By the way - Yes, I did see that I had the plug in the "normal" input and moved it over to the "Bass" input to do the test. I just didn't get it on camera.
@mjdapp
3 жыл бұрын
Loved the easter egg in the final few seconds of this video. It’s great the way people in amurka sometimes completely ignore the actual letters making up words when pronouncing them. Nuclear always cracks me up when I hear it but not as much as aluminium.
@station240
3 жыл бұрын
So the audio transformer you ended up using with the 600ohm primary, is that from the 100V line PA setups, or is it from some form of audio application ?
@robson6285
3 жыл бұрын
Not further forwards with the coil. What you missed is a permanent magnet to one side of the coilcorematerial, like on the back of the coil.
@morgellon9449
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this vid. I really wanted to see this after watching the one without the voltage variation yesterday. You do not disappoint. One of my favorite recent channel finds.
@robson6285
3 жыл бұрын
@@sonyajones i know but if she want to use it as a pickup coil then it needs a magnet to work properly
@fluffycritter
3 жыл бұрын
"Oh, you're a musician? What instrument do you play?" "Power distribution frequency meter."
@Smelter57
3 жыл бұрын
Sample pack available from FranTone :-)
@Kara_Kay_Eschel
3 жыл бұрын
@@polishhotdog933 Is that Polish as in someone or thing from Poland or what you do to make metal or wood shiny?
@rockubtzer
3 жыл бұрын
Guitar. She has older videos where she plays. Her theme after each show is her playing and singing.
@MattMcIrvin
3 жыл бұрын
Occurred to me that the range is less than an octave. This must be a really specialized instrument, since the range of frequencies it can measure is so narrow (used for tuning North American AC power supplies, I guess, since it doesn't even go down to 50 Hz).
@fluffycritter
3 жыл бұрын
Hey folks I realize Fran plays other instruments (including in this video). I was, in fact, making what one might consider “a joke,” and I wasn’t even trying to say that was Fran taking the role of the musician in this dialog.
@paraworldblue
3 жыл бұрын
THANK YOU!!! I don't know if it was my comment that prompted that first segment where you played it through an amp (I think a couple other people had the same idea) but seeing you actually do it absolutely made my day, and I wasn't having a great one before I started watching this, so again, thank you! I am an experimental musician, so I absolutely love stuff like this! I might even take some of the sounds and build some kind of music out of them! If you're interested in collaborating on that, please send me a message, because I am very curious to hear other sounds it can make, and I would love to bounce ideas back and forth with you about what it can do musically! Anyway, I paused the video at 4:24 to make this comment, so now I'm gonna watch the rest.
@paraworldblue
3 жыл бұрын
I had to pause again at 19:35 because I have another idea and I don't want to forget it before the video's over. What would it sound like if you varied the input frequency while holding the tines over an actual guitar pickup? Also, what would it sound like if you tuned the strings of an electric guitar to frequencies that are multiples of the frequencies of the tines, and then held the device over that guitar, holding a frequency until the corresponding string sympathetically vibrated? I could keep going. This thing has so much weird sound potential. I'll probably comment with another wacky idea before the video's over.
@paraworldblue
3 жыл бұрын
......aaaaand here's that another wacky idea: feedback! What would it sound like if you ran it into the Bassman like you did in the video, but held it a few inches from the speaker and turned up the gain until it started feeding back? Also, what kinds of tones could you get if you attached small objects to the tines, or even tied multiple tines together? What if you cut a piece of a paperclip, bent it in at both ends, then attached one end to the tine corresponding to the input frequency, and the other to another tine, but leaving the tines in-between free? I would imagine it would change the resonant frequency, what with the added mass, but if you were able to find that frequency and tune the input frequency to it, what would that sound like?
@rkond
3 жыл бұрын
I speculate that angled plates are there to normalize the response of the tines so that all the tines have roughly the same amplitude. Denser magnetic field on the high end helps to push more power to the tines as they would need more power for the same amplitude at higher frequency.
@pauldavis2108
3 жыл бұрын
I was going to comment the same thing. I'd agree.
@alasdair4161
3 жыл бұрын
The plates either side of the tines form the reactive elements to impose physical motion to the tines themselves. If they are simply magnetised they wouldn't have anything to push/pull against. The taper would be a tuned transition to linearize the amount of motion across the frequency range for a given voltage, the lower frequencies being more efficient afford more gap, the higher frequencies need more energy to be conveyed so the gap is progressively smaller. Great video again Fran, thanks for your efforts.
@tomwimmenhove4652
3 жыл бұрын
You can easily drive a transformer like that with an amp. The amp doesn't 'see' the DC resistance. It sees the inductance of the transformer, which is MUCH higher than the 4-8 ohms of a speaker @60Hz. Try it, and put an amp-meter in between.
@EvilModPixie
3 жыл бұрын
Hearing it play is really neat. So fun!
@craigbrowning9448
3 жыл бұрын
Those Tines are similar to Accordion Reeds, or the Wurlitzer Electric Piano (Wurlitzer also made Accordions kater Hammond sold them the Everett Orgatron amplified Reed Organ rights, when Hammond bought the Cable-Nelson Piano company, who previously acquired the brand Everett as a subsidiary).
@MegaFPVFlyer
3 жыл бұрын
I'm intrigued by the scale this meter uses, it doesn't have 50Hz on it so clearly it's meant for 60Hz systems, but then why isn't 60 in the middle of the scale? I wonder if there's a practical reason (eg frequencies above nominal are more common than ones below) or if they just couldn't get the meter to work correctly at lower frequencies.
@eDoc2020
3 жыл бұрын
I was wondering, too. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that running inductive loads at too low a frequency will cause excessive current but a high frequency is okay.
@Cassandra_Johnson
3 жыл бұрын
admit it, the pickup idea to play it like an instrument was too cool to resist!
@NielMalan
3 жыл бұрын
A mechanical mains electricity frequency meter doesn't need a luminous dial: if you want to know what the frequency is it means the lights are on! If the lights are off, well, I guess frequency is the least of your worries.
@trevorhaddox6884
3 жыл бұрын
Not exactly, you might want to adjust the speed on a generator before connecting it to a load (which may have motors on it), but that would only take a short time so a flashlight would suffice.
@tekvax01
3 жыл бұрын
@@trevorhaddox6884exactly! with multi-phase power generation, you *must* ensure the frequency and phase of the mains voltage and current are completely co-incident, or really bad things can happen...
@stavinaircaeruleum2275
3 жыл бұрын
Underrated comment
@markevans2294
3 жыл бұрын
@@trevorhaddox6884 Alternatively a headlamp or body worn light.
@DasIllu
3 жыл бұрын
@@trevorhaddox6884 Well as soon as you connect a load you will see a drop in frequency anyways, so you could do the rough adjustment by ear. Having a small light bulb with a wide voltage range to illuminate the meter wouldn't affect the the generators rpm too much.
@GiddeonFox
3 жыл бұрын
I think the people who asked "why didn't you just google it" really *really* do not understand this channel.
@MadScientist267
3 жыл бұрын
Google is why the world thinks it's smarter today than in the past. News flash: It's not. The inverse is clearly obvious to those of us that remember the time before the web showed up. Old fashioned deduction and reasoning (more importantly the ability to use it) is much more useful than Google ever thought of being to the truly smart.
@landsgevaer
3 жыл бұрын
Indeed! If you only think "isn't it obvious" then you are likely a bad teacher, and you have little reason to set up a YT channel.
@remek_ember
3 жыл бұрын
@@MadScientist267 Books is why the people like you think they're smarter than others before the gift of printing and reading. News flash: you are in fact smarter than the people before you. An I, a google user, am smarter than you.
@MadScientist267
3 жыл бұрын
@@remek_ember Completely disagree. Knowledge != Intelligence. Intelligence is the ability to acquire, process, store, retrieve, and apply information in a useful way. Anybody can memorize and parrot information. The ability to apply it to real world scenarios is where the magic happens. Simply being able to Google something doesn't even remotely qualify. It covers step one only; acquisition. Intellect is timeless, and has nothing to do with the sources of the information.
@remek_ember
3 жыл бұрын
@@MadScientist267 You completely changed your argument from questioning the benefits of endless free information available on the internet to defining the difference between knowledge and intelligence. There is a great wikipedia article about logically incorrect reasonings, you might want to check that out: www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_fallacies
@NielMalan
3 жыл бұрын
"That's not how I learn." 😀 I love the way you learn, Fran!
@nonenowherebye
3 жыл бұрын
I work with a camp at a remote site (A wilderness retreat centre), that is on its own hydroelectric power system. As the system is islanded (not connected to the grid) our line frequency is far more variable, depending on load. We have these meters in several locations, including in a box on top of the commercial dishwasher. In the winter months, when the available power is low, one of the jobs of the folks in the dish pit is to keep an eye on the meter, and if the frequency drops too low, they have to quickly power off the dishwasher and hot water booster to prevent a power outage. Our typical line frequency is at around 59.5 Hz in the winter months. If it drops to 58.5, the protection relays on the generating plant disconnect the town. These things are important when your generating plant is only producing 60kW, and your commercial dishwashing system is trying to draw 5kW.
@trainliker100
3 жыл бұрын
In my area, there have been times where they go ahead and let the line voltage start lowering to reduce amperage when there is too much power load. Where I worked, we had used some constant current transformers and figured we could use them to protect things like refrigerator motors and such when they lowered voltage or even during some "brownouts". We figured if enough people had them, the power company might find it frustrating that as they lowered the voltage, the current draw remained the same.
@rpatrick2
3 жыл бұрын
"Fran aren't you smart..." I've learned to ignore those. It's a lot easier to be a back seat engineer. If they know so much they can make their own videos.
@isettech
3 жыл бұрын
Fran, Transformers have DC resistance which you measured. They also have a reactive component. Those combined is the impedance. The load of the secondary of a transformer is reflected into the primary. EG: unloaded transformer draws little current. Overloaded transformer draws higher current, limited by the resistance. For voltage stability, driving a transformer with a solid state amp with high negative feedback, or a tube amp with push pull outputs works fine. Due to the very high Z of the frequency meter, the small transformer will provide much higher than 8 ohms load to your amplifier. You can test this with a 2nd transformer. Use your variac or another matching transformer and connect them secondary to secondary through an AC ammeter. With line voltage applied to the primary of the first transformer, the low secondary voltage into the 2nd transformer will be low, even with the low wattage frequency meter attached to the 2nd transformer primary. The lower the DC resistance of a transformer, the more current it can handle without high loss due to the winding resistance. The frequency meter does not have an iron core, so it depends on resistance instead of inductance to limit the current. Try it. Use a signal generator, or Audacity on your computer to generate a slow sweep from 55 to 75hz. Turn up the amp to the secondary voltage of the transformer and connect it. If paranoid, fuse it with a 3 amp fuse. An 80 Watt amp is often protected with a 6 amp speaker fuse on solid state amps. Then connect the meter to the primary at 120 Volts. Try it, and use a 3 amp or smaller fuse if you are worried about your amp. You are dropping less than a 5 watt load on an 80 Watt amp. Not a problem. I recommend the 30 watt or more amp is for the voltage. Lower wattage amps can only drive lower voltage transformers and may clip trying to driver 24VAC RMS into the transformer.
@bjornholmqvist3230
3 жыл бұрын
Word!
@danieleciavatta7522
3 жыл бұрын
Right explanation!
@isettech
3 жыл бұрын
@@danieleciavatta7522 Difference between an engineer venturing into an unknown field and a veteran engineering technician that works with this daily.
@ceptimus
3 жыл бұрын
Impedance and DC resistance are very different things. The primary of your power transformer is about ten ohms. So it draws twelve amps when you connect it to 120V mains? Of course not.
@RememberingMaryEvely
3 жыл бұрын
I wondered if someone else caught that.
@zokonjazokonja
2 жыл бұрын
also same as impedance missmatch, like hat is an impedance of power outlet
@ScottHenion
3 жыл бұрын
The DC ohms of the transformer is not an issue. Measure the transformer on your bassman, it will be less than 1 ohm. It is AC impedace, transformers don't pass DC. The 4-8 ohm load on the transformer imposes the desired load on the final output tubes (something like 3k to 8k ohms depending on the output tube type). Actually when providing the 3-8K load, the transformer itself has a resistance of something like
@hopje01
3 жыл бұрын
If someone wants to learn more, search ‘reflected impedance’. If she makes a 24V driver for the generator, capable driving a current of 120/24 times output current it should work.
@BersekViking
3 жыл бұрын
The impedance thing is BS. 1: You are measuring the DC impedance, that is not the same as the AC impedance of an iron core transformer at 60Hz. 2: The impedance of the mains line is only a few ohms in order to give you a stable voltage. You don't impedance match your toaster to the mains. The is power delivery, not audio.
@coreycampbell1689
3 жыл бұрын
Indeed. I successfully used 6v -120v transformers as plate modulators driven from an 8 ohm amplifier
@killcar5nbike2
3 жыл бұрын
I was going to make a video, but then I figured I can't be assed with starting a KZitem war. I measured an unloaded transformer with 0.7 ohms DC resistance on the primary as around 200 ohms load on the amp. Then by my maths the load I put on it should have been seen as around 200 as well. Both would be seen as I parallel by the amp. So around 100 ohms. Actual measured load was 75 ohms due to losses in the transformer. The secondary dissipation was almost nothing as it is simply I2R losses, and my load was drawing 5ma. The primary resistance was 100 ohms. I used a 12v to 240v transformer and a 47k load.
@jondhuse1549
3 жыл бұрын
Now that's what you call real micro-tonal music!
@catalinbadalan4463
3 жыл бұрын
Just your two cents.. apart.
@jondhuse1549
3 жыл бұрын
@@catalinbadalan4463 Not every single person will get that :-) !
@andyfeimsternfei8408
3 жыл бұрын
I have removed dozens of these frequency meters during my years of working on 100+ year-old hydroelectric plants. They were used to bring the generator speed (frequency) to match the running bus to sync before closing the breaker. I have several on my office wall.
@praveenb9048
3 жыл бұрын
Did you also use the lamps connected between the grid bus and the incoming bus, that pulsate more and more slowly as you approach sync?
@MrGoatflakes
3 жыл бұрын
Cool! How did you match phase though?
@praveenb9048
3 жыл бұрын
@@MrGoatflakes see my other comment on this thread
@isettech
3 жыл бұрын
@@MrGoatflakes Phase match is done with a device called a syncroscope. It is basically two motor stators. The fixed outer one is connected to line. The inner rotor is connected with slip rings to the 2nd one to bring online. The pointer shows the phase difference between the two as this is where the rotating fields match each other. Needle points to 12:00 position when in phase. A slow rotation indicates running fast or slow. Direction shows fast or slow. See Wikipedia on this device. I have used them. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchroscope
@spambot7110
3 жыл бұрын
@@praveenb9048 brilliant, i was imagining some sorta weird thing with synchronous motors and a differential to read out phase, before i looked at your response
@trainliker100
3 жыл бұрын
As I noted for your original video, the angle of the plates is to ensure the amplitude of vibration is relatively constant throughout the frequency range. Otherwise, the low frequency tines would oscillate at a greater amplitude than those at the high frequency. The tines where the angled bars are further apart get less magnetism, where the bars taper closer is greater magnetism. Whether the mechanical resonance change is achieved by tine thickness, width, or weight of solder (as you noted) does not matter. The "heavier" tines will swing further given the same magnetic field. What is specifically being compensated is the tine weight. And I wouldn't be surprised if when they made their first prototype, this little piece of physics hadn't yet occurred to them. And they scratched their head and came up with a simple and elegant solution.
@fazergazer
3 жыл бұрын
“Fran Lab Delivers”! Yes!
@nevellgreenough404
3 жыл бұрын
The inverted power transformer trick does work in some cases. Many years ago in college (~1973) I wanted to test a 400Hz aircraft artificial horizon indicator from a Link trainer. I used a 10-watt Heathkit amp and a 12V-to-120VAC filament transformer. Lacking a signal generator, I recorded WWV's 440Hz tone on a piece of open-reel recorder tape and spliced it into a loop. A few adjustments later it worked like a charm!
@differentname8051
2 жыл бұрын
Wow nice work around
@wktodd
3 жыл бұрын
Bollocks! The high impedance of the coil will work fine with a transformer . Thats why you can see the output on a scope , drive a electrostatic speaker etc etc etc.
@Basement-Science
3 жыл бұрын
Yeah. No reason it wouldnt work if it's designed to just run on mains voltage. Doesnt matter if the voltage comes from a transformer on the bench or down the street.
@VincentGroenewold
3 жыл бұрын
You mean to say "Fran, I think that's not right there, let me show why I think that...". Basic decency.
@wktodd
3 жыл бұрын
@@VincentGroenewold No I mean she's talking BOLLOCKS (and probably knows it!)
@VincentGroenewold
3 жыл бұрын
@@wktodd great way to let others learn, I’d love to be your colleague.
@trainliker100
3 жыл бұрын
I agree that is a bit of a harsh manner. Somebody within these comments corrected me that where I had said "first harmonic" when it was really "second harmonic". I had not written accurately enough what was in my mind which was "the first harmonic above the fundamental". But their manner of criticism was matter of fact. even collegial, and not cruel. I suspect it may be true that Fran doesn't know all things in the universe of electronics and mechanics (who does?) and suspect it is ALSO true that she sometimes misspeaks about something that she does know (who doesn't?)
@hungrytuber2460
3 жыл бұрын
Fran, resistance (R) mean not impedance (Z). You not consider the inductance (X) of the transformer.
@nejiniisan1265
3 жыл бұрын
Even if it doesn't gives you the exact impedance, you can get a picture of the overall impedance. Remember that Z = R + jX, if R is very high, then Z is going to be very high.
@yoksel99
3 жыл бұрын
@@nejiniisan1265 No, actually it is frequently opposite. The larger mains transformer - the lower the R, and higher Z. This means the tiniest transformer from an alarm clock will have much higher R on primary side, because it has a thin winding. And the powerful transformer from a classic audio receiver will have much lower R on the primary side, and much higher Z.
@bryceschug486
3 жыл бұрын
You do realize that she is specifically calling out comments like this a lot in this video. She knows what she is doing.
@paulbennell3313
3 жыл бұрын
If it had a wider range it could be a true analogue spectrum analysis display!
@Fix_It_Again_Tony
3 жыл бұрын
Imagine calibrating that.
@johnpossum556
3 жыл бұрын
At one time per Hertz it'd have 22,000 of those wide. That'd take up a lot of room!
@daveryman1
3 жыл бұрын
@@johnpossum556 But quite an idea!
@paulbennell3313
3 жыл бұрын
@@johnpossum556 You'd have to sacrifice some definition for practicality. Otherwise it'd need it's own room!
@johnpossum556
3 жыл бұрын
@@paulbennell3313 Something like 1/3 octaves would be useful for most musicians. I wonder how the Q is, though.
@AmericanLocomotive1
3 жыл бұрын
As many others mentioned, you're confusing DC resistance with AC inductance. Sure the secondary on that transformer is 0.6 ohms, but the impedance at 60 Hz will be much higher.
@differentname8051
2 жыл бұрын
Surely that would be the same for speaker impedance whilst being driven
@redace001
3 жыл бұрын
Now we demand you make a mouth harp pick up coil! :D ;D
@monad_tcp
3 жыл бұрын
I was hoping that she would unplug the function generator and plug a bass guitar.
@eugenekochnieff
3 жыл бұрын
It will probably be much louder as a pickup if you add a small bias magnet to the tine base
@danieleciavatta7522
3 жыл бұрын
Right! It will act as a Variable Reluctance pick -up, same way as the electric guitar or Fender /Rhodes piano.
@mfbfreak
3 жыл бұрын
Re: Impedance mismatch - this is for people who are interested in how to calculate such things, and some background info. Not to be pedantic or critical or something. There is a big difference between DC resistance and impedance. This is why the transformer doesn't pass 10 amps of current (with its 11 ohm dc resistance on an 110v outlet) when you hook it up. Instead, it draws a few dozen mA to magnetize the core. The 110v/24v transformer is NOT suitable, but other mains transformers are. I ran some calculations, and with a 230v to 6,3v transformer (or 110v to 3v) you can safely drive it with an 8 ohm rated amplifier, as long as the 16000 ohm load is connected EDIT: and is 16000 ohms at 60hz, not at DC. The voltage transformation ratio is 230/6.3=36,5. The impedance transformation ratio is 36.5^2 = 1332. Divide the 16000 ohm frequency meter load by the ratio of 1332, and the amplifier driving the transformer will see 16000/1332= 12 ohm. With the ca. 8mA load at 110v, it will need an amplifier of just over 1 watt, because of the slight mismatch. The DC resistance has no role to speak of, in this application. Tube amps do NOT like driving way too high impedance sources, but 12 ohm on an 8 ohm rated amp will work just fine. The big risk in this case is not blowing up the amp, but blowing up the meter because the amp is able to deliver WAY more power and voltage than needed. With just 10 watts of power you can already produce voltages in the kilovolt range, if you hook up a mains transformer 'in reverse' to a speaker output. I use TDA2003 and 2030 amplifiers for such 'risky' applications. Those are short circuit and open circuit proof. With the 100v or 75v piped audio transformer, you have the same issues. Open circuit secondary, the amplifier will practically see infinite ohms as impedance. Short it out, and it will also see a short circuit even if the transformer says its 4 or 8 ohm (well, it would see just the DC resistance without the impedance added to it). In piped audio transformers, you have to fool around with the watts 'consumed' and that's a whole other story. It's 4 or 8 ohms, if the load is the same as the amount of watts printed on the transformer. Not gonna write more about that now.
@Pentium100MHz
3 жыл бұрын
Assuming the amplifier you are talking about is tube-based (otherwise - why would it have an output transformer?). Tube amps usually can operate with the output shorted (or too low load impedance) no problem - tubes cannot provide much more current than in normal operation. OTOH, tube amps usually cannot work with the load impedance too high - or there can be voltage spikes that would be bad for the output tubes or the transformer. But, if you already have a tube amp - you can probably take the high voltage from the primary side, couple it trough a capacitor and run the meter this way. As for the power transformer impedance matching - I do not think that works the way you described it. I mean a UPS operates pretty much the same way - low voltage from the battery goes into a transformer to be stepped up to whatever the mains voltage is. Obviously the UPS can work at high load (1kW or whatever it is rated at), but it also works at no load or very low load without any problems. While the DC resistance of the transformer is very low, its AC impedance should be rather high without any load. By the way, I just measured a tube output transformer that's supposed to be 5.2k -> 4R. Its DC resistance is 31R for the primary and my meter shows the secondary DC resistance as zero. But it works normally at audio frequencies :) Also, while audio transformers have their impedance printed, it's only the ratio that's correct. If I take my 5.2k -> 4R transformer and hook up an 8R load to it, the primary impedance will be 10.4k
@gadget73
3 жыл бұрын
it wouldn't appear as 0.6 ohms. It would appear as a ratio of the load on the secondary side. 120:24 is 5:1 winding ratio or 25:1 impedance ratio. You'd need 200 ohms on the 120v side to present an 8 ohm load on the 24v side. 600:8 ohm trafo is 75:1 impedance ratio or 8.7:1 winding ratio. With a 16k load on the 600 ohm side, the amp is seeing a 213 ohm load. I'd be surprised if the DC resistance on either side of that transformer is more than 20 ohms.
@gadget73
3 жыл бұрын
and then I get to the part of the video with a DC resistance measurement. Derp.
@thesquarerootofnegativei6225
3 жыл бұрын
Hopefully she didn't kill her Bassman trying to drive that high reflected impedance with it. It is a tube amp, and they don't like doing that. It's bad for the output transformer and some other things. A solid state amp would have been fine with it.
@Tipo874
3 жыл бұрын
Fran, you are obviously not considering that AC impedance is not equal to DC resistance. You measured the primary DC resistance of that fairly small transformer to 11 ohms. If you just go by that then that transformer would draw over 10 A connected to 120 V AC, with the secondary winding open. Obviously it does no do that. At 60Hz if will draw very little. I suspect it will draw no more than say 2 W, which with ohms law give it an impedance of about 7.2 kohms. I am fairly confident that the amp will have no problems driving it. I also suspect that you could drive it directly from the output of a signal generator. The amplitude may be to low for a usable indication on the meter though. Perhaps you have a 6V AC wall wart you can run backwards from the generator?
@AngDavies
3 жыл бұрын
Found the patent patents.google.com/patent/US3374432A/en?assignee=J+B+T+INSTR+Inc&page=1 The diverging plates are so the heavier times and the lighter times have the same amplitude for a given voltage. The heavier ones need less force to get same amplitude surprisingly. Analogous to q factor I think: 1/R*root(L/C) The inductance corresponds to mass, so the heavier slower ones have a sharper+higher peak. I
@123cyr
3 жыл бұрын
I'm certainly not an expert on magnetics, but surely the input/output impedance of the transformer isn't just determined by the winding resistance, but depends on the ratio and the source/load connected? I mean, a theoretical "perfect" transformer has zero resistance doesn't it?
@otakujhp
3 жыл бұрын
I love that meter more than I probably should.
@millicentduke6652
3 жыл бұрын
This was so cool! I loved seeing the harmonics as you swept the wave up and down the range. 🥰
@trainliker100
3 жыл бұрын
Those weren't harmonics. They were responses to the primary frequency of reeds not centered on that frequency but also not with a sharp enough cut off to reject it. It is typical for these meters to have reeds on either side of largely vibrating reed be moving a little. Even the first harmonic of any of those frequencies is far above the range of any of the reeds.
@amicloud_yt
3 жыл бұрын
@@trainliker100 glad someone already said it
@Fix_It_Again_Tony
3 жыл бұрын
@@trainliker100 Isn't the first harmonic the fundamental frequency?
@trainliker100
3 жыл бұрын
@@Fix_It_Again_Tony You are correct. My error in writing. I needed to write more clearly saying the the first harmonic that is above the frequency of interest. As you said, that is the second harmonic, but if I said that, people not familiar with the naming might be confused.
@TomTechVideos
3 жыл бұрын
Had to fast forward to see that frequency sweep in action. Instead of saying it does not work, why not just do it!? A 110V to 9V transformer turned the wrong way will generate 110V from a 9V signal generator sinewave. Usually the signal generators can drive 50 ohm loads. This means the resistive load on the other side of the transformer can be as low as 7.5kohm. Now that meter has a huge coil which probably is significantly inductive and have some inductance in addition to the wire resistance, which will lower current further. If your signal generator is too weak to generate 9Vrms sine with 50 ohm source impedance, you can just throw a HiFi audio amp in between (maybe that is what you did - i skipped the boring part). By the way to use the meter as a pickup you need a permanent magnet close to it to get any good signal. Now probably only the earth magnetic field generated the signal. Alternatively put a small DC current through the coil.
@AnalogueGround
3 жыл бұрын
Transformers have 'reflected' impedance. With a proper impedance meter you'll get an infinite impedance reading on the secondary unless there is a load on the primary. This always seems bizarre when you consider the very low DC resistance of the winding. Of course it works in either direction.
@klif_n
3 жыл бұрын
Glad you are having a bit of fun with the comments. You have to shovel a lot of dirt to find a diamond. Seems like there are a few in there. Cheers.
@dhpbear2
3 жыл бұрын
13:35 - That 0.6 ohms is the DC resistance of the winding. Its AC impedance would be much higher.
@daveevans9809
3 жыл бұрын
14 minutes in, you are confusing resistance with impedance. All other things being equal, the input impedance of the transformer is determined by the load on the output of the transformer and the turns ratio. Of course stray much outside the transformer's spec and other factors come into play. Imagine a mains transformer with a light bulb across the secondary. Switch the bulb off, and the mains power consumption falls to almost zero right? Because the 'infinite' secondary impedance is reflected back to the primary. Measuring DC resistance is just measuring the resistance of a length of copper wire - unravel it off the transformer and it'll read the same.
@gregorythomas333
3 жыл бұрын
It is mind-boggling when you think about how each & every one of the 21 tines was HAND CALIBRATED...then multiply that by how many of these were made!
@andygozzo72
3 жыл бұрын
probably not as many as you might think....its an industrial device not 'mass market' consumer item,
@johnFruetel
3 жыл бұрын
You're one clever lady!
@robson6285
3 жыл бұрын
Not further forwards with the coil but a permanent magnet to one side of the magnetic material like what forms the back of the coil
@EsotericArctos
3 жыл бұрын
Sometimes people need to listen to the videos :-). It was cool seeing the output of the meter giving audio. Really cool follow-up
@martinda7446
3 жыл бұрын
Or not in this case, Fran really messed up some bits here. Edit I like Fran, but this is a perfect example of people blindly following the word of someone they have decided has absolute authority - because they are on KZitem and have made an emotional connection with their audience. Sometimes even those we admire and who are mostly right (95% of the time) muck thing up. Fran makes some basic errors every now and then. We all do it is human. If Fran reads this, I think that her content is among the best on KZitem and not take it as anything more than a gentle reminder of an error.
@EsotericArctos
3 жыл бұрын
@@martinda7446 Agreed that everyone makes mistakes. :)
@ibanezleftyclub
3 жыл бұрын
Hahah I had a feeling it would work, and the sound is the Hz the tine is, so cool. :) Sounds like something Tool would use on an album lol
@stanc7178
3 жыл бұрын
I’m surprised you didn’t mention the difference between the DC resistance of a transformer winding and its AC impedance. Does an audio transformer’s 8Ω winding actually measure 8Ω with a DC meter?
@Lazy_Tim
3 жыл бұрын
Ohm's can really only be used as a resistive measurement only when calculating AC current. But current will only increase from there when using an AC supply. So you could say 8 ohms can be used to calculate the lowest expected AC current.
@larslindgren3846
3 жыл бұрын
@@Lazy_Tim This is definitely wrong for transformers and induktors. They almost always draw much less current than the DC-resistance would indicate. Otherwise the power transformer with 11 ohm primary resistance would draw 11 A at 120 V, that is clearly not the case.
@larslindgren3846
3 жыл бұрын
Yes I am very supprised by this. I think the power transformer would have worked fine as long as the drive frequency was >50Hz.
@Lazy_Tim
3 жыл бұрын
@@larslindgren3846 Yep you're right. Got that all messed up. Forgot all about inductive reactance. Carry on.
@stanc7178
3 жыл бұрын
@@Lazy_Tim Me thinks you don’t have a proper understanding of inductive reactance, as Xɩ goes up with frequency [and current down]. Perhaps, because you are in Australia, you see it upside down. 😉
@SaberTail
3 жыл бұрын
Well done! That was really cool to see.
@kl1172
3 жыл бұрын
That last frequency, nice!
@algiefeatherstonehaugh1091
3 жыл бұрын
You have an extraordinarily high ratio of Likes to Views. And very deservedly so. Thanks for these videos, I am learning a huge amount and enjoying doing it.
@mangamaster03
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the detailed explanation! I spoke to an older engineer, and he said these are still in place in older power plants. Installed in the 50s, and still working today!
@reneejones6330
3 жыл бұрын
The dc resistance of a transformer does not tell you the ac dynamic impedance
@reneejones6330
3 жыл бұрын
Add: a perfect transformer would have 0 dc resistance on both windings
@erikekelund4262
3 жыл бұрын
Since when did DC resistance of the primary of the transformer equal the seen impedance at audio frequencies??? Your tube amp wouldn't work with that mentality. But yes, the idea of a step-up transformer is there :-)
@qu1j0t3
3 жыл бұрын
It was worth it. Learned something from part 1 and part 2! Good on ya, Fran!
@kaysb80
3 жыл бұрын
@11m20s, I think you are right! It's about shaping the magnetic field. It's also explained in one of the patents; patents.google.com/patent/US3374432A (See Fig. 1, 52 and 54.) "In this figure, the leftmost reed of the set 48, designated by the numeral 58, will have the lowest frequency, say for ex ample 56 cycles per second. This reed, which is heavier than the other reeds and slower, will be subjected to a lesser flux density by virtue of the pole flanges 52, 54 having at this location a greater spacing and also a greater front-to-rear dimension (at the left side of the movement of FIG. 1). "
@brasilianguy5437
3 жыл бұрын
Hi Fran. Great . I have suggested yesterday (12/17/2020) to use a transformer backwards in the output of an amplifier. I didn't revise my original comments, but I probably didn't specify the usage of an audio transformer, but for sure not even think in using a power transformer - the impedancies for sure wouldn't match. But hey, you got that point, and my "provocation" worked fine also... Thanks, I am a great fan of Fran (it was fun-ny)
@SkinsFirstGeneration
3 жыл бұрын
You're the best Fran
@tabriff3832
3 жыл бұрын
In between your two frequency meter videos, I was recommended this. I don’t know why. I can’t seem to extract a link so I’ll give you the title ‘Magic of Making - Church Bells’. Something interesting at about 2.40, but best to click on at 2.35. Blink and you’ll miss it. I haven’t researched it myself yet, but I will do.
@ikonseesmrno7300
3 жыл бұрын
A most excellent video! It brought me a chuckle. I watched your last video about it & when you said the coil behind the face was similar to a guitar pickup, I thought OOOOH! she's going to plug it in & jam out. Then I thought, Naaaah! If it could be done, ol' Fran would do it. Now here you are doing it. Simply amazing! Thank you for the follow up video! Regards!
@glasstronic
3 жыл бұрын
But you haven't TRIED the step-up transformer (common "filament" varieity). I have. It works well. If ya' cant get enough current through the meter's coil, a capacitor in series between the meter and the transformer's HV winding will help. Your Bassman will not fry in any event. ;-)
@davidhowell2269
3 жыл бұрын
Fran, as others have said, a transformer requires an alternating current to work. Measuring its resistance at DC only shows it has continuity. You will need to measure its impedance at say 60Hz in order to calculate its AC resistance at that frequency. Your 24v to 120v transformer would work fine if driven by a 24v RMS 60Hz source . A lower voltage - say 5v - secondary transformer would be better when driven with your amp. An old valve (tube) audio output transformer would be ideal. Love the channel.
@ohanneskamerkoseyan3157
3 жыл бұрын
19:50 This is basically a mechanical spectrum analyzer!
@petehiggins33
3 жыл бұрын
I'm afraid theory about transformers was rubbish, you don't need to match impedances to transmit power. When you connect a heater to the mains you don't match the heater resistance to the output impedance of the mains which is near as dammit zero. An amplifier designed to drive an 8 Ohm load doesn't have an output impedance of 8 Ohm, it's perhaps 0.1 Ohm. The rating of 8 Ohm is just the load that it can drive without being overloaded. The original 24V mains transformer would have worked just as well as the audio matching transformer. They are both just transformers designed to cover the required frequency range. The audio transformer has a turns ratio of 8.7 and the mains transformer has a turns ratio of 5, there's not much differrence between them. If you had used the mains transformer then the 16k impedance of the meter would have been reflected back into the amplifier as 16k / 5^2 = 640 Ohm, not 0.6 Ohms. The amplifier would have been quite happy with that. The dc resistance of the windings is irrelevant. Using the mains transformer you could even have driven it directly from the signal generator which probably has an output impedance of 600 Ohm but it probably wouldn't have had sufficient output voltage to work. It would need an unloaded output voltage of 50V to produce 120V across the meter.
@saxbob2006
3 жыл бұрын
Shame on you Fran! How dare you use critical thinking in an attempt to better understand the world around you! (Smh in embarrassed disbelief that you had to defend your approach to learning.) Seriously though, thank you for all that you do and the wisdom you bring to the world. Much love to ya! Bobby Bennett, Dallas, TX.
@tekvax01
3 жыл бұрын
I remember reading that Bryston uses to do Q&A on their UK amps by powering them up with another Bryston amp with an input 50 Hz sine wave set to an amplitude high enough for the amp to deliver the needed 220 volts 50 hertz UK mains voltage! NOW! there is a demo, you should try to reproduce Fran!! :P
@wirdy1
3 жыл бұрын
Anyone who spent hours outside on a cold airfield pan in the 80's/90's, trying to keep warm next to a diesel-powered aircraft power generator set will have watched one of those little gauges. In the UK the power sets were made by Houchin & a selector switch enabled monitoring of the 115v 400hz frequency on each of the three phases.
@jamesvandamme7786
3 жыл бұрын
I had a tone decoder which worked on the same principles. It had a bunch of reeds at mid-audio frequencies. The NE 567 put them out of business. I had a 400 Hz meter on a radar transmitter. When I converted it to 60 Hz I pulled it out ... I wonder what I did with it.
@MichaelWeberMunich
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the video, i did not watch the first one cause I already knew how these operate (having learned about whole Europes power net running in sync). Glow in the dark paint would not make sense for that instrument, since its application would be around some sort of power station, where you could run any incandesent bulb to shine a light -> dark, no frequency, some light, try to get that 50 or 60 hertz thingi somewhat right before connecting to th grid. On a different note, I remember these steam engine governors and a WWI fighter movie, with a simmilar contraption to indicate the airspeed. It was a free spinning airscrew generating a certain rpm dependent of the air flow. The pilot could audible hear his airspeed by recognising the frequency (the higher the nearer to Vmax and ripping of the wing covers). A second indication would be a set of tuning forks (like your frequency counter) that would resonate to the airspeed indicator and would give a objective reading of airspeed, based on the stimulated frequency and independent of the pilots ear. Basically, the rx path of a 9k6 modem would be same, having rc circuits tuned to the tones and detecting a rectified dc to recover the tones to quantified information. A great display of tuning forks in audible range. Thanks and all the best for your endeavors!
@MadScientist267
3 жыл бұрын
But Fran, love... You're way too concerned about the impedance match there when in reality that amp can *more* than handle driving that meter thru the power transformer you have there in your hand. If you need 1W out, you're not putting much more than 1W in to the transformer to get that same watt out the other side. I realize you aren't into blowing things up on your bench, but you have to realize when you're dealing with driving something like that, all you have to do is get the voltage up high enough to stimulate the coil. That and I guarantee you didn't measure the actual impedance of the transformer coming up with 100 milliohms. The value obtained alone tells me that was obtained with a DC measurement which isn't even close to the AC impedance. You'll find if anything that the transformer could be placed across the speakers in parallel and the amp wouldn't even hardly notice it was there, even less so by itself. The key to this kind of experimenting is to start out with the drive low and ramp it up until you get the desired effect, while observing the behavior of the equipment you're using to drive it. Anything funny? Back out. Either way I'm glad you did the follow up just because it showed you it wasn't as complex as you thought it would be.
@KarlBunker
3 жыл бұрын
Fran isn't interested in making something that blows up on her bench. -- Luckily that's what we have ElectroBoom for.
@johnbellas490
3 жыл бұрын
Hello Fran!! Those frequency indicators were very commonly used in control panels for portable or stationary power generators or alternators. Interesting though that they could generate frequency too!! Fun to see video though!!! Thanks for sharing!!
@scottmorrison2689
3 жыл бұрын
Fascinating video! Thank you, Fran. The solder on the tines reminds me of a Wurlitzer electric piano. When you purchase a replacement tine (they sometimes break), it comes tuned slightly flat, having slightly too much solder on the tine. You then very gradually file away just enough solder to bring the tine up to the desired pitch. If you accidently file away too much solder and go sharp of the desired pitch, you have to get out the soldering iron and add more solder, then start all over again, filing the solder away, bit by bit, until you reach the desired pitch...a royal pain in the ass! "Playing" the tines on the frequency meter is like playing a guitar string in the presence of a magnetic guitar pickup. The tines of a Wurlitzer electric piano, however, instead of disturbing magnetic lines of flux, use capacitance to pick up the sound. The tines form one plate of a capacitor, and a fixed plate forms the other plate of the capacitor. A charge is then placed on the tines. When the tines vibrate near the fixed plate, it causes a corresponding change in capacitance, which is then amplified. This approach to amplification works the same way as a condensor microphone. And if you want to go on another rabbit trail, there's the Fender Rhodes electric piano, which uses tines that vibrate like guitar strings in a magnetic field. They're easier to tune - you slide a little spring one way or the other on the tine to tune it. I love this stuff! (Sorry for the lengthy post.)
@scottjohnson7774
3 жыл бұрын
dc resistance is different than ac resistance when measuring transformers or voice coils. A single ended tube amp can drive that meter directly before the output transformer.(add dc blocking cap) i have 3 different output transformers currently on my bench with ac measurements of 6500ohm to 8. at the start of the video i was going to suggest using a audio line output trans. or a 70 /100 volt speaker trans. as they would be a close match. but the speaker to line one worked well also. maybe someday ill get into video ,but repairing vintage tube amplifiers is really my passion. i love to see females in a male dominated industry. keep up the good work!
@laustinspeiss
3 жыл бұрын
I love your desk... it looks just like mine, always half a dozen things in progress. They’re only there for a week or two each, but why waste time putting them away every time you take a single step! Definitely not a poseur with an implausibly clean bench!
@mhoover
3 жыл бұрын
What, no scope on that output? Shame on you!
@57dent
3 жыл бұрын
You are almost certainly correct on the purpose of the plates. If you want to demonstrate this take any rare earth magnet and measure its holding power.(just rough, even by "feel" will do). Then add a steel washer to the back side and repeat. You will find the hold greatly increased because the steel washer deforms the mag field towards the front. That's why rare earth catches usually come with a steel cup.
@jesusarias4320
3 жыл бұрын
This thing is a mechanical spectrum analyzer. It would be interesting to see how it respond with if several tones are added at the input. And BTW I dont thing there is much difference between transformers. The coil resistance dont matter too much... Regards
@rockubtzer
3 жыл бұрын
You figured this out... So please tell us where Jimmy Hoffa is.
@SlyPearTree
3 жыл бұрын
I think the main issue here is that a lot of your watchers don't really know what power, impedance or impedance matching are. I'm not sure I did (it was a long time ago) before studying electronic in school despite doing it as a hobby for a few years before that.
@jonelectronics510
3 жыл бұрын
Don't worry about the people who know everything, the exploration of something to discover its secrets is far more fascinating!
@johnpossum556
3 жыл бұрын
BTW driving that meter should be easier than that, even. Ave's channel did a video on one very similar to this but it was not electrically driven at all. So you should be able to put it just near your amp and play the frequency you want to show and it should vibrate even w/o any electrical connection at all.
@gordonmacqueen8694
3 жыл бұрын
lots of great content lately! thanks Fran. Happy Holidays!
@piratetv1
3 жыл бұрын
My dad got a huge welder/ generator years ago. Someone wanted the dodge 318 engine so we scrapped the generator, it had one of these displays. I had to see how it worked, but figuring out that it was a guitar pickup was beyond me. Great idea
@Murgoh
3 жыл бұрын
It's missing a critical part of a pickup, the magnet, so the signal is really weak as it relies on what ever magnetism is on the tines themselves. But obviously there's still enough current for the amp to pick up.
@kaylaandjimbryant8258
3 жыл бұрын
I'm surprised you had never seen one irl before. Generators, power conditioners for large systems, etc..
@MrMrMeile
3 жыл бұрын
you should make an statement in the difference between you special transformer and normal power transformer because that is really not obvious.
@davidbarts6144
3 жыл бұрын
You mean that multimeter is measuring impedance at 60 Hz, not DC resistance?
@tomwimmenhove4652
3 жыл бұрын
She's measuring DC resistance :)
@davidbarts6144
3 жыл бұрын
@@tomwimmenhove4652 Which has only very little to do with the actual load a transformer presents, because it completely ignores reactance. That said, the audio transformer she used had a 75:1 turns ratio, which made more sense than the 5:1 ratio in the power transformer for this application.
@eDoc2020
3 жыл бұрын
@@davidbarts6144 The 75:1 rating is for impedance. The turns ratio is the square root of that or about 8.5.
@tomwimmenhove4652
3 жыл бұрын
@@davidbarts6144I know. Hence the smiley face. She probably just never really thought about the difference between resistance and impedance.
@womble321
3 жыл бұрын
Some planes had an ultraviolet night light to illuminate the instruments so they would glow a night.
@djayers
3 жыл бұрын
Wait, I'm sure your sums are wrong re. transformer. If you put 24v AC into it, the other end will be 110v unloaded. Adding 10k across it, not a great load. The low impedance in the transformer is what you want. Also... DC resistance != AC impedance
@noakeswalker
3 жыл бұрын
The slightly odd thing about this meter for me, is the range is so large (56 - 74 Hz) and not symmetrical about either 50 or 60 Hz compared to others I have seen that cover, say, 48 - 52 Hz. Questions and more questions Fran ! You played it like a musical instrument anyway, hopefully that will satisfy those who couldn't imagine that in their heads :o)
@tigerjag9316
3 жыл бұрын
Love that Texas Instruments calculator! Takes me back to my childhood c. 1970s-80s. My big brother had one just like it and I envied him! Classic tech that just works.
@Bloated_Tony_Danza
3 жыл бұрын
Fran seems like a really awkward person, she gets really annoyed at all these little things
@seanobrien7169
3 жыл бұрын
What an awkward comment. I cringed....F'n millennials...
@Benco97
3 жыл бұрын
Absolutely beautiful way of displaying the frequency, stunning to see it in operation like that. Thank you!
@VintageTechFan
3 жыл бұрын
It may be louder if you bias the coil with some DC current. Those tines are most likely only very slightly magnetized and tuned to double the frequency they show (they don't have to react to the direction of the field, only the magnitude). Some DC on the coil should play the part of the magnet in the guitar pickup.
@Laracrafttrabant
3 жыл бұрын
Audio transformer :3 i would have used one from an old tube radio Not that i want you to try but would it be possible to just drive it with the tube output stage directly ? we are kinda going trough two transformers, kinda like a high voltage line but in reverse C: and thanks for those nice pictures of the meter, very satisfying~ regards from Germany Lara
@dkmmhdk
3 жыл бұрын
You can't measure the impedance of a transformer with a DC ohmmeter,. And the load that the amplifier sees will depend on the load connected to the transformer secondary, but changed as of the relation of the ratio of the transformer primary/secondary. The resistance of the transformer itself does not influence the load the amplifier sees. You might even have been able to drive the meter directly from the signal generator through a low voltage mains transformer, it is unlikely that the sig.gen would be hurt if the output should short, but a tube amp can be damaged with no load at high levels. Merry Xmas from Denmark.
@NoahSpurrier
3 жыл бұрын
Somewhere I have a tiny, totally mechanical contact tachometer/frequency measuring stick. It looks a bit like a pen or pocket tire pressure test gauge. To use the tool you touch the tip of the stick to something frame, case, or block of a running engine or motor. The stick has a small tab on the side that slids up and down the length of the stick. If you slide the tab it will push or pull a stiff wire out a hole in the tip of the stick. At a specific frequency the wire will suddenly start to wiggle.
@John_Ridley
3 жыл бұрын
I only knew how it worked because I saw a harmonic tachometer on another channel months ago. When I first saw that I was amazed by it and didn't know how that worked until I saw it in operation. People who act like they were born knowing all this stuff are super irritating.
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