Did people think I was actually serious about Fortnite? C'mon...
@ShinoSarna
5 жыл бұрын
You didn't exactly make it very clear that it was a joke, to be fair. And you put that joke in a section that ALREADY bashed old games and said they suck, which already would've made people defensive. That joke was definitely a bad idea, man.
@Methaferus
5 жыл бұрын
I actually broke out laughing when you said its not because of your lack of skill its because of boredom. Are you telling us that? Or are you telling yourself that?
@Methaferus
5 жыл бұрын
I just realized what you are: a game journalist. Someone who will fault a game for the way it punishes you for sucking at said game. I'm honestly surprised you didnt bitch about having to climb back up a vertical climb after falling in shovel knight.
@Titleknown
5 жыл бұрын
Huh. Though, I might as well add, there's an interesting counterpoint to this, in that there is some evocative emotion/feel in the parts of old games that are treated as "jank" or "obsolete" that get loss in the March Of Progress-driven view of the medium, as best exemplified by Liz Ryerson's very recent article on Thief: medium.com/mammon-machine-zeal/a-stairway-to-the-unconscious-thief-the-dark-project-20-years-later-6bd1f92783e9 And, while I disagree A LOT with Ryerson, on a lot of things, I can't help but feel she has a point here. A lot of very good things got lost in games desire to be Modern and Respectable, and I think that's worth criticizing.
@KorriTimigan
5 жыл бұрын
Man, apparently people here really can't take a joke.
@brettknoss486
5 жыл бұрын
The flicker in these old games was not a glitch from lack of polish. It was the result of hardware limitations.
@rickfeith6372
5 жыл бұрын
Yeah...and RF modulation and composite video. Not quite the rock solid pixels of today.
@davkdavk
5 жыл бұрын
Yeah, but more due to hardware limits
@david2legit2quit
5 жыл бұрын
I think the flashing was smart as hell
@time_egg
5 жыл бұрын
@Rooflesoft Games Right, so developers would alternate which sprites appeared on the screen by flickering them. This would allow them to bypass what would otherwise be a terrible limitation and put more objects "on-screen". So flickering is actually a sign of ingenuity and polish on the developers part. Not the other way around, Snowman.
@mason3872
5 жыл бұрын
The sprites flash and disapear so they could display more sprites than usual
@Azzman1000
3 жыл бұрын
The glitching pixels was due to the NES having a max amount of sprites that could be animated at any one time. Making them flicker meant that you could have more animated characters on screen and render them in alternating frames.
@Pridetoons
2 жыл бұрын
Modern gamers be like...
@vicktaru
2 жыл бұрын
Came down to make this statement. Glad to see others out there keeping the knowledge alive.
@PlasticCogLiquid
2 жыл бұрын
I never even noticed the flicker when I was a kid, it might as well have been non-existant. I was too busy enjoying the kick ass games
@TimbumfuckAndy
Жыл бұрын
NES rules you're a butthead
@NihongoWakannai
Ай бұрын
@@PlasticCogLiquid probably has to do with playing on a CRT instead of emulation. The hardware of the CRT hid a lot of the flaws in the graphics.
@Godzilla2004.
4 жыл бұрын
Rayman Origins is one of those extremely hard games where it starts off east with plenty of checkpoints but slowly spaces those checkpoints out and makes it harder, it's one of my favorite games of all time
@AnimatedTerror
3 жыл бұрын
Man ray man origins was one of the first games I ever got 100% in. I had to get to the land of the livid dead. And then I did and it’s like the game (which by this point was already difficult) just suddenly flipped the table and grabbed me by the collar. But the payout... oh man. I love that game. Legends came close to replicating it but something was missing... still.
@jeffp3495
3 жыл бұрын
Incredible game, gotta be close to the greatest 2d platformer ever
@astor_25
2 жыл бұрын
@@AnimatedTerror Ikr, Legends wasn’t even close as good as origins
@jetthejudge
2 жыл бұрын
@@astor_25 yeah...Legends destroys Origins
@oldschoolgaming_
2 жыл бұрын
Rayman Origins is such an underrated masterpiece
@Zyon134
5 жыл бұрын
Did I just watch an ad for Shovel Knight?
@jamesazevedo3998
5 жыл бұрын
Zyon I certainly hope so!
@mistertagomago7974
5 жыл бұрын
My issues with this video aside Shovel Knight is great tbf.
@austin6960
5 жыл бұрын
Same
@exantiuse497
5 жыл бұрын
He had to praise a modern difficult game or rabid NES tards would've filled the comments with "you just suck, git gud". Which was a pointless effort since they did so anyways, most of them probably didn't even watch the video
@mistertagomago7974
5 жыл бұрын
If he didnt watch the video he wouldn't know Shovel knight was in it a lot. Also he mainly focused on complaining about lives which is something not unique to NES games at all and didnt begin with NES games at all, as well as praising Shovel knight for ideas it got from Megaman.
@robertlauncher
Жыл бұрын
Imagine having a series on game design and calling Sprite flickering a “Glitch.”
@richardchambless12
5 жыл бұрын
Before NES, we had the Atari 2600. A dot shooting another dot with a smaller dot. The NES blew my mind when I first saw it.
@whatintarnation9217
5 жыл бұрын
Too bad they drove their company straight to hell...
@xxsupersayen34xxnoe33
5 жыл бұрын
@@whatintarnation9217 nintendo or atari?
@whatintarnation9217
5 жыл бұрын
@@xxsupersayen34xxnoe33 atari
@dragonpixel1809
5 жыл бұрын
What happend to atari i heard of the old e.t game being garbage but apart from that what happend?
@whatintarnation9217
5 жыл бұрын
@@dragonpixel1809 if I remember correctly I believe it was a combination E.T the Atari version of pacman and and the company itself being left within the dust (as in sales) what I believe happened is those two anal entrees E.T and pacman People began to have something called "standards" and so when Atari kept publishing the same quality of games less and less people kept buying them and eventually no one in their right minds wanted anything to do Atari and so in a half assed attempt to bring up sales they made the Atari 5200 which I'm pretty sure you know how bad that console is and what drove Atari deeper down its own garage. Now I'm not too sure if all of that is correct but I strictly remember that it had to do with e.t and pacman (the Atari version)
@archiewebb9154
4 жыл бұрын
Dying at 0 lives in spyro sends you back to your last save not the beginning
@shadowsnake5133
3 жыл бұрын
@Melvin Lopez oh yeah, and don't forget, those could corrupt due to various issues, so I completely understand why ps1 and saving wasn't used often if at all... the same doesn't apply to ps2, as at that point it was common to have at least 2, 1 of which were backups/ games you rarely played. And then we get to the xbox 360... oh yeah, that had memory cards. Talk about redundant.
@Mr_Skibz
5 жыл бұрын
Bubble bobble. Hard to beat in one sitting but every stage had a code so you could always pick up where you left off. Multiple endings. One of the greatest games of all time.
@mistertagomago7974
5 жыл бұрын
The arcade version sent you back to the beginning after you lost all your lives. It's the one I usually play though because of the graphics and sound quality.
@LukaMusics
5 жыл бұрын
This dude seriously used save states to beat Super Mario Bros. 3
@aturchomicz821
5 жыл бұрын
Luka Bucar laughs in Speedruner language
@randomguy6679
5 жыл бұрын
He's allowed
@mistertagomago7974
5 жыл бұрын
Hes allowed but its hardly what id call a hard game. Its pretty easy to rack up a ton of lives.
@ASFalcon13
5 жыл бұрын
This right here. Saving the princess in SMB3 through save state use is the participation trophy of video games.
@jaykelley103
4 ай бұрын
@@randomguy6679he's a bitch. Literal children used to beat that game
@icepeep7265
5 жыл бұрын
Snowman Gamig:There's no way Mario Games like these would happen today Mario Maker: Hold my beer
@FrostGlader
5 жыл бұрын
Mega ManFan123 nah it’s a relevant wooosh. IG doesn’t know what the guy was thinking when he made the comment. No-one can accurately read minds from KZitem comments.
@LicenciadoLoui
5 жыл бұрын
Frost Glader No, it isn’t.
@icepeep7265
5 жыл бұрын
The game currently is mostly crappy troll levels when playing online, however some levels are creative, making it hard
@FrostGlader
5 жыл бұрын
Loui Javier he didn’t make it clear that he got the joke, hence the woooshing is relevant. I try to put a joking tone into my joke replys, even if they have a serious tone and are on a joke comment, they are usually corrections, or are to Woooshable comments. One of my replies are definitely woooshable, yet didn’t get noticed because there was already a wooosh in the chain, or more so a massive wooosh chain. Gotta be careful on this platform man.
@OeshenNix
5 жыл бұрын
TWO!!!
@Henkz85
5 жыл бұрын
I regard Castlevania as one of the NES games that have aged the best. It's really hard but short and overcome-able. You have three lives, but all that happens when you lose them is that you have to restart the level. As long as you have lives you restart at the checkpoints. The reason that everyone hates the medusa heads isn't that they're badly designed, it's that they're the first enemies that teach you that you need patience and plan your actions in this game. And that's frustrating when the game so far had been pretty much hit and run.
@snomangaming
5 жыл бұрын
I agree, of the many NES games, I regard Castlevania and Punch out as some of the best
@mistertagomago7974
5 жыл бұрын
Castlevania 3 is the best Castlevania. I enjoy replaying it a lot.
@ShinoSarna
5 жыл бұрын
*Games don't age, you do.* The problem with retro games is that you need to put yourself in a mindset of somebody who would've played them long ago. So you will need patience, expect that games will require mastery, and don't expect instant gratification - because you won't get any. All fun has to be worked hard for.
@mistertagomago7974
5 жыл бұрын
You just described Dark Souls which is one of the most popular and well known games of this decade.
@Henkz85
5 жыл бұрын
@@mistertagomago7974 I realized so myself when I was writing it. But then again, Dark Souls was praised for bringing old school mentality back to modern games. :) Is Dark Souls the Castlevania of modern games? ;)
@lightninstriker10
5 жыл бұрын
Mega Man is definitely, in most cases, a master class in the sort of modern-day challenging design you spoke of. Barring the first game, which of course commits the inexcusable sin of making an item that can be confused for being optional, required to even beat the game, in a particularly nastily designed section that in some versions of the game, render progression impossible if it runs out, Mega Man tends very frequently to introduce a stage gimmick or mechanic in a safe environment where you can't be killed by it. Magnet Man's stage in Mega Man 3 mixes the ever-present disappearing blocks of previous games with a new wall-magnet mechanic dragging you off of them if you get too close, but the first two of these are in a safe environment where you aren't penalized for falling, but the third introduces a bottomless pit to the equation, suddenly raising the stakes and testing how well you react to this new magnet mechanic. Or, a more resourceful player, depending on when they arrive at Magnet Man's stage, may already have the Rush Jet, which they can use to bypass this challenge entirely, rendering it moot. Mega Man is full of potential options for a player to explore and that's what can make them so infinitely replayable. One of my favorite things to do is practicing a stage with savestates, stating at each new screen and making multiple runs with different weapons and items at my disposal, trying to develop the perfect "How do I best deal with this?" strategy.
@significantpepper5274
5 жыл бұрын
Mega Man is definetly a great game. Except MM2.I still hate how random and poorly designed some bosses like Quick Man and Air Man are.
@masonjones7777
5 жыл бұрын
Also don't forget some of the bs wily bosses, security system from mm 2 is like the bed of chaos' great great grandfather.
@BeesKnees_
4 жыл бұрын
Also, the enemies can get unfocused and too diverse, like everyone's favorite enemy, the hotheads that only appear twice.
@forbjok
4 жыл бұрын
Don't forget that one wily stage in MM2 that has a boss that requires pretty much a full load of Crash Bombs to defeat, so that if you attempt it once and fail you practically have to kill yourself repeatedly until you game over and replay the entire stage. MM2 is probably IMO the best Mega Man game overall, but that particular case is just plain stupid design.
@charaselect
4 жыл бұрын
Charge man in MM5 without any items is complete BS. Also 3 of the 4 starting bosses of MM7 are made completely trivial if you have any other weapon than Mega Buster
@KlausWulfenbach
5 жыл бұрын
"Glitching pixels and lag" was the result of the limits of the NES hardware, not a polish issue. Don't forget most of the NES's actual chips were 1970s tech or based on 1970s tech, and the NES itself wasn't even designed to run Super Mario Bros or Mega Man, it was designed to run nearly-arcade-perfect Donkey Kong. If you didn't want glitching sprites or slowdown in your NES game, there were four options: 1) Use background tiles whenever possible. Pretty much all of the best NES developers, including Nintendo, abused background tiles in ways Nintendo hadn't originally intended. 2) Use different hardware. e.g. wait a few years and make a game for Turbo Grafx 16 or Amiga instead. Sure hope you don't need to pay bills until then! 3) Jump through hoops to make sure the few sprites you do use don't overlap horizontally. e.g. make sure some sprites don't move vertically at all. 4) Give up and live with it. A lot of developers went for option 4.
@ByGeorge846
5 жыл бұрын
I'm not sure this guy is aware that these games were developed in the 80's. He doesn't even understand that game design =/= game programming.
@1sdani
5 жыл бұрын
@@ByGeorge846 I'm sorry, what?
@bloocheez3
5 жыл бұрын
@@ByGeorge846 seriously. That was the exact point I paused the video to see the comments. "Games released with so little polish"!? Of course, this guy wasn't even alive back then so he's got no point of reference.
@romerus6087
5 жыл бұрын
yeah, that part alone made me think that he doesn't know what he's talking about
@LauriTech
5 жыл бұрын
@Chad Not NES trying to flicker sprites, the flickering is programmed to the game. NES just doesn't show the last sprites if there are too many per scanline, so games had to have a feature to detect that and cycle which ones will be shown.
@toiletgoblin4424
5 жыл бұрын
*Several people are typing...*
@THEGREATMAX
5 жыл бұрын
"Not out of lack of ability, but out of boredom or annoyance" Yeah, I bet you're real annoyed you can't make a perfect run noob. Shut up and git gud
@toiletgoblin4424
5 жыл бұрын
THEGREATMAX Calm your shit it’s a joke
@gskittlez8885
5 жыл бұрын
Nes games don't suck... just you
@Methaferus
5 жыл бұрын
@@gskittlez8885 exactly. I get that nes games can be frustrating but (in most cases) at the end of the day its your skill that is the reason you arent progressing and snoman can lie to himself saying that its not because of his lack of skill its because of boredom but its not true. I actually broke out laughing when he said that too.
@cael5118
5 жыл бұрын
@@Methaferus the checkpoint system in NES games makes it more tedious to practice in order to "git gud". This is why games like Meat Boy and Shovel Knight are so great, because even though they are difficult, they allow you to get better without having to go through 10 piss easy levels to get back to where you were.
@jjtheenton
5 жыл бұрын
2:02 I'd like to point out that there *is* a somewhat justifiable reason for many NES games functioning like arcade games despite the lack of coin feeding, and that's game length. Limited technology only allowed for so much space, which is why games can be completed in less than an hour with enough skill. On top of that, games were often just as expensive as they are today, if not even more, before all the inflation that's occurred since then, so developers really needed to pad out the play time with punishing elements. This doesn't change that these are bad design philosophies, but developers had to work with what they were given at the time. Anyway, a modern game that I'd argue has captured the old-school difficulty without adopting outdated design is Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze. The platforming challenges are hard, but never unfair, as the game drip-feeds players the mechanics across a stage before throwing them all together for a final test of skill. Lives are incorporated, but the game provides so many of them that it takes a sufficient lack of skill to actually run out of them -- that and it's basically necessary for the co-op, as lives are shared. It also has the bonus levels that offer no checkpoints, as well as Hard Mode, which allows no partner, no checkpoints, no help items, and only one hit, allowing players craving that punishing difficulty to indulge in it. It's a master of its craft.
@Kylora2112
5 жыл бұрын
I remember borderline speedrunning Mega Man 2 in around 35 minutes as a kid to show off, or running Contra without the Konami code and playing through the game 3 or 4 times on a single life to show friends that Contra was possible without cheats. I got a feeling of accomplishment from beating games everyone said were hard. Some games like Blaster Master and Metroid suffer from a lack of in-game maps (especially since both have a TON of backtracking and nothing really tells you what items do until you start messing around; I love Blaster Master Zero on Switch, though...it fixes most of the design issues with the NES game) I feel like a lot of modern games are "invest 15 hours into playing our interactive movie and nothing really stands in your way." A cool premise like Prototype was ruined by the game being so friggin' easy.
@Kraigon42
5 жыл бұрын
As I understand it, many games were also developed with the rental market in mind. You could rent a game for, what, I guess a week? (I have no experience renting anything) but that wasn't likely enough to let you beat it, and it might just make you thirsty for more, leading you to buy the game instead, which meant more money in both the pockets of the video store and the game company.
@Eichro
5 жыл бұрын
I find that all Donkey Kong Country games have a perfect difficulty curve.
@exantiuse497
5 жыл бұрын
The game technology issue excuse would work, if it weren't for games like Mario Bros. 3 and Legend of Zelda that were good games, gratifying experiences and definitely worth the price, all without resorting to cheap tactics to artificially increase the playtime. Most of the time the real reason was that making games with sufficient playtime was hard and artificially lengthening it with unfair deaths and limited lives was easy. And whether or not hardware issues *were* the issue they definitely aren't an issue now, so bringing back outdated NES era concepts for the sake of it like some gamers ask for makes no sense
@termeownator
5 жыл бұрын
@@Kraigon42 I thought the gaming industry hated the rental market and even tried to have legislation passed prohibiting the renting of games...
@DunkeysLongLostSon
5 жыл бұрын
Those aren't "glitching pixels" in the way of Bethesda glitches. It's a fundamental NES limitation.
@SimpleAmadeus
4 жыл бұрын
No, it's the same thing. Bethesda glitches are just fundamental Bethesda limitations.
@thejedisonic67
4 жыл бұрын
@@SimpleAmadeus Naw thats just Bethesda rushing out one product after the next. Isn't that right Skyrim "remaster"
@thejedisonic67
4 жыл бұрын
@Adrián B.V. Bethesda does
@thejedisonic67
4 жыл бұрын
and so does Bamco if we're taking about dark souls remastered
@quorrafromtron
4 жыл бұрын
But to be fair, the flicker can be avoided by using good game design. The flicker is caused by too many sprites in one horizontal lines, so if the game designers just avoid this, the problem won't occur. However, this most likely was very difficult to replicate consistently in a game, and so coming full circle, the flicker was indeed a hardware limitation. You're welcome for wasting your time reading this just to tell you what has already been said. :)
@MrPsychosheep
5 жыл бұрын
One thing you neglected to mention about NES games that I feel makes a difference- you can often earn extra lives through finding secrets or score. This turns lives into a resource management system rather than a set number of tries, and NES games were often balanced around that. Is it worth it to farm a live or two to prevent a game over? Do you need to find all the secrets to get further, or is it better to not waste lives trying to find them? Lives and checkpoints on the NES encouraged mastery of a section that I just don't feel modern games do, and it feels disingenuous to describe them as a limited continue system when often, finding ways to generate more lives was an entertaining risk vs reward decision.
@snomangaming
5 жыл бұрын
You know what that is actually a good point, or like knowing where the hidden wall chicken is in Castlevania, like if you know all those secrets you'll do much better
@MrPsychosheep
5 жыл бұрын
@@snomangaming Exactly! How many NES games had 1ups in plain sight, but requiring a risky play to acquire them? At an early point in your mastery of the game it may not be worth going for these lives, as you'll die trying to grab them, but once a player develops in skill, they become much more attractive and allow the player to progress further. The player asks themselves, is it worth the risk? Should I go for it? THAT is a strength of a lives system; optional challenge for meaningful reward.
@alexlee4154
5 жыл бұрын
I played and beat castlevania 1 for the first time recently and can say it is an incredibly tightly designed game, there is a moment just before the fight against death where you have to move forwards, fight the axe throwing knight dudes and avoid medusa heads at the same time and its actually thrilling Its life system is excellent, you get 3 tries to make it through the stage where you get to restart from a checkpoint otherwise you go back to the start of the stage but the stages are reasonably short The final boss though is the ultimate test because dracula can only actually move and shoot He is really predictable but also quite hard to fight, but you get the unbroken rythm and finally win and its amazing Also i would disagree with you about committed jump arcs because castlevania 1 is designed around them very well You have a very specific toolset designed exactly for the job I played through 1,2,3,4, and rondo of blood and id say 1 is probably in the running for best becase its so much tighter than 3 and 4. though rondo of blood is probably my favourite, the fact that it competes so well with its successors has to say something
@booski1865
5 жыл бұрын
Just beat Castlevania 1 for the first time recently too, and my Lord that lead up to Death is brutal. Probably took me the longest of any part of the game, except maybe Dracula himself. Overall I'd say the game feels pretty fair, only questionable thing is being able to die after killing the boss (which happened to me against Death at least once) but even that I could see making an argument for. Great game. Overall I prefer 4, but mostly for the atmosphere and the extended length. (Still need to play Rondo). Btw, I'm guessing from your post you prefer classic Vania to the exploration ones?
@alexlee4154
5 жыл бұрын
I only played rondo about a month ago, not got around to the explory ones but i am a big post super metroid metroid fan 4 was great fun, my favourite bit of 4 is the boss rush leading up to death because its high challenge but really easy to try again Also the music is great, just dont think its quite as good as rondo I think im used to the dying after bosses thing from mega man 1, i get how it annoys people but its never really bothered me because i dont consider it a win until you lose control of the character
@booski1865
5 жыл бұрын
@@alexlee4154 yeah Metroid is my favorite series (and Super is my favorite game), but for Castlevania I prefer the classic style. If you haven't played it I recommend Bloodstained Curse of the Moon. Great spiritual successor to Castlevania 3.
@alexlee4154
5 жыл бұрын
@@booski1865 Ill write it down
@henriquebitencourt5253
5 жыл бұрын
Simon Belmot is so slow that it hurts
@danielbueno8474
5 жыл бұрын
1:22 *"So let me state my FECES upfront."* When the guy admits he's talking shit.
@caption.panic9869
5 жыл бұрын
Wait, so you're telling me a 30 year old game is going to look like a 30 year old game?
@slojcabronas858
5 жыл бұрын
Many people can't understand that until you say it to them
@ArmadilloJohn
4 жыл бұрын
yeah. basicly.
@DgkYogi
4 жыл бұрын
Caption.Panic 98 you missed the point
@scapegraceirl
4 жыл бұрын
funny how if you take one minute to actually watch the video, he says that lol
@uwnbaw
4 жыл бұрын
It's like Roses are red Information is a fact UTI is the infection of the urinary tract
@BananabroJr
5 жыл бұрын
Mega Man, they did the isolation techniques for almost ever enemy, very few random enemies most trigger when your near them, game over only made you replay the stage but you keep all the beaten ones and power ups. Etc
@jopdancing7320
5 жыл бұрын
Most classic games enemies demand the attention of players and patience and rushing well get you a game over you need to pay attention 'case most old games are like 1 or 2 hour long so rushing is pointless.
@MosoKaiser
5 жыл бұрын
My thoughts as well! That segment of Gutsman's stage with the conveyor platforms shown near thr start of the video is a prime example. First the player is shown how the platform folds away when passing over a gap in the track, next you need to jump when it happens for your platform, then you need to jump down to the bottom platform and avoid its folding as well. Granted, MM1 _is_ easily the most 'NES hard' of the NES series, but that's likely due to the developers not yet having having polished the MM formula (e.g. it still has traits from arcade games, like the totally pointless score system), which would be pretty much crystallized in the very next installment.
@KoolRanch
5 жыл бұрын
Plus, the levels are pretty short, a game over feels more like a slap on the wrist to me.
@NoeLPZC
5 жыл бұрын
Except for enemies that jump up at you out of pits and ALWAYS knock you into them. Those things can fuck off.
@mapopi-mm
5 жыл бұрын
What you call "Glitchy pixels" and "lack of polish" are actually limited sprites that the memory allowed. These were actually pretty clever tricks, if you had X limit, and wished to show X times 2, you had to "flicker" between them each frame. Wish games these days were that optimized.
@starrysock
5 жыл бұрын
Clever or not, it doesn't change the fact that they are still flickering, and it does still look pretty wonky. It's basically compromising one aspect for another after all Can't really blame him for saying they look bad, since the reasoning behind the flicker doesn't change how it looks Also since this is compromising graphics for the sake of performance and not so much optimizing code, the modern equivalent of this would basically be removing polygons and shaders until everything looks like a Nintendo 64 character. The coding is where most games need the optimization, reducing texture resolution and polycount is easy in comparison, it's just most people have decided they'd prefer their games look a little better at the cost of them not being able to run on 20 year old PCs
@Slash0mega
5 жыл бұрын
@@starrysock ok, im sorry, i get what you are trying to say, but you are flat out wrong, no amount of "coding magic" can fix these problems, because it is HARDWARE ISSUES! there was litterally nothing you could do to optimize code to stop flicker, as its how the nes was BUILT, what you are saying is like saying "you could have made gameboy games look better, just add color!" (and no, game boy color dosn't count cause its new hardware, not "coding magic") also, they DO remove polygons and shadders until things look like n64 characters, even the n64 did it! its called level of detail, or LOD. if things are far enough away from the camera to not matter as much, they switch to lower polygon versions to save rendering power, and lets not forget that lowering graphics to make up for lack of hardware has been a pc staple since the beginning of time. even doom let you play in a tiny window to allow even proto-potatos play. the only way to push past a hardware limitation would be to include hardware on the cartrage, (its now the snes got 3d out star fox) but as one can assume including a graphics card with every game is not the most cost effective thing in the world.
@starrysock
5 жыл бұрын
@@Slash0mega I think you've misread my comment. Again, doesn't matter why these sprites are flickering, you can say it looks bad and still be valid. You can call the gameboy being monochrome ugly too, because again, your impressions of something don't change because of the justification behind it. That doesn't mean the justification isn't valid either, but I can still say McDonal's food tastes crappy even though the crappy ingredients also allow it to cost next to nothing in exchange The second part of my comment is exclusively referencing modern games too. Mauricio said that he wishes modern games were this optimized, so I said the equivalent is "removing polygons and shaders" in general, not just at far distances, because in NES games it's not just unimportant objects that flicker. Also the thing with PC graphic settings are that there's only so much you can practically do with them. Old N64 games are built around things like low poly terrain and no physics simulations, so using a standard slider like you would for decreasing texture resolution only works up to a point. After that you run into issues like missing polygons, unreadable textures, etc, and extra work has to be put in just to accommodate for that. However, most people who enjoy playing games have at least somewhat decent computers, so it's not worth the effort when that development time could be better put to use elsewhere. Ultimately that doesn't matter though, because that's not what I was talking about. My point is that most people generally prefer games to look decent rather than majorly compromising graphics to get there, so after a certain point, optimization has to come from elsewhere
@Slash0mega
5 жыл бұрын
@@starrysock perhaps, its just to me the second half of your comment read "they should have just optimized the code instead of reducing graphics." side note, they do the reduce graphics for the whole game on modern games too, but you point of "it will upset the the consumer" stands strong if you remember the whole watchdogs fiasco.
@loreermejo
5 жыл бұрын
I agree, some of the tricks back then were really clever. Specially if you think that you needed to fit the entire game in less than 1 MB, and could just resolve to 2 kB of RAM! Without the limitations, programs are actually getting bigger than they need to nowadays, so it's funny: the more you go forward with technology the more resources you will need to do the exact same thing, so you still seem to meet the same limits. It's insane how disproportionate the tech advancement has to be just so that we can actually see an improvement in how the program feels.
@KnobleSloth
5 жыл бұрын
The games were hard not because they were trying to emulate arcade, but because they were short. Imagine spending $50 on castlevania and beating it in under an hour.
@Harrinsain
5 жыл бұрын
is that really an excuse? (also you can beat Castlevania in under an hour)
@jopdancing7320
5 жыл бұрын
and don't forget rental store
@joeberg3317
5 жыл бұрын
Yeah, it struck me as very odd this wasn't mentioned. It was implied to just be an overlooked holdover from arcade-era days, which struck me as wrong and made me think the same thing.
@Ruudos
5 жыл бұрын
True that's why the comparison with Shovel Knight isn't really fair, that's a long game. I actually think Contra would be worse if it had unlimited continues.
@ShinoSarna
5 жыл бұрын
@Ningen It's not 'artificial' difficulty. It'd be artificial difficulty if it didn't require skill - but this way, it requires *mastery* of the early stages. This is opposite of artificial difficulty.
@deus8133
4 жыл бұрын
heres a rough chart of every comment 100% : the flicker in the old game wasnt a lack of polish, it was hardware limitations. 0% :
@nobby5492
4 жыл бұрын
Deus also that mega man games are well designed and aren’t as bad as other nes games
@thomtom3070
4 жыл бұрын
Shift Dash he didn’t say they were bad
@Mqstodon
4 жыл бұрын
@@nobby5492 well designed? Not really. Like the part where you fall down and those yellow lasers try to kill you? That's not fair or well designed at all since it's jusr trial and error
@prisonmike4749
4 жыл бұрын
@@nobby5492 mega man 1 is horribly designed.
@IlSH2
3 жыл бұрын
you forgot the 5% r3 tards commenting on how the comment section percentage consist on
@houndwolfdesign2830
5 жыл бұрын
Flickering graphics on NES were a programming hack to add more sprites on the screen than the hardware could handle. That's not an example of bad programming or a lack of polish, it's an example of pushing the hardware to the absolute limit successfully.
@MrMarinus18
5 жыл бұрын
Flickering was also a bit less of an issue on CRT screens which always did that anyway and the result could be much, much worse on VHS tapes so people were used to it. Sinking money into fixing something most people wouldn't notice anyway is thrown away money.
@goldfish6525
5 жыл бұрын
Yes because making everything on screen disappear and reappear every 2 seconds is "successful".
@chasef1077
5 жыл бұрын
MrLowVolt yeah cause everybody wants to see flickering opponents. OUTSTANDING!
@korinoriz
5 жыл бұрын
@@goldfish6525 Yeah, it sucks, but did you not read the comment. It's because of the hardware it had to flicker. So, yes it's "successful", otherwise there wouldn't be as much sprites on screen.
@goldfish6525
5 жыл бұрын
@@korinoriz It's not like it's a good thing that had to happen.
@Eshiay
5 жыл бұрын
Something to note is that Shovel Knight & Hollow Knights punishments add variety to play, Shovel Knight adding another risk/reward system with gold placements and Hollow Knight with a potentially annoying enemy in some situations. Makes dying not just repeating the same thing over but better this time.
@Eshiay
5 жыл бұрын
Well that got more attention than I thought it wou--- no comments or input? Aw was looking forward to that. Also DAMN saw some of the comments section. As a fellow designer more used to games reminiscent of the 80s-90s rather than the games that inspired them, I'll have to agree with most of the points simply for the reason that annoying a player isnt a good thing. Sure you can tolerate that part of the game and still enjoy it, but you can't say that annoyance was contributing to the fun you had while playing it. Satisfying as it may be to beat such a game, something I like saying from the veins of Alan Watts: *Games are not a Journey.* You play games, you dont work games. It's not supposed to feel like a job that where you feel great when you get to the weekend. Games are supposed to be playful, the act of playing should be fun in itself. Bit of a controversial belief. Maybe that'll get some discussion rolling idk.
@blackpants7385
5 жыл бұрын
@@Eshiay Now have this thought: what if I want to go on a journey? What if rather than leisurely read and stuff my face with wine in Athens, I'd fight for my life and conquer victory in Sparta? I guess it's easier to say some games just aren't for everyone. Not everyone sees adversity the same, and people are diverse in their values and beliefs.
@Kylora2112
5 жыл бұрын
I remember beating Ninja Gaiden, Contra, and Castlevania I and III when I was 9. I was a goddess among my friends at school. Beating old school NES games was a thrill. They had to be hard because otherwise you'd be dropping $50 on a game that you could otherwise beat in under 2 hours. It was also a way to get people renting games repeatedly ("I didn't beat it last week, so I'll try it again!").
@simoncobian2816
5 жыл бұрын
It's funny how I'll remember many things from the old games, but the modern stuff is just forgotten. It could be age and all that
@KapitanPazur1
5 жыл бұрын
@@simoncobian2816 Its almost like NES games was respecting your time and skill you put into them and modern games does not because you just finish them and forget. RIGHT SNOWMAN? HOWS THERE FINISHING DARK SOULS FOR YOU? I BET YOU LEARN A LOT FROM PLAYING IT AND YOU DIDNT HEAVY PUSH FROM BONFIRE TO BONFIRE IN HEAVY ARMOR AND SHIELD LIKE A SCRUB!!!!
@FlOuRiShFrIeDeR
5 жыл бұрын
"Hey, I have beaten Super Mario Bros 3 with the warp whistle" good job, much research, such knowledge
@turtleanton6539
5 жыл бұрын
@CAWF Network looool
@NeverEverTM
5 жыл бұрын
@CAWF Network "Is BEttER SavE ProGrEss ThaN LosIng It DUuUHuh" Snowman
@dapperfan44
5 жыл бұрын
@CAWF Network I beat it with save states too, kinda. I didn't save scum, I saved it only when I quit playing.
@Alianger
5 жыл бұрын
It's kinda funny that it's the SNES version and he still used save states, but I guess this is the average modern gamer for ya.
@magnusnilsson9792
5 жыл бұрын
Using a wistle is like, using the konami code, just stock up on lives by collecting coins at a world 7 castle using a P-switch.
@elkarlo1593
5 жыл бұрын
I think Balloon Fight has fair challenge. The enemies are as limited in movement as you are, and you can choose to kill them off when they're weak, or wait for them to get their balloons back so you can pop them for more points, the fish only appears when you get too close to the water, and the stars are one hit kills but they always move the same way and you can see when and where they're going to appear before they can kill you. But it's Balloon Fight. Your only reward is points.
@BenderBendingRodriguezOFFICIAL
5 жыл бұрын
Nothing wrong with points, games were very arcade like back then. I love balloon fight, I can get pretty far but I've never actually beaten it. Games don't need to be super technical or in depth to be fun, playing a game like that basically shows what I mean.
@CandyMali9
5 жыл бұрын
Having zero nostalgia for the NES, Balloon Fight is actually one of the handful of games I can enjoy today
@YourVideoEssaysSuck
5 жыл бұрын
Literally the only reason I clicked on the video was because of the thumbnail. I was so outraged that mega man and duck tales and Castlevania were in The same picture as the words “Bad Game Design”. But then I calmed down, went to sleep... then woke up and realized i hadn’t eaten for 2 days Got the tummy situated now. I give the video a 7.5/10 IGN
@seancolletti7973
5 жыл бұрын
This is an incredibly underrated comment.
@sanspapyrus9564
4 жыл бұрын
7.8/10 too much bad game design
@uwnbaw
4 жыл бұрын
DAMN./10 stummy hurt too much water
@coolbeans7z539
4 жыл бұрын
Same. I have a lot of nostalgia from ducktales remastered so I saw the vid and was like (Is mY cHiLDhoOd rUinEd?) Then I watched the video. Decent enough explanations.
@lob5645
5 жыл бұрын
Part of the appeal of lives systems for me is that they mean you have to get consistent with playing the whole game well, or at least a decent part of the game before you can actually beat it. To me this is more fun than just spamming infinite checkpoints/savestates at a brick wall until you happen to clear it once and then move on to the next brick wall, never having to think about earlier parts of the game ever again. Sure, modern games that use lives systems should make an effort to make collecting lives actually meaningful, and provide the player with some ways to make each playthrough of previous sections different from the last, but to dismiss lives systems as inherently outdated is just kinda dumb imo.
@diskpoppy
5 жыл бұрын
100% agree with you. It's much more intense and satisfying this way. It means that you have to actually improve at the game, not just grind the same section again and again. When you play this way, it's way more fun, especially when a game is deep enough so you can find new stuff in earlier stages and even warps, alternative routes or power-ups to make the problematic section easier. When he told he used savestates to beat SMB3 I shook my head.
@therapeface4153
5 жыл бұрын
I think lives create that same problem. The player just throws their lives at every new level, while starting from the beginning when they run out, then having more lives to throw at the level.
@PabbyPabbles
5 жыл бұрын
By the time I was able to beat Ninja Gaiden, the only level where I lost any lives was the last one. In one afternoon, my noob ass was forged into an always forward dashing ninja speedrunning machine, and I don't even speedrun games. Can't have that with modern checkpoints.
@Dracomut
5 жыл бұрын
Agreed, I think the real problem is a lot of games misuse life systems.
@DevineInnovations
5 жыл бұрын
When you breeze through levels that felt impossible before with no added advantage except experience, that's a kind of thrill you don't get in modern games.
@epicsause21
5 жыл бұрын
Issues: 1: Sprite flickering was actually a solution to a hardware issue. Each sprite was 8 pixels horizontally and 8 or 16 pixels vertically. If there were more then 8 sprites on the scanline, the 9th sprite and onward will not draw. So devs would alternate the sprite priority every frame, which caused the sprite flickering. 2. You warped to world 8 you cheater. No wonder it was hard, you skipped passed 6 1/2 worlds.
@redpup6931
4 жыл бұрын
And _how long is SMB3?_
@spongebobplushiestuff8612
4 жыл бұрын
He actually beat smb3 before, so, yeah, that point was mute, plus he said it was fun
@ashadeofblue6815
4 жыл бұрын
@@spongebobplushiestuff8612 Yeah he said it was really hard but fair he was praising SMB3
@mixa5228
8 ай бұрын
Bruh warping is not a cheat code. Is a route that game let you pick.
@devastatheseeker9967
5 жыл бұрын
Some of the games of nes were designed to emulate arcades but the difficulty thing in lots of games wasn't artificial difficulty but artificial lengthening
@thegrayghost1786
5 жыл бұрын
Artificial lengthening by using artificial difficulty.
@devastatheseeker9967
5 жыл бұрын
@@thegrayghost1786 artificial difficulty is when you limit the player by increasing or decreasing stats. The levels in say super mario were genuinely difficult but because of the life system you were sent back to the start which artificially lengthened the game. Artificial difficulty would be if you had to bonk goomba 50 times instead of once to kill them
@thegrayghost1786
5 жыл бұрын
@@devastatheseeker9967 I disagree with your definition. I define it as when instead of offering a fair challenge, the game will introduce mechanics designed to annoy the player and kill them. Health sponging is one method, but another example is like in Castlevania and Ninja Gaiden where they'll have a bunch of tight platforming sections with bottemless pits and a shit ton of enemies designed to specifically knock the player into the pits with the atrocious knock back mechanic. Games designed as well as Mario aren't abundant on the NES. Most games are designed to be hard as shit to pad out the game.
@devastatheseeker9967
5 жыл бұрын
@@thegrayghost1786 yes but they're legitimately hard. It's not like a boss where you're forced to chip away at a gigantic health pool and only die because it takes you out in one shot. The ancient dragon in dark souls 2 is a prime example of artificial difficulty. One of the easiest bosses in the game but because it has such a huge health pool and does insane damage it makes it "hard" that's artificial difficulty. Yes castlevania and such do have tight jumps and stuff but that's more so a test of skill, hence it not being artificially difficult. Artificial difficulty is when you're faced with an obstacle that isn't difficult but is made difficult via numbers
@thegrayghost1786
5 жыл бұрын
@@devastatheseeker9967 No, that isn't legitimate difficulty. Placing enemies in bs locations to knock you into an instakill pit when the controls are so stiff is not legitimately difficulty.
@gonkdroidincarnate4237
3 жыл бұрын
“You misunderstood me I didn’t say ALL NES games!” *Put footage of Castlevania, DuckTales, Megaman, Ninja Gaiden, Contra etc. As well as in the thumbnail*
@VodkaVodoka
5 жыл бұрын
Dude, even the original Spyro had saves. Several PS1 games did, so I'm not sure what kind of games your wife is remembering.
@dapperfan44
5 жыл бұрын
And there were some that had passwords as an extra method of saving. I own two of those, Crash 1 and Croc 1.
@Senordisastermaster
5 жыл бұрын
Maybe he misheard or misinterpreted his wife. Or maybe his wife never saved as a kid (I don't know how it works, since I never played Spyro). But he relied on that information and put it in a video. Without fact-checking. And without research.
@dapperfan44
5 жыл бұрын
@@Senordisastermaster (Reignited saves automatically across all three games.) In the original Spyro, you can save whenever you rescue a dragon. Standing on a dragon marker initiates a prompt to save, and you can do this with any dragon you rescue. Spyro 2 and 3 automatically save when you enter or exit a level. None of the games make you start over if you lose all your lives if you don't have a memory card.
@astrograph7875
5 жыл бұрын
I’m pretty sure his wife is talking about NES/SNES/Genesis games. I thought it was kinda obvious......
@DexDexter0
5 жыл бұрын
@@dapperfan44 my assumption is that his wife didn't have a PS1 memory card
@robrobusa
4 жыл бұрын
“Bethesda ain’t got nothin on this!” - Fallout 76 would beg to differ.
@absolutez3r019
5 жыл бұрын
i like at 7:57 he says it's funny that games were released with this little polish. as opposed to games now which are released half done and the other half is released as an expensive DLC or very large updates(betrhseda). Or "Big Rigs:Over The Hill Racing"
@hideofreakingkojima5457
5 жыл бұрын
It's not the amount of polish of the game, it's simply the limitations of the NES.
@absolutez3r019
5 жыл бұрын
@@hideofreakingkojima5457 yeah i meant to clarify a little bit more. The NES could only do so much with an 8 bit processor and just a few Megabits for game size. Companies like bethseda have no excuse for crippling glitches. In Fallout 3( which is my favorite of the bunch) has the most bizarre glitches. In one play through all the non-human enemies were deathclaws. In another, my characters arms disappeared and everything became hostile towards me
@hideofreakingkojima5457
5 жыл бұрын
@@absolutez3r019 I never understood why people think those glitches were considered "indearing", especially the ones that ruins your progress.
@uzimonkey
5 жыл бұрын
I particularly like it how he complains about "glitching graphics" and complaining that the developers need to fix this before release, but what he was showing was sprite flicker due to a hardware limitation. It was an expected and accepted artifact of the 8-bit era, they were doing the best with what they were given.
@stephanreiken9912
5 жыл бұрын
All examples were more polish than Fallout 76.
@vocalcalibration8033
5 жыл бұрын
I think "bad" game design isn't really fair here. "Dated" is the word you're looking for. A lot of these games are not good by todays standards, but the difference between an outright bad game and a dated game is that if you get you mind out of the headspace of comparing it to games made after 30 years of trial and error have occurd these games can still be a lot of fun. Hell, the Megaman games are still considered classics, and for good reason.
@Descro382
5 жыл бұрын
Yes. This.
@THE_BEAR_JEW
5 жыл бұрын
I was gonna say the same thing. Not only are they not bad game design, they may be better game design than today's. Just the music alone and the creative nature of all those games are head and shoulders above many from today. How many post apocalyptic games do we have now? Military shooters? Zombies? It's the same shit. Also hard to name a game with memorable music these days.
@BobblesFlopolopogus
5 жыл бұрын
@@THE_BEAR_JEW Kingdom Hearts, Halo, Rayman: Legends, Dark Souls, and we can continue on and so forth. Those orchestral pieces aren't 8-bit ass clouds calling themselves music either. It's not hard to have good OST's at all.
@keaton5101
5 жыл бұрын
he did mention that they also had good game design. he was just focusing on the bad parts
@dolphinboi-playmonsterranc9668
5 жыл бұрын
True. It's not like they had the technology or memory space to add saves to Mario and shit.
@Jamesthe1
2 жыл бұрын
That "flicker" is better explained in the development of Micro Mages: the NES can only have a certain number of sprites on screen. To render more, they cycled through each one.
@BrettLane256
Жыл бұрын
Snowman: a good example of a retro homage is Shovel Knight. *Proceeds to mention all the stuff Shovel Knight got from Mega Man, despite showing a lot of disdain for Mega Man up to this point*
@joshuastein3789
5 жыл бұрын
"It's all about not having any setbacks and just forward progress. Except I also don't want too many checkpoints, because then it doesn't feel like I accomplished anything. But I also prefer save states. Also none of that matters and it's actually all about enemy placement and I have no idea what I'm talking about."
@goldfish6525
5 жыл бұрын
He would save state at the beginning of a level but probably not in the middle so he still had a checkpoint but not to many so he actually felt like he acomplished something... you should really think about what you say before writing it and just assuming he contridicts himself.
@Alianger
5 жыл бұрын
He does say that the higher challenges should be more optional (and just beating the game should be a moderate challenge without bullshit moments), like the checkpoints in SK or collecting in some other games.
@ZeldagigafanMatthew
5 жыл бұрын
These days, more and more games are being designed with accessibility in mind. This includes more save points, such as being able to save at will on the overworld map(s) in Super Mario Bros games. Design for accessibility, but have extraneous challenges in the game for the more skilled players. Also, don't insult players who need this assistance by calling your assist mode something like "chicken hat".
@ashadeofblue6815
4 жыл бұрын
Oh yeah how he DARES exposing diferent points to argue
@koopabound6481
4 жыл бұрын
Zeldagigafan Are you referring to MGS5?
@DavidRomigJr
5 жыл бұрын
Nintendo’s quality control, despite some of its annoyances, at least made it so NES games were possible to beat, even those that were “NES hard”. I remember some pre-NES games being impossible to beat.
@KuroNoTenno
Жыл бұрын
Too bad said quality control didn't mean shit, when it came to actual quality of a game.
@bartelvandervelden9894
Жыл бұрын
@@KuroNoTenno it meant a lot if you place it in the context of the videogame crash right before the NES. The quality control made sure games actually worked on the systems, which wasn't a given in the years before the crash
@KuroNoTenno
Жыл бұрын
@@bartelvandervelden9894 Yeah, the problem is that they still put it on garbage.
@rtmclean484
Жыл бұрын
Silver Surfer(NES) disagrees
@wyldelf2685
11 ай бұрын
There are questionable NES games, silver surfer, Battletoads saga , Ninja Gaiden Trilogy , DuckTales, and first TMNT , , , "here 8year old kid , play one of these games and defeat it in less than 4 days "
@hobbesip1
5 жыл бұрын
The first Legend of Zelda on the 8 bit NES was fair. You had a map to navigate, clues to find secrets, we're introduced to new abilities progressively, and all enemies with predictable patterns. It was a well rounded game that just took time, skill, resource management and a little knowledge.
@magnusnilsson9792
5 жыл бұрын
It's biggest flaws is the translation of the clues, which makes them extremely vague, then again as a kid I barely knew English and certainly not Japaneese. Especially in Zelda II, I had to use a dictionary for the word "fellow" (yes, it was before internet)
@hashvendetta7226
4 жыл бұрын
@@isaiahmillard9014 it inspired dozens and dozens of games... What the hell are you even talking about? That doesnt mean it was the first game to do these things, but it was the first to do them all right. It was just a hard act to follow.
@hashvendetta7226
4 жыл бұрын
@@isaiahmillard9014 those 2 games came out the same year. One isn't derivative of the other. Zelda is definitely the more accessible of the 2. Its completely understandable that more people would have picked it up. Crystalis is a fantastic game that only recently started getting the praise it deserves, but you can't even pretend that it doesn't take ques from the zelda series, along with games like dragon warrior. I'm not sure why you'd be upset about this. Zelda is a great game, whether you like it or not.
@acoolduckinabanana7274
4 жыл бұрын
Ok but if you’re going to put ducktales, castlevania, and mega man next to the words “bad game design” you’re just asking for hate Not hating just saying lots of people will get mad
@cassandraking6603
4 жыл бұрын
Not from me, i never liked those games....or the cartoon ducktales.
@AllGamingStarred
3 жыл бұрын
@@cassandraking6603 blasphemy!
@gonewiththemilk-1999
3 жыл бұрын
Agreed
@gangstasteve5753
3 жыл бұрын
what point in the video does he say those are bad games?
@acoolduckinabanana7274
3 жыл бұрын
@@gangstasteve5753 he doesn’t, but he put those games right next to the words “bad game design” on the thumbnail
@wedge_one
5 жыл бұрын
The blinking sprites were due to technical limitations. The console could only display a set number of sprites on the screen at the same time, but if you skip some frames on their rendering, you could display other sprites while they're off and so on.
@Zuon94
5 жыл бұрын
Just because it's a console limitation doesn't mean it's pleasant to have in your game. I don't mind NES games as much as this uploader does, but the flickering sprites can't be defended as part of the charm. It is objectively a flaw.
@funtainment777
5 жыл бұрын
@Zuon84 What matters a more about a game, it's complexity by being able to go past console limitations or _now having blinking sprites_ (which in my opinion I like about NES games, I don't know why.)
@Zuon94
5 жыл бұрын
@@marclurr Well, I never blamed Nintendo for anything, but at the time of the NES' release, we already had 16 bit video game hardware in the arcades. Saying that better hardware didn't exist in 1985 is simply untrue. Whether or not it was affordable to the home consumer is a completely different story.
@sabin97
5 жыл бұрын
@@Zuon94 are you sure you wanna compare the nes hardware to an actual arcade machine?!!! are you insane?!!!! do you know the difference in hardware cost?! not to mention that with an arcade machine you could play ONE game(unless it was a neo-geo, which had some weird giant cartridges) and with the nes you have hundreds to choose from....
@Zuon94
5 жыл бұрын
@@sabin97 I already brought up that price is not part of this argument in my previous comment. "The hardware did not exist" is the point I am arguing, and this is objectively false. Adding more restrictions to what "counts" in this argument is simply backpedaling.
@SoulGameStudio
5 жыл бұрын
Hotline Miami is the first example that pops to mind. It was brutal. Had the perfect amount of punishment that built up tension, stakes and provided accomplishment.
@MandrakeHorse
5 жыл бұрын
In contrast, Hotline Miami 2 is full of enemies who shoot you from offscreen or through windows, and most of the rooms take ages to clear due to their size and how easily it is to mess up. Sometimes bigger isn't always better.
@SoulGameStudio
5 жыл бұрын
@@MandrakeHorse Exactly how I felt about it, I couldn't even finish it, got too frustrated at the level design.
@refat17
5 жыл бұрын
The randomization of weapons also makes the restarts unique, which is kind of cool. It also avoids the feeling of needing luck as certain weapons (such as enemy weapons) are consistent, so while there is some randomness, you don't need to rely on the randomness to help you.
@grb_bngr1818
5 жыл бұрын
@@MandrakeHorse Tip 1: Play faster. Tip 2: Play fucking faster.
@cedgamer7080
5 жыл бұрын
@@SoulGameStudio hey didnt expect to see you here! I love your game
@Velocity_Eleven
5 жыл бұрын
I sigh every time I hear the old "lives are artificial difficulty" because that doesn;t make sense. Of course there is something to be said about replaying the same levels multiple times otherwise we wouldn't have the games to that do so with infinite lives. I'm not talking about NES games specifically, but I'm thinking back as a kid playing something like Tearaway Thomas or Gynoug, there is a real thrill being able to play earlier stages better than you were able to before. Getting to the end of level 7 with 4 lives where last time you only had 3? there's a real sense of weight to that. Even in more recent times playing Ducktales Remastered, I adore Extreme mode. I've never actually been able to beat it but each attempt has been exhilarating since every hit matters. The issue is about what is being measured, in the lower difficulties the game sort of reverts everyone to an equal playing field regardless of skill. If you beat a boss by the skin of your teeth or you trounced them, all that matters is "you did it" so the box has been checked off the list. Now my counter example of the exact opposite is Super Meat Boy. Everyone loves Super Meat Boy and I do enjoy the game, but I get bored of it really really quickly. When scale of rewards is diminished, the game becomes a case of "keep playing until you're perfect". Plus if you want to call replaying bits "artificial" then that applies here too surely. If a level consists of "5 jumps" and I keep dying on the 4th and 5th, then why make me do the first 3 jumps every time i die? what exactly is the scale of this issue? if it's a question of playing through 5 seconds of progress 2000 times or playing through 2500 seconds of progress 4 times, I choose the latter (generally speaking of course)
@mistertagomago7974
5 жыл бұрын
You bring up good points sir.
@Velocity_Eleven
5 жыл бұрын
@@mistertagomago7974 ma'am*
@Velocity_Eleven
5 жыл бұрын
@Maurice Smith I don't think older games with lives system were "better" per se but I hate how it's dismissed straight up just cause the games that are made today aren't designed around them... for example I love JRPGs and fighting super optional bosses, and those games wouldn't work with a lives system in the same way
@simoncobian2816
5 жыл бұрын
He likes super meat boy that's why it doesn't matter, you really had to learn a game to beat it. I can still pick up and play Castlevania 3 and get rather far because I can remember how to play it. Why? because I played the heck out it to really understand enemy placement and how to time jumps etc. I remember enjoying the new tomb raider reboot series but I can't really recall it that much because I never had a challenge, beat it and moved on.
@SAClassHunterZero
5 жыл бұрын
Well I mean for starters, it's not mutually exclusive. A game like Super Meat Boy could easily have lives implemented and it would be even more difficult, probably more frustrating. Games can also push you to the limit without having lives at all, look at F-Zero GX for example. Beating that one on Very Hard was my favorite gaming achievement of all time, because all that mattered was "I did it". I wanted to keep going because on each chapter I could jump right back in, play the level, learn it, etc. etc. Just imagining the game having a lives system, pushing me back to the 1st level for dying too much gives me shivers. The original Battletoads on NES is easily in my top 10 games of all time but I fully admit that the lives/continues system is a major deterrent from mastering it. It's pretty basic: I want to master the game, and that means practice. When it takes ages to practice Clinger Winger, the second last level of the game, when I have to spend so long just getting there and then only having so many shots before going back to the beginning, it's a major turn off. I know the rest of the game, I've mastered it up to that point, I just want to cut to the chase and try again but I can't. When I first beat Battletoads I used save states. I would save a state at the beginning of each level and play it over and over again not just until I beat it, but until I could beat it without dying. If this makes me a filthy cheater I guess I'm a filthy cheater.
@zachb1706
4 жыл бұрын
7:56 the NES has a sprite limit, these “glitching pixels” were necessary to have a full field of players.
@leonardo9259
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks dude I couldn't read the other hundred comments saying that same
@beanietasticday
Жыл бұрын
@@leonardo9259 Don’t get frustrated by KZitem comments
@leonardo9259
Жыл бұрын
@@beanietasticday this was 2 years ago, thats 80 years on internet time
@kitmakin289
5 жыл бұрын
Like... I love the Good/Bad Game Design series but I do feel like you maybe put a HUGE emphasis on platformers and puzzle games. Which - I get it - you like those games - that's good.... But I wouldn't mind seeing your takes on a wider variety of games. What makes good/bad game design in say - RPGs? Or Harvest Moon/Stardew Valley-like Farm Sims? What do you think makes a good or bad game design in casual games? Or other types of sim games? Or battle royales (with or without cheese)? Or combat games? This series is amazing... But it has so much potential to cover a much wider breadth of game design and you can kind of only cover platformers so much before you're just rehashing content.
@david2618
5 жыл бұрын
I like playing bullet-hells and fighters Basically brain games
@kitmakin289
5 жыл бұрын
@@david2618 And that's fine. Just saying.... Including maybe all? Multiple genres?
@fluffy_tail4365
5 жыл бұрын
@@kitmakin289 If he doesn't like them and hasn't played them much he might feel that he doesn't have the right experience to talk meaningfully about them (rightfully I would add). I'd prefer him talking with knowledge than a half-assed attempt at something he is not comfortable with.
@Harrinsain
5 жыл бұрын
I can't speak for him (because i'm not him) but i assume that he uses these examples because that's what he's familiar with. Maybe he just doesn't have as much expertise in RPG's 'n stuff as he does in what he does
@kitmakin289
5 жыл бұрын
Fluffy and Harrin you both have great points and I do acknowledge that - but if that's the case - maybe he could expand what he plays? Or invite those who have more experience with those other genres on the show to talk WITH him about what would be classed as good or bad game design in these areas? As it is - he has a great way of presenting his arguments and good structure so it would be really great if he could expand his content here. I know that he prefers the rage-game, platforming, puzzle genre which is fine - but he has a sense for general game design as well (like when he speaks about good sound engineering and use of colour) so slightly more branching out like that could also be good.
@theshitpostassistor155
3 жыл бұрын
When an NES game makes you start over from the beginning of the stage: "BULLSHIT!" When a roguelite makes you start over from the beginning of the entire game: "OMG I'LL BUY TWENTY!" This is what's wrong with the gaming community.
@BigmanDogs
3 жыл бұрын
Wait do you really think you made a point? Have you actually played a roguelike? They implement mechanics that stack over multiple playthroughs. Death is part of the game... Not to mention that basically all roguelikes implement artificially generated maps. on the NES they literally did this most of the time just to artificially extend the game time because they didn't have the budget or skill to make more than 3 levels. Either that or they used game design for arcade games that want you to pay money over and over again. Only difference is you can't do that at home. Hence why games moved away from this even on the SNES. You literally argued against your own point by pointing out how these games handle permadeath differently.
@davidp.7620
5 жыл бұрын
The "come back to the beginning" thing was due to the games being waaaaay shorter than today. The first Super Mario Bros with save states/continues would suck for example!
@Liggliluff
2 жыл бұрын
Well, I don't have much time to play, so I'd prefer not replaying the same thing over and over. The length of the game doesn't matter too much, just that I don't want to redo something I've succeeded. I've played through the first Super Mario Bros with heavy save state use. It's short, but that's fine.
@twolve
4 жыл бұрын
Snoman: "NES Hard is artificial difficallty" Everyone: "OmG sNOmaN dON'T LiKe neS gAMes!!!!!!"
@braden24
4 жыл бұрын
The thing is he’s totally right ab most nes games; a ton of the library is garbage with insane difficulty to increase playtime. However when you constantly show footage of Mega Man, Castlevania, Contra, games that are very good with balancing difficulty, and say that you couldn’t beat fucking Mario 3, then imma call bs sorry
@noukan42
4 жыл бұрын
What is the difference between NES games and roguelike? The fact that the latters have been succesful even in this age makes me think that it's just some people that hate losing progress. Having to play the same thing over and over may not be boring at all if you see it as a challenge to do so better and better. And most of those games have a point system that encourage just that. I'd say that speedrunners enjoy playing the same things 10000 times to bring a number a litle down. Most of the arguments are similarly just a matter of preferences and things that right now felt out of flavor.
@noukan42
4 жыл бұрын
@@7806macca it's not voluntary, it's just that my most played roguelike is Tales of Maj Eyal, that's happen to have a lot of fixed elements.
@marinhoeh3406
5 жыл бұрын
Dude, I suck at Castlevania, Contra, Punchout, and many more. But it’s the difficulty I think that make video games of the past more worthwhile to beat.
@lordsupersucc
5 жыл бұрын
>bad game design >megaman What.
@danielbueno8474
5 жыл бұрын
Burntfires22 yea, sure. So garbage Capcom built an empire because of it, and it is considered one of the most beloved gaming franchises in history.
@lolirocket
5 жыл бұрын
Because it's old duh, anything old is instantly bad because fat millenial hipster said so.
@whereseveryonegoingbingo3265
5 жыл бұрын
@@danielbueno8474 Yup. It's kinda crazy to remember that there was once a time when Capcom used to give Megaman some special treatment. Megaman shouldn't have been a thing since the first game on the NES didn't sell well, but they decided to make a Megaman 2 and it became a huge success. And after that, Capcom put Megaman on a pedestal for many years until around the 2000's when they made way too many Megaman games.
@Spanishdog17
5 жыл бұрын
You going to go into detail, or just leave it at that? You didn't prove your point at all. The video didn't either.
@paine7992
5 жыл бұрын
@Burntfires22 SoybOy cannot beat Mega Man...so it's garbage^^ 😅 😆
@henryadams3503
3 жыл бұрын
"I suck at this game? Bad game design!" - this video
@-Nentah-
3 жыл бұрын
Stop being nostalgia blinded.
@eddtard2686
2 жыл бұрын
@@-Nentah- Stop throwing around the word "nostalgia" as if it's an effective rebuttal. His analysis was lazy and full of conjecture. If you believe people who enjoy old games are "nostalgia blinded", you're narrow minded as the creator of this video.
@Bubbiea
4 жыл бұрын
Gotta love having to play the same game twice to get the true ending in Ghosts n Goblins. What a creative way to extend the length and difficulty of a game.
@Piratejackyar
5 жыл бұрын
Sonic The Hedgehog did difficulty well. It had lives, but a forgiving mechanic for damage in the form of rings. Also, people had fewer games back then so Sonic was designed to be rewarding to replay. People often complain about sonic having enemies and springs that trip you up if you go too fast. This was to reward memorization. The creators imagined people replaying the games and remembering were all the traps were and getting faster and faster. It was designed to be easier and easier each time you played through. This made having to reply levels less of a grind and more of a learning experience.
@pferreira1983
5 жыл бұрын
Sonic unlike Mario got platforming right.
@megahop6858
5 жыл бұрын
fortnite restarts a game if you lose in battle royale fortnite is bad game design confirmed
@jordengg3629
5 жыл бұрын
Fortnite=nes game
@Gnidel
5 жыл бұрын
@@jordengg3629 That's some technical achievement.
@imveryangryitsnotbutter
5 жыл бұрын
Well, Fortnite doesn't actually "restart". Each time a match begins, you're pitted against different players with different strategies, and your starting location is different. So the whole "walk of shame" aspect doesn't exist in Fortnite.
@esayan04
5 жыл бұрын
@@imveryangryitsnotbutter chillll it was a joke
@mixttime
5 жыл бұрын
@@esayan04 I don't think you realize how serious this is. Have you ever tried to spread Fortnite on toast?
@theSato
5 жыл бұрын
While some of the things you said were true, and I can tell your INTENTIONS are good, this logic just doesn't really apply to old NES games. The reason they set you back so far were twofold: for one, renting games was a BIG business back then, and they didn't want people to beat it in a weekend rental - they wanted people to buy the game and really sink their teeth into it. And for two, they wanted to extend the playtime of someone who DID buy it as much as possible - so when they beat the game, its not a feeling of "ah, well, dunno if that 2 hours was worth $50.." but rather "damn, this was quite an arduous adventure and I got a ton of playtime, I feel like I really overcame this monster" Considering just how limited storage space and general tech was at the time, making really long experiences out of pretty much any game you mentioned (e.g. Mario 3) pretty much required some amount of this "bad" game design (or stuff like dragon quest/final fantasy endless amounts of grinding, but that's a whole different kind of bad that wastes the player's time even more.) Sorry but, this was a weak video from you.
@theSato
5 жыл бұрын
Additionally, when you showed off sprite flicker on Tecmo Super Bowl and said "its hard to believe games released with so little polish" .. you kinda just further discredit the point you're trying to make. The sprite flicker is a limitation of the NES from having that many sprites on screen, on those lines - the alternative is intense amounts of slowdown, no programming magic can really overcome that (and if it can, its certainly not an issue of Tecmo Super Bowl being 'unpolished' - its the most polished football game on the system lol)
@gonewiththemilk-1999
3 жыл бұрын
Yeah he has multiple videos were he criticizes a game for it difficulty and then his points end up being kinda weak.
@thechickenlord9825
5 жыл бұрын
I warped straight to world 8 Skill arc: imma bout to end this whole mans career
@jptheberge3016
5 жыл бұрын
Shovel Knight was THE game to teach me that dificulty can be fun and rewarding if fair
@johnlawful2272
5 жыл бұрын
And cup head?
@brnk2
5 жыл бұрын
@@johnlawful2272 most of the time, yes.
@levobertus
5 жыл бұрын
There's a lot of moments where you take damage because there's no way to anticipate it in Shovel Knight, I thought it was pretty frustrating at times.
@Zefar77
5 жыл бұрын
MegaMan games did this as well so this is nothing new. MegaMan X also taught players how the game worked on it's very first stage.
@spongyoshi
5 жыл бұрын
If I need to state a personal example, Punch-Out has the difficulty in it's core mechanisms and man how is it satisfying to understand and triumph of each fighter!
@trupotato
5 жыл бұрын
I admit, sometimes Megaman is a bit cheap. But nothing will ever make me stop enjoying it.
@linusgustafsson2629
5 жыл бұрын
Other parts of megaman is brilliant. In that they give you something easy first, and then later you get the same thing but in a harder version. I never noticed it as a child, but it was really advanced game design back then where they wanted the players to gradually learn and take on challenges when you had some experience.
@jondr
5 жыл бұрын
MM2 and MM3 are still the greatest games of all time.
@stal2496
5 жыл бұрын
Is it just me or is mega mans controls actually shit?
@caramelsunface
5 жыл бұрын
@@stal2496 nah mate ur the only one who thinks that
@stal2496
5 жыл бұрын
@@caramelsunface k
@myrupcat4761
5 жыл бұрын
Wait, weren't these the reasons you were prasing getting over it?
@nachocurds6593
5 жыл бұрын
I believe they were, however; Getting Over It is specifically designed to bring out that feeling, and that's what made it so popular... also, it was pretty M E T A
@aryanarora268
5 жыл бұрын
Getting Over it was supposed to make you rage quit, it is designed to make you supper angry, from the bad controls, to the voiceover that makes fun of you, it is supposed to test your patience, it's a rage game, you chose to play them that way
@silkworm2595
5 жыл бұрын
Doesn't make any sense. What "It's supposed to be" doesn't change what it actually is at the end of the day. If you'll grant and factor in the target audience and culture of people watching KZitemrs make funny faces and noises then you can grant level selecting cheat codes for old games. Yes it's an evil. Whether it's a necessary evil with a goal in mind is another question.
@XrayTheMyth23
5 жыл бұрын
@@silkworm2595 So games that troll you are just genuinely bad instead of being good game design? You must be very enlightened.
@silkworm2595
5 жыл бұрын
@@XrayTheMyth23 No. Read again.
@LucasIsHereYT
2 жыл бұрын
Honestly though, developers sticking to color and musical limitations makes a game in an NES style so much more impressive. Plus, when games say they're, "8 bit," I expect them to ACTUALLY be close to 8 bit.
@High_Priest_Jonko
2 жыл бұрын
Limitations actually enhance creativity. Ever try to write an article where you can choose your own topic? The amount of possibilities can be overwhelming
@Emberson-9000
Жыл бұрын
New games claiming to be 8 or 16 bit almost always disappoint me. The color palettes and limitations of old systems necessitated a lot of creativity, which isn't completely gone nowadays, but it is more boring to look at.
@notorioustim10
5 жыл бұрын
I get where you're coming from, and agree with a lot you say. But I also think a concept such as lives can provide an extra dimension to a game. In Megaman games for example, you're often put to a choice: will you take the riskier route for an extra life? And if you die the first time taking that route, will you try again to break even or cut your losses short? Matter of opinion I guess. I don't think there is a universal standard that games have to adopt.
@PonderingtheNonsense
5 жыл бұрын
Right. I essentially agree with his points, but by his logic, games like Spelunky are terrible experiences because they don't "play fair." And true, I don't think Spelunky is fair, but that's the point--it's not trying to be.
@zanyraccoon6361
5 жыл бұрын
The only thing I didn't like about the lives system in Mega Man was that you could start a Stage with no extra lives. The game should've made sure that you always had a minimum of at least 2 lives upon entering a Stage. Other than that, the lives system was awesome in the original Mega Man games. It made each Stage its own mini-challenge to conquer which all together added up to a nice cohesive whole.
@Keldiur
5 жыл бұрын
@@zanyraccoon6361 I would just walk into a new level at 0 lives and die. There was no penalty at all for continuing other than time, which made the game with 3 lives tough but fair along with like the 5 - 10 minute level design.
@-snek.
5 жыл бұрын
@@zanyraccoon6361 Mega Man 8's Spare Charger .
@CleaveTheDragon
5 жыл бұрын
@@zanyraccoon6361 What was also nice about lives was they helped influenced one of the best aspects of mega man's designs: the selectable bosses. Losing lives and being taken to a menu with Continue or Stage Select helped give you a choice in either trying a stage you might be sick of, or moving on to something else, which helps keep the player from turning the game off and to keep going.
@ViewtifulSam
5 жыл бұрын
7:54 man that's super unfair to developers of back then. Those "glitchy" sprites aren't really glitchy -- the programmers had to actually make them cycle in terms of visibility in order to be able to show that many things on screen at once. (Well, clearly not "at once", but you get it.) It's one thing to say that the games look ugly today, but to say they were unpolished, even though you concede they were under technical limitations, is selling the work of these people way short.
@RAPPTN
5 жыл бұрын
Damn, the thumbnail was click bait and I feel for it. I thought a good argument was going to be made not, “This game is designed badly because it didn’t hold my hand.”
@AaronCMounts
5 жыл бұрын
If that was all you got from the video, then you clearly weren't paying attention.
@JohahnDiechter
4 жыл бұрын
It is like the reviewer here has no idea about hardware limitations and cost of production. The fact that some of these old games are playable at all is due to very good design and hard work. Try to program in bits and see how difficult it can be.
@Myth_or_Mystery76
4 жыл бұрын
ReadySetGo As a programmer, I can’t even imagine. Mad respect.
@radu6772
4 жыл бұрын
Yeah but those are not the main point of the review and he mentions that they're hardware limitations
@radu6772
4 жыл бұрын
@@VapeStation5 well said
@elgatochurro
4 жыл бұрын
@@VapeStation5 these are good games, that made the foundation of many games to come and we enjoy today Dumbass
@undergalaxy775
4 жыл бұрын
@@elgatochurro "I disagree with you, dumbass"
@pizzaboxer
5 жыл бұрын
"there's a reason why the konami code came into existence" yeah it was meant to be a SECRET code that helped the game devs test out any bugs by getting into the game further much easier, and what benefits do these games have of wasting your time? it doesn't make any sense
@redpup6931
4 жыл бұрын
And they decided to keep it in.
@Hyperlingualism
4 жыл бұрын
And that's totally why they left it in and why it wasn't kept secret and everyone knew about it anyway? It started as a debug, sure, but so did a lot of cheat codes going all the way through the N64/PS1 era. Games in that era wasted time to make the game seem a lot longer or more challenging than it was, which clearly and unfortunately worked because people don't remember the bad game design. You save a lot of design hours and work within hardware limitations if you make a game so unfairly difficult that it takes ten times as long as it should to complete it if it were designed well. They also did it as a holdover from Arcade games because home consoles were still new. All people knew about video games were designing for arcade cabinets, where the objective from a designers perspective was making sure that they'll lose and have to try again and balancing it with making the game fun enough that they will come back to try again anyway.
@linclogames
4 жыл бұрын
Love the old school NES games. They were difficult...part of the appeal though. The simplicity in game design is what made these games so special.
@imselfaware419
Жыл бұрын
@@lexyk4226 👆
@wourydiallo1445
Жыл бұрын
@@lexyk4226 bro you seen this man talking shit to anyone ? Stop fighting against a strawman cuz you suck at video games lol
@JohnWolfy
5 жыл бұрын
Talking about experience NES games and beating SMB3 from Super Mario All Stars on SNES using saved states, enough said.
@cookieskoon2028
4 жыл бұрын
NES games don't inherently look "gross". That one was actually legit insulting. Megaman 5 and 6, Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy III, Castlevania III, Super Mario Bros. 3, Willow, Crystalis, Kirby's Adventure, etc. All spectacular looking games on the NES. Just because YOU can't appreciate it doesn't make it "gross". I'd argue that modern gaming's "realistic lighting" and over-designed hyper detailed everything is hard to look at. It all runs together, prompts and text are microscopic, and the lighting is just UGLY. How's that for ya? Also, PLENTY of old games on the NES taught the player in clever ways. Shovel Knight did not invent that.
@acejoker1477
3 жыл бұрын
He didn't say it Shovel Knight invented it he was saying it was an example of a good NES game
@tempest_dawn
5 жыл бұрын
I was actually kind of surprised not to see Celeste mentioned for the opt in b-sides and strawberries.
@snomangaming
5 жыл бұрын
absolutely! Great example
@monchete9934
5 жыл бұрын
Or the assist mode, which is really well implemented
@android19willpwn
5 жыл бұрын
If you look up "hell" in the dictionary there's just a picture of the last screen of 7C
@VanHahstuz
5 жыл бұрын
Cole Erickson Even more when you remember it DOES show up in the video. It's just... Never spoken of.
@lamp9359
4 жыл бұрын
I love how 99% of the comments point to the hardware not being good at the time to criticize the video while the youtuber himself did talk about hardware limitations causing most of the problems in old games. And for those saying the vid looks like a shovel knight ad, it’s really just that the game is a well-known and great tribute to NES games; it perfectly fits in here.
@ECL28E
4 жыл бұрын
The difference is, Shovel Knight is difficult, but through meticulous level-design and the developers actually give a shit.
@IlSH2
3 жыл бұрын
watch out, we have the white knight fanboy over here protecting the dude that doesn't know how to express himself. UC
@theSato
3 жыл бұрын
Problem is, you can't say it's "bad game design" when it's "good game design for the hardware"
@sagichdirdochnicht4653
3 жыл бұрын
@@theSato What? Screen flickering, a limited colour choice and that nonsense was defenetly Hardware limitation. And not being able to safe to an extend as well (in wich case they could have implemented the Password thing). An overly punishing experience, that might let you loose all your progress or at least a lot of it and cheap Deaths, wich most NES Games had plenty, were NOT Hardware limitations. That is simply bad game design. Yeah yeah, first "real" Homeconsoles (Atari and co were before, but those games were extremely simplistic), so they didn't have all that experience and knowledge we have today. So I'm defenetly not mad. And after all, if you leave out those Downsides, those were still incredibly good games. But being old and the first doesn't make you immune to critic. Just learn from the past. What made those games good. And what did suck. Leave out the "what did suck" part, remove the hardware limitations and you got great games for today. I'm currently playing the Messenger. Fantastic game. It can be pretty damn hard, but it is ALLWAYS fair. When I screw up (wich I do very, very often), it was almost allways clearly my own fault. And I don't have to replay XXXXXXXXXXXXX again to come to the part were I failed, just to die again and redo that shit again.
@bwoeYT
3 жыл бұрын
@@ECL28E "Meticulous level design" that shamelessly copied NES design, and this fucking hack is saying that it's some sort of revelation.
@MxMaker
5 жыл бұрын
Expectations: An objetive game by game analysis of why each game have a bad disign and how to improve it. Reality: Randome guy, whining about how old fashion era its dificult and disguise it as an objetive argument. Cmon dude! , Be a player not a poser!
@sethatari6967
5 жыл бұрын
For games like Balloon Fight and Ice Climber it's not about beating the game it's about seeing how far you can go and who gets the best score. I personally think these arcade style games are best played with a friend.
@High_Priest_Jonko
2 жыл бұрын
You know, I never realized getting a high score could be more fun than just beating the game as quickly as possible, until I played IKARUGA
@AngryCalvin
Жыл бұрын
Especially Mario Bros. A blast with 2 players and not so much on your own. Mario Bros was the ultimate party game we played on home computers.
@DillonHinx
5 жыл бұрын
Why would you warp whistle and save state your first playthrough of SMB3? Just play the game and you get rewarded with tons of powerups and extra lives. You also skipped the progressive difficulty built into the game. Using it as an example of game design when you didn't bother to experience any of what the game teaches through playing it is a disservice. I beat it when I was four years old. You can do better. Unless the whole purpose of this video was to game the algorithm by getting us all to interact with it through comments and dislikes.
@snomangaming
5 жыл бұрын
Not my first time playing, I've played it many times. Just never beat it. You misunderstood what I was trying to say. I actually said it has a good balance of challenge and leniency, but I guess you heard what you want to hear
@DillonHinx
5 жыл бұрын
@@snomangaming Right but it seems like you doubled back when you mentioned save stating on current iterations in the interest of time so you could circumvent replaying particularly tricky or arduous stages. I understand that sentiment but SMB3 is a weak example when examining games on console full of jank, especially when the two stages in the given example are literally designed to be the most difficult in the entire game and you're playing deprived of all the extra lives and powerups the rest of the game gives you. It feels like you did that to yourself on purpose just for the sake of the point you're trying to make. After rewatching the video, another issue of contention I have is when discussing how primitive games just emulated the arcade quarter dump design but without the quarters you state that "no money is involved." Money was still involved. SMB3 cost the equivalent of nearly $100 when it was released. I'll fully agree that if I picked up SMB3 for 5 bucks on virtual console and I couldn't get past 8-2 I might just drop it and never play again. But for $100, I'm going to try again if I lose. Jokes about quarter sinks and Fortnite aside, SMB3 was a designed game. It was made to be replayed because even back then no one was going to pay that kind of money for 3-4 hours of entertainment. The lives system in SMB3 might be artificial difficulty sure, but every time you go through the levels there's usually some hidden secrets to find that will increase your chances at the end. There's definitely more to be said about how the value proposition weighs into game design. Anyway thanks for your reply. If you were gaming me for algorithm points than you win because I subbed.
@snomangaming
5 жыл бұрын
Nah I totally feel you on that. If there's one thing that the comments have brought up it's about how short the games are without their difficulty. I still stand by that doesn't mean that they're well designed, but you're correct about extra lives and secrets and whatnot. SMB3 is one of the easier NES games I talk about so that's probably where all the hate came from. I try to be concise in my videos but sometimes that leads to miscommunication of my points. Thanks for watching :)
@DillonHinx
5 жыл бұрын
@@snomangaming Sorry if I was a bit abrasive at first. I should have better considered your position of having to be both concise and relative in the function of a youtube video. To be honest I never thought that I'd get a creator reply on a video with nearly 2,500 comments. Also the topic of the changes that have occurred in the value proposition's impact on video game design over the past 5 decades from coin-op to F2P could easily be a Master's thesis so I don't know what I expected. Cheers dude, can't wait for your next video even if I might not agree with it.
@m0rShh
5 жыл бұрын
It's easy to write off the difficulty of these games if you didn't experience them when they were new and don't understand the context of how they were experienced. In the NES era video games were very expensive, around $100 when adjusted for inflation. Most people weren't buying every single new game that came out, especially not kids, who were the primary audience for those games. You might get one new game on your birthday and one at Christmas, and you would play them all year long. Imagine if you got a brand new game on your birthday and you beat it in a couple of days like most of the games today - that money just went down the toilet and you just have to hope you'll get a new one soon. It's easy to just load up a game on an emulator, play it for two seconds, then decide it's too hard and move on to the next one. Players at the time didn't have that luxury - you had the games that you had, and you got your time and money's worth out of them. Video game design used to be about maximizing value for the consumer, now it's about maximizing profit for the publisher. If you spend too much time on Game A, you're less likely to go out and spend money on Game B when it comes out next month, so you need to see everything in the game as quickly as possible so you can move on to the next shiny new thing that you'll inevitably forget about when the next shiny new thing comes out, ad infinitum...
@UltimaJC
5 жыл бұрын
To be honest there are things in the back of my fridge that have aged more gracefully than 80% of the NES library.
@MapleMilk
5 жыл бұрын
I don't know man I'll take a game of Bayou Billy before a hospital visit But definitely not Action 52. I have standards, after all.
@braden24
4 жыл бұрын
Shadowjc32 course but that %20 of Little Samsons and Mega Mans and Corocons are 👌👌👌
@quadpad_music
Жыл бұрын
Most games for most consoles aren't great, that's not unique to the NES. Have you seen how much shovelware there was for the Wii or the PS2 during their respective lifetimes?
@davidthecommenter
4 жыл бұрын
Boy I wish this was uploaded on April First.
@lochrowley9997
5 жыл бұрын
My problem with this video is that you seem to be implying that there is one right way to go about things, when in my opinion I like a lot of the things you say are wrong, like in having to restart the level from the beginning, you have to beat challenges that you've already beaten which can get annoying, but it also becomes a reminder of your progression, it makes you look back and see how much better you've become, which gives you the motivation to overcome the next challenge. But I dunno… just some of my thoughts.
@ados1280
5 жыл бұрын
Yeah I actually had those same thoughts. I recently played through Castlevania Rondo of Blood and that's what happened. I died a lot but liked how I was getting better and finding more efficient ways to beat the levels. It was a good time. And when I played through it a second time I felt like a badass cause I was blasting through the levels that were giving me such a hard time.
@lochrowley9997
5 жыл бұрын
@@ados1280 Yeah, I mean it's just a matter of what kind of game you like, any rules that apply to one kind of game don't necessarily apply to another, and then sometimes breaking the rules is what makes a game fun.
@Dracomut
5 жыл бұрын
Upon retrospect, a big flaw this video has is lumping all NES games with this kind of design: alongside ignoring the NES games that did things right, the problem with this is that this kind of game design would not go away for quite a few more generations. We got a ton of Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis, TurboGrafix, Gameboy, Nintendo 64, Playstation, and even Gameboy Advance and Playstation 2 games that subscribed to this kind of brutal and unfair game design. It really wouldn't be until the generation of the Wii, PS3, and Xbox 360 when common usage of these games died out completely. To only call out the NES for this seems very unfair.
@okktok
5 жыл бұрын
Dracomut nOt AlL NeS GaMEs
@TheToyTendoGamer
5 жыл бұрын
Literally, your serious? Adding good nes games would defeat the point of the video
@Dracomut
5 жыл бұрын
@@TheToyTendoGamerNo it wouldn't, it would have made the video more informed. He's looked at the good sides of games in bad game design before you know. Plus my point of Snoman lumping NES games togethers stands, he himself changed the title of the video in response to the criticism of fans.
@ZenoDLC
5 жыл бұрын
"It was harder to see what was coming because of the lack of widescreen" Uhh... And make the already small sprites on screen even smaller on an already blurry screen?
@magma1264
5 жыл бұрын
Shovel knight did it just fine, idk what youre on about
@nikkigunn8323
2 жыл бұрын
I think you should watch "how we fit a game into 40kb," where a game studio tried to fit a full game into the original memory limitations of the NES (prior to fancy bank switching cartridges). They don't fit much on those cartridges! Then, bear in mind that each one of these tiny, 40-512k cartridges cost around $50usd ($132usd in 2022). They were bloody expensive. For the average kid, they were only going to get 2, 3, maybe 4 new games per year. The memory limitations combined with the expense put a real conundrum on game developers' shoulders.. Let me ask you this, what do you think it felt like when you got a new game, and you knew it would very likely be the only new game you will get for the next 3-6 months, and you beat it in a single weekend, or even worse, on your very first play through, which dictated by memory limitations, was probably only an hour or two? Feels bad man.. Real bad! Those games got left in the back of the drawer. It was the really tough games that you had to keep practicing over and over, as you hoped one day to master them and actually see the ending that earned a place in gamers' hearts. Without lives systems and hard difficulty, you would see all that a NES cartridge could hold in literal minutes. So no, difficulty and limited lives were not just a "relic of arcade gaming" that persisted for no reason other than developers were not as clever as modern critics. There is a reason the difficult ones are the ones that are remembered and cherished, and the easy games are long forgotten, and no, it's not some universal masichism that every single kid int he 80's was born with.
@undedvet4488
5 жыл бұрын
This genuinely feels like you tried to provide a new perspective on the days of yore but you contradict yourself so much. Things you praise new games for you criticize the old for. Isolation of enemies is in nearly every starting stage of every NES era game. There are exceptions but that only verifies that there is a rule. The lack of computing power back then meant this was how games had to teach back then. The contra code was so you could learn the game without having to replay the same level over and over again i.e. instead of opting into harder difficulty you could opt into the easy mode. You do address some points properly, but you're presenting half truths to make your arguments seem more sound when in reality it makes you look dishonest. Shitting on the visuals of the era really doesn't help your case either. You have to respect what came before, even if its not your cup of tea. You wouldn't have finely tuned and polished shovel-ware if it wasn't for all the creative and unique designs being done during that time period, the fact we even have concepts that you love today is because someone made a rough version back in the day when gaming wasn't pop culture. You wouldn't appreciate someone shitting on your work that was period appropriate just for being old.
@danieldavid3766
5 жыл бұрын
When in the video does he say that NES games are bad for Isolation?
@undedvet4488
5 жыл бұрын
@@danieldavid3766 @ 11:44 he says nes have outdated philosophies but then talks about one of the core concepts of nes era games. Isolation of enemies. A better analysis of older games and how they teach by showing rather than telling is sequelitis megaman by egoraptor. Megaman is a bit unique but several games of the time slowly ramp up difficulty. The exception is contra but contra was more about learning the patterns. And still had roots in arcade games designed to take quarters
@ChaudTheGamer
5 жыл бұрын
snoman isn't any good anymore. he officially lost almost half his subscribers thanks to this video is what I've seen
@kane4228
5 жыл бұрын
Couldn't agree more UndedVet! Cheers mate.
@wschippr1
5 жыл бұрын
Chaud The Gamer What? According to social blade his subscriber count has almost doubled since this videos release.
@rickmoranisstan
5 жыл бұрын
You lost all credibility the moment you said you were using save states to complete SMB3.
@turtleanton6539
5 жыл бұрын
👏👏
@FhargaZ
5 жыл бұрын
Yep, what a noob.
@mortenera2294
5 жыл бұрын
The game is fucking easy, c'mon
@noobeleza7321
5 жыл бұрын
This video should be on Wikihow: 'How to make a video on a subject you don't know nothing about'
@noobeleza7321
5 жыл бұрын
@@thicky3156 It's not an opinion video, he is afirmating things like he know the subject, but clearly he don't, but anyways, thanks for the 'advice' have a good night
@LiberalSquared
3 жыл бұрын
...so, he does know?
@onlinescammer8291
5 жыл бұрын
"I beat super mario bros 3... i warped straight to world 8."
@edgyninja1910
5 жыл бұрын
He did actually beat it legitimately a while back
@josephmarino310
5 жыл бұрын
It's also one of the easiest Mario games
@RaphielShiraha64
4 жыл бұрын
@@josephmarino310 hum are you joking smb3 is actually pretty hard a lot more late in game if anything smw is more easy
@josephmarino310
4 жыл бұрын
@@RaphielShiraha64 of the original nes games smb3 is the easiest
@RaphielShiraha64
4 жыл бұрын
@@josephmarino310 >smb3 is the easiest hum no smb 1 is the easiest
@ThePoltergust5000
5 жыл бұрын
This may be a bit of a controversial take, but I think Zelda 2 was pretty smart about its difficulty. Even close to the endgame it was only a few minutes to get back to where you were if you got a game over, and you didn't lose any "flag" progress, only "spatial" progress. Especially since just losing a life only sent you back to the beginning of the room you died in, it was possible to get extra lives (though they were limited), and you had your spells to carefully ration out to get to that next point of progression. In a way, the progression of Zelda 2 was very Souls-like. The "bonfires" are the upgrades you get that stick with you when you get a Game Over, so once you pick them up it's "safe to die", as it were. After that, it's just a matter of getting used to the combat and the game becomes very fun to tensely traipse through. Also, the hardest part of the game, the Great Palace, has its own Game Over checkpoint, so you don't need to go through Death Valley again.
@Henkz85
5 жыл бұрын
As I see it Zelda 2 only have two big downsides. It's too hard to figure out where to go next in the overworld without a walkthrough, and it requires too much grinding for lives just to get through Death Valley. Even if you plan that out there's too much grinding. But with a walkthrough it's a very fun game and still challenging. :)
@ThePoltergust5000
5 жыл бұрын
@@Henkz85 There's kind of a trick to Death Valley that makes it not quite so hellish-- _take your time._ If you get into an encounter with the eye monsters (moas? something like that), you can hang around on the platform you start out on, kill the Moas that are there, and then make the jumps. Basically, make sure it's safe before you jump, and when you see another Moa, get to safe ground as quickly as possible to take it out. The starting platform and just outside the tunnels with the lizards are good spots.
@Xaelyn
5 жыл бұрын
@@Henkz85 When I recently played it on 3DS VC (without using safe states, mind you), I didn't have trouble with either of those myself, and my only prior experience with it was seeing a Let's Play around ~~5-7 Years earlier. I knew a few things still, but mostly had to figure stuff out myself. The only thing I missed was the Magic Upgrade hidden on Maze Island. I think King's Tomb in the Graveyard and the Hidden Town of Kasuto also took me a while, but I never had to grind or look anything up.
@PabbyPabbles
5 жыл бұрын
The very last stage is hell and I've never beaten it, but everything else was very manageable, yes even Death Mountain, and without the healing thingy at that. However, for the last stage, the game makes an exception and you start from there when you hit "continue", so even if I've never succeeded I won't throw any "bad game design because too difficult" labels at Zelda II. I'd like a Zelda II-2, too. Closest thing we have is Adventure Time: Hey Ice King Why'd You Steal Our Garbage on 3DS
@Henkz85
5 жыл бұрын
@@ThePoltergust5000 I never had problem with the eyes, as you say, patience is all you need. The lizards were my problem. You can use magic to kill them easily, but if you let that be the standard solution you'll run out magic fast. I tried to be patient with them too but figured that my chances was roughly the same if I just rushed it. I've beaten the game three times and usually arrive at the castle with about 1-3 lives left. :P
@Zorieon
3 жыл бұрын
The cursed Snowman Gaming video.
@buttzilla6958
4 жыл бұрын
Aight I usually agree but before watching this I played mega man 2 and everything you talked about in shovel knight practically came from MegaMan. Invincibility frames on the spikes, patterns all that.
@Piper_____
4 жыл бұрын
I think Binding of Isaac really captures that ‘old school difficulty’ feeling. Whenever you die, you have to restart your run, but you get to keep any unlocks and any long-term progress. It’s a difficult game, but all of the rules are laid out and enforced clearly. It is a very rare occurrence for me to feel like a death was unfair.
@HeavyEyed
5 жыл бұрын
bro i cant believe you like fortnite, it doesn't even have checkpoints!
@FlameRat_YehLon
5 жыл бұрын
Old school battle royale game (that runs in web browser) can have "checkpoint" by offering you a starting bonus if you win or survive long enough in the last round. Giving that you can't matchmaking in a web based battle royale (aka if you lose, you will have to wait for the next round to start), winning really matters, rather than just being able to take a screenshot. Such idea probably won't work in "modern" matchmaking style battle royale that well because winning and losing count are just a number, and there's not a lot you can lose anyway because you can just start another round painlessly.
@kennithball9787
5 жыл бұрын
*that is the joke*
@g2ltt733
5 жыл бұрын
@@FlameRat_YehLon r/woooosh
@ichabodlorax7585
5 жыл бұрын
I'm pretty sure that's actually one of the most legit Fortnite criticisms. Everyone just calls it "garbage" to make themselves feel better.
@lonkslonkolious4916
5 жыл бұрын
@Iriako Ishikawa is it though? Like, it's not a bad game, it's just obscenely popular
@alecrutz6979
5 жыл бұрын
I disagree with a lot of things in this video but yeah, the zombies in ghosts n goblins are bullshit actually, there's a lot of bullshit in that game
@alecrutz6979
5 жыл бұрын
also yeah, metroid was pretty fucked up too
@FernieCanto
5 жыл бұрын
@@alecrutz6979 Metroid was very unpleasant to play. Super Metroid, now, *that* is a masterpiece.
@alecrutz6979
5 жыл бұрын
@@FernieCanto same here. I absolutely despise the first metroid, its kind of amazing it was liked enough that it got sequels, although given that super metroid was one of them, I'd say its worth it
@cameronharding6055
5 жыл бұрын
When he mentioned Mario Bros 3 I cringed while remembering how Nintendo handles the true final levels in modern Mario Bros games.
@henryfleischer404
3 жыл бұрын
I actually like lives for shorter games. They force the player to master the early parts of a game before beating it, and can add in interesting resource management.
@stevefox1200
5 жыл бұрын
In a funny way this video shows me how a head of the curve Nintendo was at "game design", they started to migrate the arcade style design pretty quickly on the bigger titles fairly early compared to the other developers on the system
@hrpydrp
5 жыл бұрын
Yeesh, and I thought I was whiny when I made my Donkey Kong Country Video. "I recently beat Mario 3 on stream," Alright, that's pretty cool. Mario 3 is a good game. Challenging with tons of creative levels. "I warped right to world 8 and used save states." Alright, you lost my respect. "Losing lives and getting a game over doesn't test your skill, it's hard because you run out of lives and have to play the level over again." If you ran out of lives, it is hard for you, and it means you don't have the skill to beat it. I don't buy the whole "wasting time" argument, because most nes games can be beaten in an hour or less if you're good at it. Yeah, NES games were usually really hard because of the arcade mentality. It's all they knew how to do. But having a life system without any money to lose means you can get endlessly better at the game as long as you want to play it. If it's not too badly designed in terms of throwing shit at you you can't even react to, I think the difficulty along with the life/game over system is justified. You gotta remember NES games were incredibly limited with space and processing power and it was a very humble little system. It was a slightly more powerful toaster you could plug into your tv. Beating a game didn't feel like the developers were cheaply wasting your time, it was a finely crafted challenge. Losing your lives and having to start over from the beginning is a giant punishment. But this also equals out into an even greater feeling of triumph when you succeed. And it feels especially good when you actually, ya know, beat it as it was originally intended to beaten. But I wouldn't imagine you could relate to that. Castlevania, right? When you get a game over, it doesn't even send you to the beginning of the game, just the beginning of the level (and actually when you make it to Dracula, you start over right from the room before the boss), but sweet jesus fuck it's still fucking brutal. And it's not cheap, because it's a relatively slow game and you have time to learn what enemies do before engaging them. Even the jump arc isn't bad because Simon walks at a consistent speed all the time, making it really easy to predict where you're going to land. The levels teach you the game's mechanics slowly, and get more and more difficult with each one. But there's endless possibilities in how you can control the situation. The player still feels in control so the deaths feel justified. There's a whole gosh darn video about how Castlevania 1 is good and how the limitations of the NES forced developers to focus on the game's design to get it to sell, go watch that.
@jakerockznoodles
4 жыл бұрын
"If you run out of lives it is hard for you and you don't have the skill to beat it. Many games can be completed in an hour if you are good at them" And how do you get good at them except from playing them over and over, wasting time on sections you've already mastered just to get to the bit you haven't mastered yet. And it is wasting time, because lives systems makes you wait more time between where you can practice improving your own skill, as the video points out. If I'm stuck on a step in a dance, I don't get better by practicing all of the OTHER steps just to get back to that one, I get better by practicing THAT step. Then again, you're the kind of arrogant cunt who sets out a comment by detailing how other people have "lost your respect", so you're clearly so absorbed in your own self importance that you won't really pay attention and make some smartarse comment back like the toad you are.
@greeneye2037
4 жыл бұрын
If you lost respect for someone over how good they are at a video game you didn't have any to begin with.
@greeneye2037
4 жыл бұрын
Also your respect doesn't mean shit too him.
@TonyEjerJiang
5 жыл бұрын
This videos feels like a K-pop singers or American rapper whining about opera diva songs and heavy metal songs being badly composed.
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