The city I live in, Cagayan de Oro Mindanao Philippines, has around 728,000 people. The subdivision in which I live is an example of how unlikely it is to ever be able to estimate population size in a particular location. I'm usually the only occupant in my house. Some houses have five to eight people in them. Then, there are literally dozens of unoccupied houses. The Philippines is relatively good for comparison of family sizes, because use of contraception is extremely rare. My Filipina wife had seven daughters with her first husband. She had her first baby at 17, and her last one at 31. After that, she had effectively no relationship with her errant husband. Let's just say that I feel most families then would have been very large compared with those today.
@annepoitrineau5650
3 ай бұрын
Brilliant, looking forward to a follow up!
@jeanettewaverly2590
3 ай бұрын
Considerable work on population estimates has been done with data from Ancestral Puebloan sites in the American Southwest.
@joelledurben3799
3 ай бұрын
Worth comparing with medieval village occupation in England, where we have more data, and can see changes with tech advances, plague, politics, etc.
@alextyler9912
3 ай бұрын
Movies create a misconception that streets are busy. Whenever there's a street shoot, there's loads of people walking around to imply a busy-ness. Great show guys.
@helenamcginty4920
3 ай бұрын
You forgot to mention the 2 men carrying a sheet of glass 😂
@pud4272
3 ай бұрын
Dont then jump to the conclusion that streets are never busy! They are built for a reason. Continued, consistent usage!
@jonkayl9416
3 ай бұрын
Love you guys. Keep making videos!
@774Rob
3 ай бұрын
I wonder whether you would leave a derelict building intact? Any timber in those buildings would have been robbed out at the first opportunity surely? Also why would you build a new house on the edge of town, further away than you need to be, when there is a ready made pile of building materials just round the corner from your mums house?
@Heterogeneity
3 ай бұрын
We humans still do this all the time. We leave derelict structures behind to build new dwellings half a mile down the road rather than fixing existing ones, especially when they're closer to Mum. Rather live in the next town than have her in walking distance.
@PeachysMom
3 ай бұрын
It depends on what resources are needed and available.
@paulapridy6804
3 ай бұрын
Poor Rupert and those constant sniffles. Sounds a bit worse🙁
@MarkVrem
3 ай бұрын
makes sense, plus people like big round numbers like 10,000. Grabs headlines.
@rk-uy9px
2 ай бұрын
Hey, i just wish you could have some cultural anthropology in the mix. Some stuff is just basic ethnocentric thought, waste of time. Keep it up boys
@EmilNicolaiePerhinschi
3 ай бұрын
cohesion: you can create cohesion through mandatory exogamy, if all in your village are your cousins and you're not allowed to marry them, and you have to find mates in the village on the next hill you're less likely to fight the neighbours
@substitutebodhisattva
3 ай бұрын
The most fundamental idea of the scientific method is that every scientific statement made, has a question mark at the end. Science works with a premise, not a conclusion. Always remembered is that a rule is useful, until you encounter the exception. When science is controlled with selective financing, it is rife with premature conclusions. To stand on the shoulders of giants specifically means to reach higher. Too often in various scientific disciplines, one encounters forces which hold them back, so as not so supersede the work of 'respected men'. Work given a period, rather than a question mark, as would be proper. How to know when Capitalism has escaped it's bounds? When science is for sale.
@substitutebodhisattva
3 ай бұрын
As regards the info addressed in the video: Obvious unifying symbolism with monumental constructions the world over are basically ignored when trying to find a basic picture of the world during that period, so I fail to see how an image that will hold up can be achieved. As long as we are going to try to find a way to cram our understanding into the mental image created in the 1800s, I foresee failure and wasted time. The marks of repeated cataclysm are all over our planet, yet science still sees a continuous, slow developmental period. The end of the Younger Dryas was only the first of cataclysmic periods. 'Science' see none. Still just a mountain of random evidence to 'science'. Maybe we shouldn't have a scientific edifice. Maybe science should judge itself, through the peer review process without meddling hands to 'guide' 'advancement'.
@Tipi_Dan
3 ай бұрын
Stone Age ghost towns. They were a thing. We can only dream about Neanderthal pirates.
@brownnoise357
3 ай бұрын
So many things just aren’t taken into account for population Cycles, and someone below mentioned Pompeii which had been a highly populated area, such that when a local funded a Religious Ceremony called a Games, a Timber Stand was constructed for viewers of the ceremonies which included gladiatorial ritual Human Sacrifice fighting so the people of Pompeii would receive a blessing from the gods. But the Timber Stands collapsed, killing over thirty thousand people! All documented, but there was no mention of the number of people who were injured. Look at the numbers of people killed in major and minor battles for Rome, and the population numbers to enable the number of combatants and casualties listed, yet archeological interpretations are suggesting that highly educated people of the time, were incapable of accurately Counting? Then there is the issue of no significance being given to the Cycles of Diseases, and major Cycles of once per Century arrivals. Plus from personal experience, this village I was a child in, in the 1950’s, and my father was a Station Master here at the time, we sat down and added up all of the businesses here at the time, and came to the total of 38, but we had forgotten the Fishmonger, so there had been 39. My parents returned here when dad retired, and took on running the Village Shop, which was the last one to make a profit large enough to keep going. At the time, there were still a good number of competitive wholesalers, the most important of which was Nurdin & Peacock. The visiting Sales Rep for Birds Eye frozen foods got a flea in her ear for only offering us a 1% discount for a very large frozen food order - margin too low to even cover the freezer running costs. Their products purchased from Nurdin & Peacock had a discount of between 12% and 15% on the Retail Price. At the time, Our shop could beat Tesco on pricing with really good quality products. Then fixed costs like Business Rates, water, and electricity started ricketing up, and the competitive wholesalers rapidly vanished with the result today that there is one full rime agricultural machinery and fuel distributor business employing a few people, one part time animal feeds seller, and one Pub left that’s hanging on by its fingernails, because nobody in enough numbers can afford to go to a pub that is selling chronically overpriced drinks, that cost pounds instead of pennies. It’s the same Economic Wasteland right across Britain. Travel right across the European Union like I have, and everywhere you go,if you have the eyes to see, you’ll see the same Economic Wasteland. Even in France and Germany. Down in the Eiffel, just north of Luxembourg, the roads are really in a bad way.on leaving the Bikertreff site heading to Hungary, I turned left on a junction and had to ride around a pothole so big and deep that an articulated lorry had fallen into it before I got there thank god, as if not, it was full of water, and likely would have ridden straight into it. So did our Neolithic ancestors suffer from having the same insane Socialist Barking Mad Satanic Cult Worshipping Nutters Wrecking their lives just like we are suffering from today ? Yep it sure seems that way doesn’t it, once you understand what Socialism Really is, you realise that it has been afflicting Humanity since at least the Bloody Stone Age ! It’s all about the Power and Property Grab of the Lawless State Assumption of the Proven Lie and Despotic Tyranny of Divine Right. Thomas Hobbes Philosophy in other words. Which was relaunched for the Satan Worshipping Human Sacrificing Khazarian Mafia Death Cult, by the Fake Jew Cult Member Karl Marx - who dedicated his works to Satan. 🤔 Bob.😡🌟🌟🌟❤️
@Patrick-kq9fy
3 ай бұрын
How did pre-pottery Neolithic in Anatolia manage human waste? Where did they go poo? They literally did not have a pot to piss in!?
@helenamcginty4920
3 ай бұрын
I have the same thought about rural Spain up to 30 years ago. My 76 yr old friend grew up in the village. They had no running water or electricity in the houses. Not even an oven. The old stand pipes in the streets still function but the water isnt potable. I havent remembered to ask her how they managed. I assume in the countryside things were easier to arrange.
@hetrodoxlysonov-wh9oo
3 ай бұрын
In England they went in a wooden box with a seat on top, next to it was another box with dry soil in it this was sprinkled on top, when nearly full this was spread on fields as fertilizer.
@Patrick-kq9fy
3 ай бұрын
@@hetrodoxlysonov-wh9oo yes... but... That was not 12,000 years ago in Turkey...
@hetrodoxlysonov-wh9oo
3 ай бұрын
@@Patrick-kq9fy Sorry I didn't realize I'd not stated where it was, I was just throwing ideas about, if you want a precise answer you'll need to ask a 12,000 year old Turk.
@PeachysMom
3 ай бұрын
They probably had something similar to outhouses
@ltlwlwl5057
3 ай бұрын
🤠
@marlou169
3 ай бұрын
I really don’t get the fuzz about these numbers take the high and low count and middle it 🙄 People gather for feasts and settlements don’t need to be inhabited all of the year. The way of living interests me more than the number of the living...
@warrenbooth2103
3 ай бұрын
Maybe guess timation.
@oscargranda5385
3 ай бұрын
Igual ....para ser paleolítico ..algunos miles es mucha gente.....
@philipbutler6608
3 ай бұрын
Another assumption is that every large building is spiritual even when there is a lack of burials. Buildings without human remains are more likely dwellings. Until Martin Luther most people were buried in or near the place of worship.
@PeachysMom
3 ай бұрын
What happened after Martin Luther, weren’t churchyard burials still customary for the average people?
@philipbutler6608
3 ай бұрын
@@PeachysMom you have graveyards not associated with churches or temples. Where people just put the dead and never worship overly long or even scatter ashes to the wind. So my point is a large place like Gobekli Tepe without a lot of Burials is more likely a living space or a palace than a church.
@chrisbricky7331
3 ай бұрын
Classic example of gate keeping by the powers that be who control archaeology and most of the science journals. You know the same people that run the WEF and own Canada, Australia, New Zealand, overthrew Ukraine and installed puppet Zelensky, oh and run the EU too. Plus they nominate themselves for nobel prizes that only push their woke agenda. Geologists: 'The sphinx enclosure is older than you dated it by at least 10,000 years' Gatekeepers: It can't be that old, there are no dated civilizations to that time. Aha! Archaeologists: 'Now that we have dated Gobekli Tepes and all the other Tepes and proved there was a massive civilization near to Egypt at the time the Sphinx was probably built. What proof do you have for the dates of the pyramids and the sphinx? Nothing? Oh a graffitti found by an 1800's fraudster who was there and went into the same place hundreds of others had already been and had not seen it. Yep, golden. Gatekeepers: 'But the Tepes civilization isn't that big, so it doesn't count and we are redating it using our top secret you can't see computer model, instead of actual scientific tests. Trust us, you don't need to see how our system works, how our computer models work or even the data we use. Trust us. But your work is not scientific and we need to adjust it so it fits our narrative.' I am all for science. But what we have here is one scientist not liking how another scientist guestimated. He things his guestamation will be better. Because he says so using a bunch of manipulated graphs and statistics. Because we know how trustworthy those are. Chris
@kerolokerokerolo
3 ай бұрын
you forgot the tinfoil hat
@Localfriendlyanarchist
3 ай бұрын
Yeah that's right. Because that's exactly how Scientific Debate works.
@chrisbricky7331
3 ай бұрын
Funny for a debate you have to have a free flow of information from all sides. Instead you have gatekeeping at the scientific journal level controlled by a few people that censor anyone that disagrees with them. This is a proven fact since the climategate emails were leaked by a whistleblower at the GRU at East Anglia. Those emails showed so called scientists were abusing the peer review system by peer reviewing colleagues work and banning and blacklisting the work of anyone that disagreed with them. With full knowledge of the scientific and nature journals and the nobel society. In their own words they admitted gate keeping. They admitted they weren't doing science. They admitted they faked data and used a specific program to get the results they needed for the funding they were receiving. So spare me the science. You know archaeology is not an actual science, right? Its an applied guessing game based on what we know. And what we know is damn little but mostly we keep getting it wrong. Especially about dates. The longer we look and the more the science for dating catches up the older everything gets. Then we get gatekeepers coming along attempting to lessen the magnitude of the finds or down right discredit them. And useful idiots parroting it in the media and on social media. Useful attack bots who come in and say a single line, acting like that one little snippet was powerful. Thank god you are doing this on a system like KZitem that rewards gatekeepers and helps them and uses attack bots and bot swarms for public opinion. But hey, science.
@PeachysMom
3 ай бұрын
Holy wow! Get back on your meds
@chrisbricky7331
3 ай бұрын
A made up account and not even a real person. Your debate skills are epic. Wait, you just insulted me. That breaks the rules of KZitem. Perhaps you should follow the rules and actually debate instead of just using insults. When you use an insult during a debate it means you have nothing to add to the topic and have given up. Which usually means a severe lack of wit or you have no idea what the topic is and cannot respond in an intelligent manner. Which is ok, because by definition 50% of all people are below average intelligence and believe everything they are spoonfed and have no ability whatsoever to put two sentences together let alone defend or debate a topic. Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time. :)
@WickedFelina
3 ай бұрын
ONE thousand NOT 10 THOUSAND? Why, YOU have perpetuated a SHAM kind Sirs and I demand, recompense! One of those purple plastic cell phone covers with your logo will do just fine! It might not fit my android, however, I do have a HAMMER, which I think will reconfigure it to form nicely! So, THERE!
@MarkVrem
3 ай бұрын
GOD DAYM
@user-wk1mw9nj3i76
3 ай бұрын
I think some charts and graphs would be interesting! Just watched a program showing a current excavation in Pompei, and although it’s a distant comparison, it does illustrate that working spaces or rooms can take up more space than sleeping areas. I’m also thinking of patterns of some archeological sites where the people moved about every 3 months, perhaps partly because of human waste build up. An ancient Paleolithic site in eastern Oregon, US shows regular seasonal occupation in a cave, late summers into autumn. The people also had dogs, who lived with the people and were fed human food. The dogs also ate human poop, which must have been a handy clean-up of the cave. This was discovered from analysis of the preserved, dry fecal remains found in the caves from something like 12,000 years ago (or more or less) showing what they ate, how healthy the people were, and how they lived with dogs in the cave. They may even have used one cave for “using the bathroom”, and another for living.
@pud4272
3 ай бұрын
100% agreed and astute references. I personally feel that much of current archaeology suffers from a kind of modern conceptualisation of sedentarism within these early familial groups and as a result misunderstands the types of semi-sedentary usage that these "cities" endured. Speaking from an Australian perspective, we know for near certain that Aboriginal Australians were utilising settlements built along their own migratory, seasonal paths that they occupied, and though I cannot say for sure, I think it is arguable that very similar practices in the fertile crescent were happening 12,000 years ago, and in such a populated region, may well have seen influxes of many more thousands of people than otherwise shows up in the archaeological record. Especially if we are talking about a period in which many different large groups of familial networks were utilising different forms of traditional food-gathering. Some may have been more into a more permanent, semi-agricultural lifestyle, while others may have favoured a more semi-hunter/gatherer lifestyle that led them through Mesopotamia, stopping to stay in Catal Hoyuk for a season, potentially in now-undiscoverable wooden dwellings, much like the indigenous Australians constructed, who may have traditionally returned to the area firstly because of the animal migrations, and, coincedentally as time went by, secondly for the cultural influence and importance that this area of the world garnered for early haplogroups.
@user-wk1mw9nj3i76
3 ай бұрын
I agree with your thoughts. I wasn’t fully aware of the details of patterns of life among the first peoples in Australia. Thank you! I vote for complexity and nuance, even for, or maybe especially for, non-professionals such as myself.
@helenamcginty4920
3 ай бұрын
How soon before a You Tube history channel reports this as Çatalhüyük Shock Report Confounds Archaeologists. 😂😂😂
@KF-kx2zx
3 ай бұрын
Sounds like they are describing Detroit
@Heterogeneity
3 ай бұрын
Had the same thought
@kidmohair8151
3 ай бұрын
we may also have to stop thinking about neolithic humans having the kind of stress points that we do. they were newer at the "civilization" thing than even we are. and we're no shining examples of "civilization" ourselves, are we?
@ingeleonora-denouden6222
3 ай бұрын
maybe they were even more civilized ...
@dutchhistoricalactingcolle5883
3 ай бұрын
The vowel sounds in Kuijt, when pronounced in the Dutch fashion, do not really exist in standard English; however, it would be acceptable for non-native speakers to make it sound like 'cow' with a 't' on the end...Cowt
@ingeleonora-denouden6222
3 ай бұрын
yes, it seems impossible for anyone who isn't Dutch to pronounce it like we (Dutch) do
@stephengent9974
3 ай бұрын
Why? One study turns everything on its' head? Again why. Who is to say that the formulation this study uses is correct? Are we not throwing the baby out with the bathwater? I base my objection om the fact that most of the site is not even excavated, so how on earth can any meaningful population level be estimated? IMO it is wise to wait and get the FACTS. Now the study may be correct, or it may be absolutely wrong, or somewhere in-between. Some of the comments made seem nonsensical: Rupert is this a contiguous settlement or loose aggregations of houses? How does that not make it one settlement? Sometimes it seems like you just waffle on.
@aidanmacdougall9250
3 ай бұрын
I tend to agree with you property would have been very valuable at this time for it not to be used for people 🤔
@MarkVrem
3 ай бұрын
it is just a study, it hasn't been accepted as anything yet.
@PeachysMom
3 ай бұрын
It’s ok to discuss a study and the results they published. You aren’t expected to swallow it unquestioningly. It’s how science works.
@pud4272
3 ай бұрын
Read some of the newer comments, mine included, I think youll find some compatriots in logical arms
@philipbutler6608
3 ай бұрын
An average size family in 1850’s Scotland was probably 8-12 children. We know that there is differential reproductive success in populations and time periods. There are also population collapses. How many people did it take to maintain a 12th century Manor House or Caslte?
@pud4272
3 ай бұрын
The only problem here is in equating 12th Century, post-Roman ideas of domesticity and residential acculturation and room-designation with living practices that existed 10,000 years before this point of comparison. Archaeologists tend to forget this difference in perspective
@allangardiner2515
3 ай бұрын
Michael's reminder on an earlier downplaying of the importance of a large, peaceful and VERY long lasting settlement existing without the "benefit" of an exploiting ruling class is, I think, the real reason not to let this latest study be taken as definitive or as the basis for exaggerating conclusions, e,g, wondring whether this vast expanse was really the same as a few isolated and dispersed homesteads where people did not even see themselves as living together. there is vast pressure from a politically imotivated viewpoint to keep insisting that the undoubted value of urban existence can only be possible after the Bronze Age emergence of rulers (and violent, robbing rulers at that). Fits the myth that social equality is an impossible dream. even if neolithic urbanisation involved only hundreds of people living togI think hodder's 3,000 is still not unreasonable) that is still the sort of life that fits Aristotle's idea that human flourishing is enhanced by living in a polis. But then, reaching back, as the Australian situation shows, even dispersed stone age people had a complex method of periodic congregation.
@Epistemea
3 ай бұрын
Hello Guys, Have you heard of the movie Megaliths, Forgotten World by Howard Crowhurst? I think it might be of great interest to you! Among other sites, it also talks about Göbekli Tepe and Tas Tepeler sites. Perhaps you'd be interested in a podcast with him on your KZitem channel!
@roxiepoe9586
3 ай бұрын
I appreciate your 'content creator' work. In doing this work you often give me new (old) places to jump off into research. (I remember my first visit to Mesa Verde and the ranger's discussions of midden digging. I was 8 years old. He showed us some things that looked rather unworn which had been taken from the midden dig. I wondered at the time if it was representative of the people's style/taste/habits because it was newish. Had someone hated it and thrown it out?)
@Grievemere
3 ай бұрын
Thinking about logistics, food and water and sewage a thousand feels more real even allowing for exceptional bounty.
@pud4272
3 ай бұрын
Before Europeans turned up in America, there were arguably 75 million Bison. The ensuing population decline had more to do with modern European economic practices than it did with thousands of years of indigenous American symbiosis with that herd species. Now apply this same migratory following to Greater Mesopotamia. Consider also that sewerage is not necessarily a problem if your extended haplogroup move on before the accumulation of that sewerage starts to cause problems. By the time you return to the area in the following year, that poo has well decayed, spread, diluted, dissolved, and there is no reason to assume that people were necessarily pissing and shitting always in the same place before they moved on. This further delays the accumulation of sewerage becoming a problem. In my view there is no real reason yet to assume that this settlement was ALWAYS operating with less than 1000 permanent residents. But also consider; what is the real difference between a thousand permanent residents, and 10,000+, if many of those are semi-permanent? Perhaps occupying the region for 3-6 months of a year before moving on and returning again in the next phase of migratory calendar? Especially considering how many of these families would not have necessarily had access to masons with the skill to build them personal, permanent domesticated homes. We need to consider the gaps in the archaeological record that are left behind when we ignore the reality of how quickly, easily and efficiently that WOODEN homes can be assembled and disassembled when needed. I dont think enough excavation has happened yet to discount the possibility of these finds further around the extremities of these sites, but which may be never discovered because of the nature of wooden evidence and the rare cases in which that material is left behind.
@Patrick-kq9fy
3 ай бұрын
I loved this discussion. Here in rural Tennessee, a single family farm can have multiple out buildings. On my land, I have a house, a barn, two chicken coops and an outhouse/garden-shed... 5 buildings... For one dwelling.
@jeanettewaverly2590
3 ай бұрын
Exactly.
@lwhitaker4054
3 ай бұрын
So true...growing up, my grandparents had all that, plus a corn crib, grainery, smoke house, pig sty and spring house. They were so self sufficient. Although I must admit, cleaning the double seater outhouse was tricky...I was always worried about snakes. But, I digress.
@Heterogeneity
3 ай бұрын
Same in rural CA, we have two small dwellings but five additional bigger outbuildings and so do most of our neighbors. Way more barns and sheds for animals, storage and equipment than human homes.
@PeachysMom
3 ай бұрын
Yea, if you’re doing animal husbandry and or gardening you can’t just have a little cube house for everything you need. They used to talk about it like it was a communist egalitarian community so they would share tools and equipment but it’s hard to imagine
@ingeleonora-denouden6222
3 ай бұрын
at the other hand: I live in a building with 15 apartments, in every apartment lives at least one person, so there are over 15 people living in this building ... (not counting the cats)
@janetmackinnon3411
3 ай бұрын
Wow! One science casting a beam of light on another.Exciting!
@pud4272
3 ай бұрын
To what extent is this a reflection of modern, sedentary biases? It seems to me an overreach to assume that at this point in time, peoples had necessarily developed the cultural attitudes towards domesticity that in essence, situated them for good in the houses that had been constructed. Is there not a possibility that, these houses acted much the same as essentially hotel vacancies do? Populations much larger than 1000 individuals could have traditionally passed through this area, and been allowed to utilise domiciles for short periods, maybe months at a time, before moving on according to their own, personal networks traditions of food-gathering. We have to remember that the idea of a nation-state/ethnicities didnt necessarily exist for these people, and so there may not have been such an immediate visceral rejection of fears of what "others" may look like, or indeed their emigration through the area. Did the people of this time set up so many barriers between different familial groups? Or did they welcome them freely when they arrived? There is no evidence at Gobekli Tepe for example to suggest that there were particular INDIVIDUALS who laid any kind of personal claimant on the settlement itself. In contrast to later city-state developments that idolised and memorialised certain leaders or powerful individuals, who left their egotistical mark in statues and text, Gobekli Tepe and Catal Hoyuk, as far as has been excavated, show no signs of these same kinds of individualised memorial, declaratory monuments, arguably a later innovation within construction and masonry as an art form. Not discounting that there may have been periods where for many years at a time, there may have been only a few hundred individuals living at the site: but as a counterpoint to this, I would note that we are referring to a site which literally existed for ostensibly centuries, potentially more than a thousand years. Consider that at the height of Gobekli or Catals constructions, there may well have been in excess of many thousands, notwithstanding the huge oversight that I personally feel exists within archaeology that does not take into account the ghosts of WOODEN BUILDINGS. Masonry and stonework is a huge task, and highly irreplaceable in that sense. Consider how many temporary houses may have existed in only wooden forms that would have arguably surrounded these small stone cities, making up probably the majority of temporary residents who would know to come to this spot as a place of great human gathering and regional influence as a result. To downsize Catal Hoyuk based on some houses being turned to middens for certain periods doesnt really negate the possibility that these places held once much greater populations, especially considering the potential migratory importance of the location not just for hominids of all kinds, but all species of ungulates and herd animals.
@philipbutler6608
3 ай бұрын
Well thorough archeology should be able to carbon date occupation of individual dwellings to test the Notre Dame theory. Add to the point is that the reason for villages 10000 years ago would be self defense from animals and human attacks.
@jonathancardy9941
3 ай бұрын
Rather than think of a particular population size maintained over a very long period of time, perhaps we should think of ranges of sizes. How frequently in that era would there be diseases that killed a large proportion of the population? Conversely, how often would there be a widow bringing up a few kids for a decade, and then living alone for three or four decades but with grandchildren and great granchildren to care for in the daytime? Having kids and bringing them up Is only one phase in an adults life and not always the longest.
@ingeleonora-denouden6222
3 ай бұрын
Yes. Questions. It's all questions ... What can we know for sure, based on archaelogic finds? What can we really know about people who lived thousands of years ago? We can have theories. Nothing more ... I appreciate your channel because of the questions and the questionning
@davidknight5537
3 ай бұрын
populations fluctuate over decades never mind over centuries. . Resource depletion would probably suggest initial early population increase, followed by gradual then increased depopulation. The later stages may be sparsely occupied by herders.
@nilcarborundum7001
3 ай бұрын
Thank you for this! Great as always. It occurs to me that the biggest factor determining the size and occupation period of a settlement must have been waste disposal + disease… including how they dealt with human remains. I read something about the Brontè sisters recently, and in the 1840's, their Yorkshire village water supply was horribly contaminated by the local graveyard… makes you think.
@elizabethmcglothlin5406
3 ай бұрын
Yes. Yay for poop!
@davidwestwater2219
3 ай бұрын
That's why they drank bear
@davidwestwater2219
3 ай бұрын
These are pilgrimage sites like mecca people live there as priest's and traders to supply pilgrims
@elizabethmcglothlin5406
3 ай бұрын
As a center of some acclaim locally, it may have had a large transitory population but only a small permanent population. This makes sense. How many people lived permanently around Stonehenge after the constuction? Very interesting. And always good to hear from you. Thanks again!
@pixiepianoplayer114
3 ай бұрын
I live in Indiana now. Should I go to Notre Dame and have a chat and check their sums? Im Irish, they'll accept me right so?
@jakobfromthefence
3 ай бұрын
What comes to my mind, is how this makes our understanding of the way tels got created through time. I always imagined it, these settlements were fully populated. And that tearing down and rebuilding was in function of sanitation but done within hereditary plots of property. And this understanding changes that. With lower populations, it’s more a matter of taking over and rebuilding of abandoned buildings that have been left behind unclaimed for generations.
@pud4272
3 ай бұрын
There is no reason why these two realities have to be mutually exclusive in my view. These sites existed for more than a thousand years. At one point in time, it is still entirely possible that these sites made home for tens of thousands of people, though not necessarily all of them would absolutely have been able to home themselves in the permanent, stone buildings. Aboriginal Australians have for tens of thousands of years before this point, been constructing wooden dwellings and huts that were semi-permanent.
@forestdweller5581
3 ай бұрын
I can see how even a small population would still have individuals over many generations all wanting to make their own little dwellings. Thereby giving the impression of a larger population. We all love to make our own living space don't we? The kids move out...build another mud hut....
@TheSouthieBeautiful
3 ай бұрын
You should check your privilege. Patriarchal family structure is a modern concept. Maybe they all lived together and shared the home with non binary lifestyles.
@forestdweller5581
3 ай бұрын
@@TheSouthieBeautiful What on Earth are you talking about? 🤣🤣🤣
@TheSouthieBeautiful
3 ай бұрын
@@forestdweller5581 just trollin on a summer's eve
@aliuyar6365
3 ай бұрын
The title is correct . There is nothing wrong discussing the subject but your manners are disrespectfull to locals.
@Localfriendlyanarchist
3 ай бұрын
Why?
@PeachysMom
3 ай бұрын
No one lives there anymore…
@nightlyshift
3 ай бұрын
what did you find disrespectful? And to which locals - the ancient or the modern?
@mickmick-qn8kx
3 ай бұрын
So if the population was less than a thousand yet the landscape was verdant and could easily provide the necessary level of nutrition needed, and birth rates and population size being directly connected to available food supplies what forms of contraception did the people use to limit their population growth ????
@differous01
3 ай бұрын
In the Sayburç relief are two leopards, either side of a man in 3D, holding his 'bits'. This suggests a similar right of passage to the Massai, where you're not a 'real' man (with reproductive rights) until you kill a lion or leopard.
@pud4272
3 ай бұрын
This research only necessarily demonstrates that at some point, some rooms that could be understood as residences, were instead utilised as middens. It certainly does not prove that there was never more than 1000 people living on-site
@user-wk1mw9nj3i76
3 ай бұрын
Many North American Native American plains tribes (such as the Lakota and Cheyenne) had a low birthrate of perhaps a new child every 6 years, before Europeans took over the continent. That intentional practice protected the child from resource shortages. Children were a precious resource to be invested in, so to speak. They had very few communicable diseases, pre-Europeans, so some of the Old World baby-killing diseases were less of a factor. Shortage of food in a long winter among a hunting culture was a factor, and children are vulnerable to starvation.
@nilcarborundum7001
3 ай бұрын
@@pud4272 I don't think it is being presented as "proof" - it is a further possibility being investigated at this time…
@ruthcherry3177
3 ай бұрын
Thanks for the great discussion, guys, love to hear you mulling things over. We do need to be careful about (which is completely natural); our own life experience. Michael talks a lot about "Europe" but we must consider northern Europe as a very different place from southern Europe, plus what is now Turkiye, Greece and the Mediterranean basin (the Levant). Even many thousands of years ago, the differences in climate and temperature would still have been markedly different, affecting cultures and lifestyles. What Rupert notices in the south of France, regarding derelict buildings, is very similar to what I see here in Spain, but it probably has more to do with the "Napoleonic Law / Code", which still has an impact on the inheritance of properties in France, and interestingly, also Spain! As a result, many properties fall into disrepair. It's also only very recently that children have had "playtime", and even in the Victorian period in England, only those from the richest of families would have had leisure time. Games would usually have real life training elements used to hone important skills. Please do remember the negative, yet inevitable impacts of parasites, bacteria and viruses! When too many people live together, things can, and do, go sideways VERY quickly! Due to the Black Plague, an estimated 30 - 50 % of the European population died between 1346 to 1353! Pretty much half of the population died. The larger the population, the greater the risk of disease and death. I look forward to the next publication of yours on KZitem; as always. I really hope to be in a position to support your work on Patreon in the near future. Keep it up - but more from Rupert and a little less from Michael, pretty please - don't think Rupert is a guest speaker!?!?!
@christopherhoneyands9252
3 ай бұрын
I would like you to consider a third hypothesis: This requires thinking that is beyond the archaeologists' very narrow world view - There were no (zero) residents of this site; it wasn't residential. This isn't to say that they didn't bury people there.
@sallyreno6296
3 ай бұрын
Y'all are the berries!
@Localfriendlyanarchist
3 ай бұрын
James Mellaart
@JeffJ337
3 ай бұрын
The bottom line is that we have no way to truly know.
@deormanrobey892
3 ай бұрын
🙂
@chappellroseholt5740
3 ай бұрын
Good morning from the beautiful SF Bay Area. Very interesting, there's so much to learn and discover and so much we can never know. Love you guys!
@napalmholocaust9093
3 ай бұрын
Warms my heart to think we are alike enough through time to have all kinds of eccentricities that would warp the perceived population. Things like hoarders and slumlords that let whole neighborhoods fall apart, the crazies that people move away from (I kinda know that is fictitious. People only took 💩 up to a point 💀), or speculators that kept places empty. Even people just building as a hobby and making a grand compound for two empty nesters. We'll never know. Sure discredits them to be so clinical (and a bit cynical) to "only" count foundations and rooms.
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