Its been 4 years, will be cool to see a redo with current offerings
@MAGA_Patriot2024
2 жыл бұрын
I'm officially finished with 3d/bl touches...they're both garbage, so yeah I'd like to see a 2021 sensor showdown myself 🙂
@slimanus8m
2 жыл бұрын
@@MAGA_Patriot2024 They really are garbage. for me after a long journey I came back to the source. end stop prob - klicky, the simpler the better
@mynameisdex8785
2 жыл бұрын
@@slimanus8m its been 5 years now
@slimanus8m
2 жыл бұрын
@@mynameisdex8785 Damn
@slimanus8m
2 жыл бұрын
@@mynameisdex8785 Ya....Now its official, just use Klicky or even Unklicky. it's simple cheap and accurate and cool
@pensandcalls
7 жыл бұрын
I think you did the BLTOUCH a disservice, Tom. While the other sensors perform equally well in any position, such as your horizontal position in the test fixture, the BLTOUCH is designed to work vertically. When put in the horizontal position, the sensor pin and magnet must overcome the additional friction of sliding along the bore of the guiding hole. This can lead to inconsistent measurements due to friction and grabbing. I consistently get average variation in readings around 0.015 mm
@jesondag
7 жыл бұрын
This!. The BLtouch is probably the best sensor on the market when used properly. It doesn't care what your build surface is and once your offset is determined you never have to worry about bed leveling or adjusting anything to do with the Z axis again. I routinely start a print and walk away, and expect it to come out perfect, and it does. The autoleveling is done once the bed is up to temperature, then the nozzle wipes across a brass brush, and quickly moves to the bed and starts printing. The BLTouch is an awesome bit of kit.
@alejandroperez5368
6 жыл бұрын
0.015mm is a lot of deviation
@Backenfutter85
7 жыл бұрын
This was awesome. Finally a proper comparsion between the different sensor types. Thanks a lot for your effort!
@gizmoguyar
5 жыл бұрын
I want to address something I've been seeing floating around the internet regarding the inductive/capacitive probes. People keep saying you need a 12 V to 5V voltage divider on the output. This is partially wrong, and may, in fact, introduce more errors in your bed leveling. The sensors do absolutely need to be run from 12 volts to achieve their rated specs, but if you are careful to buy an NPN type sensor, you can simply plug the output directly into the Ramps input pin. This sensors are what is called "open collector drain" output. It means that it doesn't provide an output voltage when trigged, rather it pulls the signal provided to it to ground. The Arduino/Ramps board has internal 20 kohm pull up resistors on all of its pins (enabled in Configurations.h). This pull up provides 5 volts to the output pin of the sensor, when the sensor triggers, it pulls that 5 volt signal to ground. If you use a voltage divider, you might reduce the 5 volts enough to cause unreliable switching in the Arduino. PNP type = needs voltage divider. NPN type = do not use voltage divider.
@dariussteele3843
6 жыл бұрын
I would love to see this video updated to include Ultrasonic sensors, and name brand inductance sensors like those made by Osram up to say 16mm sensing distance. That being said, this video is so helpful. Thank you for making it.
@lasercutzinfo4718
3 жыл бұрын
ultrasonic too hard to work at small distance, basically time of flight is sooooo short electronics is not fast enough to process it. if you have at least 10cm distance then there is enough time to do calculation at reasonable precision yet you need to run higher frequencies. We tried to do auto focus device at 25mm distance even there we had to give up on ultrasonic sensors.
@you_just
4 жыл бұрын
I think one of the things you have to remember is that the BLTouch is an all-in-one solution for bed leveling; it won’t interfere with your nozzle at all because of its retraction. That retraction most likely adds a significant wobble.
@haqnmaq
7 жыл бұрын
+Thomas Sanladerer Great video! Aluminum tape definitely works though! I have used it multiple times, amd we also use it reliably at our Makerspace. There are different types of aluminum tape however. It looks like you are using the "metalized" type that is similar to Mylar. That stuff will not work. You need actual aluminum tape. The metalized type isn't very conductive. Actual Aluminum tape is basically just like aluminum foil with an adhesive backing. The only thing you have to watch out for is the adhesive. Alot of aluminum tape has a low temp adhesive and will start peeling up at around 50°C, but you can find some that has a high temp adhesive which is what we use under our PEI at the Maker Space.
@haqnmaq
7 жыл бұрын
You can tell by the video that it's the wrong kind of aluminum tape. Actual aluminum tape has a dull surface to it, and it is much thicker as well. Basically the tape you tested is just plastic tape with a small ammount of aluminum vapor deposited on the surface. Other than that, Great video!
@MattBergholm
7 жыл бұрын
Agreed. I have had great results with aluminum tape on glass beds!
@Sutech118
7 жыл бұрын
I've used copper tape in the past on glass, that worked pretty well as well.
@ElectraFlarefire
7 жыл бұрын
Had minor problems with some Aluminum tapes and inductive sensors due to reduced sensing distances that I didn't like quite as well, found copper tape to be far better. But either works great. In fact on my setup(8mm inductive @12v) copper has better sensing distance than the aluminum heatbed(My printer crashes on autolevel if I leave the glass off and it tries to sense the aluminum sheet) Those here who use copper/aluminium tape under 3 or 4mm glass: What is your sensing distance? I put the tape on top and just don't print in the very corners as 1mm or so above the glass is too close for me with the tape under it.
@jhitesma
7 жыл бұрын
I've been using a piece of heavy duty aluminum foil between my heated bed and glass for almost a year - with a 8mm inductive sensor it works great. It worked with a 4mm sensor as well - but was a bit too close for my tastes and Marlin's probe test seemed to show the 8mm was about the same for accuracy so I've stuck with it and been very happy.
@dthillafap
5 жыл бұрын
If the tests were conducted as in the video , what do you make of Antcap's instructions regarding how the BLTouch must be mounted ? The manufacturer's website for the BLTouch clearly states this: if the sensor is mounted horizontally it WILL give wrong results. They don't equivocate. It is a crystal clear stipulation. It is underlined even . Would you care to comment ?
@dthillafap
5 жыл бұрын
@@Traitorman..Proverbs26.11 except it is not just an electronic device . It is an electromechanical device and it is purpose designed to work mounted vertically . My kettle is a simple electronic device , it won't work as intended if I run it on its side or upside down.
@dthillafap
5 жыл бұрын
@@Traitorman..Proverbs26.11 i take your point . But my inquiry is more to do with the method used to derive a conclusion , rather than the merits of this or any other device evaluated in the test. Manufacturer says this device X is designed and only works when used using method Y . Testing is done using method K , results turn out to be suboptimal . Why are the results suboptimal ? In truth we don't know ,. It may well be the product is unreliable but testing by using method K is not the way to find out. Over and out.
@chloemcholoe3280
5 жыл бұрын
Yeah he should have tilted it...
@milutzuk
5 жыл бұрын
If I'd design a device like this small I'd surely factor the gravity whether I'd use a spring to push the pin out or not (as it happens I'm not a flat-earther, I "believe" in gravity). Probably the pin is pulled in by a coil (with the ferromagnetic pin acting as a core). Because it needs precision, the spring, if there is one, should be weak, but the trigger point will be more influenced by the sensor orientation. I guess you could make it switch just by shaking it in the hand. To be able to ignore the gravity direction (and to have repeatability no matter the sensor orientation), the spring should be stronger, but, in this case, the precision will go away, especially with microsteppping. Factor in the uneven friction, which can be significant for a such small device and the need to keep the price small and you'll have an answer. I don't own this small guy (BLTouch) and I didn't check the datasheet, but your observation is perfectly valid. And the BLTouch test is not valid.
@TheAkashicTraveller
4 жыл бұрын
Also the other mechanical sensor results aren't valid either because he's just testing the switch itself when to actually use it you'd need a mechanism to remove it to actually print.
@lvikng57
7 жыл бұрын
When I was working on the auto-alignment at Type A Machines, I was very surprised at the unsolvable nature of the auto-alignment problem. There's essentially no way to get the desired flatness when combining the standard deviation of the sensor, with the rated flatness of aluminum, and the thermal expansion when heating to over 80C. You could conceivably do it with steel, but that has other challenges from the weight and cost of facing. Glass is really the only material we could find with below +/- 50 um flatness and dimensional stability when heated (we even managed to find some with +/- 0.3 um). Really the solution is to crowd source some magnetic glass, minimum order is 5 tons and works with induction.
@BlackHeartScyther
3 жыл бұрын
I'm game, magnetic glass ftw
@ruyvieira104
3 жыл бұрын
just epoxy glue a steel sheet to a piece of glass
@andrewmalaty8
7 жыл бұрын
How are you only at 67K subscribers? Your videos are so good and the editing lighting etc is amazing! I wish you lots of success Thomas. I really enjoy every single video that you make.
@erhardpostinger1326
7 жыл бұрын
He could get millions of subscribers from the FNL (GDR) which never learned english.
@therealdjdemond
7 жыл бұрын
Tom's videos are great and have amazing production value but how many 3D printer enthusiasts do you think are in the world? I imagine 67k people is a sizeable proportion of them.
@andrewmalaty8
7 жыл бұрын
Touché, but also lots of people that are interested in 3d printing don't have to be enthusiasts. Like you said though his production quality is probably some of the best on KZitem, and that is not an exageration. Many channels 10 hell even 100 times his size can learn a thing or two from him!
@3DPrintingNerd
7 жыл бұрын
67k is quite a small subsection of 3d printing enthusiasts. Talk to Lulzbot and Ultimaker about their sale figures. Heck, Prusa and his company are shipping 3,000 printers a month, and that's only because that is the limit at what they can produce right now, giving new orders a 7 week lead time.
@therealdjdemond
7 жыл бұрын
So this got me thinking what is the size of the global hobby 3d printing market? There's plenty of data on additive manufacturing market size but that's not people buying prusa i3 mkII's.
@neuxstone
5 жыл бұрын
Tom. You pretty much nailed this one....also you mentioned that capacitive sensors are thrown off by humidity...they are actually the instrument they use to sense humidity.
@SchwettyBawls
5 жыл бұрын
I know this video is over a year old at this point so I hope this is still relevant. He tested all of these sensors horizontally. The BLTouch specifically states NOT to use it that way. It needs to be hung vertically as it would be mounted on a printer. I've used a mechanical switch with manual leveling, a mechanical switch that flips up with a servo, capacitive sensors, inductive sensors, glass beds, PEI sheets, Zebra Plate from PRINTinZ, aluminum beds, and even tool steel beds. I've tried a total of 15 different sensors and 11 different beds in my few years of 3D printing. NONE of them were as accurate as simply using the BLTouch. When it is installed correctly, it just works flawlessly. Best of all it doesn't care one bit what surface you have, it will work on anything. I think it deserves a re-test.
@pellin-unleashthebiker3101
5 жыл бұрын
It has almost no deviation on his tests, maybe 3 micron, which is next to nothing. He also states that it doesn't care about the surface material. So actually even in this horizontal test it comes out as (one of) the best choices regardless of where you want to print on.
@thomas_st
6 жыл бұрын
I never thought about using such sensors for measuring the bed level. At work I use mostly inductive ones but just for checking if there is an object or not. When I saw your video about the Prusa i3MK3 and its autoleveling I had doubts about the precision, but your video here has told me better. Thank you.
@3DPrintingNerd
7 жыл бұрын
Is this going to be the sensor version of Fillaween? ... Sensorween?
@professorparabellum
2 жыл бұрын
你內部人員幹嘛
@chriswalter7030
4 жыл бұрын
Clear, concise, metrologically accurate and empirically awesome. Legend.
@hayfahvytsen
6 жыл бұрын
Especially good description of what standard deviation means in this situation. Gut gemacht!
@matlachaine
4 жыл бұрын
newbie questions: 1) why isn't any using ultrasonic sensors ? 2) do high end printers use laser/lidar ? thanks for the video, very informative!
@_JustBeingCasual
4 жыл бұрын
1) 2) there must be distance for both of them. None of them will allow you to notice when the nozzle < 1cm. I guess there might be a workaround with offsets though when 5/10 centimeter or something like that.
@tinhead1112
4 жыл бұрын
Ultrasonic sensors are not precise enough to do the job.
@theunitedgamersoftheworld2423
4 жыл бұрын
Lidar is a process where an infared laser light creates a kind of radar around it. 3d Printers are only trying to measure distance in one direction. It is much simpliler and more practical to not use lidar. Ultrasonics are another radar type with help of a servo, Most radar like sensors are kind of inacurate but still acurate enoguh for their use cases like on a car or a plane. Where 3d printers are looking for accuracies of up to micrometers. Always learning, Aidan Villacampa
@lukemason2232
4 жыл бұрын
Prusa uses a laser to detect stoppage in their filament sensor. You can get them on Aliexpress
@evlsc400
4 жыл бұрын
Are there any sensors that can map out the Z axis lead screws intolerances?
@ryankrammes8245
7 жыл бұрын
Very happy with David Crocker's differential IR sensor and a sheet of Printbite.
@TheChumm
7 жыл бұрын
That test machine was brilliant! I built an i3 clone following your guide and this sort of thing is really great for developing upgrades. Thanks for being so thoughtful in the design and execution of the testing.
@cncmachinery3470
5 жыл бұрын
You measured mostly repeatability, and mostly ignored system accuracy due to heating/cooling. Excellent video, great charts. Should have had an external digital DTI measure the setups actual position, logging, and dwelled (paused) after contact on the probe. Then the DTI log would show where the moving piece actually was at probe contact, vs the start position when all was cold. Likewise, the triggering circuit for probe hit is critical. I did a lot of work on this, 8 years ago, on testing for lathe spindle index sensors, and we proved conclusively that sensors will give very fuzzy signals, that vary with temp/speed/luck. A sharp triggering circuit, and a sensor tuned to give a crisp response, will be about 100x more accurate on a range of speeds vs a typical probe "hit". I also saw that optical sensors will repeat to about 2 microns, with very simple basic cheap sensors.
@diylab
7 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this comparison! We just doing the same for a customer and we were asked this question very often as we do a lot of printer customizing.
@Nikel87
7 жыл бұрын
Good video. I have thought about switching to inductive sensor but now I just think I can keep the microswitch without the lever.
@machinerin151
4 жыл бұрын
Should've tested 3D touch as well, for example from the famous clone manufacturer Trianglelab.
@LBCAndrew
3 жыл бұрын
3D Touch has a deviation about 3x worse than BLTouch.
@manny9639
7 жыл бұрын
Really cool video! The idea of applying statistics touched base, true engineering style, trial and error!
@geertbosch2778
3 жыл бұрын
I feel like I've been in a time capsule. I got an early MakerBot CNC (#180) in 2009-ish, and was printing 3mm ABS on a raft on Kapton tape, using a .37mm layer height and no fans or heated beds. I woke up in 2021 receiving a Prusa Mini+ that prints directly on a magnetically attached and heated bed, using 50 micron layer height if I so desire, and supporting PLA, PETG and a plethora of other materials out of the box. In the old times, I tried using an optical mouse sensor for auto-leveling using focus. It actually worked with the sensor 1 mm from the bed, but I wanted something more like 10mm from the bed and never got the optics to work correctly. The idea was that the optical mouse sensor not only sensed the height, but also could read markings on the bed, or a printed sheet attached to it both for calibration precision and for communicating what to print. I never got to finish this project, but it seems like it still might be worth while: the inductive SuperPINDA doesn't even provide much headroom. Does anybody here have experience using optical focusing for Z height calibration?
@keytree69
5 жыл бұрын
Another one to try is the piezo force sensor. Mount it in your bed support or (as I did) in your hot-end mount on the carriage and it registers contact of the nozzle to the bed. Zero probe offsets in X, Y and Z, change nozzle and all you have to do is run the auto-level. Super convenient. Precision Piezo do a good rig.
@Ryukachoo
7 жыл бұрын
one thing you're missing are FSRs, force sensing resistors. i use them on my delta which has a glass bed over an aluminum heat spreader. they seem to be very repeatable but only above 0.13mm deviation, any less than that and smoothieware's autocalibration gets upset
@jamessnell5131
5 жыл бұрын
I too use FSR's with Smoothie on my delta. I like them a lot, though they have their own drawbacks too.
@tonyakens8228
7 жыл бұрын
For the mini-IR probe to be used on glass, the instructions say to put a black matte backing (black paper) behind it, or to paint the surface behind it matte black with high temp BBQ paint. A reflective surface behind it like aluminum will give the kind of results you saw in your tests.
@electricroundup8300
7 жыл бұрын
Tony, see my clone of Davids mini IR, community.robo3d.com/index.php?threads/differential-ir-height-sensor-attemptin-clone-aint-sure-of-success-now-stage-10.6601/ ............Yes, you correct.....paint back of glass flat black.......Jimmy
@vladmirputin7139
5 жыл бұрын
I've been saying the same thing. This test was worst possible scenario for IR probes and IR probes only. I wish it was done properly.
@pipeepapofckgug3633
5 жыл бұрын
"Prusa has the smallest and shortest of them all" - ouh, burn. :D
@martinmajewski
4 жыл бұрын
Not the size but the technique matters... that what she said...!
@moclan582
4 жыл бұрын
Ouuh
@Gepstra
3 жыл бұрын
@@kopykat9993 hmm. SuperPINDA
@otternas3
7 жыл бұрын
Guden Thomas, wie immer: Sehr Informativ und Professionell! Ich danke dir für all deine Super Videos zum Thema, diese brachten mich in die Welt des 3D-Drucks! Weiter so, alles Gute und schöne Grüße aus dem Hessen, Otter
@column.01
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for your video, now I can comfortably purchase an induction sensor with the knowledge I will likely have to give up my glass bed. I appreciate all the testing you did!
@kermitsc1036
7 жыл бұрын
Tom, you really should continue wit the Myth-busting line. I have been experimenting with sensors I have to say that your conclusions corroborate my experience 100%. Given mechanical switches with lever , although less precise than inductive, can be used with borosilicate glass, I will stick to those. Awesome video, congrats.
@spinorkit
7 жыл бұрын
Great info, thanks Tom. I recently installed David Crocker’s IR sensor on my Prusa i3 box frame, which uses a 3mm glass bed and a red Mk2 PCB heated bed, inked black with a permanent marker in the sensor probing areas. After watching your video, I tweaked Marlin so that G30 would output the trigger height to 3 decimal places (1 micron resolution). I turned on my printer and made 46 measurements with G30 and got an s.d. of 1.4 microns. I noticed a trend in the data, presumably due to temperature drift somewhere in the system (probably the steppers warming up my crappy M5 threaded rods so the trigger point appeared to get lower with time). So I did another 34 measurements and the s.d. was 0.8 microns, but still with an obvious trend. I think these numbers are an order of magnitude better than you got with glass. Maybe it matters what is behind the glass? I should also mention there was a thin layer of glue stick on the bed under the probing area from the last print. Also I have slightly modded my sensor board to increase the trigger height from about 2.7 mm to 3.2 mm by tweaking the angle of the outer LED using a hot-air rework station. This is so that it would clear the bulldog clips I use to hold the glass down so I could still retain my full 200x200 build area.
@vladmirputin7139
5 жыл бұрын
That's because, most likely, your bed surface is suitable for Crocker's IR sensor. The testing surfaces and setup in the video is stated as not suitable in the documentation. If you are running a glass plate on top of bare aluminum it is recommended to paint the aluminum matte black. I wish this test was done with the proper setup.
@AlexKenis
7 жыл бұрын
Usually there is a spec sheet prescribing optimal materials and thickness with respect to frequency (typically a few mils for ferrous and 2-10x thicker for nonferrous). The relevant parameters are permeability and resistivity of the material. Ferrous materials and sensors generally can give higher resolution with larger sensors, and non-ferrous gives better resolution with very small sensors (even though typically smaller sensors give a shorter range), but there are universal sensors that have an equal correction factor for either. Generally ferrous sensors would probably work best in this application, and Generally target size should be 1-3 times the sensor diameter. Also, in terms of layered copper/alum tape, remember that you are isolating the layers electrically, so the induced eddy currents will be smaller (just like transformer laminations)… meaning you may need more layers of tape than you would expect. If I were adding a proximity sensor after the fact, I would get a medium-distance ferrous sensor, tape ~1mm thick steel disks to the bottom of the bed at the sensor points, fiddle with the distance, and call it a day.
@ryangarrison7088
7 жыл бұрын
This is awesome! Also fun fact: I use an aluminum mk3 heatbed with a 3/32 inch (2.38 mm) sheet of glass AND blue tape. The 8 mm inductive sensor triggers just fine for me thankfully.
@zacharyallen4270
7 жыл бұрын
I don't know where you're getting your sensors but I use 1 strip of aluminum tape under glass. Works like a charm. I used it as a retrofit onto the printrbot simple metal and it worked better than with the aluminum bed.
@inthehead1763
7 жыл бұрын
Wow Tom that was a very in depth video and very well put together as usual. Thanks!
@dvlbkrby
5 жыл бұрын
Very informative video that highlights the differences in sensor types. Just what I was looking for to help decide what sensors to look at.
@Timb737
7 жыл бұрын
Great, informative videos. Thank you. I was wondering if you tested the BLTouch horizontally or vertically? I think that its accuracy is affected by gravity and would benefit from a vertical test. I agree that it is a good alternative for glass probing.
@pellin-unleashthebiker3101
5 жыл бұрын
A coil-operated pin this small and light should not be influenced by gravity at all. The testing method is perfectly acceptable in this case.
@TROPtastic
5 жыл бұрын
@@pellin-unleashthebiker3101 not when you're dealing with micron-level precision. I calibrate measurement equipment to this level as part of my job, and misusing equipment like this is a total non-starter if I want something to perform accurately.
@pellin-unleashthebiker3101
5 жыл бұрын
@@TROPtastic did you look at the precision of the bltouch horizontally in this video? It is only some microns, so still perfect. So the conclusion is it really does not matter in this case. For something else it may, but not for a simple 3d printer.
@gymkhanadog
6 жыл бұрын
Almost 2 years later now and I still adore my BLTouch. Even if it statistically or scientifically isn't the most accurate out there, as you say, it's 'more than good enough'. It's so rare to have a calibration fail.
@giusn
7 жыл бұрын
When you tested the inductive sensors you didn't take in account the heterogeneity of an aluminium bed. While printing with my VORON I have experienced inconsistencies with inductive sensors and my PEI-painted Aluminium bed from Clever3D. Basically the trigger distance was consistent on the same spot (just like in your tests), but varied when probing a different spot... and you need to probe at least 3 distant spots. Today I switched to the VORON 1.5 X carriage, which uses the hotend itself (mounted on a mechanical microswitch) as a probe and the situation is vastly improved because a microswitch isn't affected by materials and temperature. EDIT: In theory this applies to IR probes too, as reflectivity may vary across the bed.
@mathewphillips4185
5 жыл бұрын
Can you redo the tests but use the BLT touch the way it supposed to be vertically mounted not horizontally
@wind5250
5 жыл бұрын
What would the point be? He flat out told you it was done sideways to remove backlash from the equation and limit the results to just the component . Turning them upright wont change how the devices reacted mechanically one bit .
@mathewphillips4185
5 жыл бұрын
@@wind5250 and apparently you didn't read the instructions for the bill touch it supposed to be vertically standing not horizontally to work properlyso if you want to test something the way it was made to be tested and used that's the way you do it not for non-science a backlash there's no backlash when there's up and down
@wind5250
5 жыл бұрын
@@mathewphillips4185 not only did i read the instructions i own one. Laying it on it's side is just as valid as standing it up. The fact his results are within spec as well as repeatable , and comparable to other reviews more than demonstrates this .
@TROPtastic
5 жыл бұрын
@@wind5250 you read the instructions but apparently didn't follow them (and are misusing the equipment you own, but that's your choice). It's simple physics to demonstrate that there is a mechanical difference in how the probe behaves when it is vertical vs. horizontal: When vertical, gravity acts on the spring to pull it down and keep it in its rest position. When the probe hits the surface, it can cleanly move upward until it can trigger its Hall sensor. When horizontal, not only is gravity no longer aligning the spring correctly, but there is additional friction resisting the movement of the probe (thus causing the probe to move fractionally less for the same amount of deflection). When the probe contacts a surface horizontally, there is no force preventing the probe from deflecting sideways ten+ microns before triggering the Hall sensor, leading to a loss of precision. If using your equipment like this works for you, that's great, but it's objectively incorrect to say that orientation doesn't have an effect on the BLTouch and other precision equipment.
@wind5250
5 жыл бұрын
@@TROPtastic You took all that time to write a reply but obviously not enough to actually comprehend before hand . First of all i never said how i mounted the device let alone i mounted it sideways. What i said was it would make no difference to repeat the test upright because the results are within spec and repeatable which they are . You are literally arguing that the device will perform better than the manufactures tell you it will by turning it right side up. Anyone who actually uses this device knows they give invalid readings after time the only valid questions would be what version this is and was this one new or used .
@pascalgarcia5161
5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for your videos. I have experienced difficulties with sensors. After a few consecutive prints, the levelling of the bed was not accurate, but was accurate again the day after. I now make the levelling when the bed is hot, but the problem still exists. I believe that the sensor close to the bed and the head warms up little by little, and the temperature of the sensor may have some effect of the measurement.
@raise-project
7 жыл бұрын
Very informative, thats exactly the content I prefere. Some more mythbusteresque explosions would be neat.
@raise-project
7 жыл бұрын
Excellent :)
@HenryLoenwind
7 жыл бұрын
Yeah, let's slam that probe through that glass with some speed! *g*
@cncdaddio
7 жыл бұрын
I have a question about the inductive sensors... How much 'material' do they need below and around them and at what point does it make a difference? For instance: If I trigger right on the edge of my aluminium plate it triggers lower then when probed in the middle of my plate. Does thickness play a huge role? Do they trigger higher when there is a bearing holder right below the sensing point? How thick does the aluminium need to be to not have that influence...
@kevin_delaney
7 жыл бұрын
I liked this video a lot, I simply wish the sensor I use (David Crockers IR Sensor) had a slightly deeper/more in depth review. I am given more confidence to continue using it, however, will no longer calibrate it with the heated bed on. That is a variable I had not even thought twice of! I simply set the bed for 55° for my PolyMax PLA and calibrated it when it was done heating right before the print...Thank You for that!
@MarkRehorst
7 жыл бұрын
Would you please make a video explaining limitations of autoleveling? A lot of people seem to think it will compensate for misaligned axes (like when a dual motor Z axis loses motor sync and the X axis tilts).
@sasjadevries
7 жыл бұрын
Why don't they sell a piezo or ruby sensor? I mean the proffesional CNC machines use Ruby tips with light refraction for sensing, and the price of synthetic ruby is actually quite affordable. The piezzo idea is to just to let it act like a microphone hearing when it hits the surface.
@chrisjericho7123
7 жыл бұрын
I've just discovered your channel and love the friendly sound of your voice. I want to do a few small projects and I was weighing paying for prints vs buying my own printer. I found the new matter mod-t for 299 but wondered was there something better for beginners that maybe will help them as they transition to an intermediate level of skill without going a lot higher ( +$200 US) in price. In any case, I enjoy your videos. Thank you.
@mexussound
7 жыл бұрын
I have Omkon SN04-N inductive sensor. I use glass bed and have one layer of aluminum tape ON TOP of the glass where the sensor probes. It works pretty well :)
@brandonterry1517
7 жыл бұрын
This was awesome. I love these technical kinds of videos. Thanks for the info, Tom!
@samuelkemp4557
7 жыл бұрын
This is amazing! Finally a useful application of the scientific method to get some hard data. It is so much more convincing than people's opinions. Love your videos!
@pradiptabiswas2393
5 жыл бұрын
Cool comparison. I was looking for a sensor to measure distance for my research project. So this helped me to understand the basics of the sensors. Thank you for that. Also is it possible to have the part list for your test setup? It will be really useful.
@hassaization
7 жыл бұрын
for my scratch built reprap delta we used a simple conductive type, running 1 wire to the nozzle, and another to the aluminium bed, reeally simple and easy, and no need to worry about effector tilt
@winandd8649
7 жыл бұрын
Very, very nice testing here! Thanks Thomas! I've been using a little microswitch (with lever) on a metal strip moved by a servo. It's working flawlessly for years now. (all metal printer, no 3d printed parts) Nice to see that this turns out to be a precise way indeed :-)
@camiloecheverry5210
5 жыл бұрын
Hi, Are you still using the micro switch?
@DudeBoerGaming
4 жыл бұрын
I have a unique idea for a sensor that might work better than any of these. I know it works much better than a Microswitch for sure at least....when I built it initially I didn't know what use it may be, but now it is all quite clear! Thank you Thomas! You inspire me!
@antisubae
7 жыл бұрын
"Alumininium" alone earned my subscription, whether it was intentional or just a typo. :D This was very informative, thanks for taking the time to do all the testing!
@johnz5359
7 жыл бұрын
The entire world uses "aluminium." Only america uses "Aluminum."
@antisubae
7 жыл бұрын
John Z Watch the video again if you didn't see what I was commenting on. I promise that no matter what country you're from, it's not generally spelled that way. Tom inserted a small item into the video that is internationally known as a "joke", and is intended to provoke a humor response in humans with at least average spelling and reading skills.
@antisubae
7 жыл бұрын
+John Z Seriously dude, look at what I wrote in my original comment, re-watch the video, and then try to be amazed at how dense you actually are. The word is intentionally misspelled both by Tom in the video, and by me above. There are extra letters in it. It doesn't say "aluminum" or "aluminium". In your efforts to claim Internet Superiority, you've completely missed the obvious.
@crussty3d
7 жыл бұрын
Tom, if you retest the optical sensors, I would like to see it done with different color materials behind the glass (specifically black, white, red and peach- the common colors of heaters). Would also like to see how ambient IR light affects the repeatability, i.e. fluorescent lighting and sunlight. I had very mixed results with David Crocker's IR sensor during probing with sunlight coming in through the windows, for example, vs. probing in a dark room.
@davidcrocker4285
7 жыл бұрын
The IR sensor I make doesn't like bright sunlight (no clouds in front of the sun) shining directly on the bed and reflecting into the sensor. The current version 1.2 will flash the LED rapidly to warn you when it detects that. Otherwise, it isn't affected by ambient light. Incandescent light - especially halogen - affects some other types of IR sensor, but not mine. I'd also like to know what material was behind the glass when Tom did his tests. The reason that glass and other transparent materials can cause problems for optical sensors is that you get 2 or 3 reflections: one from the front, one from the back, and possibly a third from whatever is behind the glass. We want the one from the front to be stronger than the others, which is why we recommend a black surface behind the glass.
@MrAnalogmonster
7 жыл бұрын
I would love testing of a few more sensor options: FSR, seemeCNC accelerometer and piezo-electric disk
@jesondag
6 жыл бұрын
FYI, you tested the BLTouch in the wrong orientation. I tested mine thoroughly at multiple homing speeds and standard deviation was 0.01mm with the occasional one that that was +/- 0.02mm, on all but really fast homing speeds. I now do a two step homing with it, once at 1500mm/m, and then a slow home at 100mm/m from ~2mm of the bed.
@florinnichifiriuc
7 жыл бұрын
i use inductive 4mm and the bed is made from 2 sheets of glass (3mm) and graph foil (0.2mm) in between and works great.
@stomping_leaf
5 жыл бұрын
Incredibly thorough, concise review! Keep up the great work
@longjohn526
7 жыл бұрын
I'm using an 8mm NPN output inductive probe, the same 8mm one in the video. Rather than using a voltage divider what I use is a diode instead. When off it puts out 12V and goes low on trigger. So you put the diode in series with the output with the cathode towards the probe to block it and make sure the pullup resistor on the input is enabled in the firmware. When the probe triggers it goes low and turns on the diode and pulls the input down to .6V which is good enough to be considered a low on the input. The diode will give a nice cleaner trigger to the input than a resistive voltage divider will and it's easier to wire and insulate, just solder in series and cover with heatshrink I'm sensing nothing but a 10"x10" PCB heater (Sitting on cork to keep it flat and insulate it) with a 2mm thick piece of hardware store glass on top and the repeatability is near 100%. I always use it on a preheated bed and that seems to help repeatability. My only gripe is you have to recalibrate it in the firmware if you do any work on the hotend or X carriage but that's not often so it not a big deal since the rest of the time it's pretty much "plug and play" printing. Cheap effective upgrade IMO
@spikekent
7 жыл бұрын
Invaluable advice and comparisons Tom. Massive appreciation mate.
@RunderCaster
7 жыл бұрын
where is Prusa i3 MK2 cloned part 2 :(
@RunderCaster
7 жыл бұрын
I want to build my first cheap 3d printer
@Pandonaut
7 жыл бұрын
HYPE!
@JimmyJames420
7 жыл бұрын
Runder Caster go to microcenter! they have a Prusa clone from wanhoa for $299! works amazing for the price with decent print volume 200*200*180. I'm trying hard not to buy a second one.
@RunderCaster
7 жыл бұрын
Building printer your self is much cheaper and you will learn how it works, so when something breaks you know what to replace I already ordered all of parts required to build clone of prusa for around 80$(not including frame, I will build it my self)
@JimmyJames420
7 жыл бұрын
woops sorry misread your post as "get a 3D printer" $299 ($399 online elsewhere) was the cheapest I'd seen for fully assembled all-metal printer with that build volume just trying to help out.
@MatthewHartsuch
7 жыл бұрын
if you are going to be looking at the Sharp IR sensor you may want to also take a look at the time-of-flight sensors, the VL53L0X and VL6180X
@WilliamEades_Frostbite
7 жыл бұрын
I read a lot of comments regarding aluminum tape working for some and not for others. I might be able to add some clarity on the reason. "Standard" aluminum tape has no real standard when it comes to compounding. Many times manufacturers will use batch rejects, recycled scrap, Mold Ends and casting flash cut offs in the mix for tape. This will introduce impurities, many of which are ferrous, that don't matter due to the tapes intended use. It is these impurities that create differing sensing distances from one batch to the next as chemically speaking, one will be "Purer" aluminum than the next.
@a4gr
7 жыл бұрын
Thanks for all that testing but now I want to know which probe is best for the Scoovo X9H. It has Kapton tape directly stuck on a glass bed with the silicon heating pad just under it. Board: RAMBo Firmware: Marlin
@mruizcamauer
7 жыл бұрын
Your videos are all excellent, but this one is superb! We spent so much effort learning this on our own... at Kikai Labs we use a capacitive sensor, take 16 measurements prior to starting each print job and level the bed automatically. It works great. We do calibrate the sensor first using three different bed temperatures, as it does matter as you pointed out. Interesting observation about the humidity, though... I used capacitive so that it would measure the glass surface, and we use a mirror instead of plain glass, and get better results. Also we found that the smallest the measuring distance, the more accurate it is, so we measure from 2mm away using a 12mm sensor.
@rataorigins3511
6 жыл бұрын
Y que le paso a Kikai Labs?
@choschiba
7 жыл бұрын
Thank you very much for this very interesting & informative video!! I love those technical contributions.
@cdreid99999
3 жыл бұрын
Wow great video thanks. This should get a lot more attention
@fredgenius
5 жыл бұрын
I don't use autolevel for couple reasons - I print on glass, and I can't afford (or justify the expense of) ball screws. I use an inductive sensor (LJ8A3-2-Z/BX-5V), as a fixed Z end stop switch, sensing a mild steel bolt head. Using a digital 'dial' gauge, I get repeatabilty of ~3µm delta (not standard deviation). That's with T8 lead screws and DRV8825 drivers, 32 microsteps, so 1.25µm per step. Not bad I think, for a modest outlay, and plenty good enough for 3d printing.
@vladmirputin7139
6 жыл бұрын
The only reason I moved from an inductive sensor to David Crocker's IR sensor is because of the bed. If the thickness of the bed varies, or there are holes in it to reduce weight, the induction sensor will trigger at a different height to more/less material being on the bed in one location.
@JimmyJames420
7 жыл бұрын
great video! cool rig, shows the power of rapid prototyping. been thinking about Auto leveling, I have a delta that uses pressure pads, would be great to see how well it stacks up, down side is Auto leveling is tapping printer head into the bed every time.
@Marc42
3 жыл бұрын
42 data samples? Sounds like a legit way of answering an important question! :D
@KennethScharf
2 жыл бұрын
After re-viewing this video again, I wondered why you tested all of the sensors on the same surface (aluminum) as the different types of sensors each work best on particular surfaces. For example the inductive sensors only work against a metal build surface such as flex sheets with PEI or PEX. The IR sensors work best with a black body, or no- reflective surface such as build tak, and poorly against aluminum and non etched glass. Capacitance probes need to be adjusted, but will work with numerous surfaces. They should perhaps be used with the bed heater on, and at less than 65C.
@SamChaneyProductions
5 жыл бұрын
Wow, a basic micro switch without the lever performed much better than the BLtouch.
@communistkid1767
5 жыл бұрын
Sam Chaney the bltouch is not made to operate horizontally, it may be more accurate when used correctly
@MrCcfly
5 жыл бұрын
@@communistkid1767 how you know is it horizontally ? he explain what bltouch numbers mean every 3-5 print it will fup up to 0.1mm
@fantasmag00ria
7 жыл бұрын
Are you planning on sharing the data itself? Not only the graphs included in the video. Would be great.
@jedijeremy
7 жыл бұрын
But only when hard-mounted - which is good for those of us still using endstops - but remember the mechanics to flip them out of the way will introduce errors as Tom said. But that would mostly be a "servo repeatability test" not a "sensor test".
@jensharbers6702
4 жыл бұрын
@@jedijeremy On my Delta I have a magentic sensor which I need to deploy manually. Works fine, it uses a microswitch without lever. ^^
@walterbunn280
7 жыл бұрын
So capacitive sensors are the only way to detect the build it's self. This video confirms the need for a way to correct for error. I like the idea of using an inductive probe as a means to compensate for a capacitive probe's error, but maybe just using 2 capacitive probes mounted near the print head and comparing the measurements would be better. Using an inductive probe to compensate for error would still require a metal build plate from which the position measurement could be taken.
@everlastingmedia
Жыл бұрын
Necro, but thanks a billion for making this video. Would be interested to see what new sensors are out there, and learning more about the LIDAR from the Bambu Lab X1C
@janbeck8269
7 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the great video! However, I am suspicious about the measurement numbers you put out. You report
@janbeck8269
7 жыл бұрын
Agreed. Is the David Crocker's IR sensor comparable to the one in the Ultimaker 3?
@SixxKicks
7 жыл бұрын
May want to check the structural integrity of your floor! LOL :D
@metasynthese
7 жыл бұрын
@Thomas - And additional info for you: I've noticed a huge unreliabilty with my inductive sensor C-Lin P-802N (runs nicely at 5V) - first I thought it was caused by temperature differences caused by my huge high powered heat bed, but after a while I found that even smallest drops in the voltage of the printer control boards PSU makes sensing distance very unreliable (using a cheap chinese 12V 6A notebook-psu brick for the board+hotend). I've came to that conclusion after changing to a old and dirt cheap ATX psu as reliability got MUCH better but still got not perfect (bad quality "250W" ATX PSU). Now I'm using a 200W 12V halogen trafo, rectifier, added several very huge Elko capacitors (about 50k µF all together) and now sensing distance is +- 0.00Xmm reliable instead of +-~0.3mm!!! I heard that the BLTouch (and it's chines "3DTouch" clone) have similar problems.
@ErlendDavidson
4 жыл бұрын
Seeing as inductive probes can see through plastic/silicone, would it be sensible to put a silicone sock (or even a printed plastic cap) over the bottom of the inductive probe to reduce temperature effects? I'd be really interested to see if that helps.
@kesterbelgrove818
6 жыл бұрын
Try the sharp with an offset. Ultrasonic sensors generally can't read values accurately below a certain valve, due to the reading times required for the sound wave. Try offsetting it and see if accuracy is better.
@mariomassens
7 жыл бұрын
AWESOME. I don't know how you find the time, but I would to live next door to you. Thank you for your hard work!
@zoltankorossy2957
5 жыл бұрын
The BLTouch manual specifically states the sensor must be run vertically. Since your test rig is horizontal, the results are suspect. It would be good to rerun the BLTouch test with it held vertically.
@0ComedyLaughs0
6 жыл бұрын
runs the sensor 42 times. That's the anwser, well done :)
@christopherellis5256
6 жыл бұрын
Dude, you are my 3D Printing Super Hero... Love your passion for the 3D printing. I'm in the Vegas Area and they are always talking about probing, especially with Area51 so close. Lol
@beginjd1
7 жыл бұрын
Enjoyed the video. I've actually used the thicker gauge of "Duct Repair Foil tape" by sticking it to the top of the glass sheet and then putting a sheet of BuildTak on top. Maybe that's not aluminium? Anyway, my cheap sensor saw it.
@KrustyKlown
6 жыл бұрын
Assuming the data collected is accurate, in order to make probe comparisons, large tolerances must be added to inductive probes that include the build plate tolerance stack for non-conductive top sheets (adhesive, PEI, etc...) . Also the BL Touch is intended to operate vertically, more friction is introduced horizontally. Once all this is considered and included, the BL Touch will compare MUCH better, if not the best. Also, if tossing on a thick G10 build plate for printing Nylon ... only the BL Touch or a micro switch can accommodate that, without having to change the probe z offset value.
@mcgivervii
4 жыл бұрын
Thomas, I really enjoyed your video, and it is very informative, I have been using LJ18A3-8-Z/BX inductive sensors on all my Printers, at 5v. As long as I don;t use any glass thicker than 3 mm on aluminum heat bed's.. I have noticed that if you have the heatbed heating it has a magnetic field generated from the traces in the heat bed when high current is flowing.... thus an autohome while heater is off will be different than when heating. If the bed is hot and cycling while doing a multipoint bed leveling you won't get an accurate map of your surface of the heat bed. I tried a 4mm borosilicate glass over aluminum and had to move the probe down so close to the glass that it only had .8 mm between the nozzle tip and the sensor trigger point. sensor sometimes would scrape off the first layer on some runs. I did wonder if running a 6-36v sensor at 5v reduced the sensing distance, and if I used the 15k/10k voltage divider and the 12v supply if it would restore any lost range. ie ~8mm vs the ~4mm I am getting at 5v. BTW I'm an electronics tech been doing trons since 1973 and 3d printers for the past 10 years or so.
@CapnBry
7 жыл бұрын
Wow love the detail and different perspectives covered in this video. I'm a sucker for this sort of data. If inductive sensors have their detection range halved, and there is a sheet of window glass (2.38mm thick) on top of the bed, doesn't that mean that both 2mm and 4mm inductive sensors are right out? I'd love to print ABS right on the aluminum but nothing sticks to it without a carefully maintained pile of glop (glue/slurry), where glass works for weeks with a single light hairspray application.
@Anonymouspock
7 жыл бұрын
David Crocker designed his sensor to use black paper backed glass, however I don't see any test of that case.
@BloodyMobile
2 жыл бұрын
I was surprised that load cells weren't included, but then I looked at the date of the video and realized why. The CR-6, which might have even started others using them for bed leveling, didn't exist back then.
@JaredFarnum
7 жыл бұрын
How about a extruder comparison test? or better, how about a linear bearing comparison test? I am not a huge fan of Prusa's linear bearings but would love to know some numbers of if Igus or others are really better.
@Jono6671
7 жыл бұрын
Jared Farnum this would be very interesting for sure
@VladOnEarth
7 жыл бұрын
I would not use cylindrical rails at all. I'd stay with linear slides.
@albertversteeg9749
4 жыл бұрын
Can you use an inductive sensor with the removable magnetic plate on the table?
@nourdraw1548
7 жыл бұрын
I have not seen any video like this one, wow! super informative! keep it up man
@nraynaud
7 жыл бұрын
I think the standard deviation issue is quite simple: if the error is really random and its distribution is really normal, then just average the samples. How ? you do it backwards with by randomly choosing a Z zero and counting the micro steps to the sensor triggering and averaging that number. The micro-stepping itself introduces a normally distributed random error (if you alway approach the triggering point from top to bottom) ? it's ok, the composition of both noises is still normal and you can still take the average. And if you are really smart, you look at your samples and check their distribution, and report an error if there is an issue with it.
@ArionRaine
7 жыл бұрын
FYI. Inductive sensors are intended to be used with ferrous materials. Their ability to trigger is severely lessened with non-ferrous materials. Its takes a relatively substantial piece of non-ferrous material to get them to trigger at their rated distance. this is why foil tape does not work , and why everybody complains that the sensing distance is incorrect. in fact it is correct , what is not correct is the usage , and assumptions made. I mean, they are "inductive" sensors , which inductance usually isnt well associated with non-ferrous materials.
@jeffm2787
6 ай бұрын
Many years later and the BLTouch and the clones are the most used. Inductive requires the metal to be the exact same accross the entire bed surface, so it's out in most cases. Of course now we have Lidar sensors. Sticking with my genuine BLTouch setups for now. They just work.
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