Man I would take WaW on veteran difficulty over Cod 2 any day without a shadow of a doubt. Taking out that bastard tank in fortress Stalingrad, The D-Day campaign, Hill 400 campaign and the final British campaign defending the farmhouse are probably some of the most painstakingly difficult moments in gaming I’ve been through. 11 year old me definitely had some rage moments hunting out these achievements. Thanks for bringing back such good (or bad) memories.
@probablybears
6 ай бұрын
The Soviet campaign was a complete cake walk on Veteran, and it lured me into a false sense of security. The other campaigns put me in my place.
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
Oh absolutely, goes from 0-100 real quick
@iusemyrealnamebefore
3 ай бұрын
Funnily enough, I have the most problem due to the soviet mission where you need to blow up one panzer after covering your friend with mg42, the game was fine after that
@suddsy_gaming
6 ай бұрын
This game is hard, but Call of Duty Classic on the 360 definitely tops this. I propose you give this a try, gave me nightmares for months
@suddsy_gaming
6 ай бұрын
Try my favorite “The Dam” and “Pavlov’s House”
@Vscojen
6 ай бұрын
Cod 1 is already really hard on PC but on Xbox? that's like impossible
@thegamehouse439
2 ай бұрын
@@Vscojen xbox live store
@qpgunslinger2288
6 ай бұрын
Price never grows old, just as old now as he was during ww2
@TheStella117
6 ай бұрын
It’s his grandfather
@Spartan122S
6 ай бұрын
So far the Call Of Duty achievement hunting videos have been my favorite videos of yours to watch. They give me the motivation to achievement hunt myself! I shall thank you for the motivation and your hard work!!
@SNOWDUDE13
6 ай бұрын
The fact that you willingly used the Thompson for Veteran is beyond terrifying. 😂
@wahwahwah6690
6 ай бұрын
Is it bad in COD 2?
@SNOWDUDE13
6 ай бұрын
@@wahwahwah6690 the small magazine was the main problem.
@ryanmccarthy7381
6 ай бұрын
Small magazine, little damage, annoying sound smh. MP40 gang, let’s get some high accuracy at the cost of fire rate over here.
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
Haha, yeah my brain should probably be studied at this point
@jameswright4236
6 ай бұрын
@ryanmccarthy7381 I mainly stuck with bolt-action rifles or when it became available in the final third of the game, the MP44.
@julz5915
6 ай бұрын
Those last few british missions are probably the hardest in the game
@sjlbean
6 ай бұрын
I went through this game on veteran a few months back, it was the first time in years I genuinely needed to walk away and take a break before I broke a controller
@michaeljones9553
6 ай бұрын
Not being able to shoot through light cover still frustrates me.
@garygilgomez747
6 ай бұрын
Cod 1 and Cod 3 are one of the most difficult games on veteran
@probower4726
6 ай бұрын
You gotta try call of duty United offensive, an expansion to the first CoD1. That one will also adequately test the old patience. Lovely video though!
@RichardPlucker
6 ай бұрын
I remember running this game on veteran as a kid, it was absolutely brutal. Props to you for taking it on
@ben501st
6 ай бұрын
It's amazing how the enemies fired Kar98k rifles like machine guns on Veteran.
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
pockets deep enough to carry 500 grenades as well
@mustardjar3216
6 ай бұрын
As someone who beat the game on veteran multiple times (its on a pirated copy so i dont have achievnents) and didnt find it overly difficult, ive got a few advices 1. Act like you are playing a tactical shooter, dont rush it and just roleplay it 2. Use your grenades, in the clip you showed of you getting stuck in that house on the silo mission shows you not using grenades. The game is very generous when it comes to grenade supplies, use them 3. Use the lean mechanic, this might be just a continuation of the first point but the lean mechanic really doea help 4. Use a keyboard and mouse, its just much easier to aim that way
@joshmallett5718
6 ай бұрын
No lean in cod 2
@Vscojen
6 ай бұрын
@@joshmallett5718there is Lean in Cod 2 you just cant do it on the consoles
@Epic-1224
6 ай бұрын
Honestly COD 2 veteran is still a piece of cake compared to COD 1 veteran, which is then a piece of cake compared to UNITED OFFENSIVE on veteran I've completed COD 2 on veteran twice for the entire campaign. And the part that give me the most trouble is the Tiger mission. The rate of enemy spawning is just ridiculous.
@jebbroham1776
6 ай бұрын
COD2 was pretty insane on Veteran. For a few levels like The Tiger I actually had to let my AI companions take some of the Germans in the houses out, which took a while but they did it.
@KylePhantomK94
6 ай бұрын
Beat this several years ago on Veteran. Got the achievos. Never going to do it again...
@oOignignoktOo1
6 ай бұрын
This game on veteran is more tolerable with a keyboard and mouse. However on 360 gamepad it's frustrating to play because the controller feels clunky. I did beat it on veteran on 360 on two accounts. The level I struggled with the most was taking over the village in France and stopping the mortar attack.
@M45terizBak
6 ай бұрын
random fact for you if you didnt know about the desert bunkers those chimey pipes you see are connected you can throw a granade down it and it kill all of the soldiers inside
@AlzzehHD
6 ай бұрын
I remember hill 400 was solid on this game, took me ages to beat it on veteran! The worst for me personally was Laison River from COD 3… my god… that game was insane!!
@Loozar402
6 ай бұрын
I’m pretty sure this was the first game I got 1000/1000 GS when I got my X360, and the Veteran campaign took me months! But it did give me that dopamine hit to make me the Trophy and Achievement hunter I ended up becoming
@sulrich384
6 ай бұрын
Great video as always! I'd love to see you tackle Hexic HD and some of the Crysis games next!
@Gr00t
6 ай бұрын
I beat this on veteran early last year, god this is giving me a ptsd episode lol. Trying to get through all the cods on veteran, currently up to MW2 so im pretty sure it's going to get easier from here thank god.
@tex4763
6 ай бұрын
On veteran only or will you do the hardest difficulty for each game cause YOLO on IW and realism on BO3 are gonna be fun
@jameswright4236
6 ай бұрын
Didnt really have that much issue provided you utliised cover well and made good use of bolt-action rifles. There were some tricky areas, such as the town hall in "The Tiger" and crossing the street towards the HQ in "The Silo." But with enough perseverance and a little bit of luck, you can overcome them.
@A.Warrior7
6 ай бұрын
Cod2 veteran> world at war veteran, you can't run, you can't throw grenades back, and when I was younger I made a challenge, use only mosin nsgant, lee enfield and m1 garand, imagine trying to clear a building on veteran with a mosin...
@SLIPKNOTmaggot262
Ай бұрын
I have the best memories of trying to beat this game on veteran. Countless hours after school either solo or with a friend attempting to complete it. Not to mention how much time we spent playing multiplayer as well. Good times
@sedgelord2760
6 ай бұрын
Love your videos! Can you try out Call of Duty Classic on Xbox 360. It has a grueling veteran campaign that I guarantee will be harder than both COD2 and WAW
@tex4763
6 ай бұрын
When I got this game I started my first playthrough on veteran, and I enjoyed it, it wasn’t so bad. I found call of duty 3 to be worse, but the game itself wasn’t the best, and the brightness was terrible and I couldn’t adjust it, so that’s likely why.
@Stoner63king
6 ай бұрын
I got all achievments on this game 2 veteran was a challenge
@myselfnooneelse3358
6 ай бұрын
i was obsessed with this game as a child, ive completed it multiple times on veteran, without crosshairs.
@Meistro215
6 ай бұрын
I forgot about this game I just started downloading it again
@MegaNancyLover
6 ай бұрын
People are saying Call of Duty 2 is the hardest Veteran? I'm just about done with it. This was LEAGUES easier than Call of Duty Classic (original COD) on veteran!! That game on veteran is outright broken! And i dont use that term lightly! No health regeneration. No health packs. Sparse checkpoints. If you havent played this game on Veteren yet, I dare you!
@MárcioSantos-z9p
2 ай бұрын
I even tried to complete this game on veteran mode once but I got stuck on that Silo mission. Very close to the end of the mission, in that part where you have to take down the mortar crews, I forgot to kill one of them and then when I was about to do it, one of the mortars hit me and I received a CheckPoint right when it happened. Bad luck.
@JForJackPlays
2 ай бұрын
Had exactly the same thing happen to me years ago. It's horrendous
@GhosTSpartaNFtW34
6 ай бұрын
I gave up after the tank missions on the British campaign
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
Can't blame you for that
@two-six5756
6 ай бұрын
Good video Jack i liked it.
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
glad to hear it! thanks for checking it out
@kylelincoln360
6 ай бұрын
Cod2 was very difficult
@bluebaronoz360
6 ай бұрын
Another great video mate, always enjoy when you upload a video! I went through this game again last year for achievements so know the pain you have gone through.
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
Thanks a lot, very much appreciated! Got loads more planned / on the go. Yeah it's a painful one for sure, good job finishing it!
@ryazs3292
6 ай бұрын
I just got all the achievements for this game a week ago lmfao
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
Ay good job getting them done!
@MediaBoy13
6 ай бұрын
Always love seeing a new upload from you 😄
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
Much appreciated, many more to come!
@renerivera9715
6 ай бұрын
Never heard of this game but looks good
@DecoyKamikaze
6 ай бұрын
Highlight of my day
@SouthPlaya
5 ай бұрын
Where the gh2 videos
@JForJackPlays
5 ай бұрын
I'm building up the mental strength to try pass Jordan + need to rope ollie in for the co op. I do have warriors of rock all recorded though.. just need to edit that!
@mr.m1garand254
6 ай бұрын
It took me a few years to get all of these achievements, because of the AI being so pinpoint lol I’d rather play waw than this again lol
@lesbianduck7862
6 ай бұрын
Call of duty 3 is harder mostly due to the cruel lack of checkpoints and bugs, it's truly miserable
@ben501st
6 ай бұрын
I had CoD 3 first and was confused when I found CoD 2 to be a more enjoyable game. Infinity Ward will always be the GOAT compared to Treyarch in my mind.
@lesbianduck7862
6 ай бұрын
@ben501st apparently they were rushed by Activision and only had 8 months to make Cod 3 which explains a lot, despite that I actually prefer it to 2 (unless it's on veteren)
@SuddenStrike_HQ
6 ай бұрын
@@lesbianduck7862 Call Of Duty 3 also added some important improvements, like cooking grenades, ranked play, vehicles in multiplayer, Rifle Grenades, Ammunition Boxes, Healing, S Mines, and the first real “call in” artillery as well as promotions giving more throwables. It also fixed balance from the 2nd For example melee is not a one hit kill and all weapons should be a 1 shot kill to the head.
@SuddenStrike_HQ
6 ай бұрын
Call of Duty 3 had some ridiculous mission at the end of the campaign which was ridiculous to pass because of the checkpoint.
@lesbianduck7862
6 ай бұрын
@Sudden_Strike_HQ_Kemo_Centeral oh yeah it improved on a lot from 2 but isn't as praised due to it being exclusive to console for some reason
@Devonskii
6 ай бұрын
I got all of a few months ago it was rough😂
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
Good job for getting it done! Very painful at times..
@enjoywinter3579
6 ай бұрын
Woop woop new vid!
@BananaCreator-k1m
8 күн бұрын
try maybe some h4x multiplayer gameplay? there is both zombies and regular gameplay.
@hot_fuzz4538
6 ай бұрын
What capture card do you use?
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
Just a £30 one from amazon, quite basic! Can find out more details if you need
@hot_fuzz4538
6 ай бұрын
@@JForJackPlays that would be so good dude I’ve been planning on doing content creation on my 360 of games like guitar hero and tons of other 360 games
@snajp5134
6 ай бұрын
CoD 2 Veteran wasn't actually that bad when compared to later titles or even CoD 1, but in that game it was mainly due to the HP system and lack of heals
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
I've heard COD1 is quite brutal yeah
@dinobajic301
6 ай бұрын
@@JForJackPlays Yeah just imagine that instead of regenerating health, you're stuck picking up medkits that are FAR too few.
@Codbraski
6 ай бұрын
vibeo gaem :)
@robwrone
6 ай бұрын
Now do CoD 1/CoD Classic. No health regen on veteran. It's a fucking nightmare. Highly recommend playing on PC so you can quicksave.
@mattster1429
6 ай бұрын
HE’S BACKKKKJJJJJJ
@user-weentchisk1
6 ай бұрын
yoo i jus finished this call of duty i agree, its the most annoying cod veteran i ever played
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
haha good job getting it done!
@thestonedalien8066
6 ай бұрын
Black ops 3 on realistic co op is cancer
@ImAustinTopham
6 ай бұрын
Notification squad. This game pissed me off so much that I sold it to Gamestop immediately after getting all the achievements lmao. Glad to see people still playing it. Hope you're well, homie!
@jimmiewoodsjw
6 ай бұрын
That’s some real hatred right there lmaoo
@LoftyCrofty
6 ай бұрын
I haven’t heard someone say notification squad in ages
@thegamehouse439
2 ай бұрын
Tô fazendo todas as conquistas no xbox 360
@kmossx
6 ай бұрын
oh man the last house on the tiger and the begining assault on matmata took me forever honestly the last mission was a breeze but im suprised such a hard game has a high cheev unlock rate.
@jameswright4236
6 ай бұрын
To be fair, it is nearly 20 years old so a lot of people will have had time to crack it.
@B3ttoLAD97
6 ай бұрын
Back in school i used the hatred of my german teacher to get me through this one 🤣
@DJCadon
6 ай бұрын
I’m glad someone out there has also felt the pain of this veteran campaign
@levvis7995
6 ай бұрын
27 missions!? Back when cod devs actually cared about their fans
@ZenaphobeZerj
6 ай бұрын
You should also try for COD classic! That was super difficult and honestly it felt harder than COD 2 to me. Maybe you’ll find it easier! Honestly I worked my way through all COD campaigns on Veteran, and I guess it’s a good thing I don’t remember this one being super hard. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t, probably means I blocked it out.
@suddsy_gaming
6 ай бұрын
Absolutely he should!
@Epic-1224
6 ай бұрын
Try COD 1 united offensive. That's even more insane.
@PunishedSpindle300
6 ай бұрын
bedtime video couldn't have come more clutch. Thanks!
@Hamentsios10
6 ай бұрын
0:30 it's fun to me. Sure there are two or three insanely nerve breaking moments like in all games on veteran. Maybe if you played on PC with mouse and keyboard it would be much better. It's not helping you when you handicap yourself by playing an fps game on veteran with a controller. joysticks are objectively slowing you down on aiming in games. Mouse is laser accurate and rapidly fast on aiming and turning around.
@BrandonBRich
6 ай бұрын
I would argue COD2 being harder than WAW for the fact that that the engine for WAW is better and COD2 is made difficult because of hardware limitations and downright unfair scenarios. Regardless I’m glad you covered such an underrated gem and I would consider both insane either way
@PlanetNateGaming
6 ай бұрын
I wouldn't say COD2 is the hardest as the checkpoints aren't as sparse as some other enteries, my ranking of Veteran difficulty in the COD games i've played goes like this: World At War COD2 MW1 (2007) Black Ops COD3 Black Ops 2 (still need to finish it but if i remember correctly you only need to finish 8 missions to get an ending)
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
Need to try cod3, and black ops 2! I agree that the checkpoints (for the most part in 2 aren't too bad)
@o_mighty_thunder
6 ай бұрын
This is the true difficulty list. Special Note, Black Ops 2 on Veteran is like playing any CoD on the Recruit setting. The AI is awful and the missions are extremely short, FEAR-style fire fights. After a handful of battles, the mission ends and the entire game is like this. My first time trying it, I beat BlOps 2 on Veteran with less than ten deaths and a huge pit of disappointment. I'd say CoD2 and WAW share the same level of difficulty, but otherwise I can see why you put WAW above 2. Totally agree.
@AlAl-b5j
6 ай бұрын
13:15 That's not D-Day. It's shortly before. The allies had to take out artillery and anti-aircraft so the boats and planes wouldn't be shot during actual D Day.
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
oh that makes sense, thanks! didn't know that
@ANVILD3VIL
6 ай бұрын
Thats actually D-Day....the landings at Pointe Du Hoc happened on June 6th...so D-Day
@tflacks5884
22 күн бұрын
Beat this game today in veteran. Never again. It took me 4 agonizing days, 3 of which i wanted to throw my controller at the wall. The silo (dday), and the tiger (battle for caen) remains some of the worst cod missions i have ever suffered through and ive played most mainstream cods on their highest difficulty. Og cods games were built differently I swear. The upstairs house clearing were some of the worst trigger spawn bs i have ever experienced. The amount of times ive died from getting rushed by 3+ guys running down the stairs after tossing 4+ grenades upstairs so i wouldnt get thanos snapped must be in the 100s honestly. It rivals at points some of the worst of cod waw veteran in how much sheer rage i have felt. I feel your pain and understand immensely the amount of suffering you went through 😔. I actually had a pretty chill time with completing hill 400 and crossing the rhine, but also i might have been severely traumatised by the previous two missions so everything felt easier in comparison haha. I've also heard cod classic/ united offensive is the most punishing veteran cod campaign due to no regen health, no healthpacks and no checkpoints (depending on how low your health is at times). I havent played it myself but if you're up for more pain then that sounds like a horrible challenge lol.
@exotichoundoom5939
6 ай бұрын
Honestly. This game was the worst ever. All the side are so so frustrating. I stream this for some friends and was playing a drinking game. Shot everytime i died. PS dont because i and friends were blasted.
@LoftyCrofty
6 ай бұрын
I must say sorry to God for the stuff that I said when I was on the journey to get all the achievements. Worst thing happened is on the last checkpoint of the game I got stuck in a barley escapable kill loop.
@LostShipMate
Ай бұрын
That godforsaken bunker at the begging of the video gave me nightmares when I was a kid trying to get this achievement.
@ryanmccarthy7381
6 ай бұрын
Phenomenal campaign. In my top 5 COD campaigns to this day. Without a doubt, CoD2 is the most underrated CoD in the franchise.
@KAR4MB1T
6 ай бұрын
This was single handedly one of the most difficult things I have ever done, well worth the gamescore though
@N00BPUN1SH3R
4 ай бұрын
haven't played this one but Call of Duty 3's veteran campaign was sheer pain, give that one a go!
@JForJackPlays
4 ай бұрын
I've heard! Definitely plan on it sometime soon
@Kleicomolo
6 ай бұрын
I remember the houses the most. Always a tight staircase, again and again, with multiple angles for enemies to shoot you, and usually your checkpoint was five minutes ago. It's been almost twenty years ago and I will never forget the hell of being point man for every house clear.
@ryanmccarthy7381
6 ай бұрын
Keep up the great work. Your channel is a new favorite of mine, no boogaloo.
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
Appreciate that a lot, thank you! and thanks for watching. Got many many more planned for sure
@ben501st
6 ай бұрын
The Tunisia ambush was absolutely brutal along with the D-Day missions. Not being able to run was a huge handicap. LMGs are your friend. The Bren is especially OP since you can slow fire accurately without ADS while prone.
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
I definitely didn't make the most of the different weapons!
@InternetReview
6 ай бұрын
I got this game in 2005 and I completed every mission on all difficulties except the last one on veteran… tried it many times but it wasn’t until 2009 I finally got through it. Was so satisfying
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
Good job for getting it done! I've had some games like that.. Prototype took me about 14 years to build up the strength to 100%
Lots have said 3! Definitely need to give that a go soon
@fuzzylarge
2 ай бұрын
cod2 is my favorite game of all time, D-Day on Vereran really sucks though.
@Pigeuns
6 ай бұрын
One of my tradtions with every new CoD i got was to beat the campaign before i played multiplayer. Im also an achievement hunter with just under 70,000 gamerscore..I beat CoD 3, CoD 4, WaW, BO1, MW2, BO2, AND MW3 ON VETERAN. And I will say, out of all the CoDs i beat, COD2 WAS BY FAR THE HARDEST VETERAN campaign i ever friggin played. I got it after days and days of grinding but holy tits i almost smashed my TV trying to beat COD2 Veteran.
@ludekz.773
6 ай бұрын
I finished this game like million times on Veteran, back when it came out, on PC. Crazy how good I was when i was a teenager :D I wouldnt put my self throught this hell ever again :DD That Tunisia ambush in alley was complete nonsence :D
@w0lfr0gue53
6 ай бұрын
I got 100% about 6 years ago. It wasn’t too bad. I took a break one the last British mission, but came back and it was easy
@wes2k3b10
6 ай бұрын
Will you play cod3 I don’t think it’s particularly hard I just have fond memories of it
@gencpapa
6 ай бұрын
if u want to test your skill try call of duty finest hour on veteran
@StoneGreninja
6 ай бұрын
One of a couple X360 games I got all achievements for. Get shot twice = fail.
@xXSlyfoxMinionXx
6 ай бұрын
Still the best CoD ever made
@RiceWithRamen
6 ай бұрын
One thing about WW2 that always gets me is how DDay was originally gonna be worse if Hitler didn't fall for the distraction. DDay was brutal enough, just imagine if Hitler didn't move any forces, the slaughter would've been even unimaginable.
@MrJrv1993
6 ай бұрын
If the tank divisions had been in Normandy and moved on the invasion forces immediately, there’s a good chance that they may have been destroyed faster. The Germans knew that bringing armor within easy range of naval gunfire was a bad idea after Gela in Italy.
@captainshiner42
6 ай бұрын
Never got a chance to play this one. But, I do have the Platinum trophies for World at War, COD1, and Modern Warfare Remastered. I've been to itching to play this for years since they never released a Playstation version. Now, I have a PC, so I need to hurry up and get this bad boy.
@ichotw5766
6 ай бұрын
Playing this first time on veteran about 15 years ago made me understand how much grenades could be useful. When you're stuck - use smoke grenade and try to get away. When you need to clear out rooms and buildings - throw few grenades in and clear it out. Beautiful game.
@SHAKES19
6 ай бұрын
I would like to see you play Call of Duty 3 on veteran.
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
Lots of people have mentioned cod3, I think it needs to be done!!
@jonathandemacedo158
6 ай бұрын
Hill 400 was the only level I never beat. Just couldn’t do it. This is such a nostalgia hit.
@SpartanSchlick
6 ай бұрын
CoD2 Veteran Achievement was one of my proudest back in the day.
@PlatinumROB_91
6 ай бұрын
Congrats on getting this done! Looked like a pain in some sections. I also sent you an email last month regarding a discord server. Not sure if you saw it, or if you would be interested? But just wanted to make sure either way. Keep up the good work
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
thanks a lot! yeah was painful but glad to tick it off. i'm not sure i saw that actually.. let me check, thanks again!
@PlatinumROB_91
6 ай бұрын
@@JForJackPlays No worries. It would have been titled "platinum youtuber discord server, and was sent on Feb 3. If not there, I can send again if you want
@MrUncensoredGamer
6 ай бұрын
If you want a true trifecta of pain, do cod classic on veteran next
@fdkrill8049
6 ай бұрын
i have not finshed waw on vet but i finshed cod2 on vet
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
Where are you up to in WAW?
@fdkrill8049
6 ай бұрын
i was up where the japs destroy the sherman tank in front of u when u r riding on one @@JForJackPlays
@MMA-mh9uv
6 ай бұрын
cool game, but hard on Veteran for sure
@gordonfreemen1920
6 ай бұрын
Oh Boy! I am viewer number 5,500
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
thank you viewer 5500!
@Palanor
6 ай бұрын
Congratulations :) I got these achievements in may last year aswell... but I had no idea that smoke grenades actually were useful until hearing about it in this video... haha. Yeah, it was a struggle.
@stephenclark5198
5 ай бұрын
Loving the content and variety of videos. Love achievement hunting myself but always struggle with multiplayer games
@JForJackPlays
5 ай бұрын
Ah much appreciated sir! Glad you enjoy them. Got lots more planned that's for sure. And yeah I'm not a fan of multiplayer achievements
@theredtoaster8186
6 ай бұрын
I just play all the cods again this past year or 2 and got them all in n veteran. By far, black ops 3 and cod 3 were the hardest
@JForJackPlays
6 ай бұрын
have never played either of those!! will tackle them at some point (or try to)
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