Do any of you think about Walter Camp as often as you think of the Roman Empire?
@caseysmith544
7 ай бұрын
Rugby now has one other version of the game besides the only used for 7 man world cup and that is a pre 7 man mainly pro 13 man Rugby was played though since first 1999 world cup of Rugby 7, a 15 man game is in USA dominating said game in the newly formed MLR. Even at NCAA and NIA levels 15 man version of Rugby Union is played as well as since 2010 a 7 man Version due to 7 man world cup gaining popularity is and was late for 2016 Olympics 7 man was announced in 2009 due to pro players. Unlike USA or Canadian Football, Rugby has Women's and Men's game and in MLR same teams are trying to get a Pro Women's league going called MLR women's. I wish USA and Canada would create a pro Women's in same places as NFL and CFL as well as NCAA/NIA women's versions of sport as I believe interest is there more so then WNBA or PSA or Pro Softball League. Rugby has had women play since after WWII mainly rec or NCAA/NIA but a Pro level in USA/Canada has been forming.
@mikebronicki8264
7 ай бұрын
Walter Camp laid the foundation for American football, but if he had had his way we would not have the game we love. Football without the forward pass is not football.
@dug5426
7 ай бұрын
No one on Earth can beat these videos and these topics Youre the best Sir Keep up the good work
@johndonohoe3778
7 ай бұрын
I find it strange how Rugby morphed into our football. Australian rules the same. That’s why I enjoy your videos, making sense of it all,
@ProtectTheSecond
7 ай бұрын
Love these deep dives! Keep it up sir, love your videos
@CollegeFootballHistory
7 ай бұрын
Thank you!
@pjmlegrande
7 ай бұрын
IMO, modern football began with the Notre Dame-Army game in 1913, when the forward pass roughly in the form used today was employed to great effect by ND.
@scottdebrestian9875
7 ай бұрын
He has a video about that!
@FalseStartFootball911
26 күн бұрын
You really improved on all aspects of your content creation 🎉
@collegefootballhistorian2078
7 ай бұрын
In a world were we call a lot of people the father of whatever, Walter Camp is truly the father of football. I'm actually working on a video about the coaching tree of walter camp. Essentially the caoching tree that started all other coaching trees. I'm used to just uploading games so it's a bit out of my comfort zone which will be good.
@K2mtp
7 ай бұрын
That would be interesting.
@jimboshrump
7 ай бұрын
Where* make sure you spell correctly
@timeouthumanity2067
7 ай бұрын
I love these videos man
@Redneckthinker
7 ай бұрын
OK, I will agree with the title, but I also consider him and Stagg as the two most corrupt individuals at the time. He fought for rules that would allow players to actually stay alive and was well known for his using funds from the students of Yale for personal purposes. He deserves respect to a degree, but also a realization he wanted to maintain control at high costs for the game.
@Redneckthinker
7 ай бұрын
Also, the rules committee that made the changes was not the committee that Camp ruled with an iron fist. It was a combination of his committee and one meant to destroy his empire.
@goodmaro
7 ай бұрын
@@RedneckthinkerWhat's the evidence that he ruled it with an iron fist?
@JayTemple
7 ай бұрын
4:14 That also explains why soccer hasn't caught on as a spectator sport in the U.S. the way football, baseball, basketball and hockey have.
@goodmaro
7 ай бұрын
I don't get it.
@jamesgibbs2809
15 күн бұрын
This is a great series. One point of detail, American Football is certainly distinct from Rugby Union in terms of the concept of possession but I'd argue the same isn't quite true for Rugby League, at least not in its modern form. In both sports teams gain possession and then have a limited number of attempts to achieve a specified goal in terms of advancing the ball before then having to turn over possession if they fail. Obviously the absence of forward passing in League is a massive difference, and the sports don't really much resemble one another, but the concept of possession is massively important to Rugby League.
@vlaekershner7305
7 ай бұрын
If the father of American football hated the forward pass, is Woody Hayes the son?
@44032
5 ай бұрын
Did Camp ever directly address the deaths in football at the time? His insistence that the gam remain 'manly seems flint-hearted to modern ears.
@seymourbutts4654
7 ай бұрын
How many traditionalists was for the forward pass ?
@goodmaro
7 ай бұрын
"In 1878 he proposes...." Who and how did he propose this to? You're omitting all the context, making it seem like this was his personal idea. He was representing Yale to the IFA, and it was the Yale team that wanted 11 a side, because many of them had had experience playing the Eton field game, which was for 11s. Camp's role in this was strictly pro forma. Also, it's easy to imagine 30 on the field when you remember the field was much bigger then. When they made it 11s, they shrank the field proportionally.
@CollegeFootballHistory
7 ай бұрын
From Park Davis: This proposition was defeated, but was renewed each year thereafter with great vigor by Yale, until finally, in 1880, Walter Camp, Yale's delegate, succeeded in persuading the convention to adopt the Eton rule. ------- I have al weigh "context" against making a video of a decent length that people will want to watch. As you know, there's a LOT of back and forth in all these rules committees and deliberations, and to be honest, I think that would bore people to death. I'm still trying to figure out how to balance the depth of historical context with story telling/keeping people interested.
@goodmaro
7 ай бұрын
@@CollegeFootballHistoryHave you ever done committee work? If so, you know that the minutes usually don't reflect whose ideas were behind adopted motions. Occasionally, depending on the secretary's style, they'll include some statements for and/or against, but usually not who made them. Had someone else been Yale's representative, and later the committee secretary, probably that person would today be getting credit for the ideas had Parke Davis succeeded and befriended him.
@joemccullough4246
7 ай бұрын
The forward pass killed Ivy League football
@goodmaro
7 ай бұрын
The answer to the question is, "No." No more than Mark Twain's secretary deserves recognition as a great author.
@goodmaro
7 ай бұрын
What is the evidence that Camp came up with the 1880 change to the scrimmage rule? He was there, he recorded it, but why do people assume he was the one whose idea it was? Similarly, what makes you think he was the one who came up with downs in 1882? No contemporary source says these were Camp's ideas.
@CollegeFootballHistory
7 ай бұрын
What contemporary source says otherwise? Not trying to be snarky, just want to know what you're looking at.
@goodmaro
7 ай бұрын
@@CollegeFootballHistory They all report, dutifully, Camp's signature on the appropriate documents. But he was acting in his official capacity. I know of no sources that credit him with these ideas, not even himself. If it was a Yale proposal it was a collective stance from the Yale delegation, except later when he was secretary. In some cases Camp, wtiting later, credits an individual with an idea. I've never seen anything by him that says, "I was the originator of this," with regard to the rules. Yet I see all sorts of claims from various popular authors saying Camp did this or that. As far as I can tell, they just assume it. Was he just very modest, not wanting to take credit for his inventions? I know of nobody saying that about hi either. He gets credit like Hoyle, by default, because it's the only name people can easily attach to history.
@CollegeFootballHistory
6 ай бұрын
I guess I responded to this somewhere else as well. You put more stock in ideas than I do. I've written most of my life. Coming up with ideas is the easy part. The execution is what separates everybody! A And Camp did that - he traveled, he wrote, he had a lot of influence. So I think he's really worth of the title. That he kept that game from moving forward is a negative, but he still deserves the title.
@goodmaro
6 ай бұрын
@@CollegeFootballHistoryBut in this case the "execution" was just a matter of a committee vote. And actually neither the idea nor its execution was much of a creative thing in either the 1880 nor the 1882 example, as I'm sure it occurred to several people at the time. 11 a side was the desire of the entire Yale delegation, and the reason for that is known, so no reason to go into it. The only thing that might be said is that the IFA's adoption of it, with the concomitant shrinkage of the field, was their concession to Yale in return for adopting rugby, which Yale players had resisted in 1876. If you read histories of rugby football of that time, you'll see criticism of the method of restarting after a tackle, in that if the player with the ball still had so much as a finger on it, it was out of play, but the instant he removed it, it was back in play. You can easily see the problem this could lead to, with a player having the ball and claiming his release of it was being interfered with, when he didn't have to do it on any timetable. Allowing that side the exclusive right to play the ball reduced that problem, as the player could then put it on the ground unhindered with no opponent having the incentive to spoil the release. (It still let opponents try to shove you off balance to hamper your scrimmaging it, as long as they didn't prevent it entirely.) That difficulty was compounded by the prohibition on getting in front of the ball, and the requirement to kick it forward, which in Britain was surmounted by simply ignoring it. The RFU could've responded to the IFA's inquiry by writing back, "We don't actually enforce that," but they didn't answer. So the IFA's explicit legalization of backheeling was their solution. The 1882 adoption of a limited number of times to scrimmage the ball without moving it was a similar no-brainer that Camp similarly never credited to an individual. I'm sure there was discussion of "how many" and what evidence of moving the ball would be enough, and what they wound up with was a committee consensus. Then Parke Davis came along years later and said, "Camp did this".
@royveteto4134
7 ай бұрын
this is like saying abner doubleday invented baseball. there's no definitive evidence to say yes but they are the ones we have chosen to fill that role
@RegalEagle1979
7 ай бұрын
Agreed but it's well established that Camp is largely responsible for the game defining rules that separated American Gridiron Football from Euro Football and Rugby. Largely, he established the line of scrimmage and the system of downs. Those were massive shifts in the game that still define it to this day.
@goodmaro
7 ай бұрын
Well, at least we know Walter Camp was actually there when these changes were instituted, which we can disprove in the case of Doubleday.
@goodmaro
7 ай бұрын
@@RegalEagle1979 "Well established" by people taking the word of other people, from Parke Davis, who was far from a first-hand observer. As far as I can tell, it was Davis who inferred that his friend Camp had been too modest in not taking credit for changes to the rules. I don't think he had any objective basis for that inference. Many years ago I too believed Walter Camp was the father of the game, because other people said so. Until I did my own research and saw there was no basis for that idea.
@RegalEagle1979
7 ай бұрын
@@goodmaro People taking the word of other people from the same time period, though. If we're going to be that cynical, the vast majority of human written history is based on "taking the word of other people" - often people who lived hundreds of years after the recorded events took place. At least in this case, we're not so far removed from it that we can't at least verify that the people making and/or supporting the claims knew Camp personally.
@goodmaro
7 ай бұрын
@@RegalEagle1979 But you can't get closer than Walter Camp himself, who wrote plenty on the subject, and nowhere did he write something like, "I was the one who thought of this." And Parke Davis wasn't even old enough to have known Camp at the time these events were occurring.
@christopherTYJ
7 ай бұрын
I'll try to help grow your channel, but not you, personally. 😊 Love your videos!
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