Just make a 2nd Treaty of Versailles, nothing modernizes the German Army faster than a Treaty of Versailles.
@lavrentivs9891
3 жыл бұрын
There already is a second Treaty of Versailles, it was signed in 1919. The first treaty of Versailles was signed in 1871.
@shorewall
3 жыл бұрын
@@lavrentivs9891 third time's the charm. :D
@shanekhiu9884
3 жыл бұрын
We know what happens everytime one is made
@yusufyigit5345
3 жыл бұрын
Underrated comment
@Romin.777
3 жыл бұрын
@@lavrentivs9891 The same year democracy died when my country was disarmed *to protect the government"
@whatsgoingon71
3 жыл бұрын
Modern German politicians have so far only shown 2 ways of dealing with defence topics. one is, to stay away from them as far as they can. The other one is getting involved, but only to line their pockets.
@Olyvia..
3 жыл бұрын
@Pro Tengu yes germany is different. Our Minister of Defense is a) female and b) now president of the European Commission
@kmit9191
3 жыл бұрын
@@Olyvia.. and 3) has cost us 10 billion in botched deals as of now
@mausklick1635
3 жыл бұрын
Yeah, Afghanistan was so profitable for Germany... what?
@Bobylein1337
3 жыл бұрын
"Lining the pockets of their children" fify
@elseggs6504
3 жыл бұрын
@@mausklick1635 I think they mean shit like deals with Heckler Koch and whatever manufacturers there are
@Philistine47
3 жыл бұрын
When this happens by accident, the term I've heard for it is "paralysis by analysis" - a person or organization spends so much time reviewing options that they lose out on the chance to actually choose one before it becomes irrelevant. But it sounds like the SPD have adopted _"de facto_ cancellation via never-ending debate" as a _deliberate_ strategy. Pun fully intended.
@speaklifegardenhomesteadpe8783
3 жыл бұрын
I struggle with this in my life, your comment was actually helpful, thank you I will consider it, analyze it and research more then debate this🤣.... Just kidding, but it really did help me! 😃👍
@vsiegel
3 жыл бұрын
That is basically the same as a filibuster, right?
@thomasborgsmidt9801
3 жыл бұрын
Naturally!
@fiddledotgoth
3 жыл бұрын
@@vsiegel It's more efficient... ;-)
@MyFabian94
3 жыл бұрын
I think, that if we are going to have never ending Wars in Africa and the Middle East, the least we can do is make them Climate Friendly. Wars produce an extraordinary amount of CO2, which through it's Climate Potential kills and drives more People from their Homes in effected Areas than the actual Wars do. So, as a Green I support Drones.
@warhead_beast7661
3 жыл бұрын
Well the whole State of the Bundeswehr is a "very German" Problem 😅
@M167A1
3 жыл бұрын
Best comment
@MilitaryAviationHistory
3 жыл бұрын
Not as bad as sometimes said, but a long way from the ideal
@cyberiankorninger1025
3 жыл бұрын
And if you look behind the veil of some companies, institutions and government agencies you realize that half the country has the same poor state as the Bundeswehr. Delays, cowardice in leadership, gigantic waste as if all problems could be solved with money, endless bickering, stasis and inaction while upholding an orderly facade as if everything is going as planned.
@safetyinstructor
3 жыл бұрын
@@MilitaryAviationHistory that's true Bis... Some people try to make support their point by stretching reality.
It was very nice of Dr. Franke to share her opinions and the background of the debate. As an American living in Germany, it has always fascinated me how different our two countries opinions on defense are at times.
@RonJohn63
3 жыл бұрын
Germany gets to have a different opinion on defense because the Americans protect them.
@cnlbenmc
3 жыл бұрын
And the Germans have been on the losing end of not one but Two World Wars.
@noobster4779
3 жыл бұрын
@@RonJohn63 We get to have a different opinion because the last time we went all out on military with 0 regard for human rights like the united states currently it wasnt that popular with everybody else in the world. Also defense us against who? All our neighbours are our friends and russia will hardly invade. That is just fearmongerring. Terrorism? Stop creating new reasons for terrorists to go to europe to bomb stuff and the problem will get smaller. But sure the US propably defends us agaisnt the mighty Luxembourg Empire that is threatening us.
@shawnadams1965
3 жыл бұрын
@@noobster4779 Well I was in the US Army stationed in Germany during the 80s. So yeah I and others like me kinda did defend Germany. But that was a whole different time and situation.
@HingerlAlois
3 жыл бұрын
@@shawnadams1965 Obviously during the Cold War the West German military itself was large and even had ballistic missiles that would‘ve been armed with nuclear weapons in the case of war. Of course the NATO planning for the case of a war was for a while also to detonate a whole bunch of nuclear mines in (West) Germany to stop the Soviets. In the end West Germany would have been devastated not only by the enemy, but also by its allies in the case of a war.
@lexx348
3 жыл бұрын
This is next level for this channel, very deep dive on the today’s acute problem with excellent expertise
@grizwoldphantasia5005
2 жыл бұрын
Yes, and Dr Franke has been here in other videos. She seems remarkably devoid of political subterfuge. Doesn't ramble and meander and dodge questions with meaningless verbiage. I look forward to these.
3 жыл бұрын
As a German, a former SPD Voter and a current Member of the policy Team of the Party Volt in Germany, this topic realy gets me going. With the decision not to suppoprt the procurement of armed drones for the Troops in Mali whilst at the same time sending those troops there, the SPD really showed what kind of a party they are today. Which is sad for a party with such a grand history. In my view and as in our proposal for the Volt Germany program for the upcoming German parlament elections, those Drones should be viewd as any other military plane and they should be procured immediatly. Our soliders deserve to the tools they need as well as the protection and flexibility these systems provide.
@derhesligebonsaibaum
3 жыл бұрын
Ui, Volt. Based party
@lhw1221
3 жыл бұрын
i mean i am not that old but i folowt ouer goverment from my 8 untill 22 life year and i never wold vote the big partys. Ther is just so mutch wrong it is a shit show. it so not mater if you are konservativ or prgressiv all of them are a shit show right now .
@rext87able
3 жыл бұрын
@@lhw1221 i feel it weird listening to non-military personnel speaking about the use of drones in a modern scenario, where I think it rather should be handled by military personnel who are Luftwaffe who would be primary sources and subject matter experts, not civilians or politicians.
@johnq1753
3 жыл бұрын
our soldiers shouldnt be in mali or anywhere else in the world, germany should leave nato and only use its army when attacked
@TC-xt8ts
3 жыл бұрын
Volt ist Cringe
@pandoranbias1622
3 жыл бұрын
Germany: *debating weaponized drones* America: "You guys got to decide?"
@Treblaine
3 жыл бұрын
The problem is Germany refuses to decide, they hold endless debates and despite promising to decide after the debates they say "nah, we need more debates".
@jakeb6703
3 жыл бұрын
it was very interesting to hear about this from an outside perspective
@rundoetx
3 жыл бұрын
@@Treblaine If you wait to decide till you need em, its too damn late. Thats like, your house gets broken into and you decide you better go buy some bullets for that gun you purchased 9 years ago.
@Treblaine
3 жыл бұрын
@@rundoetx Yeah you can't wait to buy fire insurance when you smell smoke.
@rundoetx
3 жыл бұрын
@@Treblaine a better analogy, thanks
@stephank9172
3 жыл бұрын
I wouldnt mind more videos in issues like that, very interesting
@MilitaryAviationHistory
3 жыл бұрын
Good to know :)
@randomname1251
3 жыл бұрын
Agreed
@typxxilps
3 жыл бұрын
pointless unless the pov change cause now we sit in a pony war or debatte. Elections will come ... and CDU and SPD will suck while GREEN will rose and the result will be simple: For sure no weaponiized drones ... and who wants to send german soldiers again into the afghanistan or other deserts? Makes no sense after 2 decades of american lead wars in the middle east with no progress ... Let us wait for the elections and SPD will not join another coalition with CDU and CDU will not go a AFD or right wing coalition. And green party will reject any weaponized drones and guess what will be the first victim of negotiations between CDU and green? drones for sure... Time for real word politics as Bismarck had said.
@jeffbenton6183
2 жыл бұрын
@@MilitaryAviationHistory I'm not sure if you're going to see this, but I'd like your take on this. If part of the reason why there is a debate is that they're worried that they'd be used in targeted assassinations, why not just pass a law (or a constitutional amendment) that makes targeted assassinations by drone illegal? Then they could authorize the arming of drones, while being able to trust that they will only be used for such purposes as close air support and the like.
@fidelismiles7439
3 жыл бұрын
Europeans: oh shit we gotta weaponize drones, what are we going to do?! Me, an Argentinian: Wait you guys have drones?
@sujeto16a
3 жыл бұрын
Me,an Uruguayan: Do you have a real airforce?
@hermanthegerman8587
3 жыл бұрын
Me, a Slovenian: Jet aircraft? what is that
@theluftwaffle1
3 жыл бұрын
Some North Korean: Air.. Plane? What is that? Can I eat it?
@hermanthegerman8587
3 жыл бұрын
@@theluftwaffle1 they got Mig 29's
@johnc2438
3 жыл бұрын
Me, a member of the U.S. Air Force: "Did you just feel that whoosh? Yeah, our drones are all stealthy now."
@penultimateh766
3 жыл бұрын
Wow, Bismark landing the A-list interviews here.
@Kuzitube
3 жыл бұрын
10:26 : “Germany doesn’t really have a tradition for talking about defense topics, for various reasons...” lmao I wonder what those “various reasons” are
@JosipRadnik1
3 жыл бұрын
Doesn't "Wehrmacht" litteraly translate to "Defense force"? I am certain there is no connection here ;-)
@spanke2999
3 жыл бұрын
@@JosipRadnik1 ... 'wehr' as the core noun here can be translated today with defense. this is correct. but historically it can be translated as weapon as well. so you can debate if the meaning here was armed forces...or defense forces. also I wanted to point out that I'm not aware of any country who is naming the army "neighbor attack formation" Have fun
@AutismIsUnstoppable
3 жыл бұрын
Don't mention the war!
@Gehwagenschieber
3 жыл бұрын
There is a surprisingly consistent "tradition" of anti-militarism and disregard for security matters in parts of the german popular opinion since the destructive experience of the 30-year war
@TrangleC
3 жыл бұрын
Well, other countries don't let their past crimes keep them from being pro military.
@slowerthinker
3 жыл бұрын
I'm sure I remember Jim Hacker and Sir Humphrey Appleby spending an entire episode of _Yes Minister_ discussing "delays to the Eurodrone."
@tyberfen5009
3 жыл бұрын
God, I really need to rewatch that documentary. It's been a while already
@teutonicmeme868
3 жыл бұрын
thought I was on wrong channel love to see yes minister references
@unclejoeoakland
3 жыл бұрын
I thought it was the eurosausage but I am absolutely amenable to correction :) anything on YM or YPM pass it on!
@Stinger913
3 жыл бұрын
It was the Eurosauaage vs British sausage. They said British sausage had too much fat and couldn’t be called a sausage anymore. Yes Minister is beautiful
@matteotivan3414
3 жыл бұрын
Italy has bought 6 MQ-1s and 6 MQ-9s and they have not been weaponized. The MQ-9 Reaper has been renamed "Predator B", I have no idea why, but I suspect Reaper is not enough family friendly for the ItAF
@MilitaryAviationHistory
3 жыл бұрын
Oh interesting,what is Italy currently using them for? The NATO AGS base is in Sigonella if I remember correctly
@matteotivan3414
3 жыл бұрын
@@MilitaryAviationHistory don't take my word for truth, but I think they are 'simply' reconnaissance drones. I heard they are also used to search for immigrants' ships. They have been deployed abroad years ago, but I don't know their current status. They are part of 32nd Stormo (they also operate JSF). My first thought was that they were based in Amendola, just like the jsf, but I later found out the MQ-1s are based in Sigonella. Still have to find out where the 9s are based. Italian military websites are basically useless, the information they provide is not enough. Sorry if I haven't been exhaustive. Yes, NATO RQ-4 assets are based in Sigonella, Sicily, along with USN P-8 Poseidons and ItAF's P-72 maritime reconnaissance planes.
@matteotivan3414
3 жыл бұрын
@@MilitaryAviationHistory according to the ItAF's website: www.aeronautica.difesa.it/mezzi/mlinea/Pagine/MQ9APredatorB.aspx "The MQ-9 features excellent capabilities for conducting ISTAR mission (Intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance), as well as in Search and Rescue and Patrolling in terrestrial and marittime environment. It is possible, for example, to detect the presence of threats such as improvised explosive devices that represent the most common and hazardous danger in most of today's theaters. They can also complete missions in adverse environments, in presence of nuclear, biological, chemical or radiological contamination, or acquire data and information related to small-sized and large-sized objectives that can possibly be the focus of an operation." The website is in Italian and I may have changed some phrasal structures to adapt to my basic English knowledge. I'll have a deeper look into that tomorrow
@lavrentivs9891
3 жыл бұрын
@@matteotivan3414 Keeping an eye on Libya? ^^
@MilitaryAviationHistory
3 жыл бұрын
Yup, AGS is just surveillance.
@daszieher
3 жыл бұрын
"There really are only so many points one can make..." Dr Franke hit the nail on the head. She is an expert for a good reason. Kudos for getting her to speak on your channel!
@fiddledotgoth
3 жыл бұрын
I think she is avoiding recognising the intentional delaying tactics of the SPD in order to put pressure on a foreign policy that is increasingly unpalatable for German people...
@MyFabian94
3 жыл бұрын
I think, that if we are going to have never ending Wars in Africa and the Middle East, the least we can do is make them Climate Friendly. Wars produce an extraordinary amount of CO2, which through it's Climate Potential kills and drives more People from their Homes in effected Areas than the actual Wars do. So, as a Green I support Drones.
@daszieher
3 жыл бұрын
@@MyFabian94 wars serve two purposes. One is the strong and visible military presence on the ground of the invaded country. For this to be effective, the troops need to be victorious. For them to be perceived as victorious, the battle need to be harsh and decisive. Most importantly, the need to be experienced by the general public. This obviously cannot be done in an environmentally or socially responsible way. The other is the crippling of enemy forces to thwart an attack or generally deter a foe. This is easily done via drones. Ideally with "Lasers".
@MyFabian94
3 жыл бұрын
@@daszieher Well, get the Troops Cycling then. Let the Bots do the Work and Troops win hearts and minds by being nicely dutch or something.
@daszieher
3 жыл бұрын
@@MyFabian94 interesting approach 😄
@2LucasKane3
3 жыл бұрын
In the middle of a mission: "Your free trial of drone ended"
@thorodinson5034
3 жыл бұрын
Just handle it like your WinRAR trial license XD
@jake4194
3 жыл бұрын
🤣
@grimgorkeisenpelz9392
3 жыл бұрын
This was really great. As a fellow German, I was not aware of the magnitude and how deep this discussion goes. Surprising but really great content. I liked it a lot.
@MilitaryAviationHistory
3 жыл бұрын
Awesome!
@gibariangaborski8334
3 жыл бұрын
Excellent pfp
@grimgorkeisenpelz9392
3 жыл бұрын
@@MilitaryAviationHistory After digging a bit into it, I think the SPD stalls purposefully to not anger one of their wings. If they would decide, one wing or the other would be mad. And as they are declining in popularity, they do not want to anger anyone. Which is exactly the opposite they should do, in my opinion. Like this, they look weak. If they would decide one way or the other, at least the people that agree might vote for them. Alas. it is what it is and I agree. We need more discussions on such topics in Germany and we need to decide, what kind of armed forces we want to have. As was said, being critical about weapons procurement is right. Stalling it for no real reason is not. Again, this shows, how well founded this interview and your guest have been. She fits perfectly to discuss this topic. I would love to see more interviews with experts like this one.
@fiddledotgoth
3 жыл бұрын
I was not even aware of the European Council on Foreign Relations: (Wikipedia) "About half of ECFR's funding comes from foundations, one third from governments and the rest from corporations and individuals. Open Society Foundations is the main donor to ECFR, funding with its grants one third (£2,345,566 in 2017) of ECFR's total income..."
@grimgorkeisenpelz9392
3 жыл бұрын
@@fiddledotgoth Yeah, true. I was not aware of this too. Thanks for highlighting.
@Tigrisshark
3 жыл бұрын
Excellent interview on the topic, making the current affairs in german politics transparent and serving as a good introduction to the topic. You can feel how Dr. Franke just wants to facepalm the whole time. Welcome to the german paradox- Germans want to be safe but are unwilling to pay/do anything for it. It's Beamtenmikado on a whole new level.
@MilitaryAviationHistory
3 жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it. Very happy to hear this. Beamtenmikado! I need to remember that one.
@daszieher
3 жыл бұрын
People with more technical background and following defense discussions with anglo-saxon background facepalm all the time when confronted with defense discussions in Germany. The incompetence and the very politicised (ill-informed) arguments brought forward especially by the social democrats was very laughable. It was just a crazy ivan designed to destabilise a much needed procurement effort with practical relevance for the forces exposed in high intensity scenarios. I remember predicting the EuroHawk debacle somewhere in the early 2000's on the basis of its insufficient certification for sharing civil airspace. While I was in no function to be taken seriously, I did have the opportunity to speak to some of the people responsible. They shrugged it off in a very arrogant way. The entire issue is just being patched with commissioning of Global Hawk. "There really are only so many points one can make..." Dr Franke hit the nail on the head. She is an expert for a good reason. Kudos for getting her to speak on your channel!
@noobster4779
3 жыл бұрын
@@daszieher On the other hand germans generally face palm every time a new war crime gets publicized where civilians got slaughetered as "collateral damage" by the US forces with their drones. We had our fair share of war crimes and are a bit more touchy on the subject do to the alst time we didnt have these discussions and were just "let the military make the right decisions". That resulted in a blood bath all over europe. The US drone programm is generally seen here as a general war crime. And the last armenian azerbaidschan war basically provided enough points how drones can be used questionably. We simply dont trust our own military that they will "only stick to survailance or regulated us of it". Most people here believe that german law would be ignored if the US army ordered german drones to kill somebody. We simply dont want any part in US war crimes and sadly drones will be used to 80% in wars we were dragged into by the us.
@moonbear2130
3 жыл бұрын
@@noobster4779 how were drones used questionably in the Armenia Azerbaijan war?
@daszieher
3 жыл бұрын
@@noobster4779 you, sir, are with all due respect, a prime example for what I was talking about. Your arguments are hallmark of someone not being part of defense procurement and strategic or operational decision making processes. Targeted assassinations are performed by the CIA in a very closed, limited environment with dedicated equipment. While it is true, that some of the command and control is routes via German territory, German assets are not involved. At least there is no indication for that being the case. While one should argue the illegality of these measures, they are not applicable to the German discussion. From a German perspective, the discussion on armed drones revolves purely around their military use in the theatre alongside personnel on the ground. This is easily proven, as the armed forces stand under the control of parliament, ensuring that neither military leadership alone or even the governing political forces can take action without previously discussing the matter in parliament. This very necessary discussion is, however, watered down by useless allegations, primarily designed to stall the procurement, not to have an educated discussion leading to a sensible, transparent decision in parliament. Alluding to WWII and the notion that the military pushes for war is frankly a display of lack of information: in WWII it was the National Socialist Workers Part which pushed for war to fortify its position in power. Crimes such as the Holocaust were committed by the civilian organisation of the government. If you want to stand a chance in this field, you should educate yourself appropriately, lest you make a fool of yourself with simplistic arguments. Defense is a serious field!
@virginiahansen320
3 жыл бұрын
A lot of the opposition kind of sounds like an emotional teenage girl's reaction. -"Weaponized drones are used for targeting killings! We can't have those!" +"Yeah, but they're also used for a bunch of other stuff. Guns are used in genocides, should the Bundeswehr not have guns?" -"Guns are used in genocides?! Of course they shouldn't have guns!!!! Why do we even NEED a Bundeswehr!?"
@jakeb6703
3 жыл бұрын
the lack of accountability, whether it makes sense or not is very present in drone strikes, worrying about mission creep in the middle east and tools that make it more likely is a very important discussion to have
@virginiahansen320
3 жыл бұрын
@@jakeb6703 Yeah, but those are organizational issues, not inherent to drone technology itself. Not having the same level of oversight over drone strikes as you do manned strikes is a choice, not an inevitability. There're just as many humans involved in a drone strike as a manned strike, the only difference is where the pilot is sitting.
@noobster4779
3 жыл бұрын
It is basically, we have no problem with the good stuff. We simply dont trust our military or allies to stick to the rules. We see how the us military covers up war crimes to their own population all the times (the hole Assange/Snowden thing is the best example). We basically fear our own military would do the same. Historically speaking we trusted our military before to do the right thing. WW2 and the war crimes commited in it were a very hard awakening for most. Most people suspected the commitment of german war crimes but never its scale. Since then the military is distrusted heavily.
@chuckschillingvideos
3 жыл бұрын
@@noobster4779 No, you just want to have your cake and eat it too. You want the protection belonging in NATO provides but don't want to deal with the icky reality that being the member of a mutual defense alliance requires its members to arm themselves and participate in agreed upon obligations. What folks like you and your ilk are is a bunch of whiny crybabies.
@virginiahansen320
3 жыл бұрын
@@noobster4779 I can certainly understand the suspicion of power and authority, although in the case of Germany the civilian government was actually guilty of much worse than the Wehrmacht itself, but in this case there's really functionally no difference from an inherent accountability standpoint between drones and manned aircraft. You just aren't risking the pilot and get more loiter time.
@nils7888
3 жыл бұрын
First I wanna thank you two for the very informative video! Dr. Franke was a great guest! As a German studying law I think two points play the biggest role in the negative response to armed drones in Germany: 1: As Dr. Franke mentioned, the use of drones by the US is seen as a violation of human rights by many Germans and the control of those drones through bases in Germany is highly controversial. There are a lot of legal issues and it paints a very negative picture of armed drones. 2: The Bundeswehr through Art. 87a, 24 and 26 of the Grundgesetz is bound by the constitution when it comes to armed combat. The use of the Bundeswehr in combat missions is (by ruling of the BVerfG) only allowed to defend German territory and in systems of collective security (NATO or UN mandates). Considering that any defense of German territory seems highly unlikely (and would always trigger the NATO collective defense clause) the Bundeswehr will ALWAYS fight in combination with other NATO or UN troops and never on its own. And as Germans are uneasy with armed drones (point 1) they would rather leave that part to their allies. That might change though, if at some point there might be a European army (if that is one single standing army or just all the national armies in close coordination is another question). This would rid the EU of their dependency from the US and allow for more diplomatic freedom. And it might make the participation in the defense of the EU such a pressing issue that Germany might be more at ease with armed drones. Just a thought...
@MilitaryAviationHistory
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks Nils for the comment and contribution :) Happy to hear you enjoyed it. Dr. Franke was a fantastic guest.
@gotanon8958
3 жыл бұрын
Apperently people forgot OEF-Afghanistan or the fact that 9/11 triggered(for the first time since its founding) the mutual collective defense of a member nation.
@nils7888
3 жыл бұрын
@@gotanon8958 It is another topic but to view 9/11 as an attack of Afghanistan on the US was one of the most ridiculous decisions of all time.
@idontwanttoputmyname403
3 жыл бұрын
“No german troops would go out of the army camps without drones.” Me:*Looks at Tom Clancy’s: EndWar, where one of the specialties of the EU was drones.* Huh. Whadya know?
@ordewingate5219
3 жыл бұрын
I don't .. I haven't read that book. That line from there, doesn't make sense in realty. Because no European technology is found on drones.
@grabtharshammer3410
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks Chris. The RAAF (Royal Australian Airforce) is just starting flight tests on "Loyal Wingman". If these go well, they are supposed to be force multipliers and escorts (I believe) for maned RAAF aircraft. Thanks again for the interesting content mate.
@jeebus6263
3 жыл бұрын
The CCP is Germany's Loyal Wingman :p
@ByronLina
3 жыл бұрын
Great interview - I think Dr Frankie makes good points. It’s good to have a debate, but you do need to come to a resolution!
@hothoploink1509
3 жыл бұрын
This debate has been pissing me off since 2012 (when I was still in the Bundeswehr). Never understood the whole "morality" problem - what difference does it make if the pilot is inside the plane or somewhere else? If he's back in germany or even in a basecamp in Afghanistan, and doesn't know if he should bomb a target, ask your superior, he's probably standing right next to you anyway. A few months ago they were talking about the next generation of drones possibly using their weapons autonomously, and were using this as an excuse to again continue this ridiculous debate. Then don't get drones that can autonomously use weapons, what the hell kind of argument is that? That's like saying we need to get rid of tanks, because the next generation might be autonomous. It all boils down to the americans using them for "assassinations", but all we'd have to do is *NOT USE THEM THAT WAY* Goddamn politicians! Should have left the video for tomorrow, now I'm going to go to bed pissed off again :D
@lavrentivs9891
3 жыл бұрын
Then make sure that there are laws against using them like that, otherwise someone will sooner or later.
@D3R3bel
3 жыл бұрын
Its even funnier because even without drones modern aircraft are perfectly capable of performing "assassinations", But what happens when a pilot is the one in the plane? Under stress, behind enemy lines, and superiors do not have direct access to what the pilot is seeing. Civilian casualties would be way higher and you bet that there will be alot more wrongful assassinations
@lavrentivs9891
3 жыл бұрын
@@D3R3bel There are laws against that though
@noobster4779
3 жыл бұрын
Well ethically speaking a major problem with drones is that they are basically psychological torture. Using drones in an area will make the general population afraid of the skies and afraid of beeing killed as "unfurtunate collateral", as happened already several times. Who can garante that the German military will not give in to us pressure to us them that way when push comes to shove. We already allowed the us to mass survaillance our entire county and are sending german citizens to us torture prisons if requested by the us. I mean the hole snowden or assage man hunts are the perfect example of it. People uncovering war crimes are hunted down by the us and germany is eather not doing anything under us pressure or actively helping them . Since our military fucked up really hard in war crimes during WW2 when they had free reign we genrally dont trust them. And the fact that the Bundeswehr has a bad reputation of beeing infiltrated by right wing extremists (which is exagerated i admit) this trust will hardly be rebuild anytime soon. If you want to blame somebody blame the US military and the german military commanders that assisted them in certain "actions" concerning human rights violations.
@lavrentivs9891
3 жыл бұрын
@01000110 ! A drone isn't a superior weapon though. They mostly fill a surveillance purpose in low intensity conflicts, but they're not superior to ground attack aircraft in CAS roles and are much more vulnerable.
@paulsakz1532
3 жыл бұрын
Wow ok Chris i get you search for first hand accounts and sources but holy smokes buddy lol, this is top shelf! I'm sure we all appreciate the immense amount of time and determination you put into your channel and I just want to congratulate you on your perseverance and excellent content. Bismarck, Chris, well done!
@ericnorman5237
3 жыл бұрын
This is a very intriguing debate and thank you for bringing this to light. It is often fascinating how different countries approach delicate military matters.
@leonfa259
3 жыл бұрын
The Bundeswehr is still strongly in the spirit of a defensive force. It engages in more and more offensive wars (Afghanistan, Mali) without a clear vote and against the will of a large part (if not the majority) of our population. Because armed drones would enable it to cheaply engage in even more offensive interventions and the American lead Nato would be able to bully our government in joining them, we have a strong distrust that the drones will only be used as democratically agreed. Also our thread environment has changed, Russia is in a step decline, our regional competitors (GB, F, Poland and Turkey) are officially our allies and smaller than us. The only real threats are the US (to whom we have strong ties) and China which is on the other side of the world without it the having the ability to lead long-distance wars.
@HistoryGameV
3 жыл бұрын
@@leonfa259 Honestly for me, a regular critic of US and NATO military policies, the fast decline of Russian internal stability and economic strenght would be an incentive to increase military spending ASAP. Dictators all across the world have been using foreign wars to distract their population from internal problems. Putin has in fact done so previously.
@leonfa259
3 жыл бұрын
I am personally for a better closer cooperation with Russia, Russia has neither the manpower nor the the economy to be the major threat to Europe and the US. China on the other hand would be an immediate worldwide thread if allied with Russia. Concerning military spending: It appears to me that the level of funding isn't the issue, the ineffectiveness of military spending, bad policy decisions and a misplaced strategic focus is. If for example Israel and Saudi-Arabia ever went to war, I wouldn't bet on the military that is 3 times as expensiv as the other.
@scratchy996
3 жыл бұрын
The German state has lead an aggressive "pussification" policy of its population over the years, born out of guilt and shame of what happened more than 75 years ago. It got to the point that many Germans actively hate their own soldiers, and think that peacekeeping missions are offensive wars. "Si vis pacem, para bellum" - this will always be true. The wars of today are fought in every possible way, at the same time. Cyber warfare, economic warfare, proxy wars, etc. Syria is a good example of Russia waging a proxy war against NATO. "Speak softly, but carry a big stick." - This says it all.
@scratchy996
3 жыл бұрын
@@leonfa259 "I am personally for a better closer cooperation with Russia, Russia has neither the manpower nor the the economy to be the major threat to Europe and the US." - oh, you sweet summer child.
@davidmeek8017
3 жыл бұрын
Aloha; thank you very much (mahalo nui loa) for raising this issue with us and having Dr. Franke on. I found the discussion very enlightening on multiple levels - politics, counter drone operations, as well as tactical and strategic deployment. Being ignorant of the "how" such things are done in Germany I greatly enjoyed the time taken to (partially) describe the process. Well done. I'd like to see more.
@MilitaryAviationHistory
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks very much David, happy to hear you enjoyed it.
@jjc5475
3 жыл бұрын
the german debate is exactly the same as the Dutch one. so this was very interesting to me. we just got mq9 reaper drones ourselves.
@gertjanmoens4188
3 жыл бұрын
I just checked, the Belgian Air Component also bought 6 reapers.
@joaoespecial4168
3 жыл бұрын
Ist not obligatory to engage on "shadow killing" operations with drones. Germany should define parameters of engagement, like for every other weapon of service. Its not because you have the Luftwaffe that you are obliged to bomb someone! :) Its a tool. Like a tank, a frigate, a fighter, a bullet . You decide wow you use it.
@mergele1000
3 жыл бұрын
Indeed. The problem is that policies are very easy to change or even just ignore. And considering we are already handing german citizens to the CIA for torture trust issues seem rather warranted to me.
@lavrentivs9891
3 жыл бұрын
@@mergele1000 At least if there are laws, you can arrest leaders for breaking them or if they try to change them you can stop or at least try to stop them doing that.
@noobster4779
3 жыл бұрын
@@lavrentivs9891 Like the us leaders get arrested when they break the law and commit war crimes when it is uncovered? The hole Snowden or Assange manhunts prove the exact reason why people dont trust militaries and politician with that technology. Instead of punishing the criminals the people uncovering war crimes get hunted down as traitors. Good job.
@lavrentivs9891
3 жыл бұрын
@@noobster4779 That is USA's problem and they need to solve it.
@hernerweisenberg7052
3 жыл бұрын
There is also a concern regarding the justification needed to deploy military assets like this. If you have to risk your soldiers lifes to interfere in a warzone, the people in charge have to think carefully if they want to expose their troops to those risks. If you have armed drones flown via satellite link from home, then fighting in a war and taking lifes could become an average dayjob with zero risk to the pilot, who, after is shift is done, goes home to his family like in any other job. This could lower the threshold needed to justify interference in conflict zones. Personally i think these systems make a lot of sense, but one can see how in a country with germans history, concerns like these can't be dismissed easily.
@tomdonahue4224
3 жыл бұрын
How about building a German drone that looks like a Stuka and put some air sirens under the wings? That should calm everyone's sensibilities about an armed Germany. Yes I am joking.
@berttrombetta4953
3 жыл бұрын
Awwww :(
@scripted.-666
3 жыл бұрын
I got a better idea: We just restart the production of the stuka and replace all tornado's with it lol
@_..Justin-Case.._
3 жыл бұрын
The Onion News Network needs to make a video about this
@rext87able
3 жыл бұрын
sad face
@anonymous-rb2sr
3 жыл бұрын
Well any design that is unoptimal would indeed calm everyone's sensibilities about an armed Germany, as opposed to more efficient designs It's not like hitler wanted to build tanks because "he was worried about the safety of germans or wanted to avoid losses of the poor german soldiers" lol Anyways why are germans even killing people and dropping bomb in Mali right now? I wonder how germans would feel if malians were occupying their country, dropping bombs on their cities, and discussing if Mali should rearm even more
@RecklessTurtle
3 жыл бұрын
Her giggle at the beginning 🤣 ()
@Trashloot
3 жыл бұрын
I think that is a German thing. My teachers always did this.
@lancejackson3524
3 жыл бұрын
Yes, its cute.
@30LayersOfKevlar
3 жыл бұрын
Always like when guests and experts appear. It's like CSIS.
@cannonfodder4376
3 жыл бұрын
It's one thing to have a rigorous debate. Its another thing to do that repeatedly and never come to a resolution on such an important matter. At least you pushed the order on the new Eurofighters through. A fantastic interview, learned what I needed to know about the debate and controversy in Germany regarding the topic. Fantastic work as always Bismarck.
@iffracem
3 жыл бұрын
"It's one thing to have a rigorous debate. Its another thing to do that repeatedly and never come to a resolution on such an important matter." but... but... that's what bureaucrats do, it's their job
@mangalores-x_x
3 жыл бұрын
it is an election year, of course none make debatable decisions. Otherwise the main issue is that we had several Grand coalitions in a row aka the biggest center left and right parties forced to form a government which means you have the usual opposed positions forced to compromise which also includes removing all topics that can break this alliance. Armed drones are such a topic because the left wing parties generally don't want to be in military adventures in the first place. A center right party coalition would have simply pushed it through and then after that everyone would have chalked it up.
@donaldlouisjohn3652
3 жыл бұрын
Very good, Chris. It’s me, the guy with the Fokker D 8 stick model, and who painted the stars on the PBY for “Midway” (1976). Thank you both for learning to speak English. ( I have a little Italian- enough to rent an apartment in Rome and Venice. ) ... I, too, am troubled by what humans do with a ‘new toy’. The fact that American drone ‘pilots’ are overworked is a disgrace. The drone pilots are the supervisor’s ‘new toys’, and look what he does with them.
@JagerLange
3 жыл бұрын
Newshound Chris upping the ante. Seriously though, thanks for this - I felt like this gave me quite a lot of info on a discussion I wouldn't otherwise have been involved in, and I hope it brings more info to the viewers (and maybe more viewers to the channel).
@MilitaryAviationHistory
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it
@deltavee2
3 жыл бұрын
Well done, Chris. You've come a long way when you are able to interview knowledgeable and involved people from the top level like Dr. Franke. I appreciate what you are doing here. I'm hoping you have involved an additional demographic in the debate, namely your viewers. Thanks for presenting us with this insight into the German political aspect, especially the actions of the SPD and the situation for the Bundeswehr. With an election coming in four months, the makeup of the new coalition will be very interesting. I'll be watching the election to see where the SPD wind up. It's obvious to me that they are making policy by not allowing policy to be approved and acted on ie. killing it by stalling it to death through debate and calls for additional study. Cheers from a long-time subscriber in Canada
@toddwebb7521
3 жыл бұрын
I'm honestly surprised to see such a Germany specific topic presented in English
@slick4401
3 жыл бұрын
Way to go, Chris! Excellent idea, to treat current issues in such deep manner with competent and knowledgeable collaborations such as Dr. Franke's.
@bvkronenberg6786
3 жыл бұрын
We never hear about this issue in the US. Thank you, please do more videos about Germany and European defense issues.
@gulliverthegullible6667
3 жыл бұрын
It is pretty scary to think that the US military has been murdering civilians on pretty much a daily basis for a decade now and you never hear about that issue in the USA as you say.
@4600norm
3 жыл бұрын
@@gulliverthegullible6667 We hear about drones blowing people up plenty. We rarely (if ever) hear about German or European defense issues, which are another thing entirely.
@paixeon8816
3 жыл бұрын
@@4600norm Don't waste your time responding to people like that...
@XMysticHerox
3 жыл бұрын
Because it was pushed through without asking the public. Also as was said in the video a big reason for it being controversial is the way the US uses them.
@kden9772
3 жыл бұрын
What is the difference between flying a jet and dropping a missile on someone and flying a drone and dropping a missile one someone? I am confused at the objection to the armed drone based on anything but cost.
@ABrit-bt6ce
3 жыл бұрын
No risk to life for the attacker with a drone and if they don't get shot down there's nothing to prove that the target didn't just have a particularly bad day.
@geofftimm2291
3 жыл бұрын
The difference is the attention directed by Communist propagandists. Geoff Who knows survival is moral.
@kden9772
3 жыл бұрын
@@ABrit-bt6ce Your arguments aren't objections to unmanned armed aircraft. No risk to the attacker is only a benefit militarily as you don't need to risk trained pilots and if the drone isn't shot down that's what we in the business call a success.
@ABrit-bt6ce
3 жыл бұрын
@@kden9772 It's also a deniable way to have someone assasinated.
@kden9772
3 жыл бұрын
@@ABrit-bt6ce How is it any more deniable than having a person assasinate someone from a jet?
@michaelripperger5674
3 жыл бұрын
Bismarck - please have this guest on again. She breaks it down.
@xgford94
3 жыл бұрын
Proper current affairs journalism with a real expert, discussing facts without hyperbole. Great to see.
@TheSgruby
3 жыл бұрын
When you have Poland and Baltic states plus American bases between German borders and Russia , you can spent time on nice discussions in Germany.
@anonymous-rb2sr
3 жыл бұрын
Thankfully even if Germany rearmed almost fully, it would just feel like a mosquito bite to Russia, if germans think they can start up trouble one more time without getting the full nuclear treatment, they are delusional, not that delusion isn't a strong german trait
@alexavesmenura4887
3 жыл бұрын
Really good video. Thanks for the effort and detailed insight.I would love to see more videos like this. Especially with regard to the problems mentioned here with the Tornado successor or the replacement of the maritime reconnaissance aircraft. There were many decisions and debates about this last year, if I'm not mistaken.
@thebigone6071
3 жыл бұрын
You da king of military aviation historians Chris!!! The 🐐!!! Thanks for the knowledge my g!!!!
@robendert7617
3 жыл бұрын
Great to have such a knowledgeable person explaining the situation, including the larger German military and political context. Greetings from a Dutch guy happily lost in the Swiss mountains.
@AutodromoF1
3 жыл бұрын
I like the iron cross on drones, makes me think of the Red Baron. You guys should paint them red lol
@gulliverthegullible6667
3 жыл бұрын
You may notice that there is an iron cross on all Bundeswehr vehicles.
@danditto4864
3 жыл бұрын
If you have a drone, a couple hours and a mountable missile you can have an armed drone. This is a silly debate.
@gerhardswihla1099
3 жыл бұрын
For me as a german it isn't a silly dabate. I support the idea of armed drones supporting the armed forces on the ground but it has to be secured that their weapons are only used as a backup and a clear chain of command so if shit hits the fan there is clear who has to take responsibility. I would like to compare it to a captain of a nuclear submarine. No cowboys allowed for this job.
@eldermoose7938
3 жыл бұрын
@@gerhardswihla1099 I mean what confuses me is you as a nation seem to know exactly what you do and don't want to do with these weapons', namely don't act like US ad it's PMC thugs, so it should be a simple issue of implementing these regulations that block target killing and use by PMCs under state direction.
@gerhardswihla1099
3 жыл бұрын
@@eldermoose7938 I wish it was this easy. We Germans have also different opinions and our share of stupidity.
@williamdavis9562
3 жыл бұрын
Europe is a silly place, hence they'll have silly debates. If they did have armed drones, the next debate would be why there aren't enough pink haired lesbians flying them.
@dylanmilne6683
3 жыл бұрын
Fascinating. Great video Chris! Partly facinating because how you've put on the hat of a defence journalist and it fits quite smartly.
@GreatistheWorld
3 жыл бұрын
I hear language like “a very German problem” around their defense issues a lot, is there a good place to start reading to contextualize this or a chance you could do a video about it? This was a great episode btw, perfect length
@paulsagichnicht7552
3 жыл бұрын
a good point? 2 Worldwars and the cold war ... and Germanys key-role in all threeof them
@sparkshark9697
3 жыл бұрын
The Military is a very sensitive topic because of our past. Some people don't understand that the Bundeswehr isn't the Wehrmacht. That's basically it.
@CB-py1xh
3 жыл бұрын
The reason is the far leftist takeover of Germany since 1968. In the 50s and 60s only a decade + after WW2 Western Germany was even pushing hard for becoming a nuclear power. During the cold war times both German militaries where state of the art and got everything that they needed.
@hu-ry
3 жыл бұрын
@@CB-py1xh far leftist xD thats a far stretch my dude Its also more a question of morality tbh, since the german bunderwehr is meant to only defend germany and not attack, where weaponized drones play a key role in.
@mangalores-x_x
3 жыл бұрын
@@CB-py1xh "During the cold war times both German militaries where state of the art and got everything that they needed." That is absolutely ignorant bollocks...
@mariusssssss
3 жыл бұрын
so this boils down to: •people being afraid of these systems being autonomous despite drones requiring operators •people not trusting the bw to not use the drones illegally •people thinking that drones make warfare less personal ?
@richardpowell3266
3 жыл бұрын
People can’t easily tell if a drone is human operated or autonomous and they don’t trust that AI won’t be sneakily introduced.
@boredstudent9468
3 жыл бұрын
Drohnes are infact already able to fly (and kill) autonomously, i isnt just commoly done, due to legal issues and fear of faliure
@Caldera01
3 жыл бұрын
What I heard as a Finn: "Ziegheilscheibe" Thinking to myself: "Wait, what? That can't be real, surely.."
@MrWarwick15
3 жыл бұрын
Great interview Chris. A topic I'd never given any thought to. My thanks to both of you. Rich.
@D3R3bel
3 жыл бұрын
Drones are a necessary part of modern warfare, for recon and strike missions. There is too much public fear of weaponized drones in general because they can be used to "kill". Weaponized drones use the same armaments as those already used in fighters, such as laser guided GBUs and Mavericks. The reason they are so valuable is because they are hard to detect, hard to kill, and dont require a pilot to risk his life doing otherwise risky missions such as striking HVTs and thus can accomplish missions with much more reliability and less risk. Not having drones simply means that these harder missions will not be feasible, or taken over by fighters and conventional airstrikes which will be much more haphazard with the way they dispense their munitions because the risk of dying far behind enemy lines is very high and the pilot will be under a lot of stress. Weaponized drones are extremely accurate and precise, and at the very least require heavy oversight against more controversial targets. Of course, the other major use of drones is recon, where the intelligence or battlefield support can save lives and reduce civilian casualties especially against insurgent forces.
@shorewall
3 жыл бұрын
Yep, drones are a must. It is the military and governments that must be mistrusted.
@neandertaler4154
3 жыл бұрын
That was a very nice Video, I would like to see more about modern aspects of military Aviation espacially with Experts like those who can explain things so well.
@victordesoto535
3 жыл бұрын
Excellent interview. I appreciate the clear illustration of Germany's internal defense debate. Thank you to the Doctor for participating.
@ninjaduck3k
3 жыл бұрын
Great interview. Very informative and thought-inducing.
@jeebus6263
3 жыл бұрын
Think about Germany joining with the CCP.
@rangie944
3 жыл бұрын
My interest piqued in drones by the Nagorno-Karabakh situation, which appears to have changed the battlefield in a fundamental and lethal way. Very interesting to hear the way drones are being debated in Germany, one to follow. Thanks for posting.
@zapfanzapfan
3 жыл бұрын
I like the painting on her wall.
@thecanadiankiwibirb4512
3 жыл бұрын
Print of starry night?
@midnattsol6207
3 жыл бұрын
A pov from the opposing side, if you are interested: [german btw] I see in this a conflict between two different political motivations - a humanist one of making the state behave ethically and the classical realist one of gaining competitiveness against other states. It's a choice of what you favor and the current decition took side for the first one. I do understand the point you put forward, that immediate CAS for the troops provides them with an advantage in combat situations - i agree with this being true and it's probably the best image to sell this push for armed drones to a german audience. Yet i also see this possible decition to arm drones as being on a path of consecutive small decitions which lead towards democracies/germany losing their hesitance to 'solve' problems by military conflict. Wars are pretty unpopular in a democracy because those deciding about war and peace are the ones to suffer from its consequences. When you provide options to wage war which promise little danger to the agressor, they are more likely to be chosen - something we already saw with no-fly zones in Syria and Lybia. Going for the policy to arm drones is a slippery slope. While almost noone wants germany to end up committing war crimes with drones all over the world like the USA, it doesn't take many more policy changes to end up there. Once you have armed drones which cover ground forces, how much does it take to pass on the ground forces every now and then - and just send the drone? It might be tactically wise at times, depending on the scenario of threat. This step would be smaller than arming the drones in the first place, imo. Once we are at this point, there is no reason to believe that german drones would not suffer from the issues of imprecise target identification or ease of use as much as the drones of other states already using them today. The first step - the decition to arm the drones - is the easiest chainlet to hold down with your feet. In the past 6 years, there have been pushes by the conservative and liberitarian part of the political spectrum in germany to change foreign policy into germany becoming more agressive again and using its military to enforce national interests under the euphemism of 'taking responsibility'. Our past with the Third Reich under Hitler and the resulting policy of "Nie Wieder!" ('Never Again!') has allowed Germany to be more like the 'good guy' for multiple decades, opting out when our allies caused horrible things and generally giving ethics an in into International Relations. With the threat (my pov) of such an undesirable change of policy on the horizon, it is an ideologically reasonable move to deny the Bundeswehr primarily offensive equipment which would make it easier to implement such a change in policy. While i do disagree with your perspective, i'll still leave you a like, as you present the topic in a factual way - thanks for the video :) ----- And yes - Dr. Franke is right - Nuclear Sharing is a way bigger issue than armed drones, as it effectively makes Germany a nuclear weapons state through the backdoor. If people would know about it and military policies would be discussed more, this practice would not survive public opinion. The SPD not supporting armed drones also is a tactical move as they aim to form a coalition with The Left (and Greens) after the next election - for which a decition like this would be a significant issue. The SPD also is internally devided, with its liberitarian wing supporting armed drones while the left wing is against it - so 'not enough discussion' is the kind of phrase you hear when the party leaders don't want to piss off one of their factions with a decition.
@dcay5652
3 жыл бұрын
As a Swamp German i greet you Mountain Dutchmen.
@dcay5652
3 жыл бұрын
@@fraskf6765 Die Niederlande, mein Freund.
@huantruonginh2946
3 жыл бұрын
I worked with the IAI once as an interpreter for a Heron training project. We were told by the Israel instructor that one of their clients crashed their Heron into a mountain due to wrong selection of the waypoint in the control software. The client name was not mentioned but it was rumored that it's Germany
@rohandanielisaac8107
3 жыл бұрын
Germany: *debating getting armed drones* India: GET 50 of THEM!
@rohandanielisaac8107
3 жыл бұрын
@Pro Tengu Thanks, we'll buy 30 from you guys as well :D
@Rapinasimplicis
3 жыл бұрын
I think that the Azerbaijani-Armenian War kinda ends the debate. Kudos to Bismarck and Dr Franke for mentioning it especially regarding drone defense. That showed how shockingly effective even the smallest and cheapest of drones can be especially when there is no defense against them. It also showed how widespread the problem is. It’s not just a concern that only great powers have them but now that small regional powers like Azerbaijan can easily acquire and deploy large amounts. Not having drones or armed drones seems to me to be like not having an air force or only having recon planes in 1939.
@angrybirder9983
3 жыл бұрын
Actually, that war shifted the debate in the direction of not arming drones. That's crazy, I know. They seem to think that because everyone else uses drones in immoral ways, the Bundeswehr would too. Germany is not the US. Germany is not Armenia. We can do better than them.
@oat138
3 жыл бұрын
Very interesting. How did you get her? She is very well informed about drones. Thank you.
@ayli9
3 жыл бұрын
Wow, I'm massively surprised that this sort if debate exists and prevents Germany from acquiring a technology that enables you to kill the bad guys with 0 risk for your own personnel, unlike, say F-16 usage. I'd like to see more videos on modern German military !:) Cheers from Israel!
@ShadySheev
3 жыл бұрын
Drone Manufacturer: "How many weapon systems do you want on your drone?" USA: "Yes!" Germany: "Doesn't that drone look like half a swastika when seen from below? Do we really want it to be able to fly, Günther?"
@thaedleinad
3 жыл бұрын
Lmao!
@ThePinkus
3 жыл бұрын
Excellent discussion, extremely competent and clear guest. Well done, and thanks to Dr. Franke for her considerations.
@angrybirder9983
3 жыл бұрын
The argument that the pilot is so much further away from the battlefield is kinda stupid. A fighter pilot doing CAS from 20 000ft isn't particularly close to the battlefield either. He's mosly looking at the screens in the cockpit. The UCAV pilot is also looking at screens. Actually, the drone pilot could go closer to the actual fight that the manned fighter, because if you go low in areas with MANPADS risk, it's perfectly fine with a drone, but if you're actually sitting in that aircraft? Nah. As a consequence, the drone pilot would see more than the fighter pilot, increasing effectiveness and reducing collateral damage.
@devilslawyer1646
3 жыл бұрын
The perfect guest: extremely smart, articulate, informed, and gorgeous.
@DellMoney_
3 жыл бұрын
The Troops should be making this decision not the politicians who are thousands of Km away from the battlefield
@Yordleton
3 жыл бұрын
sure, let's just let a bunch of uneducated 18 year olds blow each other up 🙃
@goaway7346
3 жыл бұрын
Soldiers are trained to shoot, not think. The fewer decisions they make the fewer deaths there will be.
@WALTERBROADDUS
3 жыл бұрын
Now, now... Let's not go nuts. Civilian oversight over the military is a needed thing. Germany is not Sparta.
@WALTERBROADDUS
3 жыл бұрын
@@goaway7346 that's a bit of an oversimplification. Today's professional military hardly fits that bill.
@jukahri
3 жыл бұрын
Politicians represent the people, who in democracy hold the authority and also provide the funding for the military. The military, like experts in every other field of government, should inform the decisions made by the government, they don't get to make the decisions themselves.
@stupidburp
3 жыл бұрын
Has Germany considered a direct local control limit for use of armed drones? This would utilize them as a system that is an extension of some manned system in the same area, possibly limited even to visual range. That would tie them firmly to military use in areas that the military service members are operating close by. The operators would then likely be in the air in manned aircraft but could also potentially be on the ground nearby.
@stoiberandi1879
3 жыл бұрын
I personally like the idea of the Russian su 70 where the drone is a kind of support aircraft that Flys in formation with normal Jets and the pilot can decide at the location what the drone will do
@bruh5361
3 жыл бұрын
The 'loyal wingman' is in research in the US and FCAS is supposed to include such drones
@stoiberandi1879
3 жыл бұрын
@@bruh5361 I knew the US has also something like that I just took the Russian one as an example because I think the Russian one is closer to mass production but I am not sure about that one and I like the looks of the Su 70 "ochotnik" ;)
@giroromek8423
3 жыл бұрын
Interesting video on a low visibility debate outside of Germany. From France.
@andrerousseau5730
3 жыл бұрын
Innocent civilian collateral damage is what alarms people (rightly so) even though there is still a human 'in-the-loop' but the truly scary aspect is when the human is either totally replaced or indeed, even supplemented by A.I.
@realQuiGon
3 жыл бұрын
The risk of collateral damage from drones is considerably less than from manned aircraft or even artillery, as drones with their superior sensors and loiter capability can build a much better picture of the target area than any other system and strike with precision guided munitions. I never understood why people that are against drones for this reason, seem to have no such issues with manned aircraft or even artillery systems that are much more prone to cause collateral damage. Autonomus and AI weapon systems are a completely different matter than remotely piloted drones and I can definitely see the issues there.
@andrerousseau5730
3 жыл бұрын
@@realQuiGon I can't speak for "other people" but I DO have issues with manned aircraft attacks. It's not the lack of precision weaponry, it's the lack of accurate intelligence behind the mission. Perhaps also, you're listening to the wrong people; try listening to the innocent people who've had their lives wrecked by a mis-placed missile never mind those who are no longer around to complain about it.
@noahbirthisel3285
3 жыл бұрын
@@realQuiGon The counter to the "considerably fewer civ casualties" is that targeted strikes are a strategic niche of UAVs thus they run the numbers on having civilian casualties more often.
@realQuiGon
3 жыл бұрын
@@noahbirthisel3285 But that niche wouldn't apply to the German use of armed drones.
@noahbirthisel3285
3 жыл бұрын
@@realQuiGon Air to ground targeting plus long-term intelligence gathering and recon makes drones perfect for target acquisition the only thing stopping Germany from utilizing it is themselves, although they seem to be somewhat comfortable with us doing it for them.
@TheKnaeckebrot
3 жыл бұрын
Super Video - gerne mehr dieser qualifizierten, angenehmen Interviews! :)
@MilitaryAviationHistory
3 жыл бұрын
Danke, mehr sind geplant.
@JohnSmith-hp9ds
3 жыл бұрын
My opinion as an uneducated American is that you guys should do whatever you can to make sure your boys get home safe
@garynew9637
3 жыл бұрын
Bottom line exactly.
@gulliverthegullible6667
3 жыл бұрын
The problem is that people fear that the USA may coerce Germany to participate in their assassination campaigns which has cost so many civilian lives.
@justtheaverageone3840
3 жыл бұрын
@@gulliverthegullible6667 already happening in ramstein
@Scott-fj9uf
3 жыл бұрын
I love your channel. I am deeply hoping one day you make a in-depth video on the FW-189. It, to me, is the single most overlooked airplane of the entire war.
@anonymous-rb2sr
3 жыл бұрын
* Germany * : Discussing the aquisition of modern weapon systems * France * : Aw shit, here we go again
@jukahri
3 жыл бұрын
More like "at long fucking last somebody else is getting serious about this defense thing again".
@anonymous-rb2sr
3 жыл бұрын
@@jukahri The only thing France has ever had to defend itself from is german invasions
@GermanEngineer84
3 жыл бұрын
@@anonymous-rb2sr True, because every other time they were the aggressors.
@jrs3739
3 жыл бұрын
Some issues here: 1. Under the proposed lease scheme (i.e. renting operating hours), who is actually operating the drone in question? Largely irrelevant re surveillance-only drones, extremely relevant re armed drones and use of said arms. Diffusion of responsibility is not an option when war crimes might be committed. 2. Re assassinations via drone (which are very much illegal under international law just as any other extrajudicial killing perpetrated by a nation on foreign sovereign soil would be): If we have learned anything from the militarization of police forces and the policification of the military (with respect to its tasks) of recent years, it's that having a certain capability is in itself an incentive to then make use of said capability. The stated reasons for procuring armed drones do not in any way preclude their use for other purposes. 3. While drones are not currently automated in any relevant way, they clearly are a step on the way to automation of warfare, seeing as they remove the human further from the consequences of their actions (consider the difference between sword swung from a few feet way, trigger pulled from a few hundred feet away, drone used from thousands of miles away, to mere command issued to automated forces from anywhere). So no, no one mistakes current drones for killer robots. Just another tool that makes killing even more abstract and thus even easier, a trajectory we've been on for some time now. 4. What hasn't been considered in the vid is that people are very uncomfortable with the Bundeswehr's mission creep over the years. Originally intended as a purely defensive force, we have had to endure grotesque mental gymnastics like "Our freedom is being defended at the Hindukush" in recent years. Therefore, anything that increases the Bundeswehr's offensive capabilities is rightfully viewed with a good deal of skepticism. 5. It sounds like the CDU and "everyone involved" were expecting the debates to be mere window dressing, with the result always fixed as "Great, now that we've talked about it and everybody had their say, let's do what I wanted to do all along." While that is very realpolitik, you can't really fault the SPD for not playing along with such a charade (even considering their ulterior motives re the upcoming election). If debate should have any raison d'être, you have to make room for the possibility of the result being "Naw thanks, we're gonna pass on that." 6. Re bigger issues falling by the wayside: This is actually pretty useful for one side of the debate on said bigger issues. As long as the public is disctracted with an issue this side views as minor (i.e. to arm or not to arm drones) they have more or less free rein concerning the bigger issues. The German equivalent to Hawks still wet their pants thinking of the massive opposition they faced to many of their goals during the 60s to 80s and are grateful for any distraction (even if that causes a delay in procurement of a system they'd also like). 7. Re trust... Le sigh... For one thing, all training in the world, the clearest rules of engagement imaginable do not prevent soldiers committing atrocities, being ordered to commit atrocities with any other weapon type the respective military has in its arsenal. How are drones different? Also, seeing as one of the most elite units in the Bundeswehr was a hotbed for Neonazis who stole and horded weapons and ammo and seeing as these soldiers have been offered an extrajudicial pardon if they just return what they stole and seeing as that is not the only occasion Neonazis in the Bundeswehr have been not only active but dangerously so, and seeing as the Bundeswehr leadership has so far proven to be remarkably incapable of dealing with the issue in any sustainable way... is anyone really supposed to trust the Bundeswehr?
@alexandresen247
3 жыл бұрын
"we've had drones since the 80's" V1 & V2: Am I a joke to you?
@geofftimm2291
3 жыл бұрын
Those are ballistic missiles. They cannot be retargeted, or targeted at all, in flight. A drone is controllable and often has an operator interface. Geoff Who refers you to a nearly infinite number of video games.
@chrish.942
3 жыл бұрын
@@geofftimm2291 The V2 is ballistic, the V1 is a cruise missile as it has a non-ballistic, flat trajectory and continuous propulsion until close to impact, although it is not controllable or retargetable (neither were the Thomahawk 1 and 2s, although they may have had a disarm or self destruct function). Some V1 even had basic one way radio controls. Other than that the control algo was as follows: V1: Launch set heading xxxx, IAS x If distance= 60 km -> arm warhead impact fuze if distance = xyz km -> disable autopilot, nose down Thomahawk Block I: Launch goto GPS: ab.cdef:gh.ijk then: arm warhead nose down
@geofftimm2291
3 жыл бұрын
@@chrish.942 I have heard the arguments, but with the V1 and V2 you couldn't target anything smaller than London, and even then they missed. For me it comes down to the old Werner Von Braun, pardon me Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun's famous line, "I just shoot 'em up! Where they come down, ain't my department." Geoff Who has no sympathy for Nazis.
@TheStugbit
3 жыл бұрын
There's a great chance of drones actually taking the place of every kind of aircraft in the future. It's a technology with much potential. They will be able to do the same things aircraft does and more. One concept of weapon people usually don't talk much about for instance is aircraft submarines. The Japanese use those things in WWII, but I haven't seen them ever since. With drones, however, the concept can be more practical. I don't know if there's any navy operating aircraft submarines already.
@tickticktickBOOOOM
3 жыл бұрын
I'm amazed at how sheltered from reality you need to be to have this debate in the first place.
@jeebus6263
3 жыл бұрын
Like how German leadership sold out to the CCP?
@woongah
3 жыл бұрын
On one side, I recognise that German politicians have reason to debate - using armed drones to execute illegal extrajudicial killings outside battle zones, of quite doubtful efficacity and with horrible unintended "side" fatalities, may not be automatic but is sure as Hell quite tempting. On the other side, politicians stopping the adoption of a new, advantageous and relatively thrifty weapons paradigm? At a time when even the scrappiest neighbours adopt it, precisely to be able to punch above their weight? Sure, why not? It worked so well with aircrafts... The only real dilemma is whether go all in already, or biding time waiting for truly autonomous killer drones to be developed.
@TheHom3er
3 жыл бұрын
the three main reasons why it such a big issue: WW1, WW2 and... wait, do you guys know something we don't know?
@lucasgrey9794
3 жыл бұрын
@None None The "third reich" is the reason your grandparents didn't rot in a gulag. Furthermore, Germany almost had nukes in the 50s but for internal forces refusing. The Americans had no problem with it. Finally, Germany doesn't have nukes because MORONS take NARRATIVE as historical canon.
@lucasgrey9794
3 жыл бұрын
Actually the issue is the NARRATIVE on WW1 and 2. Nobody reads 'The Discorses' by Machiavelli anymore these days. People learn NARRATIVE instead of History.
@Tom_Cruise_Missile
3 жыл бұрын
America learned the opposite lesson from Germany from WW2.. wonder how that ended up happening?
@lucasgrey9794
3 жыл бұрын
@@Tom_Cruise_Missile What lesson did Germany learn? Let me guess; "eXpAnSiOn BaD"? I'm curious. What was Germany supposed to do? Allow Stalin to take over ALL of Europe? Do you want Russian hegemony?
@yochaiwyss3843
3 жыл бұрын
@@lucasgrey9794 At what point? Awfully convenient for Germany to make a Pact with the Soviets, clearly outlining spheres of influence and occupation, like the Soviet Expansion to the Baltics and Poland, only to go around and blame the Soviets for Conquering the very same nations Germany allowed them to. Or you'd like to continue pretending the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact didn't happen?
@MitchHirami
3 жыл бұрын
Hi, ist leider leicht off topic aber kannst du etwas zu dem Buch „Die Ersten und Letzten“ von Adolf Galland sagen? Ist es ein gutes Buch oder eher fragwürdige Memoiren?
@Jrez
3 жыл бұрын
I mean, if they're having a debate for 9 years or w/e it kinda sounds like they don't need them. Like, they've been fine for the last 9 years. Not that I'm against the Bundeswehr acquiring armed drones but that seems like such a long time if they have really been wanting them.
@marcinfrostymroz
3 жыл бұрын
Good summary there from dr. Franke. I wonder why, in the eyes of some people, is an armed drone so different to a high lying jet launching something like standoff missile? And no one seems to have problems with Taurus... Also i don't see why trying to save own soldiers would be a bad thing...
@M167A1
3 жыл бұрын
Kamikaze drone, a fancy term for missile
@daszieher
3 жыл бұрын
meh, not really. kamikaze drones can launch, patrol and loiter and later return to base, if no strike is needed.
@Treblaine
3 жыл бұрын
What next? Pilotless bullets?
@topkek1194
3 жыл бұрын
I guess loitering munitions would be a better term to use
@herbertpocket8855
3 жыл бұрын
Wow! Awesome to hear an expert talk about this issue!
@jeebus6263
3 жыл бұрын
What issue
@christophergodawski5663
3 жыл бұрын
Odd...I though the Germans had something like that already ? (* Spits a cherry stone in the direction of London *)
@antonleimbach648
3 жыл бұрын
This was a very insightful discussion. Thank you for posting and I hope to see more.
@kitchensynch624
3 жыл бұрын
Man look at all these comments from people who haven’t watched the video and just jumped to a conclusion based on the title.
@sebastianjohnen9654
3 жыл бұрын
The Drone discussion is much older than presented, even procuring unarmed drones was an issue back around 2000, because people feared that they could be weaponized. We have actually come a long way that weaponized drones are even on the table to be discussed. What’s the problem? Well some important reasons have been covered in the video, but a major one that you will hear prominently from almost every drone critic: is the fear of such systems turning war into a video game and removing the empathy of the Soldier with their "victims". In their mind that empathy is a safeguard against atrocities that might otherwise be preformed. They believe a drone controller sitting in front of monitor looking at a picture/video feed from a remote bunker possibly safe on the other side of the world will not have the same inherent and trained moral issues as a Soldier who is live on site. They fear an emotional and moral disconnect. This is fuelled by a look at how people playing video games in which they kill or hurt simulated people rarely face the moral issues connected with doing so in real life. The American drone strikes with lots of damage in innocent civilian lives and the American disregard for those just enforces this view. Add in German military history which is full of atrocities with a public sensitive to this shameful past in a extent that is unlike any other country and it becomes more understandable why a part of the population is pushing against armed drones. Now to me it is obvious that such disconnect had already been implemented. Artillery and Airstrikes have been disconnected to an even larger extent than suggested since at least WWII. A modern bomber pilot is not going to have any more meaningful live sight of the target than the drone pilot in the bunker. So there is quite a bit of ignorance involved. This ignorance is the real reason why the SPD is not willing to vote to get weaponized drones in a election year. Most of the arguments against having armed drones dissolve after a reality check. But while those involved in the discussion will face that reality check, and thus most of the SPD and CDU know well the actual pros and cons of having such systems, there is no easy way to transfer this knowledge to the populace. The CDU have little problem since they have always been the pro military party with their voters inline. The SPD while a similar pro-military track record has voters that are not so much inline. At the same time the SPD is fighting over voters with two anti-war parties, the Grünen (pro environment) and Linken (left). It is thus no surprise that the experts of the SPD involved in the discussion would vote for arming drones but not in a election year. They could do it shortly after election year, both to get people to forget the decision and for the reality of introduction and real use of the systems to disprove many of the fears the population has against the use of armed drones. Doing so in an election year on the other hand would lose them voters they could not gain back in time. For completion I would also like to point out that there is a certain part of the population that dream of turning Germany into the next Switzerland in regards to military matters. As the Video kind of points out for them the struggle of armed drones is just one step in that direction. Some of them and even other anti drone advocates hold the worst in my eyes argument against drones. The argument is that using drones take away the danger for the soldier and therefore less moral. The idea is that those away from the front not putting their lives on the line should not take lives, basically only those under direct threat have the right to do so. I can understand that this idea is based on the idea of legitimate self-defence. But that simply does not work in a war with the weapons available and quite frankly needed to win and especially reduce the risk for civilian and the own soldiers.
@scottyfox6376
3 жыл бұрын
Drones are the future whether we like it or not.
@shorewall
3 жыл бұрын
Definitely. You can either learn how to use it, or be left behind.
@noobster4779
3 жыл бұрын
We once pioneered military and extermination technology as well. "It is the future" is not an excuse to commit war crimes. the ends dont justify the means. Germany learned that leason post WW2. the winners of that war didnt.
@angrybirder9983
3 жыл бұрын
@@noobster4779 Nobody said that drones lead inevitably to war crimes. There are many legal ways to use them.
@AGS363
3 жыл бұрын
It goes without saying, that this debate is manly between politicians, activists and journalists. The bigger public does not participate; the most people do not even know that it exist.
@Contentrist
3 жыл бұрын
For a soldier in a NATO ally bordering Russia, questions in German government like "Do we even need Bundeswehr?" scare me. Next thing you know there are "little green men" in the Baltic States. The old proverb is true today moreso than in the past "If you don't want war, prepare for it"
@LOL60345
3 жыл бұрын
JUST LOVE EACH OTHER !! NO MORE HATE !! PLANT SUNFLOWERS AND MAKE SOLAR ENERGY !!! YOU AND YOUR STUPID GUNS, POOPOO CLOWNS !!! SUNFLOWERS !!!!
@Contentrist
3 жыл бұрын
@@LOL60345 I can't tell if you're sarcastic :D or serious :I
@LOL60345
3 жыл бұрын
@@Contentrist :DDD
@eddietat95
3 жыл бұрын
Another point: I would imagine better public support for anti-UAV *defense* systems mentioned at the end and that could be a better contribution to NATO. There's a wide capability gap there anyways. Just let the USAF do the armed drone thing. A Luftwaffe Eurodrone would likely be grounded for maintenance anyways like the rest of the Bundeswehr's recent purchases.
@falanglao01
3 жыл бұрын
When the 'correct' use of gender-* in a document or speech (in the military, mind you!) becomes more important than the content, then you've got a problem...
@BudroThePious
3 жыл бұрын
An excellent expert guest, very insightful and well spoken.
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