In my profession, which is computer programming, I learned that it is virtually impossible to spot you’re own mistakes (aka bugs), even when you have your nose right on it. That’s is why you need at least one other person to go over it to check it, and this one will likely spot it right away. It’s amazing.
@Arikayx13
3 жыл бұрын
I was just thinking about this, I wonder if having a second set of eyes on all preflight checks just to make sure one isn’t accidentally skipped would be helpful.
@jandejong2430
3 жыл бұрын
I always liked to print my source code and read it with coffee in my rocking chair, pencil in hand. Works well to simulate the second pair of eyes.
@jerseyshoredroneservices225
3 жыл бұрын
Tired eyes that have been scanning for a problem such as a missing semicolon will never spot It but fresh eyes will spot it as if it were highlighted in bright orange
@stevehammond7485
3 жыл бұрын
I was in that business for about 40 years. Finding my mistakes was usually done as I explained what was/is/should be happening. That's also why we had code walkthroughs.
@slidey1788
3 жыл бұрын
As a cnc machinist who writes my own programs, I concur with this entirely.
@DMBall
2 жыл бұрын
In retrospect, according to the NTSB, Mr. Brown was incorrect in saying the control lock made it impossible to taxi the aircraft; nor was the trim switch mis-rigged. Just pilot error.
@banjo2019
3 жыл бұрын
Value of this video: Understanding some of the possible circumstances of a fatal accident. Reinforcing the importance of inspections. Understanding a bit more about trim in this plane I am not familiar with. I’m listing these out to express my appreciation for these videos as a student pilot.
@unlisted773
3 жыл бұрын
Well said!
@SeaMonkey137
3 жыл бұрын
Smart idea. The highest form of respect you can give an accident pilot is to learn something from the accident. Best of luck on your training.
@rickutermoehlen2726
2 жыл бұрын
All so true but FIRST thing ya do is reduce power on a pitch up like this..
@thomashudson4489
3 жыл бұрын
Student here (59 hrs). Because of the recent reversed trim accidents, my preflights now include standing outside the a/c and working the trim wheel to make certain the tab goes the right way.
@cgirl111
3 жыл бұрын
My dad always used a laminated sheet of paper with the pre flight written on it. He would grease pencil check marks as he went through it. I've never seen another pilot use a written check list, I'm sure there are some but it's rare in my experience.
@cooperparts
3 жыл бұрын
Most plane don't have a high tek trim system something I would not be concerned with
@JediOfTheRepublic
3 жыл бұрын
I’m surprised people have not been doing this from the start.
@JediOfTheRepublic
3 жыл бұрын
@@cooperparts doesn’t matter, you check the trim on any rental. You have no idea if it’s reversed. A 10 sec check is worth it.
@cooperparts
3 жыл бұрын
You will know in 300 feet if your trim is way off also I do not take off like he did in the video so if something is wrong I will know and yes I do fly extra330 after 800 1000 feet you can crank it up but not right off the ground the second the nose popped up it would of been shut down like they say bold pilots and old pilots and I am getting to old pilot that stunt flys it was in the controls and off the ground you have options in the air not as many lot of runway in front of that plane he was hotdoging and a problem arose
@LindysEpiphany
3 жыл бұрын
Its so upsetting that someone who flew so many hours in some of the most extreme conditions lost his life flying this little plane. It really brings attention to the fact that no matter who you are, what you have flown and where you have flown it, each flight has potential to be the last one! Just because you've successfully flown for 50 years there's no guarantee. The only possible prevention is to be over-vigilant each and every flight! Always complete the entire checklist and be sure repairs are done properly. No such thing as too vigilant when flying! RIP Snort, I hope your heaven has every plane you love to fly!
@rickcottrell535
3 жыл бұрын
I remember a quote attributed to Bob Hoover in which he stated that the Piper Cub was the safest airplane ever built, and it could "just BARELY kill you!" Unfortunately, the devil is in the details, and even little details can have serious consequences.
@ghorn3136
2 жыл бұрын
It's possible he did not respect an airplane"so simple"... And treated it carelessly.
@alanmydland5210
2 жыл бұрын
Shit happens
@razor75250
2 жыл бұрын
@@ghorn3136 snort would never do that!! He was my group commander at NAS Oceana. I knew him very well for mamy years.
@enshk79
2 ай бұрын
There’s simply very very little room for error. You could have accumulated a million miles on a hundred different planes, but all it takes is one little mistake.
@chickenringNYC
2 жыл бұрын
Sooooo, it was the control lock
@johami614
3 жыл бұрын
Super job as always, Juan. I just watched the video yesterday where you theorized that the controls were locked. Coming back the next day with new information is top notch. Nothing but facts and integrity from everything I’ve seen you do, Juan. The world could use more like you. Keep up the excellent work!
@HoundDogMech
3 жыл бұрын
I've done many many Owner assisted annuals and unassisted annuals. A couple of the unassisted ones were real cause for concern. Had a C182 in for annual and upon pick up found that the front seats had been switched now because the Adjustable seat was on the right I noticed it immediately when I sat in the left or pilots' seat. Same Owner different Plane different shop. When we went to pick up the plane naturally the logs weren't ready but every thing was done and ready to go. On the preflight found only 1 screw on all the inspection covers and panels. Found a bac of screws on a workbench with a tag with the N Number on it. Inspect inspect inspect after any maintenance or others flying your plane.
@larrybe2900
3 жыл бұрын
I have no reason to suspect anyone's motives but with the video why did no one be proactive with a fire extinguisher? Is there a protocol not to advance to the craft?
@deerhunter7482
3 жыл бұрын
One Man ran to the scene and the others were unconcerned, sad world we live in .
@kamikaze6363
3 жыл бұрын
@@larrybe2900 Yeah there seemed to be a distinct lack of urgency from almost everyone on the tarmac.
@kkiwi54
3 жыл бұрын
@@deerhunter7482 I guess they realised that the impact was unsurviveable and then when they noticed the flames may have thought it would blow up. In other words perhaps they didn't want to endanger themselves for no reason :/
@matthewgroff433
3 жыл бұрын
@@larrybe2900 Most, if Not all airports have S.O.P.'s regarding what to do in case of an incident, and may state Only Certain personnel are to respond to an incident. Also if they were "airline" personnel they may not have known what the airport's policies are regarding incidents and/or may have limited training. Hopefully that answers your question.
@mystictraveler8022
3 жыл бұрын
I retired from the USAF several years ago after 26 years of active duty. (I was not a pilot). I remember reading a USAF publication regarding a C-141 doing a night takeoff from (I think) McGuire AFB. Tower personnel were watching the Starlifter as it accelerated down the runway. When it became airborne, it was observed to go into a very high angle of climb. The aircraft continued to increase it's climb angle and to all watching it was apparent the Starlifter was just seconds from a power-on stall. Then unexpectedly, the aircraft turned on its side at a high angle of bank and began turning in tight circles above the airfield. As it flew in a circle it was gaining altitude. (Tower personnel reported it was difficult to see the aircraft except for the navigation lights). The aircraft continued circling, it eventually leveled off several thousand feet up and only then reported MayDay. The aircraft returned to base safely and everyone was ok. Later investigation revealed a "run away trim" problem on the elevators. The pilots were able to save the aircraft only because they had the presence of mind to put the aircraft on its side BEFORE it stalled. This allowed the aircraft to keep flying. While the aircraft was in the midst of this emergency, the flight engineer was able to access the trim switch and rip away its wiring. I believe that is what was said at the time. All this to say....is this a suitable solution for private pilots in smaller aircraft? Ie., uncommanded high angle takeoff you immediately put the aircraft on it's side and begin circling rather than just continuing the climb until you stall out? IF I were a pilot, I think I'd definitely consider it. But, I suppose you would have to train for this until the response becomes automatic. You would not have time to think about it when it was occurring. Perhaps Juan knows of this incident and might remember some of the facts more accurately than I do. This is incident is very similar to the comment and scenario described by Manny Puerta in an earlier post.
@wendyvic4046
2 жыл бұрын
The problem there is, as the bank angle increases so does stall speed. In other words, if the aircraft is already at or near stall speed, increasing the bank angle will only accelerate that condition.
@zachmulligan11
2 жыл бұрын
@@wendyvic4046this is correct assuming positive G is left on the wing. If the wing is unloaded towards 0 G and the bank is started the nose will come down without stalling. Pilot performed a nose high unusual attitude recovery and saved the day.
@FlyingAceAV8B
Ай бұрын
@@zachmulligan11you are absolutely correct. You just let the nose come down on it own. I do this all the time in a military trainer for some of the advanced flights on the syllabus. It will achieve the same result in a large airplane.
@lylesmith1894
3 жыл бұрын
I was working for Kal-Aero, Kalamazoo, Michigan in the early 1980's as an A&P/IA. The Air Zoo flew in the local airshow for the first time the "Flight of the Cats", that is ALL Grumman Cats were in the air. Dale of course was the driver in the Tomcat. Amazing formation of history. We Salute! Captain Dale "Snort" Snodgrass...Fair Winds and Following Seas. You served your country with honor and courage.
@toodle171
3 жыл бұрын
His life will have meaning to anyone who gets to know how competent he was and yet this still happened.
@BarryAir
3 жыл бұрын
im a 70 year old retired commercial pilot with over 11,000 hours and I put my t shirt on backways most mornings
@toodle171
3 жыл бұрын
@@BarryAir God bless you! Keep on my man, let the youngins know that being checked over is no shame and we will have lived a worthy life.
@charlesglandon7840
3 жыл бұрын
I'm not a pilot and have never flown in a small aircraft, I believe every pilot should watch your reports of the tragic crashes. It could save a life. Keep reporting all the things you report on.
@MrDLRu
3 жыл бұрын
Lot of brainiac know-it-alls out there flyin', that the problem. Don't know how to get the rubber to the road when it matters most. Just look at twin engine pilots that have augered in recently. The most critical situation at take-off, especially so with twin engine plane, 1 engine fails, and no if, ands, or buts, must level off and turn to good engine side, to gain air speed and not stall bad engine wing, but none of them did that. They do just opposite of that and I not even a pilot. Watching all these video's has made me more scared to fly than ever. I especially like the AirBus flight with one pilot pushing forward on stick and other pulling back on stick at full throttle. They flat stalled that plane for 3 1/2 minutes into ocean..Scary stuff right there.
@Airplane_Willy
3 жыл бұрын
This accident is a real shame. I always said to other pilots in my charter department and students alike, you never know when something is going to happen to you. Those of us that have had potentially fatal things happen to us are the lucky ones. It doesn't take much and you just don't know how you're going to react to something unless you've been in some life or death situations before. When I was first flying VFR freight charter in a Lance, I had the seat go all the way back on rotation (I was empty going out to load the freight at another airport). Even at 6'3", I could barely reach the yoke. Thankfully I had enough sense to not grab it. I also checked the trim before every flight, even if I was on the way back home after being on the ground for only an hour. Also, the Lance and Saratoga series are pretty nose heavy, so the abrupt change in CG didn't have that much of an effect. Just happened to be after the aircraft stabilized in a climb that I could grab onto the sidewall and pull myself forward. I think things like this happen a lot more than most people realize, and the ones that are unlucky or the circumstances were just wrong when the event happened, are guys like Snodgrass. I feel terrible for his family and friends. Have an amazing career like this guy had, not to mention his service to the country and in 30 seconds it can be lights out permanently.
@einzelganger1049
3 жыл бұрын
Training, experience and common sense is what will keep you alive. Luck has nothing to do with it. Oh and use the damn checklist.
@Airplane_Willy
3 жыл бұрын
@@einzelganger1049 Luck actually has a lot to do with it. I suppose I'm using luck and circumstance interchangeably, but it has everything to do with it. Wrong place, wrong time.
@einzelganger1049
3 жыл бұрын
@@Airplane_Willy In your world.
@mannypuerta5086
3 жыл бұрын
Without being one of the guessers as to the probable cause, I can contribute a related scenario. Back a long time ago, when flying civilian Herc’s, we developed a scenario in the simulator where runaway trim occurred in both pitch and yaw. We found that if we did have uninterrupted runaway up trim to the stop we could roll into a 45 degree bank, lowering flaps as speed decreased, and because of the normal back pressure required the airplane was flyable with full nose up elevator trim. Of course, in reality we would never allow the trim to run that far, but it was a good training scenario for the crews. As long as you had fuel you had time to trouble shoot and resolve the unresolved elev trim issue while in a controllable, banked turn. The airplane was unflyable with wings level. I’m not saying rolling into a steep bank right after takeoff in that airplane would be the solution, but the concept, tested in one’s own aircraft, might be something to explore. Certainly, keeping the wings level in that situation is not an option. Admittedly, the entire event happened extremely quickly with minimal chance for recovery for even someone with Snort’s experience. Whether related to this or not, my mantra just prior to each takeoff, remains: FLAPS, FUEL (fuel selector, mixture, boost/fuel fuel pump(s), TRIM as a final check before beginning my takeoff roll. Obviously, this is in addition to a proper Before Takeoff Checklist being accomplished. It is not a replacement.
@johncox4273
3 жыл бұрын
Manny, Exactly the procedure I was thinking of. We practiced a runaway up pitch trim after take off in our Learjet and Falcon Sims, and rolling into a steep bank works. One can then disconnect the primary pitch trim and engage the secondary trim, and get things back under control. Of course I'm not that familiar with this aircraft's trim system, and by all accounts Dale was an excellent pilot, very experienced in all kinds of aircraft, so I'll be very interested as to the cause. Always sad to loose a brother aviator. One other thing. I always assumed that any aircraft coming out of maintenance needs an extremely thorough preflight, to include all the control surfaces. I went so far as to make up a written "Post Maintenance Checklist" which took me well over an hour to complete. Can't be too careful.
@mannypuerta5086
3 жыл бұрын
@@johncox4273 Good for you on the post-maintenance preflight. Maintenance induced failures can certainly be an issue. I don’t take anything for granted, either. The other thing I might mention is a go around from a full nose up trim, full flap, short field approach in a 185 at sea level. There is usually no electric trim, so if you are solo you’re in for a struggle. I train to only add 25” of manifold pressure (to reduce the pitch up moment), flaps to 30 or 20, push like hell and trim. It’s quite an exercise and an eye-opener if you’ve never done it before.
@gzk6nk
3 жыл бұрын
I read somewhere of a DC3 carrying heavy cargo which slipped back on take off, Both pilots were JUST able to keep control against the aft CG but not for long before their strength ran out, so they rolled it into a steep turn once high enough and that gave them time to move the cargo forward again and restore the CG. Also, on Concorde line training with first-time Conc pilots they were briefed to level off at 1500' after t/o and many bust that level such was the rocket-like performance at light weight. One of them told me "I used to get it turning - that cooled things down a bit!".
@MrJeffcoley1
3 жыл бұрын
@@johncox4273 All of which assumes you KNOW what is going to happen, and have a pre-planned response in your mind ready to go. That plane leapt up and went vertical, stalled and crashed in a matter of seconds. He had time to realize it was crashing but little more.
@John_Freas
3 жыл бұрын
@@MrJeffcoley1 It did not go vertical. It did not stall.
@cecilwalston4068
3 жыл бұрын
Hey Juan, here's what happened to Jerry a few years ago. He took off from a small West Texas airport, having done a very thorough and uneventful pre-flight on the Cherokee 140. After an uneventful takeoff and climb-out to 3000 AGL, he executed a standard rate right hand turn, only to discover a stuck elevator! He fought for a couple of minutes, using the throttle to control altitude and attitude, deciding that he would not be able to land the plane in its current state, he decided to pull really hard in an attempt to un-jam the elevator, and to his surprise, there was a pop, and the control freed up and began to operate normally! What had happened is that a mud dauber had built a sizeable mud nest on the elevator cable, and the vibration of flight loosened it and it slid down the cable and wedged into the pulley! A very UNPLEASANT surprise, according to Jerry, followed by a tear down of the inspection panels and subsequent removal of a lot more mud nests!
@gusm5128
3 жыл бұрын
Wow !
@bluetrue6062
3 жыл бұрын
😳
@eucliduschaumeau8813
2 жыл бұрын
Those mud dauber wasps have brought down full sized passenger jets. They usually build the mud nests in the Pitot tubes, which leads to false readings in the instruments.
@Machlooper
3 жыл бұрын
One of my first thoughts was ‘runaway trim’ Juan. Been in a big turbo prop when it happened. Luckily it was a multi crew aircraft and the pilot non-flying was quickly able to override the action. Turned out it was a faulty trim switch on the left control column . R.I.P ‘Snort’ .
@briangray7916
3 жыл бұрын
My first thought as well.
@barrybarnes96
3 жыл бұрын
Don't know how you guys choose to fly when a cheap malfunctioning part can spell disaster. Couldn't pay me enough to get on a plane even once, never mind on the regular.
@gusm5128
3 жыл бұрын
Me either mate .
@hb1338
3 жыл бұрын
@@barrybarnes96 And yet you get into a car where your life is often in the hands of other people whom you wouldn't trust to buy you coffee.
@GapeGang
2 жыл бұрын
@@barrybarnes96 Pahahahahahahahahaha
@scuds03
3 жыл бұрын
After learning of this I took some time to learn about Dale. It’s always sad to learn of another Veteran slipping away; my heart really goes out to y’all in the aviation community.
@wunderwoman6577
2 жыл бұрын
I had the same thing happen to me, when I was still flying. The shop manager was right seat with me and I had a similar expletive. I asked my right seater help me to force the nose down. We returned to the airport under emergency. When I pulled the thrust lever back, it helped tremendously.
@gordonrichardson2972
3 жыл бұрын
The B737 MCAS fiasco taught everyone that trim forces depend strongly on airspeed. It is not clear that mis-trimming would exceed the range of control forces at takeoff speed (07:15)
@billmecorney
3 жыл бұрын
I think what the MAX accidents inform, is don't get into a battle with the Stab using elevator trim. Not a fair fight.
@billmecorney
3 жыл бұрын
Gordon... Not exactly. The Stab trim increased (ND) beyond the elevator authority to trim the airplane. They were doomed at just about any airspeed. The crew kept adding elevator, and ran out of authority for NU.....
@joer5571
3 жыл бұрын
@@billmecorney In the Ethiopian Max crash, the takeoff power setting was never reduced, all the way through the pitch excursions, all the way to impact… 737s in general experience an enormous pitch up when adding power, especially if you’re not ready for it and ON the nose down trim AS the power comes up… With 18k hours of time in several models of the 737, I can tell you that if you’re trimmed properly for a landing, then hit the TOGA switches without starting down trim, you’re gonna go for an interesting pitch up ride… Hit those switches twice gets you full thrust, and that is nearly impossible to control with the elevators alone, I’ve had a new FO that I was giving OE to do that, and I literally was hitting the full elevator nose down stop before the elevator trim started helping get the nose down… I can’t see where Snort made any noticeable control inputs, even with the video slowed down and magnified… I think when the controller asked him to come up on the 119.4 tower freq, it looked to me as if he pulled the power back for a moment, then pushed it up again, I kind of think that some of his camping gear fell in front of the stick and wedged it back during that power change…
@billmecorney
3 жыл бұрын
@@joer5571 That is my surmise also. A bag or camp stove lodged in front of the aft stick. It was the new engines on the MAX that drove the installation of MCAS. Maneuvering Control Augmentation System.... Engineers feared takeoff would lead to pitch excursions and possible stall. The cause of Lion and Ethiopian accidents was lack of awareness of the major changes. As a 737 pilot, do you think the MAX should require a new Type certificate?
@jaycahow4667
Жыл бұрын
From what I have read the rudder works fine when the controls are locked and the plane can be taxied fine. The NTSB found the cause to be inadvertent locked controls.
@Deusmecumest
3 жыл бұрын
Such a tragedy. Such an experienced pilot, (in a hurry, asking for take off on ground freq) such a nice aircraft. The ATC audio is very revealing and chilling at the same time.
@414Chevy
2 жыл бұрын
Okay, as a former aircraft mechanic in the USAF, if we had to work on, or replace stuff on flight control systems, we were REQUIRED to ops check flight control function with one in the flight deck and one on the ground to ensure flight controls were moving in correct direction and deflection angles. Maybe GA needs to REQUIRE two man ops checks if they don't already, which would be insane.
@jeffh7021
3 жыл бұрын
The trim disconnect and radio transmission leads me to believe iit was probably a trim issue. Thanks Juan. RIP Snort.
@mmichaeldonavon
3 жыл бұрын
Juan Brown. As an Avionics-Instrument tech, back in the 1970's I worked an elevator trim system problem on a T-39. It was written up as "works backwards." It did, in fact, work backwards. . The shop who previously worked a trim problem on this airplane, did not understand how the trim worked. (Was either Aero Repair, or the Electric Shop) They said if the trim tab moved DOWN, the nose of the plane would go down, reducing the AOA - WRONG! In Normal operation, as you know Juan, if the trim tab moves DOWN, the elevator is deflected UP, increasing the airplane's AOA. If the tab is moved UP, the elevator is deflected DOWN decreasing the airplane's AOA. Have seen this with the rudder trim on other T-39's. May be the cause of the crash. The aircraft maintenance forms should show any work done in that area. Thanks. N6395T (I'm still going with locked controls - from something.)
@ForTheLoveOfRightRudder
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the update JB. I'm finding this crash particularly difficult to deal with. Snort was a true legend, what a tragedy. :(
@henriettawight5216
3 жыл бұрын
It os so easy to catch the mistakes of the left seat (pic) pilot. It is a whole other ball game flying the left seat and chatching your own. I learned this shooting approaches with another IFR pilot as safety pilot. We used to fly an approach to a full stop and change seats and fly the same approach. One of the simplest mistakes is forgetting to start your clock at the IAP. I remember once when i was a fresh instrument pilot doing this I kicked the pilot in command for not starting his clock. On the very next approach I was flying in the left seat and I forgot to start my clock. Yes, he caught it
@rcflighttestengineer5636
3 жыл бұрын
I very much doubt the trim system has enough aerodynamic power at that speed to prevent it being overpowered by the pilot, particularly with the relatively long lever moment of the stick. If you look at the video it appears he never raised the tail in the takeoff roll, which is very unusual in all but a very few types, mainly some WWII aircraft with low propellor ground clearance when the tail is up. Having flown tail draggers for 45 years I was taught that except in those rare types you always get the tail up for a number of reasons, but most importantly so you decide when it is time to fly, not the airplane. Therefore, if this aircraft has just come out of deep level maintenance I would be inclined to be looking at a reversal of the elevator control system (more likely if cables than a pushrod and I do not know which is used on this type) than a pitch trim problem. This would explain why the tail remained planted, even if the PIC applied forward stick to lift it during the roll.
@jackprier7727
3 жыл бұрын
2 great points there-
@matthiasalfonsaltmeier3406
3 жыл бұрын
What a tragic, unnecessary loss. Regarding the cause (pilot error, given his overall flight hours and history can be ruled out I guess at this point)........I really love Italy, it's people, culture and landscapes! They are the greatest designers on earth in my view, also in the technical arena but if the product says "made in ....." go after ELECTRICS! I think you have a solid lead there already. (had a few cars...great motors but Jesus, the electrics usually get temperamental once you cross the Alps northwards). Many thanks for your great investigative work Mr. Brown. Always good and enlightening to listen to you. Stay safe.
@badmonkey2222
3 жыл бұрын
I'm sticking by my theory, this guy was in a huge hurry and again, listen to the tapes, he was on the wrong frequency, had his numbers called out before even taxied, and even tried to take off without clearance, and that back seat was full of camping gear I think he just tossed the stuff in there didn't check to make sure everything is secure properly and something got hung up on that back stick, or where the little canvass boot around the bottom of his stick was missing something could have fallen in there and hung up on his stick, I'm sticking with it.
@REDMAN298
3 жыл бұрын
You make a strong point. Glad it`s not a gust lock error.
@badmonkey2222
3 жыл бұрын
@@REDMAN298 yes sir
@HiTechRob
3 жыл бұрын
FOD - clearly whatever happened caught him by surprise but agree that contreols at some level had to have been stuck - there were no oscillations like he was fighting for control or that he had visible ability to override whatever was going on.
@darrens.4322
3 жыл бұрын
Dan over on Probable Cause (Probably/Maybe) posited that on his YT channel.
@billmecorney
3 жыл бұрын
@@kristyskirt9015 you might be confusing elevator with Stab trim. Alaskan? That was a jammed jackscrew. Even runaway trim on this Marchetti would be responsive to the stick. I lean toward a jammed stick, forward or aft seat.... Accelerated Stall at that altitude likely unrecoverable... Also, the claim is full torque through impact.... Closing the throttle might have actually recovered the deck angle and prevented a fatal....
@kennysherrill6542
3 жыл бұрын
As an aircraft mechanic it's my worst nightmare to cause an accident and death, I had super Instructors at Reedley College Aero, you did it right or you were gone. 👍👍👍👍👍❤🇺🇸
@bobirving7460
3 жыл бұрын
How about the fire extinguisher, visible at 0:33 is dislodged during embarkation/disembarkation or adjustment of shoulder harness, rolls back and jams under the horizontal torque tube, visible at 2:00 that connects the rear stick to the front stick. The torque tube rises when the stick is back, lowers when the stick goes forward. Anything jammed under there would prevent the pilot getting the stick forward.
@kenclark2848
3 жыл бұрын
In that case anything loose in rear cockpit could do same thing.
@bobirving7460
3 жыл бұрын
@@kenclark2848 Correct
@nateg6320
3 жыл бұрын
I saw him fly his F14 along time ago at an airshow in NY. Godspeed my friend
@bw162
3 жыл бұрын
It was reported that he was going camping. The Marchetti has a lot of elevator throw and while I can see flap extension, I can't see any elevator deflection in a frame-by-frame view. Admittedly, it is grainy and it would be hard to say for sure. Another person who knew the aircraft before he bought it, reported there was no cloth boot around the bottom of the rear control stick and floor. Maybe....only guessing, he had some camping gear in the rear and you can speculate from there. Perhaps that can explain his last Tx as he was pushing the control stick and hitting the mike button while he was leaning backwards trying to free a jam. It has happened before and I know a couple Comanche pilots that couldn’t get a green light on retraction, returned to the field only to find out a Jep or lunch bag stopped the Johnson bar from traveling the full distance.
@ethanhiggins4887
3 жыл бұрын
I think this is a more likely cause considering how nice that airplane looked. Of course just because there is a lot of money in it doesn’t mean it was maintained well…
@bw162
3 жыл бұрын
@@ethanhiggins4887 Trim issues happen but they are rare. Even with full power, the airflow/pressure at slow speeds wouldn’t produce, in most cases, a trim induced control issue you couldn’t over power or merely stop by turning off the master switch and trim manually. Someone once told me to not overlook the more likely and mundane explanation in favor of a sexy and more technical/complex possibility. I couldn’t see any control surface deflections that you would expect in this kind of accident unless the control movement was restricted some how. BUT, everything I have said is just speculation. Guilty as charged.
@Tenright77
3 жыл бұрын
The post maintenance warning is genuine. I had both air start units on an EMB-145 fail when after a service/inspection, oil was not replaced in the starter gear boxes. They fried on the fourth cycle(S), blowing shards and sparks out the air exhaust. Thanks Juan
@centralwebs
3 жыл бұрын
In Skydiving we double check everything ourselves, then we get our buddy to check us out again that's saved lives, crazy stuff gets missed if you don't get that buddy check. before we board the plane. It's happened and will happen again, the pull-up cord left in the loop that closes the bag for the deployment pin or ripcord system. This totally prevents the chutes deployment. Guarantees a reserve ride and amazingly guys base jumping have died with that one. Leg straps or chest strap not fastened, people have fallen out of the harness on opening the chute and a lot more. You can always use another pair of eyes and a full check. It's something GA pilots don't do but I can think of several who might still be alive if they had.
@stijnvandamme76
3 жыл бұрын
yeah and even then on my first duo jump, my tandem harness broke as i was just about to go out the plane attached with that harness to the parachute man It just snapped clean off. Luckily while I was still in the plane. I did go on a second jump right after landing with the plane, and did a solo not to long after there i had my share of complications as well . sticky followed by a huge twist and the radio didn't work either , good fun all around
@Mike-01234
3 жыл бұрын
I read a comment over another video from a owner he stated this aircraft requires lot of trim up to land it, and if that trim was left like that with the flaps on take off at 30 Degrees the 400 HP turbine engine will cause it to nose up rapidly. If you look at the crash video you can clearly see he does have flaps down to some degree not sure how much on take off.
@klesmer
3 жыл бұрын
I saw Dale's F-14 Supertomcat demo at MacDill AFB in Tampa decades ago and thought he was one of the best I have seen. And I understand he was a terrific guy to be around.But, when the big guy upstairs says it is time to come home it is going to happen.
@DEeMONsworld
3 жыл бұрын
No one can believe this could happen to a seasoned extremely skilled pilot, how ironic he met his demise in a single engine light aircraft. It is unacceptable to most that he made a mistake, not him. But no one is considering the haste with which he departed, his confusion as to what frequency he was on, all the short cuts he made to get out fast. Few accidents happen solely due to one factor alone, it is usually a chain of events that combine to cause the end result. So maybe they should consider the factor of his mindset and ability to react to a situation given his hurried manner and age. Everyone gets old and while he is still operating with skills few of us will ever have, he was 72. I'm 74, I understand it.
@gr5375
3 жыл бұрын
I don't know I watched the video of the crash 20x without sound and it looks like there were no control inputs. If runaway trim you'd think he would have firewalled the stick...regardless of if he can't overpower it we would see flapping control surfaces....especially from a fighter pilot who is used to hand flying
@stewartsmith1947
3 жыл бұрын
I noticed the same . Elevators and ailerons never moved .
@gr5375
3 жыл бұрын
nor rudder: I get that this happened fast but in that limited time frame I suspect “do something” might have won out over “freeze”. We should find out soon. I also noticed that on impact the elevator suddenly moves, then I think comes to rest up, likely as the control system breaks. I just get the sense that in some way the controls were locked and the elevator in a slight climb position and the flight path dictated by left turning tendency.
@apolloreinard7737
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the updates! Sad such a professional got into trouble. I'm sure he'd want the community to learn as much as we can from this tragedy.
@jbl7092
3 жыл бұрын
I love following Juan as he plows through the data to answer all the questions people raise regarding these accidents. Some people obviously misunderstand and accuse him of being premature in his conclusions when they don't understand that they are witnessing an investigaion in progress. It's fascinating to watch professional pilots like Juan and Dan Gryder wade through all the emerging information to let us in on the "probable cause" of the accident without making us wait two years for an NTSB guess that may not be any more revealing. Keep up the good work, Juan!
@jab8162
3 жыл бұрын
Interesting….one would wonder that a light aircraft, even if modified to utilize a powerful turboprop, could be certified in which pitch authority could not override pitch trim….and if so…a possible emergency procedure would be to chop power? Yes, understand everything happened fast….. Also possible pitch was not set for take-off, and still set in the last position for landing (with flaps)? And what about a weight & balance issue, mis-calculation …something just too heavy placed in the aft baggage area (assume there is an aft storage area).
@harleythepilot
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks Juan, you always do a great job, been recommending you to my pilot friends around the airport. So sad to lose snort, such an accomplished aviator. Again, Thanks Juan, great job as always.
@jeremybarker7577
3 жыл бұрын
To me (a non-pilot) the really horrifying thing about this accident is the speed at which events happened. From the wheels leaving the ground to impact is 10 seconds at most. It seems most unlikely it would have been immediately obvious something was wrong so the time to react and take corrective action was less than that. Even if the assumption that corrective action can be started in 4 seconds is realistic it looks to me that would have been too late to be effective.
@onethousandtwonortheast8848
3 жыл бұрын
MIF= Maintenance Induced Failure Learn this newbies. Accidents like these kept me from getting my PPL. Glad I abstained. You all have bigger balls.
@Saabjock
2 жыл бұрын
It is always a good idea to step back and have a second pair of eyes on ALL flight controls. I spent twenty-five years as a corporate AMT. Every single thing to do with flight controls was an RII item. We had a process which included you doing the work.... followed by your crew lead verifying the work... followed by the inspection department doing the final 'eyes-on' inspection prior to closing panels. The last line of defense was the pilots doing their inside and outside checks prior to test flight.
@stanley917
3 жыл бұрын
The Siai-Marchetti was a foreign manufactured military aircraft licensed in the experimental exhibition category. Flight characteristics may or may not conform to our standard category airworthiness category.
@gmcjetpilot
3 жыл бұрын
That has nothing to do with this. This is a copy of a Cessna Birddog with a turbine engine. It is very conventional in handling.
@skizzo19761
2 жыл бұрын
U completely wrong ! Siai marchetti is a well designed Italians airplane , capable, and civilian aircraft ! Also military trainer versions, which I flew it ….most likely that was a control lock mechanism……could be that he didn’t disconnect the alevator control lock …
@mtweiss01
2 жыл бұрын
Had a runaway trim incident in my old Cherokee Six. Thankfully I was landing and low power, and was able to overpower the elevator trim (it was full down) and didn’t have time to pull the breaker or troubleshoot. Made the landing. Taxied directly to the maintenance hangar.
@Bobbygale121
3 жыл бұрын
During my time working on A-4's runaway trim off an aircraft carrier was a serious concern. So much that a manual trim disable switch was installed on A-4's that were carrier-based. My thought is a Naval Aviator would understand runaway trim and his memory circuits and muscle memory would -- Perhaps more than any other type of aviator -- correct the situation almost instantly.
@PilotSavvy
3 жыл бұрын
A few years ago I encountered a runaway trim issue but the advantage that I had was that it was already reported but the squawk was vague so I decided to troubleshoot the issue at 5500 feet while on a cross country flight. The breaker was pulled and I pushed it back in. All was well for the first few seconds of engaging the auto pilot in the wings level mode. Then it suddenly aggressively pushed the nose over into what would have been a steep dive but I almost immediately pulled the breaker again when I realized the amount of back pressure required to prevent a very steep dive. Had this happened during takeoff and with no heads-up of the trim issue things would have unfolded in a different way.
@stormysrider
3 жыл бұрын
If that’s a PTT / ICS switch beside the cookie hat I will throw in another possibility. If it’s a 2 position switch (fwd for XMIT back for ICS) it is possible he was activating that instead of the trim switch. Thinking he was trimming down but actually transmitting. Hence the swearing on the radio. Switchology in a new aircraft can bite you!
@citybright8925
3 жыл бұрын
Wasn’t that new to him. He flew that airplane 23 times between May 26 and June 30, when he flew it to Lewiston airport for maintenance.
@timcross2510
3 жыл бұрын
In WWII, the British Lysander, had a number of accidents because full nose up trim couldn't be overcome by stick forces on a short takeoff. It was the high wing fixed gear plane used to pick up and drop off spies in France.
@Christopher28fair
3 жыл бұрын
Non-pilot asks: No matter how powerful the trim tab force is, how could it possibly overpower the application of full down elevator, which looks like it has at least ten times the surface area? And why would the pilot even be fiddling with trim settings on takeoff? I thought trim was for making fine adjustments to the plane during level flight?
@gordonquickstad
3 жыл бұрын
I'm not a pilot either. The trim tabs seem to have a mechanical advantage by being out at the trailing edge of the elevator whereas the man-powered elevator control would be applied closer to the elevator pivot point. Just guessing because pilots here are seeming to point out the forces that the trim tabs can have. But it seems to me that system design should always allow the direct elevator controls to override any incorrect trim setting. If not, "trim" is not a very good term for these things - something more like "alternate elevator" control would be closer to what they do.
@thenasadude6878
3 жыл бұрын
The trim tab is at the end of the elevator, which gives the tab a lot of leverage to move the elevator. Fighting against it will be dfficult or impossible. Trim has to be set correctly for every phase of the flight: if you have ever stick your hand out of your car window, you know how much force air can exert even at speeds very low for an aircraft
@bjs2022
3 жыл бұрын
Christopher28fair Yes, both for level flight and high speed and for the gross adjustments needed for takeoffs and landings that are at lower speeds. Also for climbing with more power and descending with reduced power.
@bendafyddgillard
3 жыл бұрын
Notice that the trim tab doesn't control the aeroplane directly, it controls (or biases) the elevator which controls the aeroplane. The pilot cannot physically apply enough force (through the stick) to oppose the force applied to the elevator by the trim tab in this case. Imagine a demon standing on the horizontal stabilizer, heaving upwards on the back of the elevator. The pilot cannot physically move the elevator in the direction they want to. If they could, yes the aircraft would probably be controllable despite the trim tab. The trim tab is used in all regimes of flight, from take-off to landing. Any changes in power or attitude usually require trim changes. Trim (when it's working correctly) is used to negate forces that the pilot would otherwise have to continuously apply to the controls. Look for cockpit videos of small planes and note when the pilot is cranking what is usually, in older types, a wheel-like control, before lining up for takeoff, in the climb after takeoff, beginning descent etc.
@Krinje
3 жыл бұрын
If the switch or system was faulty, he may not have touched it at all. The trim tabs move the whole elevator (see the graphic) So it's not elevator vs trim tab, it's trim tab force vs stick. Generally it is often able to be overcome by the pilot, but that as reported, that may not be the case in this aircraft.
@CommomsenseSmith
3 жыл бұрын
Just watched Dale Snodgrass demonstrating the F14 in the 90’s he was an awesome pilot. Such a horrible way to go out but he was doing what he loved.
@JR-kc8jx
3 жыл бұрын
As someone who has thought that they would die imminently several times while doing what I love, that thought doesn’t come to mind in the moment. It always just sucks really bad.
@rogerkober9836
3 жыл бұрын
Juan I truly respect, enjoy and learn from your videos. Unlike certain other channels, it’s never about you and you’re always respectful of the people involved regardless of who they are.
@rbhoward9123
3 жыл бұрын
I am not a pilot. With that said, I was listening to the details of what is on the stick, the trim control that Juan mentions (at about 3 minutes in) as being a possible contributor to the nose up pitch and the radio controls nearby. In the video after atc clears Dale for take off he acknowledges. She immediately comes back to remind him to switch to another frequency. If the video is synced with the audio he was already moving. He acknowledges the radio freq. change then the AT Controller comes on the radio again and repeats the clearance for take off. Dale, about to lift off, acknowledges this final transmission. Then the aircraft immediately starts the steep climb. While fighting to control the stall, Dale shouts out twice inadvertently heard over the radio just before impact. It seems to me that this last exchange of comms from atc was not only unnecessary, and could have waited until after take off was achieved safely, but placed Dales attention at the wrong time to his radio rather than the trim control switch close by. Instead of manipulating the trim he's activating the radio. I could be wrong but, I got a sinking feeling Juan made the connection for the possibility that the trim switch along with the radio switch made the holes line up that took Dale's life.
@citybright8925
3 жыл бұрын
Video intentionally omits pauses longer than one second. It’s in the video description. There was actually 36 seconds of silence from Dale’s takeoff confirmation to his final heartbreaking words. The video shortens that to six seconds, giving the false impression he and the tower were still communicating during that silence.
@mazerat4q2
3 жыл бұрын
Extremely aft cg and over loading produces an impossible nose pitch up. It happened to me in a Cessna 180 flying sky divers. 5 guys with 5 parachutes in a 180. On take off roll I was pushing full force forward to the point of possibly breaking the yoke and the tail would not lift up. I look to the rear and see one of the sky divers had slid back past the baggage area into the tail cone.
@jdhaase1417
3 жыл бұрын
Yikes!
@kayakutah
3 жыл бұрын
Yeah, I'm thinking cg issue as well, but we just have to wait for the investigation results.
@pookatim
3 жыл бұрын
I don't think that was a factor. This cockpit is tiny. Not much distance from the back of the pilot's seat to the end of the cockpit. He stowed camping equipment in the rear seat. I don't think it could have seriously affected the COG.
@mazerat4q2
3 жыл бұрын
@@pookatim it sure looks like it would be difficult to put this plane in an aft cg. Unless you put 500 lbs in the rear seat. The pilot seems to be sitting about on the cg. I agree it looks like cg was not the problem.
@kayakutah
3 жыл бұрын
The argument against a CG problem seems legit. The arguments for some other causes seem weak. I haven't listened to the tape. Any chance a heart attack led to the crash?
@bottlestopper4353
3 жыл бұрын
The roll the trim wheel by hand then electric check. Servo motors can’t feel a thing. If they malfunction they can rip the trim system apart without a capstan release for cables or secondary stop switch for a screw jack
@fpvrcstuff
3 жыл бұрын
In the video, it looked like none of the control surfaces moved?
@TheOwenMajor
3 жыл бұрын
Yep, I don't buy this explanation, if it was the trim we still would have seen some movement in the elevator.
@aerotuc
3 жыл бұрын
powerful engine ,basics in this plane included .increasing thrust creates pitch up more than lift up and if trimmed back for the landing prior ,then will require quiet a bit of forward force LBS to overcome before trimming forward to neutral .The severe pitch up and loss of speed reducing controll authority ,the stall spin .tradedy follows ,sorry to the family.a great loss.best wishes from Australia.
@brianeaton3734
3 жыл бұрын
There are some still shots of the tail of the plane as the fire is being extinguished post-crash. An expanded screenshot appears to show deflected trim tabs.
@jiyushugi1085
3 жыл бұрын
Excellent presentation! Minor addition: If the Marchetti's control lock is the same as the Bird Dog's, it not only prevents the rudder pedals from moving, it also depresses the brakes, preventing the plane from even rolling. I spent the past six years flying Caravans. Never once did I use the electric trim for fear of a runaway trim, something one of our pilots experienced. Too, the manual trim gives you a more intimate feel for the airplane. On a practical note, if you use it a lot it's going to eventually fail, and that little switch costs about $500.
@luporattazzi4551
3 жыл бұрын
Hi guys, my two cents from Italy : this is an airplane extensively used by the Italian Army and so I talked to a veteran SM-1109 ,3.000 hour Army instructor. He told me that it has happened to him that the seat would come unlocked,luckily at altitude. He doesn’t buy the trim argument because there is not even a hint of an attempt to pitch the nose down during that steep climb. RIP Snort Lupo Rattazzi Rome, Italy
@stephenfortin9485
2 жыл бұрын
did you watch the video? his configuration would of made it impossible to move the seat but only a couple inches... not the cause...
@luporattazzi4551
2 жыл бұрын
@@stephenfortin9485 You mean the seat doesn’t travel that far back? (Of course I watched the video)
@stephenfortin9485
2 жыл бұрын
@@luporattazzi4551 no it cannot due to the configuration, he had a 2nd seat in the back with its own instrument panel and controls. the seat pretty much rests on that, as many owners of this layout have stated the seat hardly moves at all.
@luporattazzi4551
2 жыл бұрын
@@stephenfortin9485 Well then what the hell happened? Did somebody invert the cables during maintenance ( Onassis Jr accident in Greece on a Piaggio amphibian)
@stephenfortin9485
2 жыл бұрын
@@luporattazzi4551 more than likely trim settings from previous landing never adjusted for takeoff....
@fe6147
3 жыл бұрын
Is there any possibility loose or unsecured cargo in the rear seat engaged elevator trim from the rear?
@Marauder92V
3 жыл бұрын
Looking at the frame by frame shots, he definitely has flaps down to some extent. When you step through the frames and even seeing the post accident pictures, the trim tabs look in place and the elevator was neutral. There is a few frames of the plane in the sharp left bank and you can clearly see the elevators. Really makes me wonder if the elevator was completely stuck or bound in some manner. My understanding is that there is a 4K video of the accident. Hopefully they find the cause of the accident. Hate to see a pilot of his caliber lose his life this way.
@peterknight4692
3 жыл бұрын
Not sure why the flaps were down on takeoff - at least to that extent. They were still evidently down as the plane turned but were they still so far down? Agreed there doesn't seem to be any movement of any other control surfaces. Would the flaps have added to the pitch up moment? Sure the plane was a STOL but this was a takeoff to get somewhere in a hurry so why flaps? The video also suggests he took off well before getting clearance - unless the audio and video are out of sync.
@user-sm3xq5ob5d
3 жыл бұрын
@@peterknight4692 He got clearance two times. At 0:38 still rolling then coming to full stop at 0:42, then a second time at 0:53 when he was already taking off. I think he said "... up ..." as in showing up on the ATC frequency and getting the clearance a second time. But that is my speculation as I don't understand him and procedures only merely.
@KB4QAA
3 жыл бұрын
@@peterknight4692 Extending flaps causes a nose down moment.
@peterknight4692
3 жыл бұрын
@@KB4QAA Ok, though I got this from the FAAsafety.gov website on flap usage:- "Flap deflection of up to 15° primarily produces lift with minimal drag. The airplane has a tendency to balloon up with initial flap deflection because of the lift increase. The nose down pitching moment, however, tends to offset the balloon. • Flap deflection beyond 15° produces a large increase in drag. In high-wing airplanes, a significant nose up pitching moment can occur because the resulting downwash increases the airflow over the horizontal tail." That looked a lot more than 15 degrees of flap.
@citybright8925
3 жыл бұрын
@@peterknight4692 The audio and video are badly - and deliberately; read the video description - out of sync. They show about 18 seconds from takeoff to final words/crash when the actual radio transmission recording shows there was silence for 35-36 seconds between his acknowledgment of takeoff ti his final heartbreaking words. So he did not rush takeoff but was silent for about 18 seconds before taking off.
@josephking6515
3 жыл бұрын
The elevator forces increase rapidly and are surprisingly, no *shockingly* strong on takeoff. Due to a miscommunication I thought the trim had an issue (but I still flew it, duh me) but it was actually the position indicator that was inoperative. This resulted in me not trimming until the forces grew so great that I could no longer pole forward so I then wound the trim wheel. This was a Cherokee 6/300 so without looking up the the specs of the Siai Marchetti I imagine the 6 didn't have anything like the forces that this aircraft had. My bag of experience got a big addition that flight with a small depletion from the bag of luck. I wish I could have donated from my luck bag for his flight. A very disturbing and very short video but I hope something positive comes from this. Even though I didn't know the pilot, my sincerest condolences to his family and friends.
@bjs2022
3 жыл бұрын
Good, and, the control lock also applies the brakes.
@blancolirio
3 жыл бұрын
Not on the Marchetti, only on the Cessna.
@josephkaminski1857
Жыл бұрын
The elevator cable broke on the down line side. Since the elevator cable has 30-35 Lbs of tension on both lines, when the down side broke the elevator up side pulled the elevators up with recoil. This is because down line tension went to zero when it broke on the side and the 30-35lbs tension on the up side had no counter force from down line side anymore. This is what causes the intense up elevator that stalled the plane. All steel wire cable has a 10 yr max life for fatigue that the FAA ignores on all aircraft. It has caused more accidents than anything. The downline side of a elevator cable is the most worked with stress, This is because as you pull elevator up , you are increasing the tension on the down line side of the line. Note that flying a plane involves using up elevator far more often than down elevator control, and it is this increased line tension on the down line side, that happens more often that causes down line side to stress fatigue first.
@motorTranz
3 жыл бұрын
May God comfort the Snodgrass family. My condolences 🙏
@nancychace8619
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for your report. Sorry for this loss. Hope this one gets figured out. Condolences. RIP.
@pdquestions7673
3 жыл бұрын
the way the plane pitched up so steadily... maybe a bad trim setting caused the initial abrupt over-rotation -- causing heavy cargo to slide back --- thus preventing a recovery even w full down elevator. Maybe his muscle memory was used to a certain "nudge back" of the stick to get this rotation-attitude, but w a bad trim setting that usual nudge cause way more nose up that what he expected... and once some heavy cargo slid back, not even full down elevator could make a difference. I would try to zoom the video images & see if there was full down elevator deflection after the over-rotation (might suggest cargo slid back after the initial unexpected over-rotation).
@pdquestions7673
3 жыл бұрын
@@tammyhefner8971 -- The image quality isn't the greatest, but if that's true... then maybe an elevator cable failure. The flight profile looks a lot like a severe aft-CG incident, but maybe the flight control failure caused the initial over-rotation, which then caused all loose cargo to immediately slide aft. Sad how quickly it all went bad.
@pdquestions7673
3 жыл бұрын
@@400_billion_suns -- yeah, that looks a lot like down elevator... strongly suggests some kind of severe aft-CG... Maybe he wasn't carrying "cargo" per se. But something heavy appears to have shifted far aft on rotation. Maybe he was honestly practicing a sporty rotation & there was an unexpected shift in whatever luggage or materials he was carrying on board.
@roberthartmaier6643
3 жыл бұрын
The elevator appears to be in exact trail position of the horizontal stab all the way to the crash. It never moves, and is exactly lined up with the horizontal stab.
@8788luigi
3 жыл бұрын
My first solo on a T41(C-172) the seat lock on the rail slid on me but luckily the nose was trimmed. I just let go of the yoke.
@rebekahleonard2884
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the update. Even my age addled brain can follow your reasoning...great teacher! Journey mercies.
@Wildman9
3 жыл бұрын
It seems like that there's more of these types of crashes ,especially after takeoff . Maybe , take more time on your check list . Even triple check,it's your life ,folks that are with you ,and the unknowing public . Thanks Juan for time and info on these often unreported accidents . ✈✈✈
@maxium4x4
3 жыл бұрын
In slow motion, you see no movement of the controls on the tail.
@Rhaman68
3 жыл бұрын
In the USAF in my time, 1968-1988, flying the RC-130A, AC-130A and as an Undergraduate Pilot Training Instructor in the T-38A, I recall runway trim exercises. To deal with high pitch forces, banking the aircraft while following other acft specific procedures, was the way to lower the pitch angle to avoid a stall. Of course, it is unknown for now if Dale had flight control issues. Nose trim can only do so much at high pitch angles.
@kellywilson8440
3 жыл бұрын
We will find out down the road what happened .RIP Snort you will never be forgotten by your Navy brothers and the aviation community .
@RevMishka
3 жыл бұрын
Excellent! Thanks for the update! What a loss! RIP Capt. Snodgrass!
@localcrew
3 жыл бұрын
Gonna guess there may be some aircraft mechanics sweating bullets during this investigation.
@larrybe2900
3 жыл бұрын
Was there enough left of the tail to determine what we need to know?
@perwestermark8920
3 жыл бұрын
@@larrybe2900 The tail looked fine. Not so much so with the front of the plane. Much, much shorter. And then the fire.
@pookatim
3 жыл бұрын
You make a good case and if true we will find that out. Moving to another possible scenario, listening to the ATC chatter, he seemed to be in quite a hurry, even making a few "rookie mistakes". He reported "having the numbers" instead of providing the alphabet designation causing the controller to give him wind and altimeter. He requested a very quick, half runway departure so I am not sure if there was a run up check. He "assumed" he was cleared for take off when the controller gave him clearance to taxi to the runway. He neglected to switch frequencies from the ground controller to the departure controller as well. This was not a "by the book" way of operating. Mention was made that he was going camping and had loaded camping gear in the rear seat. Perhaps some of that gear may have gotten in front of the control stick and when the plane began a steep climb, it may have slid around is some way that interfered with stick movement? I don't know why he was rushing but is sure sounds to me like he was. I know this is an STOL aircraft but the way he left the runway seemed rather odd. I believe Dan Grynder makes this point in his take on this event on his channel. Listening to the ATC tape, there wasn't any time for him to react so something unexpected prevented him from correcting the nose up attitude. It was mere seconds between when he lifted off until we hear his expletives. The fact that he broadcast those expletives adds weight to the argument that he was possibly fumbling with the trim disable switch. Anyway, just trying to figure out what happened.
@cambo1200
3 жыл бұрын
It happened so fast I think it would have been difficult to recover even if you were expecting it.
@blancolirio
3 жыл бұрын
yes!
@magnusbadger6532
3 жыл бұрын
@@blancolirio This happen to me in a Partenavia P.68 when i first started working.The only thing I could do was to reduce the power. ended up doing a circruit at a very uncomfortable low speed and land at Whyalla South Australia. I will always remember it, Run away trim.
@X85283
3 жыл бұрын
@@magnusbadger6532 completely different airplane. You can absolutely out-muscle the trim on this plane. Especially at low speeds.
@maximilliancunningham6091
3 күн бұрын
I find it hard to believe. I'm reminded how the legendary Scott Crossfeild went out, and moire recently Bill Andres.
@edcobbritatomlincobb4611
3 жыл бұрын
Thinking a piece of his camping gear tumbled in front of the stick when he rotated, and wiggled tighter as he tried to regain control the stick .
@SuperDave_BR549
3 жыл бұрын
like something getting under your foot pedals on your car, no matter how hard you mash down, not much is going to happen. it's kind of like skydiving, you can drop a few balls you're juggling and no harm, no foul, but at certain times everything has to be done by the numbers. (body position at pull time and flaring the canopy.)
@agenttex
3 жыл бұрын
Hard for me to imagine - no matter how much thrust from engine and such a slow airspeed - that he couldn’t push elevator full forward to overcome any trim setting. With lots of stuff stowed in rear (seat) likelihood of snag on rear control stick seems high to me. Sad.
@havenrich
2 жыл бұрын
I experienced a misrigged elevator trim system in a Grob 103 glider upon take-off under aero-tow for a ferry flight CKE to CVH. Luckily stick control easily overpowered any trim adjustment and I figured out the problem. I should have released and landed to give the glider back to the mechanic/repair station but I continued on tow to my destination where the glider became involved in a law suit!
@dziban303
3 жыл бұрын
That he made a radio call during the accident lends credence to the possibility of a problem with the trim hat.
@REDMAN298
3 жыл бұрын
Snorts`s cussing seemed focus on a mechanical fault. Not medical. jmo
@crazymonkeyVII
2 жыл бұрын
In an uncommanded pitch up, ALWAYS bank the aircraft immediately! Roll off the lift factor to the point where you're level or in a slight climb, THEN and only then troubleshoot the issue. Once you get into a stall with a stuck pitch up trim, it's all over :/. My heart goes out to the pilot and his family. RIP!
@redlightcivic
3 жыл бұрын
I AM NOT A PILOT! But, I see very little option for any answer other than the aircraft was 'incorrectly rigged' or a major failure of 'trim' and 'elevator' control. God Bless the man's Soul. You can tell by his voice he was doing all he could. For whatever reason, the aircraft failed him and he simply did not have enough time to sort it out. God Bless him and his family.
@citybright8925
3 жыл бұрын
Very well said, and astutely analyzed. Thank you.
@hb1338
3 жыл бұрын
So you have dismissed all the other possibilities raised by knowledgeable people on what basis ?
@citybright8925
3 жыл бұрын
@@hb1338 Very little option does not equal no option. Other possibilities remain. Where are these knowledgeable people you speak of posting? This is a poor platform to try to keep up. Blancolineo has done as much as anybody, and more than most, to try to glean from Marchetti owners the characteristics of that plane and to try to gauge the most likely possibilities.
@redlightcivic
3 жыл бұрын
@@hb1338 Well, I have considered if the guy was a total 'hotshot' and tried to hang the aircraft off the prop to impress someone watching. Another option was that Jesus came down from heaven and stepped on the elevator. That's all I got. Enlighten me.
@flybyairplane3528
3 жыл бұрын
JUAN, hello, thanks. for continuing on this aircraft/crash, hope that’s what’s left after fire , they will be able to see what the heck went wrong , recall the beech, in SC WITH IMPROPER RIGGING PLANE PITCHED UP STALLED, CRASHED, but the feds were ALSO found that it also was really overloaded, via physical, pax weight+ luggage 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
@ThatPilotDude
3 жыл бұрын
Incorrectly rigged trim is a fine theory. Just one problem, there’s no fixed wing maintenance on that side of the runway. Hillcrest is a Part 135 helicopter op and part 145/Bell repair station. They’re all out on fires this time of year so only thing open is the FBO services. He stopped for fuel over there.
@jamesslough6465
3 жыл бұрын
I think I read where the WWII Focke Wolf 190 had an electric trim switch, which used to fail and runaway occasionally. The switch failure got one of the post WWII USAF test pilots that was doing post war evaluations on the aircraft’s performance (and doing bond and goodwill tours). Not a new problem and very dangerous, even for very experienced pilots (especially a 72 year old pilot who doesn’t think as fast as he used to).
@18twilliams
3 жыл бұрын
I saw somewhere that the canvas sock wrapped around the stick base was missing! All it would take was a small F.O.D. to jam the controllers?
@scbane
3 жыл бұрын
I just hope he was gone before the fire got him. RIP, sir. Never met Mr. Snodgrass, sure would have liked to.
@kennysherrill6542
3 жыл бұрын
I worked for a company for a short time thank the Lord, I would get chewed out for doing everything by the book on Annuals, they are no longer in business. Never ever cut corners on inspections ever.👍❤🇺🇸
@Knightfang1
3 жыл бұрын
Im not a pilot in the real world although i have flown hundreds of hours in realistic simulations. Your explanation of runaway trim makes the most sense to me given dales experience level and training. I’ve felt all along that this must be an electrical or mechanical malfunction somewhere in his controls.
@pville5548
3 жыл бұрын
Can't the actual elevator (Large flying surface compared to trim tabs) overcome the small amount of force the trim tabs apply?
@gordonrichardson2972
3 жыл бұрын
I commented earlier that airspeed has a large effect on elevator control forces and trim tab effects. Juan's description omits this factor.
@unknownname7731
3 жыл бұрын
Ok I’m a taildragger pilot and I’ll chime in. Most pilots exercise the sticks normal travel to check the ailerons & elevator during engine warm up. I feel he lost elevator control from a cable, pushrod, or cotter pin. Something in the elevator control went wrong. My heart goes out to his family. Also most taildragger pilots are active on their stick controls when they taxi because you have to “ fly them all the way to the hangar “.
@DennisGentry
3 жыл бұрын
I can’t believe that he couldn’t overpower any trim setting at these low speeds He would have been pushing for his life as the nose came up. It’s a certification requirement, and even if the SIAI fudged it a bit, maybe you couldn’t overpower it at cruise speed, but this was so slow that the stick forces have to have been “reasonable” for a strong guy like him.
@JediOfTheRepublic
3 жыл бұрын
You are at your highest RPM setting when taking off, that’s why.
@DennisGentry
3 жыл бұрын
@@JediOfTheRepublic I’ve flown a couple of higher HP piston singles (285 and 320) and what really makes a difference on the forces exerted by trim is airspeed. There’s a small effect from the slipstream on takeoff, but it’s definitely secondary to airspeed. I’d like to hear from an SIAI Marchetti pilot to see what the control forces are like and how hard it is to overcome runaway trim. I had one incident with runaway trim in a Mooney at cruise in IMC that required quite a bit of force to overcome, but as I slowed down to maneuvering speed, it became reasonable and I was then able to at least pull the circuit breaker and use the manual trim wheel.
@X85283
3 жыл бұрын
@@JediOfTheRepublic No. Propwash isn't nothing but he definitely should have been able to overcome the trim.
@KBS117
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, any trim setting should be manageable at those slow airspeeds.. something else happened. Sabatoge and elimination of a fierce warrior?
@pittss2c601
2 жыл бұрын
@@JediOfTheRepublic Have you watched aerobatic pilots? They are out of trim and at full power during their entire airshow exhibition. We always overpower our trim constantly at all power settings.
@joetroyner
3 жыл бұрын
That control lock was very well designed. Even if you had a total brake failure, you would not be able to even fit your legs in there without it being very obvious that the lock was engaged..
@csolivais1979
3 жыл бұрын
Well, I think the theory with that was the control lock was on the front, and he was flying for the rear seat
@robinrother1799
3 жыл бұрын
(Marchetti owner but different model) This is a complete tragedy. I remember reading about a Falco that had nose-up trim that the pilot could not overpower. What he did, and survived, was to bank and allow the nose-up trim to keep him in a turn while he figured out what to do. He went around until he was able to cobble together a landing. I never forgot that incident, and it came back to me when I saw the initial footage of the crash.
@SeaMonkey137
3 жыл бұрын
Best theory yet. I remember being mildly surprised in my primary days on learning that nose-down trim deflected the elevator tab up, opposite the elevator's movements.
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