I love that the cheater was wearing a "Better Call Saul" t-shirt.
@gabikimosabi5127
3 жыл бұрын
Alleged cheater*
@danielmichniowski1671
Жыл бұрын
"Your Honor, my client was simply doing what his character would've done"
@williamthomas4125
2 ай бұрын
It's all good man.
@oerthling
2 жыл бұрын
"Trust is given, distrust is earned" - well said. Exactly my approach too. It's a game with friends - I don't want to police them.
@1217BC
3 жыл бұрын
I love the character work in this one, Seth. Mike acting sketchy felt very personal to that character, and very different from how Todd would act suspicious. Really good work man!
@brianyoung3324
3 жыл бұрын
Seconded! The gang is my favorite part of the channel. Their "out of character" moments add a lot, too. Like Todd getting tired of being bad and Mike being a bro and stepping in. Makes the whole thing feel really relaxed.
@TheSmart-CasualGamer
3 жыл бұрын
Imagine if you went to heaven and St Peter stopped you at the gates and said "You didn't make that saving throw in Secret of Bone Hill. No entry. Back to Earth with you."
@hermes667
Жыл бұрын
Only to earth? Remeber that "A Paladin in Hell" Picture from 2nd edition AD&D Players Handbook? Well, I am pretty sure that guy lied on his saving throw as well...
@TheSmart-CasualGamer
Жыл бұрын
@@hermes667 I feel like as Seth has repented so much he wouldn't go straight to The Nine Hells. Maybe that Paladin was simultaneously a Cheater and a Rules Lawyer?
@PaladinDusty
3 жыл бұрын
The way you did that dissolve, it was like Mike died and I got very sad for a moment.
@tafua_a
3 жыл бұрын
Change da world. My final message. Goodb ye.
@hqueso
3 жыл бұрын
I had to change some of my gaming habits when I realized some people were suspecting me of cheating. I had many favorite dice sets, and some were of a mottled or marbled color pattern. I'd been using them for several editions and had a sentimental attachment to them. But that was when my eyes were younger. As I approached ty years of age, it got where I was having trouble reading the number against the die color, and started to innocently pick up my d20 after rolling if it rolled too far from me, just to verify the rolled number. I noticed people near me started looking real fast to see what I rolled before I picked the die up. That's when it hit me- they aren't sure I'm doing this on the up and up. I immediately retired those dice and now only use dice I can clearly read from several feet away, in case one rolls farther than I expect. I never thought it looked suspicious, as I had no intend to do anything wrong. This was a very honest group, and no one in it cheats, so correcting that impression as important to our mutual trust. In a similar incident, I had been sitting next to the DM , and I would often look to him in anticipation for his reaction in tense moments. I assured him I wasn't peeking behind his screen. He responded that I shouldn't worry, that he understood how my old-man glasses worked and what angle I'd have to hold my head to even see his dice and notes at that distance. I'm old, but at least I'm honest, I guess.
@WaveShock007
3 жыл бұрын
Todd is a good player?! *Happy Player noises!*
@fex144
3 жыл бұрын
I had to walk away from my favorite group because of a player (my GM was infatuated with) - He snatches up dice for a "convenient" roll of 19 (I saw it was 3, once) - He 'forgets' his spell limits - He overrides others "no don't do that, do this" ... oh okay - He's a severe spotlight hog - He's walked out on a session in a huff when he discovered he wasn't the center of attention - He invented über-damage 'bonus-action' concentration spells (That the GM allowed, sigh) - Oh, and he is 40 years old.
@the0amazing0joe
Жыл бұрын
I had my character sheets on a clipboard and had the habit of rolling on the clipboard as well since the table was too soft covered in cloth and it cocked the dice sometimes. Really hard to stop that, but I tried because I realized how suss my rolls looked when i rolled on the 2nd page because that's the ability I was reading, and the first page paper was just being held up in my hand covering it completely. What made me buy a dice tray eventually.
@kev_whatev
3 жыл бұрын
The thought of “cheating” at collaborative storytelling has always seemed super weird to me. Like, there’s no opponent and nothing at stake. What are you even doing?
@AFnord
3 жыл бұрын
I think it's for many a way to shine. I killed landed the killing blow on the great dragon, I get the glory!
@oz_jones
Жыл бұрын
@@AFnord Only way to win at dnd is to strike your DM with a warhammer. I think.
@JohnSmith-qq7fm
3 жыл бұрын
I check my player's sheets more to double check my own information than theirs. It's a very real possibility that I might have missed something
@Tosnoob
3 жыл бұрын
That's what I like about Foundry/Roll20: everybody can see a player's roll, but a DM can still roll privately to fudge if need be.
@kevintheradioguy131
3 жыл бұрын
Oh, I had a player that was cheating in a completely new for me way. We were playing at a large table, and each time someone rolled in the centre, they had to stand up and lean over to take a look, which wasn't always comfortable. This guy would roll in the middle, and then reach over for the die to drag it closer instead of standing up (understandable, we're not doing squats after all), but if he noticed the result was bad, he'd turn the die to another side in hopes it would be a better result. Sometimes it was, sometimes it wasn't. Everyone who say near him saw it, but never could catch him in act, as it was extremely hard to do. The most suspicious thing was when I brought a tray for rolls, and asked to use it (the table was also quite slippery, and the dice often fell on the floor, stalling the game until the player would find their die), he first started getting worse results, and after that decided to leave the game. Asked to join another one recently, which I allowed, but due to the virus we had to switch to online platforms. After he learned that he is not allowed to private rolls in that group, he decided not to come any more. This in turn opened up a spot, and I met a really amazing new player - who unfortunately has some very bad luck with his rolls - so all's good.
@billthecanuck
3 жыл бұрын
i had a weird encounter with a "cheater" back in the first game i DM'd when i frst started playing a few years ago. My table was 3 friends + 1 random guy from a local D&D facebook group. I wanted 4 players so i asked on the group and he was the one to join. I started the adventure at level 3 and my first flag is he showed up and said "no sorry my character is level 4 so ill be level 4.".... i didnt want to start off fighting with him so i just said sure and bumped the other 3 characters up to 4. Which kind of skewed the encounters i had planned that session but i rolled with it. THEN as we started playing and in the first combat i went to attack him he said "you have to attack me at disadvantage, i have a cloak of displacement".... at that point i told him i hadn't given him any items so no, you don't have a cloak of displacement he got all uppity at me saying his character was an AL character and i couldn't make him give up items he earned in adventure league. At that time i had zero idea what AL was even, and i hadn't advertised my game as being AL(it was a homebrew setting ffs..) The session devolved the last 30 minutes into him and I arguing and i told him he wasn't welcome at the table. He never came back and i've never heard or seen him again (About a year later started playing adventure league a lot, and never ran into him)... a really weird experience. Not sure if you would lump that as cheating but bringing a character with items/levels from other campaigns is suspect, especially without ok'ing it with the DM.
@bigblue344
3 жыл бұрын
Not cheating but he was in the wrong. Probably thought all D&D was adventure league stuff like some sort of MMO video game.
@pyra4eva
3 жыл бұрын
It almost sounds like a bully player more than just straight cheating. He probably thought that he could badger you into agreeing with him and having it where basically he ran the game using you as a puppet/shield. The "I just suggested it but the DM made the call" trick. I think you did the right thing. It might not have felt great but you stood up for yourself and the group as a whole. I've had some players try that but the key is to put up boundaries right away. I've had people say "well, I built this character for level 5 instead of 4" and I tell them straight up that they knew everyone started at level 4 so they better redo the character and this time I'll be sure to help them from scratch. They would come at me but I would tell them straight that everyone at the table agreed to the same thing and they can't change things all by themselves. I would bluntly tell them that if I changed this one thing for them, then to make sure I'm not playing favorites, I'd have to change something for everyone and they might not like the changes the other characters implement. Fair is fair especially when someone wants an edge. I've told people that my game doesn't overlap with any other game so other games don't have any sway on my game. Players can bring up suggestions and have calm discussions but I don't like bullies so I make it a point to put my foot down with behavior like that. My belief is this a group of friends playing a game and if I'm allowing you in, I want us to be friends and friends don't bully and cheat each other. It helps make it where the other players understand that this is their game too and when I say "my game" as a DM, they understand that I'm the figurehead that they can trust to work in their best interest because I'm their friend. I don't mind being the bad guy that tells a person that they have to leave to make sure my group of friends can have fun. Good on you and I hope you don't have to deal with any of that again.
@workyoutube7798
3 жыл бұрын
@@pyra4eva OMG ^ This ^ This is worse than a cheater to me. I mean, at least a cheater is still playing the "same game" as everyone else. A bully wants to make it their game, and no one else's. Or when a player just 180's their character and starts doing completely destructive, counter-intuitive crap to your PCs and/or game (another form of PC Bully IMO)? I HATE that...Luckily, not that many encounters with it so far (15+ years, baby!)
@herrabanani
3 жыл бұрын
May not be cheating per say but definitely not following the rules. I'd say cheating is to secretly not follow the rules
@Minodrec
3 жыл бұрын
@@pyra4eva "Oh don't worry about your mistake. Here take this pregen bard. You can even keep him if you don't want to start with a fresh level 4 next session.". I know it's passive agressive but damn...
@mainmarco123
Жыл бұрын
When I got a concussion years ago I suffered from some memory issues and got distracted/light headed easy for a few months. During that time I'd often forget to check off a spell I used or note using arrows/other resources. In one game I was in which was sort of a hop in/hop out at a shop, a new guy showed up and called me a cheater for noticing I didn't mark off a spell one time and tried to get me kicked since he didn't play with cheaters. Totally valid, no one likes cheaters, luckily the DM and another player who I'd play with at this table often stood up for me and said what was going on. The guy apologized profusely and then offered to help me keep track so the DM could focus on the game. He was a good guy and we still do occasional one shots online from time to time. So the section on book keeping really clicked close to home since for a while I had trouble with it. It's easy in a combat to lose track of resources since you're gonna check off a spell only to hear the DM attacking and you gotta focus on that.
@mouthyschannel2474
3 жыл бұрын
The character personalities, wow, I’d love to be in one of your games 💚
@familyfriendlydd5861
3 жыл бұрын
Great stuff! I’ve had to deal with rule breakers as a teacher. I’m pretty sure D&D nerds cheat more in club than they do at school. Your channel is one of the greatest inspirations to start my own channel and to write my own ruleset and home-brew world.
@Kittykattarina
3 жыл бұрын
My brother found our xmas gifs one year and tried to get me to look st them with him. I refused. I wanted to be surprised xmas morning and the build up is part of the fun. Dont look up game moduals, you're ruining the game for yourself!
@salamshalom
3 жыл бұрын
When I was 7, my mom took me shopping to pick all my presents for 🎄. I picked everything I wanted. It was the best set of gifts in that no one was guessing what I liked. I knew what I wanted and picked it! Despite that, the lack of surprise made it the worst gift experience for me. I learned the value of surprise that year and never looked back.
@iDreaMzXo
3 жыл бұрын
I'm still shocked to see you at under 100k subs, seth. You give great reviews and advice. You helped me get to one year of DMing with a crew. I appreciate you, you deserve more subs! Drew
@QueerChangling
3 жыл бұрын
I feel called out as someone who plays everything on easy. I never cheer or even fudge as a dm, I just play video games for the rp over the challenge. I want my actions to have consequences. And in most games things are too rail roady to incentivise a more difficult challenge rating. Love the video though! Keep it up you rock my man! Also not saying people can’t enjoy the challenge just not me
@girlbuu9403
3 жыл бұрын
>I feel called out as someone who plays everything on easy. Oh here's another pansy who wants regenerating health and everything handed to them in immersion breaking fashion just so they don't have to think or develop ski- >I just play video games for the rp over the challenge ... >I want my actions to have consequences. And in most games things are too rail roady BROTHER. JOIN ME. LET US SMITE THE HERETICS TOGETHER.
@russellchamp
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for another great video, Seth! Playing high-level Pathfinder characters can be very COMPLICATED(tm) and I've often made clerical errors (often around if bonuses stack, abilities apply, feats are valid, edge cases are edged, or how effects interact) so I would appreciate more GM and player auditing of my own character sheets!
@ryangeoghagan3076
3 жыл бұрын
I remember one time I was playing with someone who used a dice rolling app. He got lucky a lot. When we had him switch to dice he was still getting good rolls. Turns out he was just lucky.
@sorignhasword3651
3 жыл бұрын
You really helped me realize how stressful it is to play with cheaters, I've resolved myself to confront the players in my group who foster an environment where they feel that cheating is acceptable
@Labroidas
3 жыл бұрын
The problem with cheating really is that it destroys verisimilitude for everybody, but first and foremost for the cheater himself. I mean, the game is literally about telling a story. It's fun because everybody at the table is discovering what happens. But if somebody cheats, everybody feels like what happened is a lie, and not what actually happened, so we will never know the true end of the story. I think that's also the reason why people don't like it if the DM fudges rolls.
@dorman111
3 жыл бұрын
Just wanna say thank you for all of your insights. I can honestly say I'm a better DM because of them. Thanks again for all your efforts.
@The1Ryu
3 жыл бұрын
I had a player who compulsively lied about his dice rolls and the results. He did all the classic dice tricks mentioned here. He even told me that he just lied about his bonuses, in creasing them by 1 because he felt better about missing so long as it wasn't by one point. But that was the thing, he confessed this to me freely because he couldn't help himself. Maybe that was just an excuse for him being a weak person, though his bookkeeping was impeccable; dice rolling was the only aspect I suspected that he cheated. He still plays with the group, but the other players roll on his behalf. You could certainly argue that's not the best solution adding to the other player workloads, but it worked for him and us.
@johnjacobjingleheimerschmi9997
3 жыл бұрын
I also heard about Mike and that poor ostrich. Allegedly...
@hawkthetraveler6344
3 жыл бұрын
That T-shirt is generational. Love it !
@ArcNeoMasato
3 жыл бұрын
Straight up, I'm actually VERY dyslexic, so any time I join a new group, I flat tell everyone to always feel free to double check my work, cause I'm just error prone, cause it matters that people don't think I'm cheating at the game. Heck, I'll even let players roll for monster attacks sometimes while I'm DMing for that very reason, which has lead to some funny nights where everyone wants the player having bad luck that night to roll the monsters big attack, only to have them nat20 on that ONE roll. lol
@AGrumpyPanda
3 жыл бұрын
I'm not a superstitious man, but the dice know. The dice always know.
@marcar9marcar972
3 жыл бұрын
That is totally fair
@Tony-dh7mz
3 жыл бұрын
@@AGrumpyPanda I have had players have such bad dice rolls that they took their traitor betraying dice out on to the drive, and hit them with a hammer, Of course, that's extreme cases...
@aaronstreitenberger6012
3 жыл бұрын
"They'll just print off the module" is such a paranoid response. I play in both an in person group and an online group. Trying to get them to even look up a new system is worse than pulling teeth. In my experience, most players won't go beyond looking up things for their character (even that isn't as common as you'd think). I would relish a player who actually went out of their way to look into the game we're playing.
@jamesverhoff1899
3 жыл бұрын
One of the folks I game with always reads the module, cover to cover, either before playing or between the first and second session. I don't think she's ever cheated, though. She does it as part of her method for determining the best way to play in that setting. I think part of the issue is goals. Her goal is to make an interesting story--survival is entirely optional. She has zero incentive to use her knowledge to help the group "win", and in fact I suspect she's sometimes intentionally made the game harder (nothing nephareous, just "This character would be sub-optimal, so let's play it!" type stuff). It makes for a really interesting gaming session, with all kinds of plot hooks and character-driven events and occasionally fleeing for our lives as a plan goes sideways.
@robinrichardson5243
3 жыл бұрын
Protip from being a teacher: don't explain anti-cheating measures as "preventing folks from cheating" but "helping to establish and corroborate their honesty beyond a shadow of a doubt".
@Belzughast
3 жыл бұрын
Ah, the high rollers. After seeing four nat20 rolls one after another nothing will suprise me and no the dice weren't weighted.
@twilightgardenspresentatio6384
3 жыл бұрын
When I find the people I’m playing with are dishonest, I feel better just writing so I kinda trail off til I find a few players for a new story.
@CainLatrani
3 ай бұрын
My current group has a player whose rolls are always awesome (and his dice are virtually unreadable due to how fancy they are), and a guy whose character somehow has a little more XP than the rest of us to spend. (BESM game). The DM is aware of it, and since we're the only three players, confronting them would basically end the group. He's also noticed how my characters always end up being the weakest or least capable characters, due to being honest about my XP spending and dice rolls, so he does tend to reward my character with little perks, and role play moments. While their actions do often limit my enjoyment of the game, and cause me a bit of stress, I've been a table top RPG player for over 40 years, and would hate to lose the only group I've found in years. It's a pain for me and the DM both, and one we have talked about a lot, but they are unlikely to change, as he has called them out on their behavior several times over the years, and it soon reverts back. Doing so again at this point would probably end the group, as they were extremely defensive last time he did. Is it ideal? No. Is it still better than not having a group at all? Barely a yes. We're both always on the lookout for potential new players to bring in to help balance out the dynamic, though. Small rural town makes that hard,sadly.
@AuntieHauntieGames
3 жыл бұрын
My first action when I suspect cheating is to discuss it with the player in private some time outside game. I usually want to make sure that the cheating isn't happening because of some deficit in their out-of-game life: maybe their job or a relationship or family is stressing them out, and they cheat because they want some sense of control. Stuff like that. The game is important but I only ever play with friends so I want to prioritize my friends and check-in first to make sure my friends are okay.
@yomammabe1
3 жыл бұрын
In my opinion, the difference in this case would be whether the alleged cheater ever tried to improve his play to correct the ‘mistakes’
@majorpain8569
3 жыл бұрын
You should do an episode on Munchkins. Almost as bad as cheaters :D. I had one player a Half-Bugbear Warpriest. At level 7 he did 30-40 damage per hit. He had a mental breakdown the one time he was told he couldn’t do something. Draw his weapon, half move, and attack. 1st edition d&d
@sgt-slag
3 жыл бұрын
Lived it, learned it the hard way. My current group of players I trust. Had a few bad apple players, over the past 40 years. The relief when they left the group, was palpable. Cheaters are like an infection, impacting everyone else in the game. They do require a careful approach to deal with them, but as you said, once gone, the group, and the game sessions, improve, dramatically! Lack of trust is a disease in an RPG group. If you cannot trust your fellow players, why would your PC not deal with them, one way, or another? That breaks my suspension of disbelief. It just sucks diesel exhaust, IMO. Cheers!
@michaelpaul7040
2 жыл бұрын
Full disclosure: I was once so turned off and disgusted by the way a GM ran a module on a zoom channel that I LOOKED UP the module online, during the game, to see where he arbitrarily ignored fundamental parts of the module's rules. I hated the experience, and never played with him again.
@tinglestingles
3 жыл бұрын
There's ALWAYS one Mike in all aspects of life.
@txbluesguy
3 жыл бұрын
Good video. There was a player that I thought was cheating at his dice rolls. In fact, another player did complain about the 'cheater'. So I talked with the player and asked him to sit closer to me during sessions so I could see his dice rolls. He seemed really lucky and I didn't see any cheating. I am GMing a different group now and the same player is in the group. We are now playing using a VTT so it isn't possible to cheat at the dice rolls. This player is just crazy lucky.
@lisaeichler2101
3 жыл бұрын
We used to play Talislanta which only uses a d20 - so everyone got a d20 the size of a golf ball and rolled it in the middle of the table. Honestly - though not inclined to cheating, after a day without successful rolls, one does get an itch to fudge sometimes. Having the monster die rolled for all to see takes that temptation away and I prefer it even for myself.
@the_sixxness
2 жыл бұрын
Just got done writing up my notes on the first act of the A L I E N Chariot of the Gods module. It took 4 hours (Im a perfectionist.) If any of my players cheated, got caught and then said "it's only a game" they wouldn't be playing with me anymore. Learning how to DM A L I E N without ever playing a TTRPG was difficult enough. I don't need cheating jacking up all the hard work I am doing.
@originaluddite
3 жыл бұрын
In my last game as GM there was trust but, even if there had not been, dodgy record keeping would have been difficult. My players all expected me to keep their character sheets because I was the least likely person to misplace them. :)
@pedronovaes5993
3 жыл бұрын
This video gave me an idea for a game where everyone is trying to cheat, and creates a feeling of paranoia. Maybe the party is made of criminals planning a big heist, and they are afraid one of them is a cop undercover or something like that.
@skruffytiger2002
3 жыл бұрын
I feel like you have either way too much fun, or a horrible time, reenacting the games with the other Seths. :D
@wolfyblackknight8321
Жыл бұрын
as someone who is a power gamer and constantly curious I can understand wanting to read modules for ideas and tips for world building as an aspiring gm one day. but I'd also be the first to admit to reading a module if I remembered it and openly tell the group I'm not going to take the lead or recommend anything unless explicitly asked. aside from very common boiler plate "we should get a few more healing potions you can't go wrong with more potions" "did we restock our ammo?" "I'm buying more rope you can never have to much rope" or maybe some 5 second foreshadowing of "you know this would be the perfect spot to ambush people walking in" if I knew an ambush was in the module in an enemy base or something and if nothing happened I'd even say in character "you know that was a perfect place for the someone or something to set up an ambush total missed opptunity for them to not set up an ambush here you got cover nice lines of sight why not use it? nothing that would be unreasonable in character. and if I cast a spell that didn't have the range I thought it did and would fail I'm staying with it in character I apparently forgot the range of the spell and flubbed my move and wasted my turn. I might be a curious power gamer but I'm not going to try and ruin the game for everyone else if I can help it. I might even take a page from the all guardsmen party and go full twitch, shooting out several theories of varying sanity or possibility to bury the lead on what might be the right one if I even say the right one at all.
@Tomyironmane
3 жыл бұрын
Auditing the character sheets also lets you kinda hopefully gauge what kinds of holes exist in a group, and to not be a jerk and give them a problem they can't handle... As for reading the adventure modules, I have read a lot of them. But I pretty much assume that whatever the heck the module says isn't *necessarily* what the GM is gonna roll with, and that any immediate "tactical intelligence" gleaned from a module is pretty much worthless... whereas figuring out how to gather intelligence in-character and coping with various scenarios is *far* more valuable... it's a case where you don't say "ok, I read the book and there's five orks in that room" you say "ok, I read a bunch of modules, and there is a new room ahead, how can we determine what we're walking into, and what are good ways to cope with it?" ... but that's mostly because I have experience with GMs ad-libbing, not to "catch out" the players, but because they like to ad-lib, and play enemies as being somewhat tactically proficient, or not living and dying within the confines of a 10' x 10' room guarding a chest.
@boris2342
3 жыл бұрын
Some players will find more enjoyment in spoiling a game than in playing it, and this ruins the fun for the rest of the participants, so it must be prevented. Those who enjoy being loud and argumentative, those who pout or act in a childish manner when things go against them, those who use the books as a defense when you rule them out of line should be excluded from the campaign. Simply put, ask them to leave, or do not invite them to participate again. Gary Gygax 1st ed DM Guide page 110
@mathsalot8099
3 жыл бұрын
To me, reading the module in advance ruins the experience. It's like flipping ahead and reading the last chapter of a novel you are enjoying. I know some people like to do that, but not me. That old adage, "when you cheat, the person you're really cheating is yourself."
@sergentharker7182
3 жыл бұрын
I remember a player I used to play d&d with who had these terrible dice that were like a celestial white with gold numbers on them, borderline unreadable from more than 4 feet away, and he always seemed to snatch his dice up really quickly, and he always seemed to pull off that perfect critical hit or passing a save at just the right time, never caught him cheating but always suspected him of it
@Turovale
3 жыл бұрын
I have a couple friends in my “main” but also migratory group. One of my best friends in the world is garbage at book keeping and I will catch him fudging items and things if I try. The usual DM however, doesn’t usually care that much and it never impacts the game much. But when I DM, he knows I can, will and have caught him doing it, so he never does. He used to but I keep too good of notes for him to get away with it. Another friend I have to double check his spells often, but that’s more so because he’s slightly dyslexic and has played 3 editions of the same game.
@OgamiItto70
3 жыл бұрын
Usually it's Jack, but this time it was Tribal Bowling Shirt/Goatee Guy (Todd?) that had me cracking up. Why have (at present) 10 viewers disliked this video? Cheaters, probably. 'Cause this was a great video. Having played with groups that had killer GM's (or at least GM's who were uninterested in all the emotional investment you'd made in your PC) when first starting out in RPG'ing, my fellow players wouldn't let me (or anyone else) get away with making any bookkeeping mistakes, let alone intentionally cheat. There _was_ one new system we tried and found out later that we (including the GM) had misinterpreted the rules in our PC's favor, but that ended up not being the advantage you might think since, politically, it just made us bigger targets. Like the old Japanese proverb says (in paraphrase), "It's the nail that stands the tallest that gets hammered the hardest." I never really saw the point of cheating in an RPG. I wonder if a one-on-one, heart-to-heart talk with "Mike" away from the other players would have done any good. You know, look him in the eye and say something like, "I've come to the conclusion that you're fudging things. Don't do that. It's unnecessary. Don't worry about the game being a competition between the players and me--it's not. The point of the game is not to win, but to improvise an interesting story about some people who embark on an adventure. Fudging the numbers and limitations saps the importance of the group's victories and attenuates their peril and flattens out the entertainment value of the game overall. Cheating kills the drama and conflict, and _they_ are the reason we're here, not to "win" a competition or be flawless supermen who always prevail." Be calm, reasonable, maybe even friendly, but firm. "Cheating's not allowed because of the reasons just given. No hard feelings, straighten up and fly right and all is forgiven and we'll never bring this up again. You are (or have the potential to be) a great RPG player and I hope you can reach that potential--I know you have it in you, so let's get on to getting _there_ instead of continuing down this road to nowhere. If you need any help getting your character sorted, I'm glad to give it. See you next week." Then wait and see if it works. If it does, great! You've got a player who probably won't make that mistake again. If not, well, adios, "Mike." It was real and it was fun, but...
@inappropriateperson6947
3 жыл бұрын
Good post. I wish it were that easy. You can't convince a player that your type of fun is better then their type of fun any more then convincing them that the food they hate actually tastes good. Sure the player may "mature", but that has limits.
@OgamiItto70
3 жыл бұрын
@@inappropriateperson6947 Then you gave them their chance and "Adios, 'Mike.'" Being a GM is a little like being a general or the director of a film. You try to retain your people and get them trained up to act appropriately for the job at hand, but if they can't, you have to "fire" them. It's one of the less-pleasant but crucial facets of leadership. Otherwise morale suffers, which can wipe out the whole endeavor.
@stargateproductions
8 ай бұрын
Accidents can happen, I misunderstood pact slots once. I realized my mistake and apologized to the table. That will happen, if its repeated, you have a cheater. Edit: Spelling
@oz_jones
Ай бұрын
Sure. This assumes that the "misunderstandings" happen often.
@breaksthemind2881
3 жыл бұрын
I am a storyteller for Werewolf the apocalypse. Which runs off of a d10 system. In my past experience i had a player that claimed one day that they had never botched on any challenge roll. A botch in werewolf the apocalypse is like getting a one in d&d. This alarmed me because all of us had botched at some point. So i had the player that sat closest to them look at there rolls as they made them. We soon came to the conclusion that this person could not tell the difference between a 6 & a 9 on the d10. So I made the individual sit next to me during the game so i could check there rolls. Now this same person is running d&d games for me & a group. The person keeps there rolls behind the screen so i wonder if they still have that problem.
@Borggablöff
3 жыл бұрын
Very subtle placement of your book! Should I buy the book on the basis that I enjoy your youtube videos?
@justinwallace5145
3 жыл бұрын
I have ADHD and reading complete sentences is almost impossible, especially when excited. I have had the spell situation happen to me where people would double check my understanding of spells and abilities. I loved this, when it was done in an honest and helpful light. If you think someone is cheating when it comes to the rules of a spell or ability just go over it with them, i know that i just am unable to read it completely.
@jameswalker4397
3 жыл бұрын
I get rid of cheaters, but I'm always polite about it. Usually the cheater, faced with a choice, stops cheating. I'm a player with phenomenal luck die rolling. We did several checks over the years, keeping track of 100 die rolls and doing the math. Statistically I'm above average just a smidge. We decided it was proof of telekinesis. In any event, we never let it bother our games. It became a joke running through the history of our group. Never considered a little fudging to be a big deal, we were more about the roleplay and the story than the strict rules.
@racoonronin1482
3 жыл бұрын
Oh nice you got the Alien RPG, I've fallen in love with that system!
@nicholashurst780
3 жыл бұрын
I would just like to thank you for letting Todd be the good player since we all saw from your Kirk vs Picard video that he is in fact the good player
@archonfett
Жыл бұрын
I have one double 20 die, I use it when running the BBEG because the BBEG fumbling is just embarrassing and had way to many get one shot for rolling a one on their save, My players know I have it and when I use it (and honestly even with it having 2 20s if I had a nickel for every 20 it did roll I'd have 2 nickels it often rolls well just rarely crits, but at least it can't fumble) and when I'm the player I leave it in the bag. once burned a peeper I had downloaded and printed a map of the Tomb of Horrors, now I wasn't running the tomb but I needed a map for the dungeon I was running I had renumbered and basicaly rewrote everything in the rooms it was just the layout. knew who the peeper was by his panic stricken face.
@lordshell
3 жыл бұрын
We've had a regular cheater/munchkin in our games. Nice guy and actually a really good roleplayer, but completely obsessed with NOT LOSING. We finally banished him from the games, but we felt bad about it for all the aforementioned reasons. If he could drop his obsession, we would gladly welcome him back.
@Tony-dh7mz
3 жыл бұрын
He just doesn't know his options, show him its okay to fail, If you sell him on the idea (something he is likely not even considered) that a failed roll feeds in to the story, That "its not about the hand that's dealt to you, but how you play it" and it can still be fun, If he really is a good player its an easy fix
@Minodrec
3 жыл бұрын
Try a system involving less dice.
@davrion
3 жыл бұрын
Some of the other cheater types I've encountered are 1. "Bad at Math" - usually with 3.x or Pathfinder with all the custom modifiers either double-counted or negative modifiers "forgotten" 2. "Old School d20" - you know that person who rolls a d20 that only has numbers 0-9 twice, and then rolls a second die to differentiate a 5 from a 15. The cheat is always on the second die rolled, i.e. "odd is high" or "4-6 on a d6 is high", the specific method changes according to what is rolled. Often accompanied by the quick grab of the second die 3. The "Preroller" - who randomly rolls dice ahead of time, none of which count....unless it's a good roll, then that's their to-hit roll 4. The "Multi-Roller" - rolls a bunch of dice for distinct things at the same time, and then maps each roll to the particular roll. Think Pathfinder with multiple attack rolls (+10 first attack, +5 second attack), the high d20 roll is always for the secondary attack based on some weird logic ("my second favorite aunt lives in Orange County, so the 2nd d20 is the orange one")
@shawnratashak1296
3 жыл бұрын
I will aquire every module that I play in but won't look at it until the end. I am going to devour it after to see what I missed. I try to keep character knowledge and player knowledge separate but I have to admit that I'm far from perfect on that. I am always willing to give the GM warning that I know what is coming.
@mikhielrearaxin
Жыл бұрын
Before the video: I see tt games as a relationship with friends. I won't police chesting. If I catch it, I will simply say, "Hey, this is for fun. You can’t win anything by cheating here. These stakes and this tension is for us to all enjoy ourselves. If this trust continues to be broken, I won't playvwith you."
@wickedly1
3 жыл бұрын
I am unfortunately one of the players who has to keep an eye on one of my other players. My DM has a deteriorating brain disease, so, I am the one who keeps track of all the rules and who has what. Well, there is one player that will describe a spell, then we'll look it up out of my suspicion, and it'll be wrong or not what he said. It does cause stress because, despite me being happy calling him out on it, it creates stress because it is still a confrontation.
@pickleplayer33
3 жыл бұрын
My DM pretty much openly allows cheating and it's a pretty big damper on the game. There's one guy in the group that walked in with a 20 in strength, dex, and con on his level 6 character sheet, and he's a "snatcher" but like, he's really bad at it and we can all see him cheating. When I brought it up to the DM, he kind of just shrugged it off and said DnD is a fantasy game and he didn't mind people playing out a fantasy. Yea, DnD is a fantasy game. You don't need to cheat for it to be a fun fantasy, but cheaters actively harm the experience of everyone else playing. It really sucks playing a defender for a team that doesn't really need defending.
@Andulvar
3 жыл бұрын
Only had a few players in my group that cheated over my 30 years of gaming. Last one was about 15 years ago. The guy always had a d20 that was black with read numbers and they would always fudge their numbers.
@solusaldrain
3 жыл бұрын
I have terrible luck with dice, but I could never bring myself to cheat
@ArvelDreth
2 жыл бұрын
I cheated in D&D in the past, when I was in middle school and high school. I cheated on some rolls, mainly saving throws, after rolling multiple consecutive terrible rolls. In that campaign, my ranger barely pulled his weight in any encounter (combat, social, exploration etc) and I cheated on some rolls more or less just to barely stay sort of relevant in the game. It didn't help that my build was quite unoptimized and I never used any of my ranger spells. Regardless of what dice I used back then, I'd usually get either very bad or just below average luck. I still don't think what I did was truly bad, but I understand the psychological effect it can have on some other players. Just like the difference between a cheating and fudging DM, I think intent matters. If a player is consistently cheating to upstage or hog the spotlight of the other players, trivialize encounters, always "misreading" spell descriptions and fudging inventory and spell slots, that's different than someone who has uncanny bad luck and fudges the fourth single digit roll in a row as a 13 every now and then; while still actually having lower than average rolls overall anyway. I never cheat anymore but when I'm a DM I don't really care if a player very occasionally fudges after a run of bad luck. As long as they don't lie about a nat 19 or 20.
@danikainq6494
3 жыл бұрын
Frankly, it's Dweebles that I'd expect to be a cheater
@zonegamma8197
3 жыл бұрын
play with good people or don't play at all, it is not worth it ! very good video
@halofornoobs93
3 жыл бұрын
I have this problem with 2 members of my DnD group. One of them is the most experienced player while the other is still fairly new. We will call the experienced player Burt and the newer guy Ernie. Burt was our first real DM and was the guys who taught most of use how to play. I have the worst luck while rolling so no one would ever accuse me of cheating. In his first campaign I played a paladin. I was able to mitigate my bad rolls with a very high AC. Well, after the first session I notice that I was starting to get hit.... a lot. It bothered me so I started keeping track of when people got hit. Somehow, despite having the highest AC, 20, which was 9 higher than the wizard, enemies had the highest accuracy against me by well over 10 percentage points. I would point this out but he would just dismiss my claims. Fast forward a year and I am now DMing my first ever "one shot"(really it took 6 sessions) which was a homebrew game. Burt and Ernie were two of the five members in my group. I noticed right away that they hit very often and made saves very often. After the first session, I took all of my monsters' AC's and my player's proficiency bonuses and calculated the chance to hit. I then took all the hits and misses during the next two sessions and did the math. It seemed regardless of the AC, they were hitting on average around 80% of the time when they should have only been hitting about 55-60% of the time. I called them out on this and they both denied cheating. Oddly enough, Ernie's roles the next session and all sessions after were more in line with the correct probabilities. Burt was still way off. I've noticed that Burt plays his characters in a way that keeps them as far from danger as possible. This mentality of his and his abnormally high success rate lead me to believe that he is a cheater. Even when I am just another player I notice his cheating. It's gotten to the point where I can often correctly guess what he is going to roll because I know a roll lower than what is required will be impossible. 3 of the players don't care and 2 of them do. We play on Roll20 and I don't want to force people to roll on there since rolling with real dice is fun, but I just can't trust Burt not to cheat. It really sucks because I am about to start my first complete homebrew campaign and I really don't know what to do.
@Shinigami13133
3 жыл бұрын
I'll be honest, if I'm on a really rough rolling streak and no one is paying attention, I'll cheat a die roll or two. But only enough to actually have a success for once instead of just sitting there only rolling a d20 ever 15 minutes due to the glacial pace of our play sessions
@ValdVincent
3 жыл бұрын
Well the golden rule of "when you chetch of a cheater, they die violently and are kicked" is the old way of handling it.
@Ellebeeby
3 жыл бұрын
Chetch?
@arjunchoong8012
3 жыл бұрын
77K Subscribers! We are SO close to having a full-length movie starring Seth and only Seth! OK, maybe not THAT close... so share and ask your friends to subscribe too!
@lancejobs
3 жыл бұрын
I do beleive in Monopoly Cheating and not being caught is part of the full game. Very least hide some funds in off shore accounts eg tuck some 500s under the 1s or the boards corner. ;3 A surprise stimulus for when the other players think you are beat XD My favorite piece is The Wizard! it's a cast wizard from something else, table top pieces too is kinda fun.
@KiniroKitsune
3 жыл бұрын
Omg I'm so happy. Todd gets to be a nice player yay.
@blg020
3 жыл бұрын
I would never read a module behind the Dm's back. I don't want to know what's gonna happen. I love being surprised and playing the game. Same reason I don't look up set list of concerts before the show I don't want to know what songs there gonna play.
@lukajovanovic8923
3 жыл бұрын
Love it Seth! Hope you are doing good :3 Stay frosty 😉
@RevPirateDan
2 жыл бұрын
As a GM and as a player, I tend to keep an eye on what everybody else is doing. RPGs have extensive rules, a lot of people don't know all the rules that well, and the ways rules interact can be quite complicated. In the last 5+ years, the number of times I've had to say "using a magic item is an action, so extra attack doesn't apply" or "that spell doesn't work that way, you cannot use it" has been like 25% the number of times I've had to tell people "Don't forget you can also use your bonus action" or "you still get your full attack with your off hand, you just don't get full damage". I suspect that, when you play with honest adults, people err on the side of not wanting to risk looking like cheaters, and thus their mistakes are disproportionately against their own best interests. Maybe. I dunno.
@bigblue344
3 жыл бұрын
I once caught a player cheating among other stuff and I told him to quit it. His first response was that I was trying to kick him out of the group. Thankfully I don't play with him anymore.
@Tony-dh7mz
3 жыл бұрын
Its okay to challenge the cheater, call him on it, But do it with humour, it will defuse any tension, If you over react the knock on will effect the game,
@wildandwackywade
Жыл бұрын
I know ot be a lot of work, and I am or it's off topic again here, but he be cool to see a full game with all your alter ego players and npcs. I even help if you like too.
@Xingmey
3 жыл бұрын
yay another seth so is my spooktober complete :)
@shadowhog777
3 жыл бұрын
16:46 I can't believe *Mike fucking died.*
@eneapepa1746
2 жыл бұрын
i thought this would've been about DMs cheating players like fudging dice
@TheFeanor74
3 жыл бұрын
A very annoying kind of players are the "rule benders" that will interpret every rule to their favor and will come up with strange rule applications stating that they should absolutely be allowed because they are not explicitly forbidden. Remember the guy from the iconic "The Gamers" video that claimed a sneak attack with a ballista? That kind of players... I guess that they do not technically count as "cheaters", though.
@Nikcollini
3 жыл бұрын
I'll be honest. Cheating in a game where everything is made up is the most pathetic thing I can think of.
@earlkriewall7251
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video.
@gaminreasons8941
3 жыл бұрын
Mike might've just been a guy that seemed suspicious, some people are just like that, but because of poor memory, lucky rolls, and poor reading skills was pegged as a cheater incorrectly, that or he was just good enough at cheating to never get caught but was still bad enough that everyone suspected him.
@Minodrec
3 жыл бұрын
Please their is no "innocent until proven guilty" when being suspicious is already affecting the game. Book keeping and dice etiquette aren't that hard and are required skills to play most RPG. It's like playing table tennis with someone unable to do a proper service. It's not fun and unless he is a beginner I wont bother.
@gaminreasons8941
3 жыл бұрын
@@Minodrec Do you believe in "Innocent until proven guilty" or not? It's not something you be wishy washy on. Either you do or you don't. It isn't always convenient, of course, but it is necessary. Could he have improved his habits and ability? Yeah, but Seth's group at the time doesn't appear to have actually tried helping him, instead they assumed he was cheating and that lead to resentment and further suspicion leading to the games not being as good. I'm not saying he wasn't a cheater, what I am saying is that as suspicious as he was, there is enough doubt to say "we're not sure." I mean if he wasn't a cheater and they kicked him out without evidence that's a dick move, and if he was a cheater and they kicked him out for being suspicious, well they were lucky to be right but that doesn't change the fact that the evidence is lacking and that is irresponsible and he could've been honest, most importantly, acting in that manner might lead a different player in the future to get that first option if they look suspicious. It's not a good situation, either you kick someone out unfairly or you are being irresponsible with your power as a GM or Group and acted without full knowledge. Does it suck? Of course. But the reality is that pretending to be certain on something muddy leads to a greater chance of mistakes.
@OviD11111
3 жыл бұрын
"lucky rolls" but ooooooh you missed it! it's a natty20 though, I swear! Whaddoumean you wanna see?? UCALLIN ME A CHEATA OR WHAT?!
@gaminreasons8941
3 жыл бұрын
@@OviD11111 I mean if you actually listened to Seth he said his Rolls were only good, not amazing. Like, he rolls a 12 when others rolled a 10.
@marcar9marcar972
3 жыл бұрын
@@gaminreasons8941 don’t get me wrong. I really do appreciate your commitment to the “Innocent until proven guilt” concept. It is one of the founding concepts on which our justice system is built. It’s extremely important and honestly people don’t give it the credit it deserves now a days. For anything important, such as crime and justice, that should be what you go by. That being said I think we can lower the standards a little bit for a RPG game between close friends. I’m not suggesting we completely disregard the idea like Minodrec suggested but I think we might be able to bend a bit. You could argue slippery slope (unlike most people I do think it’s a valid argument especially considering how often it actually happens) but considering I have shown respect for the ideal of “Innocent until proven guilty” I think it’ll work out. That being said do what you feel is right, I have no intention of stopping you. Good luck
@lorenbecker8876
3 жыл бұрын
Not that I've been having trouble with cheating, One thing I've been thinking of offering my players an Easy Mode option when they can just add 3 to their normal rolls. Everyone, had a bad day when they don't want to lose, particularly lately.
@SpaceButler010
3 жыл бұрын
You could consider something like hero points, where players could spend them to boost or reroll a roll. You can give them out for exciting actions or good roleplaying. More fun than a flat bonus.
@garrick3727
3 жыл бұрын
This is the best video on the subject I've seen. I particularly appreciate making the point that the other players are affected more than the DM. One problem that was mention which I find particularly prevalent these days is players reading the module beforehand. It's almost certain that at least one player will read the module, sometimes many of them. In fact, when I watch people play on KZitem I can often spot people who obviously read the module. These people are usually the ones who say the least, perhaps seem the least engaged, often impatient to move on. They often want to check for traps inconsistently, and if another player is checking for traps or secrets when there are none to be found you will often hear these players make a case that there are probably no traps or secrets here because of some reason. When the wizard character is asking the party what spells to prepare, the player who pre-read will often have sage advice. Perhaps the most telling tell is when they insist on going a certain direction or stopping to search a particular area. Don't get me wrong, many of these players try to be subtle about it, it's more their varying engagement that gives them away. Luckily for me, I never liked pre-written modules much, as written, and I cannot help but make changes. There are a body of players online who recommend that modules be played as written and that DMs should not change them, and I have to wonder what the motivation is there. It's funny to hear them talk about modules like video games, recommending that a player get their DM to run module X because there is a particular item that will benefit the player character. But I do not play with those players.
@inappropriateperson6947
3 жыл бұрын
I remember when I played a module with a guy who never searched anywhere. Then when he got to this one room, he started searching. I rolled & said he didn't find anything. Then he said he searched again, & then again, & again. I was rolling behind the DM screen too. Yes there was a magic weapon there. I finally said "You find an exploding sword"... He said "A what sword?"
@Gladerunner2113
3 жыл бұрын
On roll20 at least, everyone rolls into the system, and every high or low is plain for everyone to see. The one time I got a whiff of something funky was when we were creating characters. The DM said he would roll stats for everyone, and I obliged. I got a pretty decent spread (better than a standard array, so I was happy). A few days later, another player got a character with no stat below 12, a 16 and 15. (In which they started with 18 Dex on a Monk) Now, I'm a paranoid bastard sometimes, so I had an alarm bell or two ringing in my head. I asked my DM about it, and apparently she'd been allowed to use her own rolls. I cited that it was unfair to all of us who had an honesty check. What surprised me again was - apparently, she had picked an Elf without knowing that subraces existed. On one hand, that dissuaded me from any notion of min-max cheating. On the other, now she had an 18 Dex, 16 Wis Monk. For better or worse, I rolled with it. I thoroughly enjoyed the opening session and the DM was great with NPCs and worldbuilding. For worse, the player dropped out before the second session, so we were stuck with just two players (and the horror of my first combat). I suppose this wasn't long term cheating, but I suppose I have a distinct nose for unfairness.
@ApesAmongUs
3 жыл бұрын
That sounds like random numbers.
@cthulhupthagn5771
3 жыл бұрын
Separate thought, but as far as your question as to why somebody wouldn't use a pre-printed adventure. Sometimes cheating isn't necessarily intentional. Among my circle of of Gamers, the vast majority of them are Avid players and collectors. This was a little more difficult 20-30 years ago when there was a lot more product on the market, but these days it's not unusual to find out that everybody that I know already owns everything that has been released. Add to that many new modules being released are updates, re-releases, re-imaginings of old classics. See the majority of what Wizards has put out, Goodman games has their reincarnated series, so on and so forth. It's only natural for some of us long-term Gamers that we're going to want to look at a classic module that we played and see what's been updated or changed in their newest printings. That said there's also a point to be made that the current generation of people are raised more on video game logic. So they don't see anything necessarily bad on reading up on a module before their damn runs them through it because they would do the same thing with strategy guides and online documentation for video games. This isn't all that far-fetched, I've gained for multiple generations and some of those who are up-and-coming have had to be talked to about that mindset.
@fasullodan
3 жыл бұрын
So, I am a very skewed view of cheaters. I am a new DM, but have been playing for years. My primary goal as a DM is to let the players have fun. If someone wants to cheat on their rolls because it makes the game better for them -- then have at it. As the DM, I will simply counter act anything that becomes unbalanced. I will do EVERYTHING you mentioned cheaters will do as the DM. Fighting in DND is kind of boring unless it has a story behind it; if cheating makes things better for the players - then please do.
@kmoustakas
3 жыл бұрын
I hate cheaters because if they cheat, all my effort to win was pointless :(
@lockwoan01
3 жыл бұрын
Then there's the Cheater who "Fails" the dice roll. Now, this is second-hand, happening before I joined, so take it with a grain of salt. Party finds themselves in middle of undead uprising, and make it to the roofs. However, to get to safety, the party must jump across the rooftops. In the party is a dwarf, who has an issue - they can't jump that far. Thus, the decision is made to toss them from rooftop to rooftop, helping him up at every turn. Problem is, one character "always" fail to make the skill-check needed. Out of character, one player claimed that they'd rolled something like a nine, or whatever, claiming that their guy hadn't made the mark needed to help the dwarf. However, another player next to them noted that they'd rolled high enough to make the skill-check. For whatever reason, the alleged cheater left the group for "reasons". Long term effects, pre-current events, when folks sat next to each other, everyone would check their neighbor's dice. This actually is useful as the one player is legally blind. In game, this lead to the dwarf getting a fear of heights, due to falling to the street from missing the roof-catch.
@theatheistbear3117
3 жыл бұрын
Basically ‘The Sabotager.’
@lockwoan01
3 жыл бұрын
@@theatheistbear3117 To be fair, the dwarf always has bad luck with the dice (especially since they have negative modifiers to their soft stats), and initially it was thought that the Dice Gods were against the dwarf, as usual - it wasn't until the cheater had left the group, and I had joined, that the truth was revealed, as the incident was, more or less brought up in casual conversation, with the one player mentioning what they'd seen. The DM was a little surprised himself that he hadn't noticed it. Then again, the group has people who like goofy characters.
@Hafaechaes
2 жыл бұрын
One type of cheater i don't see mentioned anywhere is what I call the "leeway abuser". - If there's no consensus on what to do when a roll isn't intentional, they will say "that roll doesn't count, it slipped out of my hand" when it benefits them. Same with rolls that land on the floor. - If the game master allows the players to either to use double the dice or just x2 the damage on a crit, they will roll the damage dice once before deciding if they're gonna double it or roll again. - If they're the only one to remember a rule that would be to their disadvantage, they conveniently just not bring it up. - If the game master tells them they would've had dis-/advantage on a roll after the fact and doesn't specify how he would like the reroll to be done, they will discount their original roll if it was bad and roll two fresh ones, or just roll one additional one if the roll was good. - If the game master tells them they wouldn't have had advantage on a roll after the fact, they will say that both rolls would've hit anyway if that was the case, OR say that the first roll would've hit, OR reroll an additional time if the second roll was the one that hit - doing whatever is the most advantageous to them - If they get numbers jumbled up in their head, they'll just go with whatever number benefits them more. - If they forget to do a bonus action on their turn, instead of taking responsibility and doing better next turn, they try to do it retroactively if they know their GM to be lenient. - etc.
@liamdoda7165
8 ай бұрын
I come back to this video every now and then and I feel like “Mike” is definitely a cheater not because if any 1 thing he did, but because if it was truly a mistake in the case of hiding rolls or inventory, why would he never learn? Especially if he’s been playing for long enough to already know that’s wrong, new players are one thing but a veteran is held to a different standard. Although no matter what you think it’s a social contract issue at the end of the day
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