Bill's statement regarding free will is also self-defeating because it renders rationality impossible. if everything that we think is merely the result of the chemicals in our brain, as Bill claims, then we arrive at conclusions not because they are rational, but solely because that is how the chemicals fall out. Thus, there is no possibility of rationality. Though it does seem that everything Bill says is in fact merely the chaotic collocation of chemicals.
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
And your God cursed generations of people with black skin to make them unattractive to white Native Americans. Bill's chemicals win out over your chaotic concoction.
@EstevanLPLeal
Жыл бұрын
Exactly. As fas as I understand, empirical science still can't explain how consciousness happen and this is why there is a "hard problem of consciousness" which nobody - and of course not Bill - has solved.
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
@@EstevanLPLeal Just because science hasn't solved it yet is no reason to make up an invisible mean spirited person in the sky as being the source.
@blakeostler8965
Жыл бұрын
@@lrsvalentine You are correct - but it does show that the BS claim that science shows that we have no free will and that we are just chemicals is BS.
@davidjanbaz7728
Жыл бұрын
@@lrsvalentine atheistism is unverifiable and your irrational thinking has no evidence to support it : you're left with only nonevidential opinions .
@blakeostler8965
Жыл бұрын
Finally, Bill simply refused to limit himself to the debate topic. He merely wanted to badmouth Mormon leaders and not talk about ethics or morality. He offers no discussion or argument at all for his position -- he simply asserts without support that he subjectively believes that certain things are good with no basis other than his gut or mere assertion. That is just not based on rationality.
@hansenjacob1986
Жыл бұрын
Glad some people noticed.
@123mneil
Жыл бұрын
As opposed to the gut feeling that the church is true? 😜
@blakeostler8965
Жыл бұрын
@@123mneil If that is what you think a confirming spiritual experience is then it is evident you have not had one. Such a complete caricature and reduction demonstrates that you have no idea what you are talking about.
@Sayheybrother8
Жыл бұрын
@@blakeostler8965 is the confirmation of the spirit something more than what sone might call a gut feeling? I’ve heard many faithful members describe their testimonies in terms very similar to if not exactly that. A gut feeling or sense of understanding that it’s just true. Why is that a misrepresentation of what this commenter was asking. Also, why is there push back against those that accept truths that’ve been learned through 1000’s of years of social experiments what works best for the most people?
@blakeostler8965
Жыл бұрын
@@Sayheybrother8 I suggest a good course in ethics as a starter to this conversation. 1000s of years of "social experimentation" will never give us an ethic because ought does no equal is. Observing how things are will never provide information about how they ought to be. Further, the kind of experimentation you suggest is exactly what the Nazis did -- literally -- and it is itself unethical in extremis. Finally, the experience of the spirit is not at all like a "gut feeling" -- it is an experience of the heart burning in knowing with an awareness of pure intelligence flowing into one that confirms the truth of a matter or matters. It is quite different.
@kevinnelson6331
9 ай бұрын
Great conversation!!! Jordan Peterson’s point on psychedelics and smoking sensation bridges the scientific/spiritual realm in a spectacular way. Also his points of the biblical texts being the best literary source for truth because it is the most quoted and cited book in our English language thus making it the most true book we have.
@madmanmanx
Жыл бұрын
Kori-Bore vs. Gospel-snore. Jacob Hanson wins the match of wits hands down… now let’s wake everyone up and tell them!
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
I prefer Jacob’s WWE-type persona when he’s on Midnight (strike through) Mormons. I’m glad he regularly gets to go off the top rope on your show. Thanks for having him
@joshua.snyder
Жыл бұрын
@@shibainferno That is all these guys are, personalities. Hansen loves his own flatulence, and Cardon peddles drummed up controversy. They use the church for clicks, and attention to build their own brands while promoting conspiracies, political fearmongering, pseudo-philosophy and childishness to entertain waning Mormon youth and disgruntled conservatives into staying a while longer. They selfishly make a game of people's faith.
@DiffQ_Bro
Жыл бұрын
Jacob did surprisingly well. I've had my misgivings about him (esp given his political leanings) but he didnt let them getin the way of argumentation. Bill Reel also wasn't as dumb as I thought he was, but was still being evasive the entire time.
@jope2123
Жыл бұрын
Best conversation I have ever seen/heard . Very well done Jacob and Bill.
@Spenwall
Жыл бұрын
Bill talks about doing those things that science says creates the best outcomes. However, I would guess that he wouldn't push for things like children being brought up in 2 parent heterosexual families. This is backed by science as being the best situation for children.
@ignaciodelgado889
Жыл бұрын
And it is an example of The Prophets being ahead of their current times. In 50 years we will see the world rediscovering the law of chastity and the word of wisdom as the cure to a lot of social issues.
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
And you're full of it. There isn't enough data to compare to outcomes from two-parent homosexual homes.
@JennieFur47
Жыл бұрын
@@lrsvalentine well when outcome is that there are less children born to those couples. Listen to Elon Musk talk about how there aren’t enough babies.
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
Nah. Homosexual couples adopting babies that good Christians don't take has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not good Christians have babies.
@Isabella-nd3rq
6 ай бұрын
Seriously? What a ridiculous comment.
@bobwilkinson1217
Жыл бұрын
If we are simply bio chemistry in the cosmos, where is the need for morality?
@comokazijeff
7 ай бұрын
Just because a bad decision may lead to a good result does not mean that bad decision was good. A woman marrying a bad man may lead to abuse and divorce, does that mean any children born in that marriage are bad? Good results come from bad decisions all the time. That doesn't change the morality of the decision made.
@ShinzoLinzo
Жыл бұрын
This was great! I love hearing different perspectives! Thank you Bill and Jacob!
@Billsbob
Жыл бұрын
1:56:33 this is where my head explodes. No free will, but people can ‘choose’ to lead a different life….
@OntheOtherHandVideos
Жыл бұрын
But you see, your head was predetermined to explode . . . XD Ya, Bill lost me there too. Granted I wasn't convinced of his arguments to that point, but I find his foundational premises so at odds with reality that it is laughable.
@cinnamondan4984
Жыл бұрын
This has been utterly fascinating 🧐
@randydouglass8872
11 ай бұрын
I could only make it through the first half. Bill contradicts himself in so many ways
@user-tz3zl1kr7r
10 ай бұрын
Did Mr Reel Deconstruct his happiness? I want to follow Jesus. I need to follow Jesus in the fullest way possible.
@GrassrootsLibertyBillFoster
Жыл бұрын
Eat Beef, read the Bible and the Book of Mormon, refrain from Soy Sauce, repudiate the man bun. Bill Reel just needs to stop listening to Morrissey and peel off his Coexist Sticker off his Volvo
@richardallen383
Жыл бұрын
This podcast has been posted on both Bill Reel’s Mormon Discussions podcast site and Jacob Hansen’s Thoughtful Faith podcast site. Bill Reel blocks comments that show the fallacy of his point of view. Bill’s inability to understand and digest comments that demonstrate his lack of knowledge on the subject simply confirms Bill doesn’t have the mental acuity needed to defend his point of view to serious criticism that he is unable to defend. To my knowledge Jacob doesn’t block comments contrary to his viewpoint. That alone tells you Jacob’s morality is more valid than Bill’s morality.
@hackerj23
Жыл бұрын
Great job Jacob. I think Bill’s position is extremely vulnerable in two points, one of which you hit on well but one that want raised. The one you mentioned was that morality is a non sequitur in the “no free will” world. At best, he can say (and he tried to say) that we use language like “morality” to convey a more impactful punch in our discussions. (Of course he’d say that wasn’t our choice to do that.) This is as much a core belief as a belief in God. The science is far less settled on this point than he suggests. Perhaps on certain short term reactions he is right (something approximating mental reflexes), but on longer-term considered decisions (eg whether homosexuality is right or wrong) he has no evidence. The second point I wish you’d brought up was his constant refrain of “the church is at best hit or miss”. I love this comment by nonbelievers because actually our society is VERY hit and miss. The vast majority of ideas are bad, on an individual level and a societal level. Consider that society supported eugenics, a phobia of world overpopulation, affirmative action, kindness as a highest good, that gender is malleable, and even his idea that free will is an illusion have all been societally accepted, mainstream views. These are just a short sampling. For this reason, the leaders of the church have recognized that there is tremendous truth in tradition. So it requires an extremely high evidentiary bar to override those truths. So it is hardly surprising that the world will be ahead of the church on most new changes. What’s more important than adopting a good change quickly is to avoid adopting potentially devastating changes quickly. The world is an extremely dangerous place. Ideas can be dangerous. And the good ones will bear themselves out with time, consideration, and yes revelation.
@hansenjacob1986
Жыл бұрын
Great comment
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
Wow. Truly an uninformed comment. It's better to slow roll civil rights????? I've heard some goofy Mormon stuff in my life but this has to take the cake.
@danielstark8356
Жыл бұрын
@1:01:00 (around this time) But in our modern society most people still don't truly care about the well-being of people outside themselves, their families, and/or a few close friends (their tribe, so to speak). Sure, lots of people give lip service to this idea of helping others outside of that tribe, but most people only do that if it's not too inconvenient or too costly to themselves or their tribe. So this idea that our society is progressively becoming so much less selfish is just not something I'm buying
@Latter-dayKneefighter
2 ай бұрын
Your use of the words, "so much less selfish" makes it difficult to find fault with your belief on this topic. While humans do tend to be tribal, there are ways to strengthen or weaken tribalism. While Jacob and Bill are both intelligent, neither appears to be well versed on this complex topic. In the book, "The Better Angels of Our Nature", Steven Pinker explores this idea in depth. Robert Sapolsky's, "A Primates Memoir" provides a unique and fascinating glimpse into social morality. If you are interested in this topic, and wish to learn more, E. O. Wilson's work in this area is also amazing.
@maplelakemountain8880
Жыл бұрын
I feel bill didn’t quite understand what Jacob was getting at in the first hour. It was pretty clear when bill started to grill him.
@kevanjoel1671
Жыл бұрын
Thank you both for a great conversation! I may disagree with Bill but I respect him for actually talking to Jacob.
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
Same. I’m glad Bill came out so we could get a better look at his position and decide for ourselves… assuming we can decide
@PreTribSaints
5 ай бұрын
Hi Bill. I wanted to let you know that there is a God and Jesus Christ is His Son. I know this for a fact. Ive witnessed it first hand. I've had a miraculous experience with Christ, as a former athesit. Jesus is the Christ and the only way to the Father. There is life eternal. I hope you come back to believe this. Whether or not the LDS church is the restored church I do not know. I have not been given an answer.
@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971
Жыл бұрын
Great job Jacob. Absolutely awesome. He wouldn’t stick to the subject. He wanted to throw out red herrings for you to chase in order to throw the discussion off of his indefensible stance of relative morality. In the same sentence he says there is no moral truth but yet some things are moral absolutes. Completely irrational position.
@45s262
Жыл бұрын
If the salt has lost its savor wherewith shall it be salted?
@Lindairrisorie
Жыл бұрын
There are many more members outside the United States.
@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971
Жыл бұрын
There are no moral standards, yet the church has the wrong moral standards 😂
@dcarts5616
Жыл бұрын
This was the theme the entire conversation.
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
Nah. Bill clearly showed the church had and has awful moral standards. Kinda weird for an unchanging god.
@livingmombirth4005
Жыл бұрын
@@lrsvalentine He established that he is convinced that he is very wise and his subjective moral standards are better than every other religious standards in spite of the fact that he says he believes there are no moral absolutes. Makes no sense at all.
@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971
Жыл бұрын
@@lrsvalentine God is unchanging but his commands change on occasion to fit his purposes. For God, the ends justify the means.
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
@@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971 You have to say that to try to make sense of an unchanging god that changes all the time (including his morals).
@123mneil
Жыл бұрын
How fun. The live chat is like a side debate of morality. 😂
@WookyWarrior
Жыл бұрын
Around min 50, Bill's use of primate family and group association to validate an innate species morality is ludicrous. Taking care of family groups is a farm of self preservation, and that setting to learn morality to the point where you can grow that family group to an increased size makes sense. But imaging an entire species living in harmony for self preservation just doesn't work in practicality. Not without a powerful influence to make it so. Its inherently why the USA was designed to be a single nation of seperate autonomous states. And yet we see how it all falls apart without a higher force to keep it united.
@davisgerald2980
Жыл бұрын
Glory!!!!I'm favoured, $230K every 4weeks! I can now afford anything and also support God's work and the church. Can you imagine ?
@r.l.5964
Жыл бұрын
It is interesting looking at the comments on the different versions. It just goes to show that debates often lead nowhere.
@alwaysentertained
Жыл бұрын
I love how Bill says he wants to demonstrate how he wants to show that he can be part of a congenial conversation with faithful members, then you read any of his comments he makes online and he shows he’s such a hateful individual toward those of his former faith. He comes across as owned by pride in this conversation.
@OntheOtherHandVideos
Жыл бұрын
Ya, when the conversation ends with one side saying 'everything is predetermined' and 'everything is subjective', I think that is a ridiculous position to have. If one truly believed those things, the only path out of despair (from my point of view) is deluding yourself that it's not true. It's no wonder this world-view assumes religions are just delusional things people do to cope with the world, the very world view that alleges this necessitates deluding one's self.
@Sayheybrother8
Жыл бұрын
You make a great point and explain why I was onboard with the objective reality of Bill’s being the reason to hold to certain morals. Then the lack of free will talk made me jump off that train. But I couldn’t just get onboard with agreeing with the subjective morality of the objectively fallible leader that Jacob holds to. That’s why it was a good discussion. These are ideas that haven’t been fully explored or resolved by mankind but are extremely interesting and relevant.
@OntheOtherHandVideos
Жыл бұрын
@@Sayheybrother8 I agree it was a good discussion, but I guess for me, in the best discussions I come away thinking there was something to the person I disagreed with that really made me think. Here, I had no such positive take away. Bill seemed quite intent on bringing other topics into the discussion, and laying some specific accusations at the Church of Jesus Christ, which I'm fine with, but that wasn't the topic at hand, and none of his accusations seemed to further the conversation imo. I just came away thinking that Bill still has a chip on his shoulder, and a world view that makes no sense to me. Also, I'd add that while Prophets of the Church of Jesus Christ definitely are fallible, they can be pretty objectively judged by the Christian morals and principles they teach - I wouldn't categorize them as having 'subjective morality'. You could say each prophet might have a different interpretation on various scripture and topics, but that is pretty different from 'subjective morality' imo.
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
Right? Everything is subjective… but you’re wrong! 🙀
@Sayheybrother8
Жыл бұрын
@@OntheOtherHandVideos would you agree that Jacob believes the LDS church is the ultimate authority on earth of what truth is? I think Bill and Jacob knew this going into the conversation. Remember Bill was a true believer and he knows, from experience, that Jacobs truth and morals he refers to ultimately come from the current prophet of God. Bill wasn’t adding things that weren’t part of the conversation just addressing the elephant in the room. Jacobs truth is based on the words of a fallible prophet who speaks for God but doesn’t always speak as a prophet.
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
And Jacob's god has been a bunghole at times too. Just read the old testament.
@nathanpeterson5906
Жыл бұрын
Another example of Jacob claiming to be building a steel man when his is actually building a straw man: He pushes a Eugenics argument on to Bill’s position that Bill never claims. Bill asserts an evolutionary morality based in reciprocal altruism of social species. That is not the Eugenics of the Nazis, but Jacob tries to apply that kind of evolutionary morality in Bill. It’s not fair to tie that baggage around Bill’s points. That not a position he ever took.
@bobwilkinson1217
Жыл бұрын
What about the thousands of people who have died and have gone to the spirit realm and then have been revived and tell their experience. In every case, they meet a being of light from whom they feel all-encompassing love. They are given a life review and are able to feel all of the feelings of those they interacted with in life and the impact of that behavior for joy or sadness felt by the other person. There is an after-life-- we have thousands of NDE's who can witness that reality which they say is more real than our earthly experience.
@davidfrey5654
Жыл бұрын
Exactly Bob. Or the NDE stories in which people float into different rooms and then come back and explain in detail what was happening in those places. How do you explain that? There have been MANY stories like this that can be verified.
@bobwilkinson1217
Жыл бұрын
@@davidfrey5654 Many people today are so hard-hearted and hard-headed, and don't want life changes that point them to God, so no matter how much reliable data is provided for all to see, none of that information will convince most people to seek out God or to seek out what God wants them to do. They choose to believe in what is popular and pleasurable.
@nathanpeterson5906
Жыл бұрын
Where Jacob makes unfair assertions: 1. Bill outlines that you can create a subjective reality, then Jacob claims that because it is subjective it is no morality at all. Based on this argument alone he throws out all criticism Bill has of the church as invalid because he has no moral authority to criticize. This whole line of thinking is circular reasoning (begs the question). He assume the his version of the church has the moral authority, and criticism by an atheist is invalid, because they church has the moral authority and the atheist has none. 2. Jacob’s entire promise for why Christianity is the engine for morality is based on the ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy. He picks through history identifying where Christianity and Mormonism got it right, then assigns that goodness to the correct version of God. Then when his interlocutor identifies a time when Christianity or Mormonism got it wrong, he asserts that not true Christianity or Mormonism. By applying this fallacy he gets to claim all of the good and none of the bad if historical Christianity. This is manipulation and just as subjective of a moral position. Anytime morality improves he can change and claim that we always should have known. That isn’t really objective morality, it Monday morning quarterbacking.
@-tikla
Жыл бұрын
Who was more wrong on race? Science or religion? Who are the prophets of science? Are they infallible? Is it a closed system that doesnt take feedback? Are their gatekeepers? If God could be transmitted perfectly into a code of conduct there would be no faith, no veil, no opposition, no fun! If science could be petfectly known their would be no adventure to find answers and solve problems. The restored gospel is the only place where both ways of knowing truth are in harmony! We want all the truth
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
The restored gospel is silly. I mean really? Eternal baby making with polygamous wives in heaven? Just watch the John Larson episode on the evil nature of a plan that fills space and eternity up with billions of souls in outer darkness.
@Icanonlyimagn7891
Жыл бұрын
Why perpetuate the species if there is no point to life and suffering? And death is the end? From the things I have suffered (emotional, physical and sexual abuse and trauma I’ve endured as a child) I would have jumped off a cliff and been done with it, if I believed it would end the suffering that had no purpose for enduring. And I would have never had children thinking they too would feel horrible pain in a life that had no purpose. Let the species die out and suffering and trauma with it? 🤷🏼♀️
@SethKellerArt
Жыл бұрын
So we don't want to bring up the topic of not having agency in terms of child molesters, or bestialities because we can't pass judgement upon them because they don't have free choice. However we can pass judgement because the child and animals can't consent, and consent is important.... why according to Bill's viewpoint?
@shireecox122
Жыл бұрын
How does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints not do what Bill here is saying is what makes people good, and leads us into a better world? I disagree with him, when he says, that people in poverty are the ones who fight against others to get what they need. I saw just the opposite on my mission to the Philippines. Most of the awesome people were so poor, yet would feed us and help us in anyway they could. Of course, us missionaries weren’t even supposed to take their food, but they would often insist. They wanted to give even when they had very little to give. That’s not a naturalistic, evolutionary nature. They first believed in something. They didn’t do it because they had to either. But they had a belief system that they followed, that said, “Do unto others as you have others do unto you”.
@JennieFur47
Жыл бұрын
Exactly!
@nathanpeterson5906
Жыл бұрын
The church does a great deal of harm in many ways. It also does a great deal of good. It purports to speak for God and has held positions on gays that have cause many people self loathing and resulted in suicide. It continues to hold scriptures that call white skin color and indicator of Gods favor. The church labels people who leave it as dark and under the power of Satan. This teaching result injury to family relationships and pain on both sides. When I was in the church I could not see the harm only the good. I hope that maybe you can see and acknowledge the harm rather than perpetuating the pain and judgement towards those whose conscience does not allow them to continue to participate in the organization.
@shireecox122
Жыл бұрын
@@nathanpeterson5906 you mean, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints upholds male female marriage, which produce off spring, propagating families, which strengthens communities, therefore making the world a better place?
@lynnvanlandschoot6735
Ай бұрын
I have a comment about racism. Everyone on earth is racist. It is inherent in our make up for self preservation. The key is to not act on it. We must learn.
@jonathanbird5094
Жыл бұрын
The natural man is an enemy to God (Mosiah 3:19). Therefore, I can choose not to do what I naturally feel like doing. This is what is known as discipline. Those who choose to do the opposite of what they feel at the moment - I am mad and want to swear and insult the person who hurt me - but decide I will turn the other cheek, I have shown discipline which then makes me closer to being a disciple (descpline) of Christ. Hence, the only way to reach a perfect society is to follow the only perfect person born, Jesus Christ. Therefore, you can not reach a more perfect society without righteousness. That will never happen naturally through evolution.
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
44:01 interesting that “worse” is used without being defined
@thewashingtonreloader
Жыл бұрын
Bill clearly doesn't watch any shows about nature.
@dcarts5616
Жыл бұрын
Like ones about sharks, black widows, frogs etc.? And if we’re all just animals, how come humans are the only ones self deleting via sterilizing sex changes and homosexual behavior? I’m gonna be banned for that last sentence, I don’t care. Loving people is what we’re commanded to do, period, and I do.
@stacygodnick3887
Жыл бұрын
Animals don't have the privileges that human beings. To whom much is given, much is expected.
@bbbarham6264
Жыл бұрын
I was disappointed to see Jacob avoid Bill’s point that on social issues it is usually the brethren resisting new perspectives then in hindsight acknowledging that they were wrong. That is something I have wondered about for a long time.
@dcarts5616
Жыл бұрын
How do you know that the ban was wrong, and not just the reason for the ban? Many groups of people have had to wait for messages and blessings throughout history. I’m an idiot, so be kind in your response. I’m asking with sincerity.
@bheer98
Жыл бұрын
@@dcarts5616 I'm not the original comment poster, but I think you are completely right to ask this question. God has an order for everything, and he has revealed it in every single one of the standard works. He did not send Christ to the gentiles in his mortal ministry because He had a specific mission to fulfill in which only one group of people on earth would have the capacity to carry out. In Jacob 5, he planted the branches where he wanted them to be and in the order he wanted them to be in--and then he states that in harvest time, the first shall be last and the last shall be first. In relation to the Priesthood ban for black people, God needed that field to be as ripe and ready to harvest as it was in the late 20th century so that more hearts would grasp on to the Gospel with less perversion and outside political and tribal interference. We can view Jacob 5 and the hindsight of church growth as a road map to which groups were planted where, and which were first, last, and in between. With this insight and more, I cannot see the ban as inherently bad or evil, but rather that God administered his gospel in the manner and order He needed to. I do not believe that it came out of racism or bigotry from early church leaders, because if it did, why did the Prophets feel that there needed to be a revelation from God to reverse that ban? We ought not to quickly condemn past actors based on all the social values that are elevated today, many of which are blatantly false.
@livingmombirth4005
Жыл бұрын
Will someone help me understand how LBGTQ belief/structure is somehow better than the traditional family structure. Bill takes this idea as a scientific fact when it is merely an article of faith. A predisposition to do something dosen't mean you you have lost your will around that behavior. Bill is free and fast with the assumptions all the way through this discusion when he thinks he is being only scientific. Amazingly blind guy.
@talkofchrist
Жыл бұрын
21:00 - 24:00 & 58:00 why ought we do what Bill says? 1:30:00 "if the science gives us a way to take care of the planet and treat each other nicely, then that science is a credible source for determine morality" what?? We pick and choose science now based on if we prefer its results and the morality it supports?
@sethhousley5940
Жыл бұрын
The first part of this revolves around the moral and social dilemma of Utilitarianism. Which is: a society can be perfect as long as one person suffers. Do you give up a perfect society to stop the suffering of the one? Star Trek plays with this concept nearly constantly. Suffering is perceived. So in that way I disagree that our religious beliefs eliminate suffering but actually increase it in some ways. So even a moral framework given by a god almost has nothing to do with diminishing suffering in our lives, but more about which kind of suffering we experience, strength to overcome one type, find healing from another, submission to one, preventing another, and ultimate salvation from the final suffering. I think to be LDS is to accept that there will always be suffering, mortal suffering and then godly suffering.
@zionmama150
Жыл бұрын
23:34 we DO have prophets who speak with and hear God in His purity… ayayay I feel so bad for this guy. Because he clearly adopt the whole premise on which Christ came to the world. But he rejects the foundation a Christ built.
@boydx4687
Жыл бұрын
13:00. Is divine command theory any different than a believing LDS saying "what ever the Prophet tells me to do is right?" Does Jacob believe divine command theory is correct?
@zionmama150
Жыл бұрын
8:50 If he wants to reduce suffering and pain, why does he uphold narratives that cause suffering and pain? He hasn’t left the ideals of Christianity all together. His statement shows that he adopts some Christianity.
@blakeostler8965
Жыл бұрын
You are merely raising the problem of evil -- and there are numerous very sophisticated and thoughtful responses. The short answer is that God honors individual freedom.
@zionmama150
Жыл бұрын
@@blakeostler8965 Jacob covered what I said later in the debate. Basically, Bill said he adopts Christianity to a degree. But his degree. And his argument for morality falls apart at his assumption there is no free will.
@AnaliliB
Жыл бұрын
How are we so sure that animals don't know about their Creator?
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
1:38:56 objects to closed systems while subscribing to a closed system
@scottstrobell4677
Жыл бұрын
Hey Bill, where did science come from? What was the driving force behind the scientific revolution? Why did it happen when and where it did?
@nathanpeterson5906
Жыл бұрын
Science came from the Greek world. Christianity adopted science in the renaissance largely by read preserved Greek literature. Greek thinking heavily influenced Christian theology because Christianity emerged in a Hellenized society. We can thank, Plato Aristotle, and Alexander the Great for that.
@scottstrobell4677
Жыл бұрын
@@nathanpeterson5906 we can thank Greek thinking for influencing Christianity, but “science” as we know it today did not come from Greek thought. It came specifically from Christian thought. It was the only thought system that could provide the three religious pre-suppositions: 1) that the universe has order 2) that we are capable of understanding that order and 3) that it is good to do it. These can not come from a naturalist/materialist thinking. The curse of knowledge clouds our thinking about it today but I’ll refer you to Darwin himself: "With me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been develoned from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" ~CHARLES DARWIN
@rickyde0255
Жыл бұрын
So, my life is nothing more than a chemical reaction influenced by external stimuli. What a sucky existence.
@devincenatiempo2238
Жыл бұрын
Good conversation. I can sympathize with some of Bill's critiques of the church and christianity... but his alternative is empty illogical and empty. This sums up my feelings well: John 6 67: Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68: Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
@myeyepie
Жыл бұрын
I'm twelve minutes in. And I can't take anymore. All I sense is a deep darkness and confusion and emptiness here. Why do I need that? I don’t. Discerning spirits isn't that hard. This guy projects the absence of God. No thanks.
@ItsSnagret
Жыл бұрын
Its true, the countenance of Bill lacks light
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
Jacob has the countenance of delusion. Evolution is a fact.
@ItsSnagret
Жыл бұрын
@@lrsvalentine evolution may be a fact, but by what means is not a fact
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
@@ItsSnagret I'm pretty sure we know the means. Genetic variability arising from mutation and the environment providing selective pressure.
@ItsSnagret
Жыл бұрын
@@lrsvalentine but we're now finding that the mutation hypothesis may not be viable considering how old we think the earth is and how long it takes for mutations to create successful variations over time.
@peckandabushel3065
Жыл бұрын
Bill (and Sam Harris) say the 80% have no right to burn the person at the stake for the good of majority. I say they have no moral position to say that is wrong. Sam Harris et el can't say Hitler was evil without a morality coming from God. The C.S. Lewis quote is spot on. Really like the comment " morality is a non sequitur" meaning the non believer can never use the word morality. They have no bases because all I have to say is I don't believe what you do.
@zionmama150
Жыл бұрын
1:18:21 what he (Bill) is doing, is using other people in the secular world to shape his worldviews. They are his prophets. 😊
@livingmombirth4005
Жыл бұрын
Yeah he has a very faith based approach to life. He just has different prophets, seers and revelatory now.
@nathanpeterson5906
Жыл бұрын
Maybe Bill has better prophets. If the church’s prophets lag so far behind the world in in what criteria do we trust them more?
@zionmama150
Жыл бұрын
@@nathanpeterson5906 Is lagging behind the world somehow better? Especially considering how many countries have hastily retreated trying to undo the dumb choices they made in the name of hastily implemented “progress”?
@zionmama150
Жыл бұрын
1:20:37 what he misses is that God gives information when God wants to. Not on our time table
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
Agreed. His reasoning appeared to be (1) God doesn’t behave the way I think He should so (2) therefore there is no God
@zionmama150
Жыл бұрын
@@shibainferno that’s a great way to put it!
@senorbb2150
Жыл бұрын
I have watched several "theist vs. atheist" debates on youtube. Normally the theist in the debate believes in some kind of evangelistic Christianity and they always use the exact same arguments, i.e. since morality is objective it must come from an independent source which must be God. Jacob merely repeats the arguments of those evangelists, adding nothing, and fares no better than them in this debate with Bill. Mormonism gave Jacob no better ammunition for his arguments than evangelicism gives to Frank Turek or any of the others. As far as the rest of the conversation where Jacob kept repeating that Christianity has led the world in its evolution of human rights, his shallow understanding of history gives me the impression that he has mostly been educated by silly Prager U videos.
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
Jacob harps on Social Darwinism. Dollars to donuts he's a conservative Republican. That he doesn't recognize that he is a Social Darwinist of the worst manner (Laissez-faire capitalism) shows an extreme lack of self awareness. Or, it's just plain deception on his part.
@zionmama150
Жыл бұрын
1:00:15 he’s not open to believing there IS a God and that He has prophets He speaks with…
@scubat5360
Жыл бұрын
I watched until he said "patriarchy". I cant take any of his takes seriously past that.
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
15:01 not sure how this differs from trusting others to speak for God
@Liberty-LLama
Жыл бұрын
Bill asks Jacob "Why cant you answer yes or no?" Also Bill answering almost every question Jacob asks him "yes, also no." This conversation while interesting, hurt my brain. Bill makes absolutely no sense. He has no valid argument at all. Complaining about the church not being right, when he has no absolute concept of right and wrong is insane.
@six1nyne
Жыл бұрын
😂
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
32:24 interesting that “best” still remains undefined
@sarawillett7431
Жыл бұрын
You should try & have this conversation with someone who will actually go to the place you want in regards to eugenics, that would be really interesting, for you & to watch. Although i guess it might get you cancelled, the only people I can think of who will go there are people who are considered “too bad” to talk to.
@wayneorr6748
Жыл бұрын
I am more convinced that Satan is real and I see the power he has on this man. He gives me a gratitude for my testimony of Christ and the restoration of the gospel . I know their is a God we do have choices, and we stand before God and account for them
@alejandrovalenzuela377
Жыл бұрын
Bill’s assertions are a cacophony of logic manifested in absurdity disguised as thoughtfulness. He kept contradicting himself and then stating Jacob didn’t understand him lol no one could logically understand his assertions, they’re simply incoherent. I feel I lost brain cells listening to this. Props to Jacob for enduring to the end.
@confusedwhynot
Жыл бұрын
So was this on Bill Reels podcast??
@123mneil
Жыл бұрын
Yes. He also live streamed it.
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
23:21 interesting he suggests the privilege of living in 2023 allows for an undefined “better” morality or that current society is “better” than hunter-gatherer society without ever defining what “better” is
@shireecox122
Жыл бұрын
Well Bill, within the timeline of evolution, you can count on the human race becoming perfect, in your way of seeing things, in about another 2 million years. Or we could do it God’s way, and get there way faster.
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
Better to become perfect on earth over millions of years than a bunch of polygamists in some nonsensical heaven.
@shireecox122
Жыл бұрын
@@lrsvalentine good luck to you in 2 million years, or not. It’s not really human nature to progress and become perfect, is it? That’s where morals come into play. But I wish you well.
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
And I have better morals than the Mormon god who commanded Joe Smith to marry 14 year old girls.
@ericredd4544
Жыл бұрын
I cannot believe Jacob, as a Mormon and Christian, is attacking Bill's position (45 min mark) with the example of racism. LDS racism destroys the moral superiority/God is the source of our morality argument, and he is oblivious to it while in the midst of his argument.
@hansenjacob1986
Жыл бұрын
Where did society get the idea that slavery and racism was wrong?
@ericredd4544
Жыл бұрын
@@hansenjacob1986 as an absolute, I do not know. But, Jacob you do not know either. The people who claim to be prophets, and that should have known (within Mormonism) failed to back you up with your claim it was god that gave us the idea slavery and racism was wrong. Otherwise, why continue in error with this glaring moral issue for over 150 years when LDS prophets speak to and for God?
@Sayheybrother8
Жыл бұрын
@@hansenjacob1986honestly the racism probably started with groups who just looked and acted differently than another as man migrated across continents. Unfortunately it was made doctrine when the story of Cain was used to justify it in the minds of man. Jacob, racism is not a battle you will ever win in these discussions. In fact it may be the Hiroshima of the churches stance they have all truth. There are too many primary source documents and relatively recent revelations, no pun intended, of how the brethren saw the scriptural proof of slavery and blacks being less than. Too many testimonies of brethren bearing witness it was God who told them the blacks shouldn’t have the priesthood. It’s unfortunate and I hate it but it is what it is and a man who speaks for God wouldn’t err in this way without being struck down if he was truly speaking for God.
@dylanwilliams2202
Жыл бұрын
@@Sayheybrother8 The Priesthood ban was never meant to last and was always meant to be lifted eventually and 5 prophets have said or quoted previous prophets that has said as such. President Brigham Young said that at some future day, black Church members would have all the privilege and more enjoyed by other members. President Wilford Woodruff said "The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have." This was quoted by the First Presidency under George Albert Smith in 1949 in a letter about this. President David McKay said, "It is a practice, not a doctrine, and the practice will some day be changed.” President David McKay has also said, “Sometime in God’s eternal plan, the Negro will be given the right to hold the priesthood.” This was quoted by the First Presidency under Joseph Fielding Smith in 1969 in a letter about this. Yes, the Prophets did say God told them they shouldn't have the Priesthood but he also said they would get it eventually, which happened.
@blakeostler8965
Жыл бұрын
The LDS's racism shows no such thing. What it shows is that God respects free will just as Jacob argued.
@cabarete2003
Жыл бұрын
He seems to be under the false impression...well many actually, but one is that God put us on earth and then tasked himself with making the world better based on our idea of Utopia. We are like the ingredients in a mixing bowl and are going through the mixing stage. And people could make it better if we collectively lived the gospel.
@zionmama150
Жыл бұрын
1:52:32 THIS!!! 😂😂😂 BINGO! Go Jacob!
@lemjwp1756
Жыл бұрын
wow, has there ever been a more clear instance of contrasting the voices of dark and light? Does Reel realize he's made peer-reviewed Science his god?
@lrsvalentine
Жыл бұрын
At least peer reviewed science has never commanded a 38 year old man to marry a 14 year old girl (Or, a 60 year old man to marry a 15 year old girl). I'll take god of science over that disgusting god ANYDAY.
@westonwoodbury3011
Жыл бұрын
Nobody knows why someone is gay, to say they were born that way is just as naive as saying it’s a choice. Complex and unknown many factors. The most consequential is your belief about it.
@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971
Жыл бұрын
2nephi 2:13 And if ye shall say there is ano law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness.
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
Lehi predicted these lines of reasoning 2,600 years ago. Prophetic
@nathanpeterson5906
Жыл бұрын
@@shibainferno or Joseph Smith regurgitated a Methodist teaching he picked up and put in in the mouth of a fictional Lehi. Because the BOM is fiction.
@ericredd4544
Жыл бұрын
I am surpised to see Jacob on your podcast after he went after Patrick Mason for podcasting with John Delhin. Wouldn't the same arguments he used to shame PM apply to himself for being on with you?
@ssf9903
Жыл бұрын
No because Jacob won’t give into falsehoods like Patrick Mason did…
@ericredd4544
Жыл бұрын
@@ChristianRescue If I attach a link it may get deleted, but here you go. Midnight Mormons, "How to make and Anti Mormon podcast"
@wendyfoster5579
Жыл бұрын
Ya but Patrick Mason doesn’t have a platform that I am aware of. Jacob and Bill agreed to both post this.
@ericredd4544
Жыл бұрын
@@wendyfoster5579 Partick Mason was doing an on going "This week in Mormonism" type podcast. Jacob did a take down for PM using Hollands musket talk, along with other apostolic quotes.
@bobwilkinson1217
Жыл бұрын
Yes, if he goes in as a cheerleader/agreeable cohort.
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
1:17:33 The invisible question becomes invisible again 😢
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
1:34:16 cites Article of Faith 8 without realizing
@zionmama150
Жыл бұрын
20:17 humanity would not be good without religion. The only reason it has any goodness it’s because of religions that I’ve come forward perpetuating ideas that have help it survive. The society is in which they for seek religion are the ones that killed themselves.
@45s262
Жыл бұрын
Admitting he doesn't know everything about his system but denies the existence of a superior intelligence beyond his own mortal intelligence..
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
18:09 The invisible question, baby!
@zionmama150
Жыл бұрын
59:00 he can’t 😂 even see the hypocrisy in his statements right here
@ClintRay2578
Жыл бұрын
Is Bill a Sherem 2.0
@zionmama150
Жыл бұрын
1:54:32 he just described the war in heaven 😅
@bobwilkinson1217
Жыл бұрын
Moral laws are as immutable as nature's laws-- metaphysical laws in the universe.
@Sayheybrother8
Жыл бұрын
What moral law is as consistently proven as gravity?
@bobwilkinson1217
Жыл бұрын
@@Sayheybrother8 It is against morality to murder. You notice I did not say "kill".
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
1:45:41 claims humans are special without realizing
@zionmama150
Жыл бұрын
2:00:53 but if God were to appear to him, would he change his mind? He would continue to perpetuate the same questions to God and assume that the world was right and that God was wrong.
@zionmama150
Жыл бұрын
1:03:19 mankind is fallen. And God does the best He can to use us to bring the best out in us… he clearly doesn’t understand the atonement
@a.m.o.3323
2 ай бұрын
God is science! Chaos into order and keeping it that way is God. He’s the perfect chemists, biologist, etc. I guess, since bill knew everything before the church, our “morals” should follow him as a prophet? Anyone notice how he occasionally slips and says, “we” when talking about the church? I’d love for bill to serve in a 3rd world country for 2 years and see if his perspective changes. Until then, I see him as a spoiled brat.
@westonwoodbury3011
Жыл бұрын
Jacob great job, he accused you of wanting it both ways but in fact he did. You really caved on Joseph smith, calling him a lair! Brigham’s lying got pushed unto Joseph. Bill made some reasonable criticism of the church but lost the debate because of it.
@nickallen2288
Жыл бұрын
You cannot logically say that something is 100% subjective while also stating it is 100% true like brother Reel says about racism/slavery. That sentence is a contradiction in terms and complete nonsense. I’d like him much more if he were just honest and say it’s not wrong, it’s just his subjective preferential opinion that it’s wrong.
@medeekdesign
5 ай бұрын
I like Bill’s morality, and yes his moral code is better than Jacob’s.
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
36:25 seems to be at odds with the Prime Directive in 9:35
@shireecox122
Жыл бұрын
For Jacob’s sake…….
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
59:39 such a key moment in trying to pin down whether morality is objective or subjective
@ryanwhipple7703
Жыл бұрын
First off Bill kept saying that science points to “limited free will” not necessarily “zero free will”. Couldn’t even a tiny drop of agency with in each person set off billions of butterfly effects completely altering the course of history, therefore making future outcomes not deterministic? For instance, maybe one small choice of a security guard leads to the capture of Lee Harvey Oswald just before the act and JFK is never assassinated. Times that by a trillion. Second, even if the world was deterministic (which I don’t believe that it is), you admitted yourself that people will behave differently if they believe this. Aren’t you doing the human species a disservice by trying to convince them of determinism since they are more likely to behave properly if they have the illusion of free will? Then again according to you we are all just chemical reactions playing out, so who cares? Determinism is a bizarre and unhealthy view in my opinion, as it strikes out the very meaning and essence of life that is so very apparent to me in the beauty of the world. I believe that we can choose to be a force for good in the world and rise above our genetics, pre-dispositions and situation. Not saying it is easy, but definitely possible. To believe otherwise could lead many people down a path of despair acceptance of an inferior state instead of working hard to change things.
@shibainferno
Жыл бұрын
1:59:59 it’s unfortunate Bill argued against something Jacob wasn’t promoting rather than taking on Jacob’s actual argument
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