So, should this channel change its name? Also: remember that the Within Reason podcast is available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts if you prefer to listen that way!
@miranda4392
Жыл бұрын
Nope! CosmicSkeptic is like your brand at this point. I think you should keep it.
@pacostaco123
Жыл бұрын
It's clear you want to. Is this a case of sunk cost?
@benz.
Жыл бұрын
Up to you of course. CosmicSkeptic is a fine name, but you could probably change it to your name at this point.
@neoepicurean3772
Жыл бұрын
I've had issues with somewhat annoying 'brand' name that was made by 15 years old long ago and now didn't really represented the product. Felt like we should change it but when we tried it seemed to confuse followers. When you've spent years building a brand it's worth more than you'd think. But Lex Friedman successfully changed the name of his podcast. And Marathon bars became Snickers... Who knows. Try it and see.
@pauliuszenevicius9130
Жыл бұрын
Yes. You've outgrown it. New brand is cool.
@beauaIoevv_
Жыл бұрын
I was shocked to find out Alex is just 24 and grew up poor. He's very inspirational and a great representative for the UK!
@Stephen-so9oi
Жыл бұрын
Shocked? Why?
@griffo73
Жыл бұрын
@@Stephen-so9oi he is extremely good at speaking, has seemingly very high education etc... Which are thongs you are less likely to have the ability to access if growing up disatvantaged, also hes very wise, cool and calm for a 24 year old man
@Stephen-so9oi
Жыл бұрын
@@griffo73 he never grew up disadvantaged, I grew up the same. A low income family isn't a disadvantage, In the west that's the norm lol. I'm from the UK and I know people just like him, who have no formal education too. Unlike both me and Cosmic and its simply down to how you hold yourself. Don't fall for the low income family = disadvantaged. Many low income families are right in ethics, and lack brains, and when a good son or daughter is born with some they have a great combination. Sadly I was made a black sheep. Yet the point being, it doesn't stop you doing anything else 90% of other people can't do.
@beanybabyrabie
Жыл бұрын
😂
@beauaIoevv_
Жыл бұрын
Well he sounds like he's born into serious wealth, but he wasn't! So good on him I say. Not that there's anything wrong with being born into wealth but I think we naturally prefer those who haven't.
@nickgman3592
Жыл бұрын
Ive never heard of cosmic skeptic but for some reason i felt like he knew what destiny would say and had an immediate response. Dude seems very well read and i cant wait to dive into more of his content.
@kalergakis9003
Жыл бұрын
Trust me, its worth it!
@scifywriter9768
Жыл бұрын
You won't be disappointed. I especially recommend his videos with Rationality Rules. Some of them are a bit older but they're all great philosophical content.
@awesome3139
Жыл бұрын
Alex is one of the most interesting people I’ve seen in a long time. Have fun.
@MMAGamblingTips
Жыл бұрын
Alex is like a mix between Hitchen’s and Sam Harris but with a more modern style. He’s wicked smart.. or wicked smaht as they might say in Boston.
@TheAxeter
Жыл бұрын
@@MMAGamblingTips I wouldn't say he's like Hitchens, his style was way more aggressive and intense, rightfully so. Cosmic is very laid back in his approach, i think
@skullkrusher4418
Жыл бұрын
FINALLY someone who can really put Destiny's feet to the fire on these fundamental questions. Been a fan of both of your channels for a long time and I'm very happy that you two finally had a discussion.
@TopHatMate888
Жыл бұрын
i wonder how much crossover is between there fanbases
@RSorkin
Жыл бұрын
@@TopHatMate888 Well i’ve never heard of destiny before now
@davethebrahman9870
Жыл бұрын
Mr O’Connor constantly says ‘We can’t explain X’, when what he means is that he, having been miseducated, doesn’t understand X. This is the problem with philosophy; it leads people to be unaware of how much they don’t know.
@LotsaJelloChannel
Жыл бұрын
My guess is it's pretty considerable based on the comments and the types platforms they run. They're both intelligent people who hold left-leaning political views and appeal to an edgier audience
@bh1935
Жыл бұрын
isn't hanging out with bigots like Fuentes a better ethical questional than eating a fucking egg? lol
@csbrooks
Жыл бұрын
I've never seen someone who Destiny struggled so hard with but also didn't devolve into boredom or personal attack which means he respects you alot. Good job.
@Readytogogo
Жыл бұрын
Destiny is always in a good mood if people are respectful and in good faith.
@ChildrensRightsFirst947
Жыл бұрын
Destiny's respect doesn't matter
@jordane5150
Жыл бұрын
@@ChildrensRightsFirst947 Exactly what I was thinking. Why does the respect of a midwit who was so easily exposed for being a sophist matter at all?
@csbrooks
Жыл бұрын
@@jordane5150 Only sophists call people sophists, you can't prove me wrong.
@jordane5150
Жыл бұрын
@@csbrooks if you’re implying that I’m a sophist for calling Destiny a sophist, then you have in fact called me a sophist, making yourself a sophist by your own standards, and as a consequence of which rendered your own claim invalid. Check mate, sophists.
@malirk
Жыл бұрын
This is the video I never knew I always wanted. The opening alone is pure gold.
@TheKomentor
Жыл бұрын
VeganGains is going to call in to Destiny and complain about cosmicskeptic.
@AkshatSharma-qx9wh
Жыл бұрын
@@TheKomentor haha that would be crazyy :v
@letsomethingshine
Жыл бұрын
NeoDestiny (completely forgot his boring real name), does not understand the idea of goals-based ethical frameworks which would be prone to adaptability based on known or new facts and would remove the false deontology idea that we just “feel” our morals as preferences. So far I’ve gottten to @32:30
@letsomethingshine
Жыл бұрын
In so far as goals are preferences, they would still supersede the non-utilitarian de ontological idea that morals should just be thoughtless short-term/knee-jerk feelings.
@letsomethingshine
Жыл бұрын
At @1:18:00 we begin to see that there are fundamental blinders placed in this video’s discussion, because again, we can know “the fact of the matter” when in pertains to how to best achieve goals in our current physical universe. As such, taste preferences would be largely trivialized for “more important” goal preferences which we can actually involve math and testing in.
@ihsahnakerfeldt9280
8 ай бұрын
Watching just one video on Alex's channel would make it clear that you're dealing with a very intelligent, good-faith person approaching subjects with genuine curiosity and due depth. Can't wait to watch more vids. This was a fascinating conversation.
@boliusabol822
4 ай бұрын
he uses a lot of dirty rhetoric too, painting pictures , waffling, trying to be chitchens. (though granted he respects philosophy better than chitchens)
@ChuckChuckWood
28 күн бұрын
@@boliusabol822 examples?
@Baucho119
19 күн бұрын
@@boliusabol822 examples?
@boliusabol822
19 күн бұрын
@@ChuckChuckWood Example of what? Him describing that form of rhetoric that he agrees with(the painting pictures form)? Him pointing out the type of rhetoric that chitchens used and how it was wrong and illogical? Him using the painting pictures form of rherotic? (where he makes his point but then belabours the point throwing a bunch of adjectives in to paint a picture to appeal to the emotions of his audience?)
@ChuckChuckWood
19 күн бұрын
@@boliusabol822 So you said "painting pictures" three times but haven't referenced any specific instance. Give an example of the "dirty" rhetoric used and describe how it's dirty. Or don't and we can move on knowing that you have nothing of substance to say.
@ScareTheater
Жыл бұрын
Ooooh, this is gonna be a good one.
@AnimosityIncarnate
Жыл бұрын
😮 oh shit *a wild scare theatre has appeared*
@serylta
Жыл бұрын
Never thought I would see scare theatre here lol
@BERRYBEEMSTER
Жыл бұрын
I would never expect to see you in the comments of this video
@Ithaca-vv5dy
Жыл бұрын
I knew you were an atheist!
@mega4488
Жыл бұрын
you here haha
@sgnMark
Жыл бұрын
I've been binging your videos. Love your mix of interviewing and philosophical build work. Really cool way of getting to know someone whilst also challenging them on their foundations.
@Killerkiki313
Жыл бұрын
I’m such a fan of the both of you and to see Destiny properly challenged on Ethics is a breath of fresh air.
@reasonablevegan
Жыл бұрын
Same!!
@mikespeight8805
Жыл бұрын
His philosophical egoism and nihilism is his weakest link especially around the topics of veganism and what we owe each other. I found it so funny when he debated vegangainz or whatever and everyone in the comments (and me) was like “uh I guess I’d rather be a vegan than believe whatever destiny claims to believe.” Same situation when he was talking about how torturing a turtle is bad but ultimately neutral or when he talked about how he only cares about his son insofar as it beings him happiness. A statement I just flat out don’t believe since it’s pretty clear he was just biting the bullet since his worldview cornered him into such a ludicrous claim. One of destiny’s primary blind spots is his below average emotional empathy which he makes up for with a high level of integrity, courage and honesty, but still, dudes heart is closed off.
@killgriffinnow
Жыл бұрын
You're a fan of Destiny? The guhy with one of the vilest, most depraved positions I've ever had the misfortune to have forced into my ears? Jesus Christ, what's wrong with you.
@skullkrusher4418
Жыл бұрын
Totally agree!
@awesome3139
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, I only see him debating absolute idiots, so it’s nice to see him talking to someone who is actually intelligent and educated.
@TuckerHolt
Жыл бұрын
My favorite part was when Alex turned on his gravity boots and fell from the ceiling to the floor and said “Names Cosmic… Cosmic Skeptic.” And shot the high evolutionary in the chest with his laser cannon.
@xadielplasencia3674
Жыл бұрын
That was one of my favorites parts aswell, but I prefered when he became The Creator of the Universe himself because of the believe that all atheist have about being their own Gods
@NickBollingerMusic
Жыл бұрын
I do hope you write and that you will send me a link to your work 😂 what a fantastic couple of sentences.
@nicholassullivan1239
Жыл бұрын
That was certainly one of the moments in history.
@wordsforwounds
Жыл бұрын
@@NickBollingerMusic it’s a reference to the guardians of the galaxy I think, like the movies, so you could watch those
@JakeTylenol
Жыл бұрын
At least this joke is slightly different
@shahriarfahim6533
Жыл бұрын
I'm so glad that you challenged Destiny on the meta-ethics and animal ethics issue. These are probably the two of the most major things I disagree with Destiny about, and it was refreshing to have seen him being challenged on that. I'm even more glad that you demonstrated to him how his positions on animal ethics led him to a worldview that is incongruent with his fundamental intuitions. Regardless, it was fucking amazing to have seen you both together, and I really hope you do it again sometime.
@henryriehl2058
Жыл бұрын
DGGer here and I agree. Destiny seems to jump around between 2 different arguments when it comes to his ethical position on animals. One being "well we can't know for sure that animals don't experience sentience like us humans so it's ok to treat them like non-sentient beings" and the other being about how animals aren't part of the equation that forms his "ethical egoism" framework. For the second argument, you could make a case that a mentally underdeveloped person or a baby wouldn't fit the obligations that would prohibit their killings so he has to jump to argument 1. Personally I think Veganism has always been his Achilles heels and the last quarter of the video shows this. Really good convo though!
@Firehazard159
Жыл бұрын
Destiny also doesn't know the literature on animal intelligence. He commented on ravens, but doesn't realize that ravens do communicate literally generationally. He chalks up language as speech, which discounts other forms of communication (even sign language) - we don't need to talk to communicate. So even if ravens don't pick up human level speech, they are still cognitively engaged in generational knowledge sharing.
@_levant1n_708
Жыл бұрын
Having had a vegan roommate who had the ungodly patience to debate his ethics for i guess 3 months, i love that Destiny ended up at my last remaining Argument: it tastes good and i like it! Everything else is some form of cope. Since then i had a lot of respect for vegans for living their values :)
@ONeill01
Жыл бұрын
@@Firehazard159 True, ravens can also hold grudges and can reciprocate with other animals of different species generationally too
@skullkrusher4418
Жыл бұрын
@Chris Andersen to be honest though, intelligence is a complete red herring for the animal ethics discussion. Basically no one believes that we should give ethical consideration to humans based on their level of intelligence. Why should it be any different for other animals? Destiny basically has no argument other than just admitting he doesn't care about hurting animals. Him trying to argue that maybe animals don't feel pain and that it's all really just vegans being too sensitive and anthropomorphizing animals is ridiculous. Anyone denying that cows and dogs feel pain in the 21st century is off their nut. I personally don't care if a certain being has an IQ of zero. If they can feel pain, then they deserve our consideration. I feel like, based on Destint's logic, you could equally argue that only sentient, human, Caucasians deserve moral consideration. You're just adding one more qualifier to the list that destiny has. Who's to say that's not just as correct? Destiny is just gonna keep getting backed into corners by smart people if he doesn't adopt a more credible view on this issue.
@ImHeadshotSniper
7 ай бұрын
1:24:57 "Meeting Eat". Nice to meet you, Eat.
@vintage0x
Жыл бұрын
WOAH this is a crossover we don't deserve but absolutely do need.
@Liberaven
Жыл бұрын
I was literally thinking about it a couple of days ago
@Steve-pm1zy
Жыл бұрын
BRO SAAAME!!!
@reasonablevegan
Жыл бұрын
100%
@Pink_sauce
Жыл бұрын
YES
@jwood6902
Жыл бұрын
the crossover we didn't know we needed.
@sinaadineh8061
Жыл бұрын
I've been waiting for these two people to have a conversation/debate for years. Lots of props to both of you.
@Alexandra-xu3si
Жыл бұрын
Great conversation. It was nice seeing you push him. Very "satisfying" - to quote you two. 😊
@fuchan707
Жыл бұрын
What i like about this conversation is how verbally non-judgemental you were and how you spent the majority of the time just trying to understand his perspective by carefully questioning him, which is a real breath of fresh air for a destiny viewer having to sit through raids and raids of people who just couldn't hold their loads; it did seem like you both were low-key fed up with each other by some point though lol
@AssailantLF
Жыл бұрын
I'm still holding my load
@bruhdabones
Жыл бұрын
They’re cut from the same cloth tbh. Both of them are able to freely evaluate ideas without the veil of ideology. That doesn’t mean they’re perfect or not stubborn, but it does make them very transparent and easy to understand
@BrockNelson
Жыл бұрын
If Alex’s argumentation style was more aggressive he could have made Destiny look incredibly stupid. Destiny still came out looking stupid IMO.
@st.deykun
Жыл бұрын
@@BrockNelsonTo be honest, if he would go for Destiny then Destiny would play a defensive game proving that Alex is imposing his moral system on him etc. Alex pointing out incoherence in Destiny's own system exposed his hypocrisy to the viewer much better.
@broken_abi6973
Жыл бұрын
@@BrockNelson This was destined to be a class on philosophy for Destiny. If you watch any of Destiny's content, you quickly realize that it is a channel on politics that 1% of the time slightly touches philosophy, while CS is specialized in the topics discussed in the video.
@DaveDevourerOfPineapple
Жыл бұрын
I thoroughly enjoyed this. You managed to actually make Steve show his deeply human and emotional side. I have almost infinite capacity to listen to you talk dude. You are such a welcome coherent voice.
@islandurth
Жыл бұрын
That side comes out a lot You must be a new dgger
@matthewzang6688
Жыл бұрын
I like when Destiny said the distinction between the “grand beauty of a tree” and a sentient animal is arbitrary. I also liked when he called nonhuman animals “philosophical zombies”. He literally sounds like a sociopath when discussing animal ethics.
@accountnotfound4209
Жыл бұрын
Destiny seems more zombie than my dog. Guy is certified sociopath. When his best friend asked if he should commit suicide he said go for it. one of the rare insane streamer
@ekaterinastaneva9922
Жыл бұрын
@@matthewzang6688you should check waht happened with all his dogs
@jordane5150
Жыл бұрын
Is "deeply human" a euphemism for "dumb"?
@fourcornersofthepage8374
Жыл бұрын
I’m a Christian and have been following Alex since he appeared on Unbelievable with Justin Brierley. I appreciate how bloody smart the guy is, and how he avoids strawmanning and listening purely to make his next talking point. Keep it up Alex!
@letsomethingshine
Жыл бұрын
Except that my listening intently to the talking points of his guests, he might allow the "spaghetti to the wall" strategy his guests often use to disseminate their ideas and prestige. Nice of him to not necessarily care about testable socio-psychological impacts, very "ivory tower" philosophy of him. Makes sense that those that disagree with him would like it. I do still like the verbally non-judgmental and carefully steel-maning part of his style, though. Details are important, monkey-level discussions are not so useful even if they can be entertaining or "more" entertaining given the majority/mode consumer.
@issaavedra
Жыл бұрын
I like his demeanor, and he is definitely smart, but I seriously doubt his philosophical knowledge. Look Jay Dyer critique of his debates to have a Christian perspective of his (lack of) epistemological justification.
@camcam8995
Жыл бұрын
@@issaavedra hey man I would love to and do a lot of the times but literally every single religious source I check now that I have a good bit of knowledge on the subject is not great to put it lightly so can you tell me why I should check urs
@camcam8995
Жыл бұрын
@@letsomethingshine I got you, as you can see bro did not like the line of questioning they were going down so maybe he keeps it light to not scare off people like destiny. What do you think
@Homophonic
Жыл бұрын
@@letsomethingshine 🤓
@turkeylegs5431
11 ай бұрын
I really enjoyed this. Destiny has rarely come up in my mind in a positive light but he was very respectful and I thoroughly enjoyed getting to hear his perspective. Very well done conversation I hope we get to hear from him on this channel again
@Flixlim
8 ай бұрын
What negative lights does he come up in?
@benjaminjenkins2384
8 ай бұрын
@@Flixlimlots of people just kind of soy at him. I don't like him that much, but some people have destiny derangement syndrome.
@I-am-Hrut
8 ай бұрын
@@benjaminjenkins2384 So you dislike him because of his fanbase?
@benjaminjenkins2384
8 ай бұрын
@@I-am-Hrut i didn't say that?
@Decay4932
6 ай бұрын
@@benjaminjenkins2384then what are you saying
@spygulturtle2322
Жыл бұрын
I liked when the CosmicSkeptic was like "Its skeptic time", and skeptic'ed all over the place. Great episode, keep it up!
@bert0534
Жыл бұрын
Yea but it was even better when Destiny was like “ITS STEVIN’ TIME” and started to morally justify incest
@gaussminigun
Жыл бұрын
@@bert0534 no
@johnmeow2919
Жыл бұрын
It's Morbin time
@javaras6674
Жыл бұрын
@gaussminigun classic anti- intellectual
@zacharyb2723
Жыл бұрын
@@bert0534 the weird thing about incest is no one knows why its wrong but every culture thinks its wrong (even if they define it differently)
@tiny_maddyy
Жыл бұрын
wow. this is how the perfect conversation would go. then entire time i kept waiting for someone to finally get triggered and go off but they both listened to each other and addressed each others points beautifully
@monolith2001
Жыл бұрын
Perhaps the best 2+ hours of my time I've spent on YT all year. What a fantastic conversation! Thanks Alex and Destiny.
@gitprophet
Жыл бұрын
Very interesting conversation - I certainly wish for a continuation.
@dannyboi_663
Жыл бұрын
The CosmicSkeptic name is iconic. My vote is don't change it.
@reasonablevegan
Жыл бұрын
I challenge you to a duel.
@dannyboi_663
Жыл бұрын
@@reasonablevegan K. Where at.
@reasonablevegan
Жыл бұрын
@@dannyboi_663 my livestream
@dannyboi_663
Жыл бұрын
@@reasonablevegan Ha wait so you're serious. What is the debate topic?
@reasonablevegan
Жыл бұрын
@@dannyboi_663 yes, but not really about his name. Wanna talk veganism?
@alekhinesgun9997
Жыл бұрын
THis is absolutely crazy, I was literally thinking to my self "Man I would love to hear alex have a philosophical talk with destiny" and BAM the next day it happens. Unreal, keep up the great work Alex, really looking forward to this discussion
@draxxthemsclounts2478
Жыл бұрын
That's how far Google has gone in spying on us Edit: I forgot this is the internet, and I need to clarify that this is a joke
@stephenpeterson6034
Жыл бұрын
Have you considered that was jebus working in your life? 😮
@kayvee256
Жыл бұрын
Can you please idly think to yourself how you'd love it if I suddenly inherited ten million dollars from a dead wealthy relative I didn't know about? It's a long shot but it's worth a try!
@ambarlostinthewoods3080
Жыл бұрын
THIS IS LITERALLY
@realchoodle
Жыл бұрын
U manifested it thank u
@joewesterland5697
Жыл бұрын
Great convo. Coming from a Destiny fan, you kinda wiped the floor with him...
@the0nlytrueprophet942
Жыл бұрын
Destiny puts a lot more time into politics than just philosophy. True though
@shirinatron3585
Жыл бұрын
@@the0nlytrueprophet942 but does he? Lol
@the0nlytrueprophet942
Жыл бұрын
@@shirinatron3585 He definitely does autistic amount of reading etc, even if you disagree with him
@cheeseofultimatedoom
11 ай бұрын
Only a Destiny fan would see every conversation as an opportunity for one side to dunk on the other. Not everything has to be a debate.
@joewesterland5697
11 ай бұрын
@@cheeseofultimatedoom My comment was meant to be taken as a bit of fun. Take it as hyperbole.
@niclastname
Жыл бұрын
Definitely wasn't expecting this collab. This was a very fun conversation!
@Lannycakes42
Жыл бұрын
I've seen most of the content from both of these creators and I never would've guessed they'd come together. I'll say I've never seen Destiny squirm this much. Interesting Convo.
@skullkrusher4418
Жыл бұрын
Yeah. It's really nice seeing destiny properly challenged by someone intelligent. He's so used to running circles around idiots that I think it's good for him to be shown that he too still has moral/intellectual blind spots.
@MrFrussel
Жыл бұрын
@@skullkrusher4418 I think I also noticed that Steven actually really enjoyed how much he had to work through his own beliefs as they were constantly challenged with very thorough questioning. Very good stuff!
@LoveJungle420
Жыл бұрын
I didn't like it so much. It was missing the flow that both of them usually have in conversation. It just felt like Alex was trying to dominate him. Super weird. He never acts like this. If he had a problem, he should have aired it out right away and moved on. Kind of immature, but he is young.
@skullkrusher4418
Жыл бұрын
@@LoveJungle420 You think Alex was being immature here? How?
@m-linko
Жыл бұрын
@@LoveJungle420 he was fine, you tool. Got over yourself gramps
@Junosensei
Жыл бұрын
Evolutionary Biology is my field of interest and research. When Destiny says he doesn't find the brain evolution part compelling evidence to recognize animal sentience, I don't think he quite understands the extent to which human behavior and animal behavior is similar, or how these behaviors are known to evolve. When we think Cat vs Human behavior, we tend to emphasize major differences, like how we communicate (meows, blinking, hissing, purring, etc.) or our preferences (cats tend to prefer solitude and crawl into tiny spaces to hide), but we have far more similarities, like how we prefer companionship, or how trauma causes us to remember and avoid triggers, a desire to stay active, need for agency and control, preferences for food (especially when familiar), reaction to pheromones of our species, etc. Cats with alzheimers even exibit very similar breakdowns in mental function like memory loss and anxiety behaviors. If it were just cats, we could potentially blame convergent evolution for similar behaviorーthat is, animals that exhibit similar behavior due to completely different genes coding for that same behavior. However, so many of these experiences are present in nearly every animal across the board that we would be far safer to assume this "consciousness", which we tend to associate with many of these behaviors in humans, is likely present. In fact, we can already read and identify the origin of many of these behaviors in the genome, and they match our genetics as well. Even if you argue we can't know for sure, the body of evidence is massive, which is why it's a given in most science institutions that study biology and animal psychology. You're fighting an uphill battle.
@MMAGamblingTips
Жыл бұрын
You’re obviously more intelligent than I am, but as a lowly man, may I suggest some advice? Great! Ok, so next time you leave such an awesome post, please use paragraphs. As someone interested in Evolutionary Biology certainly you can respect the intricacies behind how the eyeball formed and functions in us. Ergo, you can appreciate how difficult it is to have to squint and see the text of miniature type. I loved your post but it made my head hurt!! 😢 Thx 🙏🏼
@fairsaa7975
Жыл бұрын
Have to agree with Insidious Gorilla on this one, but regardless, awesome post that I whole heartedly agree with!
@Junosensei
Жыл бұрын
@@MMAGamblingTips - I amended the post to try and split it up best I could. I hope that helps.
@danielyeh
Жыл бұрын
Ultimately, I don't think sentience really mattes at all. Value is subjective and the only reason to pick one value over another is relative to how it impacts me. It is trivial to justify caring about other humans from a evolutionary or moral standpoint. Other humans deserve moral consideration simply because I interact with these agents as if they have the ability to confer that consideration unto me. This AFFECTS me directly. I can project moral consideration unto a lion, but that wouldn't necessarily stop him from eating me. or a cow from shitting on my lawn. As so far as humans that can't confer consideration unto me, say disabled or low functioning humans, i think it would be inaccurate to say they have consideration directly, but rather indirectly to those around them. Their friends and family value them, and as such we confer moral consideration onto them as PROXY for those actually able to treat us with consideration. We respect the burial of the dead for example and their bodies why? Not because the bodies themselves have any intrinsic value or moral consideration, but rather their family and friends value them. So we confer value to these bodies because they do. If I started desecrating tombs, because I don't care, those people could literally comb beat the shit out of me. Maybe let's make it a rule that we shouldn't do that. Similarly, we can justify the care of certain animals. Many people value their pets. We shouldn't hurt them because they are valuable to them. They shouldn't hurt them, because society has valued them. Arbitrary? No more than any other preference any society has or does not have.
@MicahBuzanANIMATION
Жыл бұрын
And also that fact that humans ARE animals.
@wolfdwarf
Жыл бұрын
Destiny: logical absurdity. Alex: that is logically absurd. Destiny: .... so?
@SilverScorpio17
Жыл бұрын
I'm so glad Alex is still having conversations about animal rights
@Flashyfinancier
Жыл бұрын
I cant stand vegans
@somerandompatriotsfan4415
Жыл бұрын
1,2,3 sing! Eating animals is wrong, Mcdonalds! Hurting animals is wrong, Mcdonalds! Share this song! And change your entire menu to be vegan from now on!
@fatboyinasandpit3434
Жыл бұрын
@somerandompatriotsfan4415. ... this is not how you convince people of your views.
@Flashyfinancier
Жыл бұрын
@@fatboyinasandpit3434 i cant stand vegans
@somerandompatriotsfan4415
Жыл бұрын
@@fatboyinasandpit3434 I wasn’t attempting to convince anyone to believe anything
@isaacengelhardt1934
Жыл бұрын
I usually don't watch these until I'm on a walk or something, but I was interested when I saw who you were talking with, I just had to turn it on right away! I hope you two get a chance to have more formal debates and discussions.
@ThatTigr
Жыл бұрын
Alex did an incredible job at pushing back on Destiny for veganism.
@Onthebrink5
Жыл бұрын
Weird that vegans never push back on dog ownership. Must be from Countries that dont have guns.
@D4n1t0o
Жыл бұрын
He did terribly. He just clutched his pearls.
@tastytherrien5106
Жыл бұрын
@@D4n1t0o how?
@MonkeyDIvan
Жыл бұрын
I think both make strong arguments. Morally veganism is still the better choice. Most people, incliding myself, aren't vegans because we lack the self-respect for ourselves, but that's okay I guess.
@frankylampard3931
Жыл бұрын
I was enjoying conversation until Destiny was talking about parrots/ crows and said with a striaght face "i dont know if they are mammals or not" ..... whilst describing birds 😂😂
@avalauren4731
Жыл бұрын
I relate to Destiny’s disinterest in ethics but also understand the importance of it. This was great!
@tecategpt1959
11 ай бұрын
I do to, not everyone is trying to justify their foundational views, no one’s willing to accept that logic and reasoning can’t help you there
@ShihTzuPosting
9 ай бұрын
Same. I find it interesting and useful but ultimately end up more interested in application and how humans act like Destiny tends to in this video, not that I completely I agree with destiny on things.
@genericusername337
8 ай бұрын
It's pretty easy to act morally. You don't have to get bored on the application of it. Just stop buying dead animal products.
@_Sloppyham
4 ай бұрын
@@tecategpt1959but on some level if your views cannot be justified, then why should people who disagree with you listen to you?
@tecategpt1959
4 ай бұрын
@@_Sloppyham based on personal experience or have similar thought processes as you do and other things. People like destiny mainly because he’s one of the only left leaning people who engage so outwardly and speak so loudly of what he thinks. Not everything he says is going to have a strong metaphysical foundation, we call it rhetoric, borderline sophistry even, but that is the nature of online discourse. Like im certain a smarter person can dismember Alex’s ethics as much as he did with Destiny’s. He’s an emotivist after all, and plays devils advocate far too much in these interviews like he in any way has a greater foundation than destiny’s
@tmstani23
Жыл бұрын
This was a spectacular conversation. So many important and fundamental topics raised. Would love to see another one.
@treehorn36
Жыл бұрын
This was my DREAM crossover. Thank you so much Steven and Alex for making it happen!
@Cheesesteakfreak
Жыл бұрын
Your dream crossover is Alex O'Connor talking to a blue haired loud mouth with no actual knowledge or in ethics? "I hate philosophy" he says while trying to have opinions on everything. Destiny is a joke, a yapping mouth for the lowest common denominator.
@RealChrisHatch
Жыл бұрын
Run along troll
@debrachambers1304
Жыл бұрын
Dream wasn't in this
@Eon_Black
Жыл бұрын
I did not expect this conversation to be this fascinating. More please!
@bartoszulkowskitattoo
7 ай бұрын
Jonathan Pageau is helping here a lot. Words that will help sort this conversation is "hierarchy" and "patterns". Alex gained a lot of respect in my eyes.
@ZyroZoro
Жыл бұрын
Man I don't have time to watch this right now with an exam coming up, but damnit I'm so hyped to watch this when I get a chance.
@Sarahizahhsum
Жыл бұрын
Good luck on your exam!! ❤
@Ellie-qq9zm
Жыл бұрын
The delayed gratification will be totally worth it I assure you ❤
@doinkstr
Жыл бұрын
Good luck on your exam!
@mytandasouder4485
Жыл бұрын
!!!REMINDER!!! PS. hope you passed your exam with flying colors :)
@jeremias-serus
Жыл бұрын
Exams in late May? lol
@craigjikumlambo1333
Жыл бұрын
1:53:49 ,Alex has Destiny here and I think he himself knows it "I don't think it's right for me to not have delicious cheeseburgers" is ultimately what it comes down to, there is no rational excuse for how we treat animals. now I'm not a vegan/vegetarian, but I at least recognize that I'm hypocrite in that aspect.
@lisao6928
Жыл бұрын
Hypocrite is the wrong word. If you do something that goes against your fundamental moral values, that makes you immoral and pretty much psychopathic.
@MrNikeNicke
Жыл бұрын
I think it's an activists job to turn people into hypocrites, as you already recognize your own hypocrisy it's up to you to align your actions to your beliefs, which may seem daunting but personally I found it easier then I thought I would once I had made the decision, I believe in you
@ghevisartor6005
Жыл бұрын
To be hypocrite you must lie about what you value and then do that thing you condemn. You are incoherence at best. The rational excuse for eating meat is that there is no data showing vegan diet to be sustainable for most humans.
@emiliohoms6491
Жыл бұрын
I think is great to recognized it as it is, it was painfull but I found it so empowering when I changed ¿what would you say is in your way from becoming one yourself?
@TotallyNotLoki
Жыл бұрын
I think another valid position is that eating meat is natural, therefore there is nothing inherently wrong with it. If you view the issue simply as one animal eating another animal, what really sets us apart from the rest of the world? Sure, our brains are more complex, and we have a much higher capacity for empathy and other abstract thoughts, but ultimately what’s the difference between a human eating a burger and a wolf eating a deer? I’m not arguing against animal rights here, btw. I’m very much against the current industrial model of farming, but the idea of eating animals itself I have no problems with morally.
@JustThatGuy714
Жыл бұрын
I can sum up this whole video: “How do we prove murder is wrong” “🤷♂️”
@cwilliams6884
Жыл бұрын
might makes right is the only solution to the moral question
@RabornTau
Жыл бұрын
Might doesn't make one right, it is only strength absent morality.
@bakeralalwani7890
Жыл бұрын
destiny is cluess and beta as they come
@Kyoth3
Жыл бұрын
Exactly lol, I felt like Destiny was trying to solve hypothetical moral delimmas with adjacent ideas from real life which defeats their very purpose. All that just to stick to his original idea lol.
@RyanIsBartending
Жыл бұрын
@@Kyoth3Not true at all. His Argument ist simply that morals are a mechanism by that humanity tries to create the best Environment for the human species because we are part of it and can use the beneficial of said society.
@huntercoxpersonal
7 ай бұрын
AMAZING CONVERSATION, FELLAS! Definitely gained a ton of respect for both parties! 🙏🏻
@eeyun5279
Жыл бұрын
Someone reading back intentionally inflammatory quotes is the funniest shit I’ve ever heard and is probably my favorite thing about watching destiny content, because it happens so much
@Cedrou21
6 ай бұрын
The Piers moment was incredible 😂😂
@czarlito_
Жыл бұрын
We need more of this duo!
@davidmireles9774
Жыл бұрын
🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉❤ yes pleaseeee
@thedcsignal
Жыл бұрын
Please chat again you two. This was fascinating to watch.
@garrettwill1220
8 ай бұрын
Alex justifies a moral objectivity the same way religious people justify God. Religious Person: Ok yeah we can't technically prove God does exist, but can all agree God is Great. Alex at 1:14:00, "Why from an ethical framework are we not able to say that killing babies is objectively bad in the same way we say the earth is round in general epistemology". Not sure if you actually hold this position or it was a critique of Steven's take, but it was very weak.
@MinosML
2 ай бұрын
Alex doesn't actually hold that position himself, he's an emotivist, which is like the ultimate way of saying 'all moral statements are subjective'. He's just pointing out the holes in Steven's views, as per usual.
@happythoughts700
Жыл бұрын
"Where did I go wrong?" Wow. Alex's conversational skills are next level. So logical and intuitive
@Spot-t
Жыл бұрын
Man, what a fantastic collaboration. Really enjoyed the brain massaging interview, you both are super well-read and it's a joy to listen in :)
@Kuhanapomaranca
4 ай бұрын
People like you should really read a book sometimes
@philodemic8797
Жыл бұрын
I really appreciate the way you both articulate. I have been a long time Alex watcher and recently started watching Destiny's stuff. I really find both of your approaches are really good at sinking into my brain in a way I can understand and sometimes sinks deeper into the mind. I would love another podcast on anything no matter what the topic
@VColossalV
Жыл бұрын
destiny's opinions on animals is painfully stupid
@rickypaynetube
6 ай бұрын
Immanuel Kant said "He who is cruel to animals becomes hard also in his dealings with men. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." Destiny's views on Animals really calls into question his ethical considerations across the board. Kant was absolutely correct by the way, and this view aligns with the buddhist idea of not killing anything, not even a small fly. Why? Because if you raise the value of something even just to yourself, then everything you value even higher has to also move upward in relation. If you value and consider the life of even a small fly, then you will value all things more greatly. The converse can also be true. If you hold animals with absolute disregard, then your entire value system will be skewed compared to someone who does. Knowing what I know about Destiny, this certainly appears to be the case.
@mrteco4236
6 ай бұрын
Well you must've missed 2:01:46 then
@GunesAnacak
6 ай бұрын
@@mrteco4236he considers animals as philosophical zombies emaning they are not of any moral worth.So even if he did not torutre animals himself he is okay if some other people torture them.And by the way not to forget he is paying someone for animals be tortured in hisa dily life
@mrteco4236
6 ай бұрын
@@GunesAnacak He view animals as philosophical zombies because there's no way for us to know they aren't. We know humans aren't because we're all the same so it makes sense. He also isn't okay if someone else tortures an animal because that means that that person probably isn't a respectable member of society meaning that person is likely to cause net harm.
@GunesAnacak
6 ай бұрын
@@mrteco4236 how are we all the same sure we are farr more like each other than animals but think ı dont understand is what you value?He says he doesnt value sentience if he did he would value animals as well but he values human sentience.I would ask what separates human sentience from sentience.What ı value is the ability to feel pain and suffering which all beings witha central nervous system does
@LevantWasTaken
Жыл бұрын
Im so glad they're doing this, I hope you guys work together again.
@reasonablevegan
Жыл бұрын
Same! I could go for about 100 hours of them talking.
@PhyseoCyber
Жыл бұрын
In the example of the chocolate bars on the island nobody mentioned the benefit of building rapport and trust with the others you are stranded with. If you find the hidden food yes you can eat it all by yourself, but if you take a gamble and share it with the others you will have gained some of their trust and respect. They know that you could have eaten it on your own without sharing, but the fact that you were willing to share may improve group cohesiveness and improve your chances of survival. You're also going to have a better chance of surviving if you have help to split up the work of hunting, building tools and shelter, defense, etc. Sharing resources is going to improve your situation in all those ways thereby still maximizing your own well being.
@jonbbbb
Жыл бұрын
Yup came here looking for that. I'm not sure I support Destiny's entirely self-centered basis for morality, but I think you've laid out the case for how altruism can be "simulated" out of selfishness. The other possibility Destiny could have brought up is that while you may think you can get away with something, there's always a chance that you get caught. Maybe someone is watching you and you don't know it. Maybe someone else on the island actually hid the chocolate bars there. Maybe someone else also found them, and had just gone off to tell the others. Maybe when you dispose of the chocolate wrappers someone finds them later.
@nezar-6889
Жыл бұрын
On top of that, there is the "good feeling" we get when we are benevolent. I would personally feel like shit if I ate the chocolates behind the backs of others.
@sumpa9967
Жыл бұрын
YESSS I KEPT SHOUTING AT MY PHONE SAYING THIS LMFAO
@U311.61
Жыл бұрын
I wondered the exact same thing. It was such a seemingly obvious point. I remember thinking along time ago how Sam Harris's answers to explicit moral questions sounds hilariously similiar to Ayn Rand's Objectivism. I find that Desinty and Harris have a similiar utilitarian morality- a morality that gives answers to ethical question similiar to Objectivism. Though, I wouldn't argue that the two are asymmetrical in any way, just that the problem of how we conceptualize altruism is hard to reproach.
@Matt-fr2rh
Жыл бұрын
Agree. Also there’s a point where you might satiate on the chocolate. Having 1 or 2 bars might be good but the value of the happiness of other humans might be greater than the happiness of eating the other bars
@albertthomas25
Жыл бұрын
I just recently subscribed to CS and was wondering if he has ever had a discussion with Destiny and now its happened. Amazin!
@reasonablevegan
Жыл бұрын
Hahaha amazin
@zarka223
Жыл бұрын
BEYTA!!
@iurivanastacio3081
Жыл бұрын
Behh...behhtahh
@Style50360
Жыл бұрын
@@zarka223 Gaiiii!!!
@Aisatsana1971
Жыл бұрын
@@Style50360 is that a JLP thing too?
@donkeydudeful
Жыл бұрын
I am an avid Destiny viewer, and I agree with about 90 plus percent on the things he values. I really enjoyed this conversation and I want to hear more from you two. He doesn't usually get people who are on his level of really digging into the foundations of all this stuff. Loved the content, Alex.
@CausallyExplained
Жыл бұрын
He sounds very inconsistent ethically. I'm not sure how anyone can find anything of value from his views?
@loveableheathen7441
Жыл бұрын
I had the impression that destiny is sort of a right-wing troll, just based on the people he typically associates with... Seen him siding with sneako, vaush, and other creeps. I don't know what that guy's deal is. Could you summarize his politics for me?
@samiam7241
Жыл бұрын
@@loveableheathen7441 He classifies himself as an OmniLiberal (A classification he came up with). He sympathizes with Socialists, but believes most societal problems can be solved through capitalism rather than socialism. In summary, hes pretty far left on social issues, but a social democrat on economic issues
@loveableheathen7441
Жыл бұрын
@@samiam7241 thank you
@LevantWasTaken
Жыл бұрын
@@loveableheathen7441 he definitely doesn't side with vaush, and he's friends with sneako but they don't agree on many things
@44below46
Жыл бұрын
There’s a lot of holes in destiny’s philosophy
@ejw1234
4 ай бұрын
He has political beliefs. He's felt a lack of power throughout his life, and he's developed views on how that power is distributed throughout society. It's like someone who has a good ear for music, but then has to go back and understand why they play good music in music theory. The same for Destiny. He'll have to venture back to philosophy to align properly and become consciously competent in his ideas and razor-sharp wit. In some ways, I find him a bit nauseating, but I respect his intellect. Anyone talking about important ideas should be applauded.
@joelonsdale
4 ай бұрын
There ARE a lot of holes. Honestly.
@sunwukong6917
3 ай бұрын
Destiny is a fool with no academic training of any sort
@ejw1234
3 ай бұрын
@@sunwukong6917 appeal to authority is a sign of limited academic training, yet I hear this argument all the time. It's not a valid argument. Destiny is nauseating and too disagreeable. But you need a Destiny around.
@joelonsdale
3 ай бұрын
@davidd836 I'd have to listen to the whole thing again... It's no secret, he's not a philosopher, he openly admits when he's not thought about something or doesn't have an answer. It's interesting to hear him up against someone who has a more rigorous approach.
@haytonthomas
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for pushing him on his strange views on animal experience. Those were by far Destiny's weakest set of arguments and embarrassingly so, in my opinion. I hope he revisits this one day. Great conversation otherwise. Thumbs up!
@punkpacarola
Жыл бұрын
I 100% agree with you. This will be hopefully a change of destiny opinions about animals. This was obviously very weak from destiny to defend
@LoveJungle420
Жыл бұрын
I agree that his views on this are terrible. But Alex came off as such a snob and I have never seen him act this way towards another guest before. I found it off putting and elitist. Way too defensive instead of just trying to have an honest conversation. Or maybe he wanted bloodsports with Destiny for better engagement. Either way, it doesn't suit him.
@CausallyExplained
Жыл бұрын
@@LoveJungle420 I'm not sure if have seen the same video? This was borderline perfect.
@bruhdabones
Жыл бұрын
Totally agree, he often dodged this type of conversation on grounds of it being boring. And to be fair, the random audience guests Destiny brings on don’t usually have intelligent takes on philosophy.
@bruhdabones
Жыл бұрын
@@CausallyExplained he’s just glazing big D
@amiborabee
Жыл бұрын
this year i will start studying philosophy , and sometimes i fear that I won't be up for the task. mentally following along this conversation was so exciting, which is what i love about philosophy. it was sort of reassuring also i'm going through a terrible night of nausea and this podcast helped me through the worst part! love the crossover
@Sarahizahhsum
Жыл бұрын
Hey, try to get some ginger tea or pure ginger. Its great for nausea. Also, mint is good too. The tea, smelling mint essential oils, mint gum. Hope you feel better. ❤
@Shitgotmegeekin
Жыл бұрын
You’ll be fine man, especially if you’ve studied/read philosophy in your free time.
@Theactivepsychos
Жыл бұрын
Most misunderstandings or ignorance stem from a lack of exposure to the language they use. That only comes through time and effort. Anyone can get there.
@MrNagano00
Жыл бұрын
When you start studying you will get to learn about so many different ways of thinking about things from all kinds of philosophy and philosophers. Don't be discouraged and don't be afraid to ask questions even when you think they might be silly. Really try to understand why do people ask questions and how do they get there!
@amiborabee
Жыл бұрын
@@Sarahizahhsum thank you 🩷
@joshh5353
Жыл бұрын
Alex hit the nail on the head suggesting that destiny holds the position he does on animals because he’s simply looking for an excuse to eat meat.
@mohammadmahtabuddin5782
Жыл бұрын
There is no need for an excuse
@BonhartofEbbing
Жыл бұрын
There is when someone can pose questions about the morality of doing so
@mohammadmahtabuddin5782
Жыл бұрын
@@BonhartofEbbing but then I just say what do you mean by morality and show me how you measure something as moral or immoral
@YouShouldAim
Жыл бұрын
Leave it to vegans to boil anyones reasoning down to "you just want to eat meat"
@joshh5353
Жыл бұрын
@@YouShouldAim it’s because of the lack of a reasonable rationalization that we vegans feel that way. It be one thing if someone needed animal products to survive but that’s not the case for destiny. He’s also more or less admitted he wants to continuing eating animal products because not doing so would be a great sacrifice in his quality of life. So yeah, if the shoe fits…
@emmacurtis2270
11 ай бұрын
Thank you for this discussion! It's so rare these days to find civil discourse where ideas are actually exchanged and pondered in good faith. Really interesting points brought up from both parties!
@catboy721
Жыл бұрын
Alex, I loved the way you kept up the challenges to what you were you hearing. Brilliant the way you’re able to think on your feet - like when you nuked the narcissists and turned the tables on the mental argument. Really great conversation.
@JuicyG_
Жыл бұрын
The narcissists in a bomb shelter didnt resolve the issue destiny presented. It felt like a classic philosophy gotcha, the end result would still be a bunch of narcissists killing eachother and collapse of society.
@ROUNDtheWORLDis
Жыл бұрын
I find it hard to believe Destiny could have this Moral view while also having a child. How could someone with a child say their wellbeing only matters in so far as it impacts destinys wellbeing. Is there not an obvious implication that he wouldnt care about his child suffering as long as it didnt negatively impact him? Like there is nothing morally wrong with torturing your child as long as you are not aware of it and it isnt causing you any distress etc. I feel like any parent has the opposite view of morality, that is that the wellbeing of their child matters a lot more. Like most parents I think prefer their child having more wellbeing even if it means a less wellbeing for themselves. I am sure he does care about his child more than himself but seems like an inconsistency in his position if he does.
@Elintasokas
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, and Alex touched on why this is the case: your child matters more for the gene than you do. You are just a vehicle for your genes.
@D.S.handle
Жыл бұрын
But he can as easily say that his wellbeing would depend on the wellbeing of the child. It is as simple as that. He’s just honest when it comes to what is informing his ethics.
@BornGam3r
Жыл бұрын
@@D.S.handle Yea but in this case it actually DOES improve the mental well-being of the parent, whereas with deadbeat or abusive parents, unless they’re psychopaths, it doesn’t.
@ROUNDtheWORLDis
Жыл бұрын
@@D.S.handle Maybe, I find it hard to believe he would bite that bullet though. Can you imagine him actually saying, 'no it would not be wrong if someone tortures and kills my child as long as I am not aware of it there is no negative impact on me'. maybe he would but I cant imagine a parent saying that
@ROUNDtheWORLDis
Жыл бұрын
@@BornGam3r True, its not a great example as seeing your child happy/hurt has big impact on parents wellbeing, the hypothetical only really works if destiny is not aware of his childs wellbeing and it isnt impacting him.
@Lscott-fk2sn
Жыл бұрын
Forgot to mention, to any human that isnt a sociopath or similar, sharing chocolates with others is a benefit to yourself considering that we have evolved to feel good by making people happy, the only exception to this i can think of is sharing to someone you dont like and or doesnt like you.
@Jon.A.Scholt
Жыл бұрын
Based on how destiny views the "sharing chocolate" question, I'm going to guess he is an absolutely trash partner in bed.
@TheSinsOfAvarice97
Жыл бұрын
@Jon A. Scholt Nope multiple women have fucked him with almost none of them talking smack about him
@TheSinsOfAvarice97
Жыл бұрын
@Jon A. Scholt Not to mention he has a wife so I think he is doin fine my guy
@Lscott-fk2sn
Жыл бұрын
@@TheSinsOfAvarice97 Steven crowder had a wife, and he clearly wasnt doing fine. I will say though i have no idea why he brought sex into this lol.
@TheSinsOfAvarice97
Жыл бұрын
@@Lscott-fk2sn Cause crowder is a vindictive dickhead, ayleast from my guess I could be wrong. Destiny isn't a bad guy he just doesn't care that much about these types of conversations I think personally because he hasn't had many people like this dude to push him on it this is my first time seeing him and I'm on his side of the fence but I do think I have an understanding why destiny says what he says
@Iron-Blurr
10 ай бұрын
Wow destiny was completely outmatched here
@Classicalliberal85
7 ай бұрын
nope
@JP-Sphere
9 күн бұрын
Was it a debate or are u just stupid?
@piershanson1784
Жыл бұрын
The discussion in the first section reminds me of the difference between the prisoner's dilemma and the itterated prisoner's dilemma. Roughly speaking, In the former, screwing the other person over is the optimal strategy, but when it becomes itterated, the best performing agents are ones that are roughly benevolent except against those that screw others over.
@Zekaisa
Жыл бұрын
This is game theory, right?
@oscargr_
Жыл бұрын
@@Zekaisa it is.
@piershanson1784
Жыл бұрын
@@Zekaisa Yep
@MetalJams
Жыл бұрын
Damn bruh, Destiny at a loss for words 15 minutes in? If anyone could do it I guess I’m not surprised that it was Alex
@thecarlitosshow7687
Жыл бұрын
That’s what happens when you come across a real philosopher/intellectual unlike all these KZitem “influencers” that are not even pseudo-intellectuals online Lmao
@bradspitt3896
Жыл бұрын
Destiny was always a lightweight. Alex has the actual good faith to study his opponents by majoring in religious studies. Still, Alex is a lightweight too. William Lane Craig has put him in a corner as well. Also still, Craig is a lightweight.
@thecarlitosshow7687
Жыл бұрын
@@bradspitt3896 CS has been challenged well by Frank Turek and A Muslim Apologist who stopped CS many times on his debate too.
@bradspitt3896
Жыл бұрын
@@thecarlitosshow7687 who's CS?
@zetazero5899
Жыл бұрын
@@bradspitt3896 How is Craig a lightweight? Compared to whom? John Lennox?
@jayhooker1
Жыл бұрын
I think the reason that Destiny would share out the five chocolate bars is because of his fundamental principle that more people together will make utility greater than the sum of their utility individually (or whatever he said at the start). Unless having the five chocolate bars yourself really does increase your odds of survival, in which case you can''t really blamed him for keeping them all himself. Can't believe how quickly Cosmic was able to unravel him though. Never seen anyone else come close. Really interesting conversation.
@henryriehl2058
Жыл бұрын
Exactly what I was going to say. Even if you could steal the 5 chocolate bars and get away with it, there is still A LOT of value in keeping the other 4 members on that island alive. The value of hearing other people's thoughts, their intellect, manpower and the general need for humans to socialise would absolutely trump the short term value of keeping those 5 chocolate bars for yourself.
@centerfield6339
Жыл бұрын
He does get unravelled elsewhere; he just deflects normally, or gets annoyed.
@alana.4432
Жыл бұрын
@@centerfield6339 Who does that, redpill dumbfks or woke maniacs?
@waynethegreat23
Жыл бұрын
It's easy with critical thinking
@mekullag
Жыл бұрын
@@kiajuma9881 the other´s survival might not be dependent on the chocolate, since there might be other foods that are just less pleasurable to sustain yourself on. On the other hand, if the chocolate bars are literally the only way to keep from starving because everything else is just sand then the value of cooperation is also immediately zero, because sharing just means you´ll starve quickly together, instead of surviving alone (and then starving).
@danielwalton8633
10 ай бұрын
as a destiny fan and a fellow brit, from both sides, we appreciate you
@yagnapatel3912
9 ай бұрын
ew gross
@User24x
Жыл бұрын
Destiny's worst argument was during the animal ethics part. It basically amounted to "Humans good cuz I'm human."
@arreca09
Жыл бұрын
god you vegans are insufferably emotional *sigh*
@dominic9983
Жыл бұрын
If that’s his intuition about to whom we meter out moral value how would you argue with it?
@Rob749s
Жыл бұрын
A good portion of philosophy rests upon that axiomatically and works backwards, so he's not in bad company.
@howlrichard1028
Жыл бұрын
@@dominic9983 And yet he also said that he would never torture an animal, which implies his intuition tells him it's really not as simple. He can't have it both ways; if only humans matter morally, he should have no problem with the idea of torturing an animal.
@peterp-a-n4743
Жыл бұрын
Massive cringe the whole time. Couldn't even convince me he believes this himself. He just couldn't step down from his untenable position.
@cameron339
Жыл бұрын
Wow Destiny completely dropped the ball on the animal ethics topic. He literally denied that other animals could experience pain like humans do or that other animals experience emotions. Seems like he's completely denying all the peer reviewed research on these topics.
@matthewsands1572
Жыл бұрын
As much as vegans can be insufferably smug and even incorrect on certain claims, this is the one area where people who argue against animal rights generally come up with the most absurd, stupid and proveably false claims imaginable. Denying animal sentience makes no more sense than denying the sentience of other humans. It is painfully obvious that animals are sentient/conscious and experience both physical and emotional pain in a way that is very much comparable to us. We know this with as much certainty as is humanely possible. We can even treat emotional problems in animals with the same drugs ans therapies that we use for humans. Rescue dogs are given anti depressents to help cope with failed rescue attempts. there are countless examples of selfless love from animals towards humans and other animals, even outside of instances of maternal instinct. Destiny just comes across as dumb and dishonest in this area.
@cameron339
Жыл бұрын
@@matthewsands1572 I completely agree. For as intelligent as Destiny is in other areas, I was like really did he just make that argument in regards to animal ethics. I could tell Alex wasn't having any of it either.
@haza123b4
Жыл бұрын
@@matthewsands1572 *"Destiny just comes across as dumb and dishonest in this area." Why are you able to see this and so many others aren't?*
@The_Daliban
Жыл бұрын
What research is there, that shows animals feel pain like humans? Were the even talking about emotions? It was about pain and consciousness, no?
@cameron339
Жыл бұрын
@@The_Daliban Literally do a simple google search and you will see that animals experience pain too. I'm not a vegan, I'm simply pointing out that animals can experience pain and suffering as well. Some perhaps even more so than humans. You can't even demonstrate that you and I experience pain the same way. This is not a hard concept to understand.
@davidpinto-fernandez7132
Жыл бұрын
Alex should keep Destiny around now that you have your podcast and hope Steven get there to visit too
@bourge
Жыл бұрын
As a cute pet😅
@Nathouuuutheone
11 ай бұрын
The whole thing about the sharing of food just makes me think of the prisoner's dilemma. Yeah there may be good in keeping the food for myself, but there is MORE good in sharing it, in fostering community, in keeping fellow humans fed so they can help with other things. I think Steven's position on this is very consistent and reasonable.
@tonygange7636
11 ай бұрын
Depending on the crime, sharing food could foster that crime in the community longer
@th3logician
11 ай бұрын
I think the dilemma also assumes that you are the only person with food which isn’t really consistent with reality. Sharing food encourages other people to share which increases the likelihood of getting food in the future.
@tonygange7636
11 ай бұрын
@@th3logician No it doesn't, means you have less food as I'm sure most aren't savvy in agriculture, nor a long enough time to see fruit/veg regrow
@th3logician
11 ай бұрын
@@tonygange7636 I think you may have misunderstood the analogy. The term 'Food' is a proxy for any resource. I think another thing that is not mentioned is the potential for different kinds of food and our inherent bias toward multiple options. If one person had all chocolate, and another all Caramel, they may disagree as to the value of the individual substances but ultimately will end up in a trade of 'equal value" because BOTH will benefit from the perceived value of the other person's resource. (People value things they don't have over things they do, so whenever people do a trade of equal value they are both gaining something)
@SineN0mine3
9 ай бұрын
If there is a common benefit to sharing the food the dilemma doesn't apply. It's not difficult, however to conceptualise a scenario in which sharing the food doesn't increase your chances of survival. Suppose your supplies are so limited that you have only enough for one person to survive and there's no apparent way to create more of them. Your choice is between sharing the supplies and each living for a few days and then eventually you all die or hoarding the supplies and potentially surviving long enough that you alone are rescued. Many of us still wouldn't hoard the supplies, but that's simply illogical if the only reason we would share is because of an instinct to survive. Even from the evolutionary psychology argument (which are always dubious at best since we have never performed a psychological experiment on a pre-human) it's more beneficial for one member to survive than none. The dilemma stems from the fact that we can imagine (and indeed point to real life scenarios) where altruism simply isn't logical but people will still act altruisticly despite any apparent reason.
@donniejefferson9554
Жыл бұрын
This is kind of wild. Started watching this channel again after at least a year away and within a week I get the dream crossover. This looks fantastic.
@Meow_Zedong
Жыл бұрын
Alex temporarily transformed Steven from a "debate-bro" into a debate brother.
@saintsword23
Жыл бұрын
@@joshrees3413 I don't think that's a fair representation of his position.
@Meow_Zedong
Жыл бұрын
@@joshrees3413 I think he's apathetic to the whole concept, at least for the tasty ones. Meat consumption has been a part of human society for so long that most people have an easy time disregarding, or not even considering, the quality of life for certain animals.
@TimbahOnToast
Жыл бұрын
GREAT person to interview Destiny, i'm excited to listen
@dashwoof
8 ай бұрын
You're both such wonderful forces for critical thought. Loved this!
@RoyGBiv-lc8tv
Жыл бұрын
I’m a Christian but love watching both of you. So glad to see this crossover.
@usmanGTA
Жыл бұрын
Muslim here, first time here, just as happy to be here! Here because of Destiny!
@autisticphaglosophy7128
Жыл бұрын
I hate black people I’m here because of Destiny as well.
@TopHatMate888
Жыл бұрын
how can yall even watch them? this 2 guys are the most anti-religious people out here
@joshuathomas512
Жыл бұрын
Goofys
@juliusfishman7222
Жыл бұрын
So you watch a satanist, and call yourself a Christian
@mctbaggins2084
Жыл бұрын
This was enjoyable as frick. Follow both of these guys and this was just perfect.
@lmao4982
Жыл бұрын
I've been wanting someone to have this conversation with destiny for a long time, glad you did it
@oprin10
10 ай бұрын
How the hell can someone just "not care about animals"? I genuinely cannot understand how that happens?
@ballisticfish1212
8 ай бұрын
I agree it seems so bizarre and implausible that someone could claim to literally not care at all about animal suffering. Like if a dog was getting brutally tortured in front of destiny he’d be like ‘lol i don’t care’ 😂😂?? Strikes me as an edgy take with little considered reasoning behind it
@jasoncole919
7 ай бұрын
Yeah I suspect its not completely genuine which makes it even worse.. he was backtracking towards the end which hints that he thinks they must suffer at least a bit. What an absolute dick
@nozers
3 ай бұрын
are you vegan?
@nozers
3 ай бұрын
he legit said he does care, as in feelings, hes making the point that we shouldnt though
@roykeane1922
Жыл бұрын
Having watched, I’m really not sure what the hype is about. The guest is remarkably out of his depth, I can only assume he has gained credibility discussing other topics?
@heroicmythos8002
Жыл бұрын
I think he's an access point into the intellectual realm for younger people.
@Kuzeru
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, he made a name for himself debating low IQ NPCs like Sneako (it's okay if you don't know him, it speaks for you actually) and he has a cuck mentality too (like Sneako :D)
@ande5460
Жыл бұрын
He is great at discussing these topics and politics as a streamer to his chat and other streamers but Alex definitely shook him here. Funny enough, Alex brought him into his two worst topics, metaethics and veganism.
@user-xg9wb9zs7j
Жыл бұрын
politics
@kev792
Жыл бұрын
Yea he's mostly known for politics not philosophy
@Maya_Ruinz
Жыл бұрын
Overall I think Destiny did fine considering he isn’t a master philosopher who has been studying the field as a job for the last decade.
@menelik6635
Жыл бұрын
He seemed weirdly unprepared to me
@Maya_Ruinz
Жыл бұрын
@@menelik6635 get what people are saying but he is outside of his field with this discussion, he is mostly a political commentator/streamer and there is only so much prep you can do for philosophy discussions. It would be like trying to prepare for a deep religious discussion on the Apostle Pauls ideas about salvation, justification and which Christian groups throughout time follow it best… good luck.. the information needed for that discussion could be endless.
@Senumunu
Жыл бұрын
he has had these debates a thousand times. many times he evades with stories and hypotheticals that shifted the main point into something else.
@CausallyExplained
Жыл бұрын
he has no philosophical itch, very inconsistent with morals.
@obanoodlegod6901
Жыл бұрын
so many comments saying that destinys field isn't philosophy.. guys.. animal ethics isn't some specific philosophical subject that rarely comes up and you have to study, everyone has a view on it and thought about it. Also it's very relevant in politics, because politics isn't only for humans it also effects animals. Would people vote for a politician that tortures or exploits animals and has no remorse? Obviously not, because you would instantly come to conclusions about that persons moral system and ability to empathize, many people would instantly be oppossed to giving that person power to decide anything involving the consideration of wellbeings of others.
@b3r5i7a9n
Жыл бұрын
Love it when people like this come together and talk. Awesome man!
@dawid_dahl
11 ай бұрын
Finally an interesting morality debate. Thank you both! 🙏🏻
@v0id_d3m0n
Жыл бұрын
I loved this conversation. Great pushback from Alex and very interesting topics covered.
@feldwebeljackrum6272
Жыл бұрын
Welp that was our yearly Destiny vegan debate. It went better than the one from last year 😂
@quitmarck
Жыл бұрын
He loses every time
@someoneelse1979
Жыл бұрын
Does anyone else feel that these perfectly timed collaborations happen at a frequency above random chance? I've recently started to pay attention to destiny's content, and earlier today i listened to cosmic skeptic podcast for the first time. Ironically enough, its almost enough to make me a believer
@sibyloftexas
Жыл бұрын
I think it's just the way the white pill algorithm is coming together and doing all these crossovers: huberman podcast, modern wisdom, HealthyGamerGG, Tim Ferriss, Lex Fridman, etc.
@mpmedia6735
Жыл бұрын
Lol what
@lor3608
Жыл бұрын
KZitem algorithm is serving you what you want. Watch 10 woodworking videos and you're going to think its a miracle you are living in an era with so much stuff going on in the world of carving wood.
@MrsYasha1984
Жыл бұрын
Well, I have some personal experience with very 'interesting' timing. Sometimes it could be divine providence, sometimes just coincidence and algorythm. What I think is important: what have you learned espescially from these 'coincidence' videos?
@rorygreen2088
Жыл бұрын
The content fine tuning argument
@BrianDeCosta
5 ай бұрын
I'm shocked I didn't know this conversation happened until just now. Have listened to hours of both these guys in other convos. Already know it'll be well worth it
@Glamerth
Жыл бұрын
Yikes this Destiny guy comes off as a COMPLETE SOCIOPATH!
@hedonismbot3274
Жыл бұрын
Thank you. It is about time people see that. That where the vibes I got from him very quickly because I had many damaged people in my life and sufffered for ignoring it. The uncanny valley feeling is strong in this one. His micro expressions are that of an angry, selfish child that feels superior to everyone else.
@Craxxet
Жыл бұрын
Only 20 minutes in and Destiny flipflops hardcore when having to choose between caring or not caring about the needs/preferences of other people. I.e. answering the question whether the experiences of others have intrinsic moral value or not. If he wants to be an egoist in the ways of Max Stirner he should just go for it and accept the critiques that are commonly aimed at egoism as a philosophy. Or stop saying that he "values the maximization of his own desires above all else" since he obviously subscribe to some non-egotistical ideals about we should build a moral society 🤔
@armandoocana409
Жыл бұрын
I like the way the chocolate bar question puts a strain on Destiny's philosophy as an influencer
@Mon000
Жыл бұрын
Beautiful stuff, just lovely content. Thank you Alex!
@flashytcw8609
Жыл бұрын
Please, we need more of you two together!
@lyraproductions4810
Жыл бұрын
I honestly think Destiny came across really poorly in this conversation, in a really immature way.
@quasaR48
Жыл бұрын
How so
@clorofilaazul
Жыл бұрын
Because it's true. He as a long way to go until his philosophical world view gets some consistency.
@CausallyExplained
Жыл бұрын
Came out poorly in this? lol. He has always been this way, grumpy selfish human being.
@TheAxeter
Жыл бұрын
@@CausallyExplained That's just rude, tasteless comment especially on a debate formated video
@SeldonnHari
Жыл бұрын
Watching his ethics I find that Destiny does something that I find really minimizing to the human and sentient experience, believe that humans have substantially similar experiences to the point they're worth moral consideration. It creates a situation where it doesn't make space for a meaningful sentient experience if it deviates from one's expected frame work. I've come to understand that in the same way a bat's experience is unknowable, so are other people's experiences.
@mab756
6 ай бұрын
Destiny showed his blindspots in the animal ethics part of the convo
@YouWillDoAsYouAreTold
Жыл бұрын
would love to see more like this where you and destiny talk for long periods of time
@reasonablevegan
Жыл бұрын
I want Alex to challenge Ben Shapiro on animal ethics.
@xnellyxs1
Жыл бұрын
Ben Shapiro provided a very good pro vegan argument when asked about it in his Q&A. He was intellectually honest.
@DenKulesteSomFins
Жыл бұрын
@@xnellyxs1 just lip service as far as I'm aware. He gladly took sponsors from butchers last time I checked, and it doesn't seem like he cares at all
@firefly9838
Жыл бұрын
I want to take Alex hunting with me.
@tomwimmenhove4652
Жыл бұрын
I don't think Ben Shapiro has a set of ethics. He pretends to have whatever ethics he thinks his fan-base has.
@ThelemicMagick
Жыл бұрын
@Prima Ethics is simply the branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles. Not sure why you made up your own definition, let alone why it should apply in general?
@curtisben79
Жыл бұрын
Is no one gonna mention how destiny conflated autism with learning disability 🤦
@cogitoergosum9069
Жыл бұрын
PSA: Autism is a disability that significantly impacts the learning process.
@curtisben79
Жыл бұрын
@@cogitoergosum9069 For some people yes, but it is not a learning disability.
@capoman1
Жыл бұрын
18:00 I think the basic justification for morals/ethics comes down to: If I were the most vulnerable, this would principally harm me. And that we all would like to survive our most vulnerable moments.
@YourEyes-wl8ke
3 ай бұрын
arent you generalizing still? "we all" based on what
@capoman1
3 ай бұрын
@@YourEyes-wl8ke Based on observations, what else?
@capoman1
3 ай бұрын
@@YourEyes-wl8ke Do you disagree with the OP?
@SomeJu4n
Жыл бұрын
I think the question on eating all chocolate bars, even if the others would never know, can still be judged from how one would feel knowing what one did. In particular, I don't want to live with the feeling of what I know I'm causing to others (which I will inevitably feel if l eat all bars). So one can make the decision to not eat all bars based on the self, but nonetheless related to how it affects others too.
@yannickm1396
Жыл бұрын
True, and most of us humens need conection to other people to lead happy and fulfilled live's. And who knows how much more time you will have to spend with those people lost on an island. And sharing could strenghten to bond you have with those people. And maybe even after being rescued you would have gained some good friends for live.
@MrYelly
Жыл бұрын
Immediate gratification always feels better as an instant impulse, not so much when starvation sets in before securing a safe escape or means to thrive. In the example of the island of four, group bonding, diplomacy and fairness using said chocolate will serve much better, and longer, despite one of them being a psychopath. All mere animals own empathy to a degree that an understanding or certain coexistance can be formed.
@stonecoldscubasteveo4827
Жыл бұрын
This is only meaningful to you because you have been socialized in a society steeped in Christian ethics that emphasizes guilt as an an internal moral regulating system. If you were raised in a society that used shame instead it would only matter if others knew you ate the bars.
@SomeJu4n
Жыл бұрын
@stonecoldscubasteveo4827 I agree that how we are raised, very likely plays a role, a major one in my personal case, so what you say makes sense to me. I just don't see any reason to be so absolute about it: "the ONLY possible reason".
@stonecoldscubasteveo4827
Жыл бұрын
@@SomeJu4n Well, perhaps it's not the ONLY reason, but I'd stake a lot on it being the primary one. If you were a Mongol in the 13th century, the concept that raping all the women of the villages you conquered was somehow wrong would be silly and alien to you. You would just laugh and carry on after stacking the skulls of all of their male relatives.
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