5:45 Because routing 44 pins to mach one type of slot on both sides of a PCB would be a nightmare on such a small space. That is why, the logic thing is that the CF cards to be stacked with pin 1 in the same direction and so the connections could be made to both slots simpler trough 44 vias. That makes most sense to me. I saw the mistake when you turned around the modded adapter and inserted the second CF card in the mirrored way. It would make sense to use same type of the slot if is mounted on the same side of the pcb.
@Qyngali
Ай бұрын
Or moved the pads on the back up and mounted the second card up side down. Not exactly ideal but my coffee starved brain thinks it would work? Kind of a hassle to switch cards though. I am curious, instead of a cable with male connectors, couldn't you just use male to male pin adapters? Essentially converting a standard IDE cable to male.
@xenoxaos1
Ай бұрын
Routing the pins for the second slot to mirror them would be a hassle. And if the manufacturer buys slots in bulk getting the mirrored one is much easier for board routing. In try to imagine how to route them in my head and I'm not sure if it can be done on a 2 layer board. Much easier to connect with vias and a flipped slot. Especially if you have access to both types. And if you buy say 1k or each type of slot and end up selling more one socket adapters... You can just use the flipped version on the back.
@sebastian19745
Ай бұрын
@@Qyngali "instead of a cable with male connectors, couldn't you just use male to male pin adapters? Essentially converting a standard IDE cable to male." Ofcourse, why not? It was my first idea that came when he said that male IDE cables are hard to find. However, I never saw one.
@JamesTK
Ай бұрын
"mirrored slots more expensive" no. No. This is the right way to do it, and you don't have signal issues since the pads are straight through. Clever engineering
@curggles9745
Ай бұрын
Thus is exactly what I was thinking to mirror all the connections in the pcb for the second slot would need more layers or bigger pcb so using a mirrored slot is way easier. I would think if you trimmed off the indexing on the second slot of the unit he built so you could put the cf card in flipped it might just work.
@ayan.debnath
Ай бұрын
VIDEO REQUEST- pls make another video on DMA issue with these adapters. Sometime works, sometimes doesn't..... some says to do add a jumper wire between pins etc.
@chepossofare
Ай бұрын
I thought about the mirror issue in like the first minute of this video. Maybe you can cut out the thick key on the opposite side, but that would be a messy job :D
@YoureUsingWordsIncorrectly
Ай бұрын
First thing I thought of, Here's me pointing at the screen like an idiot too..
@taffeylewis
Ай бұрын
Very useful info. I've often thought about doing this, but never got round to it. You've saved me quite a bit of time. Thanks.
@rofbungle8572
Ай бұрын
I went through this exact journey of discovery this year trying to figure out why the XT-CF-lite card I built wouldn't work. I found a cheap source of the "reverse" CF sockets is CF-IDE adaptors which have brackets with slots for inserting cards at the rear of the PC - the ones that have metal shielding over the CF card. However what I needed was the normal open plastic version without the shielding. Once I checked the pinouts for CF cards and beeped out the XT-CF-lite card and CF socket I figured it all out. Pin 1 isn't always marked. I had no idea they came in two different orientations. Thanks for sharing!
@SianaGearz
Ай бұрын
1:13 "hey those two rows of pads either side look to be in parallel rather than crossed over. I wonder whether he'll think of needing a reverse side mount type of CF socket" Why It's not crossed over? Lack of layout space, the whole adapter would need to be much larger.
@therealjammit
Ай бұрын
I did something like that where I added another PCMCIA card slot. After running into the same mirror problem you had I finally figured it out by mapping every pin from the good slot to the IDE end and comparing it to the PCMCIA slot of the bad card. I worked around it by cutting off the guide slots on the bad connector and manually remembering to flip the "bad" card slot upside down, being very careful to not miss a pin in the process.
@TzOk
Ай бұрын
I knew about the "mirror" CF card slots since building Monotech's XT-CF-mini adapter card.
@necro_ware
Ай бұрын
Oh, does that one use mirrored one? Good to know. I also built various XT-CF adapters so far and none of those needed a mirrored slot. I don't even know where to buy those. All slots I could find for a reasonable price were "normal" ones.
@TzOk
Ай бұрын
@@necro_ware I believe TME has them, e.g. 101D-RACB-R01 and a "complementary" 101D-TAAA-R01. The initial revision of XT-CF-Mini was using the "reverse" slots, later PCB revisions are using "normal" slots.
@necro_ware
Ай бұрын
@@TzOk Thanks. I'll save it in my notes. Unfortunately, with shipping to Germany and taxes that slot would set me back by at least 15$. As I assumed, it's cheaper to get a built adapter. A completely built dual sided CF2IDE adapter costs 8-10€ in Germany and from China you can get it for around 4€.
@TzOk
Ай бұрын
@@necro_ware Really? TME is in Poland (Łódź), and the slot costs ~1€ in either version.
@necro_ware
Ай бұрын
@@TzOk Oh, really? I just saw the part numbers, which look like Digikey and looked there. I thought TME is just kind of abbreviation, which I never heard of. Thanks for the hint, it's good to have a shop with sane prices in the EU. I'll take a look.
@B24Fox
Ай бұрын
6:12 Again, the difference between "rotated" & "mirrored", is VERY important! If you look closely at the pin connections of the slot, they are the same on both slots.. but on the 2nd slot, the plastic guide is rotated against the pins. If you'd pull out only the white plastic guide, and rotate it and put it back on the pins, you would then have an identical slot/item as #1. And I bet that the plastic even has inscriptions on both sides in order to be assembled in both ways on the (otherwise) standard pinout. So, TL;DR , that is not a "mirrored" slot, because the pins connect to the PCB as standard. Only the plastic guide is rotated. So for anyone watching: be careful what you buy. Also, after soldering, you could (in theory) pull out the plastic part, and rotate it and put it back on (if it's not offset, and both "faces" are identical --as in the case of the ones that already come with the CF adapter).
@boam2943
27 күн бұрын
Tip: Always use your multimeter to confirm connections before soldering or ordering parts.
@JamesPotts
29 күн бұрын
As others pointed out the cards share the same pins with the exception of the select lines. With the reverse socket, you can do it all with a 2-layer board.
@andystandys
27 күн бұрын
I bought a couple of these dual-card adapters off of Amazon, and they worked fine for me...
@natr0n
Ай бұрын
I learned a lot. I always wanted to play with these adapters but I have so many 1tb sata drives to use. Maybe one day I can check one out.
@DerekPeldo
Ай бұрын
Great video! I wish there was an adapter that had cf on one side and an full ide connector on the other side. Then I could hook hook up one of these adapters inline so I can easily image existing hard drives in old machines without too much trouble.
@tspawn35
Ай бұрын
They make cf card adapters that you have to connect to the motherboard with an ide cable which does exactly what you are wanting.
@DerekPeldo
Ай бұрын
@@tspawn35 I'm specifically wishing for this specific cf2ide adapter so I can open a machine, unplug the ide cable from the board, plug the adapter into the board, and then plug the cable into the adapter. Sometimes the existing cable only has one connector for one hd and I don't want to go track down another cable just to image a hard drive or copy games to/from the existing drive.
@skyoreece9805
29 күн бұрын
I always click thumps up even before I watch. Love this channel
@Arachnoid_of_the_underverse
Ай бұрын
Because the flash card is held by the pins you could cut the thick side off your pcb , just ensuring to get the card inserted the correct way around.
@nR-kv7xo
Ай бұрын
Very interesting. I learned something similar with the female industrial card, you can’t just solder pins, gotta mirror them aswell
@GuillermoFrontera
Ай бұрын
Yup, make perfect sense. The CF cards needs to share the IDE bus, so they need to be conected Exactly in parallel. So, if you use a normal slot on one side and a mirrored one on the other side, every pin is matched and can share the same trace on the PCB, otherwise you need to invert every trace and the PCB will be a nightmare.
@ruben_balea
Ай бұрын
I got my first CF to IDE adapters over 10 years ago and they were already for two cards, but I never realized that the sockets were mirrored 😅
@moshly64
Ай бұрын
You can also get mirrored RAM chips & very old TTL chips can have alternate pinouts.
@horusfalcon
Ай бұрын
Thanks for sharing this. Even an experienced technician can make a mistake like this. Perhaps you will have saved some folks from the same fate. This is what retro is all about - sharing info so we can all do better.
@LeftyPem
Ай бұрын
Had this exact issue finding the correct CF socket to add onto unpopulated pins on an HP T5730 mainboard.
@xero110
Ай бұрын
My guess on why they make left and right hand versions is for product aesthetics. They don't want people inserting the card upside down if they don't have the room\choice for the card slot placement.
@humidbeing
Ай бұрын
Most connectors are offered in different orientations / mirror image. It has to do with front/back mounting and trace routing.
@spaffers3867
Ай бұрын
I ended up buying male to female 2 inch adapter cables that i plugged into 1 80 wire IDE cable. The CF adapters then slotted into each new slot :)
@chupathingy5862
Ай бұрын
You're absolutely right about cheap things having shoddy soldering. I bought a Famicom adapter for my nes and yeah, it was a miracle the thing even booted at all.
@ale6242
25 күн бұрын
I'd probably just cut off the thick rib side and tape the card in place when plugged into keep it steady. Assuming the pin layout is consistent and also not keyed.
@tiemanowo
Ай бұрын
I did exactly the same thing a few years ago and unfortunately I couldn't figure it out why it is not working. Now I know why.
@jantestowy123
Ай бұрын
How about ginding down the fins and putting the card the other way around? Shoud work.....
@imqqmi
29 күн бұрын
You'll likely misalign the card and bend pins.
@Roobotics
Ай бұрын
They definitely do this to make the PCB as cheaply manufacturable as possible with the least stringent DRC requirements. Would not be surprised if they simply asked the parts manufacturer directly to bend the pins opposite in a bulk order. But to us overseas, it's basically unobtanium(as a single part) as it's something that would never be thought of, much-less requested in-bulk with any frequency.
@rabidwallaby84
Ай бұрын
NGL, I noticed the issue the moment you held the second slot up to the bare PCB backside :P
@tony359
Ай бұрын
Thanks, it’s good to know. I did notice the space at the back but never investigated further. To be honest I stopped using CF adaptors, they work on dos but they don’t on windows 98 and later - well at least my CFs don’t. What is your experience?
@necro_ware
Ай бұрын
To be honest, I rarely use Windows on my retro machines, so my experience is may be not reliable. All of my normal CF cards do work fine actually with Windows 98, however I have one SD2CF card adapter, which I tried to use in such a CF2IDE adapter and that one is problematic indeed. Not only does it seldom work in older machines (older than 486), but it also corrupts my windows 98 installation regularly. I stopped using that one.
@darkhelmet169
Ай бұрын
With windows 98 and up you need to use cards marked as Industrial, which don't get listed as removable devices and have more over provisioning so won't die as fast from swap file use
@lsorense
Ай бұрын
My 486 has a CF adapter in it, and currently has 98 on it. Never had a problem with it so far.
@tony359
Ай бұрын
@@necro_ware Thanks. I have the same adaptor as yours and it gave me many issues on my K6-2 Windows 98 installation until I realised and moved to an HDD. The other day I tried installing Windows XP on the Pentium II and I had "read error" at some point, so I switched to my SD-IDE (not SD to CF) adaptor and it worked fine. Yes, no issues with DOS at all.
@tony359
Ай бұрын
@@darkhelmet169 It's not that they die, they have random reading/writing errors. If I then check the CF, it's fine. My CFs are high speed from reputable brands.
@CaptainDangeax
Ай бұрын
I bought a handfull of those cf adapters. 1 out of 3 wasn't working, either bad soldering or defective diode. I fixed all of them but one
@SimonQuigley
Ай бұрын
I would have just used a blade to shave the thick side guide away so I could put the card in backwards. And write on the pcb to remind me when swapping cards.
@Godzilla941
Ай бұрын
I was thinking of doing the same thing to mine, had a feeling that I wound need a mirrored slot, but never went far enough to look for slots where I usually get my parts (I get sudden amnesia when shopping at Mouser/Digikey...) Incidentally, the soldering on the two adapters I have (identical to the ones in the video) is atrocious and the LEDs are all installed backwards. At least they didn't delaminate the pads. 🤪
@emmettturner9452
Ай бұрын
Somehow, I guessed right away that the port was backwards. :)
@emmettturner9452
Ай бұрын
It just makes sense that they come in both orientations so that board makers can put them on top or bottom with the desired slot orientation outside the computer or device housing.
@wernerviehhauser94
Ай бұрын
Reminds me of unkeyed IDE and Floppy cables back in the days.....
@intel386DX
Ай бұрын
1:50 you soldered the wrong CF connector. You have to use one with which the CF card is facing the same label direction as the first one. It works I used the right CF connector for the job.
@Vermilicious
Ай бұрын
Yeah, that's the problem I was guessing at.
@krizator
Ай бұрын
Good job. Thanks for video.
@pup4301
Ай бұрын
There is almost no expense that will stop me from doing something like this my self. Please post the part differences.
@seedmoreuser
Ай бұрын
Nice catch. Would be impossible to diagnose without having the other adaptors.
@sebastian19745
Ай бұрын
Why not? The logic thing is that the CF cards to be stacked with pin 1 in the same direction. That makes most sense to me. I saw the mistake when he turned around the modded adapter and inserted the second CF card in the wrong way.
@SianaGearz
Ай бұрын
Not even close to impossible. You'll notice the pads either side are in parallel to each other straight on rather than completely mirrored.
@necro_ware
Ай бұрын
That's true, but I didn't expect that. First of all, because I didn't expect, that two identically looking slots would be different and second, because I didn't find another slot to buy. At least for a reasonable price.
@aliencray7269
Ай бұрын
One of those things that became obvious just after 😊
@necro_ware
Ай бұрын
@@aliencray7269 In German we say "afterwards is everybody smarter" ;)
@Tom-hb4un
Ай бұрын
Can you modify the adapter to slide the cf card in backwards?
@PROSTO4Tabal
Ай бұрын
Yes, you can't mirrored same sided adapters you need L+R on both sides of pcb, exception would be L+L or R+R on the same side of pcb is design allow
@lordwiadro83
Ай бұрын
I love CF adapters. I have one front facing in a 3,5" bay, and many cards with DOS, Win98, Linux 😎
@EvilTurkeySlices
28 күн бұрын
You could also cut off the tabs and label which side the thick and thin go into.
@jhesski
28 күн бұрын
I wonder if perhaps the white plasting can slip off the pins and be rotated to the correct oriantation? Would need to desolder the top
@wishusknight3009
Ай бұрын
Break out the dremal on that rib and see if you can insert the card the other way around on the one you made. Though that may not work either.
@ShrineOfLife
27 күн бұрын
mate, I got a 3dfx voodoo 1, it is recognized in windows and I can install the driver without any problems, in the settings it is shown as normal, I can config it via the normal slider in the windows settings screen - but I can not use it in any game! it does not show up with the directX diag, nor in the futuremark benchmark 99. two question, would you have any gut idea, what it could be, the other question, should I send it to you and you make a fine little repair attempt video out of it? cheers, a buddy from germany
@DJLKM1
Ай бұрын
Could you make a short video on how you did the power mod to the IO card, as some cards don't have pin 20 and also some cf adapters also miss this pin.
@rogert151
Ай бұрын
i bough some cheap CF adapters from amazon and they had the IDE connector flipped, i had to grind down the tab and insert them backwards and they work now, something to watch out for
@sonic2000gr
Ай бұрын
So in essence if you remove the plastic sides from your non-working adapters, you will be able to insert the card reversed, therefore solving the problem? (though it will be kinda ugly)
@askoldmodera
Ай бұрын
There's also possibility that with enough force you could pull pins out of the plastic part, like with many other connectors, and install it in opposite direction. Though chances of destroying the connector (and possibly something else) are high
@kokodin5895
Ай бұрын
i learned that during my crazy idea of popularing nvme port of slim hp laptop different heights different installation orientations i bet your slot is going to work if you install it upside down :) but only on a hdd tape becayse it would no longer fit into motherboard
@pickoftheglitter
Ай бұрын
A question/suggestion: except for the 2 CF cards scenario, why to use an CF2IDE adapter when you can buy a Disk On Module instead, that's easier and quite straightforward to use?
@necro_ware
Ай бұрын
Well, basically DOM is nothing else but a flash chip soldered to an IDE adapter. Since a CF card has the same flash memory in it, it's more or less the same thing. But there are many benefits in using CF cards. First of all, they are cheaper and easier to find, than DOMs. Second, using CF cards it's easier to transfer data between your retro hardware. Just insert the CF card into a USB adapter, write the data you need and put it back into your PC. That's extremely convenient.
@incandescentwithrage
Ай бұрын
I have never really understood why CF cards find such widespread use in the retro scene. Assuming you have a PCI equipped motherboard, why not use a SIL3114 card and cheap SATA SSD? You can find the cards on AE for £5, with a silly RAID BIOS on them. You can flash them back to the original early 2000's IDE mode (not AHCI) firmware, no tools required. There are Win98 drivers and they have an on on-board boot ROM. Your system BIOS doesn't need to know anything of the SATA interface. It just works.
@necro_ware
29 күн бұрын
Of course, it's a question of use case. Most of the retro hardware I tinker with has no PCI.
@xephorce
Ай бұрын
this is nice to know at the least I would need to mode a slot to make it work. I wonder how hard it would be to make a small PCB that could be soldered over that side to mirror the connection one more time to make it work with existing CF connectors like you got.
@TzOk
Ай бұрын
Ones with a resistor won't work with 5V from IDE.
@necro_ware
Ай бұрын
They do actually. Use them since years.
@TzOk
Ай бұрын
@@necro_ware It is connected between 5V and GND. Fortunately, it is high enough value, it isn't burning.
@19watcher86
Ай бұрын
👍
@Bedfford
Ай бұрын
I'm tired of testing SD/CF adapters and DOM disk on my vintage systems. The first problem is female IDE connector from the adapter that use the whole IDE port on the motherboard, so the slave drive are wasted. Second the cryptic nomenclature of the speeds of the CF cards and there are many suspicions that these are pirated cards. Third is the slow speed obtained under my Win98. Fourth, some old mobo chipset refuse to detect the adapter or become very unstable about connection and speeds. Until now, my only half-satisfactory solution is use SATA/IDE adapters with master/slave jumpers and male IDE connector. This provide a decent performance and stability. However the 8GB limitation in old BIOS is other story...
@kjrchannel1480
Ай бұрын
I prefer using the IDE to cf adapters with male 40 pin headers and M/S jumper included. I tried those cf to SD adapters and found they have no provision for a M/S pin connection other than maybe using a cable select compliant IDE cable. The IDE to SD adapters have that same downside. I can tell also that some CF cards use MicroSD speed rated technology on the cheap side" cloud disk" is an example of that. The work around for that 8Gb bios limitation is if you have a USB capable board or expansion card, and maybe a USB hub. Then you can use the max the OS will allow. I have connected 240GB sata drive in a USB case and got full use. Maybe you discovered some of this already.
@Bedfford
Ай бұрын
@@kjrchannel1480 yep, one method to workaround the 8gb limitation is create a primary partition (limited to 8GB) then format the disk under the old system, move the disk under a newer computer and with Partition Wizard then add a logical partition of the rest of the disk capacity and then align both. Copy the Win98 files to the primary partition and move the disk to the old system. For some reason this keeps the disk/partition detection for BIOS and Windows happy.
@kolbyte
29 күн бұрын
Зря я для своих 486\586 накупил одинарных CF2IDE, нет? По идее этот переходник пассивный, и CF совместим с IDE (за небольшим исключением), и одновременной работы на одном переходнике не добиться, не совсем понятно как две CF будут параллельно работать на таком переходнике.
@PatientXero607
Ай бұрын
So are we looking at another product from you that works better than the CF2IDE adapters from China?
@necro_ware
Ай бұрын
So far no real need to invest time. Despite of the low quality, they cost next to nothing and you still can buy those easily.
@GameBacardi
Ай бұрын
Isn't compact flash cards very expensive when compare to the small SSDs ?
@lsorense
Ай бұрын
Probably but small SSDs generally don't come in IDE.
@GameBacardi
Ай бұрын
@@lsorense so do not compact flash cards :D There are IDE to sata adapters as well. I have also PCI extension card from 2000's what help connect sata hard drives. This card even work on BOOT section! Promise SATA300 TX2plus
@lsorense
Ай бұрын
@@GameBacardi But you are doing extra adapters for SATA. Compact flash is natively IDE. Many older systems have IDE but nothing else so compact flash is very convenient. PCMCIA was ISA and IDE (since IDE was essentially the 16bit ISA bus from the IBM AT), and compact flash uses a subset of the PCMCIA interface, and is hence also natively IDE. The adapter simply has to connect the pins correctly and that's about all it does.
@Mr_Meowingtons
23 күн бұрын
i have a a few that take 2 CF cards and i never got any of them to work with 2 cards.
@necro_ware
18 күн бұрын
I have one 2GB CF card which doesn't work as a "slave". It always has to be used as "master", but it works fine with my other CF cards which work as "slave". May be your CF cards don't like to be "slaves" as well.
@Flesy
25 күн бұрын
Can you publish somewhere one of them card in img file or zip or something? Maybe some of your viewer use them to own projects. Or make a menü detail, or sample autoexec.bat and config.sys file or just simple dirlist. I'll be happy if one of them came true. Thank's
@TerroMin
Ай бұрын
It's my mistake to ))
@Popclone
29 күн бұрын
so just break the plastic tabs and flip the card bro!
@B24Fox
Ай бұрын
The connection(s) with the cable at 0:58 , are wrong. Just converting from "female" to "male", isn't enough. The electrical connections have to be mirrored/inverted. For that, you have to buy/make another adapter, in the form of a PCB, or a cable... that would plug in between the CF thingy, and the standard IDE cable, and ACTUALLY change the gender (including electrically). So TL;DR, just using straight metal pins with an IDE cable to "pretend" to change it's gender, won't work... no matter which way you rotate it.
@necro_ware
29 күн бұрын
This is what I wrote as a side note in the video.
@SaltyMeatHook
Ай бұрын
All this talk about thick slots got me all hot and bothered.
@necro_ware
Ай бұрын
LOL :)
@matt.604
Ай бұрын
And they're ribbed for your pleasure
@vitobelflores6510
Ай бұрын
Shit 🤦 compré 10 de una sola ranura porque no hallé de doble.
@darthtripedacus1
Ай бұрын
Could you just shave down the guides to make it bi-directional or have PCB Way make one either the traces swapped
@Pikachu062
Ай бұрын
1:31 Windows 96 🤣🤣
@TinchoX
Ай бұрын
What the hell? Good catch! 😂
@madyogi6164
Ай бұрын
But this was more than obvious since the beginning. You've reversed the slot you've soldered.
@necro_ware
Ай бұрын
Yeah, but since I didn't even know about existence of the mirrored slots, I thought that the solder pads would be mirrored. It didn't even came into my mind, that slots which are looking and named identical would be mechanically different. Hence the video.
@madyogi6164
Ай бұрын
@@necro_ware 😁👌👍You're ding great job. Cool to watch.
@lsorense
Ай бұрын
@@necro_ware Having the same name on them is just inconsiderate of the designers.
@tcscomment
Ай бұрын
so you soldered it the wrong way?
@SianaGearz
Ай бұрын
You can only solder it one way, you need a different type of socket to begin with.
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