Back When I was a crew chief on an old six cylinder Asphalt Modified, Slant Six Chrysler, We made our own intake by using 2x2 square tubing about two feet long with an aftermarket 4bbl intake bolted to that. my goodness, tons of torque! Also I made a custom 904 push button shifted trans with no torque converter, It had a ball valve controlling the trans pump pressure. Super low inertia for lightening quick acceleration off the turns!
@gibbsey9579
4 жыл бұрын
Caterpillar forklifts used the same idea on their transmissions, when the "clutch" was depressed oil pressure was bled progressively back into the transmission. They still had a torque converter though.
@mazcatii
4 жыл бұрын
Look at the mazda factory racing lemans winning 787b 4 rotor. Adjustable intake runners depending on revs, beautiful engineering 👌👏👏👏
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
yes-and early F1 motor had same thing
@Karpo1986
4 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 Alfa Romeo and Lancia had variable induction in their road cars in the 90's, although they had only two different runner lenghts.
@robertokandal
26 күн бұрын
@@Karpo1986 In 1960 already existed that,,,
@JETZcorp
Күн бұрын
Some 2-strokes did the same with their exhausts to change the tuned-length of the expansion chambers. Some jet skis even had variable water injection in the exhaust to change the temperature, which changed the local speed of sound (!!) inside the pipes to alter the powerband.
@muskyelondragon
4 жыл бұрын
Rich, your vids are solid freaking gold brother. Priceless!
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
Glad you like them!
@BustedWalletGarage
4 жыл бұрын
I think it was the “High And Mighty” Ramchargers of the early 1960’s used radiator hose as the intake runners with a huge metal box as the plenum. Some pictures the runners would be so long the carbs were almost above the roofline. Those cars had some cartoonish exhaust too.
@donellmuniz590
4 жыл бұрын
I saw it run on tv, and the megaphone exhaust give it the howl from Hell!! It absolutely BELLOWED!
@donellmuniz590
4 жыл бұрын
The Ramchargers (all young Chrysler engineers, like Tom Hoover) basically invented the tunnel ram, and used this knowledge to design the Sonoramic Commando (lol) long ram intakes, as well as the Max Wedge cross rams.
@xmo552
4 жыл бұрын
Those cartoonish exhaust were tuned also
@albertgaspar627
4 жыл бұрын
you are right, and they used hose so they could keep cutting it shorter and shorter until the quarter mile times increased, and they knew what the last best runner length was. They needed that plenum because unless you use a sequesial port injection, every time the intake valve closes, the air/fuel mix runs back up the runner. If there's a shared plenum, the air fuel mix goes to another cylinder. but with individual runners and no shared plenum, the result is a hazy fog of atomized fuel hanging over the top if you've ever seen a mechanical fuel injector setup idle in the pits. Bruce Crower took it a step further, using different length caliopes on his injectors.
@xmo552
4 жыл бұрын
@@albertgaspar627 Another reason for the plenum is to keep air speed from siphoning the fuel up and out of the carb while moving foward. Look at early drag cars and Bonneville cars. I almost caught my car on fire while test driving and tuning while on the freeway with no air cleaner and no hood. 🔥😂👎 You should see later header designs, like what Smokey Yunick did. Or, the crazy-cool 180 degree and 360 degree headers. That's the tuning I like to read about.
@GUEST-qw4te
4 жыл бұрын
Mr. Holdener..Thank you for actually listening about testing differing lengths and general tpi mods. I posted on another video with suggestions in regards to this.. The fact that you actually did it, just blows me away... It also shows the wave resonance effects something fierce on that first one...just remember Everything in a tpi system is tunable.
@xmo552
4 жыл бұрын
Everything in everything is tunable
@AP-vv1yu
4 жыл бұрын
Damn Richard always comes out swinging with knowledge! 🔥🔥🔥🔥
@MLFranklin
4 жыл бұрын
Excellent work here. I would have loved to do this experiment back when I taught engine lab back at U of MN. This is a perfect example of the concepts taught in the classic IC engine textbook by Taylor & Taylor decades ago. I'm so glad you chose to show it here. Hardcore fundamental stuff. We all love Engine Masters, but the knowledgeable engine guys like your channel just a bit better.
@garyderian4350
4 жыл бұрын
It appears that other resonances, such as plenum volume Helmholz resonance is occurring here. Perhaps attaching the ram tubes in a 180 degree fashion to have equal pulsing in each plenum will provide different or better results. Also connecting the two plenums with a valve will allow different tuning.
@donellmuniz590
4 жыл бұрын
This just proves what Mopar knew 60 years ago, when they designed the long ram manifolds for big blocks in big heavy cars, and short runner cross rams for their Super Stock drag cars. No secret, for an old goat like me, lol.
@RadDadisRad
4 жыл бұрын
I saw a rotary with electronic slides that got shorter at higher rpm and were long at idle. The slide length was set to rpm and throttle opening percentage.
@manitoublack
4 жыл бұрын
Talk about seeing reflected waves in the power curve. Oh and this is exactly why OEM's have sold many intake manifolds with dual length runners. Long for the low end torque, then swaps over to a short runner as the RPM rise. Mostly on 4 and 6 cylinders. Why settle, when you can have both ;)
@GrimReaper528777
4 жыл бұрын
My V8 Audi S4 has that as well. Even seen three stage/runner length intake manifolds on the older timing belt V8 Audi engines. Pretty sure that the older Lamborghini Murcielago 6.2 liter V12 had a three stage intake manifold too.
@greggreg6975
4 жыл бұрын
Almost all new cars have some form of variable intakes.
@donellmuniz590
4 жыл бұрын
That and VVT have completely changed the game. EFI did too, but these things build on that. No wonder modern engines have such a wide powerband and a flat torque curve! If Comp or Isky or Crane were to develop a retrofit VVT system for old-school V8s, sportsman racing and hot rodding would never be the same. And honestly, a simple, rudimentary system could be devised with a variable cam gear, incorporating a clutch or spring with electronic control, based on load data.
@ChevetteWiz
4 жыл бұрын
This brings back memories of my old Formula SAE college days. Back then, I thought intakes were all about flow numbers, but then I realized the importance of Heimholtz Resonance on how to tune the intake plenum, runner length and diameter, and radii. Air flow is fluid like and sound waves/resonance affects the flow of the air going into the engine. Think of it this way, if you had a subwoofer up against a draining kitchen sink, the water doesn't flow as fast as with no sound.
@fokjohnpainkiller
4 жыл бұрын
Any book you recommend on intake design?
@OgamiItto70
4 жыл бұрын
@@fokjohnpainkiller Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust Systems by Phillip H. Smith. Also The Design and Tuning of Competition Engines by the same author. You can get some of the same information from David Vizard's How To Build Horsepower in a less dry format. (This is no exhaustive [no pun intended] list, just a few to get you started. Amazon or your local library would be a resource to try for more.)
@erenzoscroggins8056
4 жыл бұрын
Just gotta love Rich... His Info is always helpful and valuable💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾 what's crazy is I personally know a guy out here in AZ with a 1929 "something car" with 2 long custom intakes that sit on each side of the 350 sbc with edlebrock carbs on top.. I can and will prove it if needed... But great Info Dog
@charliekeel3264
4 жыл бұрын
This is why I have a Hilborn 8 stack EFI on my street car,, great video well done !!!
@keithtobin5369
4 ай бұрын
Thank you Richard for all your testing. Keeps my wheels turning in my brain
@Crysmatic
4 жыл бұрын
you pick the combo that has the most area under the curve in the intended rpm range. It would have been nice to list the exact runner length.
@ryanmalin
4 жыл бұрын
Now you got me looking at intake manifolds going "whaowaahowowowohm"
@lb9gta307
4 жыл бұрын
I recently watched a similar test with an ITB 4AGE. You could hear when the harmonics were working and when they weren't. He also tested straight, 45* bend, and 90* bend trumpets of a similar length to see if that cost power (it did) as well as different opening styles. All real interesting stuff.
@gurjindersingh199
4 жыл бұрын
Garage4age ? I love that guy (no homo)
@kissmyaskew9844
3 жыл бұрын
This guy tests a lot of variables, it's cool stuff.
@rileydrabek6795
4 жыл бұрын
This was awesome! You should test the working man's mods or the hs budget stuff like throttle body spacers, muffler delete, or change to duals and "cai" (but you did that)!
@guidoheeling1179
4 жыл бұрын
ferrari actually has an ajustable intake length on the LaFerrari, that tech is already banned from formula one before they got tu use is, the new gmc 3.0L inline 6 diesel also has variable runner length intakes.
@ReubenHorner
4 жыл бұрын
Most vw engines seem to have flaps that block one intake port per cylinder I think. Acts similar to variable runner length
@michaelangelo8001
4 жыл бұрын
@@ReubenHorner So do those 4.6 Lincoln engines.
@julienboucaron9780
4 жыл бұрын
@@ReubenHorner Those flaps changes the swirl/tumble of the air entering the cylinder for lean combustion. Those flaps are removed in high performance engines.
@Torquemonster440
4 жыл бұрын
My 2018 Tundra has automatic adjustable runners , that vary according to load and RPM. Cool stuff.
@GrimReaper528777
4 жыл бұрын
@@julienboucaron9780 the tumble flaps also prevent super knock during high load low rpm situations like from cruising on the highway and having to go up a hill in the highest gear of the transmission. Most of the time my calibrator will have the tumble flaps just stay open from about 1900 rpms to redline. Plus they help with cold start up because the air swirl causes the fuel to mix better.
@donellmuniz590
4 жыл бұрын
When you think of the engine as an air pump and a complete system, you have to measure from the carb/tb blades all the way to the exhaust exit, wherever that may be (uncorked at least). So the same principles work on headers. Long runner intakes need longer tube headers, short runners need shorter header tubes. One wont work best without the other. I dont quite understand the terms and physics involved, but I understand results.
@xmo552
4 жыл бұрын
If you want to learn, study up on fluid dynamics and tuning flow.
@donellmuniz590
4 жыл бұрын
@@xmo552 I probably should've done that 30 years ago, back when I still read books. Nowadays, if I cant absorb and understand content within 10 minutes, I move on, lol.
@xmo552
4 жыл бұрын
@@donellmuniz590 Yuuuuuup. Well, try a KZitem vid. 👍
@madmod
8 ай бұрын
That 13 inch runner was definitely going back up. Goes to show B heads with the right induction don't do bad for peak power when optemized.
@albertgaspar627
4 жыл бұрын
Focus first on the exhaust system--get something that really clears out the combustion chamber, since you can't burn that exhaust twice. That in itself will create a "Draw" on the intake, and if you tune that to make torque at what RPM you will run, then the ram effect almost acts like "boost"
@ke4drj912
4 жыл бұрын
I would love to see more videos on this topic!
@philbled
4 жыл бұрын
This guy is a legend. Recently discovered the channel and can't stop watching. Really good stuff!
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
thnx and welcome aboard
@davidcunningham00
4 жыл бұрын
I like the 2nd intake runner, sure you dont have all the top end power but that bottom with some on top is a really good setup
@allenhoward9379
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for using ford engines in this video!
@cajunroadwarrior
4 жыл бұрын
Ford actually had a dual runner length manifold on their V6 engines. It was a complex manifold with a trapdoor. By default the engine would be set at the long runners and as soon as the engine crept up in RPM the little trap door would flip to the short runners at high RPM. It wasn't a very reliable system.
@tartus4916
4 жыл бұрын
until ford perfected it with the 1989 ford taurus sho, 3.0L DOHC.
@PoppaSnipe
3 жыл бұрын
@@tartus4916 That would be Yamaha that perfected it. The whole engine in the Ford Taurus SHO 89-91
@Dr_Xyzt
4 жыл бұрын
I never thought I'd see a video like this on KZitem! Wicked. Super informative! Thank you for filming this!
@madmod
4 жыл бұрын
Im really going to need to buy a couple of your books.
@GIGABACHI
4 жыл бұрын
Loved every minute of it, is like Lab Time but I don't have to do any of the heavy lifting, just watch and learn. Thanks and post more variable runner length videos with other engines, I love the variety.👌🏻😎👍🏻
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
will do
@adamarndt7617
4 жыл бұрын
LOVE this! Awesome. Long runners and small & fast long tube headers for max power to 6,000 RPM again!
@icesecurity
4 жыл бұрын
I like having torque on the lower end for street racing, light to light, took all my smog stuff , larger fuel injectors, chip and tune, larger modified exhaust, cold air intake, on my 1986 Corvette, scary torque monster with the long runner length, don't need high speed dangerous stuff.
@michaelangelo8001
4 жыл бұрын
Enjoyed this, as I have put a lot of thought into it in the past. My father used to build custom intakes out of steel for some of his projects. They seemed to get the job done pretty well, but I don't know how he calculated all the dimensions... Probably just by intuition.
@markstopkey4085
4 жыл бұрын
Richard, congratulations on getting into the camshaft business. Thought, design, build and market an intake manifold and cam combo for LQ9 etc for trucks maximizing torque from 1500 to say 4500. I'll buy the first one!
@josep.3364
4 жыл бұрын
Really liked the video, thumbs up! You are probably the 2nd or 3rd person to show a graph instead of the bullshit horse power number in hundreds of videos. btw, there was variable runner length in some engines of the 80's but then it was banned from competition one famous car is the rotary Mazda 787B
@Fljeff7
4 жыл бұрын
I liked the adjustable runner intake on the early mid 90s L35 4.3 very efficient and effective
@timothybayliss6680
4 жыл бұрын
I am surprised that you don't have a 3d printer yet. Lots of even hobby printers will push .065 nylon trimmer line that you can find with glass or Aramid fibre. The benefits of having a printed intake is you can have proper runner taper and gives you so much more freedom in packaging.
@DodgyBrothersEngineering
4 жыл бұрын
or make sections that screw on for quick changes.
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
I have some 3D printed intakes too-the problem is usually heat
@MrChooch84
3 жыл бұрын
Would love to see this performed again with a tapering diameter runners, different shape runners, or a hydroformed running thatr has a surface like a golf ball, just to see if CFM increases... I love the content! Can you do a Volvo Redblock? B230? :)
@mchristr
4 жыл бұрын
For engine geeks this is something we've wondered about. How does this apply to a boosted engine? Should the runners/volume stay relatively small while the boost does the work?
@carlhilliard8846
4 жыл бұрын
I would love to see this also.
@williamkillingsworth2619
4 жыл бұрын
Runner length will have a similar effect on the power curve n/a or boosted. short runner high/ long runner low. Boost pressure is just a measure of resistance. It depends on what’s causing the”most” resistance, again its dependent on you combination of parts, as to whats going to change. Runner area matters, the less area in the runner means more velocity for the same mass of air(how big is the straw), which is beneficial at low engine speed, The velocity helps charge the cylinder at low rpm. But this can begin to be restrictive at higher rpm. Think about valve opening time and how that shortens as engine RPM increases. The more RPM increases the less time you have to shove air into the engine. So a short larger runner with a good sized plenum, is what you want for high rpm turbo power. Do you want a easy way to experience this go get a bunch of straws like a coffee straw and something you can suck a milkshake through and play around with blowing different fluids through them, Air is a fluid. Mazdas 787B 4 rotor race car for 1991lemans season had adjustable intake runner lenghs. The only vehicle I’m aware of with the moving intake manifold. Check it out There is no one size fits all answer, but boost pressure is just a measure of resistance in your system at a specified CFM and rpm. Over all air flow is what u wana pay attention to.
@johnparrish9215
4 жыл бұрын
Every turbo engine he puts on the dyno he runs NA first, you will see that the curves mirror each other in shape. Just look up his other videos.
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
same under boost
@oldleatherhandsfriends4053
4 жыл бұрын
@@williamkillingsworth2619 fluids don't compress
@keithwiebe1787
4 жыл бұрын
Haven't had a chance to watch video yet but here's my observations. I remember perhaps 30 years ago there was these "mini rods" which were 4 cylinder powered tractor pullers who used naturally aspirated 4's and most of them used "long tube" intakes. It makes sense.
@faulstone
3 жыл бұрын
I like what your doing. This is the only one of your videos that I've seen. The one thing I think you might be missing is test for resonance. I think this is one of the biggest reasons why port polishing works. After all even though it's primary purpose is moving air. When it comes down to it. It is pulsed air. And at those engine speeds the pulses create a standing wave. At resonance that standing wave helps you. Especially if it occurs at the entrance to the port.
@richardholdener1727
3 жыл бұрын
do a search for reflected waves
@approachingtarget.4503
4 жыл бұрын
Car craft did this test on a bbc with a mech. Fi system. Found that 13" from valve face to air opening of the stack. Made the most for cinder ramming. This was for individual runners. On a 98 honda vfr 800. The do use a two length running intake. The tall stacks would lift out of the shorter ones at about 10000rpm. A very noticeable change from 10000 up to 15,500. This test doesnt take into account the shared plenum or amount of volume a plenum has on the effect. The first graft showed a very erratic graph line. As the runners got shorter...they leveled off. When you get to the dodge magnum dog house intake. You will find ne of the best designs for runner length and volume. Another amazing pc is the wiend dual tunnel ram.
@DodgyBrothersEngineering
4 жыл бұрын
Interesting results between the early and late engines. Combo 3 on the early engine gave improved torque and hp across the whole rev range, whereas the late engine it was a compromise everywhere. One was clearly better than the factory manifold, the other was a pure compromise.
@marknelson3511
2 жыл бұрын
Richard I know it would be a pain but I’d love to see you take the data you just learned and build a variable length manifold that optimize both top and bottom. It would make a great vid!
@independentassesor2630
Жыл бұрын
That was done years ago with a For 250 Cross flow engine. Was quite impressive. It was controlled by small electric motors increasing the runner length up top with the rpm from 3000 rpm onwards. The torque was very impressive
@zacharyohare6029
Жыл бұрын
Pretty much what many factory intakes do, but obviously size/space restricted. Would definitely be useful to have both options though. Going road racing, pop on the stacks and run with it. Then putting around, swap em out.
@tracywalker5435
4 жыл бұрын
I built one 11 yrs ago on my SBC pickup 67 hp just because of my intake... Top secret intake....
@donellmuniz590
4 жыл бұрын
Why top secret? Who were you hiding the design from?
@michaelblacktree
4 жыл бұрын
When I saw the thumbnail, I immediately thought "Starship Enterprise". 😛
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
Engage
@michaelblacktree
4 жыл бұрын
"Mr Sulu, plot a course for Gapplebees, maximum warp."
@TheNumbers400
4 жыл бұрын
I like the "belt driven" intakes the most :D
@GIGABACHI
4 жыл бұрын
🤣 HAH! That was awesome, here's your well deserved 👍🏻.
@andyharman3022
4 жыл бұрын
I prefer the gas-driven intakes.
@TheNumbers400
4 жыл бұрын
@@andyharman3022 having both is better :D
@danmyers9372
4 жыл бұрын
Back in the 70’s a buddy of mine made his own sheet metal tunnel ram intake manifold for the 350 Chev in his mid engine sand rail. He used like 1 1/4 or 1 1/2” tubing running up to a square(ish) plenum. It totally didn’t work. The fuel just ponded in the plenum under the carb.
@danmyers9372
4 жыл бұрын
The runners on his manifold were around 12” long (or slightly more) as I recall.
@Brock_Landers
3 жыл бұрын
So I remember back in the day my dad rented a Lincoln Mark VIII and it had the 4.6 4 valve and it was pretty damn fast. I also drove one of the OBS Ford Lightnings with a 351 and while it was pretty quick, it wasn't anywhere near as fast as the newer body style Lightning with the 5.4 supercharged. I used to race a modified 2000 Lightning and I had a 1992 Acura Integra with a custom built turbo kit using an old Garrett T3 from a Dodge Daytona 2.2 and it was ALOT of fun. It made 308 whp, but it also didn't weigh much, so it was pretty closely matched to the Lightning on paper. The Lightning came stock with 360 HP, but he had a custom tune, a bigger supercharger pulley, I/H/E, and some slight bolt ons, so he was making around 500 whp, and on the street we were always close, but he would always pull away from me. It was always alot of fun though and we became friends, but I always wanted a Lightning...or a Mark VIII.
@donellmuniz590
4 жыл бұрын
If I was to build my own rat rod (someday!), and hood clearance won't be an issue (no hood!), I'd build the longest manifold I could, and the longest-tubed headers. Cuz I'd be doing burnouts and street cruising, not racing. Besides, it's also about what looks cool.
@madmod
9 ай бұрын
Even with you going into detail explaining how runner length affects power, youve still got people leaving those comments that manifolds won't lose 60+ ft lbs of torque just from runner length despite having hard data right in front of them.
@martinherrington4885
4 жыл бұрын
I would really like to see you mess around with an old caddilac 500 motor and do a mild to wild build up on it and then finish it up with a big bang on it
@donellmuniz590
4 жыл бұрын
Me too!
@minimanadam
4 жыл бұрын
The cobra motors DID have adjustable intake runners . It sat under the manifold and would open at 2500 rpm
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
are you talking about IMRC plates?
@horizoninabucket
4 жыл бұрын
Please, some time, play with adding ports between the two plenums. i.e. One connecting the two in the middle, and one connecting the two at the end (which could eventually be open/closed by the ECU at different RPM ranges) i.e. Like Mazda's KL motor (i.e. the V6 used in the mid 90's Ford Probe). Would love to see the gains actually quantified.
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
I did that
@micmalone6722
4 жыл бұрын
I think you just had a million dollar idea. If you can figure out how to do an adjustable runner while you are going through the power band that would be awesome!
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
lots out there already doing it
@thebigpicture2032
4 жыл бұрын
Richard you’re amazing! Some great info there. Thanks for posting!
@teamvoxracing2192
4 жыл бұрын
I'd LOVE to see this test on a 4.3 v6 there's only 2 different intakes available, dual plane vortec, or dual plane non vortec. Unless you can find one of the old nascar intakes. I'd be interested in seeing what gains a single plane would have on my little nitrous 4.3
@DefenistrationAlley
4 жыл бұрын
I'm almost done with an EFI-converted Edelbrock #2114 intake on the 4.3 in my '97 s10 and I'm excited to test it out. I don't think the good Vortec heads have any other intake available. They call this intake a "dual plane" but the runners are definitely set up different than a v8 dual plane, it just has the left and right bank divided at the plenum. I'm pretty sure Richard did a video recently using this intake with a later model 4.3, carbureted of course. I'd personally love to see a "big bang" test with EFI and turbo boost on a stock bottom end and see what it can take if tuned properly.
@DefenistrationAlley
4 жыл бұрын
PS what a cool project for a 4.3! Subscribed.
@teamvoxracing2192
4 жыл бұрын
@@DefenistrationAlley awesome thanks!! I subscribed back 🙂
@9psi
4 жыл бұрын
Have you ever done a similar test but vaying the runner diameter by dropping in sleeves?
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
not with drop in sleeves but good idea
@alloyspeed1889
4 жыл бұрын
I was thinking the same thing.
@ChevetteWiz
4 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 Radius entry and/or increasing the runner diameter helps gain power back with long runner intake manifolds, but not always.
@dug8531
3 жыл бұрын
I tested a method similar to this on an old motorcycle once. Slid velocity stacks up and down on the top side of carbs only(downdraft style). Long=low end short= top end
@sorryociffer
3 жыл бұрын
@@dug8531 I have a set of these for my V twin Aprilia... vacuum operated.
@GrimReaper528777
4 жыл бұрын
I made a calculation to figure out runner length for intake manifolds and exhaust headers based on cam duration, rpms, and the speed of sound at different temperatures for resonance tuning. This video really makes me want to test it out. Could even get fancy and make it have multiple resonance points at different runner lengths for different rpm points like a tri-y/4-2-1 set of headers.
@jsomething2
4 жыл бұрын
I keep hoping we get to the point we can 3d print intakes and see all kinds of cool things. a tpi style intake with a straight down short runner in the middle with valves to open would be very cool.
@GrimReaper528777
4 жыл бұрын
@@jsomething2 as long as you have the money to play with go nuts and please keep me informed!
@jsomething2
4 жыл бұрын
I do not, I don't even know what you'd print with. I've searched and found a few that used pla for prototypes but it would last in a running engine. I don't think home 3d printing is there yet
@GrimReaper528777
4 жыл бұрын
@@jsomething2 yeah I am a simple man so I would probably just cut out aluminum flanges to weld already pre-cut aluminum pipes plus a collector to. The 3d printers and scanners have supposedly come down in price a lot so I might look into getting one.
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
Very cool!
@button-puncher
4 жыл бұрын
Very cool to see length changes in action. Talking about intakes, I'd love to see the performance difference of running a turbo bare vs using a bellmouth on the inlet. In theory, by running it bare, that hard edge causes a 15-25% flow restriction. I was just watching Finnegan's twin turbo boat videos and it kills me whenever I see a bare turbo intake. You're losing potential power and it's a cheap fix!
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
I don't think the change in flow is 25%, but I have run radiused entries on turbos and blower-they work well. They add flow best when near the flow limit of the turbo or blower. Finnegan is awesome
@button-puncher
4 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 I love the Roadkill guys. Please get them a Dodge Turbo II for their Rampage! As for the intake, it's really surprising. You wouldn't think so but it can actually be that much of a restriction. I'm not an engineer but I work in a building full of them and have learned quite a bit. The hard edge creates turbulence disrupting the flow. A radiused intake gets the closest to laminar flow, 97% efficient. Pipe with a 13 degree taper is 94%. Short pipe, hard edge is 82% efficient, Long pipe, hard edge is 72% efficient. Do a search for "Eclipse Combustion Engineering Guide pdf" and check out page 4. I'd be interested to see how much the boost perks up with a bare vs bellmouth turbo inlet. I'm guessing that an anti-surge compressor housing won't be as efficient as one with a smooth inlet. Thanks again for all that you do!
@Taluvian
4 жыл бұрын
Do what Ferrari did, make the runner variable with RPM. Tune them with a map, have electronic system that adjusts to best length for the current RPM.
@okjd159
4 жыл бұрын
My father wrote his Masters Thesis about this exact problem in 1951. I have a pdf copy if you have a place I could upload it to.
@richardprice5978
4 жыл бұрын
Did he hang out with the the ramchagers/work for Chrysler corporation of gmc ?? If so thank you ☺️ to your dad as most of the information that I’ve learned is from older hot roders and dodge explaining how the 1950-70’s max wedge 🧀 engines 30” inch long runners work
@jordanwaughtal7649
4 жыл бұрын
I can upload it to my server. Email it to me. jordan@waughtal.rocks
@donellmuniz590
4 жыл бұрын
That was a forward thinking young man in 1951! Most cars on the road at that time still ran flatheads of one kind or another, the only overheads were the Caddy, Olds, and Hemis, all brand new then. I think on the flatheads, the block itself was such a choke point, the manifold would hardly matter.
@jlda1887
4 жыл бұрын
I'd kill to read that thesis...
@okjd159
4 жыл бұрын
@@jlda1887 Do you have a throw away email, I could send it.
@ralfbond258
4 жыл бұрын
sheet steel & sheet aluminum alloy make great DIY intake manifolds..
@donellmuniz590
4 жыл бұрын
Back in the 50s, the Crower U-fab was just two long tubes and two intake "adapters", for lack of a better word. The runners were just hoses that you cut to length and clamped down!
@guidoheeling1179
4 жыл бұрын
this is awsome!!! this is something i always wondered
@halldorra
4 жыл бұрын
GM did experiment with this in the Opel Omega Lotus headed 3.0 six in 1986,they used a variable runner length manifold
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
Did they use it on the Carlton?
@halldorra
4 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 Hi yes it was actually a 3.6 and it was called Opel Omega in Germany,Vauxhall Lotus Carlton in UK,it was a popular joyriders car next to the Xr4 Turbo Ford Sierra
@Marc_Wolfe
Жыл бұрын
Now DIY something like the Isuzu used on the 6VD1 engine (like 2001 Rodeo). Vacuum solenoid for secondary throttles. even if secondaries stick open, it doesn't run away.
@melbrooks5816
4 жыл бұрын
pretty sure Yamaha had constantly variable intake lengths on some of their performance motorbikes. They also did a lot of intake/head work for other car companies
@ryanmalin
4 жыл бұрын
But how? I dont think its possible.
@garyhowe88
4 жыл бұрын
@@ryanmalin it's easily possible, was a hill climb car here in the uk that had it.
@DodgyBrothersEngineering
4 жыл бұрын
@@ryanmalin Ford in Australia did it on their production line 6 cylinder cars for a few years.
@garyhowe88
4 жыл бұрын
@@DodgyBrothersEngineering continuous? Or just two stages?
@DodgyBrothersEngineering
4 жыл бұрын
@@garyhowe88 I'm not a Ford fan, so I know they did it but never really went too deeply into it. I was told it was continuous but I suspect it was just two stage. I can't see it being fully adjustable. It was quite a while ago, like 20 years ago.
@Justls1v8parts
4 ай бұрын
Just found this awesome love the indepth knowledge for me long Runners suits my car and my needs more tourqe
@pgtmr2713
4 жыл бұрын
Well look, if you're going to build one you should make it adjustable. You can make your own rpm based controller with an Arduino, open source and $10. Easy to learn, no joke. You don't need dual runners either, like early SHOs and MR2s had. You can simulate runner length. Start with 2 intake boxes 1 for each bank. Fold one bank over on top of the other, they will be offset but runner length is equal. Then, connect the 2 intake boxes at the far end, (far from the throttle.) Then another tube connecting the 2 intake boxes in the middle of the intake. Inside each of the tubes you have a vacuum controlled flap that blocks flow, doesn't have to seal perfectly. At low rpms all the cylinders breath from the Throttle body side, mid rpms the far valve opens up allowing the 2 banks to pull air from the TB side AND from each other at the far end, High rpms both valves open, each cylinder can pull from a larger volume and 3 directions effectively making it a shorter path. Visual aid Mazda KL v6 intake comparison. kzitem.info/news/bejne/zoyZqYiXp5Nlqaw Side note: If you're boosting or supercharging there is no benefit to a staged intake.
@mr.know_it_all
4 жыл бұрын
Pretty cool test, the only thing is, you should explain how this would benefit really well in wide open drag racing. For a street car from stop light to stop light, it’s not very effective. Keep up the great vids. It would really cool to see a video, based on different hone hatch patterns and grits. One engine with X and another engine with Y and so forth. I see lots of claims on hone hatch and grit, unless there is vids out there already:
@crazyDIYguy
2 жыл бұрын
I always target that low end grunt, I don't really drive in the super high revs. Longer runners all the way 👍
@alexsale1569
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for another modular video
@sam_s_
4 жыл бұрын
What would happen if every other cylinder had an intake runner and header that was turned for bottom end power and the other half of the cyclenders were tuned for top end power? Would you get the best of both worlds? I always wondered the same thing with 2 strokes. What would happen if you took a Banshee and had one cyclender ported for bottom end and put on a bottim end expansion chamber. Then port and pipe the other cyclender as a top end screamer. It would be cool to see.
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
I did that test with the Fast adj intake on the big LS3 intake test
@TurboJohn74
4 жыл бұрын
Always wanted to see the results of various lengths and styles
@martykath4427
4 жыл бұрын
Honda f1 motors a few years back had servo motors adjusting velocity tube lengths with a throttle valve at the base of each one
@AndyFromm
4 жыл бұрын
Build & test a long tube equal length collector like header.. (edit: as intakes, equal length long tube intake header with collector and no plenum.)
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
I've built lots of adj headers too
@AndyFromm
4 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 i meant for on the intake side, sorry for not being clearer.
@GrimReaper528777
4 жыл бұрын
@@AndyFromm I want to do that on my cars. Basically the custom intake manifold will be headers in reverse to suck in the air more effectively.
@Deep42Thought
4 жыл бұрын
26B adjustable runner length ITB's with pop up up and down headlights motors
@Phil-rs5wl
4 жыл бұрын
Should try to run shorter runner in the back and increase height as you get towards the throttle body. On equal length runners with the throttle body at the front the rear runner is over twice as long as the first one.
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
The plenum is not runner length
@brandona4618
4 жыл бұрын
Im scared of some of these. I STILL to this day continue cut the eddy 4.6 2v manifold in half and fill in the gap to fit the intake on a 5.4l engine. Hopefully jordan gets those hardballers on the market soon. Would really save me a ton of argon and time
@abec666
4 жыл бұрын
What a great video. The plenum size(plates) comparisson should be very good video too.
@cheyennedogsoldiers
4 жыл бұрын
Personally I'd go with the better lower end because everything I've built is for street use and it just makes for a better daily. And yes I've ran high RPM motors but find them to be a pain in the ass for daily driving.
@TractorWrangler01
4 жыл бұрын
I wonder what would happen if your intake runners were larger by the carb and narrowed down to the intake port size so you would get more and more velocity as the RPM increased while still maintaining the pressure effect of a short runner down low. Would you get a smoother less erratic torque and HP curve with less loss on the botton without sacrificing top end power?
@Dr_Xyzt
4 жыл бұрын
It becomes a lot easier to pick what intake you want when you look at your overall combination. Look at your valvetrain setup. Is your big block spintron tested to run non-stop at 7700 RPM? No? Maybe, 6500? Well, write that down, so you can look at your transmission. For example, if you run a T56 tremec where the gears are 2.97, 2.10, 1.46, 1.0, and .74, When you shift at 6100, the RPM is gonna land at around 4200. That lets you keep your setup durable enough to not beat up the valves. --If you're gonna do some drag racing, then you you want your setup to be as strong as possible from 4100 to 5800. That last 300 RPM are useless, because you're gonna shift there. -- What if you make a street car? Are you really gonna down shift from 5th to 1st to grab 4600 RPM and pass someone? No! 5th to 2nd is more like it. So, you'd want the 3800-5500 RPM range to be more your thing. Grab 2nd, lay down the law, and 3rd is in the powerband anyway. -- What if you're running a manual valve body automatic with a low stall converter, and you just want it to respond better? Go as low as you can!
@The_R-n-I_Guy
4 жыл бұрын
I only street drive my car and I never rev very high, so I guess a long runner would be best for me
@richardprice5978
4 жыл бұрын
Most of my stuff stays below 4 grand RPMs 80% of the time even if it can rev to 6-8 grand before hitting redline and the new RB v8 stroker ( 4.5 crank stock 4.25 bore ) mopar engine I’m putting together isn’t setup for HP as diesel like torque curves are good enough and modern 6 or 7 manual transmission and rear end gearing work so well together and is more realistically useable day to day
@TommyboyGTP
4 жыл бұрын
I think the newer style engines with variable runner lengths is the way to go.
@michelcote
10 ай бұрын
Pick the one that has the most area under the curve
@fredred8371
4 жыл бұрын
The imrc valves were ment for different runner length in the manifold
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
IMRC doesn't change length-it stops flow from 1 port-makes the port effectively smaller
@franksdg125
4 жыл бұрын
The factory intake with plates would be adjusting through the rpm range. By removing them it eliminated that but wouldn't they adjust to rpm/load
@evillancer4580
4 жыл бұрын
any tests on runner area/ diameter or a tapered runner?
@richardholdener1727
4 жыл бұрын
taper is harder to do-but made easier with 3D printing
@richardprice5978
4 жыл бұрын
Does the angles of entry on the runners from the cross ram intake planning to the intake of the cylinder head port make a big difference or not really?? ( like having it go straight in like most stack injection vs 2 or 3 90* bends or a U mandrel bend in and out of the cylinder flanges to the intake plenum and of course everything is port matched because obviously that makes turbulence which I don’t think 🤔 ever works to your advantage to make higher hp or torque ) The reason im asking questions is I’m planning on making a variable length runner with flaps ( 🤔 of trying to have 2 to 3 different stages so I have lowered end , middle and higher end torque by folding the runners on top of each other ( 🥖 like kneading bread dough or making candy 🍬 ) with stepper motors ( my Version of vanos and or Gm’s DBW Throttlebody ) ( still will work with other ways like toggle switches or vacuum/boost canisters but the general setup is way different from mine ) controlling too open up a different set of intake runners ) inside like the ford SHO v6 aluminium intake that some people Polish up. mixed with the 1960’s max wedge 🧀 mopar engines longer 30” runner intake / Nelson racing engines / Edelbrock intake Cross ram with a built in super chiller running a/c cooling at @ -10 f maximum capacity ( R744 instead of R12 refrigerant ) ( might never see it though and be wishful thinking 💭 that I get sub 0 f cooling on a 60+ F day and actually need M100 spray as antifreeze on the HX air side ( water side already has automotive antifreeze in it, 1-3 gallon total loop sizing with different 5~G main water to air loop to shed most of the boost heat way away from the front of the intake but after the low mounted turbos ) with higher humidity if at all🤷🏻♂️ We see ) it’s for my 440/426 hemi block platform was working on a b deck but it’s dead 💀 and this one is easier to build into a foe hemi it’s a or hot rod and NASCAR trick you might know about Richard. That cobra 🐍 intake picture you chose for the thumb nail is one funny 😂😂😂 looking part as I genuinely laugh at loud and thought 💭 what the hell are you up to now Richard after watching the video Look 👀 like it works but it’s goofy 🙃 cartoonish as all get out never seen anyone running one like that in my lifetime the closest thing I’ve seen is high and Mighty ramchagers/stack intakes but that’s straight up or in a cross ram folded flat with the ground not 120~* pointed out wards ( and obviously not across ram ) and 2-4 feet up from the rest of the engine. Would having variable exhaust runners work the same way as the intake side of the engine system?? I can’t get it to work on the project engine I’m working on right now with the turbos but maybe some one smarter than me in the future can or this will be helpful information for me and others in the future as I know that there’s a difference between log and longer fixed runner length exhaust as in the other videos of yours Richard and on the internet/real life information available to me and others
@Sir.VicsMasher
4 жыл бұрын
Should rig up a sliding runner design like that 4 rotor race engine.
@4_700Melnikov
4 жыл бұрын
Hi, would be interested to know how long runnes can be when power start drops down in middle rpm, were is the limit when runners is to long Thanks for the videos, it's very nice👍
@The9meister
4 жыл бұрын
This was good, some sports motorcycles have ecu adjustable induction tubes from factory.
@baloneyjusticecheezedog
3 жыл бұрын
I feel like the thing you should be doing with this is doing profiles on a bunch of different engines see if you can find some kind of data correlation. I also be interested to see what does the intake runner diameter do to your numbers... It seems like you never really explain this in the video... so I am wondering if after it clears the size of the valves, does it not make sense to make it bigger or what not.. Whatever the case, this might be a good fallow up content video, even if the topic is short.
@zuestoots5176
4 жыл бұрын
I have a 4.6l 4v in a 97 Grand Marquis. it puts down an easy 310 to the tire. Its got Some bolt-ons Its my "Poor mans Marauder" It should put down more but the 2.73 rear gear kills some power. It'll get about 28mpg at 65mph though.
@deanstevenson6527
4 жыл бұрын
Peak power is about making the most hp for the least rpm. Cubic inch displacement times rpm divided by hp equals Aspiration Index. The lower the figure, the more efficient the engine is as a power producer. The Repco 3 liter 1966 Formula 1 championship engine designer Phil Irving and the AVESCO Holden Commodore engineer Larry Perkins used that method to find beneficial power peaks. As Larry said. 460 hp at 6800 rpm beats 462 hp at 7000 rpm in a 305 V8. 305 times 6800/ 460 is an AI of 4508. 305 times 7000/462 us an AI of 4621. The lower the AI, the greater the power per rpm. Phil Irving and Larry Perkins upset even more people off the race track than they did with Championship winning cars. Jack Brabham said you wanna win with the least speed advantage. On the dyno, its the same. On torque, midrange is maximised by bank to bank interchange like the Honda PGM FI or TVIS Toyota systems. On my old in line sixes, the intake plenumb doesnt have to be a fixed 50 percent...you can vary it by volume, not length if you combine twin runner logs with a vacum operated change point. This is how the Broad Band Resonance Ford Barra intake worked. Variable total Volume is then the next commodity, not just intake runner length. All that third, forth, fifth and seventh wave if the seventh wave stuff...you fix it Honda style by acoustic responabce boxes which add volume and help an engine cope with in and off throttle.
@homefront3162
3 жыл бұрын
Very creative! ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
@kevinmcneeely7277
Жыл бұрын
A Volvo redblock would be great. i look at this as my 2.3 is 1/2 of this v8 but our heads diffently not as good. But I thiink same concept applies.
@Ricky-manic
3 жыл бұрын
Should make a supercharger intake for a GM 3.9L V6 not alot of intakes for that not like the 3.8L V6
@robhudson6133
4 жыл бұрын
Great video Richard How much do find plenum volume to effect power I've always seen best results when air flow is even to all cylinders not always an tubular plenum design Thankyou as always
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