This video about game design is the Dark Souls of videos about game design.
@AydarBMSTU
7 жыл бұрын
0x20 you are right, bonus points to you for triggering at least one moron :D
@Ten_Thousand_Locusts
7 жыл бұрын
Ephelizard What is your profile picture? It's so cute!
@yawniechan
7 жыл бұрын
It's a sugar glider :3
@Ten_Thousand_Locusts
7 жыл бұрын
Ephelizard That's the cutest thing ever.
@loadingerror9975
7 жыл бұрын
Ephelizard this vid is about game desire I thought it was about putting me to sleep
@Mordalon
7 жыл бұрын
It's really frustrating going into Steam or other online game stores and having the "RPG" section be filled with every game that happens to have leveling and/or a skill tree.
@TheArnoldification
7 жыл бұрын
Same here with roguelikes. Although "RPG" is about as dead as you can be as far as meanings of a category go...
@ChristianWS.
7 жыл бұрын
Mordalon well, to be fair RPG is kinda of a shit not well defined genre besides the Experience and Stats. I mean, if you pick an undeniable Western RPG and compare it to a undeniable Japanese RPG, the only thing that they have in common is really the Exp and stats, at least that's how I see it
@CurtisJensenGames
7 жыл бұрын
Especially because the term "Role-Playing" refers to acting or making choices and playing your role as a team-member, like one always does in Dungeons and Dragons, which it was named after, but most "RPGs" are single player and may or may not have choices.
@TheCastshadows
7 жыл бұрын
My favorite RPG:"Yoshi's Island' I just love "role-playing" as a dinosaur with shoes.
@DillonHinx
7 жыл бұрын
Totally agree here. Just look at Madden NFL Football. EA has already added leveling player stats and Madden 18 will offer a mode to follow a high school player's rise to the NFL. How long before it's considered an RPG?
@Outplayedqt
5 жыл бұрын
11:38 and ironically the only guys creative enough to make a soulslike game entirely different than the landmark ones...is From themselves, with Sekiro
@juanrodriguez9971
5 жыл бұрын
FromSoftwareLike genre
@yuyang889
5 жыл бұрын
I kinda feel like sekiro is too similar to dark souls
@yuyang889
5 жыл бұрын
@@commanderleo neither game has an open world design, both are linear, there are different paths u can take, but still linear
@yuyang889
5 жыл бұрын
@@commanderleo r u brain damaged?
@damnthatsrough970
5 жыл бұрын
冯裕洋 Sekiro is way different than dark souls The combat is way different doesn't have a stamina bar and it's mostly deflecting and damaging the enemy posture You don't lose all your souls once you die and then go back to get them but half of your money and EXP disappear It focuses heavily on stealth in sekiro something you never see in dark souls And you can't level up by using money but by using the memory of the bosses you beat
@RyanHollinger
7 жыл бұрын
It's no surprise it took the Dark Souls' developer to innovate their own design. Bloodborne is still the same game in essence, but the simple switch to offensive over defensive mechanics was enough to make it original in it's own right. The issue I have with games like The Surge is that it doesn't justify some of it's mechanics such as respawning. Dark Souls builds the bonfires and death into it's lore while The Surge just happens to have it.
@InfernalMonsoon
7 жыл бұрын
That is the biggest problem for me with Souls-likes and the biggest area they stumble in - I enjoy them a lot and I think Lords of the Fallen and The Surge are bloody great but the hand waving of lore for certain mechanics is bloody frustrating. Why can my character revive? How are my healing items refilling? What's the rest of the game's world like? It's infuriating how they skip out on something Dark Souls and Demon's Souls did so well.
@arstotzkanatthedmz4486
7 жыл бұрын
Ryan Hollinger Exactly, this guy who made the video just doesn't get it. It's not just the mechanics it was the feeling and the world it built with it
@Sazed0
7 жыл бұрын
You keep posting about how the video creator doesn't "get it" but I think it might be you who can't see the forest for the trees. People keep playing BECAUSE of the mechanics. The world and the atmosphere are a large part of the appeal for the first couple runs, after that you play for the gameplay. You can go on and on about how important the "feeling" is, but at the end of the day, the community exists because of the appeal of the mechanics. You also ignore completely how important the mechanics are to the over-all feeling. That's why it's a great game, because the individual elements aren't distinct, they all come together in support each other in a cohesive whole.
@arstotzkanatthedmz4486
7 жыл бұрын
EvTav Were talking about what makes a good game, and a genre definer. Nioh has good gameplay, doesn't mean it's a good game. And people certainly didn't just play dark souls for the gameplay. Ds1 pvp is dead, ds2 pvp is dead, and ds3 is close to dying. There's only so much you can do with a linear non radiant campaign. Not even Enb plays dark souls anymore. There maybe a tiny few hold outs that think dark souls gameplay is what made it amazing but they are leaving out the whole pie.
@arstotzkanatthedmz4486
7 жыл бұрын
EvTav Stop only reading what you want to read. I NEVER said that any part should be prioritized above another. I'm annoyed he thinks that important parts like environment story telling should be left out if you are trying to make a game as good as dark souls.
@cooldudeachyut
3 жыл бұрын
Imo the key take away from Souls-inspired games I see are: - Well placed checkpoints between hordes of enemies, which you need to activate manually. - You lose experience/currency on death, which you may collect after respawning, from the same location you lost it. - The surprise factor from enemy placements with maybe some subtle foreshadowing preceding it. - Combat mostly designed around 1v1 fights. - Enemies respawn after saving at a checkpoint, or leaving and entering an area. - "Door does not open from this side".
@xellanchaos5386
2 жыл бұрын
Aka, one of my favorite "SoulsLike" games, NOT from From Software, but Bandai Namco, Code Vein. Sure, they have an option, (not originally mentioned as an option, but an option nonetheless,) to go with or without a Partner, which actually has good AI, but it ticks off everything in this list, has it's own lore, and that lore even ties in to another one of their games, which ISN'T based on Dark Souls.
@artimist0315
2 жыл бұрын
So basically Hollow knight is a soul game ? 😅
@MaxIronsThird
2 жыл бұрын
@@xellanchaos5386 Code Vein is a bad Souls clone imo.
@andrews.5212
2 жыл бұрын
Isn't that just action RPG with a fixed save systems? Try the old Runescape with permadeath. Has got everything you point out but no saving. Even better right?
@OCB_Premium
Жыл бұрын
@@artimist0315 soulsvania kek
@thalesdk
6 жыл бұрын
>it's just a renamed versions of estus flask from dark souls >health potion
@seemoore9175
4 жыл бұрын
>health potion
@kirklandday
4 жыл бұрын
@@seemoore9175 health potion health potion
@eavyeavy2864
4 жыл бұрын
Not 4chan
@thesteampunkhorror388
3 жыл бұрын
Yeah a health potion is obviously just a renamed estus flask and not a item name you see in almost every fantasy game with a health bar nah what ya talking about
@gordonross3270
3 жыл бұрын
I think he meant an item that has limited uses, but more uses can be gained from upgrades, and all uses are regained upon resting. Where as in most games, Once you use a health potion, That particular potion is used up and gone.
@WatchdogGoon
7 жыл бұрын
You guys remember when we used to call FPS games "DOOM clones"? Me neither. I was a small child.
@HatedJared
5 жыл бұрын
I remember when Doom was mentioned to be like Wolfenstein 3d.
@bobbykbobette7426
4 жыл бұрын
It was doom-like around here in France.
@rage_2000
4 жыл бұрын
I didn’t even exist
@danielschroedinger2090
4 жыл бұрын
No. But i do remember when open world sandbox games were all called "GTA clones".
@abhishekvvs8622
4 жыл бұрын
@Steven Murphy It actually happened.
@OldyAlbert
7 жыл бұрын
Soulslike games like Lords of the Fallen, The Surge, Nioh, Crash Bandicoot N.sane Trilogy
@timothymclean
7 жыл бұрын
That's the joke.
@hisholiness4537
7 жыл бұрын
+Knight Warrior It is. Nothing in Souls challenged me as much as Crash 1 did.
@corrinflakes9659
7 жыл бұрын
Isaac woosh
@MrOzzification
7 жыл бұрын
Still don't get why the Crash=Dark Souls meme even exists. Crash really isn't _that_ hard as far as oldschool platformers go.
@okagron
7 жыл бұрын
Even as a kid i found the first three Crash games easy, with only a couple of levels being somewhat challenging. Some people are really blowing the difficulty of these games out of proportion.
@hand-drawnanimations8763
5 жыл бұрын
HOLD UP i just realized. *Hardcore Minecraft is a roguelike*
@mammutbrot9230
4 жыл бұрын
Oh yeah youre right!
@radu6772
4 жыл бұрын
I know right?
@edwithano
4 жыл бұрын
Same i was thinking about that mid way through
@ianhamilton350
4 жыл бұрын
Early on Minecraft was intended to be a 3D roguelike similar to Dwarf Fortress
@jeromealday614
4 жыл бұрын
No, Because Minecraft is a sandbox game cause you're allowed to manipulate the world to liking. Unlike Roguelikes which consist "in n out" approach to levels generated.
@Delzak1
7 жыл бұрын
The big difference between Doom and Dark Souls is that Doom spawned an entire new genre where as Dark Souls is spawning a new subgenre much like how Metroid spawned a subgenre of the 2d action platformer. This is the big reason that we had to transition away from calling FPS' "Doom Clones" but never had to transition away from calling Metroidvania games Metroidvania games.
@Delzak1
7 жыл бұрын
Doom spawned the FPS genre because that is the game that popularized it and was generally the mold for later intries for a time. If you want to go back to prototype FPS' then something even earlier than Wolfenstein would be Mazewar.
@1r0zz
7 жыл бұрын
Doom gave birth to the modern cognition of PC era of gaming/market that later was translated in consoles markets. now for a game to be so popular to deserve it's own genre it's hard, especially with the "washing"of such games from light-critics ignoring actual qualities of games from a social, historical and artistic point of view. if not we would have "Nocturne-like" genre (survival horror with fixed camera and focus on action) or "just cause-like" (open world with focus on destruction)... instead we have Resident Evil-clones (that ironically is a clone itself) and GTA-Clone
@Delzak1
7 жыл бұрын
lol if Wolfenstein was the trailblazer, not Doom, why were so many games called Doom Clones instead of Wolfenstein Clones?
@Delzak1
7 жыл бұрын
You're right in that Wolfenstein was a prototype to Doom, but that doesn't mean it's the progenature of the genre as a whole. Think of it like Minecraft versions; Wolfenstein was Beta 1.7 and Doom was Minecraft release version.
@Delzak1
7 жыл бұрын
Sure if you go by that definition then clearly it was Mazewar, which came out nearly 20 years before even Wolfenstein. Under your definition a ton of random games have claim to being the father of FPS, but when you take popularization into account one clear winner comes out which clearly had the most impact on the genre.
@guy3480
5 жыл бұрын
its been 2 years and i am extremely disappointed that *"souls em up"* didnt take off as the genre name
@DamageMaximo
3 жыл бұрын
sure
@dazcarrr
2 жыл бұрын
i will exclusively refer to these in that way now
@night1952
Жыл бұрын
Because the beat and shoot in ****** 'em ups is an action you perform, you don't soul anyone up in souls game, maybe if you count spells like Soul Spear as souling someone up but that's not the core of the genre.
@guy3480
Жыл бұрын
@@night1952 u soul up ur character. Its part of the rpg system they all have. Gotta think outside the box with the name
@dig_doug
Жыл бұрын
I prefer " roll & soul "
@isdel9474
5 жыл бұрын
a soulslike series is just a reverse dynasty warriors, where you're able to get flung into the air like paper and the enemies are the OP avatars of gods.
@RetepAdam
4 жыл бұрын
“Can anybody provide me with a decent breather?”
@propheinx2250
4 жыл бұрын
Imagine that mmo. You're just one amongst hundreds and there's just one AI super enemy out there that can tear through multiple people like they're nothing.
@datboi1861
4 жыл бұрын
@@propheinx2250 Really gives you a different perspective
@bew5230
4 жыл бұрын
@@propheinx2250 great idea
@yonatanbeer3475
4 жыл бұрын
@@propheinx2250 so normal mmos and mmo bosses?
@Nazareadain
7 жыл бұрын
I want to call the new genre of dark souls roll'em'ups. 420 praise it.
@TovenDo.O.Video-
5 жыл бұрын
LMAO
@larseunic
5 жыл бұрын
Rolling sim
@aliquidgaming1068
5 жыл бұрын
......you sir......are a genius
@mysterio1967
4 жыл бұрын
And I was the one to bring the likes to 420
@bloodstaineddot3529
4 жыл бұрын
@@mysterio1967 and i was the one to destroy this achievement
@bitterbatterdog
7 жыл бұрын
Lot's of people seem to be getting the wrong idea of a genre. It is a descriptor, something used to describe games of similar values. I would rather link a small set of games together rather then chuck them on the pile of 90% of all games that is "Action Adventure", because that isn't helping anybody.
@MrDuckyart
7 жыл бұрын
Genre is just a broad category, that's why you have sub-genres. That's like complaining that all novels fall under "Fiction".
@zanthor5422
7 жыл бұрын
Well, action adventure does imply certain qualities, like very involved gameplay and a certain level of exploration. Which not all games have.
@tsartomato
7 жыл бұрын
well there is "species" just below "genus"
@Architects4ever
7 жыл бұрын
It's the very essence of the descriptor that hinders innovation and gameplay development, not necessarily that we associate games within a certain category based in similar categories. However I'm not certain to what extent a game can be innovated beyond what games have the force of influence during a period of development. I would assume that there's a lot of bandwagon jumping on successful game designs which directly associates with the lack of innovation within a certain genre pool. In addition I don't know how easy it actually is to create a game which is completely new barring the basic principles derived from precursor games which were successful; there is a mixture of economic and intellectual pressures which inhibit the growth of innovation.
@TheSquareOnes
6 жыл бұрын
Genres don't hinder innovation, setting out to make "a genre game" can though (although to be fair it can also do the opposite, if you set out to make a new game in a certain style but consciously bring in some fresh gimmick or spin to set it apart). That's on the designer side though, for the users genres are a powerful tool to allow people to find more of the things they like and avoid more of the things they dislike. So as long as the terms are intelligible and widely used enough there's really nothing at all wrong with bringing in more genre names to unify more sub-sets of works.
@matthewcarson3736
5 жыл бұрын
I remember when people were still calling Demon's Souls a hack-'n-slash. My how time flies. To me these "bonfire games" have always been a combination of several other genres, namely hack-'n-slash, metroidvania, and rpg.
@Talking_Ed
4 жыл бұрын
Plus a good story. That's one of the most important things and why most souls like are shitty. They have no mystery, mystery is cool.
@Robert399
4 жыл бұрын
Except we're still in the clone phase. Once that settles down, we may find that there is no common thread except the hack 'n' slash. I wouldn't go quite that far but I think the only criteria are stamina management, animation priority and persistence on death. You add those features onto any third person hack 'n' slash (and rebalance damage, etc. so it doesn't feel shit) and the _primary gameplay loop_ will feel like Dark Souls. That's why I prefer the term "tactical/strategic hack 'n' slash".
@rob5541
3 жыл бұрын
I like "bonfire games". Haha that's a better name
@ermacool
3 жыл бұрын
That's interesting! The combat works as a hack 'n slash, the story and level management work as a rpg, and the connected world works as a metroidvania, I never thought in that way until now.
@sandyholmerin2925
3 жыл бұрын
Except a lot of them aren't metroidvainas anymore that was mainly the first dark souls and some of it's clones
@AnonymousBadassery
7 жыл бұрын
I've had this discussion a lot with friends, most imitators of an iconic game try to make what they view it as, and usually miss the mark on what made it so good to begin with. You end up with a slightly empty game that is evocative of the original, but leaves you thinking "why don't I just play that instead". That being said I think Dark Souls and Bloodborne encompass what you were saying about taking a concept and making it a genre. I played both to completion and they still feel like entirely different games to me, you just have to look at some different boxes. This is how they would look in my book: Dark Souls - Intentional combat (make your swings count, and don't get too risky or you'll be punished) - Resource management (Set number of flasks, need them to last from bonfire to bonfire) - Fair patterned bosses (Bosses have set routines with obvious areas to attack) - Gear Weight management (Do I want more defense and less mobility, or more mobility and less defense) - Structural level design (Levels are designed with some semblance of realism and connect logically) - Sharp Increasing power level (start out weak, but get stronger in power and in sustainability as game goes on) - Under-doggedness (fights leave player feeling disadvantaged and afraid, shown in victory message "victory achieved") Bloodborne - Aggressive combat (Taking risks is rewarded, as health can be regained by attacking more) - Situational preparedness (all items have set quantities, and bringing the right items affects success dramatically) - High-difficulty bosses (Bosses attack with intensity and rarely give the player clear open windows to strike) - Gear optimization management (Gear has no weight, but bringing the right clothes/runes/weapons into combat is important) - Dreamlike level design (Levels are made with little sense of realism and do not connect as logically) - Light slope power level (Start out powerful, end feeling slightly more powerful, end bosses still 1-3 shot you regardless) - Power fantasy (You're out to hunt your prey, not survive against it shown in victory message "prey slaughtered") This is just a quick write up, but hopefully it shows how two games that start with the same concepts are approached and feel very different from each other. Ironically both are put out by the same studio, but hopefully other developers will catch onto the nuance and leave us with some interesting new places to push this potential genre.
@1r0zz
7 жыл бұрын
bloodborne is not a powerfantasy. everything in the game is cohesively designed to make you feel contrasted by higher and higher levels of cosmic horror. power fantasies makes you play out repressed feelings with empowerment ("Rus-fo-da" in skyrim). bloodborne keeps you facing insanity without much power or abilities.
@magnusm4
7 жыл бұрын
Or somebody make a new game but everyone calls it some genre it isn't just because it happens to have one aspect that for some reason is fucking copyrighted to a single game. If it's a large map to backtrack NO SHIT do I want a map telling me where I am. It's not metroidvania it's fucking Doom, they had the same thing and it's a simple fucking tool that's common no shit sensical to have in a large game. Do you want to play Ori And The Blind Forest without the damn map just so people stop calling it metroidvania!
@radoflamer
7 жыл бұрын
"When we reduce a game down to it's constituent components, dev's can copy them and end up with pretty much the same game as the original developer, but if we consider why those features were the way they were, and what sort of experience they lead to, devs can find different ways to give gamers that same feeling" - Mark Brown, 2017. This is something I've been speaking about lately, especially with the MMO Genre. There are lots of games which try to be World of Warcraft. But very few actually manage it. Weirdly, even Wildstar which is made by a lot of Vanilla WoW Developers, also misses why certain elements were addicting and successful (I actually wrote an article on Wildstar Housing about this)
@potaterjim
5 жыл бұрын
The problem is mmo's are one of, if not the most capital-intensive genre to break into. Indie developers can get by and make a lengthy, story driven game without relying on AAA voice talent or motion capture, and it'll still be good, because those things aren't crucial to the experience, but only big name companies can afford the server costs and technical support staff, and the plethora other costs an mmo incurs. So the only ones left making mmo's are corporations. Indie devs make games with passion, because they want to. Corporations make games because they want to make money, which isn't inherently evil, but it means that they're constantly going off a formula to take as little risk as possible, and given mmo's substantial investment as it is, no company is willing to take the dive and try to break new ground on something that could fail. That's why every single korean mmo is pretty much exactly the same thing, it's an industry unto itself: Make an mmo cheaply and effectively, with shiny graphics and cosmetic wing accessories on a cash shop, throw in at least one "groundbreaking" new feature (tera's real time cobat, FLYFF's flying, blade and souls slightly different real time combat) to entice the audience TL;DR mmo's are a genre run by fiscally responsible businessmen with no margin for creativity or risk
@lawamoli
4 жыл бұрын
lol. just when i started reading the comment, Mark said exactly the Same thing.
@EricJacobusOfficial
5 жыл бұрын
This is amazing insight. Thank you!
@jacjg3629
3 жыл бұрын
ok
@abyssawalker
3 жыл бұрын
You mean insight 99? 👀
@yetanotheryoutuber4271
7 жыл бұрын
What they all miss in my opinion is that Dark Souls wasn't just about the combat. It was also about the ominous atmosphere, the not-in-your-face story telling, the realistic (and beautiful) armour sets and weapons, the highly unique dark fantasy setting, the unique level design, the multiple linear pathways (not quite open world) that give very specific and grueling challenges in between save points, and last but not least: the incredible and original role playing system of covenants and multiplayer. While the combat is brilliant, there is so much more that makes a "souls" game.
@F4c2a
7 жыл бұрын
No, what they are missing IS the combat. Name me ONE OTHER GAME that has different swing heights/lengths and hitboxes so accurate you dodge something by crouching as you're doing a low attack. PLEASE I would like to know.
@CansinoDX
7 жыл бұрын
Chivalry
@libertylemonz7145
7 жыл бұрын
Most modern fighting games
@ascii_9727
7 жыл бұрын
F4c2a are you actually trying to say that dark souls has accurate hitboxes? are you kidding me?
@Tropcopter
7 жыл бұрын
Sam Lowry The sound design in most Souls clones is also really mediocre. Sound plays a massive, underappreciated,role in the immersion factor of the world as well as the visceral feedback of the combat. Things like subtle ambient noises from the environment, the effect you hear when your weapon impacts a target, the growls and roars of the enemies, the rewarding and satisfying sound from parrying/riposting someone - they all contribute to what makes the Souls experience so damn outstanding, and yet the developers that are supposedly "inspired" by FromSoft's formula rarely consider or acknowledge it
@ItsTheRedKirby
7 жыл бұрын
"Action warm ups, animation priority, and stamina management." So Monster Hunter? :O
@Kenionatus
4 жыл бұрын
You see: it means something different to everyone. :) (also: necroing)
@mariot8732
4 жыл бұрын
I only have played world, but they have a similar feeling, specially with DS3 or Bloodborne. When I am in a high difficulty quests it is practically a Dark Souls with a new graphics with all the one shots I get when I make a mistake and because I play with bow and it is all about stamina management.
@mr.angryman3599
4 жыл бұрын
@@mariot8732 yeah but monster hunter is way older than dark souls and monster hunter world literally being the easiest in the franchise is odd to be compared to dark souls
@AngelMartinez-kd2kp
4 жыл бұрын
Monster hunter has elements that the Souls game borrow but I wouldn’t classify it like a souls games otherwise horizon zero dawn would be a souls game too
@mrknowitall5072
4 жыл бұрын
Those are two entirely different games
@박동민-e6s
4 жыл бұрын
10:16 small something i would like to add. Once there is a formula the marketing team will use that too predict sales. In other words games that do not follow the formula will be regarded as dangerous investment.
@happyfundave
7 жыл бұрын
I call them Bonfire games.
@Rekhan4242
7 жыл бұрын
MogwaiInjustice I like that, best suggestion so far! Because it helps define what makes it different then say Monster Hunter
@Felipera_
7 жыл бұрын
Bonfire Simulator 2k18
@ShjadeNexayre
7 жыл бұрын
Ehh...I get the appeal of the name, but a LOT of games use checkpoint systems for progress. It's not exactly a helpful descriptor.
@isaacargesmith8217
7 жыл бұрын
Slow burn combat games seems to describe them well.
@Vashetrockner
7 жыл бұрын
You shouldn't , because there is "Bonfire Studios". Formed by Rob Pardo and other devs that left Blizzard and the diablo Team. Stuff would get really confusing ^^
@Crurzor
7 жыл бұрын
The interesting thing about Dark Souls specifically is that it captures a lot of the exploratory essence of Metroidvanias with its interconnected world, bosses and items. For a while I actually thought of Dark Souls as the first proper 3D Castlevania game. Great video! Thanks for the tasty food for thought.
@VandalCabbage
7 жыл бұрын
Crurzor I was going to say the same thing, I completely agree.
@tcrpgfan
7 жыл бұрын
It even has that element of planning and strategy for different scenarios!
@Mordalon
7 жыл бұрын
+Belphegor666Iam Initially Souls games can feel aggressive like that, but you soon realize in these games that Souls are ephemeral and you can always get more. Suicide runs to certain items are a common strategy in subsequent playthroughs of Souls games, which is a major benefit to the high-level DLCs of Bloodborne and DS3 being accessible very early in the game, because you can just run past enemies and pick up the weapons you know where they are. Also, you learn to recognize ambushes and how to approach areas cautiously. While exploring may not be easy in Souls games, it's very much rewarded, because it's how you find shortcuts and unique weapons and other useful items, and sometimes even lore or important characters.
@Elonyx.studios
7 жыл бұрын
Would you say it's a 3D Metroidvania, or 3D Classic Castlevania? (the NES trilogy & super) Cuz while you're right in that it does all the things from the Metroidvania's, I say it's also a modern equivalent of the classic games. The old Castlevania games where designed in a way so that players who tried to rush through levels would inevitably die quickly due to the clunky movement and slow attacks, forcing the player to approach every situation with careful calculation and caution. Likewise in Dark Souls, the fact that you die easily from grunts, the frequent uses of ambushes and your long startup attacks, also force you to play defensively and safer with precise planning and calculation.
@Crurzor
7 жыл бұрын
Short answer: Yes. Dark Souls is everything I love about both types of Castlevania games, while also brining it's own "flavour" to the table. Though, sadly, later DS games streamlined the world design in a way that removed it a bit to far from the SotN-style for my taste. (Demons Souls exists in a bit of a grey area, as although the world is separated by stages, all the stages are design with exploration in mind. Perhaps it can be likened to the different sectors in Metoid Fusion?)
@SoShiBias
7 жыл бұрын
Things to take from Dark Souls: 1) Subtle storytelling with a sense of grounded facts. From characters, sceneries, and items. 2) World building, how everything ropes together, making the world believable. 3) Engaging multiplayer communication, leaving long-term discussion going on *outside* the game. 4) Level design that awards keen-eyed observation, and ease in traverse. A lot of the general takes on 'soulslike' these days are something on the surface level. Dark Souls is not just about 'Z-targeting' combat or how hard and brutal it is, yet we very often see newcomers market their games like "hard and challenging like Dark Souls". That's a marketing buzzword at this point. Every games can be difficult in their own ways, not the Dark Souls way. Every game can do the points above their own ways, not just 'Z-targeting' way~
@OreallyR17
7 жыл бұрын
I for one have had my fill of the subtle storytelling and the nonstop "Everything is depressing and is fuck." atmosphere. But can't get enough of the z-targeting challenging combat, and minimum hand holding. But so far most Soulslikes bring that "fucked" atmosphere into their clone. Fuck me I mind as well go play Dark Souls if you're going to pull that shit.
@johnbrennan2988
7 жыл бұрын
Oreally , yea I totally agree with being over the bleak depressing atmosphere but addicted to that style of combat which is something my friends can't seem to comprehend when I try explaining it. I can't wait for more games that take aspects of this game (namely the combat) and put it into worlds that I long to inhabbit (like a Breath of the wild almost)
@Heh-Pingas
7 жыл бұрын
I agree with you, but it needs to be said, when talking about the game world coming together in Dark Souls. Lava lake on top of a windmill.
@SoShiBias
7 жыл бұрын
Hahahaha you see, that is why I insist using the name Dark Souls, without the word 'series'. I love Dark Souls, I like Dark Souls 2. Still, wanna give props to the DLC levels of the sequel. Lava is a tricky one, put them into a different space!
@Heh-Pingas
7 жыл бұрын
For sure, man, haha. Looking at individual games, and putting rose-tinted glasses aside, I can't *really* fault Dark Souls 1's world, and there only the one issue I have with Dark Souls 2. And to be fair, I think all the DLCs across all the SoulsBorne games have come through easily, being put into completely new areas. Ultimately a good choice, in my mind - makes the world still feel cohesive.
@Sean27007
7 жыл бұрын
don't know why, but I think Mark Brown may like spelunky
@isaac8228
4 жыл бұрын
there's always a spelunky in every video. ahaha
@Paulito-ym4qc
4 жыл бұрын
what makes you think that?
@eklof2757
3 жыл бұрын
Who is this spelunky? I like romance
@ステラ死
4 жыл бұрын
"Immersive sim, which while it's not baked into the name is inspired by Deus Ex" *BUT DEUS EX GOT ITS IDEAS FROM SYSTEM SHOCK*
@revimfadli4666
3 жыл бұрын
It's a chicken-or-egg question though; Was "systemic games" named after System Shock, or was the game named as such because it's systemic?
@Orange_Swirl
3 жыл бұрын
Which got ITS ideas from Ultima Underworld.
@ASPECTICORTRAININGVIDEOS
3 жыл бұрын
Yeah, and with FPS Doom Clones were inspired by doom which is a refined and easier to play version of Wolfenstein 3D
@Alactrium
7 жыл бұрын
I personally think that the Monster Hunter series is an interesting take on some aspects of this "genre". (though they are actually older) Respect towards the enemy is a central aspect of those games. They can take you down just as easily as you take them down. You can only win, if you think about what you're doing. If I were to define the core of this new genre, this would certainly be a part of it.
@drizzt7dourden7
7 жыл бұрын
THANK YOU!!! thats the phrase i have been looking for ^^ "respect towards the enemy" its an aspect i realy miss in so many other RPGs... just rinning into a group of enemys and hacking them to bits is just... not the same.
@NabsterHax
7 жыл бұрын
That's definitely one aspect of Dark Souls. And also one of other games like Kingdom Hearts 2 FM Critical Mode (even though you can feel very powerful in it). It's when an expert who knows what he's doing can run circles around things for days but one mistake will kill you. It's essentially just a proper skill curve, and ends up giving you a similar satisfaction of accomplishment akin to learning to play a song on an instrument or getting really good at something else. I feel beating a difficult track on osu! - a rhythm game - is more similar to beating a Dark Souls boss than playing something like Dynasty Warriors. Even though the theme is much closer in the latter, it's not about precisely timed inputs and a great risk of failure.
@moomoocow350
7 жыл бұрын
That's absolutely right. When it comes to the three things Brown said might "define" the genre of souls-related games (action warm-ups, animation priority, stamina management), Monster Hunter pioneered all three of them, and I'm fairly certain From Soft has directly said they took inspiration from the series. Dark Souls could easily be considered a Monster Hunter-like, but with added RPG elements like a leveling system. I think the most useful concept in this video is breaking down genres into several different pieces, which can be mixed an matched for interesting games. The closer a game adheres to the list of genre conventions, the easier it is to classify, but it probably would feel less innovative. On the other hand, games with very few genre requirements can have a wide variety of different games in them, but that just means the terminology itself becomes less useful. Perhaps instead of basing FPS's on just two or three tropes, or defining "Soulslikes" with a huge list of ~15, we should focus on creating genre definitions with a number that's more manageable and useful, like... I dunno, five-ish? I loved Nioh, but that's just because I like DS, and I like the aesthetic. It's still a clone, because it adheres extra-strongly to the conventions laid out by DS, much more so than games that just happen to be in the same genre. But placing Monster Hunter in the same genre as DS and Nioh feels a bit weird, am I right? Even if the combat is similar, the overall differences in broad sections of gameplay are overwhelming. I dunno, I think I started rambling there.
@ToveriJuri
7 жыл бұрын
respect towards the enemy is not a defining characteristic of Kingdom Hearts, especially if you have to point out a specific mode for it to be so. I never really felt like I had to respect the enemy in a *regular* playthrough of a KH game unless I was fighting some superboss at which point a lot of games demand you to respect the enemy.
@RealQwaqa
7 жыл бұрын
This is literally the first time I've heard the term "immersive sim" or that Thief is treated like a some failed prototype. I am so confused.
@GarretsShadow
5 жыл бұрын
Glad to see some love shown for Thief's contribution to the development of the Immersive Sim. It's not often mentioned in connection with this design philosophy, probably because it came before the seminal Deus Ex (a game which codified the style in many people's minds), but it's a great example of how this type of design can be applied in a different way than the typical "lethal or non lethal, stealth or combat, rpg character building" dynamic.
@gaetanvote1576
7 жыл бұрын
"wow I died and I have to start again ? It's just like Dark Souls !!!! Wow, you mean there are enemies that can kill you ? Just like dark souls !!" Dark souls is one of my favorite game and is both innovating and inspired by former games. But it managed to create something so unique by mixing differents mecanism and adjusting all of them together so well. but right now, people compare everything to it for no reason just because it has something in common with dark souls: very mysterious story without any clear backside story but the clues in the world, Great interconnected level design, epic music or huge boss fight, even HP potions. But hey, dark souls hasn't invented any of these. It just used it so well to create strong feelings and game sensations. There is no such things as a Dark souls genre. Even DKS 3 was close to a DKS 1 clone but it stilled managed to distinguished itself to be an excellent game. According to me, Dark souls hasn't invented things like zelda invented 3d mechanics gameplay or "Pong" invented pvp. It perfected already existing mechanics and put them together to make a coherent whole. So you can't create a complete new genre based on Dark Souls.
@observer8477
4 жыл бұрын
it doesnt matter if clones for me if you make games like dark souls,sekiro.others are awesome for me too,like i said on my other comment ,darksiders 2-3,castlevania lords of shadows 2,hellblade senuas sacrifice,jedi fallen order,code vein,ghost of tsushima.all of them have roll,lock on,different plots and stuff.try them ,i see you like dark souls i think you will like those too,so i dont mind cloning or similarities as long as there good...
@hellsing3062
4 жыл бұрын
I think you said it really well. Especially the last para, stating some of the differences that dark souls has to the likes of Zelda or pong.
@Aiden-Ed
4 жыл бұрын
You summed up my problem with people hating on soulslike games.
@wittyjoker4631
4 жыл бұрын
Yea the original resident evil had back tracking interconnected level design that really made short cuts a value. It also progressed the story by way of in game items.
@FortressOfGamer
4 жыл бұрын
This video is very relevant again after Sekiro's release and GOTY award. That game removes a lot of what is a staple of the series, like stamina management, stats and other RPG elements, to the point where some fans of the series even hated it. Most importantly, dodge is not very useful on it as it is on the Souls games. The influence of Souls can still be felt on it, but can every hard game with checkpoints and healing items be called a Soulslike?
@adityaanuragi6916
2 жыл бұрын
I've never played sekiro so how did it cover the same feel as the dark souls game since the dodge isn't as good anymore
@elliotyorkcameron793
2 жыл бұрын
@@adityaanuragi6916 Are you implying that the "feel" of Dark Souls is entirely based around dodging? Sekiro has plenty of elements in common with Dark Souls: environmental storytelling, branching paths, deliberate combat, a lonely and isolating atmosphere, limited healing uses that reset upon rest, challenging boss encounters, currency punishment upon death, etc. But it also has plenty of differences that set it apart from Dark Souls (and even Demon's Souls or Bloodborne): there's no corpse run mechanic, combat is much faster paced, there is less of an emphasis on dodging, blocking is discouraged in favour of parrying, level design is much more open and vertical, there are no classes or character customisation, no armor or weapon builds, there is a more set plot and character to follow. I think Sekiro is a great balance of a game that is clearly taking a lot of influence from Dark Souls but pushing it in a fresh and different direction.
@notproductiveproductions3504
Жыл бұрын
Yea turns out the essence of the genre is turn based real time and no one’s gonna admit it
@BaronKrool
4 жыл бұрын
I rewatch this video every couple of months because it is absolute gold. It's about video game genres specifically, but this is literally how ALL media works. Music, books, movies, EVERYTHING. It's constantly growing and changing the more people get inspired to create, which then inspires others. This is how culture evolves and grows. Humanity is fucking amazing.
@RiamsWorld
4 жыл бұрын
I would take this a step further outside "media" and say it's a useful framework to think about how all categorization of creativity works, even ones where we don't typically use the term "genre". There's a constant tension between using what works and expanding beyond it, and what we consider "beyond it" depends on how you frame what it as (a sort of Sapir-Whorfian effect). Take for example, food. How we think about a dish or a cuisine, focusing on keeping it true to some romanticized original, or abstracting the core elements of what makes it enjoyable, to be creative and explore new boundaries. Like people getting into arguments about what is or isn't pizza. By trying to compare something like Deep dish pizza(clone) to Neopolitan "pizza", you're canonizing one type of pizza as somehow perfect, rather than a few abstract elements that people like(tomato sauce, cheese, flatbread). To an extent, I've seen attempts to broaden it, often with the use of the term "flatbreads" to refer to pizza-like dishes that are toppings with a bread based that can be eaten as finger food. With food, the two main things that tend to be tweaked are flavor and form factor. So pizza made into a casserole, as deep dish is sometimes called, is tweaking the form factor but keeping the tomato/cheese/bread flavor, while tweaking the flavor like white pizzas or dessert pizzas but keeping the sliced finger food on a crispy flatbread keeps the same form factor and is a different approach. Maybe more successfully in the US, the idea of "tapas" has been broadened from typical Spanish bar food, to a category sometimes called "small plates". The boundary of what's a dish and what's a category of dishes is fuzzier than people realize. Eggs Benedict can be thought of as a dish, but there's plenty of clones, using smoked salmon, crab cakes, etc. At some point, you could consider Eggs Benedict a genre/category of dishes involving english muffins, hollandaise, meat and poached egg. Or you could take it further with all sorts of variation, from replacements of the English mufffin with biscuits, bagel, waffles, etc, the egg could be scrambled, the sauce is anything thick and gooey like melted cheese, at which point, you may think of the Eggs Benedict genre as just an open faced breakfast sandwich genre.
@Kinuhbud
6 жыл бұрын
"Kingsfield-like"
@willalbinclark
7 жыл бұрын
really appreciate the re-done visuals and graphics in this. your content was always been impeccable and lately your editing style and obsessive details in videos have been outstanding. loved these dynamic transitions you keep introducing with that mirrors edge 1 to 2 roll transition, and this episodes thief torch fade to black transition. so i really welcome these new coloured backgrounds and bold serif typo. so nice seeing content that is both equally worth-wile to understand as it is to watch. keep up the good work mark.
@wompwomp9946
7 жыл бұрын
As someone who played Demon's Souls first and loved it, I wish more people could experience it as its own thing like I got to. It's got a strange sense of humor to it.
@baseysmint
7 жыл бұрын
hey Mark, you're not a bad person
@GMTK
7 жыл бұрын
Thanks, I try
@Blackthornprod
5 жыл бұрын
Is it just me, or as this video changed since I last saw it ? Anyway, amazing work Mark, definitely a video I'll be rewatching, it's just so full of interesting stuff :) !
@pxlz0729
2 жыл бұрын
You’re one of my favorite creators!
@riimumaisema
7 жыл бұрын
why would i want genres to be broadly defined? thats not helpful for me when im looking for a specific experience. perfect examples are "first person shooter" or "rpg" which dont mean anything nowadays
@Intoxicatious
7 жыл бұрын
None of the base-level genres mean much in gaming today. I find the Steam tag system to be a little more defining, but ultimately a game usually needs a paragraph, or a Let's Play, to fully understand the style and mechanics.
@sugoiuseismoeabuse4058
7 жыл бұрын
Not to mention even in well established mediums such as novels and films they still have genres to help define what type of experience you'll get, much to the chagrin of others who desperately try to defy said genres and ironically go into the "try too hard to not be genre fiction."
@sugoiuseismoeabuse4058
7 жыл бұрын
+Wimpleton Duck Go to a music forum Ask what genres are real and not gimmicks Watch the ensuing shoutfest
@Yzerbruh
7 жыл бұрын
Wimpleton Duck It's funny you specifically called out metal, because for pretty much every music genre, there is a subgenre of metal that uses the same kind of structure 'specific' to that genre. EG Trash Metal and Jazz have the same form structure, despite sounding wildly different.
@SianaGearz
7 жыл бұрын
Ah good that we have Ishkur as the world authority on naming at least electronic music genres. But then again, new subgenres occur daily, and he's always 10 years behind.
@shiloh6915
6 жыл бұрын
This video also doesn't take into account people making "clones" to try grab onto a title's popularity to make a little more profit. I guess that's why we can look down on these game trends quickly sprouting up and have a negative backlash to them, calling them all "clones" or "(game title)like", no matter if their intentions are sincere or not. It is interesting that a genre is a group of works that have a similar principles, designs, or goals, yet games can focus on really complex, hyperspecific "sub-genere" where we have metriodvania or rogue like. Some times we can even use these words without knowing where they came from or why, but to describe an idea. I learned today about the origin of "rogue". Yet i used it to describe games that focuses on reparability through randomly generated factors. On a completely different note, I can't help but think of the time Totalbisucit was so made and irratated on the term "rogue like" he made an one hour video talking about and dissecting it. That was a while ago.... I might need to go back and watch that. This comment is everywhere. Congrats to you for reading... if you find it among the 2,413+ other comments :)
@BeMoreWeird
2 жыл бұрын
I would suggest that the naming of a genre after its parent game might be less responsible for cookie-cutter remakes than the simple success of the game. When some title is on all the gaming news headlines and they start selling merch for it at Target, many companies try to clamber into that space to have a taste of that success. Like with battle royale games somewhat recently.
@Aboveup
7 жыл бұрын
The bit about genre classifications for roguelites would be a good point if it wasn't the developers for those games coming up with the different names themselves so as not to be put into the roguelike genre they didn't want their games classified as. It wasn't the players who wanted to move away from the roguelike classifications. Even Rogue Legacy, despite having rogue in its name, attempted to move out of the genre's name by coining itself as a Roguelite. It's the same for a lot of the games within the more modern push of rogue mechanics. So no, it's not bitter players upset a genre got wider. It's developers wanting to move on from the comparison you're sticking them back under. Especially because the more traditional sense of the genre is also still alive, moving forward with new games under its classification. They're two different entities at this point, and there is crossover between the playerbases even if it's not a complete overlap.
@Bogglemanify
7 жыл бұрын
If i remember correctly, the developer for Rogue legacy is one of the first to use the "rogue lite" term
@Aboveup
7 жыл бұрын
He is, yes. To move away from the typical judgements and audiences you get from the term "roguelike." Most people who really get into the platformers, and shooters, and more modern games tend to be more okay with the name "roguelite." It's stuck since. Interestingly enough, traditional roguelike games have moved forward in design a lot too. With Rogue and Nethack originally being just dungeon crawlers, and most of the more recent games having open world and sandbox elements to them. Though they graphically still underrepresent what is going on, mechanically, they've come a long way. Even the original Diablo was originally an offshoot of Roguelike game design, which the developer talks about during his GDC post-mortem.
@Jamaleum
7 жыл бұрын
>Mark Brown mentions Matthewmatosis. >Mind explodes
@Xener09
5 жыл бұрын
really guys, Zelda Ocarina of time, lock on, dodge rolls, and collision based damage with pre-set animations for attacks. Dark souls took its combat from many early RPG's on ps1 and n64
@nasirbarbee5940
5 жыл бұрын
Combat is different than zelda so much so that whatever comparison there is might be to small yo notice
@nasirbarbee5940
5 жыл бұрын
@James Chris "you shoot you reload you aim down sights" so that makes every fps the same
@OutOfTheShadows1
5 жыл бұрын
...anyone remember kings field? it was a dark fantasy action rpg dungeon crawler with stamina management based combat made by fromsoft... before oot. the whole souls thing is nothing new. also rpgs existed on game consoles since the 70s so I'd hardly call 90s rpgs early
@Robert399
4 жыл бұрын
@@nasirbarbee5940 ... and FPS *is* a genre. I'm certainly not saying Dark Souls is derivative but I don't think it deserves to codify a new genre. If we got a sudden rush of Super Mario Odyssey clones, they'd still just be 3D platformers. That doesn't mean Super Mario Odyssey suddenly needs its own genre.
@nasirbarbee5940
4 жыл бұрын
@@Robert399 okay if thats the case then why not just call metroid and castlevania reguler platformers ? Because those people who are looking for those types of games need to specify what it is they are looking for. Thats why metroidvania exist. Mario odyssey and crash bandicoot both 3d platformers. But both are different. Darksouls deserves its own genre because it has spawned a bunch of games made specifically for a type of player. You dont get the same thing from zelda twilight princess as you get from. Surge 2 or nioh the fact that we are even having this debate is foolish in my opinion.
@SuperUnunquadium
7 жыл бұрын
The thing about these "souls-like" games is that they are wholly uninspired. They saw Dark Souls and said "what if we did that but pretended it was our idea". At its core Monster Hunter and Dark Souls has similar combat. Scope the enemy out, understand it's move set, and beat the shit out of it until it dies. But they are completely different games. That's because they're each their own franchise. It doesn't matter who did it first. What matters is the game itself. Souls of the Fallen and Fallen 2: Sci Fi Boogaloo look intensely slow and boring. They also seem to be designed with difficulty in mind. Like the devs looked at DS and thought: "the fans like hard games, so let's make it really hard". DS is not a difficult game, it's meant to be challenging. Because it has its own set of mechanics and does its own thing. If you think DS and Bloodborne is hard, look at the people who can beat those games at SL1. Challenging =|= difficult. Dark Souls is like a big fish in an ocean of games, whereas the uninspired souls-likes are lampreys pretending to be a big fish. Salt and Sanctuary is its own game, Monster Hunter is its own game, even Bloodborne is its own game within the scope of Miyazaki's work. Games like the Fallen twins are not. They're devs ticking boxes.
@OreallyR17
7 жыл бұрын
On the flip side, Monster Hunter annoyed the shit out of me because it kept tricking my mind into thinking I was playing Dark Souls. I got these dual wielding blades, but I can't change the direction of each swing. Enemy is about to blast my location with a fireball, better sprint out of there... why is my character standing still and throwing their arms into the air to embrace death? Why did they make the move fast button out of combat into the hold still button in combat?! Why do I have over 100 kills on this fucking Pink Rathian and not a single Ruby? The rarest item in Dark Souls can be obtained by sane people.
@OreallyR17
7 жыл бұрын
Is it marketed towards kids? It's definitely kid friendly, but nothing about it says "Kid Audiance" to me.
@playersperspective231
6 жыл бұрын
Fucking thank you for this.
@Graham1312
5 жыл бұрын
For me, as a more casual gamer, DS is a frickin' hard game and really frustrating at times, because it demands nothing less than perfection, since you do not have any space to make mistakes. I for example never came past the capra demon. I definetly know how to kill it, but I am just not able to, since I have to pull out the same tactic more than just a couple of times perfectly, whereas it just need one hit, or maybe two to kill me (and don't forget it's utterly annoying sidekick monsterdogs).
@shutupjade0420
7 жыл бұрын
I went into this video with the thought "Yes, because there's a market" But when I really saw what you were saying, I was surprised to be confronted with how narrow minded my initial thought was. I was simplifying the argument that you were actually making in my own head. It amazes me now to look back at the games you mentioned that I have played and realize just how uninspired they actually felt playing them, never able to connect as to why this was. Thanks for this video, it's got my mind's gears turning now as to what this argument and topic is really all about.
@Red-wb2ey
5 жыл бұрын
This is a 14 minute video that literally disses every single video game that has ever been made, and is 100% right.
@erybotond
7 жыл бұрын
Man, Demon's Souls is still so underrated. Most people haven't played it because it's only on PS3. We need a PS4 remaster!
@danielschroedinger2090
4 жыл бұрын
OR just release it for PC so it doesn't become obsolete when the next console gen without backwards compatibility comes along. Then for bonus points keep it mod friendly, so dedicated fans can keep brushing up the graphics and have it stay palatable. Hate it when a game is held hostage to force people into buying hardware. Especially annoying when the game is then basically erased once said hardware becomes unobtainable. Certainly don't want encourage this scam of selling you the same game over and over for full price, just for the privilege of keeping it.
@IskandarTheWack
4 жыл бұрын
It's likely getting a ps5 remake, at least that's the rumor.
@IskandarTheWack
4 жыл бұрын
@@danielschroedinger2090 You mean the people who made a game don't have the right to do with it what they want? HOW DARE THEY. Keep port begging I guess.
@danielschroedinger2090
4 жыл бұрын
@@IskandarTheWack Who said anything about rights? You can acknowledge peoples right to something while also disagreeing with it. Also why wouldn't the devs want their game on as many plattforms as possible? This is not about what the people who made the game want to do, but about what the people, who own the publishing rights want.
@danielschroedinger2090
4 жыл бұрын
@@IskandarTheWack Also no need to beg for a port. At this point you can just emulate it.
@GamerRoman
7 жыл бұрын
This video is kinda like Dark souls... I might even call it *_SOULS-LIKE_*
@Dr.Longest
7 жыл бұрын
GamerRoman, more like a soulslike metroidvania rougelight vid
@masondickerson9466
7 жыл бұрын
booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
@williamchambers1579
7 жыл бұрын
nailed it
@Jona69
7 жыл бұрын
Souls-lite
@floppydisk4500
7 жыл бұрын
GamerRoman the tl;dr
@jacobfeinland7878
5 жыл бұрын
Suggesting a new name for the genre would have great impact because of your influence. Great video. Well-developed points, and very informative
@forcefield6973
7 жыл бұрын
The problem with this reasoning is that if, for example, we apply the genre concept of "Immersive sims" to Zelda or Hitman, it starts to bend and blurry the line that separates different genres. Is it Zelda that is really an immersive sim or is it Thief that is actually an action-adventure game that focus a lot on stealth? Hell, how do you even define where each one of those catchy genre names apply and where they don't? Seriously, how do we do this process? Of course, you could say that "everybody" knows what an RPG is, or what a text adventure or a FPS is. But how do everybody knows? Of course, comparing a bunch of games and noticing similarities, and then giving a random name. The games that stand out usually are the most referenced and the ones that guide the invention of the genre. But that definition is always limited. If I play Dungeons of Dredmor on non-permadeath mode it stops being a roguelike? Really? Either those definitions are too strict or too broad. Even if they're not based on only one game, they are ALWAYS indicating standards that serve more like formulas than guidelines. And what determines if a game can really be unique is not if a "genre" is too narrow or not. It is HOW it puts together its ideas. A very genre-defying game, like Bwyond Good an Evil, can be memorable. But a game that respects all 123948 rules of the Berlin interpretation - Ultima Ratio Regum, for example - can also be extremely unique. TLDR: what makes a game blend like most soulslikes, minecraft clones or newer immersive sims is not if their supposed "genre" is open enough, but HOW they use (or dont use) the genre guidelines.
@destroiz
7 жыл бұрын
I would say that the ''Action-warm ups'' ''animation priority'' and ''stamina managment'' as a staple of Monster hunter more than dark souls.
@TOnySchAnneL9000
4 жыл бұрын
Dark Souls is Hunter-like.
@ahnmichael1484
5 жыл бұрын
You make easily the most illustrative and insightful videos I have ever found on KZitem. Every few months, I come back to one of your videos and am yet again astonished at all you are able to communicate so sharply, and without the confused noise I hear in most other discussion. You seem to always find what really matters; thank you for sharing it with us.
@TheWickedWeenie
7 жыл бұрын
x-like is a terrible way to name a genre.
@LimeyLassen
6 жыл бұрын
We should use x-esque instead, it's fancier
@aFewBitsShort
5 жыл бұрын
Doom Clone
@youstolemyhandleyoutwat
5 жыл бұрын
@divide two nah, "-spirit" is too edgy. "Souls-spirit" Nah, if that were our other option, "-like" is waaaaayyyyy better. No need for fancy explanations, a game that is like X.
@OfficialCrowMauler
5 жыл бұрын
TheWickedWeenie So I assume you have a problem with the term “Metroidvania” too?
@SuperSecretAgentNein
5 жыл бұрын
Sometimes that’s the only way it can work. Luckily for Doom the genre it popularized could be defined easily and quickly. First person, and shooter. How do you quickly explain a game like rogue? How do you quickly explain a game like Dark Souls? DS isn’t JUST an action rpg, when someone says X game is an action rpg it’s a real crapshoot on if it will be anything like Souls. Alternately, we could break down what makes a Souls game, a combat focused action rpg with minimal overt storytelling and a...I don’t even know how to succinctly explain the leave your currency/experience at the place where you died and then have to retrieve it or lose it system. Hey how bout we just call it a soulslike? It’s inelegant but it gets the point across and that’s really the whole point of genre isn’t it?
@Contenterful
7 жыл бұрын
Probably off-topic, but why do I get the feeling that THIS will be the theme for true upcoming Game Jam?
@notlunaticdancer4393
7 жыл бұрын
Some obscure genre to think around would be cool, but i'd rather be more surprised.
@andrewesposito5338
7 жыл бұрын
probably because you're just learning about the genre now.
@jeffreyjohnson3687
7 жыл бұрын
There's a few directions this could go, but I STRONGLY got that sense too.
@WizardofWestmarch
7 жыл бұрын
I'd hope he would do an older video instead of one that went up after the announcement, personally.
@calebrobertson5041
7 жыл бұрын
Contenterful Either this or downwell
@h4724-q6j
6 жыл бұрын
Damn, you _really_ like Spelunky, don't you?
@GMTK
6 жыл бұрын
Top 10 games of all time baby
@quackquack8775
5 жыл бұрын
It is really good tho
@gasternecross
4 жыл бұрын
@@quackquack8775 when will it come to switch
@quackquack8775
4 жыл бұрын
@@gasternecross I'm not sure, but there is a Spelunky 2 coming out supposedly in 2020-21 so I'm hyped as hell. Should come to ps, Xbox, Pc and switch
@DamageMaximo
3 жыл бұрын
I don't know how, it's such a horrible game lol
@axollyon
7 жыл бұрын
The only real staple a soulslike game needs to have is the plunging attack, the most reliable move in the game. Doesn't count if it doesn't.
@failtolawl
6 жыл бұрын
"Renamed versions of 'estus flask'" **shows a health potion**
@djlee_exe
4 жыл бұрын
I think you can also argue that some genres can *stop* being genres and become even more broad. Like, nowadays if you just say of a game “it’s an FPS” that doesn’t really give that much information, because there are SO many different ways developers have used first person shooter mechanics. Like yeah Doom Eternal is kind of a “true” FPS, but something like Overwatch is also an FPS. In that way, FPS is almost more of a medium than a genre.
@felipedaiber2991
3 жыл бұрын
Well in other arts genre can also define an extremely loose thing qnd things like sub genre exist, like Rock just means that it has a guitar or abstract art refers to everything that is not photorealistic wich is most paintings ans sculptures at this point
@zangzag
7 жыл бұрын
One thing to consider though is that roguelike is not really its own genre; rather, it is a specific subgenre of dungeon crawlers. I don't think it's really fair to say that naming a genre "roguelike" stifles the development of the genre when it is already used to refer to a specific type of dungeon crawlers.
@VikingSchism
6 жыл бұрын
Also, games like Rogue Legacy aren't truly Roguelikes, they are not like Rogue. Those games take some mechanics from Rogue, like permadeath and random generation. That isn't enough for Roguelike to be a useful descriptor, if we include those games
@lancearmada
7 жыл бұрын
Action warm ups, animation priority, and stamina management are all present in monster hunter. I would be fine calling monster hunter a soulslike game in terms of combat, but the game is very unique in other aspects...
@kuuler94
6 жыл бұрын
If were comparing combat then it would be more accurate to say that soulslike games have monster hunter like combat, since it came out first.
@SuperSecretAgentNein
5 жыл бұрын
Marvo Langeberg doesn’t really matter what came out first, it’s what popularized the genre. They didn’t call them Wolfenstein Clones, they called them Doom Clones.
@dantefromdevilmaycry9857
5 жыл бұрын
So if MH was the one that popularized them it would be "MH-like"? that doesn't sound right, I think the "Hunter Genre" should be there.. but then again that would be more of a simulator. :/
@thelastgogeta
5 жыл бұрын
@@SuperSecretAgentNein MH did actually popularise those elements and had a lot of rivals which released in Japan and the West prior to Souls. It isn't like MH World is the first million selling game with those parts: www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/finance/million.html
@watsonwrote
5 жыл бұрын
100% agree I actually struggle to play souls games because I'm so used to MH combat I keep defaulting to MH controls haha
@niemand7811
Жыл бұрын
Now I remember Azura Dreams, a Playstation game. Was a rpg where every time you entered the tower you started at level 1 and had to work your way up as far as you could, with level layouts ever changing with each new entry,random enemy placement, you starting at level one as well each time, only keeping your monsters/pets and equipment. And even your equipment could erode and be destroyed. But nobody - really nobody called that a rogue-like. We all understood well what a rpg is.
@Spills51
5 жыл бұрын
While a huge part of DS1 success was its combat mechanics and importance of DYING lol I feel like some Devs think if they nail that type of combat mechanics etc then it is a souls like...DS1 was a game changer partly because of that along with the LORE and the exploration. Surge is not a souls like. Neither are honestly all the others. The combat is close and everything else is either badly done or missed completely. Too many downplay the importance of those other factors and the reason DS1 still has and will pretty much always have a dedicated playerbase. You can play through the game ten times and without a doubt %100 there will still be secrets and tidbits that you have never seen before. I ran it the other day and there was more then enough players online for invasions and summoning. 7 years later.
@MasterofLaziness
5 жыл бұрын
Didn't Dark Souls just copy Monster Hunter's combat and alter the death mechanic? They didn't "invent" a genre, they just further popularized it. So let's say we make this genre defined as you say, and prioritize "Action warmups", "Animation Priority", and "Stamina management". We still have Monster Hunter, which predated Dark Souls by 7.5 years, and Demon's Souls by 5. And yet no one seems to care for the similarity. Fans of the Souls series even scoff at the idea that their game wasn't the first to do what it does. Monster Hunter's focus on boss fights cannot be enough to prevent these series from being in similar genres, otherwise we run too narrow of a conception of the genre. Also "never progressing past step 2" is what the Metroidvania subgenre is when regarding platformers. All you have to do is interconnect the map on a platformer, add in some ridiculously hidden secrets, and encourage the player to backtrack while fighting respawning enemies. Hollow Knight is a true Metroidvania. Dark Souls could even be argued to be a 3D Metroidvania. Mostly I'm tired of everyone comparing things to Dark Souls. Difficulty is not a brand, and everything in Dark Souls, from the abstract lore, to the combat, to the pride it is known for eliciting when you overcome a difficult boss, has all been done before.
@arijjavaid1213
5 жыл бұрын
MasterofLaziness Dark souls is a natural sucessor of demon souls and demon souls is a natural successor of kingsfield. A series that existed before Monster Hunter.
@greatshinobi-owl3120
4 жыл бұрын
MasterofLaziness Monster hunter copied the souls-borne series
@dustintheslayer
3 жыл бұрын
@@greatshinobi-owl3120 no.
@cjpgconman
4 жыл бұрын
Dude, just discovered your channel. I love a few channels for their reviews and analysis, but you standout for truly taking mechanics or trends of the game market and analyzing them. All that to say great videos man!
@manzanito3652
7 жыл бұрын
"We judge new games by their ability to emulate the original", that's very true. That happened too with mighty N9 and Yooka laylee,I find both them pretty mediocre ,but people love it because "it's like (insert game here)". Same with dark souls and lords of fallen. The main difference between them is that the first is a good game and other is boring and too frustrating.
@bigjoe2438
7 жыл бұрын
Manzanito :3 No one likes mighty no. 9
@manzanito3652
7 жыл бұрын
Big Joe Sure?
@mcFreaki
7 жыл бұрын
pretty sure some people LIKED mighty number 9, but i don't think anyone LOVED it, you know?
@thatssomegoodpie
7 жыл бұрын
Dark Souls itself is already a combination of many video game genres so can you really call soulslike a "new" genre. It's more about devs that are ripping off the formula of dark souls like back in the CoD4 days with call of duty and military shooters.
@GMTK
7 жыл бұрын
COD 4 is a good example of a game where there were loads of copies but it never actually led to a new genre.
@thatssomegoodpie
7 жыл бұрын
Well I think the impact of Dark Souls is similar to that of CoD4. It's a game that borrows many elements from previous genres/games and iterates on them rather than revolutionize them. When Doom released it did something that no game ever did before with that first person perspective. Of course there were plenty of game which tried and first person perspective before Doom but none of them nailed it in quite the way Doom did with its stellar graphics and smooth gameplay, the fps perspective was not viable before Doom. Dark Souls borrows most of the gameplay from other games, the combat is a more advanced Z-targetting system from Ocarina of time, the world is designed in a MetroidVania like way with its interconnectedness, and leveling up and stuff is a core element from any RPG. I love me some Dark Souls but a new genre it ain't, the only thing it really added rather than iterate on was the unique storytelling. PS: Great video, I love your content.
@hisholiness4537
7 жыл бұрын
+Thatssomegoodpie Animations Souls has a lot of very innovative and new aspects that have not been seen before. It's just that its clones are not taking inspiration from them, instead they are ripping off (as you said) the things that Souls itself has borrowed from older games.
@kionashi
7 жыл бұрын
sometimes a new genre can be made by merging other genres, like RPG and ARPG or CRPG
@thatssomegoodpie
7 жыл бұрын
Then it is more a Sub-genre rather than a full new genre.
@burgershrimp8857
4 жыл бұрын
I don't think Dark Souls' combat aspect you've mentioned should be genre's definition (Action Warm-up / Animation Priority / Stamina Management) because those are not inspired specifically by Dark Souls but more by Monster Hunter series, which is older, and inspired Souls series' combat. Soulslike should be defined by 1 gameplay characteristic: progressing between save points through pre-designed levels.
@talosgak1236
4 жыл бұрын
Doesn’t that describe almost every game?
@plumune1705
4 жыл бұрын
god of war is a soulslike
@ew275x
7 жыл бұрын
I have to disagree. I think people want more of the same and don't want a formula shaken up, especially with niche genres/IPs. There is a danger that an entire design philosophy of games can disappear if the formula is shaken up too much. Even in niche genres like 2D fighting games an expert can tell you that SNK, Capcom, and Arc System Works have different approaches to the genre. Problem is if Capcom changes stuff too much for Street Fighter 6, the fans can't just jump into King of Fighters or Guilty Gear. I feel bad for the people still stuck on old games because no company is willing or interested in making a game that captures the formula they really like. I think of the Mario fans who have wanted a sequel to 64 for ages who were dissatisfied with Sunshine and didn't care for Galaxy and just now they are getting Odyssey. Now don't get me wrong Nintendo can and should make different types of 3D Mario games, but they should've provided something for the Super Mario 64 crowd besides a remake.
@Skeletroy
7 жыл бұрын
11:05 If those elements are the basis of the genre, does that make Punch-Out the first Souls-like? Or is Dark Souls a Punch-Out-like?
@LuckeeStrikee
7 жыл бұрын
No, because those elements encompass just a single aspect of Souls games. Otherwise any run 'n gun that came before Metroid would be definable as metroidvania.
@arstotzkanatthedmz4486
7 жыл бұрын
Skeletroy Exactly that's why his ideas are so stupid. He has the same philosophy the people who made nioh and the surge had. The combat and game mechanics aren't what made dark souls special.
@Skeletroy
7 жыл бұрын
Luckee Strikee But that single aspect is the focus of the potential genre...like how (in my opinion) the core aspect of Metroidvania games isn't running and gunning, but backtracking to previously inaccessible areas to fill out that map. I'd argue that you could make a Metroidvania style game that doesn't have any platforming, as long as the exploration factor is there. Maybe Dark Souls, with its expanded ideas and mechanics, would then be considered a Punch-Out-light?
@LuckeeStrikee
7 жыл бұрын
Souls are Punch-Out-like as much as they are Diablo-like, or Metroidvania, or ICO-like even (as admitted by Miyazaki himself). They clearly brought various elements from past titles, but they reinterpreted them uniquely and elegantly enough to be be seen as, well, something new. Even taking combat alone, for example: Punch Out doesn't contemplate spacial awareness, but it's one of the key aspects to Souls games combat.
@CynicalZielony
7 жыл бұрын
It's the case where where Civilization can be considered a roguelike due to it sharing a few major mechanics with Rogue. However, Civ isn't a dungeon crawler, you don't play as one character, turns aren't based on time units, etc. It's more so how the mechanics come operate, are utilized, and presented rather than just being there.
@vanillaolaf9398
6 жыл бұрын
Great video! I’m rewatching it because I found out that Dead Cells describes itself as a Rogue-lite Metroidvania inspired action-platformer with Souls-lite combat
@XSlimBoy
7 жыл бұрын
And every new Hero or Arena Shooter is "Overwatch-Like". Even if they play and feel different.
@manzanito3652
7 жыл бұрын
It looks that dark souls and overwatch were the only games wich were played by those people. So that's why everything must be like them
@kotodori_
7 жыл бұрын
XSlim you misspelled "Quake"
@knightartorias9137
7 жыл бұрын
XSlim tf2
@Stock090
7 жыл бұрын
Quake isnt based on classes though. The game that added classes to the shooting was the first team fortress. If anything, hero arena shooters are TF2 clones.
@NinthElite
7 жыл бұрын
team fortress was originally a quake mod
@Bedinsis
7 жыл бұрын
Another genre which has been named from a game, yet this fact is not as often acknowledged, is the adventure game genre. People tend to forget that it was named for the 1976 Colossal Cave Adventure(also known as simply "Adventure").
@hisholiness4537
7 жыл бұрын
wow TIL
@richie4956
7 жыл бұрын
Valuable game trivia
@isaacargesmith8217
7 жыл бұрын
To be fair though adventure is a PRETTY vague word that could mean anything and I don't htink most people even know that's why the genre has its name. With something like rouge or souls they don't really say as much about their genres just by their names so people are more likely to look up and know the origins of these words out of curiosity. WIth adventure games people automatically hear "adventure" and assume they are games with long winding narratives that go to many different places and are meant to be, well, and adventure of some kind. Things like rouge likes both have "like" in their name which implies they're similar to something and rouge doesn't really reflect the ideas of perma death and such like how adventure does with wind and fantastical narratives.
@adams3627
3 жыл бұрын
PROCEDURAL DEATH LABYRINTH is such a good name I'm surprised it isn't already being published by Devolver Digital.
@snowmcsnow4732
4 жыл бұрын
I recall playing Dark Souls for the first time and saying to myself, "This is a lot like a Survival Horror game" and me and my friends dubbed it as Namco/Bandai's response to "Resident Evil".
@vadarman9906
2 жыл бұрын
I like how similar metroidvanias are, honestly. It's a set of mechanics I really like, and sometimes I just want to play something similar with different aethetics or slightly different mechanics
@DrunkenKnuckle
6 жыл бұрын
In school, we were tasked with naming different "genres" of games, the instructor wrote down all our responses. for example, he then asked, ok in first person games what kind of weapons do you have. we rattled everything we could think of and again he wrote em down. when we had the entire board covered with everything we could thing of he said, Alright now for your guys game designs you cant have anything we wrote up on the board. It really made you realize how creating games based on a genre traps you into conventions already explored. This video reminded me of that same lesson. when you try to make a game that adhere's to an assumed genre you stifle a lot of creativity right out the gate.
@mcdrums87
7 жыл бұрын
Just to highlight the problem with using games to define genre: I disagree with the definition of "Castlevania that plays like Metroid" for "Metroidvania". For me, the genre name mashes the titles together because they are both necessary to define the genre. They share common elements (specifically an interconnected world where access is limited by ability set), but Castlevania diverts far enough that it cannot be confused with Metroid. In fact, Castlevania's added RPG elements pushes different strategies on the player (while Samus generally just improves on her core shooter abilities). Defining genre in video games is interesting, though. I think we use game titles as shorthand for genre because we don't quite have the language to define game mechanics, and that means that we can't as easily define the specific mechanics that make up a genre.
@SerenGetter
7 жыл бұрын
Understand Metroidvania came to categorize Castlevania itself within its own genre (Such as ClassicVania / MetroidVanias) Hence why most Metroidvanias often lack anything resembling SoTN, because most are aping Super Metroid by design, the Vania moniker seems to only exist because it sounds alot better than "Metroid-like", and because Castlevania is popular enough for people to recognize when used in conjunction with Metroid.
@CycloneFox
7 жыл бұрын
Well said.
@FranzFerdinand76
6 жыл бұрын
The essence of the Souls-like gameplay experience is this - Every action requires thought, and since the pace doesn't require twitchy play, you get just enough time to think about every action. The end result is that you get the feeling of a turn based RPG, but executed in real time.
@lidge1994
Жыл бұрын
I think I remember it being referred to as "intentional combat" which only covers the combat, so not a good name for a genre. Hmm..Intentional deathloop adventure genre? Deathloop meaning dying isn't a reset of anything other than position, as enemies, loot and everything else stays as it was.
@scylla4342
Жыл бұрын
Many other games required thinking as well heck they even need you to think deeper lmfao
@arijitmazumdar5740
6 жыл бұрын
Love this video but I have one small quibble. When you talked about immersive sims you mentioned how theif was considered a failure and is often forgotten. I don't think this is entirely true since it was primarily a stealth game/ sandbox that had a large impact on the stealth genre on its own.
@Yamin4Studios
7 жыл бұрын
This has really got me thinking, thank you!!
@Yamin4Studios
7 жыл бұрын
laughingman123 patreon supporter
@ojakoo288
7 жыл бұрын
Yamin4-Studios PATREON SUPPORTER BTW
@ckillgore
3 жыл бұрын
It's funny to me that dark souls is considered the first in it's genre, when it used lots of existing conventions of games in the action RPG genre. I think it's helpful to compare dark souls to a game like Kingdom Hearts and see what they have in common. The save-point system in KH is actually extremely similar to bonfires. The MP system for casting isn't the same as attunement slots, but is very similar to FP in DS3. Potions are very similar to how life gems function is DS2. Items are scattered around a level, and are meant to draw they player's eye and guide them in the right direction. You have multiple branching paths you can go down (in KH this is world selection), but the difficulty of one path might encourage you to try a different path first. The big difference between the two is how the combat is handled, how experience is gained, and how a character is built. The biggest similarity is how an individual level is built, and how level design is used to naturally guide a player in a particular way. They both also have very weird plots that are convoluted, and a player might not understand the deeper lore of the game the first time through. In addition to that, there is a simpler surface version of the plot that is pretty easy to get. Another thing they both do is use large beast type boss fights in addition to person type boss fights with similar abilities to the player. There is quite a bit of overlap between the boss designs, and KH1 even has a dodge roll! They are remarkably similar in a lot of regards, but kingdom hearts is rarely talked about in the same breath as dark souls. This might be because of the tonal disparity, or because kingdom hearts suffered from a lot of bad design choices that were a product of it's time, and dark souls players liked dark souls specifically because a lot of these mistakes were absent. I think the most important thing Fromsoft brings to the table when it comes to action JRPGs is level design. This really clicked for me when I recently did a blind play through of bloodborne, as I could easily navigate it's world just by being familiar with the conventions of From's level design.
@ZX3000GT1
2 жыл бұрын
Souls-like I think is a bad name for a genre, considering how vague the requirement to be a souls-like is. I mean what would be considered a souls-like? Rolling? Stamina? General gameplay loop of bonfire -> small enemies -> bonfire -> boss -> repeat? RPG elements with souls? Level Design? Difficulty? Soulsborne doesn't deserve its own genre, because in truth it's just an ARPG, like any other ARPGs out there. It's not much different that any ARPGs out there. Probably the most unique part of a souls game would be the levelling system, since you can tune your characters towards a specific build (magic oriented, melee oriented, etc), but even then I'm absolutely sure there are some old CRPGs which has this levelling system.
@notproductiveproductions3504
Жыл бұрын
@@ZX3000GT1it’s defined by turn based combat in real time action and limitation management on top of other limitations that make combos non existent
@LimeyLassen
6 жыл бұрын
Dead Cells: "What if we combined Dark Souls with Spelunky" And so the Roguevaniasoulslike was born
@DeeMulaah
4 жыл бұрын
Dark souls has nothing to do with Dead Cells....
@arielmatiauda5110
4 жыл бұрын
@@DeeMulaah you die and it resets, therefore is Dark Souls
@justuspickle
6 жыл бұрын
important aspects of Dark Souls: 1. deliberate, timing based combat 2. deliberate checkpoint system 3. XP is also currency 4. XP/currency lost upon death 5. lost XP/currency can be recovered if the player can avoid dying again 6. volatile resource management (stamina, estus, magic) 7. certain resources refreshed after dying/ activating a checkpoint 8. checkpoints are a CLEAN SLATE, health, refreshing resources and enemies are all restored 9. oh, and it has to be an RPG i think the most important aspects would be the checkpoint system, loss and reclamation of currency and/or XP upon death, and the checkpoints as a clean slate system, with volatile resource management being more optional. the checkpoint and checkpoint refresh systems i think are the most important, but don't really describe the genre very well
@vordaq
7 жыл бұрын
The thing about Rogue-lite, is unlike Rogue-like, it's NOT a genre. It's applied to other genres in the same way that any sort of game can have rpg elements. Similarly, boiling "Souls-like" down to methodically managing your stamina would be applicable to other genres, and no longer be a genre by itself.
@CidGuerreiro1234
6 жыл бұрын
"Souls-like" also imply difficulty.
@Hew91
6 жыл бұрын
This would suggest that something cannot be part of multiple genres at once. For example Portal is both a puzzle game, and an FPS. Both "rogue-lite" and "rogue-like" are being used as genres. It is really just all around a debate of what "rogue-like" should entail.
@dragz888
6 жыл бұрын
Hew91 Portal is not an FPS.
@oniuserjh
6 жыл бұрын
so does "fighting" and "rts"
@potato673
7 жыл бұрын
I think there's value in iteration as well as innovation. Actually I think innovation is incredibly over valued but whatever. I really like Nioh and it's because, to me, it feels more like Dark Souls 3 than Dark Souls 3. There are many improvements to the formula like the combat mechanics and control scheme that Miyazaki hasn't figured out in all the time he's been making these games. And the level design is *chef hand kiss motion*. I think this applies to Prey as well. The devs never intended to innovate within the immersive sim genre. Their stated design goal was to make a spiritual successor to System Shock and Bioshock and I think they did a pretty good job. They certainly handled moral choice better than Bioshock does.
@69mickswagg
7 жыл бұрын
flesh sock I have to disagree. Miyazaki has perfected the combat. simple, but deep and complex. nioh was fun, but the combat felt more like wait for the enemy to stop, then attack. in soulsborne games, you have the added I frames in rolling, so that you can be in and around the action. dodging and rolling between hits instead of just standing off to the side waiting your turn. It's also great for PvP. nioh would not be PvP friendly. especially with all the game breaking magic. nioh tried to spice up the combat by adding more mechanics, but ended up with a much shallower finished product.
@potato673
7 жыл бұрын
69mickswagg "Simple but deep and complex" two of those words mean opposite things buddy. Nioh has I-frames so I don't know why you brought that up and with stance changing and ki pulsing Nioh encourages you to play much more aggressively than even bloodborne. If you just waited for the enemy to stop to attack that's your fault not the games.
@69mickswagg
7 жыл бұрын
flesh sock No, you just don't understand what I'm saying. It's simple as in there aren't a ton of mechanics, but what you can do with those mechanics are where the depth comes in. it's almost limitless the ways you can use what they give you to fight in interesting ways. nioh has more mechanics, but it always boils down to, wait until the bad guy is finished, then you attack them. Also, the enemy mechanics in soulsborne games and the enemy variety puts nioh to shame. But, this is just my opinion. I accept that you like Nioh better. And that's fine. there are literally tens of you out there. And I know you don't have to wait for them to attack first. But if they do get an attack out, it's almost always better to use your roll to just escape their area and wait for them to finish. In soulsborne games, you can dance around them as long as you have the skill to time your rolls, and do things like back stabs and parry.
@potato673
7 жыл бұрын
69mickswagg It would be cool if you knew how to read. I said 2 of the words. Simple and conplex mean opposite things. I never denied that souls combat has depth. I also never said I like Nioh more. I think Nioh is iterating and improving on the souls formula when the actual souls games aren't. That doesn't stop Dark Souls being one of my favourite games. The cognitive dissonance required to hold the opinion you have is prettt impressive though. You can dance around enemies in Nioh. You can parry in Nioh and you can back stab. And the safest strategy to not die in Dark Souls is to wait for the enemies to stop attacking and attack them. I can agree with the enemy variety point, although saying it puts Nioh to shame is a bit over the top.
@lauramarx8098
7 жыл бұрын
Yeah, exactly. I like to think of roguelikes and metroidvanias as videogames equivalent to sonnets or haikus - a very strict form which allows a broad range of possible expressions. Many videos are dedicated to the problem of stangation and design cliches, few to the pressure to innovate. So many ideas are left underdeveloped because they had already been done in a basic way by another game.
@eelvis1674
Жыл бұрын
I wouldnt worry too much about the canonisation thing, at least in rogues case. I would be willing to bet that upwards of 80 or 90% of gamers have never heard of Rouge and just take the name at face value.
@duchi882
5 жыл бұрын
*_"It's just like Dark Souls!"_*
@13Kr4zYAzN13
2 жыл бұрын
It's crazy how to see just how much the genre has started to expand post Elden Ring And I'm all for it lol
@_Tzer
Жыл бұрын
shadow tower abysslike
@no_nameyouknow
4 жыл бұрын
Genres are just things people use to describe stuff. People who make games that are "souls-like" are not specifically aiming to make a game in a genre, they just want to make the game they want to make (most of the time). Genre names happen when there are enough distinct elements to a game or games that make it efficient to use a genre name rather than describe the game in detail.
@JHYW
7 жыл бұрын
Tiny typo in your Dark Souls ingredients list - "asynchronous mutiplayer" @ 11:00.
@GMTK
7 жыл бұрын
Bummer, cheers
@misterdedlift4879
2 жыл бұрын
I need a Soulslike genre so I instantly know which games are just out to waste my time with esoteric difficulty, corpse runs and respawning everything, and not bother with them.
@durkle1120
3 жыл бұрын
I mean i feel like people who play dark souls just want more dark souls in their life. because its so fucking good
@leonelc29
7 жыл бұрын
"Soulslike: Action warm-ups, Animation Priority, Stamina Management" Monster Hunter? Also, i'd say the corpse running (and savepoint reset world)is also an important part of these soulslike, but then i guess it would better up to the developer to set whether it's important or not. Also also, i'd recommend anyone interested to go watch Totalbiscuit's definition of rogue-like and rogue-lite.
@dixego
7 жыл бұрын
What I like about this video is that it directly contradicts TotalBiscuit's approach to genres. To him, genres are tools for the consumer to synthesize a game's characteristics in as few words as possible. Thus, he wishes for genres to be as specific as possible so as to make it possible for a consumer to decide whether they're interested in a game just by knowing which genre it is. Mark takes the opposite approach. He believes over-specification of the characteristics of a genre can lead to developers seeking to replicate the spirit of games in that genre solely through replication of the genre's features, potentially stifling innovation. Personally I like Mark's approach the most.
@СлоГорький
7 жыл бұрын
Also known as the ExtraCredits approach, that boils down to: "Let anything be Anything! Yay!" As in: the creators should be allowed to call their games anything they want, and it's up to the consumer to take the headache of figuring stuff out. I am not okay with that because for game developers figuring stuff out about games is their actual JOB, and consumers are just some people with a little hard earned money to spend.
@AlexAegisOfficial
5 жыл бұрын
I wouldn't call "rolling" a high value aspect. Bloodborne does not have rolling, but the dodge mechanic is the same, it's just a different animation and name. Sekiro does have sidestep too but the dodge mechanic is almost nonexistent (I'm talking about the dodge window where attacks goes right through you) because deflect is the main way of defense, but it's still there.
@airmond3383
7 жыл бұрын
Splatoon + Dark Souls = Splat Souls
@tamar7065
7 жыл бұрын
I'd play it
@brasten6536
7 жыл бұрын
But can you do it without the Horror, and keep the Splatoon brightness.
@SavageRodent
7 жыл бұрын
You know technically, Dark Souls is a 3D Metroidvania game. So I guess one would have to ask why a new term is being created from Dark Souls.
@1r0zz
7 жыл бұрын
because it's the most innovative 3d one?
@XemnasKH
5 жыл бұрын
Only DS1 could be considered a 3D Metroidvania. Demon's Souls has a hub and levels you warp to from there. DS2 has a couple different linear paths. DS3 is almost completely linear with a couple branching paths that are dead ends.
@zoundbiestudio4021
3 жыл бұрын
You sir, are bumping my creativity lots and LOTS and LOTS. Most helpful yt channel I´ve found on 2020
@gabrielcastejon7914
4 жыл бұрын
It drives me up the wall that if a game is even remotely similar to Dark Souls, people call it a Souls-like. Dark Souls is a 3D, 3rd-person, action, exploration, RPG. Unless the game has these elements plus the stamina management and slow-paced combat, it's not a Souls-like. And people that compare hard games to Dark Souls as if Dark Souls invented hard games. Jesus Christ have mercy
@rianmsin
4 жыл бұрын
Well people compare it if the combat style and story progression are similar
@felipedaiber2991
3 жыл бұрын
Under that logic if every genre should also be within the genres of its first game then Spelunky is not a roguelike (rogue wasnt a platformer) , GTA5 is not a first person shooter (Doom was mapbased not open world), fornite is not an online fps, Breath Of The Wild is not a game like zelda, etc
@Arkayjiya
5 жыл бұрын
I still call FPS "Doom-like" sometimes, I haven't gotten rid of the habit.
@ltcmdrtobyfox3969
3 жыл бұрын
My opinion for the main characteristics of a "souls-like- game: -Emphasis on combat -limited resources/resource management -'bonfires' which act as a checkpoint AND a mini hub for respite, upgrading, and refilling your health in addition to resetting enemies in game.
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