just wanted to say that when I first came across this video 6 years ago, your points about how subcultures often reject the aesthetics of dominant culture while recreating the same prejudices completely changed the way I looked at both art and politics. The idea that "the paint job isn't the problem" really sparked an interest in material analysis for me, and I'm sincerely grateful for that.
@IncredibleMD
2 жыл бұрын
The people most obsessed with Marvel and Star Wars, today, are the type of people who'd relentlessly mock Marvel and Star Wars fans 25 years ago. And they still relentlessly mock those same people today, for the same thing. They just do it with a slightly different paint job. Now, instead of being mocked just for being a fan, they get mocked for being the wrong kind of fan, or a fan of the old media to the exclusion of the new, no matter how much the new shits on the old. One of Disney's first acts as stewards of Star Wars was to throw out ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that kept the franchise alive between 1983 and 1999. How is that not a huge middle finger to the fans? It was almost like it was precalculated to weed out anyone who might care about Star Wars too much to easily shovel mouse shit onto their dinner plates.
@luisramirez-ut8vh
Жыл бұрын
@@IncredibleMD well put
@d3nza482
Жыл бұрын
@@IncredibleMD To be fair, their motives are purely capitalistic. Giving fans "a huge middle finger" never even crossed their mind. No profit in that. Treating past extended universe as no longer canon they don't have to pay residuals to anyone who worked on creating all those cultural products - and they own everything from the point of purchase to eternity. And make no mistake. They plan to own it FOREVER. That is why every Star Wars character (hell, most nouns) has had a TM added to their name after being sold to Disney. Cause trademarks NEVER run out. Movies will eventually be public domain, but you will never be allowed to create a story in Star Wars universe or use any of characters, locations or objects in Star WarsTM to create your own stories. Only Disney will ever be able to do that, and it will be done solely to maintain and increase capital. It's dead culture. Same with anything Marvel. Hell, they even lay claim on Dracula (despite its public domain status) trademark and even owned "zombie" despite being a generic and/or religious term. And that's all there from BEFORE purchase by Disney. Dead culture.
@Kidomaru222
10 ай бұрын
@@IncredibleMD God, is there something more lame than to hijack a topic to rant about Star Wars movies, as if a single person here hadn't already heard everything you have to say on the matter ?
@jalight27
4 ай бұрын
That's amazing. There's a lot of downsides to modern life, but the availability of material that can immeasurably expand your awareness is absolutely my favorite part. It gives a blue collar guh like me access to information I'd never have been able to obtain in previous ages.
@lycanthrope182
Жыл бұрын
"We just don't have time" Given the several hour long videos that Dan's been making lately, this is quaint
@doingitwelldotbiz
Жыл бұрын
This feels a bit like a prequel to Line Goes Up. Disenfranchised, entitled dudes attempting to create their own hierarchy, with pixels and DAOs because real men have money. Financial machismo, maybe?
@AoiLucine
9 ай бұрын
@doingitwelldotbiz line goes up And this is financial advice.
@testacals
7 ай бұрын
@@doingitwelldotbiz Bro, wanting money doesn't have shit to do with machismo
@paultapping9510
7 ай бұрын
@testacals uh huh, please tell me again mr. uh... Testicles, how dudebros such as yourself aren't obsessed with masculinity.
@maziecat
7 ай бұрын
I look forward to one day watching Folding Ideas videos in theaters
@casadashwood2245
4 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this. I'm sorry about the abuse you receive, it really does speak to how dark things are/can be. Also, as someone who was assaulted at university and who found the response of others to be incredibly traumatic, hearing you highlight the "what did you expect" response really affected me. Thank you for recognising that expecting little to nothing of men is wrong and hurts us all. Thank you.
@beachcomber2008
4 жыл бұрын
Well said.
@GiantPetRat
3 жыл бұрын
What really bugs me are all of those "There is no love like a mother's love" and "The mother is the most important person in regards to your happiness". Like, yes, there are plenty of men who abandon their kids or are shallow, but to make it out like fatherhood is just a trivial element in a person's upbringing is so infuriatingly dismissive that it makes me want to break something.
@Necroskull388
2 жыл бұрын
It’s not that we expect little to nothing of men. It’s that we expect little to nothing of men with regards to empathy, while also expecting rigid compliance and savage competitiveness of men. Society’s expectations of men are horrifically paradoxical.
@87392v
8 жыл бұрын
this video really clarified a lot of my own hangups for me. I hadn't realized that this may help explain why it's only easy to open up to nurturing women, and why there's such pressure on even casual sexual encounters to perform. the first few minutes of your video represent the beginning and end of most conversations about toxic masculinity, but exploring "Jack's" perspective in this analysis allowed you to touch on points I've never even thought of, like how it feels strange to look for female friends without even briefly considering being fwb. thank you for posting this on KZitem.
@karlhenke91
7 жыл бұрын
87392v I hear you. The hardest part is knowing where you need to get (eg. getting past the trappings), but not knowing how. How's it working for you?
@oof-rr5nf
5 жыл бұрын
I'll be your gal pal, mate. 🌷
@mixiekins
4 жыл бұрын
Here here, dude. This issue even extends to tomboys, my dad wanted a son but got me. From 6th grade onward we had no cable, but Fight Club was one of the five VHS' we had, so guess what I was unintentionally brainwashed with. We both genuinely enjoyed it, of course, but the lack of variety became an issue that wasn't apparent at the time. I wanted so much to be a character and join, but had to be content with being a cheerleader on the sidelines in my fantasy in just the same way as I was passively watching from the other side of the TV. Years before we got that movie I resented the girl scouts for being phony dressed up excuses to sell cookies, and learned to be in the boy scouts where they taught bushcraft and other practical skills while I begrudgingly made paper mache faces with googly eyes. Dad took me to shooting ranges when I was very much underaged (actively instructed me to lie about my age if asked), dragging me kicking and screaming (often in actuality, not just figuratively) into his own very manly hobbies which I did not have an interest in. Even as an adult he relentlessly harassed me to get a conceal and carry until I caved and abided just to shut him up. He encouraged me to pursue my own interests, sure, but he never joined me in mine, whereas I was obligated to join him in his as his little sidekick buddy. I'll never forget, he had these nerf footballs shaped like missiles with whistles in the side, and no matter how many times I froze and curled up when I heard them dropping like bombs, he kept encouraging me to try again. Sure, it was intended as exercise and to build motor skills, but his frustrations were clear: he wanted me to be able to take a hit to the face without flinching, to "man up" as it were. I would make it clear I didn't want to, but we would end up doing those exercises regardless, and every time it would end with me crying and him frustrated or yelling. Whenever I was bullied, he'd encourage me to stand my ground, taught me how to fight back, which is a good thing for everyone to be capable of, but we never looked deeper to solve the issues which were the source of the bullying to begin with. It was all reactionary, a bandaid on the surface. He wanted a boy, and as a tomboy I wasn't enough. Naturally, my only true friends were boys, and things changed in middle school when everyone hit puberty. I didn't feel like a lesbian, didn't have interests in women, but felt like I had to front as one since the guys would nolonger see me as a comrade but rather a walking orifice they yearned to fuck. I didn't understand why things had to change, why we couldn't continue being bros without the sexual tension. I even wished I had been a boy and occasionally contemplated surgery, but knew it wasn't going to help, because I didn't feel like a boy mentally, I simply wanted to hang out with my friends without being hit on. I don't know where I belong. My only friend is my husband. Why can't we tell boys it's ok to be friends with girls, for dads to play along with their daughters for dress up and tea time, and just let a person's interests be their interests without having to label them tomboys and fags.
@edsantosIsMusic
4 жыл бұрын
.
@bymovingimages
4 жыл бұрын
Cari Garafalo holy shit that was the most intense comment I have ever read on KZitem
@Whitechapelfiend
7 жыл бұрын
Wow, the treatment of Marla invading the male support groups and Jack's reaction is spot on with "Fake Geek Girl" issue in nerd culture.
@kef0205
3 жыл бұрын
@Markus Achilles Jesus H fucking Christ you bots need to learn to read the room.
@livewellwitheds6885
2 жыл бұрын
yes absolutely
@kaisburg2450
2 жыл бұрын
@@Laotzu.Goldbug Having multiple sexual partners every two days is arguably not a deep seated evolutionary trait, yet your mom keeps doing it. Maybe we as a species can memetically evolve past our biological tendencies.
@glueplay
2 жыл бұрын
@@kaisburg2450 you watching Hasan?
@thecanmanification
2 жыл бұрын
@@glueplay never heard of him. You should check out Hank Pecker though, very based
@dakotahale1788
7 жыл бұрын
Bro this is a great discussion, subbed for taking on a difficult topic thoughtfully.
@kelvinhu2063
7 жыл бұрын
Ummm... Everything you're saying is wrong. I'm now going to misinterpret your point and bring up situations that clearly don't disprove your argument and say they disprove your argument. Then, I will talk about the other side of this issue as though the two are equally bad. I will now proceed to dogwhistle the everloving shit out of this, restating every belief associated with various hate groups without using their terminology. Someone who responds will call me out and point out that the beliefs I am stating like fact originated from hate groups, but I will then call them deluded and say that they are in fact the real hate group. Probably while dogwhistling some more.
@nfinn42
7 жыл бұрын
Wow, you just summarized all reactionary / alt-right "debaters" on the Internet. I wish they would read your comment and just log off forever, but sadly it's not to be. :\
@mothbazooka
6 жыл бұрын
Thank you for writing this, seriously.
@rawalshadab3812
6 жыл бұрын
I will miss the point in your satirical post and begin arguing with you.
@TheCompleteGuitarist
6 жыл бұрын
nfinn42 ... that's a great knock down. If they disagree with you just call em alt-right. Who'd have thought. This video's analysis of the movie is so so far off the mark if he didn't ever mention the title you'd swear he was talking about a totally different movie. Fight Club is the ultimate SJW movie. Practically every fight club member is an sjw fighting to bring down 'the man'.
@rawalshadab3812
6 жыл бұрын
Such a detailed opinion. /s If you don't understand how a movie about men who feel their masculinity threatened start a club where they act out their own primal instincts to the point that the founder of the club develops a split personality is actually about the concept of 'toxic masulinity', then you are truly blind. But ok, it's about those darn "sjws" (whatever the fuck that term even means anymore) because you said so.
@bygon432
7 жыл бұрын
Man, I really need to watch this movie again, especially considering that I wasn't a feminist the last time. This was amazing.
@AbraHaze84
4 жыл бұрын
It saddens me that I'm unable to fully follow the explaination due to the fact that english is not my main language but I liked what I was able to understand heh... thanks for this
@oof-wi7hp
4 жыл бұрын
such a sweet comment! if there is any specific part you struggled with, let me know the time stamp. i can rewatch it and break it down for you
@AbraHaze84
4 жыл бұрын
@@oof-wi7hp First of all, thank you, appreciate the offer... It's a bit tricky pointing at a specific time stamp, i belive that if I'll listen to it a few more times I'll finally be able to digest the whole thing :)
@oof-wi7hp
4 жыл бұрын
@@AbraHaze84 that's great! all the best
@beachcomber2008
4 жыл бұрын
It gets easier.
@shaurmiath6719
3 жыл бұрын
As someone who has also learned multiple languages, I applaud you. I couldn't imagine how difficult this video would be for me if it were in German or Urdu.
@TheSchmuck2
7 жыл бұрын
so this is my new favorite youtube channel. Your video about Suicide Squad and editing showed up on my front page today and that was awesome, and this video is just fantastic. You really kick ass. in an intellectual sense.
@theoisgod7201
7 жыл бұрын
Same here just watched Suicide Squad video and subscribed
@supermonkeycollider
7 жыл бұрын
Same. Hey, maybe we should start some sort of secret club.
@lunaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
7 жыл бұрын
+Em Wilson can I join? \o/
@jbark678
7 жыл бұрын
Don't talk about it though....
@spookyadler
7 жыл бұрын
Same. Great channel
@anniemcintosh2629
6 жыл бұрын
This is honestly my new favorite channel. I've written academic essays about Fight Club and other subjects that you also have other video essays on, but watching this video made me want to go back to that research and wrestle my thesis a little. You hit points that I had never considered while also contextualizing this discussion with issues that surround us today. Great job.
@MadRoadDriving
7 жыл бұрын
This is the best Fight Club analysis I've ever seen. Just extremely thorough
@thepencilfingers
7 жыл бұрын
This video has kicked my ass. I really liked fight club when I first saw it, but I didn't know why until now. And I'm not being gullible, I think you really have captured all the reasons it resonated with me and deconstructed them. I haven't felt this small and alone in a long time. I don't know what I want as a human being anymore. Fuck.
@thepencilfingers
7 жыл бұрын
The only issue is that these aren't things I've been taught to want. I genuinely have built a big part of my life around chasing these things which the video exposes as trite, predictable, and indefensible. The video notes that Robert Paulson is the commendable character, but he's always been my nightmare, and the video is kind of right. Admitting I'm a failure is a big pill to swallow.
@victorbarraza4910
7 жыл бұрын
oh jeez, pls don't go into full red pill XD
@victorbarraza4910
7 жыл бұрын
I don't think that's correct. I mean, you have the ability to question yourself and not take this as a personal attack. that's better than most of the internet. I commend you for that and you should be proud. I think this video needs a caveat. It's ok to like manly shit, what's not ok is to feel like you have to like manly shit because you are a man, or not liking them makes you less of a man (whatever that's supposed to mean)
@victorbarraza4910
7 жыл бұрын
TopHatPangolin no mather how many times that last part is said, still people take offense to it, god fucking dammit. Also, I love that the official term is "manly shit".
@quillo2747
6 жыл бұрын
I wouldnt pay too much heed to a guy that thinks testicles are just a social construct
@SteinGauslaaStrindhaug
5 жыл бұрын
I remember so many of my friends, well maybe not so much friends as classmates.. who saw that movie and in stead of seeing any deeper message in the movie, just thought: "Fighting is cool! Let's start with Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) fighting." And I was just thinking quietly to myself: "I really don't think that was the message..." I actually start to wonder if Fight Club is responsible for boosting MMA fighting into mainstream popularity.
@mon0752
4 жыл бұрын
hope she sees this bro
@davidv4018
4 жыл бұрын
Not.
@SteinGauslaaStrindhaug
4 жыл бұрын
@@davidv4018 what?
@lexyeevee
10 ай бұрын
it only just crossed my mind that while the narrator is presented as faking or intruding on the support groups, and how that's how he sees himself as well, he's not entirely out of place. because he /does/ need help. he just doesn't know where to get it.
@Dastankbeets9486
4 жыл бұрын
One of the best ways to live your life is to realise that you don’t have to be either gender. Just take whatever parts of masculinity and femininity you like and mash them together. You can like violent video games and cry when animals get hurt. You can enjoy knitting and wrestling. You can be empathetic and stoic at once. Power, toughness, aggressiveness and stoic ness are requirements for masculinity. But masculinity is not required to be a man. All that requires is to identify as a male and be of at least 18 years of age, or whatever it is in your country. Being a man doesn’t grant you any priveliges or requirements beyond those of being an adult.
@m.f.3347
4 жыл бұрын
gender abolitionist comrade
@tand0r
2 жыл бұрын
Extremely fitting pfp lmao
@tomaszsotysik9438
2 жыл бұрын
To clarify, being a Stoic is being empathethic. What you said about Stoicism is the so called "lowercase s stoicism", which is part of toxic masculinity because it takes only parts of the whole philosophy and distorts them. For example, Stoicism is more about understanding your emotions, while stoicism is about suppressing emotions.
@TerranPersoid725
2 жыл бұрын
I have a friend who still to this day, worships this movie for all of the wrong reasons. Wants a “Tyler Durden jacket” and everything.
@VividAnarchy
5 ай бұрын
it is shockingly hard to find good fight club video essays. i only saw the movie for the first time last year and immediately was interested to see people analysing it. was happy to find dan had one which i was sure would be at least decent if not great. but then next one that looked good ended up being pretty misogynist and fixated on dropping sperm count in the modern age. so. thanks for this one at least dan.
@luckystriker842
6 жыл бұрын
1. If you aren't comfortable with the term "toxic masculinity", call it something else. Call it "machismo and chauvinism". Call it whatever. Whatever you call it, you need to see that there are certain masculine traits and behaviors that can be too much of a good thing. It's harmful to themselves and others. If you need an example of why toxic masculinity is harmful, imagine an untrained individual jumping off a cliff without a parachute because they need to prove that they are fearless. They die because they did something stupid in order to prove their masculinity. By the same token, an untrained individual dying in a house fire because he went back in to save his wife and kids is an example of beneficial masculinity. I2. If biotruths about masculinity and femininity are so ingrained into our brains, why is it so easy to defy them? That's easy if you know your sociology. The gender roles that base themselves around those biotruths are social constructs and are NOT ingrained into the human psyche. Men aren't born a Tyler Durden and then society weakens them. Men can develop into Tyler Durden, but they can also not develop into a Tyler Durden. 3. Why is masculinity and feminity a zero-sum game? To go back to the example about the guy in the house fire, he did something fearless because he felt an emotion. I would consider that guy a "real man". Wouldn't you?
@yonatanbeer3475
5 жыл бұрын
Dying in a fire is just as much bad as dying when jumping off a cliff
@geoffreysorkin5774
4 жыл бұрын
@@yonatanbeer3475 What if he saves his children, but dies from smoke inhalation? The firefighters would not have arrived in time, so he dies but his children live instead of the opposite. Is that the same as jumping off a cliff to be manly?
@benperkins6657
7 жыл бұрын
Love this video.Very well thought out. I would say that I always thought Marla was another personality of the narrator, and so, therefore a lot of her feminism is filtered through this skewed sense of masculinity. You touched on some of the ideas I think about all the time in regards to this subject. Very well done.
@ravenofroses
7 жыл бұрын
christ i love this analysis. i'm recommending it to all my friends who like media analyses. and all my friends who like socio-political analyses. ugh. thanks for this.
@gendergoo1312
9 жыл бұрын
Fucking brilliant.
@sedgeflower
7 жыл бұрын
One of the most compelling film essays I've seen recently, I'm so glad I found this channel.
@TheProcrastiMaster
7 жыл бұрын
I don't even have the words to express how much I appreciate and agree with all of this. I love your videos SO, so much. I can't believe it's taken me so long to find them. They're brilliant and you're awesome. I''ve been spamming my friends with links.
@LadyArtemis2012
7 жыл бұрын
Wow...I had never read this far into Fight Club. That is quite a lot of subtext I would not have picked up on. Thank you for that.
@livewellwitheds6885
2 жыл бұрын
as a disabled trans guy, who has NEVER been considered a "real man" this is a very interesting video! great job
@pr0grammcsynth797
8 жыл бұрын
I considered commenting specifically on the video, but then I read the comments, and you know what? I think I'm good. Dan, if you read current comments on older videos, I'm a new viewer, having found your work through the brief discussion with Lindsay Ellis w/r/t RENT on Twitter which then turned into your (as of the time of this writing) most recent video regarding the framing of RENT and the Take Me Out / Light My Candle / Whatever the third song in that sequence scene. I've marathon watched the first four seasons and intend to continue with the next two and then go through the minisodes and all that and just. I really like your work. All of it. Well done and thank you.
@SunflowerSpotlight
6 жыл бұрын
Pr0gram McSynth I found him through Ms. Ellis’s work too! I’m so glad I did; this content is interesting and couched in a way I’ve not heard before. I love finding stuff like this on KZitem. Cheers! 😊
@anamakesthings
5 жыл бұрын
first rule of talking about fight club: thou shalt not hide the like/dislike bar.
@joemama-ks9ty
Жыл бұрын
Growing up, i would trash on masculinity and corporatism... while at the same time having those exact toxic traits cause im a cis white dude. I was even a geek, but at some point i rejected my geekiness (which i am trying to bring back). I currently think that in reality, an individual (no matter their gender) should strive to have both masculinity's and femininity's positive characteristics. My actions and beliefs are so full of contradictions man, i wish i could be more consistent
@itcouldbelupus2842
10 ай бұрын
I agree with this, well put
@derekmatzek9551
2 жыл бұрын
My roommate in college was a big fan of this movie and tried to start a fight club and wouldn’t let me say no to joining, needless to say, this video has been free therapy for me, thank you!
@daves-c8919
7 жыл бұрын
I first saw this film 12 years ago, and it's been with me ever since. It was the beginning of my discussion with myself about manhood, masculinity and what kind of human I want to be. You just added a new perspective, so thank you.
@ChristyAbbey
7 жыл бұрын
This is... amazing. No other words... just... wow. Putting together words is part of my living, and I will never be able to match this. You've given me a new vocabulary to talk about these issues. Thank you.
@fredericchristie3472
7 жыл бұрын
I love this analysis! Personally, I've always had an ambivalent relationship to Fight Club, for all the reasons you describe here. The protagonist is so frustratingly close to having a real insight as to the nature of society. Me personally, I think there's a parallel to the narrative of masculinity. Just like Tyler Durden absorbs a shallow shell of masculinity that he attempts to redeem, he also absorbs a shallow shell of punk and anarchism. The idea that just eliminating credit card debt would somehow end the injustices of capitalism is plagued by the same superficial analysis as everything else he does. I've always felt that the movie was actually more about a failed anarchism or failed punk culture, though I readily concede that could be me reading into it. My issue with Fight Club is that I don't see a solution posed by the narrative. You point out in Rent that in a movie there's a "good guy/bad guy" dynamic, and it's just too easy to identify with Tyler despite the fact that he is to such a degree a failed hero. In a book I think it's less problematic when you have the story not able to show a path or resolution forward; here, i just see thesis and antithesis, no synthesis.
@oof-rr5nf
5 жыл бұрын
love this comment!
@Jans6ever
4 жыл бұрын
There is no point is reaching a conclusion inside the movie, because objective answers don't exist. The movie creates dilema and conversation, and lets the viewer reach his own conclusions, instead of trying to tell them what the truth is. That, is more valuable than trying to act as if you know the truth, and its what makes the movie great
@overestimatedforesight
4 жыл бұрын
Goddamn, your content is incredible.
@GippyHappy
Жыл бұрын
14:14-15:28 I gotta bookmark this cause it’s such a great tear down of something I struggled to put into words. Amazing analysis!
@Toneill029
9 ай бұрын
So in short don’t be rigid in who you are. You are a person, society doesn’t define you but you have your place in it. It’s fine to be masculine but there is no correct way to be masculine, just so long as you aren’t hurting people or yourself.
@zachhaas1075
Жыл бұрын
little sidenote but, I love how all the macho tough military man putin shit fell apart overnight.
@MrBeiragua
7 жыл бұрын
the way you explain "toxic masculinity" reminds me of a concept some people in youtube talk about called "male disposability". They're bot the same, but look similar, as I have once noticed in the past.
4 жыл бұрын
This is a great video essay, I don't understand why it only got 0 likes in 5 years...
@CordelaineKline
7 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the great video! Fight Club is one of my favorite films and I love hearing interpretations of it. Your analysis was enlightening and thorough and I'm looking forward to watching your video again, thanks!
@RainbowLizardOne
7 жыл бұрын
Fight Club's biggest problem is its presentation of ideas. It can't decide if it wants to condemn the actions of the narrator or fetishize them. The film's need to flashy fight scenes that look cool works against what was likely its intended message, and theres very little there to suggest that his life before he joined fight club was okay, and that his treatment of people afterwards is a bad thing and not cool. The final scene is likely the most conflicted: while yes, the reconnection with Marla is there, which shows how he's getting rid of his toxicity, but the exploding buildings in the background are presented as beautiful, rather than horrible atrocities that he technically comitted.
@victorbarraza4910
7 жыл бұрын
that was the idea I think. to present you with that conflict. If you fall into the alure of violence, you still get this somber idea that "something is not right" because of the meassage of the film. it's the same concept as satire.
@zerakielvmark
7 жыл бұрын
For the same reason making a anti-war war movie is very difficult, since you end up glorifying the violence in some way or another. There seems to be a conflict between the message and the technical depiction in frame. You end up having great looking scenes the audience remembers and the message lingering in the back of your head.
@victorbarraza4910
7 жыл бұрын
Zerachiel van Mark oh we agree there. are you better than the people you are satirizing by doing the same thing than them, but ironically?
@weresmygun
7 жыл бұрын
"very little there to suggest that his life before he joined fight club was okay, and that his treatment of people afterwards is a bad thing and not cool." Except Tyler's whole character?
@harlanhardway5955
6 жыл бұрын
Thank you for being this voice on the internet. I can't tell you how much I appreciate what you're doing: the topics you have the balls (and isn't that an ironic turn of phrase) to tackle head-on and take an actual stance on, backed up with research and critical thinking. Thanks for keeping at it.
@tisineverfear1490
7 жыл бұрын
I mean, i just saw this movie as a reflection on society, self loathing, and wanting change yourself to the point that it becomes dangerous.
@AeryonSun
7 жыл бұрын
Absolutely the best video I've seen about Toxic Masculinity. Easy to follow and assessable. Fantastic job, this is utterly beautiful! Thank you so much for taking the time to do this!
@Semiotichazey
3 жыл бұрын
"Fight Club, intentionally or not..." This is only thing that you said which I take issue with...I believe the expose of toxic masculinity was entirely intentional. Back when FC came out, the I came to the same interpretation as you but without the benefit of the term "toxic masculinity." Well, I didn't see everything you point out; I didn't quite pick up on how FC itself mirrors the exploitive nature of the broader society. But I think that was intentional, too. There are a number of movies that came out around this time that were broadly misunderstood to mean the exact opposite of what they were actually trying to say. A surprising number of people don't realize that Fight Club is siding against the Durden personality. Likewise, Starship Troopers was (quite obviously, I thought at the time) a satire of militarization and the attendant propaganda, and Lester Burnham in American Beauty was an entitled man-child.
@barbarazottis5915
5 жыл бұрын
If you read the book the message is even more clear. Specially if you read other material from Chuck Palaniak (i have no idea how to write that) in the book lulliby the main character is also a frustraited man who finds power and starts destroying what he perceives as wrong (and is all very personal and petty things). The entitlement of misfits perceved as "wronged" men is one that is not supposed to be viewed as positive. When I realized that, it made it surreal to see how most people perceive Fight Club as an "awesome idea" that should be replicated, like the autor actually wanted to riot and bring the "feminine system down". The guy destroys himself, distroys others lives, and yet people see tyler as the hero. This shows how much people are ready to twist the nerrative to serve their own fantasy and not really reflect on themselves and whats the real problem - yet is not surprise. Reflecting on that would require to rebuild all your understanding on self and the world.
@Garbaz
4 жыл бұрын
1:22 Thank you for defining your terminology in your videos (in general)! While I know by now what is meant with "toxic masculinity", the first time I heard the term, I had an instinctive defensive reaction, which in turn strongly coloured my perception of the video in question. Without being aware, I understood the term, at least on an emotional level, as an attack, not as "the toxic part of masculinity", but as "masculinity is toxic". And I am sure I am not alone in that. In general, these kinds of misunderstandings about terminology, or more precisely the unawareness of how our minds unconsciously wrongly perceive certain terms, seem to the the root cause for so many pointless discussions and worse. To give another personal example: Despite growing up in a rather "feminist" household, it took me until almost adulthood to understand what "feminism" really meant. Without knowing, I had adopted a false understanding of the term, largely informed by snippets of "the news" and anti-feminist rhetoric online. And it's not like I was anti-feminist or anything, that's not the issue, it's that when I heard the term, the connotations for me were largely negative ("weird" protests, anti-masculinity, etc). So despite being consciously apathetic towards the topic, unconsciously I would side against someone calling themselves "feminist", despite the fact that I likely wouldn't actually disagree with them about most issues. To lean into a bit of speculation, I think a lot of extremism starts off with these kinds of benign misunderstandings about terminology. It is a lot easier to reinforce your current unconscious understanding of the world, than to examine and reject it when confronted, no matter how vague and casual it is. And while I usually disagree with people saying that "the bad" can be solved through better schooling (No, if someone is already invested, a teacher telling them that "it's bad" won't change their mind), I think this is a case where schools actually could do some good by impartially teaching the correct definition of terminology.
@wryginger2307
7 жыл бұрын
I always find it so interesting when people approach Marla as though she actually exists.
@ContradictoryNature
7 жыл бұрын
Hey, you know what made me feel really good? Reading the first three comments and going "You know what, I don't actually need the shitstorm to appreciate and critically analyze for myself the opinions and viewpoints put forth eloquently in this video." Then I left this message here to feel smug. Then I added the phrase "to feel smug" so that I'd neuter any accusations of smug superiority with my biting totally-so-meta self-awareness. Then I added that phrase to head-off any arguments about whether or not I was actually being totally-so-meta self-aware. Then I added that phrase as I realized I was part of the circle. Then I added that phrase as I realized I was part of the circle. Then I added that phrase as I realized I was part of the circle. Help
@Marsyas01
2 жыл бұрын
The first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club.
@xcodebeex
7 жыл бұрын
This made me love the movie even more, used to watch it on repeat in middle school, not sure why. Just always spoke to me. This video made things a little clearer for me tho. Haven't watched in years, gonna watch it this week now lol
@PostcastFromFiretopMountain
7 жыл бұрын
Excellent video, I may just use this to illustrate to people what toxic masculinity is and how it functions. Thank you.
@Haarization
4 жыл бұрын
"... we don't have time...... we just don't have time" wish this video came out in 2020 when 1hr was the norm :(
@tim_hoffman
5 жыл бұрын
Brilliant analysis and breakdown! Easily one of the best I’ve seen for what is one of my favorite films/books. I appreciate your brutal honesty in your reading of Fight Club as a deconstruction and criticism of fascism, toxic masculinity, and capitalism it truly is.
@davevok888
2 жыл бұрын
Really refreshing analysis, also went through the phase of loving fight club in my teens because it gave me a sense that all I need to become a man is a violent catharsis. The interpretation of the final scene as him finally being able to connect is something that I never thought of. On the other hand - you threw the whole concept of biological gender predestination out the window as bs, but as a biologist I find that too dismissing. The biological gender differences in behavior will always be here, but you are right that it shouldn't be used as an excuse for sexual violence etc.
@firetarrasque4667
4 жыл бұрын
I have hit up against the wall of toxic masculinity, *a lot.* I'm a dedicated Christian, and a pacifist. Just the idea that I *do not fight, ever* can be really confusing for people to understand. I've gotten criticisms from people on the left about how I'm letting people be hurt, and those are fair, but I've also been attacked as weak or cowardly because I don't believe in violence.
@firetarrasque4667
5 жыл бұрын
I am very frustrated by ALL THE FUCKING ACE ERASURE I AM TIRED OF IT
@aberrantcow
7 жыл бұрын
I always had a weird perception of this movie...like I wasn't 100% sure of what it represented and what it was trying to say. I appreciate your analysis! This cleared up a lot of my questions.
@EpicWin1337
2 жыл бұрын
Fight club was my favorite movie as an edgy teen for all the wrong reasons. Fight club is still one of my favorite movies but, for none of those reasons. To me, its the best movie to tell how mature a guy is.
@skanderbeg682
2 жыл бұрын
great video, needed more than ever
@maxwellcouture8870
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for articulating a lot of the ideas that made me fall in love with this film but I couldn't fully grasp.
@emma_maze
2 жыл бұрын
Good video~ I was so confused to see the most popular analyses of this movie on KZitem talk about how this movie is supposed to show that "men are miserable because they aren't men anymore", even talking about how the testicular cancer support group is supposed to show that a lack of testosterone and surplus of estrogen is the reason for men's problems today, that the rise in depression is due to some unexplained drastic hormonal change in the male population, obviously citing zero sources for any of this.
@camperbbq3026
2 жыл бұрын
you probably talking bout moon he right tho teaching men to give up and cry all day isn't gonna solve any of their problems like the support groups do is terrible. This is your citing and you wouldn't understand anyways cause u a girl and have extremely low testosterone
@longliverocknroll5
Жыл бұрын
@@camperbbq3026 Good thing that's not what critics of toxic masculinity are saying then, dumbass lmao.
@camperbbq3026
Жыл бұрын
@@longliverocknroll5 yes it is "It's ok to be weak is one of the dumbest feminist propaganda I've ever heard
@longliverocknroll5
Жыл бұрын
@@camperbbq3026 Because you drink lead paint daily lmao.
@DemRat
Жыл бұрын
@@camperbbq3026 Emotional problems are real problems and crying can be an effective tool to deal with some of them.
@MrPooleish
2 жыл бұрын
That Putin Punching the Jet image aged like warm milk.
@Myoron
5 жыл бұрын
Jesus this was uploaded 5 years ago and it's still really relevant? That's... disturbingly sad
@skyblueo
7 жыл бұрын
I've found some of the other videos overlong. This one was on target and not full of repetitions. Thanks for posting this.
@stanleywu9741
4 жыл бұрын
You bring up some very nuanced arguments. My only disagreement is that I don't believe aggressiveness, intense sexual desire, and anger are bad things when channelled correctly. When channelled they lead you to pursue new challenges, evolve, and uncover meaning, and I think condemning these traits leads to unhealthy psychological repression among those who do posess them. Of course not everyone conforms to the so called standards or masculinity and femininity, and I think we both agree that the goal should be liberation to be yourself, rather than to be repressed by having to conform.
@cosakidd
7 жыл бұрын
Great video. This and your Gamergate analysis draw parallels between the radicalism of whats going on in cultures all over the world and how resistance can lead to terrorism.
@TheSugarRay
7 жыл бұрын
I can't have just one favorite KZitemr and you just joined the pantheon.
@danielldonnelly
7 жыл бұрын
its very strange to watch your newer videos and than going back to you older videos and seeing a puppet
@greatquux
Жыл бұрын
An excellent video, had to rewatch after seeing the movie for the first time in like 24 years tonight.
@SmellsLikeEMinor
5 жыл бұрын
Excuse my previous comment. I thought the subtitles we're a product of your doing. They were just, somehow, turned on. Good video
@talkingdeads
5 жыл бұрын
this was amazing. thanks for making that video, I'll totally re-visit it a few more times in the future.
@Mier0blivious
7 жыл бұрын
While I resist the urge to be baited into these comment threads, I'd just like to express my appreciation for the work you've put into creating videos like these. I tend to restrain myself from taking part of youtube conversations cause it would be the same as beating your head into the wall, but I tend to avoid commenting altogether. That shouldn't be an excuse to not leave positive feedback. Again thanks.
@MyssBlewm
7 жыл бұрын
Something I like about Fight Club is that it calls out toxic masculinity but the people, mostly men, who say this is their favorite film miss out on that message in the film. I've seen YT comments expressing anger at Rantasmo and Leon Thomas for discussing the homosexual themes of this film in their videos, as if a film they like and with so much violence can't be gay because what would that say about them?
@Sreetamadatta
4 жыл бұрын
yeah i have had these thoughts but i was too afraid to tell these to .y frnds who were fight club fans
@LawderOfficial
2 жыл бұрын
my favorite youtube video ever made for my favorite movie ever made good job dude
@TheRogueWolf
2 ай бұрын
Over the years, I've been amused by all the self-proclaimed "alpha males" pining for Tyler Durden's ideal world, when so many of them would meet violent and miserable ends in it.
@bryannoyce
29 күн бұрын
I don't understand the statement that society encourages toxic masculinity. I was born in 1965 and raised on a uniform stream of "don't me a hero", "it's not worth it", "don't lower yourself to their level". This was from my parents, the school, the news, politicians, even movies said that aggression was not something for normal men. Aggression was for the extraordinary, cops and special forces and so on. Regular guys stood around and watched while Dirty Harry or Rambo took care of the problem. Our Society has been discouraging aggressiveness, apparently since the end of WW2. This idea that we have an increasingly violent society because society values male aggression feels like propaganda. A false history of the time that I have been alive. The only people who said "what did she think was going to happen" or anything like that were immediately and almost uniformly condemned by society. People who made such attitudes know were faced with serious consequences long before the term "cancel culture" had been coined.
@TheManCalledDrHorse
Жыл бұрын
I watched Fight Club for the first time when I was 14, and the whole 'destroying society and shooting yourself in the mouth' was a pretty obvious condemnation of macho ideals to me.
@alfiewillis4893
5 жыл бұрын
This video fucking rules, Dan Olson. Thanks so much for making it.
@Q269
3 жыл бұрын
I hadn't quite realized that Bob was entrapped within Project Mayhem... Whoopsie, that's pretty crazy honestly.
@beaustoker3466
6 жыл бұрын
last question.... who doesn't show their like to dislike ratio??? is it embarrassing?
@d3nd3nd3nd3n
2 жыл бұрын
Great video - Thanks! =) Sorry to hear about the hate you receive!
@VSPhotfries
4 жыл бұрын
I'm not belittling anyone who gets pulled into this, but I find the whole thing entirely alien: I've been an unathletic fat kid for most of my life, never cared about competing (found it rather offputting to be honest, to make anything but a simple game a contest), but never once did I actually feel like I needed to change myself to become 'more manly' even in the face of repeated insults (which made me feel awful, mind you, just not 'wrong'). I mean, even the 'traditionally masculine' things I picked up later - weight lifting, sport shooting, fixing things around the house, etc. - were purely out of genuine interest or a need to improve my health. If anyone asked why I didn't care about football or drinking or showing off, my answer was very simply and honestly 'because I don't give a shit.'
@davidv4018
4 жыл бұрын
What i personally like about this movie (i am not a super fan of). It is that (in my read) what is most dangerous about Tyler Durden, is that he is a lie everyone follows. Here is the paradox: You won't look like Tyler Durden if you don't take care of yourself (and if you are not in the 0.00001% that looks like Brad Pitt), but you won't be Tyler Durden if you take care of yourself. Tyler Durden is the dream that all the fightclub dudes follow but never get to be. On the whole contrary The Narrator didn't have an identity before he knew Durden and he didn't have one after knowing him.
@humblesentiments1553
4 жыл бұрын
Congrats, you are not like other dudes. But just cause it didn't affect you doesn't mean it doesn't affect others. There will always be a few exceptions who don't speak up for the masses. I mean, we have entire communities of incels.
@Bananananos
7 жыл бұрын
I love this. This essay breaches the gap between so-called "meninism" and feminism, and shows that they're actually the same in that they want the same thing. The only difference being that "meninism" is asking the right questions but giving wrong solutions. I wish more of these "meninists" could understand that feminism is not inherently the concept of empowering women and degrading men. Ironically, these meninists are unable to see that their ideas abouttodays society imposing ideals and putting pressure on men from an early age are feminist in nature. So one could say meninists themselves are feminist while denying it because they have the wrong idea what feminism actually means. EDIT: had to change a sentence, english isn't my native language.
@gregoryrau3894
Жыл бұрын
Is there any way we can get this level of analysis of the themes of toxic masculinity in relation to the movie "The Art Of Self Defense"? I appreciate the art of "Fight Club", but I also really dislike the movie. I found the conflict and story arc of the movie very unrelatable. I also find Tyler Durden so insufferable that I could only watch the movie once. "The Art Of Self Defense" deals with a lot of the same themes, but I like the story and symbolism much better.
@bijibadness
6 жыл бұрын
Yeah, yeah-this is toxic, that is toxic, it's all a Britney Spears song. Perhaps society _itself_ is toxic. Perhaps we're all just on the endless road to endless fury and endless misunderstanding. Perhaps I'll go away now. Perhaps you'll find that good news. Perhaps you're right.
@tiberiius
4 жыл бұрын
7:07 i don't see that as blaming women. that is more blaming the fathers for not doing their part.
@bceaser1
6 жыл бұрын
You do understand that there were black people who were members of fight club right?....This was not about race or color, but men. Your feminist view or bias was plain too see instead of looking at it as most viewed it. A movie about men....not hard sir.
@bceaser1
6 жыл бұрын
He was trying to make an observation about Toxic masuculinity. He was wrong about his facts. If that's your idea of fun...go right ahead, but don't get upset when you get called out on it.
@firetarrasque4667
5 жыл бұрын
When did he mention race?
@bceaser1
5 жыл бұрын
@@firetarrasque4667 At the very beginning. It why you see so many people commenting on it.
@zoltankarpati6619
2 жыл бұрын
End of 2021: Commenting on this video again. We need more Dan. This video is great (and i am a huge fan of the movie. But need be, we all need to grow up).
@saintoflastresorts2272
6 ай бұрын
Wow what a great piece of art. I thought it was an exploration of Jungian( Tyler as the shadow, Marla as the animus or anima) concepts with the voyage of a cancer victims acceptance of mortality.
@alanfike
3 жыл бұрын
I'm in somewhat disbelief that someone would take the effort to put you down like that, but more that someone could be so foolishly petty and immature than whether you're telling the truth. Holy shit people are awful sometimes. Maybe it's a lashing out by the inarticulate.
@Beradann
7 жыл бұрын
As a standalone video essay this is exceptional critical thinking. In light of yesterday's inauguration of Trump, a walking embodiment of toxic masculinity, not to mention a seething man-child bereft of any positive male rolemodel to look up to himself - it becomes profound and revelatory. This needs to be a TED talk... or something.
@TallSilhouette
2 жыл бұрын
Fight Club has to be one of the most misunderstood stories of all time. I was certainly guilty of that myself, first watching it as a teen. Understanding it on a deeper level as an adult decades later is no less enjoyable, though.
@EliteOmegaZeroX
7 жыл бұрын
Do I feel a Folding Ideas binge watch coming on? I think I do.
@yousexythang208
5 жыл бұрын
Looking back, this video was probably a turning point for me both in terms of my consumption of KZitem content, and the way I think about myself. Thanks a lot Dan
@lozer85
5 жыл бұрын
I wish videos like this were available to me when I was an adolescent. I have so many regrets. The point in this video about geek culture feeling like a rejection of engrained misogyny is something I wish I'd thought of as a younger man.
@lemonwithalime
5 жыл бұрын
@strontiumXnitrate Leave troll
@Cajaquarius
5 жыл бұрын
@@lemonwithalime Weird how incels always post novels in response, huh?
@pedrogomezid
4 жыл бұрын
strontiumXnitrate go fuck yourself misogynist
@cleve741
4 жыл бұрын
@strontiumXnitrate Maybe you should reflect on why you consider introspection and recognizing your own actions as unthoughtfuly in line with social norms "self flagellation". Are you so unwilling to recognize that you may participate, consciously or unconsciously, in sexist or misogynistic behavior that you consider it sacrosanct? That speak way more about your stubbornness and inability to question your own behavior than anything about society.
@cleve741
4 жыл бұрын
@@attackfighter Gotta love how i order to frame yourself as the rational one you have to invent a backstory for me. The most rational.
@ragsnasramoninus2443
3 жыл бұрын
"If i reject sport, ball and cars, if i reject jock culture, then i have by nature rejected misogyny and toxic masculinity. That's not true" Great Take. Thank you!
@fellowgoyimwhite7630
3 жыл бұрын
Thats a steryotype
@ragsnasramoninus2443
3 жыл бұрын
@@fellowgoyimwhite7630 can you elaborate?
@onyxiris
3 жыл бұрын
@@fellowgoyimwhite7630 Yep, that'd be the point.
@dougthedonkey1805
2 жыл бұрын
A lot of incels need to hear this
@xenosbreed
2 жыл бұрын
Yea, he basically summed up all of the issues of the horrible jokes in Big Bang Theory. 'Oh, haha, he was a racist misogynist, but he's a nerd! Hilarious!' I could never figure out how that show kept going
@saerimner
5 жыл бұрын
I loved Fight Club in my teens and watched it now and then up into my 20s. Then I sort of stopped because I felt uncomfortable about it. Not convinced what I liked about it was particularly wise. Seeing to much of it reflected in the madness that is angry men on the internet. This analysis makes me want to watch it again. It reminded me that the pay-off isn't about being as cool and quotable as Tyler Durden or that punching other dudes might help with your frustration. Rather, if you can tear this stuff down, get rid of the thing whispering in your ear about being a manly man, you can actually make some progress with your life. So thanks :)
@sierra750
5 жыл бұрын
I had a very similar experience! I absolutely fell in love with Fight Club in high school. I empathized with the Narrator so much. (Despite being a girl, I feel like my mom and dad imposed a lot of unhealthy traits onto me often associated with toxic masculinity also I felt immensely dissatisfied with consumerism and corporate culture). This was my favorite movie for years but once I started to become more engaged in leftist ideas and simultaneously saw a bunch of "edgy" dudes on the right idolizing Tyler, I felt kinda grossed out by it and distanced myself from it. This video reminded me why I liked it so much originally and that those guys are the idiots for misunderstanding the entire message.
@estebanfumero3728
4 жыл бұрын
I think we all have different viewings of Fight Club as time passes. I loved it in high school; I had no direction regarding what it took to be considered a success as a man, so looking and talking and leading like Tyler did in the film seemed to be a step in the right direction to my testosterone filled self. Of course, none of those aspirations actually materialized (thankfully), and after a lot of frustration, and plenty of success afterwards, I now see the film as a deconstruction of a masculinity that luckily didn't apply to me and a lot of people my age, and a reflection of unreal standards that the men of previous generations were subjected to. Of course, seeing those structures as a thing of the past rather than something I have to live up to speaks of the privilege I had in growing around the people I did. So who knows?
@aidanwarren4980
2 жыл бұрын
This reminds me of a while ago I saw a video of a typical red-pill type guy (divorced and everything) advertising his pheromone-laced soap. What did he list as the inspiration? He said he was watching the scene in fight club where they make soap and thought "huh, I could make soap". His first scent was Tyler Durden themed, and the next two were James Bond and Top Gun. It's such an appropriate illustration of the literalism that some folks apply to this film. He saw the scene about making soap and his take-away was... make soap. He saw Tyler Durden embodying the toxic masculine ideal that society tells us men should be and his takeaway was "I should be like Tyler Durden". Also, unrelated point: the characters he picked illustrate how male-centric his whole concept of what makes an attractive male is. Women don't talk about Tyler Durden, James Bond or Top Gun as being attractive characters! If you wanted a soap that would attract women based on pop culture characters, you have so many better options!
@camperbbq3026
2 жыл бұрын
wow this proves again how much testosterone a man can lose in just a decade
@stephenchurch1784
Жыл бұрын
Same. I even started a fight club at my school and everything. At least it channeled our anger into beating each other up instead of getting in to trouble elsewhere
@holographicbunny3297
5 жыл бұрын
“I am Jack’s inability to relate to women outside of a social context.”
@fellowgoyimwhite7630
3 жыл бұрын
Marla invades Jack's space and He need to do something ?
@betterlatethannever4536
3 жыл бұрын
@@fellowgoyimwhite7630 It wasn't Jack's space to begin with. He didn't belong there any more than she did.
@neofromthewarnerbrothersic145
2 жыл бұрын
@@fellowgoyimwhite7630 Seriously, how did you end up with the takeaway that "Marla invades Jack's space?" The movie is 100% explicit that Jack's feeling of ownership over this weird hobby is unfounded. Thanks for giving us the "He-Man Women Haters Club" version of events, I guess.
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