Thanks for discovering so many problems, far more useful than the "ta-da, it's working!" videos
@noweare1
7 жыл бұрын
LOL, absolutely, that is the real values of these videos
@wesleystuart1100
5 ай бұрын
You have given me a lot of info through your honest and detailed findings.
@lloydprunier4415
7 жыл бұрын
This is getting interesting! After reading through the comments I'm thinking of going back to candles!
@micultimy91
7 жыл бұрын
Sorry to bother you, but when you build something like industrial grade machine, YOU HAVE TO PUT EVERYTHING TO EARTH! If you check the industrial electrical cabinets, you will find there are grounding wires between the cabinet doors and the main cabinet, and between every device inside the cabinet and a main earth copper bar mounted inside the cabinet. So you should try to drill some holes, tap them and connect each and every mobile part of your cnc to the chassy of the machine and then to your earth wire of your power socket. I've used to work with industrial automations and it was a pain in the ass with grounding everything up. When you have a big ass cabinet filled with thousands of bucks of inverters, PLCs and other expensive devices, you don't care how much it would cost the pile of copper wire just for earthing...Good luck! Greetings from Romania!
@trevortippett918
3 жыл бұрын
Hi Iforce2d Thank you for a excellent video . I have just received my spindle & controller & followed your wiring and ever thing worked perfectly
@wightsmodelaircraft
4 жыл бұрын
I do realise that 2 years have gone by so this may not be much use to you but maybe still to others who are watching your videos for the first time. I started building my CNC machine many months ago and had many WTF moments. When things went wrong nothing made sense. But here is the thing. Electrical circuits are entirely predictable. When things become unpredictable it means you having grounding issues. Assuming everything else is wired correctly. The solution is to grab a pen and paper and draw a ground map, making sure that you have covered everything. It should then become obvious which grounds you need and which you don't. The solution is simply to remove the ones you don't need. My problems lasted for weeks and were solved in under 2 hours once I knew how to think about it. Cheers.
@antonviper7803
7 жыл бұрын
You're probably tired of hearing grounding solutions, but they are right. So, your Arduino really needs to be in a metal grounded box, as well as machine frame. (all single wires to a common point on psu case earth) My large cnc table used to float at up to 100v to earth sometimes. A very low current charge, static too, and would give me a quick zap after sliding plastic across it! All grounded and ok now - no zaps either. I'll upload a video of me waving my hand around our 5 Axis machine pcb - I called it "the ghost in the machine" at the time! lol..
@juhopulkkanen
7 жыл бұрын
thank god you uploaded at the right time!!! it just started raining here so i cant fly. thank you
@Coolkeys2009
7 жыл бұрын
Maybe you should draw a system diagram including the grounding, just to make sure you understand exactly what is happening. Earthing and grounding is not only critical for your safety, but the safety of your laptop, arduino as well getting the thing to work reliably. You also need to think carefully about how the multimeter measures resistance and voltages to make sure all the readings your are getting are meaningful to avoid any more fireworks :-) AC at 50hz and higher frequencies and DC, at low an high impedances. By the way is that green link on the spindle psu supply an enable link?
@heyaheyaa
7 жыл бұрын
if it were me I'd try grounding the spindle motor case and whole CNC metalwork AND look at shielding the spindle motor wire (again to common ground) to prevent emi/emc/cross talk problems.... or at the very least try to keep the spindle motor drive wires as far away from the arduino and it's stepper motor wires as possible. But then I'm just a humble mechanical engineer! ☺
@wightsmodelaircraft
4 жыл бұрын
Adding some clarity to my previous comment about removing the grounds you don't need. ie. "Remove the ground loops". For example, when using a shielded cable only connect one end of the shield to ground. Otherwise you will create a loop. Also you may find that you have more than one ground circuit happening. (If you are using more than 1 power supply you should be thinking this way already.) If so, the ground circuits need to be kept completely isolated from one another with the exception that they can all be connected back to a single earth pin on the mains supply. Some people may argue the need for isolation of ground circuits but it can't hurt and may be useful under certain conditions. Fortunately 2 of my friends are electricians and didn't mind helping me out with some good advice. Theoretically all grounds should be at zero volts but this is seldom the case when you have improper shielding acting a receivers, magnetic induction which isn't shielded , various substrates with different resistances such as aluminium and steel, temperature variations throughout the machine , induced eddie currents through the substrate, etc, etc,...
@3roomlab769
7 жыл бұрын
hello, i just started watching. i hope everything is safe. i saw your problems with the earth. i would suggest first having incoming AC power having fused protections and cut-offs. you would need to calculate some power. if you dive a little more into the PWM power supply for the motor, you may also try to discover some mods to make it safer, mainly fuses, output caps at motor side, etc. inspecting the PCB of the power supply will do some good, it will help you to know how well insulated are the sections, etc ... if in doubt, goto EEVBLOG, post some pictures and ask questions. the problem of arduino not working when you spin the motor is due to EMI interference from the motor. alot of the digital sensing are disrupted by the power spikes. it affects everything. you need to couple some low ESR caps and supressor diodes to the motor. but i would suggest solving the PSU AC safety first. the float voltage you see flying all over the place is due to the DC common being a floated voltage, and not sharing the same ground level but of key concern is to ground the AC side first, then find out if the DC have sufficient isolation from the AC, by measuring the AC of the DC output. then solve noise suppression, then solve mechanical accuracy and spindle balancing (ie : wobble)
@jo2lovid
7 жыл бұрын
Possibly the motor running induces current into the frame of the motor. You should earth the motor to the CNC frame using a fly lead back to the frame. However, don't rely on earthing the spindle to the y / z axis frame, else you will be passing current through the bearings and drive shafts. Earth the spindle, and run the wire in the loom with the power lead back to the main frame of the CNC.
@1pcfred
7 жыл бұрын
Usually in these systems there are two grounds, there is logic ground, and power ground. When noise from the power side starts bleeding into the logic side bad things tend to happen.
@AdrianStaicu82
7 жыл бұрын
Probably bad power supply for the spindle, but I would also check the power supply for the stepper motors. If all fails, try to wrap the spindle in a layer of tape and make sure there is no more electric conectivity. Also hang the spindle wires away to avoid any induction problems. So isolate all, and it should hold good for now.
@Howard10Howie
7 жыл бұрын
Throw a large reverse diode on the motor. There's usually nice voltage spike when starting/stopping a dc motir
@bluesquadron593
7 жыл бұрын
I know it is on your expense, but this is very funny! I am glad that i could help.
@mickgibson370
7 жыл бұрын
I think that you have RF between the controllers. You need metal cases and shielded wire. I knew a package machine that had the same problem. I had to shields the wires coming out the processor and installed it a case. 1 I bet that you between the computer to the controller unshielded USB that is only meets a keyboard specification. 2 the controller does not have shield around it (metal case). 3 the wires to the servos need to be shielded. 4 Wires to the spindle motor need be shielded. 5 All shield on the shielded wires and metal cases hook up to ground! It saved a machine from being trashed to that worked after 13 years when I left.
@iforce2d
7 жыл бұрын
jesus christ what a lot of hassle... but I think you are right. I'm uploading a video now that will agree with what you're saying.
@ianide2480
7 жыл бұрын
Might have been mentioned before but, you are going Digital (arduino) to analog (Potentiometer), you need to convert digital to analog..
@iforce2d
7 жыл бұрын
That's what the RC filter does... 4:44
@grahamwise5719
7 жыл бұрын
First comfirm motor is isolated from the metal case, perhaps one side is chassis ground, All touchable metal parts have to grouded. The Laptop might have a weak bias to the mains voltage but is should be floating, A high impeadance meter on voltage can often give false readings on mains AC ground issues. Assuming the motor connections allow the chassis to be mains ground, I would use a good CE marked, not fake "China Export" PSU with mains isolation and use a good current Mosfet for the PWM signal. I have no idea how the potentiometer is used or referenced to ground of the existing PSU. Optical detectors don't like over 30V and are low current so could esilly be 20k, hence low speed. The only way to use the existing PSU is to isolate on mains input with an isolating transformer, but that would cost more than a new PSU with built in isolation, secondly the voltage difference on the Pot and Arduino has to be solved. if you could make the PWM turn a servo on the Pot could be a solution.... I often check supplied PSU with china sourced goods and replace with UK approved PSU to know it is safe. The isolation might test OK but are the gaps 3mm appart between the mains side and the ouput side, often not. Transformers can also provide isolation but how seperated are the windings, the only way is distructive unwinding the wires and insulation layers.
@lasersbee
7 жыл бұрын
Holy crap... It looks like the problem seems to be FM.... F~%king Magic.... ;) There may be internal connections in the Stepper motors or the Spindle causing the ground potential problems. Looks like it may be floating grounds. You are getting voltages but they may be stray voltages at very low current. I'd try disconnecting all the power leads to the Motors and spindle and re-connect one at at a time while checking for the proper Grounding and voltages.
@rayedfarhad8431
7 жыл бұрын
spindle ground and arduino ground have to be the same ground.... just connect spindle ground and arduino ground together
@shaunwhiteley3544
7 жыл бұрын
P.s I "think" it's a emi interference issue, if you can get one person to move the x and y about, power up and spin the spindle from a few meters away and gradually move it closer to your controller board, in my case as it got within about a meter I started getting mis steps. U.K. Connected on same ring main but different power wall sockets ( if that makes a difference)
@kwils6685
7 жыл бұрын
get everything grounded the motor the psu the cnc. then look for the source of that noise I'll bet if you look in that psu you will see lots of missing input filtering parts. Don't see how you could have 100v AC between ground and that motor case? I'd want to hi-pot it but grounding it will fix that one way or another! I've only seen pixies and magic smoke here once before I think on that carbon (in NZdo you use?) fibre(UK) or fiber(Merican) quad.Good luck. Oh and 6 of those E-Bike batteries in series and you can be back in business
@cncdavenz
7 жыл бұрын
Hi, Run and earth wire from the speed controller earth connection to the case of the motor. If you still have problems run a wire from the earth on the speed control to the usb connection metal work and maybe to the negative of the battery. This should solve your problems. Please play safe when playing with mains powered equipment. Unless you are a cat. Send me a PM if you would like to chat. I live just out of Wellington. Cheers Dave.
@anks888
7 жыл бұрын
Ground everything to the same point. The arduino motor controller frame and power supply to mains earth. Lots of voltages floating on each other
@Nejdat
7 жыл бұрын
Hello I am very glad to follow you from my nejdat friend turkey I would like to congratulate you for your channel.
@keremcakir5336
3 жыл бұрын
Merhaba abi bende sizin takipçinizim bu videodaki sorun bende de oluştu makinamın şasesi ahşapken sorun yaşamamıştım fakat aliminyuma dönünce aynısı oldu ne yapmam gerek ben elektronikten tam anlamam hobi amaçlı yapmaktı amacım spindlede sorun çıktı devir verince arduino alarma geçiyor
@GastonSWE
7 жыл бұрын
Of course i don't have any answers, but chassis and ground should yield zero volts to any other chassis and/or ground. Here are a couple of introductory articles. I hope this points you in the right direction. Good luck and have fun! www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274098 www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274099
@mammutit
7 жыл бұрын
whats going on here is that when you power up the motor it turns and the current goes into the motor. as soon as you turn off the power to the motor it continues to rotate for a few seconds and the motor works at an alternator / dynamo whatever you might call it and sends the current back the opposite direction into the arduino, and the current is waaaay beyond what should happen. If you continue to do this it will go up in smoke. You need to have a pull down resistor with a diode for the application so that you direct the back current to earth.
@iforce2d
7 жыл бұрын
I have the same problem whether I turn the motor off again or not.
@mammutit
7 жыл бұрын
then im going to go with what the others say, there is something bad going on with that powersupply that wont let you have common ground
@CraigPerry
7 жыл бұрын
In New Zealand are your neutral and earths commoned together like here in the UK? The laptop charger probably has an earth pin but the plug that goes into the laptop itself probably doesn't? So the laptop, and the arduino's negative, could be floating to a different ground potential than the stuff connected to the psu. That should be unlikely because most laptop chargers have the secondary winding earthed for safety - to avoid this exact scenario. If that were the case though, then you would see no voltage between psu earth and arduino negative. But you do see a voltage... it's AC so possibly a ghost voltage - does your meter have a setting for measuring ghost voltages? Sometimes labelled loZ or similar. It just adds like a 2k resistor in line to drain any ghost voltage from the measurement. If it's not possible to progress that line of thinking you can safely Unplug the laptop and then common the arduino and psu grounds. Use a desktop (USB ports on desktops are referenced to mains earth) or keep the laptop unplugged.
@iforce2d
7 жыл бұрын
Here neutral and earth are separate. Unfortunately unplugging the laptop and commoning the arduino ground and psu grounds gives me the same problem.
@jo2lovid
7 жыл бұрын
NZ uses MEN (Multi earth neutral) where the neutral and earth are tied together in the house meter / distribution cabinet. So earth and neutral are usually at the same potential.
@gerhardtventer2251
7 жыл бұрын
Earth/Ground and neutral is the same thing, comes of the star point of a transformer (Secondary side). The star point get to be grounded and a lead from there will be called the neutral. At your DB (Distribution Board) they are separated so that your Earth Leakage unit can work properly. Back EMF ******TAKE OF THAT EARTH FROM THE MOTOR******
@BeefIngot
7 жыл бұрын
Holy shit so much of this seems deadly as fuck. Like if he palmed the psu and then the chassis, thats 120 volts? The arduino, and I imagine the laptop ground too? Im no electrician but none of that makes sense. I wonder if its just funky cheap power supply problems... I guess il find out later in the series anyways since it looks like he got it all working.
@Xx80Pedro08xX
7 жыл бұрын
connect all the ground together. arduino, power supply and de cnc chassis this shut solve all the voltage difference problems and EMI
@iforce2d
7 жыл бұрын
No thanks: kzitem.info/news/bejne/2mdoqIVvrGd2lawm32s
@Xx80Pedro08xX
7 жыл бұрын
Test using a resistance of 1k or 100 ohm to measure how much current goes Because probably most of the voltage comes from capacitive charge
@1978jra
7 жыл бұрын
All chassis shuold be at the same potential (PSU, spindle, arduino & CNC itself). PSU chassis is already earthed and everything else is more or less floating right now. If I understand situation correctly all grounds(=chassis) are safe to tie to the same potential. (Not POT gnd, treat that as a signal.) Other possibility is to isolate arduino totally from rest of the circuitry. You can also try floating arduino, unplug laptop from mains.
@1978jra
7 жыл бұрын
Safe way to check is that resistor trick.
@iforce2d
7 жыл бұрын
Unfortunately unplugging the laptop still gives the same problem, with or without commoning the arduino ground and psu grounds together.
@Sopheris
7 жыл бұрын
Disconnect arduino and try connecting your machine, usb cable ground and PSU case with resistor/bulb and measure what's the current between them. It should be safe. Also measure steppers coils if they arent shorted to case. If everything is good you can safely short all grounds i think.. Also. Isnt all that arduino problem caused by earth wire that you connected to PSU case at the begining of the video?
@paulhobbs4360
7 жыл бұрын
This. If the current is low enough you can safely connect the grounds together, but you need to use the resistor first so nothing (else) blows up.
@playdav485
7 жыл бұрын
one potential solution is shielding the wires to the motor (earth shield) and also finding if there is a direct connection from one of the motor wires to the motor body (there should not be a connection) ps did you buy the cnc controller from webtec?
@samocooper9070
7 жыл бұрын
I don't have answer to your problem except not using that PSU, but connecting the case will cause current to flow to the earth, which should never happen, you must not have RCD's because they would have tripped. for your safety I would suggest at least using an RCD to the setup man this really does look dangerous..
@apoorvazaveri5483
7 жыл бұрын
It's a wonder no one noticed. There's no connection with the earth!! Basically, The potentiometer regulates the voltage to the motor (standard DC motor ). So, what happened is that there was a direct phase to phase short circuit!!. The voltage from the power supply clashed with the voltage given out by Arduino! Since there was a resistance bridge, there was a violent reaction.
@vehasmaa
7 жыл бұрын
emi filtering... Arduinos voltage rails might have noise that causes latchup...
@gwkdad
7 жыл бұрын
Perhaps you might want to look at the grbl shield for the problem if it is a cheap chinese one like it looks like. I have one like that ($14) and using the 4th axis clone is problematic. Sometimes it rotates too fast and sometimes it actually rotates in the reverse direction that it's suppose to. I will be unable to use it on my build as I need two stepper for the Y axis. I have ordered a much higher quality one from "Hayri" on youtube. Of course maybe your power supply is wacko. :-)
@iforce2d
7 жыл бұрын
I also came across the problem of the cloned motor going in reverse, check the connection where you bridge the DIR pin, mine was not connected properly.
@migano2023
7 жыл бұрын
Voltage is a difference of the potentials, so in my understanding all your grounds should be connected to the mains ground. Googleing around yielded the same result, for example: forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=442202.0 . Maybe you had a loop or false wiring in your first attempt? Maybe try connecting the grounds one by one. But i have no experience with mains power, just with dc. You should check your psu regardless without your cnc circuit... you could also try to use a old computer psu instead. Please be very careful! I really like your videos and you inspired me to build my own drone - it would be very sad if you electrocute yourself :P
@muh1h1
7 жыл бұрын
Getting a "proper" spindle like a kress would have saved you so much headache by now :)
@idontwantachannelimjustcom7745
7 жыл бұрын
however, headaches create content. content pays for more parts.
@iforce2d
7 жыл бұрын
content can be created just as easily without headaches
@idontwantachannelimjustcom7745
7 жыл бұрын
did you try holding the laser closer to the receiver to see if the motor would spin above 25%? also instead of using a laser why not just use an optoisolator ic? it would be fewer parts and probably cheaper. I know banggood has them. Here in the us radio shack has them, I'm not for sure about Australia.
@muh1h1
7 жыл бұрын
Using the Laser thingi is not meant to be a real solution, it was probably just a way to rig something up quickly from stuff he had laying around, to see if the idea of an opto isolator is feasable
@alexscarbro796
7 жыл бұрын
So, I'm guessing the problem is electro-magnetic interference (EMI) radiation from the power supply driving the spindle, amongst other things. I would suggest adding a conductive braid around the spindle and potentiometer cabling and connect this braid to earth at the PSU end. As mentioned in a previous post, also adding a ferrite filter can also help with EMI issues, but it'd go with a braid and physically moving the PSU away from the Arduino to prove that this is indeed the case. The large potentials you see between components does also give me a little concern, but I'm guessing your laptop power supply is not connected to earth and so this can float (by itself) to a potential above Earth. Whilst you're messing around with all of this it may be safer to disconnect your laptop from its power supply so that there is no path to earth if you have another resistor/capacitor "letting the magic smoke out" moments!
@noweare1
7 жыл бұрын
I would think it is more than emi at those voltage levels.
@Fual4eva
7 жыл бұрын
maybe try a thin layer of rubber/plastic(even plastic from a coke bottle perhaps) around the motor to isolate it from the chassis? may not sound like the best idea but the PSU sounds like its a poor design, the motor insulation supposed to be more than 2 megaohms? just an idea in an effort to get you by ;-)
@iforce2d
7 жыл бұрын
I just about broke a screwdriver handle getting the spindle into that clamp. I don't think there is room for anything else.
@Fual4eva
7 жыл бұрын
iforce2d oh bugger :/ sorry to hear that was just a thought.....
@bwack
7 жыл бұрын
If you're 100" sure there is continuity from mains ground to psu chassis, then connected the whole CNC unit to GND. Should be continuity.
@rogermayer5046
4 жыл бұрын
I have the same problem I tried using 2 different power outlets and the machine looses the homing settings for some reason there is feed back going to ground affecting everything on the ground line If I could contact the manufacture of the unit that might help
@glenby2u
7 жыл бұрын
why u measuring ground in AC? dumb question (me being ignorant), cant you use the uno to set an output voltage? replace your pot via a port.
@jac6255
7 жыл бұрын
this is what I do for a living... it doesnt kill so bad when ur getting paid to do it.
@autovisionadvertising9810
2 жыл бұрын
what is the ampere rating of the power supply ?
@habiks
7 жыл бұрын
..you measure the voltage between 2 galvanic isolated power supplys (the one from "usb arduino" is actually from pc's psu)? Maybe it's time to re-learn the basics again.
@lezbriddon
7 жыл бұрын
everything earthed to one point and that point to wall outlet. motor casing, the psu, arduino ground, rails, everything.....
@BIBIwood
7 жыл бұрын
What voltage do you need for the spindle ? If it's 12V, ditch the cheapo power supply and use an ATX power supply from an old PC.
@iforce2d
7 жыл бұрын
100v goo.gl/wyvVMs
@NourMuhammad
7 жыл бұрын
Where does the arduino getting its power from ? Is it from the laptop ? because the laptop also has a common earth with your psu! and those Chinese PSU are very very bad and not recommended at all
@iforce2d
7 жыл бұрын
Yes, from the laptop.
@NourMuhammad
7 жыл бұрын
If you have any access to an isolated Psu for the motor or if you can power it from liner power supply I think that would make difference, if this psu doesn't have proper filtering on its main's inputs, that may cause some issues. Try to power the spindle from some lipos connected in series, I am sure that you have some batteries to do so.
@andrewsweet43
7 жыл бұрын
Try unplugging the laptop from the wall and use it with its battery while doing your experiments. I have been there before trust me! Furthermore, the measurments you are making may not be all that accurate... You are measusing voltage differences with just a plain multimeter with probbably 10MΩ input impedance. This almost always causes "ghost" voltages to appear due to parasitics etc... When measuring voltage differences between grounds, you sould take measures with a multimeter equipped with a "Low Z" voltage scale, or if you don't have one, first connect the two grounds with a resistor (in the ballpark of some KΩ) and then measure the voltage across the resistor with your multimeter. If you continue to see big voltage differences, Huston we have a problem! (and a baaaad chinese PSU) :)
@NourMuhammad
7 жыл бұрын
Ανδρεας Τσιρογιαννης Removing the laptop's plug is a good Idea and worth trying, but I would prefer powering the spindle from a totally different source just for the sake of making sure there is nothing coming out from it wrong. also it is a good Idea to connect your Oscilloscope to the Psu output and see what is happening when you start the spindle.
@RSOFT92
7 жыл бұрын
I total agree! I would rather build a PSU myself (with a nice Transformer) than using this chinese one. Maybe with a Transformer (Galvanic Isolation) and a MOSFET.
@shaunwhiteley3544
7 жыл бұрын
I know this does not help, I have exactly the same issue, I tried to upgrade my Chinese 3020 with that same model of 100v dc power supply and spindle. When the spindle is running the steppers seem to miss steps or stop, re-pressing the move keys (Mach 3) it moves a bit more and stops. My setup came with an existing 48v power supply in the control case, I have been using that, so spindle is running I guess at half power and I have had no issues. Only when connecting the 100v supply just to the spindle do I get problems. Hope you work it out and please explain how you do it! PLEASE! This weekend I'm working on a laser add on with a separate 12v supply, I am hoping I am not going to have the same issue, as the driver for that will be going back to the controller for the ttl signal.
@shaunwhiteley3544
3 жыл бұрын
s s Long time ago but if memory serves it was a ground or earth loop. Make sure you only have one earth connection. Hope that helps
@blacknoire
3 жыл бұрын
Servo bolted to the pot?
@Cambria399
7 жыл бұрын
No you are not meant to use the Mains Earth that way. If there is a mains short your world could light up more than somewhat.
@Cambria399
7 жыл бұрын
I forgot to add GREAT VIDEO SERIES, ta veymuch!
@guangzhouminxuelectronicte1242
3 жыл бұрын
Cooperation request: Hi dear sir,could you tell me how to contact you?we want to cooperate with you,look forward to your reply,thank you.
@1pcfred
7 жыл бұрын
Spinal Tap has nothing on this PSU. It goes to 37!
@Cambria399
7 жыл бұрын
Do you have a schematic available?
@n3r0z3r0
7 жыл бұрын
I posted isolation circuit in your previous video, here is a ling again: imgur.com/SGrNDaU Regarding spindle and arduino hanging, it is highly possible that USB/Serial interface is hanging dew to EM noise and high power pulses. Very common issue.
@mkova186
7 жыл бұрын
flyback diode
@xelionizer
7 жыл бұрын
what in the f*** is that goddam apple doing on that HP!?
@iforce2d
7 жыл бұрын
It's "Apple branded hardware" as per the license conditions for OSX which I had on there previously.
@TheGodbaba95
7 жыл бұрын
why did you bother with laser bullshit? just use an optocoupler
@iforce2d
7 жыл бұрын
Because I have the laser bullshit sitting around here already and I don't have any optocouplers. ok?
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