I thought that the "Don't do this, Cass" was Dean's way of saying "Take it back. We'll figure it out, together, as we always do. But we can't do that if you are gone. I prefer you alive and both of us unhappy or even to die together, swinging at Death, above you being gone, probably forever, while I stay here." But, you are right: a simple "Cass" could have done almost the same thing. I usually like your Destiel videos because you are not drastic in your opinions (so you are helping my view of the world to evolve without me feeling utterly stupid about being who I am), but I am happy that you let yourself be angry at what matters. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings.
@grammerincorrect
3 жыл бұрын
yeah i saw it like this too. their last fight ended with dean not being able to ask cas to stay, so i think he was trying to stop whatever was happening so he wouldn't leave/he could understand what was happening first
@gallopingbeansfoster
3 жыл бұрын
@JoseeRobitaille I completely agree with your "Don't do this Cas." It was reminiscent of him telling Cas, "I'd rather have you, cursed or not."
@Kleineganz
3 жыл бұрын
I have to say, I love you on your bad days. "No shit, you dumb fuck" had me laughing so hard. Seriously, you're fantastic.
@yellohcards
3 жыл бұрын
All I have to say about the last few minutes of this video...PREACH! "Finish it or don't start it" - exactly!
@arianaku5609
3 жыл бұрын
God as a closeted bisexual the rant at the end gave me chills.
@theoddone6213
3 жыл бұрын
The execution of the whole thing was just cowardly. Dean is the straight male fantasy; so many insecure, toxic males want to be Dean. I see them on here all of the time under destiel videos, declaring Dean 100% straight. Think of how messed up you have to be to deliberately seek out videos about a same sex ship in an attempt to convince others that the character whom you admire is straight. The thought that they are looking up to a bisexual character totally terrifies them, so they argue Dean's sexuality at every turn. It is so sad to watch. Many of these toxic "bros" are already dismissing Cas as a main character because, we know why. Cannot have a gay angel who's in love with Dean at the forefront. The finale has done nothing but fuel this homophobic behavior. I believe they could have had Dean say I love you back, & these types of people would still be saying that he meant it in a brotherly way. I am sick of these shows catering to the ignorant, like open-minded people who do not attempt to control other people's lives at every turn are unimportant. This world depresses me.
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
It totally infuriates me that some fans would do this to other fans I would find comments on KZitem saying exactly that dean is straight and that castiel meant that his love for dean was pearly platonic it makes my blood boil 😬🤯😠😡🤬😤
@foxymoon7860
3 жыл бұрын
@@cynthiaholmes5124 Lol they want to dismiss it so bad that they are like in a time loop of denial. First they say that Castiel didn't mean it in a romantic way. When we point out that Misha played it as romantic, wanted it to be romantic and that the writers like Bobo wrote it as romantic, they try to say that ''But Dean cant possibly feel the same, because he's straight!''. Then when I or the other people point out many examples of Dean feeling the same way, they try to dismiss it. Then they turn around and say ''Well, actually Castiel can't feel love because he's an Angel and angels don't feel that way!'' and when we point out the other examples of angels feeling the same way like Anna, Ishim, Akobel, Adam's angel lover etc they turn back to the beginning, trying to deny in the same way or other. It's just tiring, annoying, ridiculous but funny at the same time to me. Not to mention writing a 12 years of (well, at least 8 years of) unrequited love story doesn't make any sense because the narrative and all those parallels prove otherwise. Like Castiel's being Dean's Colette and all that Cain arc plotline is one of the most glaring examples of that. Aside from Cas, Dean was already queer-coded and him being a bisexual could be seen in other various ways in the series. Not to mention the marketing research for making Dean textually bisexual, but it being blocked by the higher ups and execs. The mere suggestion of Dean bisexual terrifies them so much, lol. Well jokes on them tbh, they can choke on in their homophobia. We been right all along and we weren't seeing things. Gaslighting won't work anymore.
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
@@foxymoon7860 I definitely agree with you 🌈☺️😊😉
@slutlord6507
Жыл бұрын
By people who insist on seeing things from their firm perspective instead of diversifying and really wanting to explore human complexities is what makes innovative series no longer appear. Dean was the archetypal masculinity but on many occasions people do not want to see that he was human with aspects that do not fit with the pre-established as dean's codependency, the duty of taking the role of mother for sam, his eternal search to unite his family again despite how late it was already and how to forget his emotional repression that led him to even admit that his heart was not as strong as his family's. People will want to see what is good for them, yet it is pursuing an illusion rather than understanding that emotions have no political agenda.
@TimeandMonotony
3 жыл бұрын
I'm one of the new fans who started watching Supernatural after the internet combusted due to 15x18 and 15x20, so I knew about the confession and finale before I even started. I know I don't have the same experience as other fans, especially other queer fans (panromantic asexual here) who have been watching and hoping for Destiel for years, but here's my two cents: I agree with almost everything you have to say, except that I am glad that Castiel was confirmed as canonically queer, and that Destiel went at least one-sided canon. The last two episodes were a shitshow, especially the last, and I hate that Cas' confession and sacrifice were never addressed, but I do think Despair was a good send-off for Cas. He got a complete character arc from 4x01 to 15x18 and grew so much as a character, whereas the series finale erased all 15 years of Sam and Dean's beautiful character development. Cas being forgotten about was bullshit, but that was a problem with how they messed up Dean's characterization in the last episode, not Cas (in my opinion.) I saw a post on Tumblr comparing the characters' endings and arcs that said something like "Cas got a whole book with a finale and conclusion, just without a nice epilogue that wrapped everything up in a bow, whereas Sam and Dean's books just stopped mid-story," and that's exactly how I feel. I'm mad about how dirty they did Sam and Dean, and that Cas was never mentioned again PURELY so as not to alienate homophobic audiences, but I think Cas was given a beautiful ending that made sense for the character and narrative, and I'm really glad that he's officially one of us. I can understand why many queer fans were so upset by how this was handled and their feelings are valid, but I'm grateful for Despair, regardless of what came after. Just my opinion!
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
Castiel is my favorite character in the series because unlike dean and sam he had the most character growth throughout his time on the series even though I hated the way his character was treated in the later seasons of the series but I do love his evolution throughout the series 🌈❤💜😊🤗☺️
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
He and sam and dean definitely deserved a better ending to their stories I know it's way to soon for a reboot but supernatural definitely deserves one because I really hated the last four seasons of the series and the finale this series deserved better I hated that some of the writers didn't get what they wanted with dean and castiel and that's for them being together as a couple 🤯😬😠😡🤬🌈😊🤗
@TimeandMonotony
3 жыл бұрын
@@cynthiaholmes5124 I liked the last four seasons, especially 14 (one of my favorite seasons of the whole show), but I hated the finale. I don't know about a reboot, I feel like it wouldn't be the same without Jared, Jensen and Misha. Unless you mean a continuation, like The X-Files got?
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
@@TimeandMonotony yes like x files except I would wait a few years to do it
@TimeandMonotony
3 жыл бұрын
@@cynthiaholmes5124 I agree, I would love that. ☺ I think the cast would be down for it, too.
@E2010Gency
3 жыл бұрын
My heart was genuinely going at like 180bpm during the entire confession - all I could think was "THEY CAN'T, THEY WONT, THEY DIDN'T." Honestly, I hadn't written a word of fanfiction in about 10 years (and never wrote about supernatural) and these two episodes pulled me out of retirement in a fit of rage. How amazing would it have been to show Dean in the weeks and months after Cas dying, discovering that yes, he did love him back and then hatch some insane plan to get him back. How unbelievably frustrating and frankly insulting to LGBTQ+ people who saw themselves in Cas to be gaslit for years that they were imagining destiel, only to turn tack in the most disrespectful way possible. The only good to come of this was that I have reignited my love for tumblr haha!
@HikariOnYT
3 жыл бұрын
Man, I feel your rage on a spiritual level.
@unknownguest4575
3 жыл бұрын
dying for someone else is so overdone on this show its like, they might as well do rock paper scissors to find out whos dying this season lol
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
You're so right castiel and dean and sam have died multiple times throughout the series I which the writers hadn't done it so much it was so pointless 🤯😬😤😡🤬
@coleb9392
3 жыл бұрын
we all know Dean will lose then.
@zhulimoon46
3 жыл бұрын
Dean thinking he is unlovable is so relatable to me and that is how I would react to someone confessing to me, too.
@merbel7155
3 жыл бұрын
It's a fucked up world we live in but at least we've got eachother. Happy pride month y'all❤❤❤
@sdl1ishappy
3 жыл бұрын
One thing I love about this scene and Misha's performance is it finally gives Castiel agency in the relationship, finally lands on the character having been aware of his feelings for Dean for a long time (even if it is not exactly clear when he knew) and takes those feelings seriously. I was never entirely comfortable when the writers treated those feelings as a joke, so that is something I really appreciated. I also feel like part of the appeal of any interspecies love affair is the fact that it will never be conventional and it is always on some level star-crossed and/or doomed. I actually like the idea of Castiel needing to mentor Jack and cease his life among the humans/with Dean for the greater good. That's beautiful and tragic. I wish it had been explored but there you go.
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
I do agree with that even if the producers and the writers went full on destiel and made them canon there relationship would has been doomed because castiel would had eventually ended right back in heaven somehow 🤔🥰😘😥😭😢😰😩
@sdl1ishappy
3 жыл бұрын
@@cynthiaholmes5124 Even if you look at the classic film Wings of Desire, which heavily influenced the angels on SPN, the angel in that film's love for a human woman ends tragically. It's kind of baked into the narrative.
@UnoNumberOne
3 жыл бұрын
Exactly. I'm a huge destiel fan but I didn't need badly done destiel in my life. Cas was already a sad tragic figure - why stick the knife in a bit further?
@marydodge9844
3 жыл бұрын
I also wanted to say this part 15 felt like a hug from a good friend who's telling me, "It's going to be ok. You're not alone. I feel it too." I'm still pissed off. And sad. And pissed off. But at least I know I'm not crazy and alone.
@fishtank39
3 жыл бұрын
I go back and forth in so many ways with relation to how I feel about the confession. At this point, I'm sure it being one part confirmation and one part ambiguity was the furthest that the destiel-sympatheic writers (the one who wrote the script for 5x18 being a queer man himself) could push within the confines of the homophobic network. The fact that some people still try and make it seem like Cas's romantic confession was indeed a platonic ~you're like family to me~ one itself shows how even the half-baked, unsatisfactory level of queer love gets pushback. It also highlights how much more there needed to be definitive reciprocation from Dean
@caleighgillenwater6953
3 жыл бұрын
you explained exactly how I feel! It was so stupid of them just to have Cas admit it, die, then pretend he doesn't exist basically
@KagamineProductions
3 жыл бұрын
And the biphobia is so real. I didn't even watch this live but a few KZitemrs I follow did super quick videos of their disbelief. And then I waited to watch myself and I have been super salty since.
@burakcelikbilek1256
3 жыл бұрын
I actually liked Despair on its own too. The scene was powerful, emotional and the character do really behave like themselves. It would be really out of character for Dean to reciprocate or even say anything. The scene where he turns his back and we see his tearful eyes is SO well put, even though the scene has some continuity issues. It really is the maximum amount of emotion that Dean would have expressed, more would be out of character, to be honest. BUT the real problem is how did they handle the situation afterward. What's the point of the end of the Despair if we won't get another concluding scene in the last two episodes? It really is "take your gays out of the closet and hide in the cupboard or something". The only reason I can think of this choice to include this script, this scene is to lure us to watch the last two episodes. Well, I personally would watch them even though there wasn't a love confession. We would probable see Misha too :/ The finale would be actually BEARABLE. It would be still dull probably but at least bearable... Yes, it was obvious that we wouldn't get more out of that scene but... idk. I feel played nevertheless.
@dommiesgrl
3 жыл бұрын
The "let's habla español for a sec" made me literally laugh out loud, haha.
@jaciewall9108
3 жыл бұрын
As a bisexual women myself who can’t come out of the closet because of my homophobic family I loved your rate and agree with you I hated how they pulled the trigger on Destiel without not even hearing dean side of confession sucked which then again I wish our world would let LGBTQ people live in peace as straight people can and people don’t act like bisexuality doesn’t exist when in reality it does. Edit: Happy pride month y’all sending love 💛
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
Know truest words to that 😊😉🌈
@jaciewall9108
3 жыл бұрын
@@cynthiaholmes5124 Yess :D
@sarahmcphee173
Жыл бұрын
I am in the same position and couldn't agree more
@sjohn5252
3 жыл бұрын
After that last segment, I wanna give you a hug man. You perfectly encapsulated my thoughts and feelings on Despair, it's been a blast watching this deep-dive.
@erbsenkaffee8720
3 жыл бұрын
THANK YOU! I truly feel your rage at the end. Back when Cas made the deal I was basiccly screaming at the screen - of corse Dean would be Cas true happiness. When I first watched the confession scene I felt validadet and joyful because I thought they just had to adress it. Now looking backt at it I feel like that scene has caused me more damage than it has helped. It felt like coming out, receiving a pat on the shoulder and then nobody ever talks to you again and then everoyne is just like pretending you don't exist anymore. The last two episodes literally don't make any sense to me and I can't stop thinking about how they could do that to the chracters in the show and the viewers who cared so much about it. Even without the Destiel drama the finale was a tragedy the homophobia is just and added bonus . It's just like you said - it's just one more TV show that's part of the tip of the iceberg.
@erineko1847
3 жыл бұрын
What’s really unnerving, in my opinion, is the unbalance between the treatment of the two characters involved in this relationship, as you pointed out briefly. It’s something that irks me a lot, for a very simple reason: it was way more easy to make Castiel “the gay one” (forgetting entirely the fact that angels weren’t following any gender norm, or that Castiel had both a female and a male “vessel”, or that he was attracted to women, too, not because he slept with April, but because he was fond of that memory when he discussed it with Dean) than to address Dean’s bisexuality. And that’s because it’s bisexuality our greater taboo! Bisexuality is the least discussed or understood “orientation”. The reason why that is it’s part of the heteronormative way we live sexuality: homosexuality is considered exclusive and can be understood under the heterosexual paradigm. A poor and strict mentality can at least just understand that. There isn’t just enough mental flexibility to see how fallacious this thinking is! Bisexuality exist and is more common than those kind of people would like to admit, and, more importantly, bisexuality isn’t morally ambiguous! It doesn’t mean you can’t make up your mind, but unfortunately society is in itself normative: so something that is that open it’s perceived as dangerous. That’s why it is often asked for a decision to be made: you are a man who married another man, so of course you should admit that you “chose to be gay”, instead of “going straight”. This is just another way to deny that bisexuality is valid. We know that you don’t stop being attracted by all kind of people just because you fall in love with someone, but our mentality isn’t really able to deal with multiple options. It’s all about reading everything under the more simplistic image of the happy heterosexual couple fixated in the 1950s. So how Dean Winchester could be the lead character, a white man with guns, fighting the good fight, the good soldier and bisexual?! We have to remember that, for the majority of people, again being bisexual is perceived as morally ambiguous, a “fase” when you are still undecided and you could go one way or the other... A very limited and poor understanding, but, again, we live in a normative society with a poor understanding of the complexities of human beings and we prefer to think in a dichotomy way (hetero or gay), that’s it. Our imagination is very biased. That’s so damaging! And we forget how we are also in a particular historical frame: it’s a historical fact and not the norm, it’s normative and not “normal”. The main fault is thinking that being heterosexual (the term “straight” says it all) is the “normal” way for human sexuality, and all those who are different are “deviations” of this norm. This way of thinking is historical made with the invention of psychiatry and the turn of the medical world under the scientific paradigm in the late XIX century. In the 1970s studies were published that tried to correct this narrow analysis. But we have forgotten, of course.
@erineko1847
3 жыл бұрын
For those who want to read about this topic, I can suggest some further reading materials. But first I would like to underline that the majority of studies are focused exclusively on male sexuality and behavioral patterns. Women are often forgotten or excluded from this kind of research because their sexuality isn’t understood at all by our current society and our science. I can’t underline this fact enough and I am a woman, so I know how true this is, because often it isn’t easy at all to learn about female sexuality or understand ourselves, due to strong conditioning and gaslighting and also a lot of violence. Anyway: 1) books.google.it/books/about/Sexual_Behavior_in_the_Human_Male.html?id=tnhqAAAAMAAJ&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y 2) science.thewire.in/science/male-bisexuality-research-study-critics/ 3) www.pnas.org/content/117/31/18369
@innisneill7510
3 жыл бұрын
Very true. It‘s strange how something as simple as being bi can elude so many people. Although, ever since I learned about asexual people I feel we are better off than we thought. They do have it worse imho. I was puzzled how some shipped an aromantic Dean and an asexual Cass in fanfics, but when I tried to come up with any kind of representation for them, I couldn‘t remember a single positive character in any show or book. (Hence me being oblivious of asexuality for far too long)
@erineko1847
3 жыл бұрын
@@innisneill7510 Yes, that is a very interesting point you made, although I don’t think that a better understanding of human sexuality can be measured by which “categories” have it better and that is because I really think that the majority of these categories aren’t mutually exclusive. What I mean is that we should really consider sexuality more flexible than we are used to do even in the LGTBQI+ community. During the entirety of a human life, one can easily move around the spectrum in a flexible way, from an asexual fase (before puberty, but in a lot of cases this can last for a long time or a lifetime or have some exemptions and circling around demisexuality) to a homosexual or bisexual or heterosexual range of interests one doesn’t have to act upon until it’s the right time and all of this is really variable from one person to another. I’ll tell you this: the majority of fan fictions, as I understand, are written by women; please correct me if I’m wrong. We live in a deeply misogynistic society and female sexuality isn’t studied or understood at all: it is often censored or oversimplified or simply forgotten. Often women use the more flexible and complex male characters to role-play with and to understand better themselves, because there is a severe lack of representation of female characters and complexities in the media and in society. Women also deal with strong, deep generational trauma that is passed very early on. A repression and misunderstanding on a human level associated with a lot of physical, sexual, psychological and medical violence and gaslighting. Writing can be very therapeutic in a context like this.
@sdl1ishappy
3 жыл бұрын
Well said, and remember that Bisexual characters are often treated as more depraved, more sinister and more threatening that gay ones, and it's rather extraordinary that this show leaned into Dean's bisexuality as much as it did. Even going back to Dream a Little Dream in the third season, it allows Dean to want to be with Lisa and be attracted to her but there's something bubbling underneath that is tormenting him and it's easy to interpret it's about his sexuality. And Dean is heroic. I think the writers were really enjoying adding subtext to a character, didn't think the show would be as talked about/run as long as it did and were doing some really interesting things.
@erineko1847
3 жыл бұрын
@@sdl1ishappy Thank you for your input, I agree! Also English isn’t my first language and I am happy that my point is coming across well.
@innisneill7510
3 жыл бұрын
Totally agree with your explanations from how it‘s more of a „hide your gays“ to how it IS damaging to queer&bi people indeed. I especially like how you reasoned that there is not a singular evil homophobe who is to blame for this lovable mess of a show. It was terrifying to watch how some fans would vent their anger after the finale at Dabb & the cast (or basically anyone at that moment), while feeling just as angry as them. At the same time, Cass‘ confession really was powerful. He was such a great character, even though they toned him down a little at the end. I feel having him confirmed queer is a gift nonetheless. Since he wasn‘t written with those typical over the top queer/gay tropes, but just as much a badass as Sam&Dean, it‘s easier to relate to him for a straight passing bi imho.
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
Castiel is my favorite character in the show supernatural even though I hated the way his character was treated at least he had actual character growth unlike with sam and dean he evolves from battle hearted angel to rebelling against heaven to becoming a hunter to being a father to jack to finally excepting himself for who he is 🌈😢😥😭🥰😘💝💖😍
@innisneill7510
3 жыл бұрын
So true 🤗
@unknownguest4575
3 жыл бұрын
31:30 GO OFF BOB WESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@jaciewall9108
3 жыл бұрын
The king went off ✨👑✨
@sam.v
3 жыл бұрын
I love how pissed off bob is about how they deleted any mention of cas after he went to superhell... because that's exactly how I feel! *sad laughing* on another note, I think misha is from our camp happy pride month everyone!
@z.z.5243
3 жыл бұрын
God. They sliced this so finely down the middle. So finely and so, so badly. In January I made myself a t-shirt that says THIS ANGEL IS GAY AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT because that absurdly means a lot to 2011 closeted 15 year old me but every! other! thing! the 15x18 to 15x20 run did with Destiel is just. Evil! Evil evil evil! Thank you for being so angry about this. I spend a lot of time making little jokes about it online and imagining better endings, but the real thing sucks so fucking bad for real-life reasons and I appreciate having that spoken. My bisexual regards to you.
@dylancole1910
3 жыл бұрын
I will always defend this scene for several reasons. I really don't get why people see this scene as homophobic on Jensen's part. He gets a lot of hate because Dean didn't say it back, but-I mean.. I'd imagine it'd be hard to process anything properly when you just got done running from Death herself, suffered an almost heart failure, and said entity keeps banging on the door and all the sudden your best friend starts in on this heart felt speech and declaring his undying love. And also, HE DIDNT WRITE THE DAMN SCENE HE'S AN ACTOR, and people still think somehow it's his fault that the claimed " bury the gays" was carried out. I don't really think it would have mattered at all if he'd simply just said ' Cas' or not. I feel like the emotions and everything about this scene was accurate to Dean's characterization. Even if it was probably a loophole that they deliberately took so they didn't have to outright call it a love confession on both ends, I still really love this. I'm sure the emotions expressed by the actors probably weren't " on cue" as it WAS Misha's last day and everyone knew, and while a full on sob would have probably been just as great, I still liked the timing that it came. The hand print was genius, I will never get over it. Best last minute decision anyone on that crew ever made. I was expecting a brotherly angle as well, it left me speechless for the rest of the night. It wasn't until the next morning that it hit me that they really actually let Misha say those words. I had to watch the whole episode again to make sure it wasn't a very vivid dream. I don't know why they couldn't have had that scene. I mean, sure Dean was very characterically bottling up his emotions again but Jack deserved to at least have A conversation about it, even if Dean basically just lied and said that Cas' happiness was that he knew his family would be safe or that Dean would be safe or that the world was in safe hands or some shit like that, I would have been grateful for any kind of concern shown for Jacks grief. Or at least a scene with Sam trying to get him to open up about it- like it usually happens. But just all of the avoidance over the subject of Cas afterward those last two episodes made me really disappointed. They've never killed a character ( a main/ important/ valued) and not talked about it or shown that that death meant something after and it just felt like they were going for the " forget he ever existed" angle. Even the comment about Cas running heaven that Bobby gave was extremely forced and last minute seeming.
@NiKaTaru
3 жыл бұрын
your words are so true ~ I think Dean wouldn't have been able to sayanything in returninthat situation ~ I mean I had a similar situation (without the death part but my first boyfriend just kissed me and left to go home without a word - we weren't together at the time) so I wasn't able to process that in any way and their situation was way more dramatic in the full ~ I also think that more on the oposite that everybody and especially Jensen tried very hard to do the best he could with the mini pieces he got to show his characters emotional expression and the impact of the confession and Cas dead after - the way he acts - the small nuances you can see~ is well played but not too much to get cut (like sadly some of the beautiful scenes still got) - the only scene I'll never understand is the pie scene~ feels out of character - if you don't take into account Dean's sometimes suicidial tendenzies to act after he lost everything~ which is also my only explanation why he gives up in the barn~ bc he is tired~ okay getting dark here ~so I hope one day we will get a reboot because there is no way they can't adress it if they let the story go on~ (okay maybe they find one ~ but I hope we will be able to let them not do that) hope dies last :)
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
@@NiKaTaru definitely this show needs to be rebooted I really hate the pie scene in the finale and I hated that people blame Jenson for what happened in episode 18 he,s an actor like any other actor or actresses who just doing there job by following the script plus he didn't agree or like the ending either he was so right it was so bad and stupid but I do love that castiel was able to Express his true feelings for dean at least Andrew dabb and Bobby singer allowed that moment to happen but I still hate the final season and seasons 12 through 14 and I still believe that dean is bi sexual
@NiKaTaru
3 жыл бұрын
@@cynthiaholmes5124 I am sure he is~ and nobody will ever convince me otherwise ~ and I think Jensen is a great actor who understood Dean the best so he acted the best he could in the frame they let him do so~ also there are surely were many versions of any scene were an actor would have maybe chosen a different version as the one that got chosen in the end ~ so who knows what will happen in 5 years from now
@gallopingbeansfoster
3 жыл бұрын
I loved your intro. Spot on! I agree with everything you said. Also spot on! I like the jump about Dean calling his father "John" because that's something Cas gave him. I never thought about it before, but it's so dead on, and I feel like this shows that Dean has been puzzling through everything Cas said at the end. I appreciated you going into the demographics. It helps me to feel a little less angry at the show...BUT more angry at society. That's one thing I hate about Destiel...I'm ok one minute, and flaming pissed the next. I am not ok more often than not, but I've learned to hide it better at this point. And also, in the end of your video, you were pissed at the ending. I love it. I agree. I'm with you.
@syolyte
3 жыл бұрын
That end rant
@yellohcards
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you! I'm still not over these episodes. I will forever be frustrated.
@sdl1ishappy
3 жыл бұрын
Also, thank you for mentioning the Republican audience of the show, and that audience was a reason the show continued as long as it did. And I think it is fair to say a big hunk of that audience was completely oblivious to the subtext and that audience would rage if the show had made Destiel officially canon. Rage. It might have blown up in a much more negative and terrible way, become a target of the culture war and made cons highly unpleasant and perhaps even dangerous. It would have made media appearances for the actors far more unpleasant than they were. That's where we are right now. It's not right but it is where we are. I also would have preferred Destiel to stay in subtext in the same way the film The Shawshank Redemption is. That way you can fill in the blanks and see what you want to see. As someone who loves subtext, studies subtext and thinks subtext is often more effective than text...it's a valid choice to leave things open to interpretation. It gives agency to the audience, and that's a beautiful thing. It's why people invested so much into Destiel in the first place. I love representation, I love overtly queer narratives but that doesn't diminish the power of subtext for me. So I hear you and I am right there with you on this topic.
@AtomicVertigo_Comics
3 жыл бұрын
its funny that you say the republican audience of the show, where i think they seem to make up most of the audience lol which is something i never thought possible, but now that i think about it, a lot of my right wing family members actually like spn a lot haha and yes, subtext destiel was and should have continued to be the legacy, the canonization of the ship was the wrong decision and i think it will live on in infamy
@dinosaurlady2
3 жыл бұрын
My husband and I are straight/cis, lean considerably right with politics, and we absolutley rooted for Destiel. And husband doesn't. Ship. Anything. ..ever.lol. but he got on board with these two goofballs. 🥰 So, like, it's not all of us that are jerks. ☺ Love your videos, Bob! I get super excited when I see a new video from you. The content is such good quality, and you're very intelligent and funny. Perfect combo 👍 Edit: just wanted to add, my hubby says "so they (writers of spn) chickened out, huh." Because Dean didn't reciprocate. I just said "yea" while trying not to cry like a baby. Held my tears in until Dean makes that sob/choking sound at the end and it fades to black.
@norasavage19
3 жыл бұрын
Hello, fellow bisexual here. I really enjoy your videos, they perfectly encapsulate a lot of how I feel as a bisexual watching this show, especially when watching Dean and Cas’ characters and relationship develop throughout it. That last little segment hit very close to home. So thank you. Your videos are very validating 💗
@tackyshirtscollector
3 жыл бұрын
Perfectly timed actually! Just in time for 7 months anniversary of 15x18. Very cool dude!
@elliot2331
3 жыл бұрын
I remember just quietly crying all throughout the commercial break that following Cas' death.
@squidge125
3 жыл бұрын
You Bob would be ideal to do that interview with Misha. Your balanced and calm opinions hopefully would put him at ease.
@danielleb5016
3 жыл бұрын
THANK YOU. It was somewhat healing to hear someone else say exactly how I have been feeling about this ending for months! You summed it up beautifully. You are 1000% correct that the problem here is that they confirmed Cas's feelings...and then just left it there. Like actually letting him say "the one thing I want I can't have" and then NEVER bringing it up again!? That is so incredibly hurtful. I totally hear you when you say that it is just one more example of someone else choosing whether queer people get to exist or have rights...and that is what hurts so much. It may be "just a tv show" but it was a TV show we loved, and they really stuck the knife in and twisted at the end...when they so easily could have just never addressed the issue. Thank you for your rant!
@foxymoon7860
3 жыл бұрын
It will never be ''just a TV show'' because the content in the media as a whole affects the perspective of the audiences and they reflect and change the society for the better or worse. When it comes to representation (not just lgbtq+ but also race and other marginilized groups) media as a whole has a vast and impactful affect on the norms and society and peoples. So it well never be about ''just a show''. What they did was really ridiculous. I didnt even need a reciprocation, I just wanted the show to acknowledge Castiel as a character. What they did was a next level of homophobia on another whole level, because they completely erased Castiel from the narrative. That's the definiton of bury your gays and erasure for me. It's not even about Dean at this point, it's about something more on a story and narrative and meta sense. The moment Castiel came out, the story decided to erase all mentions of him.
@danielleb5016
3 жыл бұрын
@@foxymoon7860 Honestly I completely agree with you. As an English teacher, I couldn't agree more with what you are saying about how media (and storytelling) impacts an audience. So true.
@KaylaChan90
3 жыл бұрын
The confession itself is beautiful.... but yeah... everything surrounding it's a mess. Today is the 7 month mark of it airing.... And STIL it seems like two or three days a week we learn about more and more of Cas-post-confession was cut, even as far as mentioning him. The confession is beautiful, because we all know the one he confessed to, WOULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING, and yet.... most of the times they recorded him mentioning Cas.... are deleted scenes... I love them, I love that we know they are canon, I love that we all know both the perfect 'earth-ending' & "heaven-ending' SHOULD have been. I HATE that we live in a fucked up world, where the owners of the show are trying to erase what little we got, I DESPISE that such a beautiful relationship was fucked over to try to 'please' everyone. This video, and a lot of the other comments, cover it so much better, and I'm writing this while tired so sorry if it sounds rambly.
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
I really hate that Andrew dabb decided to do fan service in the last four seasons and basically ruined one great moment in the final season by erasing castiel and the lore and the mythology of the series 🤢🤮🥶🤯😬😡🤬
@KaylaChan90
3 жыл бұрын
@@cynthiaholmes5124 I don't like that Dabb decided to perma kill the boys at the end... But a lot of pusg back was from higher up than him
@juli2715
3 жыл бұрын
honestly as horribly sad as it it, it's VERY funny that this show was secretly 12 years of tragic gay love and it pulled a republican audience in especially.. i love that ! but seriously, the end rant there is *so* true. like the entire thing felt like a slap in the face to all of us. i can't even get started how bad representation is for bisexuals (especially men!) and if they could have done something good with this? that would be so crazy, but that would obviously be too much to even dream of because it feels like all that was really thought about here was how they could least hurt the conservatives feelings and give us some shitty rainbow capitalism on a platter and expect us to be pleased with it.
@junichis.5097
3 жыл бұрын
As someone who's pretty sure they're straight (but I hope I'd have the nerve to accept myself if things ever did go that way), it's one thing hearing about how a group of people is mistreated and another soul-sickening thing entirely to watch it happen with your own two eyes. I have no doubt they left things as open ended as they did specifically because they KNEW, they fucking KNEW, we were going to write our own endings anyway. I think they literally set things up so ambiguously so that people not bound and gagged by networks and contracts and fear of professional repercussions had the space and set up they needed to finish the SPN story in the way that felt truest to them. I will never forget an interview where Misha emphasized how important it was that people be able and willing to write their own ending. As if he already had a damned bead on the future. This will be the second time I've seen the trigger pulled at the last possible second on a non-binary relationship (Legend of Korra, anyone?) - and this was only a half-pull. The "finish it or don't start it" sentiment holds water enough to drown every artist/writer who ever has or ever will commit that sin.
@austinhall9426
3 жыл бұрын
As soon as I get this notification I’m in!
@papirtrane
3 жыл бұрын
I have loved every single one of your videos in this series, and this one is no different. I agree so wholeheartedly that they should've just never pulled the trigger on Cas confessing if they never intended to have Dean process it on screen in some way. I still can't really watch that scene and feel the way I wish I could feel at a canon "I love you" from Cas to Dean. If you had told me 6-7 years ago, when I was in my deepest obsession with this show and this ship, that we would get a scene like that, my mind probably would've exploded, but it was with so much apprehension that I watched it unfold, it felt so unreal and unbelievable, and I felt so certain that they would fuck it up in the end, that I couldn't truly enjoy it until the last ep had aired, and lo and behold....... they fucked it up more royally than I even imagined they could.
@WinterChildAutumnMind
3 жыл бұрын
I very much enjoy your series and this is another great video. I feel your anger at the end, this ending was such a slap in the face to fans, especially queer fans, and a huge disservice to the characters as well. I'm one of the people with another opinion on the confession though. As a bi, ace person who strongly identifies with Cas it felt extremly validating to have him actually say out loud to be in love with Dean and confirm his queerness. And his love for Dean being what saves the universe, I absolutely love it. Not to mention the validation I got as someone who loved destiel for 8 years. Shippers have been told it's all in our heads for so long (not by the writers though. That's a popular misconception in fandom. No one writing for the show ever said anything negative about destiel) so to get confirmation that we were right this whole time felt amazing. So I wouldn't wanna trade the confession for anything. But what came afterward still hurt like hell and made zero sense. And while to me everything the show did give us makes it very obvious Dean reciprocated Cas feelings it's so frustrating he was not allowed to say it out loud too. And for Cas to never get to hear it back. It's just another reminder that for all the progress we've made in terms of queer representation in recent years there's still such a long way to go.
@jeanpilgrim3864
3 жыл бұрын
Hey Bob, thank you for this long, elaborate, passionate and, as always, very relatable and enjoyable video!!
@foxymoon7860
3 жыл бұрын
Beautifully written!
@hetta86
3 жыл бұрын
One of my favorite parts of your videos is the informations about NDAs, market research and how the movie industry works in general. But back to the plot of the 3 final episodes - I managed to stay calm about them only because I subscribe to the hypothesis that Chuck actually won, and Sam and Dean just didn't realise this.
@syesmyc
3 жыл бұрын
go off king!! you put all my frustrations and anger with how the show handled the last episodes into words and that rant at the end of the video was cathartic to listen to
@skywalkereddd
3 жыл бұрын
i’ve been looking forward to these every week since the start and this was one especially was an incredible watch. can’t wait for your bi dean videos 💜
@marydodge9844
3 жыл бұрын
I have enjoyed going to cons SO much, and had (have) tickets to the 2020 Chicago con which is currently postponed to 2022. But yeah, I'm just DREADING the potential awkwardness of the panels when these questions come up and people don't get the responses they want to hear. I wish we could all just collectively agree to pretend Season 15 never happened. In my opinion, the best thing to come out of Season 15 was your KZitem channel!
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
Oh I totally agree with that season 15 was absolutely pure garbage and that finale was so ridiculous it makes me want to vomit one of the top ten worst series finale ever right next to lost dexter game of thrones and pretty little liars the only two things I even liked about the final season was that Jack becomes god so at least the horrors Kelly went through and somehow even though I hated that she died in season 12 wasn't for nothing and that castiel was able to accept who he is but besides that it was so awful 🤯😬🤪🥶🤢🤮😠😡🤬💩
@actnormal3413
3 жыл бұрын
yeah the cons will be terrifying! i wish that the had writer/director panels, because as much as people love the actors, in the end i dont really think they have that much of a say in decisions. it never made sense to me that they didn’t, because i would assume that they know exactly what they can and cant say. It makes me sad though that Cas’ ending was a massive deal and nobody is even going to be able to talk about it 😞
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
And I also enjoyed the fact that rowena ended up being queen of hell so at least one female character in this show had an actual decent ending but besides this and Jack becoming god and castiel confession I still hate season 15 and the finale 💝💖🤯😬🥶😠😡🤬
@distudio13
3 жыл бұрын
As usual your videos are the biggest mood ever! The amount of thought and care that went into episode 18 is incredible, and is clearly the last episode certain people were truly happy/satisfied to make (from what I gather). The context of the deal is rough, but Cas always comes back to Dean, so I didn’t really think much of it. Episode 18 was the infinity war to an endgame. Top that with all of the writing of episode 4, I figured 19 and 20 were either going to be a satisfying endgame level ending (unlikely), or a Chuck wins and everyone dies tragedy because obviously (more likely). Nowhere did I think they would present the tragedy, and then start lying that they didn’t pick that ending. You hit the nail on the head with the whole finish what you start, or don’t start at all bit. Dean for sure was never going to share a full on make out with Cas, because their relationship was never about anything like that. They both simply used each other to survive life and keep from being suicidal. Maybe that’s just my ‘why does eveything have to come back to kissing and sex’ talking but that’s how I saw it. All of this aside, there will never be anything more harmful than this show being about fighting for life/living for 15 years, only to at the last minute say ‘who cares about living when everyone ends up in heaven anyway!! Isn’t that great?’🤢🤮 I don’t care about what the intensions were at different times, this is the message I received from that final episode and it is unforgivably disgusting. Sorry for the longer comment, I have a lot of feelings too.
@coleb9392
3 жыл бұрын
yes! destiel wise I got more than I expected and was happy enough to have Cas. BUT everyone acting like the main issue with the finale was a ship instead of because of the super dangerous message it sends to a lot of fans with mental health problems, That was THEE worst ending they could have done. How 19 ended would have been better.
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
@@coleb9392 so true episode 19 should had been the finale episode 20 was so darn stupid when the episode ended I was so angry Andrew dabb is a total idiot I he really wasted the potential on a lot of characters including castiel and dean and sam but also he definitely should had brought back Jesse Turner the half human half demon child
@coleb9392
3 жыл бұрын
@@cynthiaholmes5124 they actually originally had Dean mention Jesse in the script for Destiny’s Child but they cut it for zero reason
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
@@coleb9392 didn't know that but still Jesse Turner should had returned to the series especially since Andrew dabb decided to introduce a new character for sam dean and castiel I really hated the hole storyline of Lucifer impregnate Kelly Kline in season 12 because he could had just tried to find Jesse plus I found that hole situation with what Lucifer did to be rape and i really hate where tv shows do things like pretty little liars did that in there final season with toby thinking he was sleeping with Spencer but he wasn't he was sleeping with alex her twin sister and alison husband had her unconscious so he could deliberately have her impregnate with Emily's eggs and wren sperm that's so disgusting and disturbing and straight up evil and awful it makes me sick 🤯😬😠😡🤬😤🤢🤮
@coleb9392
3 жыл бұрын
@@cynthiaholmes5124 yeah he is Lucifer tho. He’s done it before. Can’t expect much less than evil with the devil. Plus gaining trust by using who the person they love most he uses every time. Jack would still be a more powerful character to have than Jesse. And they needed a character to rival God that only came into being because of Cas. God had no control over Cas. They wrapped up more loose ends than I expected given how many they are.
@NotToLateToChange
3 жыл бұрын
Hide your gays 😂😂😂. TBH that's the best way to describe what happened.
@TooSplicedUp13
3 жыл бұрын
I'm depressed about this whole thing all over again
@remyhanes9568
3 жыл бұрын
I love the fact that I can not agree with all your opinions and we can still unite on the front of just utter rage at the entire situation. I hope you were able to step back from this and find peace and if not now, soon. Thank you for making this video. It’s pride so happy pride, From one trans pan destiel shipper to one bi destiel shipper. We’re all in this together.
@grammerincorrect
3 жыл бұрын
have loved your whole deep dive ❤️ i'm bi myself and completely relate to your rant at the end. when it comes to the rating part, the thing i can't wrap my head around (maybe because i'm not in the us) but the cw has sooo many other shows with openly queer characters (which they often still write/deal with badly), so what is the difference between their other shows and supernatural? is it because it's such a legacy, whereas other shows have newer characters? is it because of the showrunners themselves? the cw used to be the wb/upn which both made buffy, with willow and tara's relationship being a huge part of the show 20 years ago. i think they must've just been scared to upset their conservative audiences, but jfc it's 2021. they had the power to set the agenda for this conversation, and the insane middle ground they tried to walk instead is just a terrible move.
@grammerincorrect
3 жыл бұрын
also, they wrote these characters!! they didn't have to make deancas such a great pairing!! they could have written in a different love interest! they could have made either of them change in a way that meant they weren't as close anymore! what the hell was happening in the writers room??
@grammerincorrect
3 жыл бұрын
okay so i have more thoughts lmao. the two guys characters aside, was it because they are two grown ass men?? if they were younger, maybe women, would that have been something the network would have greenlit or possibly even pushed for?
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
I totally agree with but i totally understand why they couldn't bring another love interest in for either castiel or dean was because in the early seasons of supernatural when ever the writers tried to the female fans would just hate the character on sight like Anna milton from season 4 she was supposed to be Dean's love interest in season 5 but Eric kripke decided since the fans hated her to ruin her character by making her a villain and kill her off in season 5 I hope bob does a video on this subject 😬🤯😡🤬🤪😤
@grammerincorrect
3 жыл бұрын
@@cynthiaholmes5124 yeah i agree, that's definitely why they did all that. but it's just weak writing really? it's their show, why pander to the most ignorant parts of the fanbase?
@innisneill7510
3 жыл бұрын
I had the same question! They have so many queer characters on other shows, right?! Bob showing how Spn is popular among republicans is the first time this kind of starts ro make sense to me.
@loopydoopy4197
3 жыл бұрын
it’s nearly midnight but who needs sleep anyway
@catzkeet4860
3 жыл бұрын
You got so many of the reasons I hated the ending. There was NO resolution in that ending. There was a definite whiff of “this destiel thing is annoying af so let’s get it outta the way so we can concentrate on “the bro’s” “ and finish this thing. Once Cas was gone, it was like he’d never existed. Not just that it wasn’t what it appeared, but like it never happened. Those last shows were a misstep.....both storytelling wise and character wise. If the theme was love and loss, then Dean evidently didn’t lose much, cos......nuthin. And honestly, I do not believe that! I mean even if it was all “you’re like a brother to me” he’d have given a shit........but this was just.......*crickets* Youre right, it was positively hostile the way Cas went and then........... ZERO emotional consequence......half baked bullshit! I know that Jensen wasn’t happy with the ending, and really had to be talked into it, and I really hope that he, and the other main characters understood how unsatisfying that ending was and why many, MANY fans dislike it, but in the end, they’re actors.....their job is to say the lines and make em convincing, they don’t make the decisions. (Oh and trust me, you didn’t cuss nearly as much as I cuss when faced with the same level of stupid....and I’m a nzer and we’re almost as good as aussies when it comes to the cussin’ !!)
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
I truly feel sorry for the actors especially for Jenson because he was so right the final season and the finale was so bad and just full on stupid just like with game of thrones and charmed the original series but there finale was better than there's 🤔☺️🤪🤯😬😡🤬
@foxymoon7860
3 жыл бұрын
@@cynthiaholmes5124 Even Game of Thrones had a better ending. The season was already dragging and it was a given that the series was not gonna able to wrap things up. The pacing was terrible because of it. Though even GoT was able to wrap things up to a better degree compared to SPN. With SPN, there are just too many plot holes and unresolved plot points that I don't even know where to begin. We don't know who is Death now for example, Lucifer killed the last one. So who became Death after that? Empty being loud plot line was completely forgotten. We don't know what happened to Kevin. Like I could go on. It's like the writers suddenly got amnesia and just didn't even bother to address any sort of plot points. Even GoT didn't do something like that. In addition, GoT was able to give decent endings to some of its characters like the Stark siblings (don't want to mention them bc of spoilers but...) Samwell Tarly, even Brienne and Tyrion etc. With SPN I really can't imagine a single character who got a decent closure. Dean died a very parodic death after everything he's fought for and against. His chance at life was still taken away from him within weeks after Chuck's defeat. Not to mention it went against the themes of gaining free will and fighting against destiny and fighting for living. His character basically had no resolution at all. Sam lost all of his development and self-journey as a character only to get a boring apple-pie life. Cas just got completely erased from the narrative. Jack just became God at the age of 3, then vanished to never be seen again. He never appears or we never hear from him again. How's this a satisfying character conclusion at all?
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
@@foxymoon7860 your kinda right the only person by the final season that actually had a great ending was rowena because even though she dies she becomes queen of hell she is basically the only female character through out the series that has some how got a decent ending and also Garth married with kids living a happy life 🤔🤨😊😉🤗
@foxymoon7860
3 жыл бұрын
@@cynthiaholmes5124 Yeah but I wish we got to hear from them! We don't really know if Rowena was able to take control of the demons because last time we saw Hell it was kinda in rebellion. And we don't know what happened to Garth and his family, did Jack bring them back, are they still werewolves or are normal humans now? A lot of stuff in the series had to be addressed like... they didnt even bother. It just saddens me.
@ZombieBalladry
3 жыл бұрын
Honestly I totally agree with everything here. I didn't get the Destiel vibes right away but when it clicked oh man did it click. Whether or not subtext was intentional by the actors or anyone else involved didn't make a difference. When I finished off the show I was DEVASTATED by how they did Cas dirty. He was such an important character in and to the show. The fact that everything turned out how it did because of his loyalty to Dean specifically but also to Sam and the boys' cause just gets dropped like it wasn't a major plot point. And then to ignore the connections he has with Dean because things were "getting too gay" for them was bullshit. And to be honest I'm really offended at the show on Dean's behalf as well. As a bisexual woman who was told to ignore her feelings for the same sex "because people wouldn't like it" I get so frustrated that the show hints and hints and hints but never acknowledges or goes into the fact that Dean might be bisexual. Thank you for all your hard work on this analysis. I actually marathoned all 15 parts at once because I was having a bad day and stumbled upon this.
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
Castiel definitely deserved better and so did dean I truly believe that he's bi sexual out of the three castiel totally got the worst treatment second to dean castiel was totally erased in the last two episodes God I really hate that because he was my favorite character and the way dean dies I was so angry and shocked that dabb could just came up with something so stupid and so ridiculous there's no closure between castiel and dean 😥😭😤🤯😬😠😡🤬
@ZombieBalladry
3 жыл бұрын
@@cynthiaholmes5124 he was my favorite too. i didn't mind the exact details of how dean died because it was a risk of the job now that they were kind of own their own. i think it was a missed opportunity for the writers to not give dean the beach experience in heaven like he was talking to sam. but yeah. it's really awful that cas was SO important to all of them and it's "oh, he died. deans gonna cry for five minutes and then we're over it." Like WHAT?!
@foxymoon7860
3 жыл бұрын
@@ZombieBalladry I think the writers epically screwed with Dean's character at the end as well. It kinda felt weird to me. Like as if they knew that giving Dean an apple-pie life like they gave to Sam wouldn't work, so they decided to kill him off for nothing. Aside from that knowing the fact that Dean fought so hard and so much for living, to get his free will and then move on... it was really a bad choice to end his character like that after everything he's fought for and against. That to the point it made it seem like life was worthless to live at all, and that everyone could just die and enter Heaven. It went against everything the series stood for prior to the finale. Some people say that Dean wanted to die like that, and I'm like...? Is that way he tried so hard to gain control of his life and get his free will and wanted to live? Just to die on a random hunt after everything he's done? And on one of John's unfinished works at that. It was disturbing and a very shitty narrative choice on writers' side. Like literally all of the characters got screwed over for nothing. It didn't even fit the narrative and buildup and everything that was going in the season. Sam, Dean, Cas, Jack, Eileen, Charlie and others all got screwed.
@zeeimpalaangel8817
3 жыл бұрын
You could not have finished that stronger. 👏🏾👏🏾
@thewalkingcat5542
3 жыл бұрын
I also did not expect a confession, up to that scene I thought that Cas' happiness had to do with Jack, him saving the world or the boys or something. 4:23 Jensen doesn't need artificial tears, he can cry when needed. Not sure about Misha, but he said preparing for that scene was difficult for him. That scene had so many "technical" issues, like tears in one scene, no tears in the next. I believe if they had the time to reshoot some of it it would have been much better. Also that Misha was not able to hold his Cas voice throughout the scene is understandable but no helping.
@foxymoon7860
3 жыл бұрын
I didn't expect his true happines being about Jack because it kinda... would be weird? Cas already made the deal with the Empty in order to save Jack, his first sacrifice was for Jack in that sense. So the Empty deal resolution had to be something else. Jensen has mentioned that alot of this reactions were cut from that scene. Honestly it doesn't surprise me. In one moment Dean has tears in his eyes, then seconds later he has none? It was very weirdly adjusted and just weirdly edited in order to make Dean seem a lot more emotionless during the scene imo.
@jennilocke
3 жыл бұрын
"WELL THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM" ain't that the truth lol
@epohmp4
Жыл бұрын
4:36 that empty noise haunts me.
@angelical.3384
Жыл бұрын
As a bisexual women, that rant at the end was HEALING.
@newhorizons1
3 жыл бұрын
😭😢😭 This still hurts..💔 i love them... Love your channel.
@burakcelikbilek1256
3 жыл бұрын
I have just taken a calculus test and I opened youtube and saw your video. You just made my day...
@anon0124
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for addressing the "problematic" and challenging stuff that the cast has and hasn't said. I think it's a good point, like the meta-textual information from actors and cons are not going to fix the problems in the text. Like the text is problematic and doesn't have good representation, the actors aren't going to fix that. I also think by your own definition, it is queerbaiting not well intentioned. I think the episode with the play where they literally call out Destiel and Dean seems disgusted by it.
@whatshouldinamemyself215
3 жыл бұрын
ok i guess the one difference in opinion is that even tho i know exactly what you're talking about, i've been there too and it's really upsetting to have this set up without a payoff, it really gave me headaches thinking about it, i still think it's better that they tried anyway, they tried and they failed but if things aligned differently it could have worked, but you're not even giving yourself a chance at a lgbt character/ship if you won't even try
@nuktedoesarts
Жыл бұрын
Nah he definitely was crying, the continuity shows they didn’t mean for him to cry but I personally think Jensen did actually cry.
@djinnsbetpools
3 жыл бұрын
Yes, they were cowards. I hate what they did to these characters. The way you see videos prior Season 15 wherein Jensen says that these characters didn't deserve a dismissive, depressing ending after all that they lived through, and that's exactly what the show gave them, just to put the show back to the Season 1 premise. You don't do that to a show that has gone through several showrunners; that's just dumb. If you've started on a solid tangent on how you finally wanted the characters to have developed after 12 years, and built that legacy up for four years, then you either fucking break the mold of Season 1-3 or don't. There is no half-assed option. They were crazy stupid to leave the characters' fates up to an open debate, and even Jensen said he wasn't a fan of that stupid open ending, right up until he had to defend it when the studio decided on it. This show... How it failed... How they handled this... The conversation will never be over. What they did to these characters was a travesty that will never be forgiven.
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
So true even though both Eric kripke and Jeremy Carver made mistakes when they were showrunners on the show they didn't mess up the way Andrew dabb and Bobby singer totally screwed up the character arcs of dean and sam in the last four seasons that's one of the biggest problems with the final season and the finale I really hate that there was no growth no change between them from there co dependence with each other to not having a moment of dean mourning over castiel and we don't even know who sam married in the finale god these last four seasons was filled with so much wasted potential for sam and dean to me only castiel and Jack and rowena were the only characters during this time that evolved like castiel stepping up to become a father to Kelly's son and love and protect him to accepting who he is and then there's Jack son of Lucifer a half human half angel who's mother dies giving birth to him who doesn't want to be evil who wants to help people and protect those he loves and that's exactly what happens he becomes a deity rowena a witch who always chooses power over anything else after centuries as a witch not caring about anyone till she's reunited with her son and slowly she starts to care about crowley only to lose him that's when she realized that she did loved her son and sacrifices herself to close the gates of hell in the end she becomes queen of hell yeah totally wasted 😤🤯😬😠😡🤬
@foxymoon7860
3 жыл бұрын
@@cynthiaholmes5124 They were nice developments that they wrote for Sam and Dean. I personally was a fan of Sam's character development and him becoming a leader of the hunters and deciding to learn witchcraft. That was so good for Sam's self journey as a character, he finally accepted his place in the hunter life and that he no longer saw his powers or demon blood as him being a freak. In addition, his bound with Jack was really nice. I also liked that Sam and Dean had opposite character arcs and journeys in the show (up until that finale episode mess), that Sam's self journey and arc was him accepting himself and finding a life in this supernatural world, whereas Dean's journey was him realizing that he was more than a blunt instrument, a killer or a tool under John's orders. Then the writers (or execs, whatever) decided to flush those down the toilet by erasing Sam's self journey in favor of a bland apple-pie life, and then just killing Dean off pointlessly instead of giving him the chance to heal. The finale episode took so much from the characters, their self journeys, arcs and developments... all of it. It was so disconnected from the rest of the story and narrative that it felt like a parody. And that Castiel and Jack erasure was so bad that it hurt my eyes. They emphasized so much on the Team Free Will but then nothing was left of it when they erased Jack and Cas from the narrative completely.
@caloffee
2 жыл бұрын
i saw someone say this on tumblr but i'm gonna repeat it here because it comforts me the finale was in the universe of the french mistake. that's why cas couldn't be there, because in that universe, misha was violently murdered- this is kind of a crack theory and there's so many reasons why that isn't possible but it's the only thing keeping me standing from absolute madness
@kara_keegan_2242
3 жыл бұрын
This show made me switch sides, be confused. Change my mind, be frustrated, ship and then not ship. Hate and then not hate so many times, and I hate this show for it. It has given me so many headaches and if they never started destiel and kept them strictly as friends I would have been fine and happy. It's the frustration of trying to fucking decide if dean is in love with cas or not and I have changed and switched my view 500 time s and it's annoying and ruined my life. This show has made me laugh and have great moments. But the constant opinion and debating we have to do with this show is awful. I wish I didnt try to get so into the show and be neutral about everything
@kairiwillow
3 жыл бұрын
I love when the bob wess man gets bitchy 😂😂😂 no but for real your videos are always well thought out and I LOVE how you go into depth on everything!!
@blurb98atthemax94
3 жыл бұрын
I just want you to know that your videos have been so spot-on and refreshing, and also your eloquence and thought-process for some of the events in the show as well as the characters has actually, genuinely made me a better writer! Thank you.
@rajaprithyangra4160
2 жыл бұрын
The way you ended this video gave me chills. Love your videos and love the way you talk about destiel. Keep up the good work ❤️
@igneousmoon
3 жыл бұрын
The never mentioning of cas again and the never struggling with it made me soooo angry 😠
@ariananichols7827
3 жыл бұрын
I love this video. You deserve to be heard! Your opinions are valid and I could not agree more with all of them! I look forward to your future videos and I am so happy you have the platform to be heard. You are valid and nothing will ever be able to change that!!💗💜💙
@matetraub7153
3 жыл бұрын
I HAVE BEEN WAITINGGGGG. And I'm not disappointed in your video once again.
@foxymoon7860
3 жыл бұрын
What really angers me is that some people think this situation/issue is about ''just a ship''. It's not and it never was. What people recieve from media shapes and changes the society for better or worse. And it's not just about lgbtq+ representation as well, it's about general representation about marginalized groups in the media. So I can't accept the ''argument'' of ''it's just a TV show, get over it''. Why should I? The content in the media as a whole affects the perspective of the audiences and they reflect and change the society in return. If we just sit and accept stuff like this, then the media will never change or develop for the better. And we have the right to criticize and be angry about it. Because that's how the change works. People who think that ''it's just about a ship'' don't understand the real context here. In a sense it's downright gaslighting even. It's malicious on purpose. I don't deserve to be gaslight by the 'fans' or the writers or actors. I am not blind nor do I see ''stuff that aren't there''. The intentional gaslight and gatekeep was just getting tiring anyway. All this criticisms about representation aside... it was just ridiculous from a storytelling and narrative perspective. There was no follow up. Even if they intended to leave it as ''ambious'' it was done very absurdly and it was ridiculous. I didnt even need a reciprocation, I just wanted the show to acknowledge Castiel as a character. What they did was a next level of homophobia on another whole level, because they completely erased Castiel from the narrative. That's the definiton of bury your gays and erasure for me. It's not even about Dean at this point, it's about something more on a story and narrative and meta sense. The moment Castiel came out, the story decided to erase all mentions of him. And it says a lot, really. When people look back and think about the series in the future, they'll realize all this mess and unfortunately, I don't think SPN will be remembered nicely in 10 or 20 years or so. Considering the fact that society will have developed further... I don't think SPN have a nice legacy left to be remembered.
@Chimney86
3 жыл бұрын
In my opinion they just wanted to show how "bro love" is more important than "romantic love" (meaning "man/woman love" cause gay people don't even exist in their sexist minds). Notice how they had fun killing everyone who showed romantic love on the show, like minor characters, the ones who die at the beginning of an episode. They always die in the more horrible way, as if the writers are having fun spitting on romantic love. So let's assume they wanted to focus on bros/family, okay... the failed. The reason why they failed to me is because they treat their main characters as romantically in love with each other (minus the sex). The brothers relationship is toxic and based on codependency. That's not how brothers should be, this is not love and certainly not brotherly love. It shouldn't be "romantic love" VS "family love" but to the SPN writers it always was (i.e. one of the brother wanted to have Sex&Sandwiches via random female character, but alas! He's a hunter and this is the family business and he's coming back to the hunter life because Bros before Hoes). Only it's not "romance" VS "family", those 2 things shouldn't exclude each other (if they do there's something wrong with the people involved). Basically, SPN writers saw romantic love as just Sex, no love. If you also marry the hoe she will make you sandwiches the way Sam's blurry wife did, that's all. That's romantic love to them. That's why Cas and Dean who truly loved each other more than any other couple in tv history will ever do couldn't stay together in a "romantic way" (aka "have sex" since that's what romantic love was all about to those writers) IMO. That's a shame, they loved each other but they couldn't have all they needed out of the relationship (intimacy, kisses, etc.). I think that's why Dean was so angry throughout season 15. You know, when he says "I don't know why I'm always so angry", I was like "I know, Dean, you're sexually frustrated." He just needed a real kiss. He just needed romantic love, which is different from family and not in a bad way in the real world. Anyway sorry for the rant, my english is bad. I just loved your video and agree with you on almost everything. I wanted to share my thought.
@hymschnyldr3497
3 жыл бұрын
Love this!! pretty much summed up all frustrations I have in mind
@annanowaczyk4611
Жыл бұрын
I've been watching spn on and off since season 8. I remember that the last break I took was somewhere in the middle of season 14, and only kept searching for spoilers and descriptions of what was happening without actually watching the episodes. I knew I'd return to it after some time, having done the same thing a couple of times already, and catch up, but this time around it happened the next day after Despair aired on the 5th of November. I was in shock. Jumping, screaming, laughing, and brimming with happiness. And then came the last two episodes, which I watched live. And even though I hated them, hated how they treated Cas and Dean and Eileen and all of us fans... I was still happy then because at least we got this confession, and of course there was always fanfiction to turn to, etc. I never had the issue with escaping and submerging myself in fandom to "put my own spin on the story". But dear Lord after some time this high passed, and I wasn't even left angry. I was deeply saddened. Then came the anger, though brief. You've articulated it perfectly in this video: they shouldn't have done it at all if they were only going to go half-way. Because now it is so humiliating. I know why they had to do it, I guess. That's the world we live in. But the more idealistic part of me, this revolutionary, stubborn, set in my ways part is fuming and screaming: fuck the world, fuck the system, why didn't they do more?! In the end, however, I don't even know how to be angry because I don't have a clear target for my anger. And it's left me so drained. For them to do this so they could satisfy both us and the bigots. To do this so it would still, AGAIN, remain ambiguous. Something that can be denied and brushed off and swept under the rug.
@AtomicVertigo_Comics
3 жыл бұрын
as far as the politics of the show go, i am a moderate; but the politics they started to put in (which really aren't there in earlier seasons) were distasteful to me, as well. obviously the lgbtq+ characters and narratives arent and shouldnt be considered political, but it is disheartening when you see a show that is very obviously shared by both left wing and right wing people swing hard on one side in particular. spn was a non partisan gift that everyone loved :1 also canon destiel is definitely homophobic in one way or another. and i also agree that we should not be represented in media based off how profitable we are :( unfortunately thats how the industry works, hopefully with enough pressure(and support) lgbtq+ characters and shows will be considered normal and not novel~ thanks for the great video as always, bob!
@lillyrey5727
3 жыл бұрын
This was an amazing piece and agree whole heartedly!!
@unknownguest4575
3 жыл бұрын
yo i had the whole ending on x2 speed and yes say that!!!! say thhhat!! so many good points
@MarinaDelgadopjimpro12
3 жыл бұрын
I don't know where to start... This is your best video so far. The anger at the end? The way you finished it? Brilliant. Thanks for putting into words how I feel (and a lot other people). I'm bi and I haven't come out because I've never been closeted, but I still feel everything you said by heart. Sick of governments deciding over our lives in regarding of our sexuality? BULLSHIT. And a TV show is in fact important!! How tv shows manage queer people is primal in order to educate, to show the world that we are not an invention or a liberal movement. Queer people have always existed, it is only now that we are allowed to be public about it (but are we really?)
@SnowyMary
3 жыл бұрын
I'm not even through the vid, but "that whole thing is a problem. it's a lot of problems, but it's not THE problem" .. I *felt* that.
@kateryna1611
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video! I don't know whether to punch something or cry... I am still not ok.
@miloulejeune6124
2 жыл бұрын
holy sh*t, that rant gave me literal chills. I’m so glad to hear that someone finally managed to put into words the train wreck that was this end. I was never able to explain why I hated ending because all my friends were always like: But he said ‘I love you’. So thank you SO MUCH. (I am the only queer person in my friend group of straight friends so it’s really hard to convey my emotions to people that have never had to worry about stuff like that)
@anon0124
3 жыл бұрын
Dropping this in the middle of the night! Sneaky! Can't believe this is the penultimate one.
@dianamijde5543
3 жыл бұрын
awesome video, as always was hard to watch, made harder by some personal stuff ive been going trough . I appreciatie you (falling in love with someone of the same gender for the first time, really struggling with it)
@infrasonix6794
2 ай бұрын
Strange. Bob on a bad day is me on a good day. Fascinating!
@erineko1847
3 жыл бұрын
Good job 👏!
@HereForTheShips
Жыл бұрын
That was what hurt me the MOST. How they didn't ever address it again. 15x18 is a great setup and then they do literally nothing with it and leave it incomplete forever. No other show would ever do that ever if it was a heterosexual couple. You can't have half of the ship confess their love and then never mention that it happened, and the other character doesn't even think about that moment again or anything?? The fans are naturally going to expect an answer to something THAT impactful and story-altering as a love confession. And especially with this being Dean! And Cas! Cas is so important to Dean, whether he was in love with Cas or not!! We have seen how much Dean suffered losing Cas in the past, how he couldn't even bear to live without him last time Cas was gone, how his mood changed completely when Cas was back, how he fell on his knees in Purgatory as he apologized to Cas for letting him go, etc. And this Cas, who is so important to Dean, has just died for him! And what killed him was his LOVE for Dean! What made Cas happy the most was his love for Dean! How could Dean not be completely undone after something like this?? It was completely out of character for Dean to just... forget about Cas now. Infuriatingly out of character. Dean would never let Cas just die like that and not mourn him or try to save him (we have established by this point the Empty is a terrible place) no matter what's going on in the world around him. That just isn't Dean. He would have at least asked Jack to bring him back or get him out of the Empty at LEAST. I don't even know. Dean had to give an answer. If it was "I don't feel that way about you, I'm sorry" then that's fine, but he had to say something. If not to Cas, then he should have had a moment alone to process what happened and react in SOME way. It's just incomplete without Dean's reaction. This story feels infuriatingly incomplete.
@dharabarot4033
2 жыл бұрын
I stopped watching the show in 2015 but tuned into the finale because the show and destiel was a big part of my exploration of my self and sexuality. I’m rewatching the show to be able to catch up but thank you for making this deep dive. It was therapeutic
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
They definitely should had put those deleted scenes in episode 19 it would had made it a much better episode plus it should had been the finale it had an actual feel of being the finale but once again dabb and Bobby singer totally screwed the whole thing up 😤😬🤯😡🤬💩🤢🤮
@musicalriotgrl1
3 жыл бұрын
Wow this video really upset me (I agree with. 97% of what you said) Supernatural is the worst show I've ever loved with my whole heart it is really is terrible with how it treats its lgbtq how it treats women and people of color as a black woman the show frustrates the fuck out of me I don't want to make this a gigantic long post I'm going to have to break down my thoughts and then post it on my Tumblr or something I don't know but I know thinking about this after watching this video is made me cry in anger I don't know about the market research but I've been conventions and 90% of it are white women who run the spectrum of sexuality they're the ones who spend the money they're the ones who watch every week so it's 100% queerbaiting because they'd know that's who they're actual audience is and when I say they I mean the CW Network I don't know about Misha's sexuality I don't live with him or know him personally but I would 100% feel comfortable calling him an ally and Jensen too and Misha like a true Ally like not just for performative shake
@cynthiaholmes5124
3 жыл бұрын
Yes misha is a big advocate for the LGBTQ community for years same for his wife Victoria but as much as I love the series it definitely had big problems like the way the female characters were treated I definitely agree with you on that from Charlie Bradbury to Ellen and Eileen and Kelly Kline and Anna milton and I hated the way the queer characters and people of color were treated if they ever do a reboot someday that's definitely the thing's I hope that they change 😬🤯😠😡🤬
@oiku4408
3 жыл бұрын
At the last minutes it was not Castiel who was speaking it was Misha. Misha overpowered cas right that moment
@foxymoon7860
3 жыл бұрын
That ''No shit you dumb fuck!'' gave me life lol!
@audreyii6750
2 жыл бұрын
Well, after waiting to watch your s15 videos after I rewatched all of SPN with my mom, turns out I'm _not_ over that whole 3 episode debacle Also, didn't notice the 8x02 & 15x18 parallels but I'll sure remember that Now!
@RandyJoseMarchenaSequeira
3 жыл бұрын
Love you... Love your videos and. . . PREACH IT!!
@pablitorogel14
3 ай бұрын
I wished there could be an epilogue to see Dean speaking to Cas in heaven just for some better closure.
@92martynap
3 жыл бұрын
I needed a week to brace myself for watching this. I'm surprised I still get angry over how they butchered their relationship in eps 19 and 20, but well, what we can do? Dean felt so OOC with lack of despair in trying to get Cas back. For the first time in the series he seriously didn't try every possible solution to bring someone so important to him. He just rolled with it despite having Jack as literal effin GOD. As you pointed out, where's harm in asking? I would be fine with Dean being just scared to act on any feelings he might have, but this HAS to be at least mentioned. Gosh, dude, say something, even that you are not interested and love him as a brother, whathever, but give us anything. Robo-Dean not addressing Cas's confession at all feels weak. We all know he is emotionally constipated, that's fine, but we got big pile of nothing with a bunch of "we don't care" writing sprinkles on top. Thanks for going through this with us, Bob, listening to your opinion feels like having mine voiced out. Also, it's cool to see almost 2K subs here, I remember being 69th and I believe that soon enough you will be celebrating 69K at least ;)
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