Verse reference map: in many instances we come back to a verse after it is first discussed. I only included the first time a passage is brought up in this map. Acts 2 vs 36-41 - 2:56 Matthew 3 vs 11 - 8:30 Mark 1 vs 4-5 - 11:00 Luke 24 vs 44-49 - 15:34 Acts 10 vs 43-48 - 29:09 Acts 11 vs 15 - 32:49 Eph 1 vs 13, 2 Cor 1 vs 22 - 45:07 Colossians 2 6-12 - 59:53 Romans 2 vs 23 - 01:06:23 Acts 8 vs 38-39 - 01:22:09 Thief on the Cross (Luke 23 vs 39-43, Mark 15 vs 32, Matthew 27 vs 41-44) 01:24:53 Hebrews 9 vs 16-18 - 01:28:33 Romans 4 vs 23-25 - 01:46:10 and 03:10:59 Acts 18 vs 24-28 - 01:59:40 Acts 19 vs 1-5 - 02:07:43 Romans 5 vs 20 through 6 vs 4 - 02:17:18 Romans 6 vs 15-17 - 02:19:20 Romans 2 vs 26-29 - 02:24:34 1 Cor 12 vs 13 - 02:26:58 Romans 1 vs 5 - 02:32:58 Romans 16 vs 26 - 02:34:14 Romans 4 - 03:10:12 Romans 10 vs 9-13 - 02:39:03 Acts 22 vs 16 - 02:54:12 Joel 2 vs 32 - 02:56:47 Acts 22 - 02:58:15 Acts 9 vs 18-19 - 03:04:47 Gen 4 vs 26, 21 vs 33, Acts 2 vs 21, 7 vs 59, 1 Cor 1 vs 2, 2 Tim 2 vs 22 - 03:05:57 Hebrews 11 vs 8-9 - 03:14:26 Matt 18 vs 18-20 - 03:43:10 1 Peter 3 vs 18-22 - 03:52:51
@charlieparks2015
6 жыл бұрын
Mike Winger thanks for the listing
@MiriBenii
6 жыл бұрын
When the video started i thought, wow 4h+, this is not very practical. I was going to suggest some shorter videos but this also works fine.
@lalumierehuguenote
6 жыл бұрын
Pretty cool. Thanks
@Zifoduk
6 жыл бұрын
Pin the comment so it stays at the very top, because for me its all the way down near the bottom of the comments section
@MikeWinger
6 жыл бұрын
I’m not sure why that is because I did pin it already. Perhaps it’s a glitch.
@YankeeStacking
10 ай бұрын
Here’s an insidious aspect of baptismal regeneration…and I’ve experienced this first hand! Follow their logic to a very scary conclusion: Them: You must be baptized to be saved. Me: Well, I was baptized at a later time after repenting, confessing, and accepting the Gospel by grace through faith. Them: Then you didn’t believe that your act of baptism saved you? Me: No. My baptism was a necessary act of obedience after salvation symbolizing new birth through the resurrection of Christ. Them: Then you trusted in “another gospel” and that baptism doesn’t count. It was just a washing of your outward body. Me: Then in your eyes I’m not saved? Them: Nope. Not just in my eyes, but in the view of scripture. Me: Then how do I get baptized for REAL? Them: You must be baptized again…by someone who believes and teaches baptismal regeneration. Me: Who? Them: Our church. Me: So no one has gotten saved in any other Christian church teaching against baptismal regeneration? Them: Nope. Me: So no one baptized over two thousand years of church history in churches who do not teach baptismal regeneration we’re ever truly saved? Them: Nope. 🤨
@natewilson111
2 ай бұрын
That's not a far-fetched viewpoint from the "salvation via baptizing" crowd. Weirdly (and legalistically) the same folks say that someone can accept Christ, but if they die before a chance to be baptized, they will go to hell. 🤷🤷
@YankeeStacking
2 ай бұрын
@@natewilson111 Yes. Thief on the cross? Hell…no wait…that’s DIFFERENT cuz JESUS saved him personally-in the flesh, so no baptism necessary in that case. But now that Jesus is resurrected? BAPTISM IS MANDATORY, OR IT’S HELL FOR YOU! Never made sense to me.
@natewilson111
2 ай бұрын
@@YankeeStacking I agree. It's just shades of "do the thing to achieve salvation"
@tylerhare
3 жыл бұрын
One of the most admirable aspects of this debate: before combatting many of each other’s points they clarify the point to make sure they are addressing what was actually said instead of misrepresenting each other. Great example of unity in disagreement
@TheTuttleCrew
3 күн бұрын
Mike often interuppted this guy.... Not cool!
@a.kay.c
5 жыл бұрын
I really commend you both for doing this. I think this is a perfect example of what Christians should look like when debating beliefs.
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
4 жыл бұрын
anónimo2323 the bottom line is there is a truth and there is a lie
@lizicadumitru9683
4 жыл бұрын
@@anonimo-um2ng This is a conversation, not division.
@BeckeyGirard
3 жыл бұрын
RIGHT! Isn't there so much to be learned from both sides?
@CynHicks
3 жыл бұрын
@@anonimo-um2ng Are you an atheists?
@tylercallagher3485
3 жыл бұрын
@@anonimo-um2ng there isn't much division at all, most denominations vary only on secondary doctrines
@TRNoble77
4 жыл бұрын
I am in my first hour to the debate, and I just wanted to say I really appreciate both of you, how you speak to each other, and if there is confusion or a disagreement, the kind way you both are speaking, how you both work through transitioning to another point, thank you. It's encouraging and edifying to watch this.
@gregcunningham9585
3 жыл бұрын
They are friends thats good I've seen debates where they acted very ungodly
@samuelcarvalho3691
3 жыл бұрын
More than learning about baptism, I think this video is such a beautiful example of how Christians can respectfully and lovingly talk about their secondary differences. Kuddos to both you guys. Watching you guys debate is so heart warming.
@timothyseals3791
3 жыл бұрын
But who do you think is right on salvation? It can not be both of them.
@Keepitoriginalministry
6 ай бұрын
It’s secondary 🤔 so baptism not a salvation issue. I agree 😂
@Christiansstillstruggle
5 ай бұрын
Definitely not secondary lol 😂😂 they are speaking about whether water baptism SAVES YOU FROM HELL or not.
@samuelcarvalho3691
5 ай бұрын
@@Christiansstillstruggle OK bro...
@johnreus3680
6 жыл бұрын
Good stuff, fellas. I really appreciate the respectful debate. I find myself somewhere in the middle of this topic. I’m with Mike where clearly there are examples of salvation coming without baptism, so I don’t believe it to be impossible at all for God to save without it. I don’t think we should view baptism as limiting God’s ability to save. But with that being said, I also believe that the Bible teaches that baptism is for the removal of sins. What’s been interesting to me has been studying out what believers in the first several centuries believed baptism to be, and they unanimously believed it to be how people received forgiveness of their sins. I don’t think we should be so focused on how often God saves those who haven’t been baptized, but simply focused on obeying and teaching the biblical view on salvation and trusting that God’s sovereignty will carry out love and justice. I certainly hope and believe that that can happen without baptism, but it doesn’t mean that it normally does. Anyway that’s just my humble opinion on things that I’ve been studying out recently.
@Rejoran
5 жыл бұрын
John Reus, I also agree that in the first several centuries they unanimously believed baptism to be how people received forgiveness of their sins. Before infant baptism got started baptism was for forgiveness of sins for those old enough to have committed sins This quote from Justin Martyr is approximately A.D. 155, about fifty-five years after the Apostle John died: And for [water baptism] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed. (Justin, First Apology 61) Justin was born around 100 AD and was converted around age 30 AD, which makes this belief as early as 30 years after John died. Since he said he learned this from the Apostles, then this is what the Apostles taught.
@Concatenate
5 жыл бұрын
Let's follow some logic here. "I’m with Mike where clearly there are examples of salvation coming without baptism, so I don’t believe it to be impossible at all for God to save without it." Well, we know for certain one thing. God cannot lie, Titus 1:2. So the question then becomes, did God command baptism and what is baptism for? "But with that being said, I also believe that the Bible teaches that baptism is for the removal of sins." Correct. Can a person be saved without having his/her sins removed? I thought we needed our sins to be washed away by the blood of Christ in order to be acceptable by God? "I certainly hope and believe that that can happen without baptism, but it doesn’t mean that it normally does." Why would you hope that something can happen without baptism if God commands it? I don't understand that thought process at all. Shouldn't we joy in what God said? Shouldn't we joy in doing the things God wants us to do? Isn't that part of being transformed and becoming a new creature in Him? The logic just doesn't make sense to me. On one hand you're saying it's not impossible for God to save without a baptism He commanded and told us removes sins, but then you hope people can be saved without it anyway? I see a lot of seeing things from our perspective and not seeing things enough from God's perspective (at least insofar as much as we can in these human bodies).
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
5 жыл бұрын
John Reus Luke 24:47 Jesus said repentance is for the forgiveness of sins
@talyalazarlibi4456
5 жыл бұрын
If you look at Numbers 21:8, preface God had punished the children of Israel by bringing in snakes and killing the people! They cried to the Lord and God then told Moses to make a bronze snake vs 8, and everyone who would look at it would be saved! Therefore the children of Israel were saved and lived IF they looked at the snake! God had stipulations for saving there! Such is the term of baptism as well. Mark 16:15-16 those who are baptized shall be saved, I did not quote the whole passage, we are commanded to be baptized, my belief according to scripture! God bless
@lizicadumitru9683
4 жыл бұрын
@@Concatenate Seems scripture is tripping us up. Does baptism wash away sins? Is it repentance? Is it the blood of Christ? As Mike said, baptism is sufficient but not necessary. This is why the thief on the cross could be saved but Peter told Cornelius and his peeps to be baptized after receiving the spirit. The question could be asked: if Cornelius denied being baptized, how would Peter have taken that?
@YankeeStacking
10 ай бұрын
@3:14:26 The term “Faith” must be defined biblically. Does faith require an outward action of obedience in order for it to be true faith? THEN we can ask if one justified by faith through the blood of Jesus PRIOR to ANY outward action of obedience (including baptism). I contend faith does not require ANY outward action of obedience to be saving faith. I come to that conclusion from reading the entirety of scripture cover to cover dozens of times.
@kkdoc7864
4 жыл бұрын
This is my experience watching an in dwelling of the Holy Spirit well before baptism or outward expression of faith. As Americans, my younger atheist sister and I were together in a bed and breakfast in Paris. She was reading a Japanese novel. I was listening to a recorded church sermon. All of a sudden, she sat up in bed and placed her hand over her chest and had a certain glow, an expression of uncertainty, but joy saying “I feel like I’m all filled up. Like I don’t need to take another breath”. When I recognized those “ buzz words” I declared it was the Holy Spirit. Without hesitation, she KNEW and acknowledged that’s what was happening. We danced around the room in joy. From her experience she says she was in the middle of a rapidly flowing stream leading to falls but could easily have stepped out onto a bank, but she decided to go with it and not step out. The next morning, she went outside and the world looked completely different to her even the colors. She went back home to her husband but said nothing about the experience. About 2 weeks later he sits her down having noticed she had changed, and she tearfully told him what happened and that she could “never go back” hoping he would come along side her. That did happen, both were baptized soon after and she became a faithful worship leader. I was so blessed by being allowed to see this happen right in front of me. She had already read some scripture previously trying to help her husband with depression issues, but never expressed any belief. So even though tongues were not evidenced, there is no question I saw something very similar to what happened to Cornelius. It was AMAZING. !!!
@giovanni545
3 жыл бұрын
Thats increadible can you please go into more detail about ur sister experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit? Also what do you you mean by the "Buzz sound"? And i also want to know does your sister speak to the Holy Spirit ? Like how does she talk and listen to Him?
@kkdoc7864
3 жыл бұрын
@@giovanni545 “Buzz words” means special words that signify a particular event or refer to a special descriptive experience. For example, when she said, “I feel like I don’t have to take another breath” or that she was “ filled up”, she had no idea that those descriptive words are in the Bible about the Holy Spirit, but I did, and that’s how I recognized what was happening. None of us get regular communications and revelations from the Holy Spirit. This event was a one time “baptism of the Holy Spirit” that happened suddenly and without provocation. God just decided to touch her that evening and she was changed forever. She also did not speak in tongues which proves that is not necessary or proof of salvation. The cool thing was that God allowed me to witness her sudden transformation and for me to tell the world how it happened. Many people think you have to be baptized to be filled with the Holy Spirit ( which by itself is evidence of salvation) or that you have to speak in tongues as proof, but as in Acts as with Cornelius, my sister received the in dwelling of God Himself by His sovereign choice and not by rituals or rules made up by some theologians.
@caviestcaveman8691
3 жыл бұрын
@@kkdoc7864 I would like to add i believe i am in a similar situation i encountered my first real gf a few years ago and she loved church well we started going (as I look back now I will not lie to myself I went because of her) but one day before church she asked me have you felt Jesus yet? I had a moment of im not gonna lie this is the woman I'd marry not about that life and I said honestly no like it was interesting to listen and understand but it seemed so not real to me. And thank you lord. That same service I got picked out like a light bulb and was touched and just threw myself at the altar and that was the holy ghost no doubt it wasn't your normal goosebumps no uncontrollable body i felt like jello. Never been baptized but as I am writing this I've been learning more about baptizing and I want to be baptized I will be baptized to show my dying to old self I've felt so condemned and this is where I have been lead. I have been so blessed in my life and have hated myself for not understanding why I haven't done anything to deserve it and its so hard to understand. He forgives if you trust with all your ❤
@kkdoc7864
3 жыл бұрын
@@caviestcaveman8691 what a beautiful story. To be touched by God in such a way. You can never go back to your old self once that happens. Thank you so much for sharing your walk. One thing you should do is get yourself into the Bible as much as possible so that you can tell when whatever you’re hearing from others is really true or not. Jesus said that “ Man cannot live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God”. That means if you don’t spend as much time in His Wird as you do eating food, you are actually starving spiritually. God bless you!
@SpotterVideo
2 жыл бұрын
The Word “Baptize”: Based on Luke 3:16, and John 1:33, and Acts 11:15-16, the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water. The Holy Spirit is the master teacher promised to New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34, and John 14:26, and is found fulfilled in Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27. Unfortunately, many modern Christians see water when they read the word "baptize" in the text. Based on the above, what is the one baptism of our faith found in the passage below? How many times is the word "Spirit" found in the passage, and how many times is the word "water" found in the passage? Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, “baptize” KJV Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Mar_1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Joh_1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 1Co_1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
@Julie-ve4zo
6 жыл бұрын
Thanks to both of you for being patient with each other and sincerely trying to understand what the other was saying. I believe there would be fewer divisions if more Christian's did this.
@FBCTrona
Жыл бұрын
Now both of them believe your saved a different way. Do you then believe they are both saved?
@andrekershaw6244
3 жыл бұрын
There are some good-natured and humorous jabs in here, but really this is THE most cordial debate I have ever heard. Regardless of which case I find more persuasive, I think both gentlemen are really modelling Christ in how they engage with each other.
@Texascodecase
8 ай бұрын
Great debate! Enjoyed both sides.
@YankeeStacking
10 ай бұрын
@3:48:00 Mike, I think the argument he’s making of a “disciple” is that they need to both be BAPTIZED and OBEY all that has been taught them. Not that one has to be taught everything and obey it ALL right away, but that a disciple must be taught that they MUST obey all that they learn from Jesus’s teachings. (Philippians 3:16) Whatever light one has-even when their an immature Christian-they obey.
@BellDavidE
3 жыл бұрын
This was awesome. Not only informative, but I love the spirit in which it was done. Kudos to both of you!
@SpotterVideo
2 жыл бұрын
The Word “Baptize”: Based on Luke 3:16, and John 1:33, and Acts 11:15-16, the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water. The Holy Spirit is the master teacher promised to New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34, and John 14:26, and is found fulfilled in Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27. Unfortunately, many modern Christians see water when they read the word "baptize" in the text. Based on the above, what is the one baptism of our faith found in the passage below? How many times is the word "Spirit" found in the passage, and how many times is the word "water" found in the passage? Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, “baptize” KJV Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Mar_1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Joh_1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 1Co_1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
@bcon795
Жыл бұрын
@@SpotterVideo spot on
@justjosie8963
6 жыл бұрын
Ahh, that's another thing I like about your videos, no long introduction! Love how you think.
@RG-zw5wc
3 жыл бұрын
Me too. Alot of you tubers spend forrevverr on the into. Like come on, get on with it already 🤣
@pattisnee6932
3 жыл бұрын
This was a great, respectful debate. I have always believed baptism to be necessary for salvation. I acknowledge that Pastor Mike makes some very good points in regard to Cornelius. I had always took the speaking in tongues as the way God communicated to Peter and the Jews, that Gentiles were now accepted into the Church without converting to Judaism, and that it was not indicative of salvation - they were then Baptized right away as this indicated they were acceptable as is and should be Baptized. I understand that the process of being immersed in water in and of itself is meaningless if there is no faith, belief, confession, repentance. I guess my main problem is not arguing over whether God can save someone without Baptism in a special circumstance - certainly or at what point in the process are you actually saved, but I do have a problem with only having people pray the sinner's prayer to get saved, and not even mentioning Baptism which is often the case. When you look at all of the cases of conversion in Acts - it is the pattern that people believed, were convicted and repented and right away were Baptized. They would take them that very hour as in the case of the Philipian jailer - in the middle of the night and Baptize them. In Acts 2 - 3,000 people were Baptized right then and there - if it was fine to just say the sinner's prayer and get Baptized later when it was more convenient, why? I just think Baptism is a very important piece of the conversion process and it should not be dismissed or pushed off for some time later as an afterthought. I appreciate that Pastor Mike emphasizes the importance of getting Baptized right away upon coming to Faith in Christ. Also with Paul - he had an encounter with the risen Jesus and in his case they did wait several days, but he was gently chided about tarrying and commanded to arise and be baptized and wash away your sins. Another point - when we are told that he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, this shows the importance of baptism. I don't get the idea that because it says if you don't believe you'll be damned but doesn't specifically say if you aren't baptized you'll be damned. Baptism without belief is meaningless, but if you truly believe you will follow that up with getting Baptized if able or certainly should. I think it's very important to follow the scriptural examples on Baptism.
@JivTurky1986
3 жыл бұрын
Have you been baptized?
@timothyseals3791
3 жыл бұрын
Well said Patti.
@timothyseals3791
3 жыл бұрын
@@JivTurky1986 I have.
@JivTurky1986
3 жыл бұрын
@@timothyseals3791 “in the name of Jesus” or “Father, Son, Holy Ghost”?
@timothyseals3791
3 жыл бұрын
@@JivTurky1986 It doesn't matter which one. It is not a formula that you must say specifically. But the bible is clear that we must be water baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.
@amandawestbrook2612
Жыл бұрын
Thank you, Mike, for making this video and having this debate. I am very familiar with his argument of baptismal regeneration. This is a belief that many hold very strongly. You responded so well, keeping everything in context and consistent with scripture. I believe you very clearly proved that there's no case for it outside of the framework he presents.
@evabreneisen9086
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks so much. I loved the respectful behavior and focused discussions and the content was just what I was looking for.
@Narrow-Pather
5 жыл бұрын
Jesus Christ was baptized, I'm baptized. I was going to post verses but Pastor Winger has already posted them. We may not always understand why Jesus told us to do something, but we'd best do it. Amen
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
3 жыл бұрын
You could write a book about what we were told to do...oh wait
@wisconsinwoodsman1987
Жыл бұрын
Jewish tradition was to be washed clean for being a priest and before preaching. Jesus was being prepared for his earthly ministry. Once He rose, his priestly work was finished. He could sit down to the right of the Father. Salvation is by faith and nothing else. If peeps want to get baptized, great! I'm baptized, but it is not for my salvation.
@loeweal5641
Жыл бұрын
@@wisconsinwoodsman1987 You could say the same about repentance. Because repentance was also part of Jewish tradition. It´s therefore also not necessary since it´s work., right?
@danielbu2611
11 ай бұрын
@@wisconsinwoodsman1987 "By grace not by works of the LAW". This is not disregarding trusting and obeying Jesus. There are around ten things that Paul and Peter specifically say happen when we are immersed including being born again and having your sins washed away (Acts 22: 16). This is not figurative language. In all cases, it's "when you were immersed, this happened". So therefore, if you cannot say you have been immersed, you cannot say any of those things have happened. Read them for yourself. Rom 6: 2-8 Col 2: 10-12 Gal 3: 26-29 1 Pet 3: 18-21 Titus 3: 4-5
@teeemm9456
7 ай бұрын
@@danielbu2611 Except water never did anything except be symbolic. Baptism is a spiritual component of proclaimed Faith, water is not a requirement. If you have no Faith then you can't be really baptized, but you can be baptized in water. Faith is what unites us with Christ, so if we're united to Him, then it's a spiritual connection of baptism in that union the same as being spiritual circumsized.
@amybee40
5 жыл бұрын
I would like to share my experience here. I'm 50, and I accepted Christ at the age of 4. (I was a very serious child.) I was not baptized, because my parents were Salvation Army officers, and the SA church does not do baptisms at all. No one ever mentioned the possibility to me until years later. Meanwhile, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit at the age of 8, and received the gift of tongues at that time. (Elders had come to the house to pray for my parents, so they prayed for me too.) Ten years later during college I finally got baptized, on Easter Sunday. It was a very moving experience.
@abhishekchakraborty6492
5 жыл бұрын
You accepted christ at the age of 4 ??
@amybee40
3 жыл бұрын
@@abhishekchakraborty6492 Yeah.
@giovanni545
3 жыл бұрын
Wait can you explain me more about the Baptisim of The Holy Spirit, like what was it like? And why did you recive the baptisim of the Holy Spirit at age 8 but tou knew God at age of 4?
@robertchristie381
2 жыл бұрын
2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9 states when Christ comes back he will come with flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God and on them that obey not the gospel of our lord Jesus Christ. If you don't know your in trouble, if you do know but haven't obeyed your in trouble. Baptism is the only way to obey the gospel. Death,burial and resurrection. We die, we are buried in water and rise saved. You have faith in the Operation of God. You must obey the gospel.
@duardbandy
2 ай бұрын
I have begun to think of baptism as a wedding celebration of our union with the Spirit of God. Baptism of the Spirit is absolutely required. This is how we are born again in the Spirit. Water baptism is part of the wedding celebration and should always happen but not absolutely required. The union our of Spirit being born again,baptized in the spirit, absolutely must happen and required. The wedding is for the union. Union doesn't happen because of the wedding. The wedding happens because there is union taking place. Some people lose sight of the groom and the bride the a union. So it's like having a wedding celebration without a bride and groom.
@JuanGonzalez-kb3gm
2 ай бұрын
Beautiful said! Why would baptism just be a symbol, a symbol that we are Christians for everyone to see? A lot of people were baptized by themselves without other Christians.
@alanylizardo
4 жыл бұрын
this question has been plaguing me as a new christian , if i am really saved because i haven't been baptized yet! thanks for the great education that comes straight from the scripture
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
4 жыл бұрын
You’re saved when you trust in the finished works of Jesus
@aidanmcmanus2752
4 жыл бұрын
If you believe in Jesus and have confessed Him (Rom. 10: 9-10; Acts 8:36-37), then repent and be baptized in His name for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:36-39). So yes, you need to be baptized to be saved. That must be in your mind and heart before you get baptized (Acts 2:40-41).
@Sbock86
4 жыл бұрын
@risingStar why are you using a text where Paul was trying to emphasise unity in a Church full of "saved" people to explain what somebody must do to be saved? It says one Spirit. Capital S (referring to Holy Spirit). One Baptism. Water. Alany, it is a controversial topic because Satan hates it when people get baptised because it means deliverance from their past, the enemy and their sins. This is why their is such utter confusion. Please study the bible for yourself and you will find when somebody wanted to become a Christian the disciples baptised them immediately. Also, Jesus commanded it. John the Baptist commanded it. Peter commanded it. Jesus linked it to salvation. Mark 16:16. Peter linked it to salvation. 1 Peter 3:21. Paul recollected and confirmed Ananias linking it to salvation. Acts 22:16. These are all parts of the Bible where baptism is linked with the word "saved". I don't know how much clearer it can get. Jesus said you must be born out of water and out of Spirit to enter the kingdom.
@Sbock86
4 жыл бұрын
@risingStar I ain't letting down bud. Doctrines like the one you are sharing are robbing the church and I'm done with it. Shame you think it's a laughing matter - yes I agree, you can have the Holy Spirit before water baptism.
@vibeauxssxuaebiv3489
3 жыл бұрын
@@Sbock86 So you can have the Holy Spirit before baptism, but you need baptism to be saved?
@eversosleight
6 жыл бұрын
This debate appears as though you guys really sought to exhaust Scripture on this matter. This debate is important because it tackles works-based salvation head on. Baptism has a place in the believers life but it is not configured in a salvific equation. As Mike has said before in another video, "We don't get baptized to be saved, but because we are saved we get baptized."
@charlieparks2015
6 жыл бұрын
Jorge Anido amen
@davidseoulbrutha5625
6 жыл бұрын
No, in order to be saved you must be baptised first once you realize Christ. It doesn't matter how long you go to church and say I love Jesus pray to Jesus, if you have not been baptized of water and Spirit(born again ) you can't see the kingdom of heaven. Not my words but Jesus's.
@bf1610
6 жыл бұрын
@James Johnson it is work based salvation, the problem you have is failing to understand who is doing the work. colossians 2: 11-13. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, you see God does the work, we just obey his commands mark 16:16 hope this clears things up for you!
@graceambassador65
5 жыл бұрын
Grace And Peace. "Exhaust" *The Scriptures!* ? i will give it my Best Shot - Ready?: The REAL question NOBODY "answers" should be: *Does God "Require water" Today,* *Under GRACE!* ? Grace And Peace. appreciate your love for *The LORD JESUS CHRIST!* Praying humbly for *ONE "fellowship" Concern!* So, Just *ONE Important* question: *Does God "Require* water" baptism, Today, *Under HIS GRACE!* ? After my THREE "water" baptismS (ALL in "error"), my personal *(GRACE!)* "view" of The *Truth About: ALL Of God's "BaptismS!"* what think ye? Q: *What Does "ALL Of God's Word" Teach On This Important Doctrine?* And, Please, Be *RICHLY Blessed!:* *GRACE/Peace From God, The Father, And, From The LORD JESUS CHRIST!* Note: without *God's Holy Spirit,* it will Be IMPOSSIBLE to "understand" *God's BaptismS Doctrine (1 Corinthians 2 : 13-14!),* so, *The Following!* Must Occur FIRST! Amen?: *God's GREATEST News Ever = HIS Gospel Of The Amazing GRACE Of God!* For ALL who have NOT YET *Been WASHED IN THE BLOOD!* Do you Desire ETERNAL Condemnation? If so, then just please "remain" as you are - In "UNbelief": 😢 ↓ (Luke 18 : 11-12!) for ALL others who wish to be "humble" ♫😇↑ (Luke 18 : 13-14!): *FAITH Cometh By hearing, And hearing By The Word Of God!:* Amen?: *(ALL Scriptures From God's Preserved WORD = KJV! ##)* *The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God! = God's ETERNAL Salvation! By:* 100% faith (heart belief, trust!) in *The LORD JESUS CHRIST,* *In HIS Blood, And In HIS Resurrection! = God's ETERNAL Life!!* *(Romans 10 : 17; 1 Corinthians 15 : 1-4 And Ephesians 2 : 5-10!)* *Good Works Will Not Save you, But Will Get you Rewards At:* *The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST! (1 Corinthians 3 : 8-15!)* ***Note1: Verse 15! Teaches ETERNAL SALVATION "Despite Loss!"*** ***Note2: IF you just BELIEVED This AND your Are The LAST "member"* *Of The Body Of CHRIST, we Are Going To Be Raptured Outta Here,* *so, learn This Right NOW, And you Will Receive A crown At Judgment!:*** *"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,* *Which The LORD, The Righteous Judge, Shall Give me At That Day:* *And not to me only, but unto All them also that love HIS Appearing!"* *(2 Timothy 4 : 8!)* Amen? --------------------------------------------- IF you are in any "religion" with ONE "false doctrine," it is UNclean!, Please *Obey God, WHO Commands:* *"Wherefore Come Out from among them, and be ye Separate, Saith* *The LORD, And touch not the unclean thing; and I Will Receive you,* *And Will Be A Father Unto you, and ye Shall Be MY sons and daughters,* *Saith The LORD Almighty!" (2 Corinthians 6 : 17!)* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Therefore: *God's ETERNAL Salvation Is THE Best Motivation For "true"* *believers to serve God "out of love," being SAVED For ETERNITY!* rather than "serving out of FEAR" of "losing Probationary" salvation!: *PEACE From The Great God And Saviour, JESUS CHRIST!:* *"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power,* *And of love, and of a sound mind!" (1 Timothy 1 : 7!)* Surely, *Gratitude To God For HIS UNSPEAKABLE Gift is in order DAILY!* Amen? ------------------------------------------------------------------- continued in *ALL Of God's THIRTEEN (13) Scriptural Baptisms!...*
@markmacmac8957
5 жыл бұрын
if one says the scripture commands us to be babtized then were promoting works based salvation.. .reallly think that is a position that goes against apostolic doctrine and that is acceptable in most churchs today but doesn't make it right or truth.
@JonathanLaRiviere
6 жыл бұрын
3:18:18 I’m glad Dean was willing to look back at the point made about Abraham. Mike made a good point and was polite enough about it that his opponent admitted it was a good point.
@JonathanLaRiviere
6 жыл бұрын
3:50:30 another place where Dean concedes a point that reveals his inconsistency. Dean then mistakenly tries to jump back and make his erroneous point, but kudos to a good discussion!
@akkedutten
Ай бұрын
Baptism is an outward manifestation of the inward conviction
@engineer775
3 жыл бұрын
What if we acknowledged Ephesians ch4v5 and then realized the Holy Spirit baptizes you into the body of Christ and it has nothing to do with water?
@timothyseals3791
3 жыл бұрын
What baptism is commanded in Matthew 28:19? Water or Holy Spirit baptism?
@timothyseals3791
3 жыл бұрын
What baptism is in these verses? Jn 3:3-5; Ro 6:3-7; Ga 3:27; Col 2:11-13
@kac0404
3 жыл бұрын
The first thing one should observe is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was never given as a command to be administered by man, nor was it to be obeyed by man. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was a promise to be received by certain men chosen for a certain purpose. When Jesus spoke on the subject between His resurrection and His ascension, He appeared to the chosen apostles, speaking to them things concerning the kingdom of God (Acts 1:1-3). Among the things spoken to them were the following words: “ … wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” {He said,} “you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now” (Acts 1:4-5 NAS). Overjoyed at this statement they asked, “ … Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6 NAS). To this question Jesus replied with the following promise, “ … It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth” (Acts 1:7-8 NAS). It is clear that while John could and did baptize in water it was Christ, and only Christ, who would baptize with the Holy Spirit. Another fundamental thing to be noticed here is that John did not mean to include all disciples, with reference to being baptized in the Holy Spirit; neither did he mean that all of the multitude, which heard him, would receive the baptism of fire. He simply made a prophetic declaration, regarding these matters, to the multitudes that heard him.
@bornagainalex2250
2 жыл бұрын
My heart stopped for a little bit when I was young, I was saved and I wasn’t baptized. I saw a beautiful Narrow Open Door with light coming out of it. That is my testimony that No, you don’t need to be baptized to be Saved. But it’s a great thing to do.
@JxT1957
2 жыл бұрын
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ - 1st peter 3:21
@fernandoperez8587
2 жыл бұрын
It is literally commanded in the great commission. We are to baptize and teach the gospel, the commandments of Christ. That's it. Everything else falls into those two things. In Acts there is a pattern of faith/belief and immediate baptism.
@mkovis8587
2 жыл бұрын
@@fernandoperez8587 Receiving and being sealed with the Holy Spirit (through hearing, understanding and believing the gospel) is also a baptism, isn't it? Ephesians 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Acts 10:43-45 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 1:16-18 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. [Paul was ready to go to Hell if it would've saved his people from the eternal suffering there. Surely he would've kept baptizing if it was required for salvation? How much clearer could've he made that the salvation comes by faith in what Jesus Christ did on the cross] 1 Corinthians 15 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures notice how it doesn't say on the verse 2 "unless ye have believed in vain or if you didn't get water baptized" Romans 10 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 3: 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
@fernandoperez8587
2 жыл бұрын
@@mkovis8587 1) That was a special occasion and one where God showed He approved of gentiles being saved apart from the mosaic law. Acts 2 was the Jewish Pentecost, Acts 8 was the Samaritans Pentecost and Acts 10 is the gentile Pentecost. 2) In Acts 16 the jailer ask Paul what must he do to be saved and says believe. And when he believed he was baptized. In Acts 19 Paul finds believers that have yet to be baptized into Christ and subsequently recieve the Holy Spirit. Paul it seems baptism was indeed important to Paul and his understand of what is needed in the Christian life because he has them baptized right there. Just because Paul himself did not baptize does not mean others with him did not. All those who believed in the book of Acts were immediately baptized. 3) For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved ... for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” - Romans 10:10-13 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ - Acts 22:16 It was understood one confessed Christ and call on the Lord at baptism saving them. We see it here in Acts 2 too. [Paul speaking and quoting Joel to the Jewish diaspora gathered in Jerusalem for the feast Pentecost] And it shall come to pass that everyone who CALLS UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.’ ... Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. - Acts 2:14-41 Paul and the crowd believed, then after instruction repented of their sins in their baptism washing and forgiving their sins. Also Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, - 1 Peter 3:21 It's the confession, repentance, appealing and calling on God in baptism that saves. Something like the Jesus prayer would meet all that Lord Jesus Son of God (confessing Christ as Lord and calling on Him) have mercy on me a sinner (repentance and appealing to God, Christ)
@fernandoperez8587
2 жыл бұрын
@@mkovis8587 One more thing for clarification and that is that really salvation is a package deal that has its start and continues everyday. Yes, at the point of faith we are justified and then at confession and repentance in baptism we are saved.
@gunney74
2 жыл бұрын
So cool to see this. I went to college with Dean and I see him watching my favorite KZitem pastor
@MoonPhaze5
Жыл бұрын
If water has ANY part of our salvation, then Jesus died in vain, and his blood being poured out for us was insufficient.
@fernandoperez8587
11 ай бұрын
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of WATER with the word, - Ephesians 5:25-26 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure WATER. - Hebrews 10:22
@suem5987
5 жыл бұрын
Thank you brother for arguing fair and with love and respect.
@rogerboyd7185
4 жыл бұрын
God can save whomever he wants to. He will show mercy here he wants to show it. In obedience be baptized. Nothing saves in and of itself. Only Jesus Saves.
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
4 жыл бұрын
@risingStar you are absolutely correct
@chiyolioncourt
3 жыл бұрын
If God can save whomever he wants to, then what about those who righteously walks... If he doesn't want to save them then He won't save them? Because God can choose whomever he wants right? So basically even if in the sight of God you walk righteously it doesn't matter because He will decide whether you get to be with Him in heaven or not, because He can choose. Just a thought.
@Homestead_Ireland
3 жыл бұрын
Amen!!!
@Homestead_Ireland
3 жыл бұрын
@@chiyolioncourt You get saved not by works but by faith in Him. 'But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name' John 1:12
@timothyseals3791
3 жыл бұрын
@risingStar Have you been water baptized?
@mickknight6963
Жыл бұрын
This is good! It is several yrs old, but I'm just listening. He is asking Mike, and I'm now just before and @ 1:24, "where do you see baptism being talked about in scripture in terms of being buried and raised again and not talking about water baptism?" Well, that word baptize means to "emerse or to bury". And many verses speak of Spirit baptism, baptism into Christ and into the body of Christ, and into the Holy Spirit, which are the same. Here are some: Matt. 3:11, Acts 1:5, 1 Peter 3:21, 1 Cor. 12:13, Gal. 3:27 to name but a few. I also have used the thief on the cross, in Luke 23:39-43, and in Acts 10, Cornelius and his family and neighbors being saved, received the Holy Spirit before getting into the water, both as prime examples of salvation before baptism. And these are very serious truths that are problematic to the "Baptism is part of the gospel, teaching." Again, these go along perfectly with the Bible definitions of the Gospel, and the preaching of the apostles being void of baptism. And Mike is making good points concerning when is repentance taking place? Someone really can't repent now and trust Jesus with all of their heart, if it's not real until they can find a preacher, fill a baptistry, or find a creek, and get in the water? And then, is it just before, or during or after you come up? This kind of absurdity is just found nowhere in scripture. These scriptures are saying that we have been baptized or placed into, emersed or buried as the word baptize literally means, into Christ/His Spirit. We have been baptized into Him and raised up or born again to new life in Him. This is what the going into tge water pictures, or else it's only an act in water for nothing. Without whatvit pictures it's useless. And what it pictures happens in our spirit by His Spirit. Not in water. Water cannot reach our spirit. To me this is so simple. How can water change a heart? Anyway, after years of winning souls, and evangelism, and primarily being concerned with salvation to help people be saved, and seeing hundreds born again and really changed, before they were ever baptized, it's hard to understand christians not seeing this. And I know I cannot win any arguments. I was saved on the street in New Orleans in 1984. After walking thru the park one day, I was talking to God, whoever He was, and asking what was wrong with my life and that I wanted to die. I was thinking of suicide all the time, holes in my arms, and a bad drinking habit. Anyway, I was as lost as anyone is, a sinner. But this guy told me how much Jesus loved me and how He paid for my sin on the cross and was alive and could change my life and forgive me! And that only having Him in me could get me to whete the Father was! That sentence cut me, and I understood! And, after talking about 15 minutrs, in a little while I was surrendering my heart to Jesus and He came in and changed my eternity! I prayed to Him and really just said "I give up. Take me like I am." My prayer was not long, but it was huge! And I was so dirty but knew I was clean, forgiven! All that stuff I couldn't change just left me! Hate even left my heart for certain people, I forgave where I could not before. This was on a Friday, and Sunday I was in church in Mississippi. I could not stop reading my Bible after I found it! And it made sense!! I began telling everybody I saw about what happened and that they needed Him too! I cried all the time. #1 I cried because I had been forgiven so much! I hated myself, so how did God love me? It broke my heart. #2 I cried for lost people. This was something new. I couldn't shake it! Everybody I looked at, I hurt inside wondering if they were ready to meet God. And I had the answer! I had to tell them. But what would I tell them? But I didn't know about baptism. One month later, I went to the pastor at the end of the message and met him and told him! He got so excited and explained I should be baptized! I said of course, if Jesus wanted me to, yes! So the next Sunday I was baptized, it was wonderful. Mama cried! She and all her Sunday school ladies had prayed for years! I was a 26 yr old saved and happy hippie, a Mississippi Hippie!! So, was I lost for that month? Would I have gone to Hell? I don't see where the scriptures say I was. Feelings, and what I feel and think can not play into this. I know that. But I cannot got with two obscure verses to interpret the hundred!! But I have to know what to preach and how to tell lost people how to come to Jesus. I have to know the gospel. This is very serious! In 1 Cor. 15:3-4 we are told what is contained in the gospel. 15 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures." And when we look at every place in Acts and the Epistles where they preached, it was always the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for sins to save. Never included baptism. Never, except Acts 2:38. Paul said he came to preach the gospel, and not baptize. If the gospel included baptism, and you go to Hell without it, would it not be mentioned, EVER? Well I would NEVER leave it out! Look at it....1 Cor. 1:17-18, 17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." Good job Mike! And Romans 10:13-17.....Great passage that nails it! Also, a great verse to back up Romans 10, all in one verse is, Ephesians 1:13: “In whom (In Jesus) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,” Neither of tgese two passages mention baptism, and they are prime passages for how we are saved! Where is the water? And we know that being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise IS that baptism in/by the Spirit! Being emersed into the body of Christ, 1 Cor. 12:13. That's the progression of getting saved. And no water baptism in it anywhere. Sorry this was long, but I felt I had to share. And this was fun. Church!!! Much love to yall, on both sides of this issue. May our Lord give us wisdom. 🙏✌️
@MrWorldmapz
5 ай бұрын
THIEF ON THE CROSS - For clarification, Jesus died BEFORE the 2 thieves since his legs didn't need to be broken to speed up his death. So if Jesus' death started the requirement for baptism, the thief should not have been saved if he fell under the Old Testament requirements for his salvation based on Dean's view. That said, I do recall Dean saying that the New Covenant did not start until the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 prior to him saying that Jesus' death on the cross instituted the New Covenant. Giving Dean the benefit of the doubt, I think he meant the Day of Pentecost as the New Testament's starting point regarding salvation. After Jesus' death PLUS 40 days, everyone who had genuine faith in Jesus but were not baptized, did not have eternal security if they were not immersed since "in God's Providence", He would have made a way for them to have water baptism...citing Acts 8 and the Ethiopian eunuch as an example of God's Providence. Ultimately, I think Mike Winger's point of view makes more sense because Dean's view needs some sort of gymnastics to make his point. I also see Hebrews 9 as discussing the change from the Old Testament sacrificial system to Jesus' sacrifice alone being sufficient for anyone's salvation. P.S. I am a minister at a Christian Church/churches of Christ (the kind that use instruments in worship) where many teach that baptism is a requirement for salvation. From my STUDY of Scripture, I can no longer hold to this view. I taught that baptism saves a person at one time until I actually studied the concept of salvation. I looked at these same verses being discussed in this video concluding that I was taught incorrectly. I started asking other church leaders of Christian Churches in different locations and found that they would agree that what we were taught about baptism saves a person was repeated without doing our own study. We no longer teach this doctrine. Faith alone through grace saves a person.
@TheGumbyDiver
6 жыл бұрын
I watched this video and tried to keep an open mind and heart while listening to both arguments. Your friend completely lost me when you asked him about deathbed salvations. Even though I hadn’t been agreeing with his arguments, he broke my heart to hear him say everything he said about that. I’m praying for him. How can he not believe that anyone has never accepted Christ and not have the chance to be water baptized? That’s just beyond belief, in my humble opinion. It seems that he has made up his mind and refuses to even consider a different point of view.
@tobynobel5671
4 жыл бұрын
The thief on the cross next to Jesus who repented, Jesus told him that day he would be with him in the kingdom of God. That theif was forgiven basically seconds before he died with no baptism...
@DungeonMiser
3 жыл бұрын
@@tobynobel5671 literally millions of ancient peoples died with no hope of salvation. You think the Mesoamericans that died in their pyramids dedicated to snakes and frogs are going to be saved? You think all the Manchus and Yelangs and Yues who died in the rice fields of Ancient China going to be saved? Jesus Christ said that the road to salvation is narrow, and He meant it. Follow the Bible, not Hallmark cards and hippy new age nonsense.
@vibeauxssxuaebiv3489
3 жыл бұрын
@@DungeonMiser That is a horribly disingenuous interpretation of what he said.
@lefonzopollock4345
3 жыл бұрын
God's providence can not be undermined. A true death bed conversion would include everything God commands us. We only come to God when we are drawn to Him by His Spirit. It's impossible for Him to draw us and He not provide for His Salvation to be received!
@CJ-lr4uq
3 жыл бұрын
@@lefonzopollock4345 Oh boy, you're not a Calvinist, are you?
@gwendolynthomas7716
4 жыл бұрын
Why would anyone ever want to agree with a commandment given directly by Jesus? Mark 16:16, Matt. 28:19. Study the early Christian 1st century. They baptized for the remissions of sin. Non baptism doctrine came centuries latter by John Calvin.
@gialovesjesus8350
5 жыл бұрын
Mike Winger exudes so much grace when he speaks that it makes my heart glad regardless of what doctrine he’s discussing! Now about receiving the Holy Spirit The people that were only baptized didn’t receive the holy spirit because Jesus has not descended he said when I leave I will send the holy spirit that’s why some didn’t get it Till later because they were baptized prior to Jesus descending. simple
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
5 жыл бұрын
I agree with you Mike Winger is correct...the other guy doesn’t understand how to rightly divide the word
@mkovis8587
2 жыл бұрын
If they were baptized into Johns baptism (water baptism) they wouldn't have gotten it solely based on the water baptism after Jesus descended. 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Question for verse 5: Did they indeed get baptized WHEN they HEARD (so they didn't like run to the river and get baptized in the next 10 minutes? ) same here: 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. The scales fell Immediately (whether the "was baptized" means he went to get baptized in water afterwards or not, but it could be that when he was filled with the Holy Ghost and thus baptized. baptism = immersion. Water can keep the thirst away for a day, how much more can the Living Waters do ? John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
@debbymiller8828
7 ай бұрын
Mike, this exchange helped with my current study on baptism. Thank you for clarity.
@DavidIstre
5 жыл бұрын
The opening discussion on Acts two went to Matthew three, and I wish Dean would have said "yes" and returned with this thought: if someone came to John and said "I will repent, but I won't be baptized", would they have been counted among those who received John's baptism of repentance? The answer is clear: "no". In John's case, the baptism was the first act of repentance necessary.
@Concatenate
5 жыл бұрын
I think Dean could have easily said he wasn't sure about Matthew 3:11 and needed more study on it, but then kick it over to Matthew 26:28, same phrase "for forgiveness of sins" using "eis" and is very clearly forward looking.
@r.l.stolba9050
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, would’ve liked to get Mike’s interpretation of what Matt 3:11 actually means then….
@JoshSmith-if9ce
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you so very much Mike for taking the time to patiently share Biblical Truth. May God bless you dear brothers.
@kimnagy11
6 жыл бұрын
My pastor (non-denominational) recently preached a sermon which included the story of Jesus being baptized by John. Jesus clearly states that we must be baptized to enter the kingdom of heaven. HOWEVER, my pastor explained that the entire passage is speaking of the power of Jesus and how He is our only way to salvation. My pastor said that the word for baptism in the Greek translates to ‘being covered’ and that Jesus is actually making the statement that we must be ‘covered’ by his righteousness and his blood through faith in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. I have always been taught that we get baptized (water immersion) as a symbol or proclamation that we are covered by Jesus’ blood & are righteous in the sight of God. I know I’m going to heaven b/c I believe in Jesus & He has paid for my sins, not b/c I’ve been baptized. The Bible clearly teaches over & over that our salvation is not connected to ANY work we do ourselves but only through the free gift of grace through the death & resurrection of Jesus. Thank you Jesus for saving me!!
@lalumierehuguenote
6 жыл бұрын
Kim Nagy can you give the passage?
@kimnagy11
6 жыл бұрын
I believe it was John 3:5. However Matthew & Mark also tell of Jesus’ baptism. Sorry I can’t be more specific. I just remember the point being that baptism (water immersion) is not required for salvation. What is required is that we are baptized (covered) by Jesus’ righteous through the cross
@lalumierehuguenote
6 жыл бұрын
I guess Jesus lied to the thief on the cross then
@davidseoulbrutha5625
6 жыл бұрын
@@lalumierehuguenoteWow unbelievable you would even jokingly type those words just to make a point about baptism that you would call God a liar. If you were a true believer in Christ you wouldn't even alow them to form.
@lalumierehuguenote
6 жыл бұрын
David Well tha's your opinion, I was not joking. The fact remains. If you believe that the thief on the cross was not saved then you make God a liar. If you say that he was saved, then you are making an exception that is unwarranted and groundless. Baptism does not save people, Christ does.
@1984tr
Жыл бұрын
One of the things that I feel is missed in the conversation. The removal of the dirt from the flesh is a contrasting of the Jewish Mikvah and Christian baptism.
@emsdiy6857
4 жыл бұрын
Thank you Mike and thank you for everyone else's comments it really help to give me security because I know a lot of people that were baptizes babies and believed just as young children and it makes me feel like people are saying they won't go to heaven and they're not really save if they don't get baptized again so thank you guys
@timothyseals3791
3 жыл бұрын
Water baptism is a condition for salvation. per the bible.
@maxxiong
Жыл бұрын
Only Church of Christ teaches baptismal regeneration but deny infant baptism afaik. Other denominations that teach baptismal regeneration will baptize infants.
@kac0404
3 жыл бұрын
Many so-called Christians today teach that baptism is not necessary for salvation. But what does the Bible say about baptism, that is, immersion in water? The Bible says that... - Baptism is required by Jesus to become His disciple (Matthew 28:19). - Without baptism, coupled with belief, you are condemned (Mark 16:16). - It is at the point of baptism that our sins are washed away (Acts 22:16). - Baptism is for forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). - Baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:20-21). - Baptism buries us into the death of Christ and raises us to a new life (Romans 6:3-4; Colossians 2:12). - We put on Christ in baptism (Galatians 3:27). The Bible does not teach that... - Baptism is merely an "outward sign of an inward grace." - Baptism is only required to join a local church. - Sprinkling is an acceptable form of baptism. - Holy Spirit baptism is for believers today. - Children are to be baptized. - Baptism is optional.
@JxT1957
3 жыл бұрын
great comment, i dont see why there's a 4 hour debate on a subject that the bible clearly commands us to do to be saved.
@kac0404
3 жыл бұрын
@@JxT1957 Me either, however, you'll be shocked how many people on these threads don't believe water baptism saves when it's clear in the Bible.
@blainemckenzie6492
6 жыл бұрын
A little before 2:04:12 he said people didn’t need to be “rebaptized” if they received Johns baptism. “And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism." And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” Acts 19:3-5
@kentholden8723
4 жыл бұрын
@in777sight Sir, all I can say to you is 2 Tim 3:16. Ask the Holy Ghost for guidance. Peace.
@kentholden8723
4 жыл бұрын
@in777sight Sir, I ask you an earnest question. Is English your first language?
@kentholden8723
4 жыл бұрын
@in777sight Sir, all of us reading your writings, well at the least me, would like to know what parts of the bible do you believe and follow? I'm assuming you believe yourself to be a Christian, but forgive me my presumption. I guess l should ask. Do you believe yourself to be a Christian?
@matteuslucas4223
4 жыл бұрын
@in777sight All this criticism yet you contradict the bible yourself, for example when you say Jesus was murdered. John 10:18. There is an ongoing attack against Paul to discredit much of the NT and you, sir, are part of it. Repent. By the way, why is there 777 in your username, are you into the Kabbalah or something?
@matteuslucas4223
4 жыл бұрын
@in777sight "it is the pages of a book". Which book are you talking about?
@dogman9657
Жыл бұрын
I take it no further than how we are saved by faith alone. When christ was healing was he baptizing them in water to heal them? No. He was baptizing them in the spirit and healing them. As John the Baptist said "I baptize you in water but the one who is coming after me is greater than me and comes to baptize you in the spirit and of fire". It's crazy how in one hand people will say we are saved by faith alone and how there is no earthly work one can do to earn their salvation and in the next breath give an earthly work. What is of the flesh is of the flesh and what is of the spirit is of the spirit. Look at the theif on the cross. Nothing that man could do but have faith to be saved. People will say it was allowed because Jesus hadn't died yet and been resurrected and I ask them show me where in the bible it says that. Cause I can show you how often it says we are saved by faith.
@mmmbbb2267
4 жыл бұрын
Dean makes the point that God knows those who will choose Him, thus He will ultimately lead them to baptism in the name of Jesus before they pass on. What I cannot accept is that someone who has just minutes to live, and it is impossible for them to be baptized, that I would have to accept that that person, or any person for that matter, is truly not genuine in that moment to receive Jesus, otherwise God would not have allowed them to be in a situation where they cannot be baptized. It does not sit right with me. God's salvational power is not withheld from the element of water, of His creation.
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
4 жыл бұрын
That’s the problem they’re limiting the power of God and the grace of God
@tatogl2616
3 жыл бұрын
if they don't have enough time to be baptized but have genuine faith in Jesus Christ, then they get what is called "baptism of desire" meaning that they receive the benefits of baptism and they are saved :)
@LillyMarz777
3 жыл бұрын
@@tatogl2616 Called by who?
@JosephLachh
2 жыл бұрын
Well, it's a bad argument to not accept something because of your feelings. If that's how it was because God declared that's how it is, that's how it is...regardless if you can accept it or not. But thankfully, that's not how it is.
@JosephLachh
2 жыл бұрын
@@tatogl2616 Baptism of desire is not a biblical concept. And if it was, then why is baptism even necessary at all?
@christian_gamer_guy6447
4 жыл бұрын
Mike, you are so incredibly gracious and I hope I can act as tactfully and graciously as you when trying to communicate Truth to people.
@bryanketler9354
5 жыл бұрын
2:30:14 The moment you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. When you repent toward God and put your faith in Jesus Christ.
@timothyseals3791
3 жыл бұрын
what happens?
@1korincanima151-4
5 ай бұрын
Water baptism was mandatory in Israel's prophetic program, and today in the age of grace Baptism is Spiritual when one believes in Christ's Gospel of Grace is sealed with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption, so one must learn to properly separate the Word of Truth in Scripture 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV,Today salvation by grace is through faith without works, Ephesians 2:8-9, faith in Christ's finished work at crisis 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and water baptism has no role, and certainly not in salvation because water baptism is work, and salvation is by grace through faith without works.
@williamjacobs958
2 жыл бұрын
Mike you are using a very unusual rendering of Eis in acts 2:38 . Why do you suppose no major translations translate Eis as “because of?” The main usual idea is that Eis points to purpose. Thoughts?
@curtislatham1426
5 жыл бұрын
Anyone notice evangelical pastors have traded suit and tie with thick rimmed glasses, beards, and button downs :’D Great discussion!
@deripfina
4 жыл бұрын
Curtis Latham I think it’s proof that the generation who wore suits and ties has done well in teaching the next generation to love and seek godly knowledge! The change in pastor attire is reflecting how the baton has been passed from one generation to another generation to lead the church in godly things, only with a new sense of style 😁
@danglingondivineladders3994
3 жыл бұрын
beard=based
@buildup4146
3 жыл бұрын
Hahahahaha
@RUT812
3 жыл бұрын
@@deripfina Man looks at the outward appearance. God looks at the heart. 7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have [a]refused him. For the Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” 1 Samuel 16:7 KJV
@doug1863
8 ай бұрын
And natural looking hair and hair styles 😂
@wallyceltic3905
2 жыл бұрын
It's not a requirement for salvation. But we have to get baptized for obedience to the word.
@gingerboone
2 жыл бұрын
Hahahaaa I loved your stance Mike thank you thank you this is a huge debate in my world with my two sisters and mainly one who was church of Christ, but continues to hold this stance as the other man here. I just have gone round and round and admittedly been so frustrated in trying to understand their stance as opposed to my understanding of God’s word since the beginning of time! Thank you thank you seriously! I’ve shared to my sister and on fbk too because thissssss is helpful
@nickt.7305
Жыл бұрын
@GingerBoone. Connect to the time stamp where Mike and Dean are discussing Romans 6; it’s around the 2 hr 20 minute mark. The baptism mentioned in Romans 6 is water baptism, as immersion in water is analogous to a burial. The text is irrefutable. I appreciate Mike’s thoroughness. However, I disagree with him on this subject. All this being said, I believe that we all agree that those who do believe should be baptized. If you’d like to respond, please do. God bless you and your family.
@kylemanningjcic1333
6 жыл бұрын
Simple Questions... Does Baptism Atone for Sin or is it The Blood Of Jesus? Does Jesus Saves or Does Baptism Save?
@kylemanningjcic1333
6 жыл бұрын
ramster, Thanks for responding.... I didn't ask those questions to downplay Baptistism, but clarify that it is not a means of Atonement for sin and for Salvation.
@TheDailyApologist
6 жыл бұрын
Jesus Blood saves the question at hand is, when does one come in contact with that saving blood?
@TheDailyApologist
6 жыл бұрын
This is Dean Meadows, by the way.
@Lipsnickety
6 жыл бұрын
Does faith atone for sin or is it the blood of Jesus?
@zagdog5642
6 жыл бұрын
Baptism is the participatory act in which we are buried and raised with Christ. To truly understand baptism and the benefits it brings is to first understand it in light of the resurrection.
@ThePatooch
6 жыл бұрын
Also another point Peter in acts 11:16 declares quite clearly that Cornelius and his household were baptized by the Spirit, when he remembers the word of the Lord John truly baptized with water but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit, he was saying there that was what had happened with Cornelius, he and the rest were baptized with the Holy Spirit.
@graceambassador65
6 жыл бұрын
Grace And Peace, anthony. "short" version: (1) baptism WITH The Spirit *Is Vastly Different than: (2) Baptism BY The Spirit!* Please, Be Blessed!: (1) baptism WITH The Spirit = Pentecostal Spirit baptism!: This is the baptism *WITH The Holy Spirit By JESUS CHRIST* From Heaven Poured Out Upon the believing remnant of Israel with signs and powers following. (Isaiah 44 : 3; Matthew 3 : 11; Mark 1 : 8, 16 : 17-18; Luke 24 : 49; Acts 2 : 17-18, 38; Acts 8 : 15-17; Acts 11 : 16) is this FOR us today, as some "think"? *Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2 : 15!)* From: *(2) Baptism BY The Spirit:* *The Only Baptism taught by Paul, Which “spiritually Identifies”* the believer *With CHRIST, HIS Crucifixion, Death, Burial, And HIS Resurrection!* *This Baptism Is Performed BY The Holy Spirit* and does Not include "water." *It Is The Operation Of God!* (Ephesians 4 : 5; Colossians 2 : 12; Galatians 3 : 27; Romans 6 : 3-4; 1 Corinthians 12 : 13!) *Is This God's "ONE Baptism" For us TODAY!* ? bro Chris PS. There is a LONGER "study" *Of ALL baptismS!...* IF you wish... God Bless!
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
3 жыл бұрын
@@graceambassador65 the Bible clearly states there is one baptism that saves spiritually Ephesians 4:5
@dogmutty2
4 жыл бұрын
Mike- What about deathbed profession of faith, Dean- Well we don't know for sure if they are saved…. wow Dean!!
@rebekahkingbello9560
4 жыл бұрын
Same reaction - it was as if people on their death bed cannot genuinely call out to God. But any other response would have boxed him and forced him to say they aren’t saved.
@ramieyaharris
4 жыл бұрын
Only if we had that much power to miss out or lose our Salvation. If we did we would because our nature is corrupt, at birth. Many come and will come to Christ at the last minute and He will not shut them out. But those who deny Him, have a their place in the lake of fire. (This is just my understanding of the scriptures) Salvation is not dependent upon us. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:37, 40
@denonamp
3 жыл бұрын
i think the guy on the cross is literally a death bed confession and also Jesus died after the guy on the cross , when the new testament/covenant begins
@dogmutty2
3 жыл бұрын
@@ramieyaharris believe on the Son is what saves
@newtestamentchristian6932
3 жыл бұрын
@@ramieyaharris God will not save anyone who rejects does not love and obey God. You can't just say I believe Lord on your death bed and God is going to save you. You must love God and do as He commands. People want to be saved that have lived in rebellious sin their whole life against God. But think there's a loop hole that you can be saved if you just wait till the point of death and believe right then, that somehow is going to change Gods mind about His commandments to receive salvation. You can't live in willful sin all your life and think there's away around loving God by obeying Him. That all the commands given by Jesus that you refused to obey, God is somehow just going to overlook because you thought you could be saved by belief alone and no love for God. God tells us what is love. We don't tell God what is love. God clearly defines love for Him in the scriptures. Folks better listen to what God says is love for Him, otherwise on judgment day their going to find out that they thought they loved God but God is going to tell them no I never knew you! 1John 5:3 *For this is the love of God, that WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. And His commandments are not burdensome* 1John 3:23-24 *And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment* Verse 24 *Now he who keeps His commandments ABIDES IN HIM, AND HE IN hIM* *And by this WE KNOW THAT HE ABIDES IN US, BY THE SPIRIT WHOM HE HAS GIVEN US* No one on their death bed that did not obey the Lord and keep His commandments will be able to find a loop hole and get around obedience to God. The scriptures teach only those that obey God ABIDE IN GOD AND GOD ABIDES IN THEM. Faith without obedience to God is a dead loveless faith that cannot save anyone, James 2:24;26
@dianedionisio1250
2 жыл бұрын
This is my second time watching this. Thank you! This is the best debate on this subject I’ve found so far. I’m planning to watch this a third time to solidly my understanding and belief.
@anarchorepublican5954
Жыл бұрын
3 times to get your theology right?...just try reading Acts 2:38 or Mark 16:16 once...it will save you 4 hours
@teeemm9456
7 ай бұрын
3 times is a bit much, but I agree with Anarch on Mark 16:16. It clearly demonstrates that contrasting without baptism will not save you since you're only condemned for not believing. And Acts 3 doesn't do a great job, since we know this is just a quote of Peter, just like in 40 when he tells the crowd to "Save themselves". But Paul and John do an amazing job explaining that by Grace through Faith alone, is what unites us to Christ and is our salvation.
@steadfastdisciple
5 жыл бұрын
I always enjoy Mike’s cadence and kind nature, as well as his examination of the text. However, I could barely make it through this video listening to the other guy meandering his points and fumbling over his words. Thanks for your work Mike, keep doing it!
@Rejoran
5 жыл бұрын
I feel bad for the guy. Maybe it was his first time doing this and Mike's probably been at it a lot longer. I hope Dean will learn the lessons and come back better prepared. Remember we're critiquing him on a performance from about a year ago.
@Concatenate
5 жыл бұрын
This was less debate and more conversation format anyway. I agree that Dean didn't seem solid on some of the points he makes, but he is absolutely correct about his take on baptism.
@saved6655
3 жыл бұрын
@@Concatenate Acts 10: 44-47 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" “the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message” “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.” (Romans 10: 17) can some one have the Holy Spirit and not be saved? Of course not, they have to be born again. Look what Jesus says to nicodemus (don’t just take a text and make a doctrine read all of john 3) so John 3:5 is usually a text used to try to prove baptismal regeneration what dose the next verses say? He explains to us what this means and gives us the understanding of being born again and answers nicodemus question on how can this be. John 3: 5,6 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. You are first born of water, flesh, from your mom. Then you are reborn of spirit, a child of God. So in acts 10 we see these people have the Holy Spirit prior to getting baptized. Already saved, they have the Holy Spirit, there speaking in tongues. Then Peter baptized them. This is the theme throughout acts. Acts 8: 12,13 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. “But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized” what dose that say they believed and then were baptized, just like Cornelius they were saved prior to Baptisim John 3:18-19 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. “He who believes in Him is not judged (but when they believed Philip preaching the good news, good news the gospel) ; he who does not believe has been judged already”. This shows us both sides of the coin if you believe eternal life with God follows if you do not believe eternal life without God follows. With faith and faith alone we have salvation in only one name, Christ Jesus. He who believes in Him, one name. And all’s you have to do is believe. Acts 16: 14,15 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us. “was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household had been baptized,” the lord opened her heart then she was baptized. She was saved before Baptisim. (Romans 10: 17) “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.” It says “was listening” the the lord opened her heart.
@RUT812
3 жыл бұрын
@@Rejoran I’m critiquing what he believes, not his performance. Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is an act of obedience to Christ, to be baptized to testify to the world that we are saved & are identifying with Christ’s death & resurrection. I received bad teaching about baptism when I was growing up. My church didn’t emphasize its importance, & baptisms were rare. Much later in life, the Holy Spirit impressed upon my heart the need to obey Christ & be baptized. So I was baptized in the church I now attend. When baptizing me, my pastor emphasized how it’s never too late to be baptized. My church does not teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, but people are being saved & subsequently baptized in our church on a regular basis, Glory to God.
@Rejoran
3 жыл бұрын
@@RUT812, are you familiar with conditioned responses? It is something someone does or says in response to a stimulus. There does not necessarily have to be a real connection, one just has to be conditioned to associate one item with another. For example, the chime of an ice cream truck conditions people to anticipate cold tasty treats. This chime in and of itself has nothing to do with cold tasty treats, but we are conditioned as children to associate the two. In this case, baptism in water in Jesus's name "has been conditioned" in modern times to be associated with an act of obedience to Christ and of testifying to the world that we are saved. Everything that we do that Jesus commands us is an act of obedience to Christ, but nothing is ever labeled in the New Testament as solely an act of obedience to Christ. That's a catchphrase invented in 1651 and it just caught on. And there is nothing written in scripture about a testifying to the world type purpose given to baptism in Jesus's name. These two ideas that you mentioned about baptism are conditioned responses, evidenced by the fact that, in my experience, no one who speaks of these on KZitem comments refers to scripture (until asked). They don't say things like "baptism is..., because this scripture says...". These ideas come about only from hearing them repeated relentlessly by those one trusts. How many people have actually scrutinized the scriptures to find the "written" purpose(s) of baptism in Jesus's name? Have you ever questioned that the scriptures don't express an expectation for a newly saved person to hold an event where they tell everyone they're saved? There's nothing that happens in between being saved and living the life & preaching the gospel? How could baptism fulfill a role of something that is not expected in scripture? When people do ultimately look and cannot find these things written in the Bible, the only real option they have is to admit and acknowledge that they have been taught something unBiblical and secular. They are alien to the Bible, originated by men. Any evidence people use to support purposes of an act of obedience to Christ and of testifying to the world that they are saved comes from commentary added to scriptures to make them appear to say what they want The most common scriptures this is done to are Matthew 10:32-33 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. [33] But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. which says nothing about baptism and applies any time throughout a person's life he/she confesses Jesus before men and Romans 6:3-7 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [4] Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [6] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [7] for he who has died is freed from sin. which speaks only of the benefit to the person being baptized, and says nothing about others watching him/her. Not only are these ideas about baptism in Jesus's name not written in the Bible, the Bible actually goes against these ideas Acts 9:18-21 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; [19] and he took food and was strengthened. Now for several days he was with the disciples who were at Damascus, [20] and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God." [21] All those hearing him continued to be amazed, and were saying, "Is this not he who in Jerusalem destroyed those who called on this name, and who had come here for the purpose of bringing them bound before the chief priests?" The people found out about Paul's conversion through his preaching, not his baptism. Because that was not baptism in Jesus's name's purpose. Dean taught correctly.
@1smallstep
6 жыл бұрын
In Matthew 1:11 John tells us that he baptizes with water but the one who comes after him will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. So we are dealing with at least two baptisms here; water and Holy Spirit. So, which of these baptisms is it that we are discussing here? If we are discussing baptism with the Spirit, is this not part and parcel with salvation? Washed clean by the blood of Jesus and filled with the Spirit, the very councilor He promised to send? In this case, the baptism is indeed necessary to salvation but that baptism is given by Jesus when one is saved. Is water baptism required for salvation? Of course not, but we do it as a physical representation of the real baptism we received when we were saved. It goes hand in hand with works. Are we saved by works? No. Are we saved TO works; do we do works to SHOW that salvation? Yes indeed.
@JesusLovesBest
3 жыл бұрын
This is what I've believed for 40 years. We can do NOTHING to assist our salvation. Baptism, Testimony, Sanctification and the works of a Believer, important as the are, do not assist in our Salvation. Galations speaks to this plainly. Seems many, many Christians are more interested in sowing doubt of a person's salvation than loving and encouraging one another. I'll leave the splitting of hairs to others. I value that peace that passes understanding. Praise God!
@johnmorgan327
3 жыл бұрын
Mike keeps coming up with these imagined contexts. But the context in all these passages is the same! Salvation.
@TakeMeToEternity
2 жыл бұрын
@Mike Winger. This is a great discussion!! Thank you for doing this!
@shahamut5009
3 жыл бұрын
At least in my experience, I dont know anyone who believes that the water itself is the agent of forgiveness... but rather that baptism was commanded by God, faith in God is "faithfulness" and obedience to His command, faith in the power of God working through that obedience > faithfulness > faith is what saves a man.
@JivTurky1986
3 жыл бұрын
The blood of Jesus is applied in the waters of baptism when His name is used. Without baptism we can’t be covered in the blood.
@bornagainalex2250
2 жыл бұрын
@@JivTurky1986 All through the Bible, it talks clearly that Blood only takes away sins and it is by faith only we are saved. You can read verses like this in
@darrenryker5455
4 жыл бұрын
Concerning Acts 2:38 vs. Mathew 3:11... 2 different baptisms. The baptism in Mathew was the baptism of John, Acts 19:3-5. The baptism of John was different than the post "great commission" Baptism, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38.
@sailingvesselislandgirl2261
6 жыл бұрын
Did not John the Baptist say "I baptize with water but....He will baptize with the Holy Spirit"? AND.... Acts 19 doesn't Paul explain that John's baptism (water) was a baptism of repentance but they needed to be baptized by the Holy Spirit? Is it not true that in the New Covenant that we would receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a seal of our salvation where as in the O.T. they did not have the seal but we're looking forward to the New Covenant? I do not see in scripture where water baptism is required at all for salvation particularly in light of John's statement that He would baptize with the Holy Spirit. ??? How can we say that water baptism is required or even necessary? Wouldn't it be a work just like circumcision? It seems to me that salvation is not by man or the will of man but is a work of God.
@bornagainspirit
6 жыл бұрын
As we are gentiles, grafted church or new covenant, not required to be water baptized or circumcision( but we receive a circumcision of heart and baptism of holy spirit). That's what I believe.
@nicholasjames5181
5 жыл бұрын
s/v island girl you’re absolutely right, salvation is by faith in gospel and not of works or ourselves! It’s not what we do it’s what Christ did! 👊😇👍
@fuloman9894
5 жыл бұрын
Indeed water baptism is just a RITUAL to express our faith how can they not see that. 🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️ He saying that before is death The Lord could save anybody because he was present but after He died now requires water baptism 🤔🤔🤔 so i guess The Lord loosed some power and Deity after id death??? This guy and many like him don't realize how they are minimizing the Lord Jesus to a submersion in water. They can argue all they want.
@Rejoran
5 жыл бұрын
s/v island girl, n Acts 19, Paul "said" they need to be baptized in Jesus's name. He didn't explain that they need to be baptized by the Holy Spirit.
@lordramos2958
5 жыл бұрын
Mark 16:16 New King James Version (NKJV) 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. IF YOU GET BABTIZED IS BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE THE GOSPEL SO FIRST BELIEVE THEN GET BAPTIZED AND YOU WONT BE CONDEMNED
@sieg624
Жыл бұрын
When baptism used in the NT would people not be referring to the known practice of John the Baptist? Especially, if people also know that Jesus was Baptized by John, such as the apostles? Therefore, if the practice was to be different from that of John the emphasis ought to be that it is Baptism WITHOUT water as opposed to needing to specify that it is the normal practice of John. No?
@esibrian81
5 жыл бұрын
Respect for Dean Meadows. He's the first baptism saves guy that doesn't become angry and starts attacking. This people are vicious and send you to hell. Their testimony gives them out
@dudenotsoperfect9366
2 жыл бұрын
Yes had it literally 10 min ago.
@MCM2014
4 жыл бұрын
Love this discussion! The first point was awesome... use of the word "for" . Another good example is when we say, I'm having a party FOR my 20th birthday. The party doesn't make a person a year older but its FOR a representation of what has already happened. An outward celebration of my new status of being another year older. Or... like saying I'm wearing a cap and gown FOR my graduation. I've completed my studies BEFORE donning the graduation attire , the ceremony is optional. Those who don't WALK IN THE CEREMONY are mailed their diploma etc. because they ARE graduates and have already received a passing grade and have been granted a degree from the college.
@johnmorgan327
3 жыл бұрын
Eis in Greek….(not English) is NEVER used or translated this way. The word ALWAYS has a Howard look meaning “ in order to” “with a view to” or “ for the purpose of”. English usages of an English word are irrelevant to the exegesis of the verse.. The verse Mike used was used in isolation against verses that say John baptized for the remission of sins. It’s both! “for repentance” refers to the fruit that follow after one is baptized and forgiven. This is why John said to “ bring forth ( produce) fruit meet ( in keeping with/ suitable for) repentance. So the word eis (Greek) here still means “in order to”….etc. Translators know this. None of them translate it as becuz. I have in my possession a number of letters from some of the formost Gk. scholars in the world who ( IN WRITING) state this is a grammatical fact. The word NEVER means because of. John was looking for fruit of reprntance to follow their baptism. This is why he also said” say NOT that ye have Abraham as your father”. Jesus was also looking for the fruit of repentance from Israel. This is why he cursed the fig tree. This is my brief but simplest explanation. Mike Winger is WRONG.
@GregorasProject
Жыл бұрын
@@johnmorgan327 I always thought the "for" argument was so silly. Usually, these guys are like "well, the GREEK says...", but when it comes to this passage "nope, the word 'for' is there, just read the English". Very inconsistent exegesis.
@johnmorgan327
Жыл бұрын
@@GregorasProject Yes , it is silly. The sad part is, they are all assuming based on their theology that their sins are forgiven when they have NOT done what the Lord has commanded to effect this blessing. It's all throughout the NT, and the church UNANIMOUSLY believed it and practiced it this way until the reformation.
@maxxiong
Жыл бұрын
@@johnmorgan327 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think only some in the church of Christ actually teaches that you must understand that baptism is expressly for the forgiveness of sins for baptism to be valid. Also Church of Christ seems to be the only main group that teaches baptismal regeneration but not infant baptism.
@johnmorgan327
Жыл бұрын
@@maxxiong Well, just google o bunch of coC websites....lol. That should settle it for you. In fact, it is probably the key doctrine that sets the coC apart from most denominations apart from no mechanical instruments of music in worship. I don't speak for the churches of Christ, but I'm not aware of any that don't teach water baptism is NECESSARY for the forgiveness of sins. BTW, .....the coC does not teach baptismal regeneration properly........meaning power in the water itself.
@rickc.712
2 жыл бұрын
I do have to write that it was very painful to learn there are many who actually believe salvation is realized after baptism. That's tough. So much has to be added to the text in order to extract that view. Thank you, Mike, for patiently attempting to lead our brother to a clearer understanding on the subject.
@sffsf81
2 жыл бұрын
Have you gotten water baptised?
@apologiaromana4123
2 жыл бұрын
Salvation comes at baptism. 1 Peter 3:21.
@ag7015
Жыл бұрын
@@apologiaromana4123 so what of acts 2:21? What if there’s a believer who hasn’t been baptized?
@apologiaromana4123
Жыл бұрын
@@ag7015 I would say that being baptized is calling upon the name of the Lord as Acts 2:21 is in conjunction with 1 Peter 3:21.
@anarchorepublican5954
Жыл бұрын
...actually it's your arrogant and ignorant response here that is so very painful... What sense does it make, to bury those who you claim are already "Alive"?...(Romans 6:1-4)...and why do you always insist on making a detour at Chapter 6 on your "Romans Road"?...
@lukeedison1632
Жыл бұрын
Wow, this was so good. Thank you both for presenting this thoughtful discussion. As to bias, I am a Christian. That said, I would encourage any catholic viewing this to try to view it through clear eyes and ask a few simple questions: who had more reasons, biblical support, and answers? Who said things like, “I don’t know” “Well I just disagree, so we’ll have to agree to disagree” or “oh, I’ll have to think on that more”? I think a clear eyed viewing of this shows that the Catholic was far less capable of defending his viewpoint and was almost exclusively the one forced into a position of submission or appeal to further study. In short, I think from purely a debate perspective, this was not even close and the Christian won - and furthermore, he won because his position is Biblically iron clad.
@bryanketler9354
5 жыл бұрын
2:27:30 YES. Thank you.
@gingerboone
2 жыл бұрын
Goshhhhh this was sooooo good thank you thank you Mike and Dean! Mike I totally stand in agreement with your understanding of God’s word here. So many times I wanted to say something. Hehe love the lighthearted giggles in this heavy topic. One might add a great comparison is looking at all salvation scriptures in the Bible (452), which there’s less that make baptism a contingency for salvation. The other topic that goes hand and hand with this is the fact that there’s a limiting belief of the great power and great mercy of God who chose to deliver his people, if baptism was made mandatory for salvation. God’s ability is sufficient without baptism. We shouldn’t take away God’s strength and glory by doing something physical in our strength to be saved. The theology that baptism is a necessity for salvation puts God’s power in a box and gives man too much power to physically save as opposed to giving it all to God to deliver his people. Salvation is a heart issue not a physical action as water baptism issue. Many times scripture mentions the hard hearts of mankind and direct disobedience. I was shocked at Dean’s answer on that first true false question. Baptism is very important, but it isn’t necessary to be saved. This was manna to my tired soul on this topic I have gone round and round with many church of Christ believers. I pray constantly that God would open the eyes of all of us to see as clear as he’d have us to do that we don’t perish for the lack of knowledge. Blessings to you both this is a tough subject
@vinnym2666
3 жыл бұрын
So, i went idea to do a "presentation " in my mens group about this very topic... During one of the meetings, I heard one of the leaders mentioning that you are NOT saved unless you are water baptized... that struck a nerve and I quickly ased if I could present biblical verses to support why I believe that, simply, Jesus saves... I trust 100% in Jesus for my salvation... Well, these "men" mocked and literally laughed at me... They told me i was listening to "false prophets," and that i misinterpreted EVERY verse i used from the bible... 1 Corinthians 1:17, Titus 3:5, Acts 16:30 i mean, i must be dumb to not be able to understand not 1 of these scriptures... and i touched on a lot of the ones mentioned in this debate...
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
3 жыл бұрын
They just need to be saved
@timothyseals3791
3 жыл бұрын
were these men believers in Jesus Christ?
@martin9410
10 ай бұрын
I wish I could address the full length of this video, but it would become a small book. But first, let me share where I'm coming from. I was brought up in the Church of Christ from the age of two weeks old. I also spent 25 years full time preaching in that faith system, so I know all their arguments solidly (better than most). The person representing the position that water baptism saves you didn't do the best job in communicating his stance. However, I thought Mike did fairly well, but messed up on a few points. I just wish Mike had expounded on Acts 10 and 11 a bit more throughly. Acts 10:45 is extremely clear that "the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentles..." Then they were water baptized after they were saved, having had received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Here's the point that Mike should have made as well, but missed. In Acts 11, when Peter is reporting about this wonderful experience to Jewish leaders, he says, '"Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as He also gave us after believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God saying, "Well then, God has also granted to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life."' Notice, no mention of water baptism, rather Holy Spirit baptism (Gift of the Holy Spirit), And they received this gift "after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ..." This is a powerful refutation of the theology of water salvation baptism. Also in Acts 16:30-31, this question is only asked once, "What must I do to be saved?" The answer, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..." Then after this salvation they were baptized just as in the case of Acts 10. But here's the big takeaway, that maybe many missed: Those that focus just on Salvational water baptism, always appear to neglect the 100s of other passages that say we're just saved by faith. They hardly even glance over at those passages. For instance, in the short 21 chapters of the Gospel of John, "belief," or some form of belief is mention 98 times in regard to salvation, but no mention of Christian water baptism. There are so many more examples than these, but what you'll find with salvational water baptism proponents (like I used to be), that that there is a narrowing focusing on just 7-9 isolated verses taken out of context to prove their case. Another point, in Matthew 12:41, we also see the same Greek word, "eis" used, just as in Acts 2:38, "Repent and be baptized "for" (eis), remission of sins. In that text it says that the people in ancient Nineveh "repented at the preaching of Jonah," or "repented for the preaching of Jonah." They repented "because of," or "as a result of" the preaching of Jonah. I won't even discuss the change from second person and third person in Acts 2:38. Another discussion. Also regarding Roman 10, throughout the New Testament, the terms "faith,""believe," and "repent, are often used interchangeably. I'm reminded of these words in the book of Mark, "...repent and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:14-15). In grammatical terms, these two words function as a synecdoche, which means that a "part" can be used to indicate the "whole." One cannot exist without the other. For instance "repentance" is not mentioned in the Gospel of John, yet it is implied in the 98 times a form of "belief," is used. One doesn't believe unless they've gone through a mind-change (repent), about the person of Jesus. Maybe the fact that this guy has empty book shelves says volumes about his poor exegesis and study habits. He seems to just rattle off at rote some preprogrammed verses without taking too much consideration of context and biblical harmony of the Scriptures. When I was arguing his points (in a past life), I came much better prepared, with some better debating skills, but he's probably doing the best he can with how he's been programmed. And certainly Dean is incorrect on Luke 13:3, repentance does include confession, and faith (two sides of the same coin). You can't change your mind about the Christ and turn towards him unless there is also confession of His Messiahship and a trusting in Him, otherwise, repentance doesn't mean repentance in this passage. Not only that, but in this context, Jesus is addressing unbelieving Jews are are not accepting His Messiahship. Dean has not done a careful, biblical word study on "repentance" nor the implications of that word from a biblical perspective. Regarding Matthew 28:18-20, it might be "water baptism," it might not. It could be Holy Spirit baptism. It could be being Immersed in the Name (means "possession") of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In 1 Peter 3:21, the word for "antitype," means "something that resembles another, a counterpart." For instance, Noah and his family were not saved because of the water but because they were in the ark that was in the water. Just like elsewhere, baptism here is not referencing how one is saved but is an antitype to represent the meaning of salvation. This verse does not teach baptismal regeneration, only faith saves as illustrated the figurative baptism and what it represents.
@triciawyrosdick
6 жыл бұрын
Great job, Mike. I was reared a 4th generation Church of Christ and reared my children as 5th generation. About 5 or 6 years ago we started to question more and more many of the Church of Christ doctrines, but still clung to the teaching of baptism as part of the salvation process. We have been struggling with that more and more as we now assemble with a non-denominational Christian church. You really opened my eyes on a few points during the "debate." I would not consider this a debate, but rather a good teaching opportunity for you. Honestly, Dean did not prove or confirm anything and what he did say actually helped to cast light on what you were sharing. I have subscribed to your KZitem channel and will be watching more to see what you have to share on other biblical topics. In addition, I really appreciate you providing a list of the texts that were discussed and connecting them to where they were mentioned in the video. That has been very helpful in going back to listen again to some of the verses. Thank you.
@chadrichards6141
Жыл бұрын
Church of Christ can be a little stuck stressing baptism as an equal power to repentence, the music thing, and maybe too stiff with female service. I love my COC brothers and sisters. not perfect, but at least they don't open the flood gates to let culture change them with every passing fad. They dig hard into scripture to know the one and only Lord and have good hearts. The leash may be a little short, just like some baptist and calvinist, but God bless them in their imperfection.
@Only1Christ
4 жыл бұрын
I really am so confused. Dean I would love to hear you on this. I (myself) believed and was so changed (became a new person) that I was within a week chased out of my house by my friends, and had the full fruit of the Spirit, then got baptized 2 weeks later. So an unsaved person was filled with the Spirit, preached the gospel and was persecuted?? Everything the scripture promised I had in one week, a week before my baptism. If you told anyone in the first 2 weeks (before my baptism) I was not saved, people would laugh at you! BTW I know of a Islam person who, while seeing Christians being killed, come to faith and in front of the executors professed faith in Jesus.... And was killed there and then. Now you will tell his family God could do nothing for this man to save his life long enough to have him baptized and God would let him die and go to hell, even if he dies there and then for Christ? I am sorry that is not the God I serve, God allowed him to die (after his faith profession) as it is not necessary.
@brothermichael8442
4 жыл бұрын
This is where I'm at regarding baptism. I get that Jesus said to baptize those of all nations and I also get what Acts 2:36 says. What I feel like believers aren't understanding is just how hard it is to actually get baptized properly. In my case, I was baptized as a child and didn't really understand the meaning of having a relationship with Christ back then. Fact of the matter is that now I'm a born again believer and he has changed my old sinful lifestyle filled with lies, curse words, worldliness, and a just plain filthy way of living to a lifestyle where I live every day to the best of my ability to give glory to the Lord. Now, I get that repentance comes BEFORE the baptism according to the Bible, but to say you can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven because you haven't been baptized despite making Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior and living for Him and Him alone? Now, people are probably thinking, "how is getting baptized difficult? All you do is have someone dunk your head in water!?", Trust me, there's a lot more to it than that First, the baptizer needs to be a BORN AGAIN BELIEVER, preferably a pastor in a Church. Now sure, just go to a church and be baptized right? Again, not quite that easy. Some churches refuse to baptize someone like me who's already been baptized once. Two, other churches have lengthy classes in order to prove that one is ready to be baptized. Three, some churches have pastors that aren't exactly living like Christians should. I was actually planning on going to a church today with the hopes of eventually being baptized before I realized that they celebrated pagan holidays like Christmas and Easter. Yeah, I'm not having that...... It's just not that easy and for salvation to DEPEND ON IT? If that's the case, then I pray that the Lord leads me to someone worthy of my re-baptism.
@thetachmoniteb825
4 жыл бұрын
Experience doesn't mean NOTHING, nor does experience cancels the Word of God. Yes, we are to be BAPTIZED(immersed) in water after believing in the Lord Jesus. Mark 16:16 and Matthew 28:19. Experience compared to the Word of God should be laughed at.
@fitcoachmarshall4310
4 жыл бұрын
Paul said, 'Its not about the washing the filth off the body, but the interrogation of the intent of the mind.' Dont forget, the thief to His RIGHT 'believed' in Him and was saved then and there when he confessed He had to be The Christ. Everything has meaning and context, seek them both and overlay them for understanding. 'Waters' is much more than physical water. We perceive things through fleshly eyes when our Father is the Spirit.... Only He can give you understanding in His things. Let those with 'eyes' to see and 'ears' to hear understand, to the rest: it must be 'likened' to that which they can compare and 'see'.
@dogmutty2
4 жыл бұрын
@Cyrus Dabar ben Yisrael when he said "being born of water and spirit" he meant water from the womb...the first birth
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
4 жыл бұрын
The Tachmonite/ Adino Jashobeam 'Ebed Servant Mark 16:15-16 the gospel is what saves according to scripture 1 Corinthians 1:17-22
@jimamberg9467
6 жыл бұрын
Mike, this debate was a fantastic way for people like me to better understand both positions. While theologically incorrect, Dean was well spoken about his position and it was truly helpful to see you both interact with the text and each other. Do you have any well versed Paedobaptist friends that would be willing to talk to you in this format? I have seen other debates on this topic yet I feel like they sometimes talk past each other to highlight their own key points without addressing the opposition. A discussion with a reformed Christian could possibly dwarf the length of this video (I LOVED how you didn't skimp any of the relevant verses for the sake of time) but I think it would be good way for people like me to solidify (or question) their views based on scripture. I mean this with the utmost respect to Dean so please don't mistake my ignorance for insult however my two requests for discussion to add to your incredibly busy schedule are issues that I'm sure we can all agree are not reasons to consider someone outside of the Church. Would you consider believing in water baptism for salvation in this category as well or is it different enough from the Bible's message of faith alone for salvation to divide over? I thank you so much for your ministry, Mike. You have been a blessing to my family and friends here in Ohio.
@MikeWinger
6 жыл бұрын
I’m definitely interested in doing this format again if I get a good response online. Thanks for the feedback. I do plan on talking about infant baptism sometime in the future but don’t currently have someone as great as Dean to have that debate with.
@christophergriego2787
Жыл бұрын
The opening verses that he's discussing in Acts 2:36-38 are addressed to the house of Israel (The Jews) in chapter 10 his speaking to gentiles the holy Spirit fell on them well he was speaking. They received the holy Spirit before they were baptized.
@HOCKMAN1981
3 жыл бұрын
If this was put in the newspaper mark 16:16 said he who believes and is Baptized will get a million dollars. How many would show up? If you put the word Saved it a problem and people can’t understand it
@dalestevens3332
4 жыл бұрын
Up minute 54, Mike was convincing. But I think he made an all-encompassing statement about the gift of the Holy Spirit as not always given to the saved individual. He seems to get tripped up on Acts 8 where some of the people who had received water baptism had not yet been baptized with the Holy Spirit. Dean notes that this seems contradictory when Mike states that the baptism of the Holy Spirit confirms a person as a believer.
@ventriloquistmagician4735
3 жыл бұрын
baptism of the Holy Spirit is different from the "Gift of the Holy Spirit. Same way that getting baptized in water doesn't "give you" water
@chiakum
2 жыл бұрын
Hi Mike, thank you so much! An in depth discussion on this important topic on baptism. I am not for baptism regeneration, however, if we look at John 3:1-8 the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the king of God." It seems to me in this encounter that Jesus did emphasize the great importance of both born of water and the Spirit. 1. Is Jesus referring "born of water" fleshly birth or baptism of repentance (i.e. John the Baptist baptism)? 2. Is Jesus referring to baptism at all?
@VictoriaLeigh1990
Жыл бұрын
Hi I believe this is a hendiadys. Look it up. Also look at Ezekiel 36.. Spirit and water are one and the same thing. Its a spiritual washing.
@TheApostleofRock
Жыл бұрын
I think it's telling that Jesus doesn't mention water again in the whole conversation. But, he sure has a lot to say about the Spirit, and the Son coming down from heaven or "from above." Isaiah 44:2-4 is an example of both water and Spirit being images of life and renewal. And I think that throughout the prophets there are several places where God's renewing spirit is depicted as a liquid being poured out. Not to mention in Gen 2, water and the Spirit seem to be essential ingredients in creating Humanity. So, Jesus is interested in people being born of the Spirit (or from above, where the Spirit is) and talking about being born of the water clues us into that imagery. This makes me think that our literal water baptism is even more richly symbolic of our transformation in the Spirit. Water is a paired image with a renewing Spirit that truly changes us. The BibleProject Series on Anointed goes into greater depth about the developing idea of water and spirit throughout the Bible.
@thundershadow
2 ай бұрын
The number one failure among those professing faith is in understanding what faith is. Faith is a readiness to obey. Abraham was tested and he passed having demonstrated to God his readiness to obey. That's when he offered up Issac a burnt sacrifice. God provided him a substitute. A ram then but in reality Jesus on the cross. Not only for Abraham only but for us all. The issue is in receiving the elements of the test/task. Abraham sacrificed. Noah built an ark and we believe on Jesus which entails repentance confession and baptism. Saying baptism is unnecessary is like saying Noah didn't have to build the ark. God sent Jesus to tell us how to be saved.
@jesusislord2453
2 жыл бұрын
Mark 16:16 "he who believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." -JESUS CHRIST
@fellow_servant_jamesk8303
2 жыл бұрын
I’m sure Mike’s response to that would be…. “Amen”
@apologiaromana4123
2 жыл бұрын
1 Peter 3:21, John 3:5 etc. I’m in awe at how evangelicals dance around these verses
@fellow_servant_jamesk8303
2 жыл бұрын
@@apologiaromana4123 please clarify, if you don’t mind Ave Maria, what you mean.
@apologiaromana4123
2 жыл бұрын
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 These verses are clear as to the nature of baptism. 1 Peter 3:21 “Baptism now saves you” Titus 3:5 “Unless one is born of water and of spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of heaven” These verses have been interpreted by the majority of the Church Catholic for 2,000 years to mean that the act of water baptism is the main mode in which God gives salvific grace that was merited on the Cross by Christ. My comment about evangelicals “dancing” was meant to convey my frustration with those who claim that their completely novel interpretation of these passages is the correct one and those who go as far as to claim that those who believe in baptismal regeneration are unsaved.
@fellow_servant_jamesk8303
2 жыл бұрын
@@apologiaromana4123 Thanks for the clarification. To your last point (go so far as to say people are unsaved); that would seem most ironic, if in fact, the people who say this claim that faith saves...apart from water baptism. So it must be quite frustrating to be presented with that type of argumentation. This short dialog leads me to believe you are quite a thoughtful person. Do you think its possible to reconcile the verses you cited (1 Peter 3:21, John 3:5) with regeneration preceding water baptism? Would you like to discuss this matter a bit? (no offence taken if you do not)
@reginaadair5168
3 жыл бұрын
I can’t find time to listen to all of these wonderful videos, discussions! I want to but not enough hours in the day! Thank you for doing this, I have learned so much, as a woman in my 60s, I feel like I’m just now learning about the word and understanding my own beliefs. I do Love Jesus and so grateful for his Word. Dean, the work of Christ on the cross accomplished a purely spiritual act. It WAS physical, and the water baptism is simply a illustration to show the work that Jesus did. There is no work or act that could EVER add to that! We are. To follow Christ in baptism.
@anarchorepublican5954
Жыл бұрын
Regina sez "We are. To follow Christ in baptism" Well .... the Holy Spirit, came upon Christ in His Baptism...Amen! we are to indeed follow Him in that (Titus 3:5) ...Baptism doesn't add to the Cross...Baptism is where on contacts the Cross (Rom 6:1-4)... That is, unless you've got a Sinner's Prayer Time Machine, to take you back to Calvary...no hot air prayer is gonna put you into Christ's death...we are told emphatically in water Baptism that we do....Don't you know this? (Rom 6:3)
@travisdempster4693
5 жыл бұрын
Mike, in regard to "this is done with mans hands" When the priests sacrified animals for forgiveness. The forgiveness was not done with mans hands. It was God working congruently with the priests and sactifice. The argument being made here is that the Forgiveness the Salvation is done by God not man.
@josephpaulsfan7232
5 жыл бұрын
YESHUA IS LORD
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
5 жыл бұрын
Travis D it was the blood of the sinless animals that was worthy of forgiveness..God recognized sinless blood spill
@Imjustsayin99
4 жыл бұрын
Hebrews 10:4 [4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
@travisdempster4693
4 жыл бұрын
@in777sight Sorry sad friend. To many fantasies in your head. I follow the Truth and Gods Word
@travisdempster4693
4 жыл бұрын
@in777sight Sadly you make no sense. I don't know WHAT you are referring to or reading. But it is not the Gospel of Jesus. And John 8 NEVER says what you have said. Jesus NEVER says he is NOT a Son of Abraham. NOR does he claim NOT to be the Son of David. He actually Affirms this. As does the Gospel of Jesus, in Matthew 1:1 "This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham" There is no division between Paul, Peter, James, John and the other Apostles. You are claiming Paul is affirming that Jesus the Messiah is the son of David, the son of Abraham. That is what Indeed what it states in the passage of Matthew. Jesus is constantly responding to the call "Son of David". He never denies being "the Son of David" But specifically indicates that he is not MERELY the son of David BUT SOMETHING GREATER. Jesus was a Man. But he was not MERELY a Man. He was GOD in the Flesh. God With us. This is what the Pharisees refused to accept and submit to. The did not listen to him nor have ears to understand. They said "You a mere man claim to be God" being Blasphemy. But, NO. Jesus was not A MERE MAN. He was God in the Flesh. Claiming to be God, when he was God was his right. Indeed one who IS GOD, is EQUAL to HIMSELF. It is impossible to be LESS then what your BEING IS. Jesus does Support Abraham. In fact he says If the Pharisees Supported Abraham, they would DO WHAT ABRAHAM DID and LISTEN TO JESUS. According to Jesus YOU DON'T Support Jesus if you DON'T Support Abraham. You are right that Gentiles came to Christ before the Mission was to Convert the Gentiles. Jesus states specfically that his Mission, is to prepare his Apostles to go and Convert the Jews first, and then the World. Jesus gave Paul themission of focusing on the Gentiles, while Peter, John and James mission was to focus on the Jews. But that did not mean, if a Jew wanted to know God, and came to Paul, he would turn him away. Nor did that mean that God, did not use Peter to convert Gentiles also. It simply means their Primary Mission was different, in whom they were focused on Converting to Christ. You say Gentiles were NEVER turned away from Converting to the True Religion. But yet Jesus turned a Phanician Women away. Peter and other Apostles still were hesitant to simply enter a Gentiles home. And you can hear the expression of Suprise when they say "So repence unto life has been granted to even the Gentiles" Acts 11:18When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.” Now, I know man's heart is prideful. Men seldom listen to other men. Regardless of how many grey hairs they have on their head. People do not simply Embrace the Truth, because they hear the Truth. So I don't expect you to repent or accept what I am telling you now. Acceptance comes with the Aid of God, through his Holy Spirit. As the Word says "their is a proper time for everything" And your Soil (Your heart) may not be ready to receive what I have shared with you. It may still be to ROCKY. Or you may still be to shallow for it to take root. You may be more concerned about the Worries of Life and so choke out the Word with the weeds. Life churns the Soil of our Hearts. It takes time for us to come to a place to accept something different then what we have set our minds on. But Jesus transforms our Mind, conforms it to him. And NOT the pride the world presents to us. Continue studying the Word. Be a Barean. Be a Pilgrim of the Scriptures. And you will Progress. I shall pray for you.
@Post-Trib
9 ай бұрын
Water baptism in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins is part of salvation. If someone disagrees, then prove it with scripture. Jesus said the new birth is water baptism and Spirit of God
@shelleymorrison8095
3 жыл бұрын
I think Dean Meadows is using a lot of word salad to refute Mike. The Scripture about the salvation of Cornelius happening before water baptism. is so clear. The thief on the cross did not get baptized before his death yet Jesus said said today you will be with me in Paradise.
@timothyseals3791
3 жыл бұрын
Would you be willing to answer some questions on this if it is so clear?
@ventriloquistmagician4735
3 жыл бұрын
@@timothyseals3791 I would
@filoIII
5 жыл бұрын
Waterdogs make the word "baptize" to always mean water, but there's at least 4 types of baptisms. Wine doesn't always mean alcohol, and baptize doesn't always mean water.
@djohnson3093
3 жыл бұрын
The question is, who baptizes us into to the true body of Christ? Is it man or is it the Spirit? "For BY one Spirit are we all baptized into one body..." (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV). The "baptism saves crowd" gives credit to man for baptizing one into the body of Christ. Some versions like the ESV reads differently by replacing "BY one Spirit" with "IN one Spirit", which is a bad translation. So those who believe that water baptism saves are really believing that God is using man too ultimately save.
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
3 жыл бұрын
@@djohnson3093 you are correct Colossians 2:10-12 it’s spiritual baptism and has nothing to do with water
@SpotterVideo
3 жыл бұрын
Luke 3:16, and Acts 11:15-16, and Romans 8:9, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, and Ephesians 1:13, prove you are correct. Christ told Nicodemus a person must be "born-again" of the Spirit of God in order to inherit the kingdom of God. The Holy Spirit is the master teacher promised as a part of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:34, and John 14:26, and fulfilled in 1 John 2:27.
@saved6655
3 жыл бұрын
@@djohnson3093 Acts 10: 44-47 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" “the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message” “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.” (Romans 10: 17) can some one have the Holy Spirit and not be saved? Of course not, they have to be born again. Look what Jesus says to nicodemus (don’t just take a text and make a doctrine read all of john 3) so John 3:5 is usually a text used to try to prove baptismal regeneration what dose the next verses say? He explains to us what this means and gives us the understanding of being born again and answers nicodemus question on how can this be. John 3: 5,6 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. You are first born of water, flesh, from your mom. Then you are reborn of spirit, a child of God. So in acts 10 we see these people have the Holy Spirit prior to getting baptized. Already saved, they have the Holy Spirit, there speaking in tongues. Then Peter baptized them. This is the theme throughout acts. Acts 8: 12,13 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. “But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized” what dose that say they believed and then were baptized, just like Cornelius they were saved prior to Baptisim John 3:18-19 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. “He who believes in Him is not judged (but when they believed Philip preaching the good news, good news the gospel) ; he who does not believe has been judged already”. This shows us both sides of the coin if you believe eternal life with God follows if you do not believe eternal life without God follows. With faith and faith alone we have salvation in only one name, Christ Jesus. He who believes in Him, one name. And all’s you have to do is believe. Acts 16: 14,15 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us. “was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household had been baptized,” the lord opened her heart then she was baptized. She was saved before Baptisim. (Romans 10: 17) “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.” It says “was listening” the the lord opened her heart.
@djohnson3093
3 жыл бұрын
@@saved6655 I completely agree with your statement. The story of Peter alone in Acts should be enough to understand that there's more than Acts 2:38. I tend to think that Peter believed what he said about water baptism. He was still a works centered Jew. He and the other deciples completely missed what Jesus said to them in 1:5 and jumped straight to asking Him if He was going to restore the kingdom. 1:5 flew right over their heads. Like I said, Peter was still a Jew at heart. Peter still thought of the gentiles as unclean. That's why the vision was given to Peter about nothing God has made is unclean... to prepare him for what he was about to witness. Even then Peter said "not so Lord" 3 times. Only after seeing the Holy Spirit falling on the gentiles while he was still speaking, did it strike him what Jesus meant in Acts 1:5. "Then remembered I that the Lord said John indeed baptized with water BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost". It was like a "AH HA! Now I get it!" moment. (The reason I capitalized BUT in Acts 1:5 is because that small but powerful word is overlooked regularly. It literally means in contradiction to, to contrast, opposite, opposed to, in place of...) I truly believe Peter believed water baptism was necessary for salvation in Acts 2:38. Only later did he come to understand what the Lord had meant previously. That's just my take from a book that is about transition and change. Appreciate your well thought out comment and your using the Word of God as a whole instead of as stand alone verses that are taken out of context.
@jthuff5102
5 жыл бұрын
It seems like when mike has a good point Dean pretends to not understand it.
@lynnlink4629
3 жыл бұрын
Amen. Then puts words in Mike's mouth Mike did not say. Uncomfortable debate.
@giovannicorraliza4393
3 жыл бұрын
where u got that idea from?
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
3 жыл бұрын
@@giovannicorraliza4393 did you not watch the video?
@johnmorgan327
3 жыл бұрын
I didn’t hear Mike make a single good point in this discussion. The only reason Dean didn’t understand what he was saying is becuz dean can’t think critically enuf to to follow Mike’s horrible logic and exposition. That’s not a shot at Dean, it’s advice. It IS a shot at Mike though. He knows better.
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
3 жыл бұрын
@@johnmorgan327 to each it’s own…I understand everything Mike said
@rossdaboss1959
Жыл бұрын
It doesn't matter what we believe or feel about baptism, because you will have to give an account on that day. You can't get away it. Mark 16:16, John 3:3-5, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12, Romans 6:3-5, 1 Peter 3:21. Even Jesus himself was baptized to set an example. No one is greater than Jesus. Those that truly love Jesus will do his commandments and not fight against it. Acts 2:41, they gladly received and then got baptized and were added unto them. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
@kotzting
6 жыл бұрын
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Gift of the Holy Spirit are the same thing. Mike would agree to this statement. (Now the gifts, which are a result of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, are a separate issue and separate discussion.) But this debate would take a drastic turn if both gentlemen understood that it is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that must come first. It is this event that "reborns" us. The Gift/Baptism of the Holy Spirit makes you alive spiritually. It is then, and only then, that a person has faith and repentance, both which are listed as gifts. Dead men do not repent. Dead men do not have faith. Faith and repentance are the natural irresistible results of rebirth, being a natural result of being made alive in Christ. Otherwise our faith and repentance are works about which we could boast. Just because having faith and being repentant are not physical activities does not mean they are not works. And they must be seen as WORKS of the Holy Spirit or otherwise they ARE works about which we could boast. And further, just because it FELT like we initiated our salvation when we had faith and repented doesn't mean that we pulled the trigger that caused God to give us new birth. It is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that gives us new life, water baptism being the seal and sign of that act of God. Now then, that didn't offend anyone did it?
@calhounsusan
4 жыл бұрын
🤨 offended? NO. You sound condescending with that statement. You might need to check yourself. Rejections YES. The Gifts of the Spirit and the baptism of the Spirit isn't the same thing. The gifts of the Spirit equips us to do God's work - Heal people, speak Truth in peoples lives and the other gifts given. The ultimate purpose for the gifts are for others not the individual displaying the gift. Baptism of the Spirit is more of God ministering to us by His Spirit being in us. Baptism of The Holy Spirit - the uncontrollable crying, laughing or whatever form someone experiences the presence of God is the form God is ministering to that person. For people watching and not experiencing the baptism of the Spirit they are most of the time skeptical in what they see. Baptism is for the individual not for others. Same can be said about water baptism. It is for you not because your sister wants you to get baptized. You should be getting baptized because you believe, you want to obey and you want to follow christ.
@ThePatooch
3 жыл бұрын
loved your reply right up to nearly the end of your comment, where you say water baptism being the seal and sign of that act of God , do you mean after God by His Spirit does a spiritual salvation where it is nothing of ourselves but ALL by his grace; im sure Pauls doctrine of salvation never preached that to the gentiles . in ephesians 1:13 he has already sealed us, so why the need to do it again; right up till that statement it was the best comment on the subject i have heard. your brother tony
@kotzting
3 жыл бұрын
@@ThePatooch Tony, you place kind words before me and I feel honored by them. And you picked perhaps my favorite epistle of Paul to reference. ( He had his Wheaties the morning that he wrote Ephesians.) I could give a long answer to your question but maybe two analogies will do for the moment. God does indeed seal us with His Spirit when He does the work of regeneration. Then water baptism is a seal of that work of the Holy Spirit in which we participate. God condescends to our creatureliness by using a sacrament in our lives as believers to which we can look back and find reassurance for knowing our adoption, our redemption, our inheritance, and all the spiritual blessings that we have in Christ. In similar fashion a king would sign a document, and then seal it with his ring as it was sent out. In another way a couple will exchange vows and rings in a public ceremony before God which is a seal. Then afterwards the seal which took place in public is sealed privately and physically, standing as an act of consummation to which both parties can remember, a moment when they became one.
@ThePatooch
3 жыл бұрын
@@kotzting read rom 8:16 screen keeps locking
@ThePatooch
3 жыл бұрын
sorry for short reply
@Solideogloria00
4 жыл бұрын
Great job pastor Mike. The debate was pretty much over with Acts 10 and 11. I don’t know if you read all the way to verse 11:17, but It pretty much settled when the Holy Spirit came upon the apostles, “if then God gave the same gift to them (gentiles) as he gave us (Peter and the other Jews) “when we believed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ”, ....”
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
3 жыл бұрын
Correct even verse 18 helps as far as repentance goes
@Sbock86
2 жыл бұрын
Cornelius was the first Gentile conversion. Cultural context is VERY important. It was likely that even after the visions and even after going to his house the cultural difficulties were still too much to overcome - so God had to step in and show him that they were being welcomed into the kingdom. Remember, he had to go and explain himself to the Jews afterwards.
@TheRightMedia
14 күн бұрын
Dean Meadows has turned a work from faith into a work FOR faith. That’s a works-based gospel, and the whole “sovereignty of God” cop-out for admitting it’s a works-based gospel is disingenuous. So if someone wanted to be baptized and died on the way to being baptized, Dean could confidently say “well I guess their faith wasn’t real”.
@frenchiegirlintheusa
2 жыл бұрын
Thank goodness you made this video, I have been trying to figure this out for a little while.
@robertchristie381
2 жыл бұрын
Mark 16:16 Jesus said believe and be baptized. So the same thing would happen to a person right before he believed as would rught before he was baptized
@JesusLovesBest
4 жыл бұрын
God is not the Author of Confusion!
@timothyseals3791
3 жыл бұрын
Man is the author of confusion. God tells us water baptism is required and man made doctrines say differently.
@mrhartley85
6 жыл бұрын
Can you do a video where you talk about the library behind you?
@rockyw.stafford3006
4 жыл бұрын
Best comment
@TheEndIsNear123100
5 жыл бұрын
Luke 23:42-43 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. 43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” So this person on the cross was not baptized and yet saved.
@Concatenate
5 жыл бұрын
It doesn't say he had never been baptized. In fact, the language you quote suggests he may have been baptized into John's baptism. The thief knew of the Kingdom, which is what John was preaching (Matthew 3:2). Even so, no one could be baptized into Christ while Christ was still alive as that baptism is into His death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6:3, Colossians 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21).
@gwendolynthomas7716
4 жыл бұрын
TheEndIsNear123100 How do you know that the their on the cross wasn't baptized? John the Baptist was baptizing many before the cross,
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
4 жыл бұрын
Gwendolyn Thomas he definitely wasn’t baptized
@PlunderAndPillage
4 жыл бұрын
It is amazing to me how many use this argument when, what it really does it try and limit God's power. Jesus was given the power to forgive sins while on Earth, which he obviously did with the thief. But either way, if Jesus tells you that you're going to be in Paradise, you will be. Also, Christianity hadn't been established yet, Judaism was still in place. Beside the point, we have no idea if he had been previously baptized.
@DeeMoney-rj4rj
4 жыл бұрын
PlunderAndPillage it was the baptism of repentance the requirement for John’s baptism was to repent and believe in the one that is to come...the thief showed he was not repented or a believer even while on the cross until later on
@craigamore2319
5 жыл бұрын
Hey Mike, how come you guys don't cover John the Baptist's own differentiation between his baptism and Christ's baptism with the Holy Spirit In John 1:31-33? Doesn't that have a profound affect on the nature of this debate?
@markrobertsministries
3 жыл бұрын
No
@kolbywilliams7234
3 жыл бұрын
@@markrobertsministries It absolutely does, though. John distinguishes that he baptizes with water, and that one will come later (Christ), who will baptize with the Holy Spirit. Christ then tells his disciples after He had already risen in Acts 1:5 that John baptized them with water, but in a few days they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Both Jesus and John are drawing a clear distinction between a baptism with water and the baptism with the Holy Spirit. That is part of the new covenant, that His blood was shed and His body was broken for the forgiveness of our sins. He payed that price in full so that all who believe in Him will not perish but have eternal life. If that is true, then it is our faith in Christ that delivers us from sin through the baptism with the Holy Spirit, not water. As the Holy Spirit and Christ are omnipresent in both time and space, their baptism is perfectly available to all who are willing to accept it. That does not mean we should not be baptized with water, as that is a command. It is not required for salvation, however, as is the case with many commands. We must repent when we sin by breaking a command, but it is not the breaking of that command that damns us, it is our unrepentant and hard heart that is responsible. I could be mistaken, but I feel that Christ and John make it pretty clear that the resurrection changed everything. Baptism by water is even technically part of the old covenant by Meadow’s own standards, as Jesus was still very much alive at the time they were implemented. Baptism with the Holy Spirit fits what Christ says to his disciples, and the eternal consequence of His sacrifice, that being our salvation.
@pedromatos3099
5 жыл бұрын
I appreciate the both of you tackling this important topic. I'm a believer that believes that baptism is a requirement for salvation because that's when Peter, speaking in the Spirit, implicitly states that that is how you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. I don't think that can be disputed when reading Acts 2: 38. I concede that the Holy Spirit can be received in other ways. The apostles themselves received it another way. As did the prophets of old. But, it is, I think, important to note that in the first gospel sermon that this was the instruction of the Spirit. Also, among Jesus last words, before his ascension, this was his instruction as well. It's clear that the necessity to be baptized was preached by the early church. It's clear it was tied to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. One thing I think brother Dean didn't make clear was that the baptism doesn't lead to repentance but the other way around. And certainly no one, to my knowledge, in the Churches of Christ believes that baptism is what saves but it is the belief in Christ, on who He is and in His redemptive work on the cross, followed by a godly sorrow that leads to repentance which then culminates in the believer confessing Christ in baptism where his sins are forgiven and now his body is cleansed and results in his receiving of the Holy Spirit, which is the seal of our inheritance and the mark of our salvation. In the thief on the cross example, it's reasonable to surmise that he died after Christ but I think you'll agree that that is an assumption unsupported by scripture. But even if that's so, he was certainly dead before the resurrection and the gospel is not just the death of Christ but also the burial and resurrection. So, in either case, the fullness of the gospel wasn't enacted before the thief death. Also with Jesus pardoning of the thief on the cross and the gentile family receiving the Holy Spirit in a similar manner to the Apostles themselves you can certainly, and biblically, show irrefutable cases of salvation without baptism. I would contend, however, that these were outside the norm used to demonstrate God's power in specific teaching examples and to juxtapose these examples to make baptism unnecessary is a mistake, in my opinion. I wish I could comment on every example, point and counterpoint, but it was a long debate and I would be writing for too long than I have time to commit. I'm interested in perhaps doing just that as a course of bible study and could send you my thoughts on each point the two of you made. Im certainly no authority and I appreciate that it's more difficult to do in a debate setting and I commend the both of you for giving this weighty subject justice. Perhaps I could give some clarity on the baptism issue that I think kind of got muddied during certain times in the debate. Some of the issues we often discuss are often doctrinal but don't pertain to salvation so it's of less import. This is not one of those and I appreciate that God has put it in the hearts of both of you gentleman to devote the time to this discussion. God bless you both.
@jayschroeder4116
3 жыл бұрын
The arguement should be about how one receives the spirit which has plenty of passages thay dont invovle "water" baptism. Like john 7:37-39
@johnmorgan327
3 жыл бұрын
Lol…… I guess Peter got it wrong then……see Acts2:38
@myname-ns1rp
3 жыл бұрын
@@johnmorgan327 lol I guess Jesus and Paul got it wrong then because they never mention having to be water baptized in order to be saved.
@johnmorgan327
3 жыл бұрын
@@myname-ns1rp Wow! Really? Rom.6:1-6….Gal3:25-27…..Paul My.16:15-16; John3:3-5…..Jesus Think carefully b4 saying these passages are talking about some made of spiritual baptism. I can prove that cannot possibly be the case. Can you prove that these passages refer to a spiritual baptism? Uh, no. You just assert it.
@johnmorgan327
3 жыл бұрын
@@myname-ns1rp Mk……not My
@myname-ns1rp
3 жыл бұрын
@@johnmorgan327 Paul said he came not to baptize but to preach the gospel. If baptism is inherently part of the gospel message he couldn't say that. Jesus says whoever believes in Him who sent him has eternal life and shall not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. The thief on the cross was saved no baptism required the paralyzed man was saved no baptism required. Abraham Moses Isaac Joseph Rahab and all the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 were saved by that faith and were not baptized. Paul purposefully refuted ye who wish to be justified by what is done in human hands by choosing Abraham as an example saying we are justified just as he was, by faith in God which is accredited to us as righteousness. This is basic biblical doctrine. If you can twist John 3:3-5 to mean baptism then I probably can't help you but perhaps someone who reads this will be dissuaded from your heresy. John 3:6 clarifies water referring to the first birth (when a woman's water breaks and there's a lot of fluid during childbirth) and that which is born of spirit is by the Spirit (referring to the second birth)
@Sassyfrass955
8 ай бұрын
Why wouldn't the Bible precisely and directly say that baptism is a must to be saved? I would think God would tell us this. Saying this, Im left still confused.
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