as to why the "upgraded" mad dogs are called Vultures: its likely the same case as for the mad cat MK2: a diamond shark upgrade they wanted to market to the Inner Sphere as their biggest potential customers, hence the name used was the IS one
@harvestblades
Жыл бұрын
Really enjoyed this match up. Fell in love w/ the MAD Dog back in MW2 & the Archer isn't a bad looking or designed mech either. Now while lore doesn't always match up with tabletop I think it is interesting to see how good the Archer can get w a good pilot which to me explains why guys like Morgan Kell or Jaimie Wolf would choose an Archer when they have their pick of the litter. Just a fun little thing to chew on. For new players like me these videos are so eye opening as I don't have the experience to have come to my own conclusion.
@Taemien
4 жыл бұрын
Something I don't believe is taken into account since I didn't see it mentioned is rear torso armor. That is one of the major weaknesses the Vulture Prime has. I can remember a time where I had a CN9-D5 Centurion MASC its way into the rear arc and unloaded its RAC5 and coring the Omnimech. That seems to be a relatively surefire way of dealing with some of these clan mechs that punch way higher than their weight class. Get behind them. This takes obscene amounts of speed as a Vulture or Madcat can walk backwards as fast as some IS mechs run. In some cases, flamers and infernos might be your friend as well, especially with some Daishi variants.
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
Its a great point, and you are right the model is not a full blown positioning simulation - the defensive benchmark does show armor by area though.
@hermes7587
3 жыл бұрын
A common misconception about the Vulture is that the LRMs are for long-range fighting. They are not. At long range the Vulture is doing best with the large pulse lasers. These weapons are incredibly accurate at range and they are very good against armor. The LRM-20 packs and the medium pulse lasers are the Vulture´s medium to short-range weapons. The LRM-20 packs are quite good for crit-hunting. Keeping this in mind the low ammo load actually is not a big issue.
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
3 жыл бұрын
This is a good assessment! I guess Id argue you are paying LRM BV costs for a weapon you’re not using as much as you could.
@Gomai
2 жыл бұрын
As a relatively new player your dissection is really helpful. Thanks for recording this!
@Nodjia
2 жыл бұрын
In my mind, the clan mentality for the vulture is a mid to close range skirmisher that just happens to have enough LRM capacity to perform fire support on the way in, and it is interesting to see just how the numbers line up over thousands of simulated tests. Thanks for the data analysis.
@jamesricker3997
2 жыл бұрын
It does not have an ammunition to perform fire support, because Clan combat Doctrine does not believe in fire support
@harvestblades
Жыл бұрын
And w/ the 5/8 of the MAD dog it's going to get in range more quickly & also doesn't have a min range w those LRMs so if you still have any ammo left that can get nasty in med-close range.
@EchoMirage72
Жыл бұрын
Oh! I've been wondering what the name in Parenthesis meant. I was thinking it was like the 'mechs call sign lol
@doombunnybomb
4 жыл бұрын
The best reason to field an Archer is the opportunity to shout 'Lana!' 'Lana!' as you shoot.
@ogrehaslayers605
2 жыл бұрын
Aim for her giant hands and disarm her
@rburt3
4 жыл бұрын
So while I'm not super surprised at the outcome, in terms of numbers, those clan mechs still take up a *significant* chunk of your total BV so I would think it would average out in the end? I don't really play past 3039 right now and never played past 3055 back in the day, so I would assume that post FC Civil War, things even out again, but man does this bring back memories of just how frustrating balancing some of those IS vs Clan games were. As for the analysis itself, was wondering if you considered Second Line for the Archer? Thinking about it, it makes some sense at first blush, but I agree its probably the least optimal compared to the two you recommend. In the end, fire support is its DNA after all.
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
Yah it never ceases to amaze me how much BV one of these Clan Omnis cost... if you go back to that Avatar/Summoner comparo - its just so expensive. For more context, I am pretty sure a Stormcrow is on par with a Marauder II.
@legomech1946
4 жыл бұрын
Wow I am way behind on these videos. Time to catch up! Great video, I like the idea of comparing mechs by role. The pulse lasers are a huge benefit. I really wish Alpha Strike had done pulse lasers like SRMs (Pulse x/x/x - attack only deals x damage but has a -2 modifier) instead of just having a damage increase from pulse weapons. It would have made mechs like the Nightsky and Viper really stand out.
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
Yah - there are definitely some opportunities to improve AS! And catch up quick on the latest - more mech reviews coming soon! 😁
@Apollo-js8rn
4 жыл бұрын
YYYYES! My all-time favorite 'mech (despite a cursed love-hate relationship with it) versus my wife's "boss -mech." (*grabs bag of popcorn*) This is gonna be epic!
@DrDetroit941
4 жыл бұрын
These are great! Keep it up.
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks! Appreciate the support and glad you are enjoying!
@robkitchen5344
2 жыл бұрын
Endo steel frees up 3 tons of ammo giving it sufficient staying power. Indirect fire support isn't the most sought after role on battle field for a clan warrior but its a vital role and the Vulture isn't built to last on front line so long range support is the best fit for the design...packing on more LRM ammo add to it's survivability by keeping behind the brawlers it supports.....converting the medium pulse lasers to ER versions and adding 2 more tons of armor increases its toughness for punching holes in the target with the LPLs then opening up those thin spots with the missiles is viable strategy but to pull it pull efficiently the 20 racks need replaced with 15 racks and add more heat sinks for cooler running mech
@Nitscherk
2 жыл бұрын
You dont understand Omni Mechs.
@durnaxe8708
4 жыл бұрын
Honestly the one thing that pushes the Mad Dog over the edge for me? The two Large Pulse lasers. Probably the reason why it was killing a javelin so quickly. If it had two ER larges instead I would say the edge is for the Archer but I consider the Clan Large Pulse laser to be one of the most powerful (maybe broken?) weapons in the game. That -2 at 20 hexes is really hard to beat. Even the Variable Speed Pulse Lasers need to be at short range to get their almighty -3 to hit I honestly find the IS ER large laser to be pretty underwhelming. Give me a PPC or a standard Large instead. The only time I tend to lean towards IS ER Large is when I throw a RISC Laser Pulse Module on it (Interstellar Ops, pg 93), it turns a IS laser into a pulse laser for only 1 extra ton but can cause it to explode on snake eyes. Clan BV costs can be funny. For example, the Mad Dog Prime is 2351 BV while the 45 ton Mongrel Prime is 2290 BV. Honestly for a Range support unit its REALLY hard to beat the LRM Carrier (3055 upgrade). No heat, under 800 bv, and 3 lrm 20's with artemis. Even rocks a C3 Slave unit. Though I do prefer the Yeoman myself but thats more because its such a stupid looking mech I cant help loving it and play it. Or something with a Thumper/Sniper/AIV. Hard to "out" range support an artillery piece. Though out of the two in the video I actually own 2 archers, one Unseen and one Re-seen 8M, but no Mad Dogs. So I guess the Archer? But IMO right now the two sculpts IWM sells (6W and 8M) are some of the worst sculpts that company has to offer. The primitive 1A sculpt isn't to bad though, friend has one of those. However Aries games has the Robotech/macross Destroid spartan that is an archer and that line of mini's look AMAZING from the pictures.
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
I love everything you said in here. - yes the clan large pulse is ridiculous - yes clan BV makes no sense - dont get started on LRM carriers hahah - the newer IWM Archers don’t do it for me - Aries has all the coolest stuff
@louiskemner3216
4 жыл бұрын
I enjoy the Vulture/Mad Dog and I think I ought to hurry up and use it again in my games. it's been a while. I don't mind the low LRM ammo since running out of missiles means no ammo explosion liability, and those large pulses are so good, I hardly miss the ammo. As for assault fire support comparisons, I think that it should come down to the Viking vs the Blood Kite. I think they're the best for that weight class and combat role, for their respective factions.
@MrDecelles
2 жыл бұрын
If vs, I would take the archer. Indirect fire can be huge.
@jasonhenninger8220
Жыл бұрын
Vulture, drop Pulse to ER: 6t -- 2t armor, 2t ammo, 2 HS.
@gavincross2902
4 жыл бұрын
I would love to hear your thoughts on Improved Jump Jets. Personally I HATE them. Some newer and heavier mechs in the tech readouts will throw up to 12 tons of pod space into these. Is the extra mobility worth it in game play? I just cannot see how it can be worth it but you guys are the pros. Cheers and thanks for the videos.
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
While I haven’t looked at the improved jets yet, I can tell you that even regular old jets aren’t great. They cost a fortune in BV and are extremely situational... the +3 attacker mod and heat further positions them for primarily defensive use. And again, the BV hike is substantial. So, yah. I think your instincts are spot on. 🙂👍
@brianhenry152
4 жыл бұрын
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Gonna have to respectfully disagree. The added mobility can really give you an edge by allowing you to go places a non-jump capable mech cannot. I've had great success with jump capable mediums against much heavier designs, getting in for rear armor shots when I win initiative and fading out and forcing my opponents to chase me if I lose initiative. Nothing is more satisfying than bringing down a bigger mech with a smaller, faster one. I've never tried the improved Jump jets though. I do agree that BV is an extremely imperfect balancing metric. What are your thoughts of using Alpha Strike's point costs even for CBT?
@Apollo-js8rn
4 жыл бұрын
@@brianhenry152 I accidentally had to use Alpha Strike PV to balance an unexpected B-tech game recently. (It was my own damn' fault too. I thought I had all the needed sheets printed to teach my rookie with but..nope! I'd fucked that up! So we used what we had, the AS cards, with B-tech rules thrown in wherever they fit.) Long story short: it was easier to count to 150 (AS) PV than 6,000 (b-tech) BV, the game was Battletech in spirit if not in stats, and most importantly the rookie says he had a blast! As soon as we're out of quarantine he wants to play another game of...whatever. Might as well use Alpha strike's PV system. It's easier.
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
I love PV more than BV, but they are balanced way differently ... I’m not sure they are necessarily interchangeable. And yeah, at closer ranges, in a brawl or in really rough terrain JJs can be useful... I still have a hard time substantiating the cost of more than 3 to 4 jump MP on a chassis.
@matthewbirdsall9518
4 жыл бұрын
That was Interesting...makes me want to take a better pilot to closen up the BV and fuel, lol.
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
Yah that Archer looks good with an elite behind the controls.... 😁
@matthewbirdsall9518
4 жыл бұрын
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming which conveniently matches lore with pilots like Morgan Kell and Jaime Wolf.
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
Battlytics: Now with lore-sensing algorithms.
@davidsteele640
4 жыл бұрын
So, I am curious about your Gunnery Sensitivity metric. As I was looking at this comparison, seeing the low GSen for Vultures and knowing pulse lasers make the gunnery skill far less important, I thought "aha!" lower numbers mean less benefit/need to have a better pilot in the mech. So, my understanding is that the Gunnery Sensitivity score shows how changing gunnery affects the efficiency rating (is that correct?) But, then you said would prefer to take an Archer with Gunnery 1 pilot over the Vulture. That's well over 3700 BV! Do you really feel that a 0.7 increase in efficiency is worth 500 extra BV? (this would be a 3/4 Vulture pilot at 3246 BV vs a 1/2 Archer Pilot at 3745 BV). Or am I misunderstanding how this metric works still?
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
Great comment - and yes you are correct! The sensitivity is essentially the linear trend line’s slope when looking at efficiency at gunnery 4 to gunnery 0.
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
As for the Archer vs Vulture...the Archer at Gunnery 1 has an efficiency of 8.54 and costs 2675 (assume 5 piloting for now). A Vulture cannot achieve that efficiency, even at Gunnery 0... and would cost 2821 BV at Gunnery 3, which is an efficiency of 7.75. You are right that the pulse lasers really help, but I’d bet a G0 Archer would munch up a G3 Vulture! Idk for sure though 😃
@davidsteele640
4 жыл бұрын
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Ah, we generally require gunnery and piloting skills to be within 1 point of each other, so I was assuming a 1/2 pilot. Though, even at G0 P5 I still come up with 3043 BV on that Archer - Do you guys still use BV1 calcs?
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
Yah that makes sense, and in a normal game we would never allow a 1/5 (we typically do within 1 as well) - but since the model is focused on damage and since piloting mods are a fixed %, it’s just left at 5. I have 1672 for the base BV (4/5) for the Archer. Gunnery 0 is a x1.75 modifier, so it’d be 2926... my example above was Gunnery 1 (x1.6 mod to bv).
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
Oh maybe I figured out the issue - did you know they errated the BV costs for several piloting levels and gunnery 0? Was done in like November: bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=67626.0
@Dmorris556
4 жыл бұрын
2586 -4/4 Maddog 2,578 - 2/4 Archer Seems pretty inline, except, that Vulture will perform with any pilot, that archer is only good with your wüder böi pilot.
@rburt3
4 жыл бұрын
I am very confused about the description for this video. I think you may have spoiled next week's entry?
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
LOL thanks - I'll fix. DONT TELL ANYONE. :D
@DeathfromAboveWargaming
4 жыл бұрын
er I mean, what are you talking about? Looks totally fine. :P
@rburt3
4 жыл бұрын
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Huh. Must have been a trick of the light. 😜 Thanks as always for some great content!
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