The announcers were horrific in this situation. Spreading more misinformation and complaining that the fans take and then fill comments like these with complaints. The umpires nailed the call. The third baseman should know that the runner on third left early, that's one of his responsibilities and he should have explicitly stepped on the bag to make that appeal first before appealing the other runner. Even if it doesn't matter in this situation make it clear and explicit what you are going for to the umpire. Who knows what was in the third baseman's head as he randomly stepped on the base after tagging the runner without saying anything. Considering the third baseman just sat on the ground for a minute after catching the throw makes it clear that he didn't notice any runners leaving early and just heard his teammates yelling "Tag him!". The rule is complicated but not very hard and the Nationals messed up appeal rules twice, by not appealing a missed base before that in the first place that would have been a free out, and by their players being unaware and not knowing the rules costing them a run. The rule is perfectly fine. An appeal has to be a clear separate effort. Make a blatant step onto the base while looking at the umpire, say who you're appealing. Then tag the runner. The third baseman had no clue what he was doing and none of the announcers had a clue about anything aside from spreading BS and false outrage for everyone to think is the truth.
@MyBiPolarBearMax
2 жыл бұрын
Fyi the radio team nailed it. Charlie and Dave are the best in the business.
@danielcorreard3746
2 жыл бұрын
it seem to me that the umps weren't too hot either
@rayray4192
2 жыл бұрын
Brilliant post! Juxtapose this poor understanding of the rules with hall of fame shortstop Derek Jeter who did it right. Tom Hallion had a mic on when #2 looked at him as he stepped on second base and said,” Runner missed base.” Hallion said,” Which runner?” Mr. Jeter said,” First runner by.” Mr. Hallion said,” Safe,” and signaled safe. Jeter then said,” Second runner by.” as he stepped on second base again. Hallion again said,”’Safe,” as he signaled safe. Jeter didn’t get an out but he knew how to appeal. You can view his plaque at a museum in a small village in upstate New York.
@rayray4192
2 жыл бұрын
@@danielcorreard3746 umpires were perfect. You are ignorant
@joecommenter1332
2 жыл бұрын
I am not a big fan of any rule that requires you to appeal to the umpire to get it enforced.
@r.a.contrerasma8578
2 жыл бұрын
Remember NFL Ref Ed Hochuli? He was so good at explaining the intricacies of a ruling. Too bad Wegner here didn't do that; it was a perfect opportunity missed. This is hopefully where the evolution of the mics go: explaining a ruling and also announcing who gets ejected.
@jeredratliff7726
2 жыл бұрын
Agree completely. I am hopeful this will improve in years to come as baseball umpires are just this year “broadcasting” to their stadiums. Which means none of them had practice - much less developed training - in announcing protocol.
@bradstone1332
2 жыл бұрын
They just gotta get used to being mic’d up and the good explanation will come
@rayray4192
Жыл бұрын
Mark Wegner is doing what the league has instructed him to do. He did not fail. An explanation of a fourth out appeal during a game would not be understood and would take time.
@superadam2112
Жыл бұрын
We all know who got the hook. Not needed
@rayray4192
2 жыл бұрын
Lindsay provided expert analysis. It’s a timing play. R-3 touched home plate before the third out was recorded. Run scores unless a legal appeal is made for a forth out which negates the run. Once the incompetent Nats. left the infield the opportunity to appeal was lost. Umpire perfection and perfect analysis by C.C.S.
@charlesbarber5157
Жыл бұрын
So question if the mats tag the bag first and then the runner at that point the run doesn’t count because that is their first appeal. If they tag the runner prior to the bag the run scores because the run cross prior to tag being made?
@greenmanofkent
8 ай бұрын
@@charlesbarber5157 No. In this case the Nats must touch 3rd, AND clearly indicate to the umpire which runner's actions they are appealing, i.e. R3. Physically tagging R2 is obvious, but this is where the timing comes into play. R3 had crossed the plate prior to R2 being tagged. The run scores unless the Nats explicitly appeal that play (they didn't) or all infielders have left the field of play which they did. The run counts.
@eboyce24
2 ай бұрын
It looks to me that Adrianza touched third base intentionally while also tagging the runner on third. That should constitute two appeals, regardless of in which order they were recorded. According to Adrianza after the game the umpire said he didn't see him on the base and only saw the tag. In other words, touching the bag wasn't "incidental" and so the appeal was technically made by the Nats before they left the field, even if the umpire didn't see it. @@greenmanofkent
@umpinmass
2 жыл бұрын
Why is it ALWAYS the umpire's fault when the teams don't know the rules and then screw it up? And the announcers do not have a clue.
@superadam2112
Жыл бұрын
It’s an obscure rule that has only ever been called a handful of times in history.
@johncurley8486
Жыл бұрын
They awarded a run to a player who didn’t tag up, that was in violation of the rules
@umpinmass
Жыл бұрын
@@johncurley8486 If a runner misses the plate and is not appealed, does his run score? Of course. But he violated the rules by failing to touch the plate. There is no violation until the runner is appealed.
@californiajai
Жыл бұрын
Well, simply due to the fact that Umpires are paid to enforce the rules, thus they must know the rules!
@voncornhole
3 ай бұрын
Because the umpire missed him stepping on the bag. He lingered on the bag for several seconds but it wasn't obvious enough to his old ass eyes??
@harrisjessop1679
2 жыл бұрын
If the fielder who stepped on 3rd at the time of the tag on R2, said he wanted to also appeal R3 then it would be done correctly.
@jametz66
2 жыл бұрын
ding ding ding, ... we have a winner! :) YOU HAVE TO DECLARE WHAT YOU'RE APPEALING! PERIOD.
@MyBiPolarBearMax
2 жыл бұрын
@@jametz66 incorrect, you do not have to verbally do it and if intentionally stepping on the base (you dont accidentally step half on half off) just in case after the tag doesnt constitute an unmistakable desire to appeal, nothing does. No one has been able to tell me why he intentionally stepped on the base AFTER the tag if not to appeal yet.
@jametz66
2 жыл бұрын
@@MyBiPolarBearMax ...OK
@jametz66
2 жыл бұрын
@@MyBiPolarBearMax here's another video the compares 2 different appeal play situations. Watch at 1:02 thru 1:15 and pay attention/comprehend what's being said, it just confirms what I've been saying on this thread. If this doesn't help, then, well that's on you .. kzitem.info/news/bejne/s6OwzWV8qpeIZ6Q
@MyBiPolarBearMax
2 жыл бұрын
@@jametz66 i wanted to clarify that you dont have to “declare” what you’re appealing (verbally) and you’d be very hard pressed to actually find a case where the appeal was ever verbal. Its always through the actions of the fielder except for some reason in this case
@stockvaluedotcom
2 жыл бұрын
I've been watching baseball for 60 years and have never seen this exact play. I'll bet not one in a hundred players, much less fans, would have known the right solution.
@bobh6728
2 жыл бұрын
Announcers should not comment on rules and have an expert that they can go to.
@AEMoreira81
2 жыл бұрын
It has happened at least twice before, in 1989 and 2009. In 2009, the Dodgers came out of the dugout to say the run should be awarded after all the D’Backs had left fair territory. In 1989, Larry Barnett did it automatically and explained it to the media after the game.
@nickpoole583
2 жыл бұрын
Rare occurrence yes. Knowing the right way to play it? They should. It’s like if a runner in a force out try’s to get in a run down to allow another runner to score, everyone would be scream step on second. This one isn’t nearly that obvious but they should still know take the force out not the tag out, it makes a difference.
@rayray4192
Жыл бұрын
@@nickpoole583 no run can ever score when a force out is the third out, or the third out is at first base before the batter/ runner has touched first base.
@nickpoole583
Жыл бұрын
Yes. That’s the point …. If you opt not to take the force out you allow the opportunity for a runner to score.
@bdlyle
2 жыл бұрын
Great clip with explanations thanks - subscribed.
@FirstBitewithDan
2 жыл бұрын
To some commenters here (especially YOU Damian) who keep saying the umpire made a bad call (or lack thereof), let's remember again that verbiage that an appeal has to be clear and unmistakable. Even if the incidental foot on the bag immediately after tagging the runner was the fielder's way of appealing, it obviously was not clear and unmistakable. Do you know why? Because the umpire did not call the runner out on this unclear and non-appeal. The umpire didn't miss anything. He didn't get it wrong. He simply made no call, which means the appeal was not clear and unmistakable to him; ergo, it wasn't an appeal at all. Do you know what WAS actually VERY CLEAR and unmistakable? The umpire clearly pointing to the tagged runner and declaring him out. At that point, it should have been clear and unmistakable to the fielder that his appeal (if he was even really did intend to appeal in the first place) was not valid, and he should at that point have made a clear and deliberate step on the bag and declare his appeal to the umpire. It's as easy as that. The fielder blew this play, not the umpire. What's more, given that most players in the league probably have no idea that this rule exists, you can still make the case that the fielder didn't know the rule and was confused by the situation, and only stepped on the bag after making the tag because A. his momentum was carrying him in that direction, and / or B. he wanted to make sure the runner he was tagging was really out. Saying he was trying to appeal is giving the fielder a massive benefit of the doubt, and even if he was trying to appeal, he didn't do so clearly and unmistakably. Correct call on the field all the way.
@matrixphijr
2 жыл бұрын
I love the format of these videos because the situational commentary almost makes it sound sarcastic. "Nope, not reviewable" has the same energy as "You idiot."
@rayray4192
Жыл бұрын
They are idiots. Arrogance and ignorance simultaneously. Toxic
@pamsuepmnos2371
Жыл бұрын
Commentators everywhere: confidently wrong about the rules of the game Lin: "I'm about to end this man's whole career."
@williamknudson8414
3 ай бұрын
Not just confidently wrong, but also throwing the umpires under the bus.
@sdmagician76
Жыл бұрын
I think people are getting mixed up by what an "appeal" is. Tagging a runner who did not tag up at his base on a caught line drive or fly ball is an out by rule. There is no appeal happening. Now if the runner makes it to his next bag safely (and is called safe by the ump) after leaving his previous bag early and then the defense tags him while he is standing on his new bag, he is safe. However, the defense now needs to make an appeal to the ump at the base the runner vacated by, before the next pitch, having the pitcher throw the ball to that bag. That initiates the appeal process and the ump will make the call of out (he left early) or safe (he did not). Now, if the runner was not tagged while standing on his new base, he is still out because he is now doubled off of his old base by the appeal throw going to that base. However, if he was not tagged at any point between the play ending and the defense appealing and he realizes he did not tag up he can still retreat to his previous bag and will be safe if he is either not tagged or beats the throw there (but it will be a force-out, he does not need to be tagged). So at 10:18 when the 3rd baseman tags the runner he looks at the ump for the out signal. Because the runner had obviously left 2nd before the catch was made, the umpire correctly made the out call. NO APPEAL WAS MADE. TAGGING A RUNNER FOR AN OUT IS NOT AN APPEAL. Now if the ump had called the runner safe, then the defense would make an official appeal to the 2nd base ump to ask if he left early, which the 2nd base ump would confirm and the runner would be out at that time. Then when the 3rd baseman touches third (which happens a split second later) the ump never makes an out or safe call for the runner that left 3rd, as the inning ended with the runner on 3rd being called out. The 3rd baseman should have realized this when the ump specifically pointed at the runner and signaled "out" and made no other official call. At that point the players needed to get back to their positions and make an official appeal (the only one of the inning and the only one needed) too the 3rd base ump who would have confirmed the runner left early, that the bag was touched, and that the runner is out, now the 4th out of the inning, and that the run did not score. Therefore there would have been 4 outs in one inning to prevent the run from scoring. 3 outs was not enough.
@eboyce24
4 ай бұрын
That's interesting, because if its an out by rule, then no appeal is necessary for the apparent signal the ump made. Adrianza looking to the umpire for an appeal while standing on third would be the most logical signal of intent (besides Bell throwing to third rather than second). Edit - your comment isn't technically correct. Per 5.09(a) 5: Regarding when a runner is out: He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder. He shall not be called out for failure to retouch his base after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an appeal play;
@RobInNJ03
2 жыл бұрын
So, basically, if 3B, tags the runner for out 3, he needs to also alert the 3BUmp that, I am also appealing R3 by stepping on the base, then they get to choose which out sticks? Had he touched 3rd first, and not tagged R2 at all, would that have sufficed?
@alanhess9306
2 жыл бұрын
Yes, he needed to appeal R3, not R2.
@linollieum3742
2 жыл бұрын
YES. Tag the out you want. Step on third alone. Do separate appeals for two players, not to mention the fielder didn't seem to know what he was trying to do anyways since he didn't do anything until he realized people were yelling at him to tag the runner.
@alanhess9306
2 жыл бұрын
@Damian Wrong, Stepping on the bag without making it clear what he was appealing is nothing. All F-5 needed to do was to tell the umpire he was also appealing R3 leaving early. He didn't do that. An appeal must be obvious and unmistakable.
@alanhess9306
2 жыл бұрын
@Damian The umpire was correct. While verbal appeals are not required, the rule does require the defense to make it clear and unmistakable who they are appealing. Your belief that it was clear and unmistakable is nothing more than your opinion, which means nothing. If the umpire genuinely missed the tag of the base, all F-5 needed to do was tell the umpire that he was appealing R3 leaving early. He could still have made the appeal after R2 was called out, but instead the defense left the field, making a further appeal invalid. The defense screwed up, not the umpires.
@alanhess9306
2 жыл бұрын
@Damian The umpire may not have realized initially that F-5 stepping on the base was the intention to appeal. But that that does not negate the fact that the fielder could have gotten the umpire's attention by saying "I'm appealing R3 left early" or something to that effect. F-5 obviously didn't understand he could get the fourth out.
@danielbwroblewski
2 жыл бұрын
They need to fix the announcing by the umpire to the crowd -- if the crowd doesn't understand, you need to explain further. As this video shows, there were many elements to this play, but the only announcement was about whether they have to appeal before leaving the field (#4 in Lindsay's list).
@bernier42
2 жыл бұрын
I wonder how many other rules we were taught in little league are more complex than we were led to believe.
@rayray4192
2 жыл бұрын
When a run scores is an interesting study. This was a timing play. Did R-3 touch home plate or pass by home plate before R-2 was tagged on the appeal? If the third out is recorded before a runner scores the run is not allowed. Whenever the third out is made at first base before the batter/ runner touches first no run can ever score.
@rayray4192
2 жыл бұрын
Here’s another timing play. 1 out, R-1& R-3. Ground ball to first baseman who steps on first base for our #2, and then throws to second where R-1 must be tagged to be out because he is no longer forced out. If a speedy R-3 touches home before R-1 is tagged out the run scores. It’s a timing play.
@rayray4192
2 жыл бұрын
Had a throw from a catcher lodge in a runner’s helmet last week. The rule is immediate dead ball. I’d runner is attempting to advance he’s awarded his advance base. If not, he’s protected into his retreat base. In this case play R-2 was diving into second base on a back pick from the catcher. It’s a lodged ball in player’s uniform or equipment in a throw.
@garygemmell3488
2 жыл бұрын
Actually they are not that complex. The get complex when people start to believe the myths that have sprouted up around the actual rules. In baseball the focus is usually what is happening with the ball. In this play if you simply follow what is happening with the ball and apply the rules (which are clear) as things happen IN ORDER it becomes simple. This is what the umpires did and what looked complicated to everyone else is simply a matter of applying the rules in the order the situations presented themselves
@alanhess9306
Жыл бұрын
@@rayray4192 It's called a time play, not a timing play.
@alexjamesbaker
2 жыл бұрын
Sooo.... Holding the ball and stepping on the bag for 5 seconds isn't unmistakable enough? If there were no outs it clearly would have been a triple play.... Does the player have to shout "hey ump, give me the other one too"? What if he can't use his voice for some reason? Does he need to take two steps away and then take a giant step back onto the bag to show he's tagging off R3?
@bernier42
2 жыл бұрын
Literally all of this could have been avoided if the third baseman had ignored R2 and stepped on B3 deliberately. Unambiguously appealing R3, third out, no run counts.
@sfan2767
2 жыл бұрын
The 4th out rule makes the ignoring R2 irrelevant. He did step on the base deliberately, but the umpire later told him he didn't see that...
@AEMoreira81
2 жыл бұрын
@@sfan2767 - 3B has to make that explicitly clear and say something like: I think he failed to retouch third base.
@kevpotts
2 жыл бұрын
What do you mean “unambiguously appealing r3”? Why did he need to appeal? He stepped on b3 before r3 tagged back up. So r3 should be out. Did the umpires call him safe incorrectly at home and that’s why the nats needed to appeal? So this is all just umpire error that the nats didn’t argue about correctly?
@TDohertyProductions
2 жыл бұрын
@@sfan2767 Yea, there shouldn't need to be an appeal, if the umpires were competent they would have just called it a 4th out immediately and there would be no story.
@alanhess9306
Жыл бұрын
@@TDohertyProductions No, they would not have called R3 out unless the appeal of R3 was unmistakable. All F-5 needed to do was tell the umpire he was appealing R3 leaving early.
@v1dvvatch3r
3 ай бұрын
9:15 The timing of calling the ruling brutal when Davy Martinez comes out, considering a year later, he would call the ruling of the Astros not being out of the baseline brutal
@danielpatrick9540
2 жыл бұрын
Shouldn't the umpires explain the play? They're mic'd up but only announce the rules check
@Niel2760
2 жыл бұрын
You might be right but how the hell do you explain it concisely? I doubt many fans would understand even if they did.
@davidlocke3477
2 жыл бұрын
Ed Hochuli managed to do it in football, so follow his example. A minute long explanation of what the ruling is would be better than no explanation.
@Niel2760
2 жыл бұрын
@@davidlocke3477 lol I’m not sure many people would want umpires to follow his example. He got blasted for loving the sound of his own voice.
@davidlocke3477
2 жыл бұрын
He was (is?) also a lawyer, so it's no surprise that he liked to talk that much.
@Niel2760
2 жыл бұрын
@@davidlocke3477 I loved Guns but he wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea.
@eclectic232
2 жыл бұрын
I love Lindsay.
@MrMaelstrom07
3 ай бұрын
"Line drive was ruled caught; batter is out. By tagging the runner, Minnesota appealed that the runner left 2nd before the catch. Runner was ruled out. Since Minnesota failed to properly appeal the runner leaving 3rd early before leaving the field, they lose the ability to appeal. The run scores."
@asirgo
2 жыл бұрын
Is there any previous instance of the fourth out rule that can be referenced to?
@LindsayImber1
2 жыл бұрын
A very similar play to this one occurred in 2009 and the defense failed to appeal the fourth out in that one, too. www.closecallsports.com/2014/01/uefl-series-baseball-rules-in-real.html
@AEMoreira81
2 жыл бұрын
This kind of play has happened at least twice before…in 1989 and 2009. Like this, those involved time plays.
@McClimber234
Жыл бұрын
There are a few 4th out videos
@voncornhole
3 ай бұрын
There have also been 4th outs that get in front of a possible challenge overturning the 3rd out
@atkravitz
2 жыл бұрын
More baseball fans should follow this channel.
@alanhess9306
Жыл бұрын
Baseball fans should also pay attention when the rule is explained.
@mikes805
2 жыл бұрын
Per the rules, what constitutes the team being “off the field” as referenced here? Is a team considered to have left the field when the first player takes one step into the dugout? Or when the last player takes the last step into the dugout? Or some arbitrary moment in between?
@taustin266
2 жыл бұрын
This was addressed in the video. The rule book states that the defense has left the field when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory.
@mikes805
2 жыл бұрын
@@taustin266 Thank you, I must have missed that part. So, that’s when all players have all feet in foul territory. If one person had at least one foot in fair territory, they have not yet all left the field?
@santaclause3487
2 жыл бұрын
@@mikes805 well it shouldn’t t even apply here for a couple reasons. Cause they appealed by stepping on the base for 5 secs after the tag. And say if that didn’t count, Shelton ran in the field arguing it wasn’t caught technically during live play cause the inning was completely over. So the nats were to wait for his argument to be over before the appeal again? I think that’s what Martinez should have argued after.
@bosser15
2 жыл бұрын
@@mikes805 in most plays, at least one player is already standing in foul territory (the catcher at a minimum).
@danmertz92
2 жыл бұрын
@@santaclause3487 agreed. The tagging of R2 ended the inning, and before they left the field, the tagging of 3rd base was the “4th out appeal”.
@kristopherwagner4173
2 жыл бұрын
This was a great video. Thank you. There are zero issues with the umpiring here, they got it right on a very confusing play that they don’t have access to replay. I’m a little bit smarter now thanks to you guys. Thanks again
@sfan2767
2 жыл бұрын
Adriannza (F5) "said the third-base umpire told me he didn’t see me when I touched the base, so that’s why I think they made that call". Whether or not that was an appeal is a debatable point, but either way the umpire did not do a perfect job if he missed the fact that a fielder stepped on a base that was relevant to the play.
@rickhaavisto9023
2 жыл бұрын
@@sfan2767 No, it isnt relevant because it wasnt an unmistakable appeal
@rickhaavisto9023
2 жыл бұрын
@Damian No, “stepping on the bag” doesn’t stop the run from scoring. The appeal needs to be unmistakable.
@rickhaavisto9023
2 жыл бұрын
@Damian I can easily make the argument that stepping on the base was his momentum carried over after the tag was applied. If I can easily make that argument, then it isn’t unmistakable.
@eboyce24
2 жыл бұрын
@@rickhaavisto9023 i can easily make the argument that he tagged the runner to keep him on the base and stop his own momentum. Why was the tag obvious but him stutter-stepping to indicate separate actions (rather than tagging and touching simultaneously), placing his foot on the bag, and spinning his foot around on the base after the first appeal result and revalidating with the ump not obvious? Both Adrianza and Bell looked at the lead runner before getting the ball over to third. In any other play, doing that and intentionally putting your foot on the base and keeping it there would be sufficient, because multiple appeals can be made simultaneously. The ump's post-game explanation goes into their focus on the order of the events, and yet by rule the order of the appeals doesn't matter, nor does the issue of the Nats leaving the field (with both the pre-exit and post-exit demonstration of intent). The only thing that matters is whether the player makes an unmistakable appeal, which according to the Nats they certainly did (but only realized the umps had not validated it after the umps huddled about whether it was a catch at all and said a run scored), and according to the umps they claimed they didn't see the appeal at all and couldn't review because the third base umpire "didn't see him on the base" according to various Nats players and Martinez relaying umpire commentary, despite him being quite visible on the base for an extended period of time.
@eboyce24
2 жыл бұрын
I'm not sure how you can construe Adrianza staring after the lead runner, immediately looking to the umpire for the appeal, running to the bag, tagging a runner standing on the bag, stepping on the bag, keeping your foot on the bag, getting one appeal, turning and looking back to the thrower (who also looked to the lead runner before throwing to third) while keeping your foot on the bag, after having already glanced at the lead runner, keeping the tag and your foot applied while glancing back at the umpire who has already started walking off despite the fielder still standing on the bag clearly indicating his movement is intentional and not a "wierd little leg stretch" or "a superstitious OCD motion" or "just liking to feel rubber under the cleats sometimes", waiting there after the initial single appeal is granted but (apparently, in retrospect) the second appeal being denied, is "incidentally putting your foot on the bag and insufficient to represent an appeal"... which the Nats only find out isn't granted when the umpires, independently of the initial appeal(s), indicate that the run scores. If the stare and standing directly ON THE BASE with someone else present on it, twisting your foot to indicate that the contact is intentional, believing your appeal for the lead runner is denied, and then confronting umpires about the nature of the appeals only to be told that you can't appeal something (that you believe you've already appealed) after leaving the field despite the very rule you cited indicating the fielder's choice of simultaneous 4th out appeals to get the better one (which probably is what confused Adrianza since he did indicate an appeal to the lead runner in multiple ways), is still "incidental, unclear appeal" despite both runners leaving well before the ball was caught and anyone can see that, which would explain literally any action taken by anyone on the field during that sequence, then i don't know what to tell you. Bell threw to third. That should be your first indication of intent, since the runner from 2nd was practically on *third and so threw behind the runner so as to not hit him...and he knew he had caught it so it wasn't going to be a tag out. Bell throws to third, Adrianza stands on third while ensuring the runner doesn't go anywhere. There was additional footage of Bell seemingly calling for a separate appeal or at least adding additional commentary after the initial appeal verdict while still on the field, but that was apparently wholly ignored, and the umpires began waving the rest of the umpire crew onto the field as to indicate a review process. I couldn't tell where Bell was pointing but someone said he was pointing at a fielder on 2nd who was waiting there for another appeal, but Adrianza indicated they already had 3 outs, and didn't get the 4th. Adrianza later said that the umpire eventually told him he didn't see him standing on the base despite him clearly standing on the base. Clearly his actions were "mistakeable" but only from the outcome. You can't appeal an appeal, so what else is Adrianza supposed to do, besides sit down on the base and refuse to leave, or say, in the thick of it, "sir, are you absolutely sure you don't want to give me the out since i don't know when the runner crossed home exactly or even whether you've ruled the catch a catch? I'm standing on the bag. See? This is me--standing on the bag. Notice me doing this? I'm not sure which out i can get here, which is why i am staring into your soul and both standing on the bag and applying the tag simultaneously and you have a clear view of all of it...as opposed to the guy who threw the ball to third presumably to get the appeal since otherwise he would have looked to second for the force out. You saw me stare at the lead runner, then at you, then tag the base, right? I'm glad you gave us the one out...which isn't what we're looking for exactly unless that's your ruling, but i mean, you're the ump. I know we can't appeal appeals, right? I figure i'll get the better of the two outs...right? That's how this works, even after we leave the field, since i'm pretty sure if you don't think he left early this will get sent to the tape anyway. I respect you too much to show you up. There are rules, you know?"
@wyssmaster
2 жыл бұрын
Holy shit you're so mad lol All Adrianza had to do was step on the base and either point to the lead runner, or tell the umpire "he left third base early," and the run doesn't score. Looking at the umpire isn't obviously an appeal for R3 when you're also tagging R2; it looks like he's confirming that the umpire is calling R2 out. "B-b-b-b-but he stepped on the bag! What else does he need to do?!?" Literally anything to call attention to his apparent intentions.
@eboyce24
2 жыл бұрын
@@wyssmaster uh huh.
@vincent412l7
Жыл бұрын
But why is it a legal run? If there were no outs it would have been a triple play. (The runner (R3) never tagged up and was out when the ball tagged third?)
@farmerbrownie
2 жыл бұрын
I don’t fully understand this. But from what I do know is you can’t advance on a fly ball if it’s caught without tagging up.. any rule/s making it to where you can are dumb and they need to get rid of them… the baseball field is not civil court.. plays like this should be simple.. ball caught no runners tagged up.. second runner out.. run doesn’t count because the runner did not go back and touch 3rd
@sinnedjuk4488
2 жыл бұрын
The d has to ask for appeal.if a runner misses a base on a homerun the d has to ask umpire for ruling,umpires do not say to the d he missed bag hitter is out.
@alexramos6435
Жыл бұрын
The 3rd base umpire missed the runner on 3rd leaving early. He got the call right on the 2nd base runner but not the 3rd base runner
@McClimber234
Жыл бұрын
Umps got it all correct. Nats didn't make a correct appeal for runner that scored. The video explained it all.
@swolf2004
Жыл бұрын
Ok, so let me see if I understand this correctly. Let's suppose there is a runner on first with nobody out. A fly ball is caught, but the runner goes on contact and does not tag. If the fielding team just throws the ball to the pitcher who pitches to the next batter, and they do not tag first base, the inning continues with the runner on second and one out effectively as if the runner stole second before the play.
@ericwinegarner8928
2 жыл бұрын
tl;dr, so sorry if this has already been asked/covered: I'm not understanding why an appeal is even part of the conversation, and here's my understanding of the situation: The play starts with one out, Park on 2nd (R2) and Suwinski on 3rd (R3). Hayes lines out for out #2, as called on the field by the 1st base umpire. R2 & R3 are now at their own risk, but need to tag up before they advance up or risk being put out prior to returning to their respective bases (unless, of course, the fielding team allows them to advance without making the effort to put them out). The moment Adrianza tags R2 (who is on 3rd base), he's out, for the 3rd out of the inning, and whatever happens with R3 doesn't matter, because the inning is over. If R3 had tagged up AND scored PRIOR to R2 being put out, THEN the run should count as he would have scored legally prior to the 3rd out. Am I making sense at all? It just feels like there was a fundamental error on the part of the umpires here. I look forward to replies!
@vonskyme9133
2 жыл бұрын
The failire to tag up does not inherently prevent a runner advancing. It is quite legal to be on first, not tag up after the batter is caught, round the bases while failing to touch second or third and then jump clear over home plate, and unless the defense appeals one of your many baserunning infractions you will be awarded the run. It may or may not be a good rule, but it is the current one. In this case, because he crossed home before R2 was out for not tagging up (which is an appeal and thus a time play, not a force) he has legally scored unless the defense appeals against him specifically.
@ericwinegarner8928
2 жыл бұрын
@@vonskyme9133 Right, I kind of forgot the umpire crew's passive responsibility regarding baserunners. Basically, it's the defensive team's responsibility to call out of a runner fails to tag up or misses a base (on appeal), and the umpire's job to confirm that. I really think that should change. The players are there to play a game, not enforce the rules. If an umpire sees a baserunning infraction, they should call it out in the moment, much like they do for interference.
@eboyce24
4 ай бұрын
Looks good to me. The only issue is whether R2 was tagged before R3 crossed home, in which case the inning would end before the run scores. In this case, the appeal at third should have been the question of whether R3 left early OR whether the tag on R2 preceded R3 scoring. Neither of those appeals apparently happened. The Nats left the field before the umpires made their determination of whether the run scored, but Adrianza had technically made the appeal at third before he left, with the umpire walking away after signalling the out on R2, leaving all other appeals unanswered. Adrianza remained on third as the umpire walked away, twisting his foot on the bag as the runner also left, and the Nats cleared the field as the umps conferred. On the play, the first base umpire signalled the line out for the second out, and the third base umpire signalled the tag out for the third out, but none of the umps registered the appeal that Adrianza made by staring at the umpire while standing on the base after the throw to third. Edit - 5.09(a) 5: Regarding when a runner is out: He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder. He shall not be called out for failure to retouch his base after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an appeal play;
@jfejapan2829
2 жыл бұрын
I'm OK with the explanation (totally ignoring what the Washington announcers were saying)... however, let me ask it another way because it seems like this is neither a timing play nor an appeal situation. When the line drive is caught without touching the ground, then a throw goes behind a runner who did not tag, that runner is forced out when the defense touches the bag he left. So, regardless of whether R2 is out by the applied tag, R3 is out because of the foot touching the base he left early. Please explain then, why this even needs an appeal - the ball was still live and they got 4 outs. I understand they're counting the run because they're calling it a timing play, but it's actually a force play for the 3rd out.
@vonskyme9133
2 жыл бұрын
It's not a force play, failure to tag up is always an appeal play (ad also a time play - a force play is explicitly only when a runner is forced to advance, not return). In the scenario you gave, throwing the ball behind the player and touching the bag, that's an unmistakable appeal because there is absolutely no other reason to even throw the ball there. In this case, however, an argument can be made that he only stepped on third as part of general principles rather than as a specific, unmistakable appeal that he is trying to say R3 did not tag up. That's enough in this case (even though you could ALSO argue he did appeal).
@jfejapan2829
2 жыл бұрын
@@vonskyme9133 Thanks for your well-worded explanation. Just by way of closure... it seems that if F3 had thrown to the now-vacated 2B, or if F5 had ignored the runner and stepped on 3B, either of those things would have ended the inning without a run scoring. But, because F5 tagged the runner (and R3 already crossed home plate), they still need to appeal. This also makes that 3B umpire look really good because he pointed to R2 and called him out.
@vonskyme9133
2 жыл бұрын
@@jfejapan2829 if F5 had ignored the runner and stepped on the bag only (effectively appealing ONLY for R3, not R2-who-happens-to-be-on-3), then yes no run scores. Throwing to second is the same appeal as tagging R2 with the glove, so if they did that and the ball arrives after R3 crosses the plate they still need to appeal at third to stop the run.
@bobh6728
3 ай бұрын
It is amazing that the announcers and managers think the umpires don’t know the rules. The umpires miss a lot of judgement calls, but very few rules. The announcers probably get paid a lot more than umpires, so maybe they should go to classes to learn the rules that they get paid to comment on.
@kelseywhitlatch173
2 жыл бұрын
That last pitch btw was a strike btw. Mostly a good video but you sound like the Announcers a few times. Talking about things like they were wrong when the pirates broadcast had it spot on.
@PNW4130
2 жыл бұрын
scoring a run on a triple play, pretty fancy
@TCizauskas
2 жыл бұрын
So, in effect, the 3rd-base ump made two, maybe three, incorrect calls: he called R1 safe at home and scoring (even though R1 failed to tag up and then left the field of play) when initially he should have signaled nothing and he missed the appeal move by the third baseman. Or what am I seeing wrong?
@vonskyme9133
2 жыл бұрын
The appeal is not unmistakable, in my mind, and thus not validly made (although I admit it's arguable). If no appeal is made the runner scoring is the correct call, tagup or no tagup.
@TCizauskas
2 жыл бұрын
@@vonskyme9133 Open for debate I'll grant you, but do you disagree that the umps missed the non-tag-ups AND that the 3rd-base ump should have not signaled the run scoring until the play was dead?
@vonskyme9133
2 жыл бұрын
@@TCizauskas I'm not sure on the scoring signal (edit: actually, on rewatching I can't see any run scoring signal while live, but run scoring signals are required on time plays - no idea on live or dead requirements. What timestamp do you see one?), but I do disagree on the non tagups. They saw them, but they literally aren't allowed to do anything about them without an appeal. A batter who leaves first, never tags up, rounds all bases without touching any of them, including home plate, has legitimately scored under the rules unless the defense appeals the baserunning infractions. The rule may or may not be fair or make a lot of sense, but that is the current rule.
@thexen3120
Жыл бұрын
Super late to the party. First, MLB should hire Lin to be their expert rules commentator. Second, this play is as rare as it gets, buried in obscurity and this is truly intriguing. I don't blame broadcast personnel not knowing the minutia of every rule, so it makes sense to have an expert. Having former umpires only gets people saying they are only siding with the umps. Lin would crush it on MLB!
@QuovatisPS
2 жыл бұрын
The fielder intentionally stepped on third, but I get it by rule he didn't do everything correctly (indicate appeal on R3). Pretty silly way to get a run though.
@Renegade605
2 жыл бұрын
That's baseball for you. Some real weird stuff happens from time to time.
@michaelfalkner1186
2 жыл бұрын
And didn't he point to the 3BU to indicate that that was for both outs? And the other problem I have with it is how you can nullify an out like that and score a run -- that just looks awfully cheap and exploitable.
@Renegade605
2 жыл бұрын
@@michaelfalkner1186 they didn't nullify any out. R3 was never out.
@santaclause3487
2 жыл бұрын
But that’s assuming the umps can read his mind. Like the umps thought they all didn’t even know the rule, htf can the 3rd baseman. Stepping on the base and starring at the ump for 5 secs was good enough for an appeal. Like if u line into a dp, the fielders step on the base but don’t tell the ump what they are doing every time it happened. U don’t have to announce it verbally. The ump even signaled out after he stepped on the base. Even before they could figure what was going on Shelton ran on the field, technically during live play? Saying the ball hit the ground I guess. And he distracted the umps attention while the nats were waking off. Mlb umps are awful, it’s like they know they are getting replaced in a year by k zone and don’t care. home plate ump probably called the worst game ever.
@noahdecoteau6381
2 жыл бұрын
@@santaclause3487 he signals out for the runner that is being tagged. It's a good thing you aren't an umpire because anything beyond balls and strikes seems too complicated for you
@Marktastic11
2 жыл бұрын
This one made my brain hurt. So If I understand correctly, batter is out for out 2, they throw to third and tag R2 for out 3, but the runner scored before the tag at 3rd so the run counts, and the umps judgement is that there was no obvious appeal on R3 so the run counts, and because the team left the field they can't appeal R3. IMO 3rd Base Ump is on the hook for this one for the low situational awareness (missing the foot on 3rd to appeal R3). His body language was super nonchalant as if it were an easy routine double up call.
@santaclause3487
2 жыл бұрын
Exactly. He stood on the base for a day. They were waiting to see if he caught it or not imo. But good enough for an appeal. Cause Shelton comes barreling out of the dugout saying the ball hit the ground. Right there should extend the Nats time to appeal or challenge the play.
@ingiford175
2 жыл бұрын
I thought if you had to tag up, you had to do that before you run in for a score?
@ericwildfong
2 жыл бұрын
@@ingiford175 Technically yes, but if you miss a base (or don't tag up) the defence has to appeal that you did otherwise it stands. U3 only signalled R2 out and made no call on the attempted appeal of R3 and since R3 crossed home before the appeal on R2 for out 3 it stands. Nats blew their chance to appeal by leaving the field, there was no misleading signals from U3 as there was only ever one out signal with a direct point at the runner.
@ericwildfong
2 жыл бұрын
@@ingiford175 Technically yes, but if you miss a base (or don't tag up) the defence has to appeal that you did otherwise it stands. U3 only signalled R2 out and made no call on the attempted appeal of R3 and since R3 crossed home before the appeal on R2 for out 3 it stands. Nats blew their chance to appeal by leaving the field, there was no misleading signals from U3 as there was only ever one out signal with a direct point at the runner.
@ericwildfong
2 жыл бұрын
@@santaclause3487 Nats didn't lose any time to appeal the play cause he came out of the dugout. Play was basically over anyway. Nats lost their chance to appeal when they willingly left the field.
@MrGpc1970
2 жыл бұрын
If the third baseman had stepped on the bag first before tagging the runner, would the run have counted anyways because he crossed the plate first ?
@bernier42
2 жыл бұрын
If the third baseman made it clear he was appealing R3 first, R3 would be out and no run would count. R2 would be irrelevant at that point. Amazing how this all could have been avoided.
@jasonlockhart3168
2 жыл бұрын
I always thought that appealing a base on a no retouch was a "force" out. So, if I am wrong, it wouldn't have made a difference if Bell threw to 2nd base and appealed there to save the run?
@AEMoreira81
2 жыл бұрын
No difference. You have to appeal retouching third.
@vonskyme9133
2 жыл бұрын
A force play is only the case when a runner is forced to advance, not return. (The rulebook, as clearly worded as ever, defines it as 'a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner').
@eboyce24
4 ай бұрын
If the ball had reached second base before R3 had crossed home, the run would not have counted. Bell saw the lead runner (R3) and threw to third, with Adrianza both tagging and holding the runner and standing on third. However, the only appeal that was registered was the tag on R2 while R2 was standing on third, after the run scored, resulting in the run counting. By rule, however: 5.09(a) 5: Regarding when a runner is out: He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder. He shall not be called out for failure to retouch his base after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an appeal play; If the appeal was registered, it would be the third out by the preceding (lead) runner, and R3 would be out, with no run scored.
@yeahbuddy048
2 жыл бұрын
Can you explain why the runner was sent back during the Angels Vs White Sox 5th Inning, Wade was sent back to first on a 3-1 count because batter made contact on back swing, it wouldn’t batter be considered out?
@linollieum3742
2 жыл бұрын
Maybe Lindsay will cover it, but if I remember correctly from the prior videos, with backswing interference, the runner is sent back. Batter's interference is separate from backswing interference, and has to involve interfering by stepping in front of the catcher on his throw. Batter's interference results in the batter being out. Backswing interference just sends the runner back.
@yeahbuddy048
2 жыл бұрын
@@linollieum3742 makes sense, thanks for explaining!
@CloseCallSports
2 жыл бұрын
If this was a backswing contact situation, here's a video on the subject by the prior guy: kzitem.info/news/bejne/xKmFvYpuZquhg6Q
@kevpotts
2 жыл бұрын
How can r3 score if he didn’t tag up? I understand that r2 was tagged for the 3rd out so had r3 tagged up and scored it would have counted. But he didn’t tag up… he just ran home. Why did that run count?
@vonskyme9133
2 жыл бұрын
You are 100% allowed to run home without tagging up, or not step on any base on the way around, and will only be called out if the defense specifically appeals that you made an infraction. The umpire won't (and by rule can't) call it on his own initiative.
@danbev9313
2 жыл бұрын
Great explanation on timing plays and appeals. Excellent
@birdzilla106
2 жыл бұрын
How does the fact that the run scored nullify the fact that the runner on third left early. Shouldn't he have to return to the base or be called out when the third baseman steps on the bag, regardless of what the runner on second base did? "Caught on the fly so no one was forced to advance"? How about no one is allowed to advance before returning to the base after the ball is caught?
@vonskyme9133
2 жыл бұрын
Because a failure to tagup us an appeal play. Unless the defense appeals specifically you are deemed to have advanced - in a hypothetical where a player on first rounds (but does not touch) second before the ball is caught, continues to round third (but again does not touch or retreat to tag up) and then swan dives clear over home, unless the defense appeals he will have scored. The rule may or may not be fair, but that is the rule.
@birdzilla106
2 жыл бұрын
@@vonskyme9133 I understand that. I guess my point was that the third base umpire should have called both runners out, once the runner from second was tagged and the third baseman intentionally tagged the base with his foot. How was this not just a replay overturn of the call?
@vonskyme9133
2 жыл бұрын
@@birdzilla106 because the umpires deemed it wasn't a clear an unmistakable appeal on R3 for lleaving early, probably because he's holding the tag on R2 the whole time. Even deliberately putting your foot on the bag isn't enough if you aren't sure why you're doing it. An argument can certainly be made that he intended to appeal both, but the requirement is 'unmistakable', which is less clear on the footage.
@garykain4448
2 жыл бұрын
Clearly, there need to be more rules in order to clarify these rulings, that seems like the obvious solution.
@cboyes1
2 жыл бұрын
I understand how this is the correct application of the rules but I’m not sure I understand how this is the right outcome. It’s quite clear watching live that the fielder both tags the runner and the base. It seems ridiculous to require players, while the play is going on, to know the intricacies of the appeal rules and know the tag the base before the runner.
@tmlms1313
2 жыл бұрын
It seems ridiculous that a player who gets paid millions of dollars to play a game doesn't know the rules of that game.
@azrefereeii1806
2 жыл бұрын
It don’t matter , these are outs and should not require a replay. They can get together and say. “It’s a catch “ and the rest is in the books. This should not even be a conversation after that.
@vonskyme9133
2 жыл бұрын
The problem is, they're only outs on appeal. They're not force outs, and the umpire is not allowed to give them out without an unmistakable appeal for that specific runner.
@sinnedjuk4488
2 жыл бұрын
What if he threw to 2nd for 3rd out ,runner scores without appeal also,no.
@rayray4192
Жыл бұрын
Broadcaster: “ I have no idea what’s going on.” A man with no idea what’s happening pronounces judgment upon an mlb umpire crew.
@joe2lank
2 жыл бұрын
Based upon what I saw here I’m going to disagree with Lindsay. The fielder clearly stepped on the base which should have gotten the scoring runner out since the scoring runner didn’t tag up after the catch. The umpire missed the fact the fielder touched the base and that is the fault of the umpire.
@SpaceShot
4 ай бұрын
"this is brutal".. yep .. As usual the incompetence is the broadcasters is brutal
@markdeans7139
2 жыл бұрын
The 3rd baseman clearly stepped on the base and then intentionally held it there for other umpires to see. It was not a miss step or unintentional step on the base. You are not correct in your interpretation while the ball was in play. So fourth out can still come into play while they were on the field.
@justinbuford4684
2 жыл бұрын
But did he say anything about appealing that R3 left early? No. BY RULE the appeal must be intentional.
@markdeans7139
2 жыл бұрын
@@justinbuford4684 , 99% of the time that is for when the pitcher steps on the rubber and then steps off to put the ball back in play. The ball was live and he stepped on the base. You don't verbalize it while the play is going. However, if you are saying the play is dead when the umpire called the 3rd out by tag, then it's possible the play is no longer live. However, according to Davey's post game interview the umpires told him they never saw the 3rd baseman tag the bag with his foot. So, it comes down to, they weren't watching...... Again....
@w9awx1
5 ай бұрын
Perhaps it is time for a class for all broadcasters in the rules of baseball.
@lsittig
2 жыл бұрын
Sorry, you need to cite a rule that interprets “unmistakably” as you construed it. Players don’t have to explain to an umpire why they are stepping on a base, they just do it and that completes the action. Fielders don’t even explain their actions when they appeal, they just do the action. The defender stepped on third base while the play was still live, so R3 was unmistakably put out by the action. You are so good at this, so I hope you’ll comment as to how you interpreted “unmistakably “ as you did.
@LindsayImber1
2 жыл бұрын
I’m using the dictionary definition. From Oxford, for unmistakable: “not able to be mistaken for anything else; very distinctive.” Thus, if the umpire mistook it, it wasn’t unmistakable.
@bosser15
2 жыл бұрын
@@LindsayImber1 not only does the player have to make an unmistakable gesture, but he also needs to explain the preceding play to the umpire, recount what has happened up to this point, and also what specifically he is appealing in relation to aforementioned play? Seems kind of absurd, and that has never been how appeals. This umpire just didn’t know what was going on, which isn’t his fault (he’s human). Still a wrong call.
@Stevo2557
2 жыл бұрын
So my argument here... if tagging R2 is an obvious appeal that he left early.... how is stepping on 3rd not an obvious appeal that he left early?
@JosephJamesScott
2 жыл бұрын
That's what I was thinking.
@Renegade605
2 жыл бұрын
If he had intended to appeal R3, why didn't he say so when R2 was called out? For that matter, if he had intended to appeal R3, why did he bother to tag R2 at all?
@JosephJamesScott
2 жыл бұрын
@@Renegade605 if there had been no outs would they have still claimed he didn't intend to appeal R3?
@Renegade605
2 жыл бұрын
@@JosephJamesScott yes. 100% The only difference is the players wouldn't have left the field and would have been able to appeal R3 still.
@bosser15
2 жыл бұрын
You have to stomp on the bag and stare at the umpire crosseyed for it to be recognized as an appeal.
@indiansfan444444
2 жыл бұрын
There is one big problem with how his play went down and the rules in general. I agree with just about everything that he intended to tag the runner first for the 3rd out and would need to appeal the out for the runner that scored but I hate judgement calls in situations like his. I can understand why some might not think it is a clear appeal but if you watch the fielder after stepping on the base and looking at the umpire he turns back to look at something in the field. He doesn’t turn and immediately step off the base he actually picks up his foot and turns it so it never leaves the base then walks away a couple seconds later. To me the fact he made sure to stay on the base after a 3rd out call should show it was intentional that he is stepping on the base. Now the problem isn’t the judgment call but the explanation. They interviewed people after the game and Wegner did explain things like you did but according to Dave Martinez the umpire said that he never touched the base so there was no appeal which is blatantly wrong. In this case either the manager is lying or the umpires are completely blind because he was on the base for around 5 seconds. There is an easy solution to this mess though. The umpires wear microphones now so they can announce what is being challenged and the results. One of the announcers said something about announcing what was being discussed so there was less confusion but I would take it a step further. When a manager comes or coach comes out to argue a play they should turn them on so that the argument and explanation for the call is heard by everyone not just the result. Of course this would require everyone to keep the language clean but they already ask fans to not use foul language at the park and these are grown men that shouldn’t be using that kind of language at their job anyway.
@johannesney2132
2 жыл бұрын
I think the fact alone that everyone is trying to interpret whether or not the 3rd baseman stepped on the base intentionally shows that it is not an unmistakable appeal, as the rule requires him to make (Rule 5.09(c) Comment). If its not clear to everyone, its not unmistakable. We have the umpire pointing at R2 while calling him out, if the defense wanted to also appeal R3 someone would or should have noticed that only one of the two Runners were called out. The 3rd baseman could also have pointed at his foot (while touching 3rd) or at the runner/towards home plate, that would lift any doubt on intent. Teams on this level should either know or practice how to make propper appeals. I generally also like the idea of having coach requests, arguments etc. being broadcast on microphone, I think the newly implemented mics are underused. But from lip reading and the occasional hot mike we do know that foul language is fairly common. Alternatively coaches will remain polite until the mic is turned off and then mutter something under their breath, resulting in an ejection where everyone believes the coach to be innocent. Another option to lessen confusion for fans would be to have commentators with better rules knowledge. If umpires had to explain every wonky play, game durations would go up more.
@CastlegarGlenn
2 жыл бұрын
But there were 3 out. So when could the Nats have appealed if they can't appeal unless the ball is in play? The 3B made 2 appeals when he tagged the runner and then completely intentionally stepped on third. Look at his footwork and that stutter step. He did appeal twice, the umps missed it. That was the only legal time they could appeal, and they did.
@vonskyme9133
2 жыл бұрын
If the umps missed it, by definition it's not unmistakable. That's the argument, and why the rule is worded that way - what he needed to do was something like point at home (said first in my initial reply for some reason) and say 'he didn't tag up'. Edit: to be clear, I think the rule got the wrong result and common sense should see it changed, but umpires have to follow the letter of the rules if they can.
@TheDjcarter1966
2 жыл бұрын
The appeal has to be clear if he would have point at the runner at home or said hey what about the runner going home as he tagged the base, but you can tell he is confused and is tagging the base as part of his play on the runner not to make an appeal on the other runner.
@Renegade605
2 жыл бұрын
He shuffled his feet because he was moving and needed to slow down while keeping balanced, no more than that.
@santaclause3487
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDjcarter1966 that doesn’t make sense. When somebody lines into a dp, they don’t point at the runner indicating that’s why they are stepping on the base.
@santaclause3487
2 жыл бұрын
I think they were confused as to whether it was caught or not. Pirates coach running on the field during live play is the reason why this happened.
@jeff19554
2 жыл бұрын
Only the pirates could be involved in a play like this
@M747022
2 жыл бұрын
this is the correct ruling to a dumb rule. he stepped on the base to make sure both runners were out. having to say it out loud "I'm appealing" is silly and serves no purpose.
@yieldnodes8555
2 жыл бұрын
The run scored before the third out ...all he had to do was at first ...step on third bag,,,
@retpada
2 жыл бұрын
So you are saying from now on, defenses should wait until the umpires clarify that three outs have been recorded. The runner on third is out. It shouldn’t be an appeal. The umpire blew the call.
@jametz66
2 жыл бұрын
OMG .... the psycho blab going on here. Did you watch the video?!?!? Obviously not ... NO UMPIRE SCREWED UP HERE .... ZERO, ZILCH, NADA ... textbook, by the book, correct ruling.
@rgsron7857
2 жыл бұрын
Alot of confusion on a ground rule double.
@craigdupree1687
2 жыл бұрын
Can't protest either.
@CafeLibrado
2 жыл бұрын
On this season of umpire ball, the crew holds up the game for 10 minutes, makes needless calls, and fails to explain their call despite now having a microphone. Why are the nats being punished for running off the field when the umpire clearly signaled out #3? Are we now supposed to hang out on the field after each half inning to make sure no unclear calls are made without being announced? That’ll be great for pace of play
@Tickenest
2 жыл бұрын
It is incumbent upon the defense to recognize this situation and ensure that the fourth out is properly recorded. The fielder making the play at R3 did not "unmistakably" appeal on R3. He definitely did on R2 (as the video stated) with his tag of the player (because it is obvious on this play why the fielder is tagging R2 while he's standing on third base), but he was so timid in his actions on the play (he didn't even seem sure at first that he was supposed to do anything at all) that you can't claim that his touch of third base was "unmistakably" an intended appeal.
@alonzobean1
2 жыл бұрын
Triple play. Hitter out on catch....both runners out by virtue of not tagging up as third baseman tagged third causing the runner going home to be out and tagging the runner on third causing him to be out because he had no legal right to the bag because he also did not tag up.....triple play.
@rickyoung9779
2 жыл бұрын
The rare “apparent 4th out”. Simple, properly appeal to third (pitcher comes set, steps off and throw to third) for apparent 4th out to prevent run.
@Tickenest
2 жыл бұрын
That plan would not work in this situation because the third out was recorded (the tag out of R2). Therefore, there won't be an opportunity for the pitcher to throw to third base to make the appeal. Because the third out was recorded, the appeal has to happen before the defense leaves the field.
@rickyoung9779
2 жыл бұрын
@@Tickenest not true. That is exactly how it works, which is why it’s called the apparent 4th out. The problem here, as outlined in the video, is the Nats left the field thus ending their chance to do so.
@Tickenest
2 жыл бұрын
@@rickyoung9779 You wrote "properly appeal to third (pitcher comes set, steps off and throw to third)", right? I'm saying...the pitcher won't have the chance to do that because the third out was recorded so there isn't going to be a next batter up in the inning. They could still appeal to third base for the fourth out, but not in the manner that you described.
@aspireahead8388
2 жыл бұрын
If this wasn't 2 of the worst teams in baseball, this situation would have been an epic disaster... If this would have happened in the Yankees-Astros series, it would have been front page news lol...
@OverReaction154
Жыл бұрын
Looks simple to me, ball was caught, runner on second going to third is tagged out and the runner on third going home is out because the fielder touched third with the ball before he could return. I am no expert, but I did play little league. I see, the refs got it wrong, and the appeal is the question here? I guess?
@Tickenest
Жыл бұрын
The appeal must be "unmistakable." Now, on a normal tag up double play, the appeal *is* unmistakable because there's only one possible appeal that the defense could be making, appealing that the runner who started at the base being thrown to left the base early. But in this case, there are *two* possible appeals that the defense could be making-the appeal on R2 and the appeal on R3. In this case, it is the responsibility of the defender to make an "unmistakable" appeal. His first action is to tag the runner. That action is an unmistakable appeal (because you're tagging a runner who's clearly standing on a base so you're not trying to claim an ordinary out for tagging a runner.) The defender definitely touches the base, but he does so after the tag and he doesn't (in the opinion of the umpire and of Lin and of many of the commenters here) make an unmistakable appeal. In my personal opinion, the third baseman isn't 100% sure of what he's doing here. He doesn't look confident about his actions and he certainly doesn't verbalize an appeal on R3. If he had, it would have been given.
@OverReaction154
Жыл бұрын
@@Tickenest I read all of that, very informative about the appeal process and I agree the officials applied the appeals rule correctly. I just assumed they were also officiating tag ups as that is the meat and potatoes of this play after the ball was ruled a catch.
@titansvolz
2 жыл бұрын
I'm totally confused....
@roadmaster3531
2 жыл бұрын
This does not matter... If there was no out on the play it would of been a triple play... It does not matter if he touched the base or the runner due to the runner on third not tagging up on a fly ball... The explanation is great, but does not apply to this... There never should of been an appeal it should have never needed to be appealed... The fact that there was no valid tag up on a fly ball the bag or the runner at 3rd could be tagged as an out... This was a complete circus by the umpires
@vonskyme9133
2 жыл бұрын
Failing to tagup is only out on an appeal, it's not automatic. You can argue whether or not he made an unmistakable appeal on R3, but he definitely does have to do so.
@roadmaster3531
2 жыл бұрын
@@vonskyme9133 the issue with this play is it should not have required an appeal.... If there was no outs and the first baseman catches that ball as he did.. he can tag the runner and the base and it's a triple play... The umpires screwed this up from the jump. Rule 8-2-6 extracts this from being a time play because the runner who was tagged at third never made an attempt to go back to his original base making it a force out so the run should not have counted regardless of an appeal...
@vonskyme9133
2 жыл бұрын
@@roadmaster3531 a force out under OBR is only when a player is forced to advance, not return (the rulebook is wonnderful in its wording as always, defining it as 'a play in which a runner loses his right to legally occupy a base by way of the batter becoming a runner'. It doesn't mention that the force is removed if the batter or a preceding runner is out explicitly, but that is the way it works). Tag ups are covered by rule 5.09 (c), which specifically refers to an appeal play. There is no rule 8-2-6 in the current baseball rules. There is an 8.02 which refers to appealing an umpires decision, but it us different to what is being argued in this case.
@roadmaster3531
2 жыл бұрын
@@vonskyme9133 well must be looking at an old rule book then... Bottom line Manfred is worst commissioner in Sports, Angel Hernandez is garbage and these umpires screwed up
@vonskyme9133
2 жыл бұрын
@@roadmaster3531 you can argue the first two by all means, but the third one they did absolutely by the rules as they've stood since at least 2010 (older rulesets are harder to find online).
@thepattons8713
5 ай бұрын
But...he didnt score a run...he scored an illegal run. Umps should know better.
@CafeLibrado
2 жыл бұрын
Also, the umpire crew DID send the team off the field by calling the third out. You even admit that the fourth out call aught to supersede the run if the umps had been doing a good job. But let’s spend the whole video giggling about how two inexperienced announcers don’t know rule 5.09(c) off the tops of their heads
@CafeLibrado
2 жыл бұрын
Lastly, we gotta make the legitimate movement which should have ended the inning UNMISTAKABLE because umpires don’t see too good. I fail to see how this is on the nats
@Tickenest
2 жыл бұрын
The umpires can't *not* call the third out in this situation because the third out was validly recorded. And they are not supposed to tell the defense that they ought to make an appeal.
@StillProtesting
2 жыл бұрын
Even in a homerun they can't do that. yeah. she just said it. haha
@ronlehman2978
2 жыл бұрын
Can anyone explain why intentionally tagging the runner counts as an appeal, but intentionally stepping on the base does not count as an appeal? In neither case was a verbal request made to make an appeal, both appeals were done by Adrianza's actions. The explanation in this video makes it clear that the order of appeals is irrelevant and that the defense can choose which of the two appeals to apply first. Apparently, the interpretation of this entire situation is based entirely on the fact that the tag is deemed an intentional appeal but stepping on the base was deemed an unintentional appeal, so it ends up being a judgment call on a rule interpretation. Watch from 5:20 to 6:22 to see that Adrianza steps on the base and repositions his foot on the base twice more in the next 4 seconds. That seems intentional to me. It must not have been intentional to the umpires.
@pupfriend
2 жыл бұрын
Exactly, pretty sure he wasn't stepping on third base to add to his height. He didn't trip over it while tagging the runner on third. It was a deliberate attempt to get the runner out who advanced home without tagging up. The umps must want the appeal engraved in brass.
@AdamLaMore
2 жыл бұрын
@Damian The rule says "unmistakable" - by definition, if the umpire didn't understand it, it wasn't "unmistakable". And the third baseman should have known better - the umpire only called one runner out and was clearly indicating R2 was the runner being called out. He could have talked to the ump to clarify and appeal again before leaving the field but he didn't.
@wyssmaster
2 жыл бұрын
@Damian "ignoring the possibility of an umpire's mistake" If the umpire mistakes the action made by the fielder, by definition it was not an unmistakable action. Nice job defeating yourself
@shawndavis9349
2 жыл бұрын
Another great video, I think part of a sports commentators job requirement should include maybe knowing some of the rules, instead of just guessing or pulling things out of the air.
@micahsilverman5284
Жыл бұрын
I think this may be the single worst announcing job on video since you started this channel
@dylanrobinson3716
2 жыл бұрын
This analysis is unfair. The rules exist in a vacuum. If you send a team off the field calling a third out without saying the runner is safe, you can’t then call them safe later and not allow them to appeal. They haven’t left the field because they were never on the field when the call was made. You can’t just forfeit their opportunity to appeal because you didn’t make the right call first
@rickhaavisto9023
4 ай бұрын
By not calling the runner out, the runner is safe…by definition
@joshfoulk6334
2 жыл бұрын
The first base umpire called an out when the line drive was caught by the first baseman. Then the third base umpire called an out at third because the runner who when home didn't tag up at third. That is THREE outs called by the umpiring crew. Why would the Nationals need to appeal a rule if the initial call was already three outs? This crew messed up and cost the Nationals the game, shame on them.
@alanhess9306
2 жыл бұрын
Total BS. There was an appeal on R2. There was no valid appeal on R3. The umpires were correct and the Nats screwed up the play.
@mbosschaart
2 жыл бұрын
Did you actually watch the video that fully explains the situation and still decided to troll? Crew did everything correct. Learn the rules yourself please.
@tommysheehan2136
2 жыл бұрын
So if they threw back to second or stepped on third instead of tagging R2 (thus making it a force out), would the run have counted?
@Tickenest
2 жыл бұрын
Throwing back to second would not have prevented R3 from scoring, assuming he crossed the plate before the out at second base was recorded. Stepping on third before tagging R2 would have prevented the run from scoring, because touching the base before tagging the runner makes it unmistakable that the fielder is appealing R3 because that's how you retire R3 in this situation. By tagging R2 first and then touching the base, the fielder does not demonstrate that he is intentionally appealing R3.
@iambob2567
2 жыл бұрын
"Force out" specifically refers to an out on a runner who is required to advance a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner, and nothing else. Stepping on second base would still be an appeal play and would not prevent the run from scoring. Stepping on third to appeal R3 left early would prevent the run from scoring because the scoring runner would be put out, not because there's a force out.
@santaclause3487
2 жыл бұрын
The 3b did exactly what he should have. Tag runner. Appeal the runner who “scored” by stepping on the base and showing the ump he’s appealing, which he clearly did. If the umps were distracted by the pirates coach running on the field that’s not the nats fault.
@santaclause3487
2 жыл бұрын
It’s just a rule put into place if the runner from 3rd tags and scored before another out. Now why the runner at 2nd not tagging isn’t a force…. I have no clue. Like if runners are on the corners 1 out, and a flyball is hit to the OF, if the runner from 3rd tags and scores and the runner from 1st doesn’t tag and keeps running, if they throw the ball to first I guess the run will count if he tagged up and scored before they get out at first. It doesn’t sound right. But yea, umps messed this up really bad cause the Nats clearly appealed.
@Tickenest
2 жыл бұрын
@@santaclause3487 Another consideration is that this is a situation where there are two potential appeals that the fielder is making. The threshold is "unmistakable", as in the fielder's actions must unmistakably be for purposes of making an appeal in order for the appeal to be valid if the fielder does not verbalize the appeal. The tag on R2 is unmistakable because there's no other reason for him to do so, but it is not unmistakable that his touch of 3rd base is an appeal on R3 (he's pretty nonchalant about the whole thing and it's not unreasonable to argue that he was just touching it because he was there and hey I'll touch it while I'm coming over here.) Given that he's clearly made one appeal, he needs to be much clearer with his second appeal because the umpire isn't just supposed to decide "well okay I'm just going to assume that you intend to appeal everything you possibly could" in situations where the fielder hasn't verbalized the appeal. According to the wire article about the game, crew chief Mark Wegner told the pool reporter that the base step was not an intentional appeal because he has to make it clear that he's appealing R3. Martinez said that the umpires said that the fielder didn't touch the base. Normally, I would side with the manager and assume that the umpire is just covering for his crewmate, but Martinez has a *clearly* established history of being completely wrong about rarely-invoked rules, so I'm actually more inclined to believe Wegner in this situation.
@hanke2588
2 жыл бұрын
The runner going home is out.
@mbosschaart
2 жыл бұрын
Watch the video again. I think you missed the explanation.
@MaydayAggro
2 жыл бұрын
Touching a bag certainly is enough for an appeal. Defenses do it all the time on line drives during a hit and run. Catch the ball while it is in flight, throw to the fielder at the base left too early, touch the bag, done. No one has to tell the umpire, "Hey, moron, this is an appeal!" Looking down at the base and demonstratively stepping on it is plenty for an appeal. In this case, most likely the umpire wasn't paying attention to the tag of the base, only watching the tag of the runner.
@63076topher
2 жыл бұрын
The problem is he was touching the bag at the same time as he had a TAG on a runner. This is what keeps it from being UNMISTAKABLE.
@rayray4192
Жыл бұрын
Always disgusting when an ignorant broadcaster pontificates judgement upon professional experts. You are better off watching a game muted.
@mikemactavish1665
2 жыл бұрын
Announcers don't know the rules ????? Tell me it isn't so ! . . . Great Explanation
@francissager3133
2 жыл бұрын
Granted this isn't a Mets broadcast, but both three Mets' TV and radio broadcast teams generally do a good job of getting the rules right. #InHowieGaryKeithRonAndDometimesWayneITrust
@randychase305
2 жыл бұрын
Announcers don't get 24 hours to get a statement from MLB to make a video, like this cunned stunt does.
@francissager3133
2 жыл бұрын
@@randychase305 good commentators should know the rules of the game they're commentating on.
@patrickstern3131
2 жыл бұрын
Wow those Nationals announcers are brutal. Not knowing the rule is one thing, but falsely accusing the umpires of mismanaging the situation and even advocating the Nationals protest the game (MLB no longer even allows protests anymore) is inexcusable.
@mbdg6810
2 жыл бұрын
Agreed
@TeranRealtor
5 ай бұрын
I wonder if those announcers ever corrected themselves to their audience - either later during this game, or even the next game?
@iamnotkevin31
2 жыл бұрын
Great job standing their ground. I will always give the umpires credit when they get it right, especially on obscure rules.
@tmlms1313
2 жыл бұрын
@Damian No, the defense didn't properly appeal to get R3 out nullifying the run. The umpires can't tell them "hey make sure you appeal R3 too before you leave the field" Not their fault the defense is stupid and left without getting the 4th out.
@jeredratliff7726
2 жыл бұрын
@Damian part of what you said is correct, but since they could have appealed 2 plays they would get to declare which of those plays they wanted to be the 3rd out IF THEY STAYED ON THE FIELD. Once they left the field then the tag of R2 is the 3rd out, and since R3 crossed the plate before this tag, his run counts. This is what the umpires ruled and they are correct.
@DaddyHell
2 жыл бұрын
@Damian you are clearly a very biased Nats fan. If you watch the video you will actually understand why you sound just like the announcers.
@nickpoole583
2 жыл бұрын
@@jeredratliff7726 at what point would they be given the option to declare which out they wanted to keep? Because as far as I see they were never given that option. Or what should the D done different to get it outcome they wanted? He steps on the base and seem insistent on that as to say “I’m tagging him and stepping on the base to get R3 out. I’m getting them all out.” At that point what else should the 3rd baseman have done to obtain the option in the 4th out rule?
@jeredratliff7726
2 жыл бұрын
@@nickpoole583 understandable questions as this is a confusing scenario. From my understanding - which I think aligns with the rulebook - the outs are recorded in the order they are made by the defense. The fielder doesn't get to make both outs and then declare 'a fiat' which order he wants them in. The 'declaration' is made based on the order the outs are made. This is a weird scenario because well over 99% of the time you are just looking for 3 outs and the order of them does not matter. But since the 3rd out was not a force-out, this left open the possibility of a 'timing play,' where a run can score on the same play during which the 3rd out is made. The runner was tagged for the 3rd out, which means that R3 (the runner who began the play at 3rd base) could only be declared out by appeal. The defense subsequently lost the ability to appeal this out when they left the field. My perception is that they left the field as a way of persuading the outcome of the play but it actually cost them the opporutnunity to appeal this rare 4th out situatino. If - instead of tagging R2 - the 3rd baseman had stepped on 3rd base first, R3 would have been the 3rd out, and none of this would have ensued. In other words, to prevent the run in this case a 4th out is needed **by appeal**. It can only be made by appeal because the inning is otherwise over when the 3rd out is made. The rules allow for an appeal following a 3rd out made by means other than force out. The only reason the run is possibly allowed is because it crossed the plate before the 3rd out. A 3rd out by force out negates any runs on the play, but this 3rd out was the tag of R2 who was then standing on 3rd.
@greenmanofkent
8 ай бұрын
God I hate it when play-by-play announcers are clueless about the rules. Teams should make them pass a rules test before hiring them.
@SLC-Smudge42
2 жыл бұрын
This whole situation and analysis is fascinating.
@dfscott62
Жыл бұрын
This is one of those plays that seems like a made up situation that no one would actually believe would ever happen. And I feel so bad for these umpires because these announcers that don't understand the rules are bashing them when they don't know what they're talking about.
@BrianSmith-gp9xr
Жыл бұрын
Not touching a base is beyond anything I can fathom a player doing. It is like not knowing where your house is.
@TeranRealtor
5 ай бұрын
We see NBA players travel ALL THE TIME. To me, it's like fingernails on a chalkboard.
@dereksimmons5877
2 жыл бұрын
I've come to realize that baseball is dying because announcers are so bad. Lazy, boring commentary with no injection of knowledge, analysis, insight, or strategy. Just people who like to hear themselves talk.
@arleyhaskell7241
2 жыл бұрын
The league also doesn't help with being needlessly complicated. Glad football is catching up with use of tech
@dereksimmons5877
2 жыл бұрын
@@arleyhaskell7241 Football is good about embracing tech. And they got some good announcers. Tony Romo is one of the best ever in the booth IMO. Imagine a Tony Romo-esque figure getting that hyped about a baseball game on the broadcast. That would be so cool. Like shouting at the microphone because of something tiny like a guy has an extra 3" lead... NBA is also getting better about acknowledging offensive and defensive schemes to its listeners in commentary, presuming the audience is knowledgeable and interested.
@sirme1798
2 жыл бұрын
Holy crap that's a clusterfuck. Thanks for your hard work explaining that one Lindsay.
@wernerfoerster3666
2 жыл бұрын
Sooooo 1. Batter out on caught line drive (second out of the inning) 2. R2 who left his base early is out on the tag by the third baseman (as an appeal) (third out of the inning) 3. R3 who left his base early scores even though he didn't properly tag up (because there was no proper appeal) (and because he crossed home plate before third out).
@bkelsey6692
2 жыл бұрын
The manager should have known that if his defense leaves the field, he can't make the appeal.
@voncornhole
3 ай бұрын
They already made the appeal, he stepped on the base in front of the umpire and stood on it for several seconds
@um8440
2 жыл бұрын
Nobody know the rules of the game, no wonder why baseball is dying just like nascar.
@iggy3836
2 жыл бұрын
Another cute comment made by the announcers is the one said “put it in protest.” Sorry guys, you can no longer put a game into protest.
@HipsterDoofus100
2 жыл бұрын
Kevin Frandsen (the one who is wrong about everything) is so annoying. I'm glad he's not on the Phillies radio anymore. Although Michael Bourn makes him sounds like a genius
@adrian_sanchez
5 ай бұрын
I watched and rewatched...I still don't get it. R3 never tagged his bag. So even though the "rules" say he scored with all these rules that have been added over the years. ie: the defense getting to choose which appeal, that's just silly. Or that the runner scored before the 3rd out counts as a score negating the fact that he didn't tag up, also silly. Now if he did tag his bag and scored before the 3rd out, then I can understand but I'm gonna die on this hill, that was not a legitimate score.
@eboyce24
4 ай бұрын
Despite the surrounding chaos, the rule is clear: 5.09(a) 5: Regarding when a runner is out: He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder. He shall not be called out for failure to retouch his base after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an appeal play; Stepping on the base intentionally is an appeal. If the fielder had fallen on the base that would not have been a "tag", and thus not an appeal, but that is not the scenario as Adrianza was explicit about his action both during and after.
@RaleyCreativeTravel
2 жыл бұрын
You got to give Dave Martinez a lot of credit, I am shocked someone didnt get tossed lol
@rayray4192
Жыл бұрын
Martin doesn’t know the rules. He gets no credit.
@brianmack2945
2 жыл бұрын
The worst thing about baseball's replay/review system is that it just doesn't follow common sense. Baseball has always been too "but the rules say..." focused. It was clear that the runners were out and no one should have scored and the umps should have been able to make that call without the Nats appealing
@Fire5485
2 жыл бұрын
Yes!!! This!!
@craigdupree1687
2 жыл бұрын
This sounds good in practice, and maybe with TV workable. But many times this will go un-missed at least at younger ages because the focus is usually on the ball. The only people that don't do that are the umpires, because the each umpire has a base (or bases if there are less than 4 umpires) they are watching. It's going to be a much bigger mess to try to unwind a situation where a bunch of stuff has played out on the field when the umpire is the only one that saw someone miss the bag. I mean do you immediately call it? Do you wait until a bunch of runs score, and then step and say, "oh no, actually that runner over there was out." Either way you are probably going to generate controversy. Actually even with TV it might be missed. This just helped because all the focus was on one tight spot on the field.
@craigdupree1687
2 жыл бұрын
If you don't believe me about TV, there is a great video you can find on this channel about announcers explaining the umpires because each umpire is focused on the base, but the announcers have the advantage because they see the whole field, except that they miss the very obvious obstruction happening right in front of them.
@alanhess9306
Жыл бұрын
According to the rules, that is not how it works.
@eboyce24
4 ай бұрын
According to the rules: 5.09(a) 5: Regarding when a runner is out: He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder. He shall not be called out for failure to retouch his base after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an appeal play; Adrianza clearly intended to step on third, which would only indicate an appeal as there was no force. In that sense, it would negate the restriction on appeals made after leaving the field because it was made before they left the field.
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