I really enjoy your thoughts on these kinds of topics. It is definitely the kind of thing I'm thinking about when designing out different types of combat locations for Squad. Your description of why it doesn't work in games I think also more accurately describes the position Squad takes in the tactical shooter genre being a stepped down simplified version of; platoon combat, aircraft, vehicles, weapon systems, etc. Walking down thoroughly trained battle drills into more general purpose methods you can apply as a Squad Leader becomes the most enjoyable and successful version for everyone involved especially in public matches. The high task load Squad leads have I think necessitates you to simplify your instructions to setup your 8 other members into the easiest to understand and most efficient job possible. That really is what defines good leadership in Squad, best employing your Squad members to setup them for individual success often without them even realizing. It's what I look for when building out levels for Squad, does this location require these kinds of broader concepts to succeed? Or is it overly simple to the extent that just brute force of blobs walking onto cap win. I've found the most fun comes from sufficiently complex locations that push teams to actually lead there players through successful firefights and not just meat grind it out.
@HaebyungDance
6 күн бұрын
That’s super cool to hear - thanks for the comment!
@isaacbrowning5871
16 күн бұрын
One of the biggest issues I've seen trying to use any real-life tactics in games is the lack of discipline most people have. They want to have the maximum amount of excitement and fun. (it's a game, so I completely understand). It's difficult to get them to hold a sector that doesn't currently have contact. They tend to funnel into a small space, all seeking to be the one who gets the kill. They all want to be a hero so bad they end up leaving flanks and rear open to attack. Even if you can get them In a wedge, they will all cover 10 to 2. You may as well just run in a line, you would have the same level of security. Guys take important kits and run off to live their dream of being a main character. At some point, things became unpractical not because it couldn't work but because people won't do it.
@HaebyungDance
16 күн бұрын
I totally agree. It comes down to finding the right people to play with, which is a whole different struggle. I wanted to spend some time talking about the pure gameplay principles. But yeah. It’s the eternal Squad struggle.
@Hinokassaudifan1
16 күн бұрын
shameless plug in for the 7th server. join us. it's fun. (when we don't get randoms that ruin the fun)
@27Pyth
16 күн бұрын
Real life tactics are for real life... where people fight like there are no respawns --just infinite darkness, forever. SL role is very challenging... its so hard to do well. You have way to much to do, too many voices to listen to, and there's always someone incompetent making life miserable. . My experience is 95% of infantry guys who' ve joined an infantry squad are desperate for good leadership (the one man army types ride off in light vehicles to shoot up the nearest saloon) and will do what you ask -- until they lose their confidence in you.... Boring a squad to death is just one way to lose a squad, but its a way.
@famulanrevengeance3044
16 күн бұрын
@@27Pyth That's so true hahah. Me and my friend joke about 'losing aura' when your plans don't work out as a SL. Defending without contact for too long, giving someone an order and they ignore it, uncertainty, slow to formulate plans. All of this chips away at squad morale and cohesion and before you know it people leave or do their own thing
@jmgonzales7701
15 күн бұрын
@@27Pyth because there is always a Human element involved, its why i stopped playing Most milsims because a system that relies on players coming together that does not force them to work into a system will never work its kinda like the communism vs capitalism debate. Communism sounds good on paper but due to selfish interests of humans its hard to make it work. Just like squad many players especially new players don't know much about tactics, strategy, positioning and coordination. Their instinct is only go to said point aim at bad guy then shoot. Its also why you players scattered doing their own thing. Unless they create a mechanic that removes the "player" aspect nothing will fix milsims. Its why i rather play rts nowadays.
@Hinokassaudifan1
16 күн бұрын
you'll always get that ONE guy who never listens to the squad leader's tactics anyways.
@HaebyungDance
16 күн бұрын
Yup.
@isaacbrowning5871
16 күн бұрын
Kick him. It's not worth wasting a spot on a guy who's going off on his own anyway.
@Dark_Brandon_2024
16 күн бұрын
@@isaacbrowning5871that guy actually knows how to be more helpful and impactful but sl removes him from squad to lose a ticket and his help afterwards that will lead to even more tickets lost 😢
@rinsonator1668
15 күн бұрын
Kick. Players should respect the SQL role. Every player join a team = should work as a team.
@niceyzuzu5036
15 күн бұрын
As a squad leader if I get a solo dolo i just kick them from my squad. I don't have to be undermined by a squad member and i'd rather have a small focused group than a large unfocused
@spysareamyth
16 күн бұрын
My 2 cents: In my experience its very hard to maintain positional awareness in a game, between the narrow fov and very limited spatial audio. In real life, I can take 6 random guys and move in a cohesive formation in pitch black over rough terrain - its natural to know where people are in the space around you so its natural to hold your position relative to them. I can hear if the guy 30 metres to my right is lagging a little, in a game I would have to be staring at the map the entire time to get the same effect, so people dont as they really have bigger things to worry about.
@HaebyungDance
16 күн бұрын
I totally agree. The spatial awareness in game is absent, while at the same time things like the map make it an obsolete in a way? Overall it’s the general principles that can apply, and not much of the nitty gritty.
@famulanrevengeance3044
16 күн бұрын
@@HaebyungDance Also, people can't understand eachother, removing even more awareness of eachother. Some players have their volume on 100% and their voice chat volume on 100% as well. Meaning that any sort of combat in a 150m radius completely deafens them. It's so demoralizing to make callouts and strategize just to hear a ''uhhh.... I can't hear you'' 5 seconds later, 10 times in a single match. Drop effects volume to 50%, crank up voice chat to 200%, do whatever you need to hear people loud and clear without being deafened by light or distant combat. And just learn to call everything out twice in a row. Sometimes make the same callout several times if it's important like an enemy tank close, saying it twice in a row, it really takes time before some people understand you lol
@viktoriyaserebryakov2755
15 күн бұрын
@@HaebyungDance I wouldn't call it obsolete. It can be hard to notice when you're facing the other way that the people right behind you have started moving away from you. If you had a minimap or something and you habitually looked at it or something then maybe but not having spatial audio and not being able to physically feel things in your environment takes away a lot from that awareness.
@HaebyungDance
15 күн бұрын
Yeah I think that lack of audio to hear your buddies and such is a super underrated element that’s lacking
@oscaranderson5719
13 күн бұрын
HUD elements to know where your nearby buddies are and which one you’re looking and are super-important, even if they don’t quite feel realistic
@niftytheviking
10 күн бұрын
Former Planetside 2 player, wherein I was a (minor) member of a very large and quite successful unit at the time. We regularly employed tactics and strategy to win large-scale engagements, and I have a couple cents to add on the subject of formations: Line and column formations are about all you will be able to accomplish with an undisciplined unit of what are essentially randoms BUT... The effectiveness and utility of these formations CANNOT be overstated, to the point where even this most basic level of coordination can be used to take on forces double and triple your size if the opfor are NOT coordinated. Seriously, there's a reason forming a line is one if not the oldest formations in the book and is still the basis of most maneuvers even today. They are also scalable, which is incredibly useful when the size of engagements fluctuate rapidly. Additionally, true randoms will naturally fall into your line because it is so effective at covering each other's flanks. It provides some safety in a firefight that randoms naturally gravitate to. Columns are an effective way to wrangle a large force into moving in the right direction. They pretty much point the direction of attack all on their own and leaders really only need to direct the front end. Everything else will follow. This is particularly useful in games where you have players constantly respawning in, it's like a water hose you point at the fire. By now, something should be catching your attention, and that is I'm pretty much only speaking in large group terms, at least 12 members or more, or platoon strength or greater. At the squad level, four to eight people, formations are important in real life, but in game they choke the natural flow, make you stiff and unresponsive. Let squads to platoons flow as they naturally will, worry about formations at the strategic level. Think in terms of stretching out multiple squads or platoons on a line, but let them arrange themselves as they need and everything falls into place. Pay attention to who your more coordinated, stronger squads are though, because you will want those to be your hammers and anvils, the ones you use to roll opposing lines up on the flanks or to hold strategically important points. They say you're only as strong as your weakest link, and to a degree that is true, but battles are not chains, they are hammers and anvils, and so long as your handles are able to support the hammer head and avoid the anvil, they are just as important and crucial to your formations as the hard mofo's in your ranks. Tl;Dr LINES AND COLUMNS. LARGESCALE. DON'T LET THEM ROLL YOUR FLANKS. Don't worry about formations at squad level, worry about cover and sectors of fire, and effective positioning/protecting of your specialties like anti tank and MG element.
@TheBloodyPoint
4 күн бұрын
Not a perfect example, but this is AN example of what you're talking about. At some moments, the column organically has almost perfect spacing: kzitem.info/news/bejne/sKCclqKbqXdlkpg
@ThisisKyle
3 сағат бұрын
As one of those randoms I have to agree.
@ltstaffel5323
16 күн бұрын
Really appreciate this video series--not only does it help me understand what dynamics are present in games that twist how tactics apply, but it's also as a byproduct helped me understand the spirit of how these manuals are written and what they're trying to codify. As usual, by the time something makes it into a manual, the thing that makes the doctrine useful has been so concretized that you can't see the point of it for all the details that are over-emphasized. I understand now what I've been feeling is missing from Ready or Not (SWAT game), is that without declaring whose responsibilities and sectors are what, people either all try to breach or all try to hang back and get in each others way while simultaneously neglecting one responsibility or the other. I'm realizing now that what has made some random online teams in shooters like Squad work so well was that everyone (by pure chance) naturally assigned themselves responsibilities that combined nicely. This video is a great reminder that second to communicating the strategic vision, a leader's top priority is assigning responsibilities and/or making sure people know what they're responsible for. Exactly how that is accomplished doesn't matter nearly as much as making it happen in the first place
@HaebyungDance
16 күн бұрын
Thanks for this comment - this understanding is what I’m trying to deliver so it’s awesome to hear how it’s impacted you!
@migueeeelet
10 күн бұрын
" a leader's top priority is assigning responsibilities and/or making sure people know what they're responsible for" Holy crap, this is what I've been missing. I've done plenty of roles as a squad member, and many times I've found myself constantly switching between being the guy opening the door and the guy covering the back. I wish our squad leaders put all that in stone rather than do a constant rotation.
@NINTHSKULL
15 күн бұрын
As a squad leader playing with randoms I will usually just call out "Make a line left to right facing contact!" or establish that SOP beforehand. It is extremely simple and most randoms can actually handle that with no preparation. I find it quite helpful to quickly bring firepower to front and minimize stacking up.
@HaebyungDance
15 күн бұрын
That’s a good way to handle it
@NINTHSKULL
14 күн бұрын
@@HaebyungDance Should sectors of responsibility still apply when responding to enemy contact? Or is it primarily for traveling, like the formation itself? Hard to keep security when engaged in a firefight...
@HaebyungDance
14 күн бұрын
Like I mention in the video, a formation is for movement. The moment a firefight starts everything changes. I want to explain it more in my next vid but the gist is you’ll be switching to bounding/flanking and suppression/assault in a fight. Notice that none of those things typically involve formations, although security is something that should be remembered.
@NINTHSKULL
14 күн бұрын
@@HaebyungDance Yes so like my original "on line" maneuver. Then manuevering FTs to provide cover/security/assault.
@HaebyungDance
14 күн бұрын
Yeah and the fireteams themselves would theoretically break into buddy teams, which break into individuals.
@EliacimRodriguez
13 күн бұрын
Bottom line is people are not scared like they would if it was real life. That will get you to do everything to not rush to your death.
@migueeeelet
10 күн бұрын
IRL you'll avoid seeing (and thus being seen) by the enemy as much as possible.
@BalgaBear
9 күн бұрын
When Patrolling sure you'll use a formation, but if you're actively engaged in combat, no one is maintaining a formation. Source: Marine Corps combat
@MoreEvilThanYahweh
8 күн бұрын
It's also why suppressing fire doesn't work in games, the psychological impact isn't there
@I_Am_Kas
8 күн бұрын
@MoreEvilThanYahweh BF3 and 4 gave it a good try, but in many games, you can change some settings, and the effects are gone, sadly.
@cliccclacc6561
7 күн бұрын
@@MoreEvilThanYahwehwhen games reduce your accuracy or dim your vision it usually results in the guy getting shot putting his head down so he can reengage effectively
@unamejames
9 күн бұрын
"Don't line up and don't bunch up" will serve you in 99% of gaming. A dispersed blob is actually better than trying to make a shape, because your opponent is going to be a blob and if your formation can be enfiladed it will be in a video game. Getting people to cover sectors would make a big difference, but I never had success getting people to do it lol. Everybody wants to empty their hose on the fire.
@drunkoctopus6769
10 сағат бұрын
I actually like playing flanker / sidecover because it lets me find the one other dbag like me
@IAsimov
8 күн бұрын
This was an intelligent observation. In videogames, we take intelligence and information for granted, as it is something we receive immediately for gaming convenience and fun, whereas a real conflict has a massive fog-of-war that can very much ruin every plan zero. Real-life formations seem to take care of that information as you mention. Semi-related, I realized that a player tradition in Dungeons and Dragons has a similar theory behind squad movement in dungeons themselves: Skill monkeys/leaders out front, dedicated warriors/tanks in the back, mages/AoE attackers in the middle, and clerics/druids behind as healers or secondary fighting. With the game being based around what the DM narrates, it kind of makes sense in this scenario.
@FormerGovernmentHuman
13 күн бұрын
One major factor that happens in games that usually can’t happen more than once IRL is when applying a tactic dozens of times successfully in a game you may gain confidence however one lucky play of an MG player putting down an entire fire team in a wedge or an entire breach team dying on entry to pure luck has every second guessing whether it was worth applying strategy at all to begin with. In real life we stick with it because it our most effective tactic in that moment that we all know the playbook of, and if shit goes really wrong we don’t get to respawn and second guess ourselves. You are far more willing to commit to tactics and committing to overlapping responsibilities because your life and your brothers life is in your hands and while death is terrifying to most, to some the idea of losing a brother to your own incompetence or mistake is an even more terrifying prospect. Fear has a very important place within modern military tactics as well which is something you can only make players fear for a short time and only while risking something of value. In real life if someone is holed up in a building and rounds are ripping through every window, wall and crevice in order to suppress you, you aren’t very likely to take a peak and one tap some random dude. The final ingredients are discipline and respect for leadership. Nobody but professional teams ever display discipline and commitment in games typically and if you do take it that seriously it’s pretty cringe. Leadership is difficult in video games, you have to run a tight ship but it can’t be all serious you have to make it fun. Learned that the hard way as a GM and raid leader on wow for 6 years. As a combat and “disabled” veteran who spent their entire career in special operations it is incredibly difficult for me to have any respect for someone attempting to be a voice of authority in a video game about my profession. I also have absolutely no desire to be in that position myself and role play my old job. I just want to run around like an idiot, and there in lies the problem, we all want to run around like an idiot and stack up kills. Not hold a sector, hold your security and listen to everyone else smoke dudes while the guy thats never left his home town wants to give commands. I feel the only true way to get the right atmosphere is to have premade combat teams with one life per match mechanics and something else of value on the line. Anyways rant over idk. I run around on tarkov like an idiot while everyone tries to be tactical too, and end up with significantly more loot and kills than the average player.
@HaebyungDance
13 күн бұрын
Hey dude, I respect that. So for context I served in the South Korean Marine Corps and discharged a sergeant as a rifle squad leader. I won’t pretend to be what I’m not. I’m not a combat vet, not a super duper expert. But for two years of my life I dedicated myself to learning my trade so that if it came down to it I’d be the best prepared I could be. Nowadays I have fun playing video games like Squad and run into a lot of people who try and take those real-world principles and use them in the game, but have some misunderstandings with major implications. The goal of these discussion videos is to really sit down and talk about this stuff and just momentarily seriously consider the principles behind real world shit and how that translates to the game. When it comes down to it I agree the point needs to be to have fun, and I really think I show that in my other videos focused more on gameplay. Everyone has fun in different ways but yeah fun is the goal. So again, I have full respect for how you like to spend your time, and for your career of service. But realize that nothing I do in this channel undermines that.
@Space_Parrot
13 күн бұрын
I've thought of 1 life games with a buy in to participate. You come out alive you get your money back. I think that'd be a good way to put a good looming sense of permanence and loss to death in the videogame as everyone has something real on the line
@FormerGovernmentHuman
13 күн бұрын
@@HaebyungDance My mistake if you think I was making reference or comparison to you, just offering a broad perspective of why I don’t enjoy that kind of play or have the desire to participate in it. I’ve seen plenty of people that do get immense enjoyment when immersion and small unit tactics combine to succeed, and at times I do play that role for others enjoyment but certainly not my own.
@HaebyungDance
13 күн бұрын
@FormerGovernmentHuman ah that was my misunderstanding then. All good and my bad! Anyways, I think you raised a lot of excellent points I really liked, especially the first paragraph because like you said - you will do everything in your power to ensure that you do your part and more if possible to protect your brothers. It was really well put and I appreciate your contribution to the discussion. And dude - even I, who loves the milsim - just needs to let loose and do stupid shit and be there for the laughs.
@oscaranderson5719
13 күн бұрын
played arma, think some of the magic that pulls squads together is a commitment to immersion. nobody’s gonna (openly) second-guess the squad leader when it means ruining the experience. also running a squad is an interesting experience, makes me feel like an assistant manager that happens to have a gun- always a little concerned about being too micro-managey but there’s a flow to dishing out good, clear orders and it’s a good feeling when you get into the rhythm.
@swordsman1_messer
16 күн бұрын
This is the disconnect between milsim and shooters. Squad, being the middle ground, is won or lost by whether a team and their individual squads are playing less restrictive ARMA, or Battlefield with extra steps.
@HaebyungDance
16 күн бұрын
It’s that strategic meta game with the FOBs that’s all important.
@swordsman1_messer
16 күн бұрын
@@HaebyungDance I disagree. Even without FOB hunting, a good jeep/wheeled IFV squad intercepting logistics is just as good. Hell, you in your video pointed out how effective a real time map makes formations essentially pointless. Having played both this, Squad 44, and War Thunder, most don’t even take advantage of the free information such a map provides, especially when someone goes down.
@taramaforhaikido7272
10 күн бұрын
@@swordsman1_messer Your mistake is assuming it's about only FOB hunting. What about setting up your own FOB in the right spot? I won an entire match just by sneaking in a truck with one other person and setting up an FOB behind the enemy front line in a city. Disagree all you want, it isn't changing the fact the match was won when an entire army poured out and won the match. The enemy was didn't just lose. They were crushed from two sides. Honestly, that might be one of the problems of SQUAD. That it rellies too much on FOBs. Once you lose so many FOBs people just wait for the game to end. It stops being engaging at that point. As much as I enjoy making an FOB and turning the tide of a war, FOBs and tickets seem to slow the game down in a none immersive way which leaves players feeling like there's no point. The objectives need to be more varied. "Fighting over location X" is still fighting over a location. What about other objectives? Planetside 2 suffers from the same problem with their spawn trucks. In that case it causes people to zerg rush with tunnel vision. Different problem but for similar reasons. Spawning needs to be better balanced. A game like Stalcraft will have players respawning at main base after death, which leads to more intense situations. Death is more of a consequence in that game. A game like SCP: Secret Laboratory will have players spawn together every few mins, ensuring people are together. Instead of one at a time.
@WALancer
11 күн бұрын
Don't know if your going to read it, but the most important difference between real life and video games is everyone moves like an Olympic sprinter. It may seem like you are moving slow in game when you walk but generally speaking you are moving at a real persons running pace. So when you do formations to move your self from point A to point B, you can not possibly cover your sector because you have to look back at the leader every 2 seconds to see if he made a direction change or a halt. Where in real life you can get away with 5-10 seconds of scanning while walking before looking back at your leader to see if they have halted or changed direction. In closing, the games would be nightmarishly boring if the characters moved at the speed real people do.
@HaebyungDance
11 күн бұрын
I read every comment :) But yeah you’re right. And in games we tend to move at the fastest speed possible for as long as possible, whereas in real life we take it much slower 99% of the time. Hard thing to recreate in games in a fun way.
@taramaforhaikido7272
10 күн бұрын
That's why I like games that slow down and have more pacing. All "fast paced" games do is encourage impatient habits. I've won entire wars, and get good results in real life, because I slow down. Observer. And pay attention. If people don't learn to do that first and foremost and only get desperate for fun then it's no wonder they're screwing up. If you leave your flanks exposed and no one is covering your rear then excuse me as I set up an FOB behind your front line when I sneak in and hold fire. Know when not to shoot. When to overwatch. When to do nothing even. Helldivers 2 actually covers that in training. Hit the dirt and don't move. It's a faster paced game, but it's teaching a good lesson there.
@stephennewcomb4575
4 күн бұрын
@@HaebyungDance A stamina bar could be interesting and if you reach full fatigue you cant sprint till full again and increased recoil too during the duration.
@dab2burns
16 күн бұрын
I agree that getting the rough idea across for movement is what matters and what works. I regularly tell the squad to spread out a bit as we head in x direction and at least some of them will get the idea. I think that's the best that can be hoped for with a public match.
@HaebyungDance
16 күн бұрын
And even that is a huge improvement over 99% of the time.
@viktoriyaserebryakov2755
15 күн бұрын
I habitually try to space myself from other people just because you learn quickly enough it's not always a good idea to be right next to someone else, and when you're trying to keep this spacing but you're also trying to follow someone, it's naturally easier to also be further back to keep them in yours sight instead of constantly looking left and right to see if you're where you're suppose to be. That naturally forms a sort of wedge without even really trying to.
@taramaforhaikido7272
10 күн бұрын
I prefer spreading out because it makes people less of a target and covers overwatching more. But if I need to flank and hit fast and hard get everyone on a truck and slaughter the enemy APCs before the enemy gets them into the main battle. It's all about knowing where to move. Spec ops behidn enemy lines missions is what I'm good at. To the point just two people can get an FOB behind enemy lines and crush the enemy. No front line will save you if you don't cover the flanks and rear. This is something people often neglet because they're desperate for a quick fight. People tend to get stuck with tunnel vision and zerg rush. Exploit that. Use it to your advantage. You can also account for this with your own allies. If you know where the front line is going to be then work around it and cover the flank. If your allies don't work with you then work with them instead. If they won't make the formation then create it yourself.
@kryniov111
11 күн бұрын
My father was working in security training. In real life and in the game, we have noticed that for most unskilled people, the rhomboid formation works best. Its advantage is that it is equally resistant to attack from all sides and lack of proffesionality of one person is not a tragedy because areas of responsibility are doubled. Also there are not straight line where one burst can hit more than 2 people. I also agree with you on one thing about wedges. When I was in the army, they used to say "War is not a pharmacy. Everything doesn't have to be measured exactly to decimal places."
@migueeeelet
10 күн бұрын
"Sir, I had to avoid a rock, requesting everyone to hold back for 0.1s so I can return to my wedge spot"
@RavensEagle
8 күн бұрын
I Don't even know what a rhomboid formation is and google isn't really helpful in showing pictures showing them
@HaebyungDance
8 күн бұрын
Diamond formation
@Auron3991
5 күн бұрын
Something touched on, but I think is influential enough to deserve a second mention, is that any video game soldier is superhuman, often with impossibly accurate weaponry. A normal human is not whipping a .50 Cal around from prone and popping someone right behind them. Admittedly, I've played more on the CoD/Battlefield side of things, but there are just some things people will pull that cannot be done IRL (or at least not done effectively) simply for this reason. This means tactics made assuming the enemies are human have a massive blind spot in games. Well, that and the fact that no one has to care about logistic management. If a map has a vehicle, that vehicle will be there at the start, meaning people are incentivized to be a little riskier with supplies. Real world people run out of Jeeps real fast if they load every one of them down with explosives for an impromptu fireworks delivery.
@ketamu5946
13 күн бұрын
Formations are good when people obey and follow the duties of their class. Best example is mechanized push. Dismounting from IFV and lining up behind it in two parallel lines while slowly advancing under cover fire. When the positions are reached the fireteams spread out to designated positions and the ifv can slowly reverse while the fireteams clear buildings and take up positions. Works like a charm and makes one squad fight like 3 squads at the same time.
@adambrande
11 күн бұрын
not in squad but in another game like it, I like playing in mounted infantry squads since there's always one guy minimum excited to leave the vehicle to start shooting who quickly banzai charges and die the moment they leave the vehicle.
@taramaforhaikido7272
10 күн бұрын
The problem is people don't want to slow down unless you really drill it into them. People often lack patience.
@ketamu5946
5 күн бұрын
@@taramaforhaikido7272 I tell them to not bother staying in squad because I kick when not obeyed because it will hamper the winning chance of the rest of the mates. Usually I also take a light vehicle with guns besides a transport for bravo which is HAT+LAT, Rifleman/grenade and dedicated bravo medic. They get independec when granted and are send around to rush HABs and ralleys as well as rescue tracked vehicles, while charlie is always object securing, with own medic, sniper, LMG and engi with wide peremitter scanning objective from ideal positions or covering advances of bravo. Usually it works really awesome on most maps. In defence all other squads can go on attack while my squad manages to bind several enemy squads and vehicles to a failed advance. Even with randoms that find together they get hyped by the amount of kills they get... The other squad leads are more work then my squads after I drilled them 🤣
@MisterFoxton
14 күн бұрын
All good points, but one I feel that you didn't touch upon was the "game rules" that the players (mostly) intrinsically understand that inform their posture, movement and response to engagement. For the most part veteran players will know the terrain very well, they'll understand where the enemy will come from, their equipment, what their silhouette will look like, they're objective and motivation, how long it will take in the beginning of a round for enemy elements to arrive at certain areas and therefore what is safe, there will be game borders, terrain or objects that are impossible to access and there are senses we use in real life that are absent or limited in the game that help our situational awareness. I've been enjoying Reforger because it's new to me and the difference in animations, maps and the more sandbox approach to missions brings me back to noob days where tactics sometimes trump skill.
@HaebyungDance
14 күн бұрын
That’s a good point. I should really try Reforger
@michaelfisher4737
13 күн бұрын
I think it goes deeper, one aspect you missed on formations is flexibility (idk if its in the ranger handbook) and what this refures to is how easy is it to break out into maneuvers, peeling, bounding, and such. Which requires even more training. But what I do think can be done without training is self deciplne of holding cover, sectors or look at map and plug holes in the front line. You can not train a squad in the minutes before a game starts, but you can be the best individual you can and help as much as you can when you jump in.
@HaebyungDance
13 күн бұрын
Great point on flexibility. It’s especially important for when you’re transitioning into the fight. And you’re right good individuals can mitigate a lack of unit cohesion.
@thegillfishguy1
16 күн бұрын
I can't even run squad and still I love your videos just because I love the game as well as seeing these breakdowns of real concepts with easily illustratable examples. Like diagrams are nice, but moving diagrams in the game where you can see everything working together along with caveats for practicability, now that's tacticool
@HaebyungDance
16 күн бұрын
Thank you
@MrBeattBox
16 күн бұрын
Guys please there is literally 20% aim assist buff when you walk in Wedge formation with 45 degree angle :P Jokes aside really good video man i seriously love this series.
@HaebyungDance
16 күн бұрын
Thanks man! I’m going to try and get a lot more of these out.
@MachinedFace88ttv
16 күн бұрын
This mechanic exist in WAR of RIGHTS
@famulanrevengeance3044
16 күн бұрын
@@MachinedFace88ttv It proves that a sandbox cannot be allowed and you need punishing game design to get players to do what you want them to do, so they have a good experience
@R_trigger1344
10 күн бұрын
@@MachinedFace88ttvNo it doesn’t, being in formation just gives you more xp im pretty sure
@taramaforhaikido7272
10 күн бұрын
Lying from humor is still lying.
@WhatIsSanity
13 күн бұрын
I've encountered the same experiences and have similar thoughts on this when playing games. I've never needed or expected literal by the book tactics from other players or even a in depth knowledge of X Y Z fields of knowledge one can apply to milsim and shooters, both because I lack any training or experience and also because it's unreasonable. That's not where my frustrations arise from. What I've found frustrating is as you said people on fixating details that have less relevance and or importance. Bare with me here 😆 In 20 years of playing various genres on various platforms I've picked up on some patterns of behaviour I've seen repeated many times by many people. Sticking to shooters in general, I've noticed people struggle the most(myself included) not because of a lack of twitch reflexes, real life experience, 'tactical knowledge' or any other highly specific skill or knowledge; no rather a lack neuroplasticity the ability to take in new information, learn adapt and problem solve and social skills when it comes to team based games. As an example I've met so many people that would put hundreds or thousands of hours into a game and never learn how to play it properly. They're dedicated to putting time into it even if they aren't consistently having a good time just banging their head against a wall, but they're desperate to win every time they play. Such people I've found are EXTREMELY resistant to doing anything that requires learning to get that win, especially learning about a broader topic that applies to what they're doing like unit formations, fields of fire, ballistics anything like that they won't have it. Even getting them to learn a new skill like picking up a different class, trying a different game mode or taking a path through the map they haven't used before is a struggle. They have the energy to rage, scream questions they don't want the answer to, make angry posts, harass people etc but not take a step to the left instead of the right 😂 The more surface level the information and the less thinking needed the more likely people are to try it, like making the shape for a formation. So we shouldn't teach/drill formations with the average gamer, and even if we could teach them which we can't it wouldn't bare many fruits. The problem is we also struggle to teach the average gamer *absolutely anything at all* ....Like not passing through the line of fire when repositioning and other simple things are just baffling to people. I must have seen tens of thousands of players at this point intentionally walk into a firing machine gun and wonder why they got shot 🙄 Not to mention the ones that get medical attention and immediately do it again. Yeah formations don't work in video games because the vast majority of players don't understand the fundamentals that formations enable such as areas of responsibility, situational awareness and optimising firepower or social skills like trust, basic communication, cooperative behaviours etc Pff Vast majority of people that play team based games have little to no teamwork ethic what so ever, and just as much desire to learn. People cringe and recoil in horror at the prospect of acquiring any kind of life skills. Conclusion: Peoples struggle to perform in games is merely a symptom of larger societal social issues. You can probably assume the anti-social dumb dumbs we meet in game likely struggle just as much in their personal and professional lives as they do online, and that's really sad.
@StageWatcher
9 күн бұрын
What I'm gathering from this is that formations naturally materialize in video games all the time. Having played many hours of Battlefield and similar titles, it's very common for large teams to maximize firepower along the axis of opposing contact, with individual players taking on zones of responsibility. This typically just happens without any complex communication.
@callanlandry
6 күн бұрын
The comment about players being more concerned about the shape of the formation made me smile. I have seen real life infantry team and squad leaders yelling at soldiers during field training battle drills to maintain wedge formations through rough or impassable terrain. Some people whether it be in video games or real life just completely miss point of infantry formations.
@HaebyungDance
6 күн бұрын
I’ve seen it too lol. I guess another is in real life you’re doing more than just formations - you’re teaching attention to detail, discipline, etc. but even then… Nobody wants that in a video game anyways. Have fun you know?
@csudab
4 күн бұрын
Narrator: emotion starts to creep into voice when describing players fixating on only the shape of a formation The Emperor: yess good GOOOD!
@joshuabrown7815
15 күн бұрын
OWI should make the in game loading screen cycle through tactical infographics. Enough reps of the ranger handbook and I bet blueberry IQ will double
@HaebyungDance
15 күн бұрын
Fuckin’ facts
@WhatIsSanity
13 күн бұрын
I mean yeah, but most people ignore such info willingly
@Mechanized85
13 күн бұрын
@@WhatIsSanity yeah, I bet they're busy to send themselves to rush on front then die like fools.
@WhatIsSanity
12 күн бұрын
@@Mechanized85 Then angrily demand to know how they died as they reflexively spawn at the nearest depleted fob and do it again. I've totally never done that myself though. I'm a mature adult and always have been 😄
@CcSmokecC
10 күн бұрын
Insurgency Sandstorm has tips like this on their loading screens and people still gaggle fuck in doorways
@orc_gunslinger
9 күн бұрын
I like your point that the actual shape doesn’t matter, I think that’s a really great point. More important is maintaining good spacing and sectors of responsibility. I usually try to yell “spacing!” When i see my guys clumping up, which works pretty well. Sectors of responsibility are much harder to manage in squad though. I recently told a guy “you watch the 6!” And he didn’t understand.. same with watching the flank… then we got taken out by enfilade fire. I might try to designate sectors of fire earlier in staging and see if that helps.
@crizioclips
16 күн бұрын
You can be the most bad ass tactical solider on squad, but a bad team will always lose to a more coordinated team. Combined arms.
@famulanrevengeance3044
16 күн бұрын
Combined arms is a bit of an outdated tactic and honestly a meme- any type of verhicle supporting an infantry push is extremely exposed, unless it has a tight angle with distance, lots of cover and room to run away. The idea that tanks should support infantry is really old. It wasn't long before generals started making dedicated tank battalions. Now, it can be fantastic and farm a ton of kills, but usually due to how spread out enemies are and how they will avoid your LOS, you won't get much done. Maybe just help for a minute, 90 seconds and then GTFO to reposition before enemy armor barrels down on you from all angles. Everyone loves to bitch at the IFV / Tank to help them push, but if you're loading HE or shooting the MG, the enemy will call out your location and AT starts flying your way, one track and you could be done for, and lose 10, 15, 20 tickets just like that
@jmgonzales7701
15 күн бұрын
because there is always a Human element involved, its why i stopped playing Most milsims because a system that relies on players coming together that does not force them to work into a system will never work its kinda like the communism vs capitalism debate. Communism sounds good on paper but due to selfish interests of humans its hard to make it work. Just like squad many players especially new players don't know much about tactics, strategy, positioning and coordination. Their instinct is only go to said point aim at bad guy then shoot. Its also why you players scattered doing their own thing. Unless they create a mechanic that removes the "player" aspect nothing will fix milsims. Its why i rather play rts nowadays.
@crizioclips
15 күн бұрын
@@jmgonzales7701 I agree, thats why iplay EFT now.
@jmgonzales7701
15 күн бұрын
@@crizioclips good luck.
@taramaforhaikido7272
10 күн бұрын
Yet you can still have just two people turning the tide of an entire war. It can and does happen. The game has to appeal to both play styles. Because both tactics work. You can argue, but if something works and is effective then it works. Likewise both can fail too. It really depends on the situation. Either way "spec ops" missions get a lot of success. Since it does flanking and surprise more. It's also important to keep in mind that most people struggle with speaking up by default. Game mechanics can only go so far.
@tomas9820
5 күн бұрын
1:31 The infantry manual is not a step by step guide to soldiering but simply a building block for the individual. The application of tactic is great for the moment to which your timeline grants it's function.
@tclowe9280
5 күн бұрын
I don't play squad, but once upon a time, I was in the Army(US, I was a combat engineer), and I thought you did a great job of explaining the high level thought of these tactics. This made me want to look into this game, but I don't really do PvP games anymore. Thank you for the content.
@renegade619
9 күн бұрын
Games are generally about gunfighting. IRL shrapnel is the main casualty creator. It makes a big difference in how infantry moves across the battlefield and maintains dispersion.
@kotori87gaming89
13 күн бұрын
Formations are MUCH more important in high-realism sims like combat flight sims, warship sims, etc. I am a flight leader in IL2 Flying Circus, and I studied historical air combat formations. With proper study and practice, you can gain a huge advantage over your opponents. Especially in the larger campaign scenarios we play, with mission critical planes (bomber formation, photo recon, etc) that need escort, and several escorting squads around the "package". Same thing applies in naval combat. A properly set up line of battle will absolutely roflstomp a rabble of disorganized gamers. The corollary is that if there is not a demonstrable benefit to period-accurate formations and tactics, then your sim is not accurate enough. I'm looking at you, War Thunder and WoWS.
@quarreneverett4767
8 күн бұрын
War thunder does that and some i want pizza
@scottstottsgaming
2 күн бұрын
This is a well done video. I'm only half way through and I wanted to throw out as well that formations tend to have an expectation of the opposing force's behavior as well. In video games players know if they die they'll be back in 30 seconds and actually have more information about their threat than they had before. Dying isn't a risk it's possibly even a benefit. With that in mind trying to do many "real life" behaviors doesn't translate just because the enemy isn't behaving as a real person would.
@teamleader4747
10 күн бұрын
As a former army infantryman, good job on the vid dude! Great refresher and sends me back lol.
@screwstatists7324
8 күн бұрын
I served in the 15th MEU in ARMA. We are the most disciplined milsim gaming clan in the world. Beleive me, discipline pays off.
@epicduckeh6
5 күн бұрын
I'm a prior US infantry Marine, with some experience as a team leader in Afghanistan and a bit as a squad leader back in the States before I got out. The best game I had was playing with a full squad of military friends. We were Russians fighting US on one of the snowy maps, and we were getting our teeth kicked in on the first two points. Eventually the platoon commander left so I had to take up the position, and I got super sweaty with it. I planned out an entire defensive line for our third position, which was a town surrounded by a forest. I planned out the primary, alternative, and supplementary positions, calculated the most probable avenues of approach, and set up crew served weapons. We had a TOW in one of our primary positions watching the MSR, with a couple heavy crew serves in alternative and supplementary positions. I directed LP/OPs to be set up on adjacent hills, which actually allowed us ample reaction time to flanks. Complete with a mortar position way further back, it was very hard for the US forces to crack the town. Our TOW actually took out a few vics coming from the MSR, while our heavy crew serve in our tertiary position prevented air assault from units dropping in from helos. Our primary positions eventually got overran but I managed to get rolling artillery down on the forrest to prevent them from flowing in too much, which allowed my squads to retake the primary after falling back to the alternative positions. From there, we held out for the rest of the game and won, especially thanks to the supplementary positions I had built, because otherwise they would have enveloped us without issue. But to be honest we could have just as well lost that game if the rest of the squad leaders didn't listen to me. Thankfully they did what I told them to do for the most part. And despite winning, I definitely didn't like doing my real job in a video game that much, and I haven't SL'd or played platoon commander since. I just want to play for fun most of the time, like strapping IEDs to my friend's bike and having him drive into tanks.
@ttmranger1361
10 күн бұрын
This is really insightful and helpful for someone who used to just do the shape and not know the purpose. Thank you!
@chefrowlet
4 күн бұрын
it strikes me that this is kinda a similar school of thought as to why tanks (WWII especially) are "ranked" so differently irl versus in-game. Real battlefields have so many more factors that a real soldier needs to worry about, while a gamer using a mouse or controller to aim instead of their entire upper body simply doesn't. Crew ergonomics, supply lines, the quality of steel in the armor plating, welded versus cast versus riveted armor.... Fun fact, a study of American tank crews at the end of the war in Europe found that only about 1 in 6 shells were fired at hostile tanks (from Shermans specifically iirc). The vast majority of cannon rounds were fired at emplaced infantry and reinforced positions like bunkers. So the tankers not wanting to upgrade from the short 75 to the long 76 cannon wasn't just "old thing good, new thing bad", it was because the lower-velocity 75mm HE rounds had noticeably more explosive power in them (and weighed noticeably less) than the higher-velocity, higher-penetration 76mm shells. Whereas in War Thunder there is less than zero reason to opt for the 75mm over the long 76.
@lasagnakob9908
8 күн бұрын
I love how squad formations not working has nothing to do with gameplay, but ADHD being like "ok ok, just as we rehearsed, it must be perfect!"
@icarusgaming6269
16 күн бұрын
Wow, great job. I totally expected a standard breakdown of individual formations
@HaebyungDance
16 күн бұрын
Thanks man! If you want such a breakdown let me know and I might consider it.
@ltstaffel5323
16 күн бұрын
@@HaebyungDance A breakdown would be cool but this video was definitely the more important point to make first. I think getting to the spirit of what manuals are trying to communicate is more important than taking them at face value.
@Steve-737
16 күн бұрын
A breakdown would be Cool 😎
@icarusgaming6269
16 күн бұрын
@@HaebyungDance That would be a great lead in to this for my playlist since your script kind of assumes you know formations, and I want to be able to take a player from ignorant to expert by the end
@Kenionatus
16 күн бұрын
@@HaebyungDance Hm, it could be interesting if you could show how they specifically apply to Squad and can show examples. It also has a huge potential to be really boring. In this video, I really liked the example about the practical example of calling for a line formation shortly before contact. It felt achieavable, useful and... relatable?
@PaulGaither
8 күн бұрын
I used to play a lot of CoD4, MW2, Battlefield Bad Company2, BF3, and BF4. The idea of squads and the roles in formations as we crudly understood them helped my friends and me perform better than our opponents across our play experiences. Setting up defensive overlapping fields of fire and support with cohesion was often enough to make the difference.
@BrGuardian
13 күн бұрын
Quick share of what we do in my milsim community. Since the leaders had military training, everything got very smooth and flexible. So, we basically use only 3 forms, the line, column, and alternated column, since they are enough. Another thing that I was expecting here was references from the Ucranian war, and also giving more attention to the teamwork aspect that is required to make the sectors even work, you need to trust your teammates
@HaebyungDance
13 күн бұрын
I kept the discussion tight - there was definitely a lot more I could’ve covered but I focused on the mechanical side of things rather than the human aspect of that makes sense.
@Diamond-vp9je
16 күн бұрын
This problem exist in *every game* I played. No matter how I studied war theory you *absolutely* get sub par green players or ultra vetereans.
@NikovK
5 күн бұрын
My Arma 2 community played heavy PvP and used formations. There is no comparing the firepower of getting your squad into line face down in a roadside ditch before opening an ambush compared to gaggle blobs full of friendly fire and begging for one grenade. We had local voice and radio coordination and had to keep our squads together the hard way too.
@SM-xy6py
5 күн бұрын
Duuude! Thank you for making this video! Ive been suckin at video games for years because I'm tryin to be realistic about it. Meanwhile you've got some guy just runnin round knifing everybody, ankle shots kill and throwing knifes one shot etc. I havent found the right words to explain it bt this video more or less does it
@Monifans
16 күн бұрын
comp players: nooooo! you can't use real life tactics in squad! it doesn't work! me with my 9 man wedge formation:
@HaebyungDance
16 күн бұрын
Wedge go brrrrrr
@chief1721
10 күн бұрын
Very insightful. I totally payed only attention to the shape, when I played arma2. Now I know better and will use it properly in games. Big thanks.
@chiefgully9353
8 күн бұрын
20 years as a lawn dart. What you're saying about shapes is 100%. Wedge, colum, ranger line, all of it just a template modifying what is needed to move through terrain. Important things are 360 security situational awareness and most lethal direction of fire. In games, the necessity of a leader being in a certain spot is mute. For reasons discusses. Good work over all. Oh spacing... its a balancing act. I think this can relate to games as well. Irl 25m is the standard, this is a trade off between spread out enough not to get an entire fireteam fragged by a grenade and close enough to effectively support each other with fire. The space would likely change in game depending on aoe of what ever munition but still something to consoder. Over all good job. Disclaimer i dont play squad
@SomethingSpecial.
6 күн бұрын
This is so interesting to learn because in the Navy we do basically none of this.
@enriquecabrera2137
11 сағат бұрын
A videogame is a fantasy. No exhaustion, no fog, no adrenaline. Pinpoint presicion. Ability to take out an entire squad as a single member. Ability to see beyond the shooting range. The differences are endless.
@sen11k
2 күн бұрын
I always use a Diagonal Line formation, that works pretty well, I say "From the middle to the rear you choose where to look at, same thing for us here in the front, but we'll cover most of the front, so look at the sides back there, just don't cover the same area as your friend", damn, that really works...
@yngtadpole
4 сағат бұрын
I haven't played Squad but played Arma with a mil-sim group and an OIF veteran. I agree with everything said. The shape is secondary. Sectors for 360 awareness is the most important before contact. The formation also puts your MG and a-gunner in the most likely direction of contact so that, if fired upon it immediately can suppress the target. The formation also helps prevent friendly fire allowing maximum firepower on contact. But once bullets start firing, if holding a static position, your position and targets maybe adjusted by the squad leader. The only time spacing/shape is super important is during fireteam and squad rushes to maintain your lane/positioning and prevent getting shot in the back.
@jollyrogerexperience
9 күн бұрын
I have experience as a gamer since the 90's and in the real world since [ ]. Formations they teach you in the military don't work in real life, and are not used from your first day outside the wire, and on. Stacking on a door is about the only formal position, and that is done at the leisure of cover and at whatever dispersion the situation calls for. Teams entering rooms are singular, to double. Five men through the door stuff is for low threat targets in civilian sector. In reality, 5 men can clear a two-story house in under a minute, search it in 5, have detainees out in 10 min. The only thing you are doing in a combat situation is pulling security. That means 5 meter circle awareness around you at all times for tripwires, strange things. That means a somewhat pointed 25 meter in front of you. When moving you have your sector of security to watch for rooftops to drainage, and always aware of 5m in any direction around you for tripwires, things to trip on, other dangers. Situationally, most of it is a mental remembering of where you are and where you're going as well as where to exfiltrate. You rarely have a GPS and very likely one radio so you NEVER leave each other's sight. Every unit is different, and so are their success rates.
@HaebyungDance
9 күн бұрын
Some good experience speaking here it sounds like.
@Jakkaroo
3 күн бұрын
This was oddly comforting - you explained the basics well to support your later points, and ended up validating what I'd tried and failed to explain to my old ARMA group last year, who obsessed over perfecting the shape of a wedge or column while not understanding the utility or purpose (or the hazards) - forcing players to move in a strict dance for the sake of visual orderliness regardless of the terrain, the visibility or the proximity of enemy forces. It was hell. Humans have a dreadful habit of fixating of the aesthetic over the function. Military-themed clans in particular end up behaving far less like a military unit and far more like a cargo cult, assuming that if they copy what they think a military unit *looks like*, they'll automatically and magically reap the rewards in terms of victory.
@HaebyungDance
3 күн бұрын
And it’s a problem that materializes in real world militaries - especially in peacetime. Unsurprising that it’s common in milsim!
@fanrik9583
4 күн бұрын
First time viewer. When listening to the intro, I was sure you were going to be some keyboard ass warrior that had read a couple manuals. But then you delivered the exact same fundamental answer I had come up with. _Movement_ . In the Danish army there is a saying that roughly translates to "The plan works until first contact with the enemy". Once the bullets start flying over head, you don't think about geometric shapes, placing the correct part of your finger on the trigger, breathing patterns, specific shooting stances etc. etc. You just fight and 'lead from the hip'. Everything the military practices, it does to give the soldiers the best possible circumstances to face this moment. Even though you don't think about, say, trigger manipulation, in the heat of combat, it hopefully gives you a subconscious advantage. And even though you've already forgotten the formation you were in 2 seconds ago, it hopefully provides you with clear line of sight to the enemy.
@HaebyungDance
4 күн бұрын
Yeah “No plan survives contact with the enemy” is how I’ve heard that saying. They say you fall to your level of training when in combat. So having as much ingrained you as possible means that you will draw from it as you deal with the chaos.
@nosajimiki5885
4 күн бұрын
One last function of Infantry formations that this video overlooks is concentration of force. In pretty much any FPS whether it be a relatively realistic game like Squad or highly unrealistic like MechWarrior, teams that don't use formations tend to scatter out in every possible direction. When such a team goes up against a team that sticks together, they tend to find themselves individually outnumbered and easily picked off.
@MG-hx3ym
9 күн бұрын
There’s a psychological component as well. In live combat there is 1. Fear and paranoia or in general the “fog of war” and 2. There is no “score.” You survive or you don’t. In games the fog of war is simulated and the guy eating the g-fuel powder is only getting a slight bump in adrenaline with no complimenting physical activity. Also, there are specified roles in formation besides the team or squad leader. The guy in the back should be turning around to check the 6 every 15 seconds or so. The comms guy has a spot. He can be the one to set markers, call in support etc. The machine gunner and assistant gunners are together. On and on. In games everyone does everything because you’re rewarded for your individual performance regardless of if your entire team died or not. In COD if my squad dies, but I win then everyone gets credit.
@peka2478
6 күн бұрын
"people caring most about the shape" hit me like a brick, because my first instant thought was "of course, that's what it - OH, wait, actually...." xD
@rsgreek
15 күн бұрын
U’ve missed some important thing about formations: it’s practice! With the same people, so everyone are on the same page, that each one can substitute each other on diff roles(in my country it’s used numbers in FT: FTL-1, MG-2, Grenadier-3, rifleman/medic/marksman-4 and even 5). Also Formations were designed(according to field manuals) to help manoeuvre inside the FT(like u’ve got contact front so n1 and n2 sets a base of fire so that n3 and n4 can maneuvre to get a better or flanking position and then they will set a base of fire so n1 and n2 can move out of fire to a better position). But probably that’s what you mean under mobility/control
@HaebyungDance
15 күн бұрын
Yeah good points! I didn’t want to get deep into the nitty gritty though. What country are you from?
@rsgreek
15 күн бұрын
@@HaebyungDance Ukraine ;)
@rsgreek
15 күн бұрын
@@HaebyungDance my point was: formations in video games are mostly useless because it’s hard to show some results with the “random guys” everytime, even within same clan/team. So people who tried to use formations failed and made wrong conclusion: “formations not working”.
@HaebyungDance
15 күн бұрын
Yeah and that’s part of what I meant when I said it’s a training issue in the video. Ideally you want the same guys, but even just a common doctrine can help, which we don’t have in Squad. In Korea, we have the same numbered system 1-5, with 5-man teams.
@hckr_-gh7se
11 күн бұрын
man i feel so vindicated right now - been saying for a while that the main difficulty in being a SL or PL is lack of discipline (people just ignoring your orders) and lack of training (people can't execute more advanced plans). and when your orders dont get results, cohesion suffers, which compounds the effect.
@windwalker5765
11 күн бұрын
Even in a game/server where players often work together, the biggest problem is that suppression doesn't really work in games. Players behind a keyboard aren't afraid they'll die, so they are far more aggressive than any real soldiers would be. And if suppression doesn't work, fire and maneuver doesn't work, and that's the cornerstone of small unit tactics.
@123Voynich
10 күн бұрын
One day the robots will fight like the average cod player
@Cha-Khia
5 күн бұрын
While it's a different game, my buddies and I while playing Helldivers 2 use a limited degree of small team tactics, such as "bounding overwatch" (also called leapfrogging), and target designation for specific players to aim for. My friends and I already know that using anything more advanced won't really translate well into a video game, but a lot of small team tactics works great in games.
@mason4354
7 күн бұрын
I've noticed in Helldivers we sometimes organically form a line or column and every once in a while a wedge. No one does it on purpose but i think everyone is worred about getting shot in the back so they avoid their team mates line of fire
@mavm7473
9 күн бұрын
Excellent video idea and very well executed! This is something that has long been discussed in my clan and has been sadly discouraged by the leaders… I am a military nerd and hate to log in to the game and just play it mindlessly
@ExtraRice365
11 күн бұрын
It seems like if formations were used in real life the same way their misused in video games, the consequences would be similar. I appreciate your analysis, as someone with a background in videogames I feel that your videos will help me shed some bad habits when I am actually learning SUT in real life. (Currently in the Green Beret pipeline as an 18X)
@HaebyungDance
11 күн бұрын
Good hunting in the X-ray pipeline.
@bakenbeans420
9 күн бұрын
The same people who say real life tactics are useless, are the same people who will say that Light infantry factions are useless, that combined arms factions are useless, or building fortified fobs is useless. They just straight up don't know what they are doing, or talking about, and the times they tried using those things, they failed because they didn't know what they were doing. And honestly, often times, these very same people will treat you or I, like were stupid for thinking deeper about these things, instead of just surface level ignorance. I have a HUGE gripe with the way 99% of people place barbed wire. They always use it the exact opposite way it should be used, then when it doesn't work out, well, they just determine that the problem is the asset, and not their own skill or placement of said asset. People always use barbed wire to trap their own team into a tiny 50 meter by 5 meter area, and thatsd NOt what barbed wire is meant to be used for. Your supposed to place it far out away from your own fortified positions, use it to create a exterior defensive perimeter, as well use it to create avenues of approach for the enemy, covered by fields of fire. Use it to create choke points. Instead, most of the time, people use it to create choke points for their own fucking team, they trap everyone inside, then everyone gets mortared and the point gets capped. I have so many gripes with the way people play this game. Like, it's one of the most realistic FPS's out there, and people choose to treat it and play it like its COD or Battlefield. I know that's an overused comparison, but its just true.
@EzekielDeLaCroix
16 күн бұрын
LMAO formations are great in principle. I actually made formations work in Minecraft. You just have to understand it's maximizing killpower and reducing your own vulnerabilities. And most importantly, when commanding a group of people - getting them to move together, but it does need drill in order to remove the autism and ADHD players naturally have of free movement. But when they start winning - whoo boy it's a drug.
@HaebyungDance
16 күн бұрын
Precisely!
@EzekielDeLaCroix
16 күн бұрын
@@HaebyungDance "Why do we use a line formation, captain?" "It's so you r-words won't hit each other when you start jump shooting and blob up. You're creating a wide crossfire. It's common sense."
@jmgonzales7701
15 күн бұрын
How did you make formations work in Minecraft?
@jmgonzales7701
15 күн бұрын
because there is always a Human element involved, its why i stopped playing Most milsims because a system that relies on players coming together that does not force them to work into a system will never work its kinda like the communism vs capitalism debate. Communism sounds good on paper but due to selfish interests of humans its hard to make it work. Just like squad many players especially new players don't know much about tactics, strategy, positioning and coordination. Their instinct is only go to said point aim at bad guy then shoot. Its also why you players scattered doing their own thing. Unless they create a mechanic that removes the "player" aspect nothing will fix milsims. Its why i rather play rts nowadays.
@EzekielDeLaCroix
15 күн бұрын
@@jmgonzales7701 The principle and logic is this: maintain damage superiority over your opponent and bear more localized numbers against them. An example is long ranged bow battles. Players tend to clump up into blobs. So, not only do they become bigger targets for crossfires, but they also usually hit their own teammates. A line formation brings to bear all ranged damage by expanding your field of fire whilst also reducing your friendly fire. Even a line formation can blunt a melee charge because of a steady stream of damage and force them to break apart their charge, thus separating them from each other and allowing your guys to focus on the smaller or weaker detachments who are momentarily without help from their teammates. Though not always decisive, these incremental advantages of getting more damage off yields a consistent positional advantage. In simple words: More of my guys are fighting. Your guys are just getting hurt and doing nothing.
@flashtirade
12 күн бұрын
11:10 I'm reminded of some Space Marine chapters blindly following the Codex Astartes, even when the information held within is significantly out of date or even known to the enemy (and subsequently used against them)
@HaebyungDance
12 күн бұрын
And it happens in real militaries too
@minero-de-sal
5 күн бұрын
A lot of these formations are used when traveling in an area with a possible likelihood of enemy contact. In this type of terrain under contact you’d likely be doing some sort of bounding overwatch which would likely work in this game if your team is disciplined enough to do it. The whole point of the wedge formation is to keep control of your guys and balance out the firepower in every direction since you don’t know where the enemy will attack from yet. Once the bullets start flying no one uses the wedge.
@tylerbryanhead
11 күн бұрын
A big problem with trying to use formations is players dont have the built in respect for their leadership in the game. In the Army, infantry team/squad leaders can and will smoke their guys for minor mistakes, and if the team fails an exercise they get recocked over and over until they get it right, which is annoying so people tend to try to get it right. If leaders fail in their role they get replaced and will have a hard time earning the trust of their leadership again. If leadership is good you also spend a few hours every day doing classes and running drills focusing on the nuances, like footwork, squad and team SOP, hand signals, various reports, react to contact, everything. The worst that can happen fucking up in a video game is dying, or maybe people don't want to play with you. There has to be actual respect and consequences for failure for command and control to do its job.
@HazopGaze
13 күн бұрын
Great video! I love both high level overviews as well as in depth analysis of subjects like this! The lack of physical feedback to the environment is a big part of my struggles in any game, be it Arma or Halo. I can't feel the wall beside me or the tap of an ally on my shoulder, which really messes with maintaining formations, as well as staying secure in situations where concealment and-or cover is awkward. It's rough in CQB scenarios as well because the claustrophobic environment can have an enormous impact in effective movement and positioning that can't be felt out naturally. I have a feeling this plays a pretty big role in how formations are viewed, even if it's not recognized as such.
@HaebyungDance
13 күн бұрын
Totally agree. Only so much a screen and speakers can do.
@JakeSnake1948
10 күн бұрын
I think a lot of it is in most video games, you have little to nothing to actually lose if you die. When I'm playing cod, it makes no difference beyond fun and scoreboard how I do in a match. However, in Ghosts of Tabor, it's not only VR which amplifies the immersion, when you die, it's lights out instantly, and you lose everything you had. Besides the few starter guns and some food/water, everything you get you have to find yourself, or buy with money earned from other found items you don't want or need. You dread every corner that could leave you dead in the blink of an eye.
@mazzars1772
9 күн бұрын
Probably the biggest factor that is misunderstood in formations is the actual spacing between them. A section moving through an area can be spread out sometimes with 15 - 30 metre spacing between each person.
@JustShotsForMeh
8 күн бұрын
My take: 1. Almost all FPS I have ever played are faster than real life, reloading, sprinting, even aiming down sights is faster, can you achieve such speeds in real life? Yes, is it practical? No. 2. Talk about practicality, sprinting everywhere is not practical, bulging your veins out to do sudden actions all the time is not practical, the fatigue of your gear, actual combat scenario, and stress are tiring enough already. 3. Skill disparity, simple as, you only feel "Tied down" to somebody you can't trust, and that is probably the most plausible reason. Now time to watch your video Chief.
@bakenbeans420
9 күн бұрын
I think real world tactics can work just fine. The real problem is that people just suck at Squad. They rush it. They sprint everywhere, especially around particularly dangerous corners. They dont keep their gun up, because they are sprinting, so then they cant react quickly enough when they do come face to face with an enemy. Just like in real life, in Squad, moving is how you get spotted. The faster you move, the easier you are to spot to the human eye. The more you move, the more you will be spotted first, and gunned down first. Another thing, people are busy sprinting, so they arent keeping their head on a swivel. Its way harder to spot a stationary target, or even another moving target, when you are moving, and your screen is bouncing up and down. This results in you being gunned down first. IN squad, you should really only sprint when its necessary, like crossing a road, an large open area, or trying to move to cover while being engaged, etc etc etc. This maximizes the time that you keep your gun up, and head on swivel, it will make you have better reaction times, and you will die less, spot the enemy first more. Formations are a whole different story, but everything I said still applies to that. Poeple can know the formations but they stil dont know to keep their gun up, or head on a swivel, so its pointless.
@Shnimberz
5 күн бұрын
Such a cool video!! I would love to watch one that goes into more detail. I feel like this was just an intro.
@bencurnell9538
16 күн бұрын
Great video man, I've always sort of had this same perspective but you put in into words so effectively. Keep it up!
@HaebyungDance
15 күн бұрын
Thanks man!
@hannibalkills1214
12 күн бұрын
Understandably it's a completely different setting and less complex to perform, but I love how in War of Rights it's very easy for an officer to coordinate nearly 50+ players into immediately getting into a line formation after marching in column. Primarily perhaps because of the nature of the war and the inherent incentives of the game mechanics.
@hampdog5716
10 күн бұрын
Stay together and fight together. That’s all you need to do, ultimately.
@AxaFin
5 күн бұрын
after I returned from the army I was able to use the formations for a few months but the insane pace of Squad makes them almost useless. Nowadays I think best SL method is to be a taskmaster for the fireteams and set objectives for each and respond to the information you get from the squad members. Nowadays I only use line when entering blind into forests near enemy objectives since it naturally gives everyone better situational awareness and is very simple to execute on people who haven't got real world experience.
@steguyer
3 күн бұрын
I think formations work in the real world when most of your time is spent walking and patrolling. When there is no immediate danger you can have discipline, situational awareness, and communication. Once the fighting starts I feel like formations usually breakdown to find cover and create fields of fire. In most mil sims, there is not enough time to have formations. You are usually engaging other players in under a minute. I've seen some long form lets plays of Arma where people maintain formations and do patrols. But once the shooting starts everyone spreads out.
@joncrow3228
6 күн бұрын
Another MAJOR difference between reality and game is that an infantry squad on foot usually only has 1 long range radio. Meaning the squad leader has to get information about the larger tactical situation relayed through the “radio man”. Given that BOTH ENDS of this conversation likely go through a radio man, it must remain very simple and direct. Nuance would get lost in translation. This changes once the unit mounts up into vehicles, as they should all have radios. The NEW challenge becomes telling the driver where/when to turn fast enough to not get lost. Lead vehicle commander must read and understand the map AT LEAST as fast as the vehicle is moving. While operating the radio both UP (to higher levels) and DOWN (to the vehicles in their unit), looking out for threats, and trying to anticipate their commander’s next action based on stated intent and developing tactical situation. Vehicle design often tries to help manage this task overload, but only the tasks of watching for threats and covering the vehicles sector of fire can realistically be delegated.
@dragondude6984
8 күн бұрын
Military tactics in games are needed. Everyone decides to run off and do their own things. Especially in games like planetside 2 in which the map is very large and people can stray from the capture objectives.
@lkaseru
9 күн бұрын
Never played this game, but the general principles for fps games stands- games aren't real life, they has many differences big and small and therefore copy-pasting of tactics can't work, but that doesn't mean that tactics or formations in general can't work, they just need to be heavily adapted or developed from grounds up.
@Safis100
6 күн бұрын
My main gripe with formations in milsim games like Squad, arma, etc is a multitude of factors: 1: Tactics doesn't work in games where the AI is pretty accurate, and where vehicles are accessible, and can easily show up at any point to rock a infantry squad. Along with them able to coordinate with elements who can see you from a mile away, therefore being able to kill you pretty fast. 2: Vehicles are loud as fuck, and depending on the size, you can hear from a distance, which that you can get slapped by it, because people don't understand how to communicate via radio and via vocal proximity because they lack the ability to recognize that they are playing effectively a dangerous game by mic spamming on radio by useless chatter. 3: Formations are easily vulnerable to skirmisher lances and sniper squads who don't abide by such limitations, as they like to use bushes, tree branches, buildings with hard to see window silhouttes, etc where they can see you from a mile away while you can't see them.
@datboi_gee
3 күн бұрын
I've been certain that formations are absolutely critical at high level play in FPS games since at least Halo 2. The best teams had positional strategies for each map that were so effective that it became near impossible to break their control once they set up. And you can see this behavior again and again throughout time in different games. Of course positional superiority is effective in a shooter. It's just that traditionally, there isn't much movement associated with these formations. They're typically about locking areas down and controlling space, not breaking through it.
@tomraineofmagigor3499
11 күн бұрын
One thing to keep in mind in a video game if you’re hit that doesn’t hinder you as much as it does in real like. You could take a couple hits and machine guns don't just rip through targets. You can have a group playing follow the leader then even if people take a few hits they can move for cover
@horatiohornblower3757
6 күн бұрын
My initial thought is that formations work in real life because maximizing firepower in a direction severely limits the combat effectiveness of the enemy. While in video games, people generally don't care if they are taking fire. If bullets are whizzing all around you in real life, almost every single person in your unit will keep their heads down. In a video game, they will jump out and try and quick scope while soaking up 10 bullets directly in the chest then get back in to cover and "plate up".
@billrich9722
12 күн бұрын
This is a simple answer. People in real world military situations have time and a drive to practice this stuff to the point they dont' have to think too much about it. People who play video games probably aren't the same people who are willing to practice formations. Plus, formations are always more of a suggestion than fact. Nobody expects precise spacing and a perfect V to the formation. Addendum My brother and I used some very basic formations when playing through the first three or four HALO games. We really put them into effect for the extensive hallway fighting. I was... not always the best older brother, so I rather brutishly enforced my ways with him. Basically, we pick a side of the hall and stay on it. We don't juke back-and-forth like the wiggly end of a snake, thereby avoiding a lot of friendly fire. We call our grenades (ironically, this has been the hardest part with any group I'm part of). We move up together, calling when we move. Finally, we start with the easy kills and work our way up. Years later, I apologized for being such a tyrant to him. He confessed that, after playing with me and beating the game together, he rather appreciated the tactics we established. It got to the point that he couldn't enjoy playing with his other friends because they would just run in without supporting each other. All the while, he would be moving from cover to cover taking out easy kills and jumping on opportunities. He's still quite the brawler in a fight but we work very well together in games even now.
@crimsonfoxonusae4472
3 күн бұрын
I think the best way i saw formations used was in Foxhole, a top down MMO shooter. When they're sneaking through enemy lines, Players will actually use formations covering each other's flanks until they hear vehicles or if they get spotted that's when the formation quickly shifts to adapt to the developing situation. From the congo line point taker getting shot having the congo line take a more front heavy formation to a wedge formation spreading out mortars starts to fly
@Nerthos
Күн бұрын
The great differences between real life and videogames are: 1- Fear. Real combat tactics are built around fighting humans who fear death and injury. Videogame combatants don't have those. The opium wars showed how tactics crumble when fighting fearless enemies that feel no pain. If we had to fight that kind of enemy, we'd use artillery and firebombing instead of infantry. 2- Discipline. The lack of fear or consequence means players will just rush and seek out any chance of combat. This is the exact opposite to real life combat. RL tactics have to be adjusted to compensate those two differences in world rules before they'll be effective.
@humpteedumptee8629
9 күн бұрын
Fear and self preservation aside. in a limited space map you can have everyone gunned down or taken out by one grenade. Outside of run clearing irl formations have people standing 50 plus yards apart (how far you need to be to not all get taken out with a grenade, but still close enough to yell at each other ). In most games it’s simply not possible to have real formations. The only point of a formation is to be in the best position if ambushed given your terrain. Once you make contact you will basically always get as many guns on line as possible and arrange who’s flanking.
@yksnidog
6 күн бұрын
Nice one. What I missed was ammunition exchange, entering objects, mission objectives like escort and large scale timings. But beside these this video was a good one and maybe it would also have been to long otherwise. Most people can only really concentrate up to 20-26 Minutes, with a median around 24 minutes.
@HaebyungDance
6 күн бұрын
Yeah I had to keep it focused. There’s an infinite number of things I could’ve covered but ultimately wanted to keep it as relevant as possible to gameplay as well. Thanks for the comment.
@jackiehollow6611
14 күн бұрын
This is my formula for taking real 11b stuff and turning it into gamer soup: It relies on one strict rule, the ONLY strict rule of this strategy really. FireTeam members must always make an effort to remain within local voip range of their FTL and utilize local VOIP as their primary communication method. In doing this, SL now has open comms and relatively simple control over only 2 dudes outside his Alpha team. You can treat it like an RTS at this point and simply drop points on the map for dudes to walk towards or shoot at. Some more structure below. Command and controll team: Alpha-SL, Medic, Spare shooter Fire teams: Charlie - lmg team Bravo - AT team holding structure: C/B form the base of a triangle with 50m+/- between them, with Alpha directly between them but regressed off the front line. Alpha sets and defends the rally with the medic being assigned on QRF. SL and bodyguard do not assault without good cause as staying with rally and reorganizing troops on spawn is more valuable. movement structure: Send non Alpha fireteam as scout, 50-100 m ahead, with Alpha command and control in the center and the last fireteam 50 meters behind Alpha. If scouts take fire, halt advance and create holding structure. I promise this will allow you to pull off some pretty complex strategies while also not blowing your gasket at the information overload.
@Murderface666
13 күн бұрын
The problem can be summed up in just one two sentences: 1. There's no fear of serious injury or death. 2. Running around upright is a great way to get shot.
@cernanoliveros3407
10 күн бұрын
In games everyone is connected thru a common chat/voice channel. In real life while there may be individual radios in a squad level action in some formations its harder to control and manuever esp during fubar situations
@johnmaco
7 күн бұрын
I wish there were more formations in videogames in general. Yes, it's a challenge to make them actually viable or useful, but it's possible.
@originalpastaman5470
10 күн бұрын
I think the biggest aspect of real world tactics that can be applied to games like Squad, especially with random players, is the tard wrangling aspects of troop leading. You have either a solid NCO or officer corps to fill in the leadership positions who understand the basics of what is actually going on and conduct maneuver on that level (squad leaders and platoon leaders and up) and then simply tell their soldiers basic barking orders. Trying to get a nine man squad of random players to do something as basic as bounding overwatch or travelling overwatch is near impossible. But coordinating a flanking attack with your entire squad doing the flank and a whole other squad in support on an SL to SL level. That makes things much easier. tl;dr intra-squad: keep it simple. inter-squad: m a n e u v e r
@Moley1Moleo
Күн бұрын
Some of these principles are valuable in other games too. Some thing similar to "Sectors of responsibilility", I think, can be especially helpful. In Warframe, power is asymetirical in two ways: player characters are often 100s of times stronger than enemies, and each player character has very different forms of power, moreso than just a different weapon. Sometimes you need to defend multiple objectives, and assigning people to rotate through objectyives in some pattern that maximises that strength can help. And in Valorant, there is a concept sometimes called the 'chain', whereby you can cover the limited entry-points of the map, and thus be sure that some area of the map is safe. In Warframe, the 'responisiblity' is not to cover some spatial area, but objective based abnd overlapping. And in Valorant, is it highly geometrical, since the dense environments have highly strict options for traversing the map. Despite these difference to real-life, sharing responibility (and communicating if/when you need help or give up something) can be very useful.
@Evirthewarrior
4 күн бұрын
My first thought was "it is probably training because they do not know the why behind the formations", then later on he said it. Formations are very METT-T dependent but gamers probably have a clue as to what METT-T even means. (The C is rarely considered at all in video games, so I didn't add it)
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