, but they are a slightly safer composition or chemistry than your conventional lipo's are. Now here's the thing, I know battery safety, I know what the batteries are capable of and what they are not capable of, I will also "over build" the battery pack. Meaning I will have far more capacity than I realistically need in order to ensure the batteries aren't being over worked, which removes the chance of them overheating, which I'm willing to bet money that most of these fires and such are stemming from. You have to have a sufficient controller, BMS, and batteries that are in good working order to not have a fire, if you throw any of those out of wack you're begging for disaster. Shorting a battery is just about the dumbest thing you can every do, if you love to have stuff dump every ounce of energy is has in your face, that's what shorting a battery will do for ya, DONT DO IT. Take the time to comb over every inch of the battery and quadruple check the connections to ensure they are tight and good to go, you screw this up and you are in a world of hurt so pay attention! Also, if you aren't 100% sure of a battery you purchased from China, DONT USE IT, you are far better off building your own if you have the slightest inclination that the battery wasn't produced properly. Better safe than sorry, and chances are you can build a better, higher capacity battery yourself. Yes it will cost a bit more, but you'll be happier in the long run. Stay safe everyone and use common sense!
@kenpoken4203
10 ай бұрын
I am from the U.K and bought a brand new e bike battery with charger in august this year, it was delivered at 2pm and put on charge, it finished charging at 5.55pm. I went over and unplugged it and it was so hot, before I had chance to think it started popping and then exploded, a sheet of flame shot out over 3 feet along with smoke.I was in a first floor flat and the hallway where the battery was exploding was blocking the front door. I managed to get in the front room but knew if I stayed there I would die, I went into the kitchen unfortunately breathing in toxic fumes, got onto the draining board in the kitchen and out through the kitchen window after dropping 12 feet onto concrete. To cut along story short, the flat was burnt out, I had soft tissue injuries along with a blood clot in my leg, pneumonia and the trauma I suffered means I will never have an electric bike ever again especially after seeing others exploding and the fatalities in e battery fires. Its a great shame as I have had an e bike for three years and its been fine, this was a brand new battery from a reputable supplier, I really dont know what the answer is except to educate consumers about the dangers and wherever possible charge outdoors and never at night.
@olzt100
Жыл бұрын
I think the problem starts with new companies breaking into bicycle industry. They are trying to lower the cost of e-bikes and get market share. An electric motor and a bike does not have to be very expensive. So I would say a new bike company with mid to low end priced e-bikes wii have the the largest risk to malfunctions. The traditional bike makers are going to keep their prices up and use more expensive and trusted supplier of motors.
@mcc.o.4835
Жыл бұрын
I bought a Zarges K470 battery box. If there's a fire, it's contained in the box.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
This is a great measure but likely not a common practice
@mcc.o.4835
Жыл бұрын
@@Propelbikes It's a real risk. Yeah agree with your comment.
@kevinnielsen1356
Жыл бұрын
It seems to me low quality chargers are a contributing factor, along with consumer ignorance of charging. Personally I use only high tech chargers from Luna. These chargers will charge to 80%, 90%, or 100% at rates of 1,2,3,4 or 5 amh. An 80 to 90% charge is sufficient for almost every ride, battery life is greatly extended. When charging at 2 or 3 amh to 80 or 90% the potential for fire is almost zero. Batteries need a 100% balancing charge every 30 or so charges. These Luna charges have a trickle feature on the 2amh setting that lowers the charging amperage as the battery approaches 100%. This slows the charge and allows the battery cells to balance without building up any heat. Low tech chargers shock batteries with full charging current repeatedly after they 'shut off' as cells are balancing. Listen to a low tech charger after it initially shuts off, leave it pluged in. In a little while the charger will blast the battery again as the battery voltage drops due to cell balancing. Let it stay pluged in. This cycle will occur several times. If someone routinely charges with these low tech chargers, leaving them connected all night, well, recipe for disaster. My contention is most fires are due to low tech chargers and the lack of battery knowledge. Your thoughts?
@kippywylie
Жыл бұрын
My eFoil very powerful battery caught fire in July and I blame the Lithos charger (and my sloppy habits). I purchased the efoil and payed no attention to proper battery safety & maintenance. I'd use it down to %10 then immediately place it on the charger for days. Fortunately the fire occurred outside and not in an occupied space as this would have taken down the entire house
@kevinnielsen1356
Жыл бұрын
@@kippywylie That charger wasn't fully turning off. It would blast the battery again and again as the battery cells balance. As cells balance the voltage drops. This is why high tech chargers are a must, these fully turn off at the end of the charge. I like Luna chargers which are an excellent value. The fellow who owns Luna is a battery engineer. Satiator is another top notch charger, more $ but has more features.
@johngilman760
Жыл бұрын
Thank you for addressing this most important issue/problem.
@zanniesmom
19 күн бұрын
One of the major reasons I bought an Addmotor etrike is the UL certified battery. And made sure the smoke detector in the garage is working.
@jamesbonander
Жыл бұрын
the EU created a safety standard for batteries for bicycle, EN 15194 CE -2020, this regulation requires a thermostat in the battery that cuts off power to the battery during charging. the real issue is that the battery design become closer to how cell phone batteries which had similar. The consumer product safety commission is hugely underfunded. but a class action law suit against Alibaba for selling substandard products. Once E sellers are held to liable for selling substandard product.
@xavierliebaert2000
Жыл бұрын
In Europe, every electric / electronic product has to have the "CE" stamp, meaning the product complies with a minimum safety and production standard. Non compliance with standards or lack of this stamp is enough for national authorities to ban/seize/destroy the product.
@tom.jacobs
Жыл бұрын
Not sure if it is our (I’m Dutch) focus on sustainability, what I do know is that here there is no real lower end of the market: they simply don’t get sold (offline), so the ones riding are directly sold from places are from outside EU. (and maybe they will be blocked by customs, because I hardly see them) It’s not that China is making bad products: Some manufacturers want to get as low as possible, so they cut corners: designing/manufacturing save products is more costly, and quality control is often a hassle that is taken out of outsourcing. The newest bike I own, from a new (Dutch) brand in the market of e-bikes, also had a problem with batteries, and it took 1 facebook post to recall all batteries (putting a big blow in the launch into the market), and absolutely make them realize they need to do more quality control on outsourced parts. And recently a Irish - also pretty new in market - manufacturer of e-bikes took all of the bikes of the market, and did a full recall because a possible risk in design. Maybe the possibility of bad publicity was the focus for the recalls, but safety is pretty high on the radar here. Maybe high enough that a manufacturers would rather go bankrupt on a recall then to find somebody got hurt because of mistakes they have made.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
I think part of the challenges that in the US they kind of require the consumer to report these issues to CPSC.. I think the average consumer is not aware of this procedural element. Frank, I believe if it happened more regularly We would likely see more products recalled like you’re seeing there in the Netherlands.
@tom.jacobs
Жыл бұрын
@@Propelbikes Naming brands doesn't help in security matters? If a certain brand.. say one that has same abbriviation as Research and Manufactoring would have a defect i think certain people would be eager to know, while the manufactorer is doing everything possible to solve? ;-) Also just realised: smoke-detectors are mandatory here, not sure how that is in NY/USA.
@emma70707
Жыл бұрын
I do wonder how much of the issue is NYC-specific vs. a high density of early adopters. Yes, cheap ebikes are a thing nationally--plenty of college students have joined r/ebikes recently looking for cheap ebikes--but there's nothing quite like the pressure of food delivery people in urban areas who might be running through four batteries a night. I could imagine they're really pushing the charging capacity in subpar conditions. I had a Bosch ebike for many years and the needed to switch to one with a throttle when my knee became worse and really hated that I needed to trade to a less safe system, but I've just been more mindful to charge to only ~90%, to do so close to when I'm going out so it's not stored close to full for long, to keep it at a proper temp, etc. I expect many newbie ebike wonder who didn't purchase from a shop received no education in taking care of their battery and the food delivery people are pushing their batteries in the absolute worst way with hundred of cycles a year in hot and cold conditions from 100% to close to 0%; that's probably not the case for most riders. In Europe, you don't seem to be seeing the same and I wonder if that's because the food bikers seem to be largely employees, not individual contractors, based on the couple videos I've seen about ghost delivery shops where they take branded bikes that are managed by the companies, who would be incentivized to take good care of the batteries. So, yes, I would be highly in favor of federal regulation to 1) require the cost of recycling/remanufacturing the battery be part of the initial cost and that the systems be in place within the next 2-3 years and 2) have actual safety features be part of all e-bike batteries sold here. However, I do wonder how much of the issue run of the mill consumers are likely to see if the treat the battery with a reasonable amount of care. I would definitely prefer our collective safety in apartments not depend on the "weakest link" for battery care, but I also expect that this is a rare issue made more common by a weird situation that happens to occur in NYC specifically. I'd happily pay more for peace of mind and better press though so it doesn't endanger the switch to e-bikes more widely though!
@buddy1155
Жыл бұрын
I did a bit of research on Dutch sites: 3.7% of all fires is caused by battery fires. This include e-bikes, EVs, Laptops and phones. The problem is mostly caused by previous generation of batteries, current batteries seem to be a lot saver.
@bern4679
Жыл бұрын
I charge my battery outside in a hooded bbq, I don't know if it's needed but better safe than sorry.
@TechyBen
Жыл бұрын
One word. Cigarettes. (and their fires) People can manage the risk if they want to. I see bikes as a lot better than cigarettes. If we can sort something like that, we can sort something like this. If there is a risk, we can manage it. If it's an exaggeration, I hope you can get the truth out!
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
Great point for sure. Perhaps some of the improvement in this area had to do on some level with education. I do remember many PSAs related to people falling to sleep smoking cigarettes. I think some of this legislation includes some similar types of education. But I think this needs to be a multi prong approach, and we definitely need to deal with the low quality products that are commonly causing these fires.
@TechyBen
Жыл бұрын
@@Propelbikes Yep. Part of that solution was also making the chairs and beds fire proof. As you say "charging in a safe place". I think it's both. Charging in a safe place, and also safety of the pack either in design, or fuses/failure prevention. We had one of our floor scrubbers catch fire, and that was a normal lead acid car battery, but left on charge for 6 months through lock down! :P
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
We have a long way to go, but we need to start somewhere
@ericdelmar2618
Жыл бұрын
Chris, thank you for providing this painful discussion. Thanks to you, I chose a UL-listed Bosch system for my Gazelle ebike, knowing that battery fires were a growing storm, certain to challenge the industry. I'd love to know what goes wrong to trigger the battery fires, although it's probably multiple factors, such as bad battery management systems, poor quality control for the manufacture of lithium cells, faulty or mis-matched chargers, charging hot batteries or frozen batteries, charging batteries that have been dropped, etc. I'd also like to know more about UL's testing protocol, and if UL's testing methodology is itself imperfect. It may be that the long-term solution--switching to solid-state batteries--is the only bullet-proof solution to this problem. Short term, harm reduction is needed, and I agree that regulations must be at the federal level to bring about something closer to forced compliance. Lastly, yes, you may be just a guy with a bike store and you make KZitem videos, but you're a voice of reason and compassion; you care for people and the industry. Surely you're a valuable voice for guiding the changes needed to improve Americans' safety and peace of mind.
@jeffhopkins8131
Жыл бұрын
As a retailer of quality ebikes, I’m guessing you’ve had zero issues, cheap Chinese products are cheap for a reason, poor design and testing/ low quality control etc. The solution is in every buyers choice, don’t buy cheaply.
@johnstarratt6473
Жыл бұрын
From previous experience with hospital equipment, getting a UL certificate is some what complicated each unit type (make and model ) will require a separate review and with all the advancements in technology this will be an ongoing effort and may take up to year for each certificate. I doubt there will be single certificate that would cover ebike batteries as a whole.
@anibalapunte
Жыл бұрын
It’s up to the government to find out who the bike companies that are making the faulty product instead of coming down on the person buying it. It’s like if there’s a car that keeps catching on fire. They can’t ban all cars and take peoples cars away. They need to come down on who the companies that are selling faulty bikes and come down on them. We need to stop these only faulty companies from selling is dangerous products.
@mrd6093
6 ай бұрын
I BELIEVE THAT THE UL CERTIFICATION IS A REAL SET BACK FOR SOME OF THOSE VERY EXPENSIVE MOUNTAIN BIKES AND THATS LIKE WOW!
@stylishlyrugged3372
Жыл бұрын
This specific topic is what holds me back from buying an ebike. I'm looking at Aventon, assuming they'll be safer, but I'm still concerned. I live in high-rise, 11th floor to be exact. I worry about the battery catching fire and trapping my wife and myself.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
You could buy an eBike battery tested to the NYC firecode which is UL 2849. To my understanding Aventon doesn't meet this standard.
@stylishlyrugged3372
Жыл бұрын
@@Propelbikes Wow. I didn't know that about Aventon. Thanks. Is that info available on most companies website? I was also considering Ride 1 Up and Velotric.
@billsmith5593
Жыл бұрын
Just a note. We have the same problem with general aviation. News outlets don't have the knowledge to report so they inflame it for eyeballs. Spokesmen within your association need to be ready to address the issue. UL is the only group for now that can certify this for now .
@scueva
Жыл бұрын
Excellent points but standards and enforcing those standards would be the only way to ensure compliance.
@alexhofvander
Жыл бұрын
Battery abuse also. Too much motor for the battery capacity. Some diy projects I have seen and been feeling sorry for the small battery.
@Bxprman
Жыл бұрын
I look at my battery every 30 min to see if it's charge but some don't that's part of the problem.solution make a annoying alarm that the charger can make or battery to alert who ever charging them its time to unplug it. Or a charger or battery automatically cut it off from over charging. Part of the problem fixed.
@cedriclynch
Жыл бұрын
Part of the problem is with batteries and chargers that are not defective in themselves but are not correct for use with each other, for example the charger is intended for a battery of higher voltage and overcharges the battery. Possibly a solution is a standard for communication between the battery and the charger, so that the battery can signal to the charger "all my cells are within the specified voltage and temperature, it is OK to charge" or "there is at least one cell that is at the maximum permitted voltage or temperature, please stop". This should still be safe if the battery and charger were not intended to be used together. A cause of E-bike fires that has been suggested by some people in the UK is that maybe someone steals an E-bike and so has not got the matching charger, and buys a charger over the Internet that is the wrong voltage.
@georgekarnezis4311
Жыл бұрын
Looking for to watching this I appreciate you getting ahead of the narrative on this. Edit: after watching you are right that this needs to be addressed at a federal level requiring UL. In Canada ULC and Europe CE. We have systems in place to help protect consumers. It does get more tricky about right to repair. But all in all I think the industry needs to bully these crappy components out of existence.
@pauldenney7908
Жыл бұрын
It would be interesting to see what make of battery packs are causing problems, I bet it won't be Bosch or Shimano. No it will be cheap unbranded scooters imported from China and sold on EBay. Lithium Ion battery stores large amounts of energy in a battery made with a flammable metal and a flammable electrolyte its as potentially dangerous as a tank of gas. These things have to be regulated, as cars are now, you wouldn't dream of filling a plastic bag with gasoline in your apartment would you, but that's what you are doing if you recharge a cheap battery pack. The problem though is not the tech, EVs have far less fires than fossil fuel vehicles, the problem is the implementation of the tech and its a failure of regulation.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
Good point for sure Paul, but I will say even some of the bigger brands have issues when they don't utilize independent testing. Too much is left to chance at that point.
@alexanderkyte4675
Жыл бұрын
There isn’t a 1:1 correlation between fabs and brands either. It might be difficult to establish a “contract tracing” of explosive batteries.
@pauldenney7908
Жыл бұрын
@@Propelbikes Nothing can every be 100% safe I agree but I can't believe that the big companies leave that much to chance. I used to do safety critical testing in the automotive industry, the chances of having accidents that result in loss of life are very small. I have also written reports for UK trading standards on cheap Chinese electrical goods and the risk there is very high. Some parts of the world have excellent standards CE in Europe and UL in the USA, companies like Alibaba and Ebay bypass them all together.
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
Very interesting to hear your perspective and professional experience here. I was also surprised to see the little regard that some of the larger companies put on this. I guess if you can find a way to sweep it under the carpet why bother. Not how I would handle but this mentality seems common. I think it becomes difficult when you have a lot of sun cost into a product.
@tayh3168
9 ай бұрын
My varla scooter caught fire while charging today and only had 500 miles on it took the fire department half an hour to put out the fire !!
@macbaryum
Жыл бұрын
I trust my Bosch system 100%. I don't trust any ebike crap sold on AliExpress.
@Demystar
Жыл бұрын
Same
@gettingby
Жыл бұрын
Should people living in your apartment building be forced to trust your bike batteries, too? They get no benefit from your ebike, but are at risk from it.
@Demystar
Жыл бұрын
@@gettingby Shitty batteries of course not, but most people in apartments are also using cheap shit like extension cords and power packs they bought from amazon that also aren't UL (like Bosch is certified) and are really liable to catch fire..
@NL2500
Жыл бұрын
The question is also how this relates to other causes. In the Netherlands we have many e-bikes and this issue is of course also an issue. But we also look at how this relates to all other causes. In 2020, batteries were the cause in 3.7% of all fires, but that also includes phones and laptops. A whopping 33% of all fires here trace back to smoking and another 20% start in the kitchen. The focus on one product with countless manufactures, some good and others less so, seems like a bit of a witch hunt. A ban on the sale of cigarettes would be much more effective, for several reasons, but you don't hear anyone talking about that. Part of the problem is, of course, that these fires are often discovered later than with a house fire. Mandatory fire alarms, when parking an e-bike in the cellars, could help with this. And just like with cars, I think it's okay too make demands on the quality before you put them on the road in America and Europe.
@DavyOneness
Жыл бұрын
Europe doesn't have UL because they have what is called TUV testing instead over there.
@Freco1967
Жыл бұрын
Thanks so much for posting this thoughtful video. I have a Blix and reached out to them about the batteries on my Packa. They responded saying that their batteries are UL compliant, but not UL certified. This seems a little gray to me but it's somewhat comforting I suppose... I'll continue to charge only on my basement cement floor during the day when I'm home, not far from the smoke alarm. Has the NYC fire department provided any details about the batteries that have spontaneously combusted? Any commonality to the circumstances? Are they all grade C batteries from dubious sources? Are they being used in conjunction in the wrong battery chargers? Were the batteries damaged prior to charging? It would be enormously helpful to know more details about these fires which might enable landlords to ban problematic products without blanket restrictions on all electric assist bikes. Also, aren't all apartments required to have smoke alarms and fire extinguishers? I don't fully understand how these fires are happening.
@ishouldbesleeping1354
Жыл бұрын
I’ve spent hours of my life watching so many videos on what to buy and now…I don’t know if I can consciously do it
@MKronos
Жыл бұрын
UL bikes are clearly not a complete list including some of the major American retail options. I'm sure you're gonna have a lot of pople wondering, is my ____-brand ebike battery safe? Where should we look for this type of info? What should we look for regarding the specs of our bike batteries to know whether they could be a problem?
@Propelbikes
Жыл бұрын
Those sound like smart questions everyone should.be asking but they are not. A lot of assumptions and misinformation going around.
@TheScourge007
Жыл бұрын
When I got my e-bike your channel helped influence me to make sure I got an e-bike with a Bosch motor and battery. It was a pricier bike (though I my mom got a cheaper one also with Bosch electrical parts and it's great), but I absolutely love it and get lots of compliments for it. But I think if there's not good safety standards e-bikes are going to be a fad that goes away which would be tragic. On the innovation question, I think most innovations aren't really necessary to give the large majority of consumers what they need and want. Good bikes for day to day use are standard on the market. And regulation doesn't destroy all innovation. Cars have lots of regulation and still manage to innovate. Same is true for many industries. While losing the DIY trends and feel of e-bikes is a bit sad, it's just part of an industry becoming something that actually serves consumer needs rather than hobbyist needs. And this is especially true when a product can be a hazard even to bystanders who didn't buy it as ebike fires hurt everyone in the building not just a person who buys the bike and knows the risks. All this to say, safety regulation is good. Ebikes already have some regulation with speed limits on motor support (which is a great idea that maybe more cars should have too...), but batteries are the next step. Every time an industry faces regulation some of the players in it scream bloody murder and declare that regulation will sink the industry. And pretty much every time while regulation causes change, the added safety makes more people feel comfortable buying and protects those consumers. E-bikes have far too much potential to not have appropriate regulation and I do hope it's nationwide and focuses on providing a solid basis in safety. We can ask for all the infrastructure in the world to make the act of riding these bikes safe, but all that will be for nothing if they catch on fire in our homes.
@johnfleming3289
Жыл бұрын
Buying cheap electrical goods from Asia, with minimal electrical safety standards, is just asking for trouble.
@alainpic1
Жыл бұрын
Difficult subject and one that could really damage the market but regulation from the quality standards is the only real solution in my view.
@simoncroft9792
Жыл бұрын
Family experience of charging lithium battery pack in a hallway resulted in a nearly fatal situation. This was a high power bike light not even an ebike battery. I dont charge anything more powerful than my phone inside the house now.
@kerrysum1952
Жыл бұрын
Thank you for the excellent video. I am very interested in e-bikes. In the $2000.00 range. Batteries have always been skeptical in many ways, You made many good points in your video.
@graasroots
Жыл бұрын
If you don't read the instructions about the battery when you buy the bike you're an idiot. Never leave them plugged in longer than it takes to charge. End of story, keeping the battery between 20 and 80% when storing long-term also helps.
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