I do wish the stats for the battery had been covered in the episode, but I was able to find it online. The battery shown is the Redflow ZBM3 battery. It holds 10kWh @ 48V and power is 3kW (0.3C), and it weighs 530 pounds (240kg). The final spec that I really really need to know is the cost!! I'm expecting somewhere in the range of $5k - $10k to be competitive with LiFe batteries. Obviously main cons here are weight related, so power density per kg and energy density per kg. For reference my Chevy Bolt battery weighs about 1000 pounds (so, two of these) and holds 66kWh (3.3x as energy dense) and can provide >150kW of power (>25x as power dense).
@gbulmer
Жыл бұрын
What voltage does your Chevy Bolt battery produce? (I understand Power = Voltage x Current, so I am interested to know the voltage) Best Wishes. ☮
@rocksfire4390
Жыл бұрын
Bill Carlson these are not made to go into anything that moves. they are to be setup in buildings or outside and stay there until they need to be replaced.
@pauld3327
Жыл бұрын
A Standard range Tesla Model 3 with a 60 kWh battery pack is $43,000. Let's say the battery pack makes up for half the price of the car, you pay $21,500 for a 60 kWh battery pack. That's $358 / kHw. If this battery wants to be competitive with LFP batteries, It needs to be less than $3000 for 10 kWh.
@mjp0815
Жыл бұрын
Cheers
@koenraad4618
Жыл бұрын
The number of recharge cycli before the battery deteriorates is an important figure in battery comparison. If the red-flow battery can do 10 times more recharge cycli than Li-ion (LiFP for instance), then it is a much cheaper energy storage technology considering the life span of the battery. The red-flow battery is not suitable of mobile applications.
@aigarius
Жыл бұрын
The big problem with this tech is that it is not *really* a flow battery. What people actually think of as a flow battery is an energy storage system where the active part (plates in the case) do *not* change in any way during charge/discharge process. If all chemical changes are contained in the fluid(s), then a battery capacity can be scaled trivially by making the tanks bigger. It doesn't work that way here because the plates get loaded with zink while charging and thus there is a maximum amount of liquid that one plate can process.
@adz574
Жыл бұрын
only matters if it's difficult to expand the number of plates, doesn't sound like that's the case
@williambridgman7365
Жыл бұрын
I was just thinking the same thing and wondering if this would effect the easy scaling. Thanks for answering this question. This really limits the cheap scaling of this battery. Other forms of flow battery can be scaled very cheaply with tank size increase.
@mindwarp4818
Жыл бұрын
I believe it’s a hybrid flow battery from what I’ve heard being discussed.
@Charvak-Atheist
3 ай бұрын
Yeah, But if it's cheap then it's okay
@JohnnyWednesday
Жыл бұрын
I love how honest and open this man from Redflow is - lovely chap!
@absolute___zero
Жыл бұрын
if he is so honest, why didn´t he tell us that bromine is very toxic and dangerous element? a little error in bromine capturing agent added to the electrolyte , and people will die if leak occurs. The only best battery is silver-zinc, it is not toxic, you can manufacture it at home, and you won't need to pay thousands of bucks to battery manufacturers.
@daansteeman5227
Жыл бұрын
@@absolute___zero That was something I noticed to. Zink isn't that bad, but bromine is scary stuff. To be fair, the natural gas everybody has in their home here is flamable as hell (pun inteded). But bromine is nothing to scoff at... I'd be interested to see what happens when something goes wrong with this. He is a lot more open about how and what than I would have thought. But the "its water with a few non toxic things added" was a bit..... To easily said I think. Perhaps he's correct (he obviously knows a lot more about it then me). But he also does have his product on the line. So a second opinion might be nice...
@rolexcel
Жыл бұрын
Great to see the progress being made by Redflow. I have been following them for years. My view is that we should save lithium for mobile applications where lower weight / higher energy density is critical and use other technologies such as flow batteries and Liquid Metal batteries (invented by Professor Donald Sadoway from MIT now being developed by Ambri) for static applications where weight and volume are not critical. This would help with both supply and prices for both. Flow batteries using cheaper materials need to scale up rapidly to lower their prices and should become much more competitive. Also of interest in Australia: The vanadium redox flow battery was developed by emeritus professor Maria Skyllas-Kazacos st the University of NSW in Sydney but unfortunately has not been commercialised much here in Australia yet. Large grid scale batteries using this technology have reached up to 400 MWh in China. Thomas Maschmeyer at the University of Sydney has developed a non flow zinc bromine battery that replaces the liquid with a gel and is now being commercialised by Gelion and interestingly can be manufactured in existing lead acid battery factories. Would be great if this could also be featured on the Fully Charged Show!
@autohmae
Жыл бұрын
And really put a lot of effort in recycling of lithium batteries.
@krrk6337
Жыл бұрын
So we've been following the same things really. I'm curious about Sadoway's battery though because I barely seen in media coverage lately (post-covid).
@TroySavary
Жыл бұрын
Totally agree. Lithium is the worst choice for stationary storage.
@wlhgmk
Жыл бұрын
The use of non Li batteries for static applications would bring down the price of EVs and speed their adoption.
@charlestoast4051
Жыл бұрын
@@wlhgmk In theory yes, but in reality EV prices will always be kept artificially high, and as soon as they are adopted on a wide scale, EV owners will be taxed to the hilt.
@Creepy-Girl
Жыл бұрын
Energy Storage really is an important part of the future and it's great to see that Redflow is trying to solve this. I would love for Fully Charged to cover the Swedish company Azelio as well. They use aluminium to store energy as heat and then they can transform heat into energy and also use the extra heat to warm up areas.
@Danger_mouse
Жыл бұрын
This makes me proud as an Australian to see stuff being made here 👍
@HaakonOfTheShadows
Жыл бұрын
Designed and researched in Australia. Made overseas. At least the high value work is being done here.
@Danger_mouse
Жыл бұрын
@@HaakonOfTheShadows Typical, that's less than impressive 😏
@toby9999
Жыл бұрын
It's impressive regardless of where they manufacture.
@Danger_mouse
Жыл бұрын
@@toby9999 Another case of our great tech and ideas, sent off to somewhere else to get made and not benifit our own country. Impressive, tech yes.
@ahrenadams
Жыл бұрын
@@Danger_mouse You talking about the South African in charge :)
@morosis82
Жыл бұрын
A friend of mine worked very high up in Redflow for a few years, a super interesting company, and has some quirky advantages over lithium ion that they've found some markets like. Unfortunate that they're expensive, but I hope that in time and with scale, they can bring that down. Their advantage is the longevity of life so it can be amortised over a much longer period than lithium.
@omargoodman2999
Жыл бұрын
That's the Achilles's Heel of any innovative technological application. It's very expensive for what it offers to start off, so it really relies on people willing to pay that premium price early on to give them what they need to scale and expand. But, unfortunately, what often happens is that lots of people stand on the sidelines and say, "I'm not sure this will go anywhere. I'll wait until it proves itself and the costs come down before I put my money into it." And then, when it ends up falling through because _everyone_ did that, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy; "See, I told you it wasn't going anywhere. I'm glad I didn't waste my money on that."
@newsgeekus1216
Жыл бұрын
Great video on the science, tech, solution availability and toxicity of the battery. Lots of good information. But would have loved info on cost and kw density (yes dependent on tank size). Would have loved to know the cost and capacity of that battery unit in the office.
@dyemanoz
Жыл бұрын
The Reflow battery is what is called a Hybrid Flow Battery. Unlike other types of flow battery, you can't just increase the volume of electrolyte to increase the battery capacity. There is a direct relationship between the volume of electrolyte and the capacity of the electrode plates to accept metallic zinc from the electrolyte. If you wanted to double the capacity, you would need to double the capacity of the electrode stack (or add another one - the earllier Gen 2.5 battery had two 5 kWh electrode stacks in the one battery). More importantly, it would double the size and weight of the battery, making it much more difficult to transport. I guess Redflow consider the current size as a good tradeoff between storage capacity and the logistics of transport.
@newsgeekus1216
Жыл бұрын
@@dyemanoz interesting, I missed that, but totally makes sense. Interesting trade off, increasing electrolyte storage is a great advantage of flow batteries. But having two electrons to give thus doubling capacity, is the trade off. Thanks for explaining.
@Berkeloid0
Жыл бұрын
Cost seems to be roughly AU $13k (USD 8,500) according to various web searches for the 3 kW / 10 kWh unit. So more expensive than lithium at the moment, but it does claim to have less degradation over its lifespan so in theory it should have a usable capacity for much longer than the 10 year warranty.
@EdWood110
Жыл бұрын
Great video, I was waiting for this for years, since you have released the first red flow battery video. Seems like a perfect battery for example at home, etc. Cannot wait to hear more about this in the coming years.
@i6power30
Жыл бұрын
What's the key starts? Life time charge cycles? Charge and discharging rate?
@Felix3301
Жыл бұрын
Could you please highlight some basic specs for this stuff? Round-trip efficiency? Max power output per unit etc. Those metrics are really what will make or break this tech cause it influences the financials. You can present that those types of metrics in a easy to understand way I'm sure. Just ask him stuff like; how many dryers could this thing power at the same time? It's funny and gives the audience a feeling for how much of this stuff is needed for actual usable storage
@adymode
Жыл бұрын
The unit stores 10 kwh, 80% round trip efficiency. 500-3000w discharge rate, 5kw peak. Electrodes want refurbished after 10 years daily cycling. Weight 240kgs, 90kg dry. Specs on redflow website.
@Chris_Carini
Жыл бұрын
Chemistry has never been more interesting! Hope it works out.
@sophrapsune
Жыл бұрын
I’ve had my eye on these batteries for years. They just seem to be the superior technology for a static (e.g. residential) application. However, when I seriously looked to buy some there were a few show-stoppers. They are big & heavy, requiring a forklift or other mechanical aid to place. They require a fair bit of space. They only play (or at least used to only play) with a limited range of solar inverters. The killer, though, is that in an urban residential application they still don’t make economic sense. Their return on investment is 10-15 years, depending on current grid tariffs. So I’d love to install these in my home but they still aren’t quite there. Perhaps as grid tariffs become more expensive and Redflow realise efficiencies of manufacture and scale, there will be a point at which they do make economic sense for the typical house on the grid. Having said all of that, they would be my first choice for any off-grid application. It’s a really promising product.
@mev202
Жыл бұрын
Rob, along with most of us who watched this video, nods along like he fully understands it all. When in reality, we're all going...eh...yer, sure, that's how it works.
@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589
Жыл бұрын
It's not that hard. When this compound is formed, it absorbs electrical energy. When it breaks down, it releases energy (electrons). Applying an electrical load releases electrons, which makes them flow/vibrate along conductors.
@sahastradhara
Жыл бұрын
@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 and we are going ...eh .....yer, sure that's how it works again
@javelinXH992
Жыл бұрын
Don’t worry, I work in the electroplating industry. It does make sense, and is basically electroplating. This is good tech, relatively simple tech at it’s heart, smartly re-engineered for the modern world. Simple, cost effective, cheap materials, readily available and understood. No significant fire issues and relatively safe chemicals. No good for cars, but brilliant for fixed storage. Ideal for factories, buildings with basements etc. I would happily have this at my home, in my garage for example.
@nelsoncasquinha
Жыл бұрын
Can we connect this to an inverter like the sun2000 from Huawei or any other one alike? This is very nice, especially by having twice the capacity on the same volume and being able to simulate different types of battery.
@royharkins7066
Жыл бұрын
Lol I keep seeing Crichton, he’s a lovely bloke , makes us larf loads……pushing the spear deeper into I. C. E. with every show 😂❤😂
@dmcarstensen
Жыл бұрын
I'd love to see these come out for residential battery storage systems. I'd happily use one of these as a method of storing my solar energy and off-peak grid times and discharging during peak grid times.
@ThomasBensler
Жыл бұрын
Whenever you talk about (rechargable) batteries, could you please mention coulomb efficiency and the estimated number of usefull cycles (until the battery is down to 80% of its capacity). That would be great! Just to be able to put it into relation to other battery technologies. Thanks a lot!
@dyemanoz
Жыл бұрын
In the case of Redflow battery (and I assume other types of flow batteries?) the Redflow battery retains 100% of its initial capacity throughout its life. (Correction - after actually reading the spec sheet it states capacity loss of .5% per year (5% over 10 year warranty life).
@sophrapsune
Жыл бұрын
One of the great features of these flow batteries is that, with maintenance, they retain virtually their entire capacity over their long lifetime. Far superior to Li-ion in that regard.
@Jehty_
Жыл бұрын
@@sophrapsune what kind of maintenance is needed to retain their entire capacity? Because with "maintenance" you can also keep Li-ion battery banks at 100%.... by replacing the cells.
@sophrapsune
Жыл бұрын
@@Jehty_ They have a self-maintaining discharge cycle that helps maintain electrode performance. The battery is offline for that period, so a system requires multiple battery units to stay online continuously. I believe there is also a deep maintenance cycle, which might include electrolyte top-up but I’m not sure what else. Finally, as the battery life is so long, some components such as pumps might fail and require replacement during the battery life. I’m not sure how rare failures are.
@AdamIverson
Жыл бұрын
I'm going to sound negative, but this tech is literally 144 years old. Why wasn't it commercialized back then and still not widespread mainstream today? Stuff like this, in theory, would be great for grid and home energy storage, but we can't even buy one for our home and only available for invest. What's holding it back anyway?
@Gent82
Жыл бұрын
Is it five years already since your last video on this? In the time since, I've wondered what happened to the battery tech they were testing and developing at the time. It never seemed to get mentioned again. So good to get an update and see how far they've developed it into products. Looks like it has massive potential for things bigger than vehicles.
@toby9999
Жыл бұрын
The mainstream media should cover more of this kind of stuff and less of the politics.
@roland9367
Жыл бұрын
@@toby9999 There are already enough headlines for non-technical people to read about the next big battery (or hydrogen?) breakthrough. There should be less of that, because most of it is not reaching the market or will take years. These redflow batteries are being made, so they are not fantasy, but they are still a huge amount time away from something useful, meaning that the price needs to come waaay down.
@MyKharli
Жыл бұрын
You mean the vanadium flow battery ?..Also Australian ! I`ve no idea what happened . I thought there was some reasonably large scale test devices as its quite old tech .
@simonpannett8810
Жыл бұрын
All types of Electricity storage will be needed to back up Renewable Sourced Electricity!
@pirojfmifhghek566
Жыл бұрын
And ideally ones that don't use materials that are difficult to source like cobalt, platinum, rhodium, etc. There was a big breakthrough in hydrogen electrolysis from seawater recently, but getting that energy back out with any useful efficiency requires fuel cells full of platinum. A ton of batteries require cobalt as a cathode, and that's all being mined with slave labor from the Congo. So far, this red flow battery shows incredible promise with the materials being used. Zinc, bromine, electrolyte, that's all fantastic. My biggest worry is the HDPE. The whole battery is basically a brick of plastic sheets. HDPE is normally a form of plastic that can be recycled, but I don't know if it can be recycled after doping it with carbon and soaked it in electrolytes for years. If it's not re-usable, then it's not really the kind of electricity storage that I would want to see scaled up too much. It'll be a nightmare for the landfills as these batteries get replaced by the hundreds of thousands, all around the world. We're already kinda seeing a taste of how bad the mess can be as we look at the decommissioning of wind turbine blades. At least there's research being done to come up with composite resins that can be broken down (and apparently turned into... gummy bears??) but for now we're being inundated with a tsunami of waste plastic from these things and not enough care is being put into their re-use. The only grid-scale battery concept I can think of currently that doesn't have material sustainability issues (outside of pumped hydro, which has its geographic limitations) is rechargeable molten salt batteries. The problem with those is that they're still knee-deep in R&D and research teams keep coming up with newer, better alloys to use as electrolytes. So it's hard for them to reach a stopping point where it's time to, ya know, just start making batteries. So this is not likely to become a thing for ten years or so. Still, boy howdy is it nice to see all the dozens of new battery ideas popping up all around the world. One of them is gonna be the winner.
@simonpannett8810
Жыл бұрын
@@pirojfmifhghek566 good points. There is compressed CO2 that uses a plasticized "bladder" to hold the CO2 that is compressed then released. I think it is 75% efficient which is not too shaby and does not need mined resources?? All have to be better than burning Gas!!
@gavbansal967
Жыл бұрын
Pure genius being able to mimic other battery types. Very clever.
@otternase3562
Жыл бұрын
I'm just curious how they make sure that no elemental bromine ever forms within the battery or in case of an accident or fire. Elemental bromine is HIGHLY toxic for humans and pretty much every form of life. He was talking about bromine a lot but I'm almost certain he meant bromine compounds.
@DoctorMangler
Жыл бұрын
I've seen these units. My comments relate only to the Redflow design. There are several problems with the design as it is now. First I did not see any method of automatically neutralizing spills of bromine when it's in it's charged state. It's extremely toxic just like chlorine, and due to the density and purity of the charged electrolyte it should have double spill containment and neutralizing agent packed between the double walls, something like sodium thiosulfate. The plumbing should be simplified and the overall design is more a conglomeration of off the shelf parts than a well thought out overall package. I'm not trying to totally crap on Redflow, but they've been around long enough to be using their own plastic moldings with steel cage exterior. If this unit was struck with a forklift or automobile there is a very real possibility to release large quantities of fuming bromine, in turn releasing huge quantities of bromine gas. If this happens on a windless day or enclosed space there could easily be a disaster. Another improvement would be adjustable tankage so that KWh could be added without having to add an entire unit unless current capacity is also needed. Flow batteries are really interesting and the cost per KWh promises a bright future, but there are some questions that need to be answered about safety and longevity.
@trevdawg94
Жыл бұрын
The way their spokesperson treated a bromine spill as nothing to be worried about doesn't give me a lot of hope that they will implement many if any safety features, it seems like they expect spills to happen but don't have a good cleanup/containment plan short of sealing off the area and letting it vaporize. If they expect their products to be a viable alternative to lithium battery storage they need to have a much more robust plan in place, as I'm willing to bet most people would rather have the risk of a battery fire than a toxic chemical spill near to where they live.
@DoctorMangler
Жыл бұрын
@@trevdawg94 I saw that too, but he's dead wrong about bromine. Depending on the charge state of the electrolyte it's either basically a mildly acidic solution that's pretty safe when discharged, or it's a deep red fluid that's charged and the zinc has been removed from the bromine and the bromine will fume. Bromine is one of the nastier things you can work with in a lab. It leaves nasty festering burns on skin, and it will do the same for your lungs as it boils off at room temp.
@AltMarc
Жыл бұрын
It's not a true `flow battery', as said in the video, when charged the battery contain 9Kg of zinc, which means that the capacity is limited by the size of the battery itself and external tanks won't change anything.
@DoctorMangler
Жыл бұрын
@@AltMarc Adding tanks will add kwh unless they are already working at capacity when the plates are completely zinc plated. The zinc is pulled from solution and plated onto the plates, the limiting factor is the distance between the plating and short circuit.
@sarcasmo57
Жыл бұрын
It's all happening in Brisbane. It's a a heck of a place. Needs more train lines though and less sprawl.
@philipcraig956
Жыл бұрын
I’ve been following Redflow for a few years and since they are only an hour’s drive down the road, it has been east to keep up with progress. So far, it appears they are steadily moving towards being competitive but they have had a host of technical and installation problems. Being a small player up against Tesla, LG etc. they can’t incentivise installers and don’t get much of the residential market. They are getting lots of the larger storage market such as backup for cell/mobile phone towers.
@simongross3122
Жыл бұрын
This makes a lot of sense. Use these batteries for grid scale and use lithium for cars.
@Nikoo033
Жыл бұрын
And let’s stop using lithium in countless stupid pointless objects (e.g. earphones, fitbits, Apple Watches, etc), or objects that by definition don’t need lithium batteries (e.g bicycles).
@em0_tion
Жыл бұрын
@@Nikoo033 What else can replace Li-Ions in those applications?
@Nikoo033
Жыл бұрын
@@em0_tion I was mainly implying that those things don’t really need, in truth, to be battery powered. But I think that since they don’t need much power, there is a chance that in time sodium batteries could be used for those applications in the future. 👍🏻
@ChrisP978
Жыл бұрын
@@Nikoo033 Weight is definitely an issue for e-bikes when they are being used as a car replacement. Would rather see a sub 1kWh bike than a 60kWh car. If they can get the technology lithium free then even better.
@dailyrider2975
Жыл бұрын
To optimize its performance, the battery must be completely discharged periodically as a self- maintenance requirement to maximize the surface area of the battery electrode surfaces. The battery automatically engages this ‘electrode scrubbing’ operation on a periodic basis if the battery has not been recently discharged to a zero state of charge during normal operations. The overall system design needs to accommodate this typical flow battery characteristic.
@moony2703
Жыл бұрын
Awesome to see an update!!! Really great to see how they are going, and to hear how the 4+ hour battery market is picking up and working on mass scale, as well as that they are helping solve other problems like left over salt from desalination, given how that is also a problematic pollution when too highly concentrated which people are trying to work on by splitting up plants to make them smaller and spread out, so nice to think that batteries that use salt could really help with that issue.
@DileepaRanawake
Жыл бұрын
So glad you came back Robert - this is such an exciting technology! More of this kind of tech would be awesome 🙂
@Andysfishing
Жыл бұрын
This is great progress and a step in the correct direction.
@chonpincher
Жыл бұрын
The crucial number, not mentioned here, is the round-trip efficiency: AC joules out divided by AC joules in.
@ehombane
Жыл бұрын
and the final price. sure, this will depend on many factors, but there should be some figures thrown around to let us make an idea.
@lucaburkhardt2592
Жыл бұрын
Alright, let us do the calculations. An average Atomic Power Plant produces about 1.2GW of power. (1200MW) This battery at (1:17) has 2MWh of capacity. With the formula of P=W/t (Power=Work per Time) Using 1 hour as the time and 1200MW as the Power we get 1200MWh of energy! If we divide the 1200MWh with the 2MWh of the afforementionned battery (1:17) we get 600! This means we would need 600 of these batteries to store the power which ONE Atomic Power Plant puts out in ONE hour. Frankly, saying this is the solution is simply idiotic and misleading.
@cipher_ali
Жыл бұрын
Been waiting for a follow up on Red Flow since I saw the first video, hope they come to the UK!
@grahameroberts8109
Жыл бұрын
No deliveries to UK?
@tlangdon12
Жыл бұрын
@@grahameroberts8109 There was a test system provided to one of the UK Universities (Swansea?), but no commercial deliveries.
@Silent_Flight
Жыл бұрын
They are/were only looking at commercial applications due to the ongoing maintenance of the pumps etc. Have a look at Gelion batteries as an AGM version of this system. They have started small scale production in Aus. Finding out anymore is akin to banging your head against a brick wall.
@eugeneputin1858
Жыл бұрын
2 LFP eg4 batteries contain 10kwh and weigh 100 pounds each for $3k. They must beat this price by more than half or I dont see this going anywhere. LFP will only get cheaper to the point where shipping weight outweighs the cost of producing the battery.
@anyalpine
Жыл бұрын
15°C (59°F) is a huge limitation unless I heard wrong and it’s -15°C (5°F). In constantly warm climates this obviously isn’t a problem, however much of the world gets much colder than that and it would waste quite a bit of energy to heat them that much.
@c64116
Жыл бұрын
So far, ive counted FIVE different youtube channels talking about FIVE different batteries, stating "that will solve grid scale shortage" i call bs.
@valdisvi
Жыл бұрын
Best way to store energy is Uranium pellet or Thorium salt. With few hundred of kilograms of such "battery" you can provide GW of power and TWh of energy for 1,5 years.
@cujoyyc4453
Жыл бұрын
So what I hear you saying is, without additional heating in a building, this might not be a long term storage solution for Canadian winters. Otherwise, interesting tech.
@Muppetkeeper
Жыл бұрын
There is often plenty of low grade waste heat in industrial areas, the trick is to use that. However would hydro storage be better in Canada?
@ehombane
Жыл бұрын
It sure can be, if you store it underground. Sure, some added price, but still is better to capture summers sun, or winters wind, then burning coal and oil.
@cujoyyc4453
Жыл бұрын
@@Muppetkeeper Not here on the prairies.
@schrodingerscat1863
Жыл бұрын
Anyone talking about grid scale storage as a serious proposal has absolutely no concept of the amount of power being used every day. To make wind power feasible you need somewhere in the region of 3 weeks worth of storage. The Current planned storage capacity can provide about 20 minutes, this is planned not currently operational. If we move to electric heating in any significant way that storage capacity provided something in the region of 5 minutes. When are people going to get real about this, what we are doing is a huge waste of time, money and resources.
@salipander6570
Жыл бұрын
There is a big limitation with this concept: the storage capacity is limited by the size of the plates instead of the amount of fluid. The zinc is collected on the plates when it is charged, whereas with other type of flow batteries no material precipitates on the plates and one could have a battery module fed with a limitless amount of fluid to have an energy storage capacity as big as needed.
@rogerphelps9939
Жыл бұрын
Here in the UK, in the winter when there is no sun and no wind we need storage that can supply at least 1,000 GWh per day for possibly several weeks. The storage requirement is gigantic and currently the technology is nowhere near being able to do it.
@Tsnafu
Жыл бұрын
We have baseload generating capacity going to waste at periods of low use (mostly overnight). The more nuclear (and wind power) we commission, the more spare overnight capacity we will have. Even 8 hours of reserve would save a lot of fossil fuel use
@gohumberto
Жыл бұрын
UK has more wind and bigger tides than anywhere in Europe. Harness tidal flow and you have a guaranteed regular energy source for the next billion years. When isn't it windy off the coast of the UK in winter? Those few days are precisely what batteries are for. Modern wind turbines don't actually need much wind speed.
@Jehty_
Жыл бұрын
@@gohumberto And on top of that there are already some power connections between the UK and European countries. These can and will be extended in the future. That will also lower the need for battery storage.
@gordienj
Жыл бұрын
This technology has matured beautifully. They have really covered the bases, making it compatible with other systems. I hope to see it available soon for home use.
@AltMarc
Жыл бұрын
It's not a true `flow battery', as said in the video, when charged the battery contain 9Kg of zinc, which means that the capacity is limited by the size of the battery itself and external tanks won't change anything.
@johnklein338
Жыл бұрын
Was excited until I heard that it needs to stay above +15 degrees. That's only 3 months of the year reliably in Saskatchewan and most of Canada.
@cormaccarroll
Жыл бұрын
Where does the zinc & bromine come from? Is that environmental destruction better than burning gas? And while we are at it where does the lubricants come from that they use on wind turbines? I'm afraid all this is green-washing so some companies can cash in all the while very little good is being done for the environment.
@KyrychenkoAnton
Жыл бұрын
Nothing about price, nothing about size
@zodiacfml
Жыл бұрын
they got to be quick. as lithium prices are going down, despite increasing demand, i'm sensing that sodium ion batteries are going to take over energy storage in a few years.
@camillotee7068
Жыл бұрын
Very interesting! Thank you! I was wondering how longterm stable the "hybernation mode" is, really? How much more stable is Zinc Bromine in comparison to all the Vanadium based RedoxFlow batteries? I know they had their discharge issues a couple years back.
@DonnyDonnMendoza
Жыл бұрын
Now that might be “old” technology but it’s still dope af! Will this be on show at fully charged?!? Fully charged is going to be awesome!!!
@54mgtf22
Жыл бұрын
This will confuse your UK audience. A South African in Brisbane. Love your work 👍
@CTCTraining1
Жыл бұрын
Robert, good interview but you really should have challenged him on building more manufacturing plants around the world to cope with supply. Partnering up to deliver for the world is what we need. 😀👍
@simonhenry7867
Жыл бұрын
By the time these reach the UK they are more expensive than Li-ion.
@lagunafishing
Жыл бұрын
Partnering up is what gives rise to Globalism. Keep it in house.
@NDFilmNZ
Жыл бұрын
@@lagunafishingnothing wrong with working together to meet a common goal
@mateobravo9212
Жыл бұрын
I think it goes without saying this will be a global effort, hopefully distinctly non-Chinese. Just wait for Redflow to establish where it's long term markets are...
@JerzyLasica
Жыл бұрын
15-50 degrees is quite narrow. 15 degrees isn't that cold.
@seethruhead7119
Жыл бұрын
Why not use pumped storage hydropower if you need super long lasting energy storage.
@Travlinmo
Жыл бұрын
Thank you for continuing to cover this. I am very glad to see the work in manufacturability that has gone on. The quick look at the main board looks better than 5 years ago.
@DingbatToast
Жыл бұрын
Get a presenter who understands something of the science. He looked like a guy trapped in an uncomfortable conversation with a nerd "right...right...right"
@fullychargedshow
Жыл бұрын
Thank you Dingbat, we will sack that old fool and get someone intelligent to present the shows. Poor old codger, well past his sell by date
@nukenet1
Жыл бұрын
Robert, seeing as Redflow actually talk to you, can you ask them why they never respond to residential requests for their batteries?
@tlangdon12
Жыл бұрын
It is disappointing. You would think that at the very least they would issue a statement saying that they are not going to do anything for the residential market for five years or whatever. They seem scared about coming off the fence.
@Hybridog
Жыл бұрын
@@tlangdon12 It's either they just are not ready to enter that market, or there is some technical/safety/cost reason they don't want it in the (often stupid) hands of consumers.
@tlangdon12
Жыл бұрын
@@Hybridog I think it’s a sensible decision on their part not to enter the residential market just yet. Consumers aren’t as knowledgable and are not always as reasonable as commercial customers. Although there are plenty of exceptions in both areas.
@TomTom-cm2oq
Жыл бұрын
I would also immediately buy this for my house.
@dyemanoz
Жыл бұрын
Reflow just make batteries. A residential installation also requires a batttery inverter, presumably solar panels and solar inverter if not already there etc etc. They do list integrators on their website. A few years ago (around 2015) Redflow did try to enter the domestic market. Their battery was by far the cheapest (per kWh of capacity) on the market, and came with a pretty good-looking enclosure. It even had a catchy name - the ZCell. Shortly afterwards Tesla announced their first-gen Powerwall which was price-competitive with the ZCell, and of course had incomparable brand recognition. The rest, as they say, is history.
@2nd3rd1st
Жыл бұрын
If you hadn't said anything, Bob, I'd think Redflow innovated on female hygiene products.
@fmo94jos8v3
Жыл бұрын
should ask him to pour the blue liquid over it so we can see how effective it is 🤣
@matthewknobel6954
Жыл бұрын
What if in new construction, that you put in a 1mWh flow battery or maybe even a 500kWh that feeds the house directly and let utilities then balance the load. If small scale does not work, about a distribution set up for new communities where 10-20 houses share a battery and the benefits. If each house has solar that can feed back into the battery many people could benefit.
@roland9367
Жыл бұрын
Regardless of the battery type you use, this is not very efficient use of batteries and material. Any battery system from 5 to 15kWh has the most impact in a house, it increases self consumption up to 70% Past that point, you might be able to go complete selfsufficient with 1MWh, but you will just be draining it once a year. So an astoundingly low battery cycle rate of once per year, which a lot of battery tech can do. This will never be economical, regardless of which battery tech is used. And by the way, in most houses a 500kWh battery would just delay the month a bit, in which the house is no longer able to support its own energy. This is talking from a perspective of a house in UK / Netherlands / Germany for example. In sunnier places (like Australia) you probably don't need a 500kWh at all.
@Jehty_
Жыл бұрын
@@roland9367 you said "increases self consumption up to 70%" Up from where? What would be the self consumption % without a battery?
@roland9367
Жыл бұрын
@@Jehty_ People with solar and no batteries typically only consume a third of the solar energy when it is generated. So self consumption of around 30% but it could be as low as 20% if you have a lot of solar and you are also not home a lot. So a small battery already makes a big change in that.
@mikemellor759
Жыл бұрын
Competing with Helen on highly technical features - very impressive Robert 👏 Interesting feature - thanks
@TassieEV
Жыл бұрын
This is awesome, I was just at Simon's farm in Tassie not long ago when he gave AEVA Tas a full tour and also a talk at our meeting. They are the amazing and is good for grid level storage solutions and safer than Li-ion.
@lookoutleo
Жыл бұрын
Looks like their using irn bru as the bromide :)
@igorberezin856
Жыл бұрын
Lol yeah waste the energy to keep it warm instead of storing it
@wlhgmk
Жыл бұрын
I would love to get two 10kWh redflow batteries for my house but they aren't available in New Zealand, here right beside Australia and I can't get an answer on how much they will cost if they are ever available. I also can't get hard information on the Gelion batteries that also use ZnBr technology but have a very similar architecture to lead acid batteries. Are these batteries less expensive per kWh stored than Li batteries. Size is of no concern for static applications. It is all about cost and longevity.
@nathanbanks2354
Жыл бұрын
This probably couldn't be used for container ships, unfortunately. It weighs 6 tonnes for 200kWh of power, whereas a 10,000 TEU ship requires 100 tonnes of fuel per day to travel at 18 knots. Each kg of fuel has 11kWh of power in it, but since large engines are ~40-50% efficient, this results in only 5kWh of output. That would be 2500 of these large 200kWh batteries for each day of operation, presuming the electrical system was 100% efficient. These batteries would weigh 15000 tonnes, which is over 10% of the weight of a container ship of this size. Since the ships need to travel more than one day at a time, this flow battery wouldn't work.
@budgetaudiophilelife-long5461
Жыл бұрын
THANKS ROBERT, FOR SHARING THIS WITH US 🤗💚💚💚
@capslock9031
Жыл бұрын
After your last report on Redflow I bought their stock. Sadly, it's going nowhere. What a shame, compared to other ventures in the green economy, that somehow they're not taking off. Lack of sense of urgency?! Or lack of potential buyer's interest?
@MatthewCallison
Жыл бұрын
I've watched the first Fully Charged show on Redflow a dozen times. I got panels and batteries in my house 2 years ago and wish I could have had these batteries instead of LiOn. I shared the video with the installer company and they loved it. If they ever start selling residential units in the US I will be very interested.
@ianhailey
Жыл бұрын
Same, why is it taking so long!
@billybollockhead5628
Жыл бұрын
Wait, I've heard of Bromide before, isn't that what they used to give men in prisons to get rid of their "urges"? (basically chemical castration?) Or am I confused?
@cpypcy
Жыл бұрын
This is real genius solution, using waste products and materials that are available to make some awesome battery.
@narvuntien
Жыл бұрын
With the guy you had on a few weeks ago, talking about how you only need 3 hours of storage to make the RE Grid work, this is great way to store hours of energy cheaply and easily.
@francisboyle1739
Жыл бұрын
I seem to remember him quoting a figure of three days but with a flow battery that hardly matters - you just need a bigger tank.
@ferkeap
Жыл бұрын
100%re with just a bit of storage is really silly.
@jjamespacbell
Жыл бұрын
What price and when? In comparison to Tesla MegaPack 4GWh for $2 Million, the current production rate at Lathrop 12 packs a day increase to >24 by end of the year. ROI about 2 to 3 years according to the Hornsdale project.
@marcelb.7224
Жыл бұрын
lasting 10 years is not bad. If you don´t discharge it one time every day even much more. And recycling is possible
@huwevans2653
Жыл бұрын
Fantastic Video, Amazing tech, well explained and presented........ and NO politics and un necessary bashing anyone. I hope this style of content will continue on Fully Charged. Well done.
@Hybridog
Жыл бұрын
As many commenters have wondered: why no residential use information? Are they too expensive? Is there some safety issue to overcome before putting them in the hands of frequentyly stupid retail customers? Do they not have the right charge/capacity specs for practical home use? What is the reason, because this seems like a potential winner in the growing home battery markets around the world.
@TomTom-cm2oq
Жыл бұрын
You read my mind.
@HarryPotar
Жыл бұрын
Stop using the wrong modals. "Flow Batteries: The 144 Year Old Tech That _May_ Solve Grid Scale Storage!"
@longline
Жыл бұрын
I'm really happy that you're covering these folks again
@terjeoseberg990
Жыл бұрын
100 kilowatts is 134 horsepower. That’s about what you’d need for a decent car. How big and heavy is such flow battery? If that size and weight plus the size and weight of a 134 hp electric motor is less than or only slightly larger than a 134 hp ICE engine, then this is doable. Those powerwall sized units were quite big.
@JRJetMan
Жыл бұрын
Sounds to be a very worthwhile battery development to fulfill static energy storage. Bottom line is cost and ability to produce them.
@danmur15
Жыл бұрын
how powerful is that heating pad and how efficient is it? here in the northeastern US we only get temps above 15c (~60f) about half of the year, and 4 months of the year we have temps below 5c (~40f). There are much colder areas of the US alone, plus Scandinavian countries and Canada.
@remco6816
Жыл бұрын
Saw that its not suited for indoor installation? But cant find out why.
@tlangdon12
Жыл бұрын
It is well suited to indoor installation. As a minimum, they need installation in some sort of shelter from the elements.
@simonlinser8286
Жыл бұрын
I wish i worked making batteries so cool
@a64738
Жыл бұрын
These batteries have ONE huge problem, the cost... A 10.000W hour battery cost 8.000$, in comparison my 5000W hour Litihum (LifePo4) battery bank in comparison only cost 1600$ (3200$ for same W hours). And that battery weigh about half of this + can deliver more Amperes.
@stevesloan6775
Жыл бұрын
Is the name "RedFlow" "tong in cheek"....Like this is what powers the "Red Dwarf"???? Like "Is art mimicking life, or life mimicking art?" Love from the land down under. : )
@st-ex8506
5 ай бұрын
Why should we need seasonal power storage? We actually don't! Solar is obviously a seasonal energy in nature (at other than tropical latitudes). Wind power also is. But have you looked at the month to month variation of the sum of wind + solar generated in Europe? Spoiler alert: there is hardly any. Obviously, within a week, within a month, there are peak and troughs in renewable production for which we need a few days of storage (2-3 for Spain, 5 for Germany, ca. 4 for Europe as a whole)... but NOT month to month, NOT seasonal!
@The_Unobtainium
Жыл бұрын
And it's time for Open Source DIY solutions based on flow batteries. Otherwise all these green energy talk is pure bullshit:)
@joen5000
Жыл бұрын
I think, you should have made this video simpler. What interests most people are the following factors: 1. What Capacity vs size/weight? 2. Price per kW/h? 3. How many charging cycles can it have without replacement or renewal? 4. Size and weight? 5. How fast it charges / outputs electricity? Only when having this information, one can decide how relevant the battery is, as it is the basis for comparison. Unfortunately, all these factors are missing in your video.
@hi-tech-guy-1823
Жыл бұрын
I would put the electrolyte under Gravity Pressure (Raised weight Hydraulic Accumulator Towers or Shaft Wells) same 1883 tech the London Hydraulic Power Company used) You Only need power to pump it in And to Charge it Psi can alter the viscosity and Working temp range
@MarcDunivan
Жыл бұрын
Why are ESS Inc's sales so terrible then? ( The stock [GWH] has cratered to almost penny stock status. Will probably need to delist from the NYSE, if a reverse-split isn't done. ) Who in Southern California is buying flow batteries? What solar PV farms are buying these?
@neuanderwelt
Жыл бұрын
I don't think these batteries will do the trick. Making hydrogen from water via electrolysis will. There is a solution available with 95% energy efficiency from Wollongong-based company Hysata.
@litestuffllc7249
Жыл бұрын
You have been doing these sorts of reports w a million followers; its time to have some check lists so you can identify actual solutions. A quick google of this type of battery says they have a very poor cycle life. So Mr Carlson may want to know not just the cost per kWh but the cost over time, & weight. Now Maybe Redflow has addressed this to some degree - but if you don't ask; you don't find out. Cost per kWh of storage, number of useful cycles, Weight per kWh, fire danger, toughness/fragility, cost of installation per kWh, toxicity, sustainability of constituent mining, maintainence costs per kwh. So comparing to LIPO or others you can evaluate. If Zinc Bromine flow is twice as heavy (effecting delivery costs) half the life, then it may need to be priced at 1/3rd that of LiPo to be cost effective; and then one may want to take sustainability into account such as 1 ton of Lithium carbonate requires 500,000 gallons of water to produce etc.
@markreed9853
Жыл бұрын
Found a price of $12,600 AUD for a 10Kwh battery not including inverter or installation.
@stevesloan6775
Жыл бұрын
Hecking Smeg....Its twenty twenty three, How is there not a Face-mapped Kryton Ai setting to select from?...!!!!!
@harrickvharrick3957
Жыл бұрын
I wonder how durable these batteries are in terms of their total expected life span. I guess there must be some data available about that, given that they were already experimented with 140 years ago. I ALSO wonder why someone would choose this design over an Edison battery, given that their (low) energy density is practically identical but the Iron-Nickel type is less complicated and has an operational temperature range of -40°C ~ +46°C (instead of the +15°C ~ +50°C that are mentioned in the video for the flow battery) and thus need no heating, which of course comes down to massive inefficiency in climates where that would be necessary, especially when they are used for storage over longer periods; the Edison only needs shielding from too much direct sunlight.
@frosthoe
Жыл бұрын
I can buy lead acid batteries at Farm and Fleet and make a powerpack for far less. And they have a 7 year warranty on the batteries too. Yes it'll be a heavy beast, but just sayin $$$. Pumped storage/ Or kinetic mass(hoisted weights) is a FAR better idea. More cost efficient and less maintenance cost over lifetime. Exponentially less cost on basic kinetic systems. Sometimes less is far more. K.I.S.S. look it up.
@simonlinser8286
Жыл бұрын
You can make these batteries yourself too for off grid, you just would have to keep it in its own outbuilding with ventilation and hopefully filtration because if over charged it will off gas very small amounts of bromine gas.
@MrAdopado
Жыл бұрын
mmm ... nice ...
@ChrisP978
Жыл бұрын
Elemental bromine is quite toxic, will cause chemical burns and severe lung irritation at as little as 3ppm. If there was a chance of venting it would be essential that it vents outdoors where it could quickly dissipate.
@seaplaneguy1
Жыл бұрын
Making Fuel is 20 times cheaper than a 100% RE grid. E-fuels in new engine type NET tech at 75% is the solutions. 3 cents/kwh for fuel.
@geoffcrompton5415
Жыл бұрын
Robert Llewyn and Simon Hackett in the same video? Curious, for some reason I woke up this morning thinking they were dopplegangers. (I think that was Simon, at about the 0:20 second mark, opening the door for Robert, I'm guessing that was a flash back to the video from 5 years ago.).
@whoguy4231
Жыл бұрын
When flow batteries were announced, they said they would be cheaper ... LOL ... Lithium based batteries are almost half the price and 98% efficient with no moving parts.
@zotter2542
Жыл бұрын
The LIVA battery is made by advanced metallurgical group. Way bigger and more potential because of the EU single market. Plus they mine their own lithium and have their own vanadium source. At the end of this year they will open the first lithium hydroxide factory in Europe.
@sulijoo
Жыл бұрын
I don't doubt battery tech will vastly improve, but there have already been attacks on the US power grid by unknown gunman. How secure really is this electric future? Are we going to see fields and fields of batteries under armed guard and watch towers? That would be stupid. Maybe they'd be better off underground? I'm just not convinced, especially when compared to how relatively secure nuclear power is.
@naehh73
Жыл бұрын
@09:20 "So you could augment your 'bat-bacidry battery bat-battery bank'" and then the music halts 🤣 Editors: Thank you!! ps: I know this isn't what he was trying to say.
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