The first 100 people to sign up for Blinkist get 20% off! blinkist.com/Max FS5 Mk2 ProRes RAW KIT price➡ bhpho.to/2OgVWdf --- NEW EVA1 RAW Kit (Amazon) ➡ geni.us/XqyQ6F0 UPDATE: A few people are saying that the ProRES RAW clips are not overexposed exposed the same as the S-log but that's not the case. The reason the PrRAW shots look exposed brighter on the before shots is the S-log footage is already debayered and encoded into a REC 709 color space where the RAW data isn't and the software has to interpret how it should look. FCX needs to fix their PrRAW interpretation for Sony cameras to be more accurate out of the gate before your own corrections, as of right now it looks much brighter than it was shot. It should look very similar to the S-log 2 exposure, just like when shooting Canon Cinema RAW Lite with the c200 vs internal 8 bit C-log 3. When other channels YT videos have shown insane amounts of highlights being pulled back from ProRes raw, that's actually not entirely true. That's just like If I were to take a properly exposed image and raise the exposure by 5 stops to blow everything out, and then show you a video pulling down the highlights and pretending thats recovered data (its not). Now with ProRes RAW some of that is actually recovered data you wouldn't have if you were shooting a normal gamma curve, but a big portion of it is the RAW image being interpreted much brighter than necessary. If you edit RED raw footage or C200 RAW its interpreted by the NLE's much more realistically and that's why you don't get "magic" highlight recovery like you may have seen in some comparisons on KZitem. Hope that makes sense! I just got an email from a viewer giving some really good insights and links about ProRes RAW with this camera. This is what he wrote me: "Others have been discussing the issues you are facing with Prores RAW. I hoped that this info might be of some help. I think the issue is that everyone sees 'RAW' and doesn't think about the '12bit' aspect. I didn't. And it turns out that 12bit is not enough to carry all of what the sensor can output. This is why the Sony F55 etc uses 16bit RAW. Its taking things down to 12bit where things are getting lost. It seems that Sony chose the shadow areas to take most of the hit. So anything going over FS RAW is getting truncated before it even leaves the camera, and the Atomos has to do what it can with that data. If you record SLOG internally, however, the processing engine has access to the full output of the sensor and so has more to work with during encoding. It does a much prettier job of things. Alister Chapman of XDCAM user is a really good source on all of this. He says: "12 bit linear raw is actually an impossible format for a 14 stop camera. To truly record 14 stops with linear data requires at least 16 bit data, there just aren’t enough code values with only 12 bits (which is why no one else does it). So Sony cheat and use data rounding to make it work. This reduces the tonal information in the shadows compared to 10 bit 709 or 10 bit log." Alister Chapman www.xdcam-user.com/2017/08/the-pros-and-cons-of-12-bit-linear-raw-or-recording-raw-to-s-log/ www.xdcam-user.com/2017/05/whats-the-difference-between-raw-and-s-log-prores-re-fs5-raw-output/ www.xdcam-user.com/2017/02/raw-and-the-pxw-fs5/ www.xdcam-user.com/2018/07/prores-raw-webinar-how-to-use-prores-raw-with-the-fs5-and-fs7/ Anyway Max. Thanks again for your great work. Thanks, ben" That's very interesting info, and makes sense why we can get such a good output out of S-log 2 with cleaner shadows vs ProRes RAW! Follow on Facebook: facebook.com/MaxYuryevPage/
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Junior Ezeugwu yes! Working on that now. This video was done about a week ago.
@OhShiraz
6 жыл бұрын
Your are a star! I hoped an experienced reviewer compared benefits of Sony FS5mkii with and without new Apple ProRes RAW to Atomos external recorder. A 12-bit format sounds great, but if it is not delivering a clear benefit over internal Sony 8-bit, then it is over kill and you show that clearly. The Atomos recorder with the Panasonic EVA1 to ProRes RAW would be a very interesting test to see and might produce an better image over the Panasonic internal Codec. Or maybe not. ProRes RAW has a bright future as a post production technology. Hope KZitem reserve their policy on revenue front, but it seems they have changed policy and left many other KZitemrs in the same canoe without a paddle.
@tr-postpro
6 жыл бұрын
Hey Max, between the 2017 MBPro and the 2018, which would you choose at the moment for video editing?
@FelixCervantes
6 жыл бұрын
What did you use to mount the Atomos to the FS5 II? That is something I am looking for. Great video.
@UpHillCinema
6 жыл бұрын
I think this is such a hard topic. Because by what you're saying it could be taken that movies should be shot with 8 bit cameras. 99% of movies are 12 bit and up. Yes, proresraw might not be worth it if your shooting wedding videos and youtube content, and build computers that can work with the terrible Long GOP files. But for people that are shooting commercials, docs, narratives, etc, and really care about those skin tones, and ease of use with the files, ProResRAW is a game changer. I have shot with cameras ranging for Alexa's to RED, even the beast F65, and when you pair an FS5 with ProResRAW you can cut between those cameras and you can't tell. I've shot over 5 commercials with FS5 and ProResRAW, and all of us on set and our colorist/DIT love it. It just works. There are different needs for different shooters and productions, and for some of my projects now, agencies are asking about PreResRAW. But like I said, different codecs are there for all our different needs.
@DaveDugdaleColorado
6 жыл бұрын
Thanks for all the hard work here. Moire and lens correction, two items I didn’t think about being an issue shooting raw.
@philipbloom
6 жыл бұрын
Max, your channel is my favourite on YT. Such a mixture of content and always well presented. Keep it up sir!
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Philip Bloom Dang thanks Phillip! That just made my day, especially after the comments saying I don’t know what I’m talking about, this video is garbage and needs to be deleted. You’ve been a huge inspiration to me over these past 5 years I’ve watched your videos and helped push me in everything I do relegated to video. Thanks man 👊
@philipbloom
6 жыл бұрын
Max Yuryev cheers Max! People think raw is like this god like thing that makes everything look better. Your video highlights how that isn’t always the case. Prores raw and the FS5 can be great together and I loved what I got but it does require much more post processing to do what that internal recording does to fix things from the sensor and lens. The detail for me is an improvement but the post time just isn’t worth it for me. The Eva 1 will give you better results to a point. The biggest plus is the much more robust codec with the 12 bit.
@LangstonBall
6 жыл бұрын
Good to see you soldiering on despite that ads nonsense. Thanks for the content! Love you videos. Its really interesting for me coming back to the production world and seeing how far cameras have evolved. When I was doing it, 'Film Loader' was still a job title :)
@HollywoodweddingfilmsGREECE
6 жыл бұрын
Is this legit ??? (Comparing and recovering highlights from these 2 images at 4.59 vs 5.21 ??) They are not overexposed equally. The RAW file recovers twices as much detail as the S-LOG file.
@JedCamara
6 жыл бұрын
Hollywood-Wedding-Films.com I was confused about that too. The Raw footage was SIGNIFICANTLY more over exposed than the Slog 2...if slog was exposed the same you would barely be able to recover anything.
@samsonsunday9813
6 жыл бұрын
Hollywood-Wedding-Films.com you should understand that with the same settings, slog will give a different exposure then raw. So the question is what is fair? Same settings or same "look"
@JedCamara
6 жыл бұрын
Samson Sunday Same look of course! It's a good video, but that aspect is severely flawed.
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Actually, they were overexposed the exact same amount. The reason it looks different on the before shots is the S-log footage is already debayered and encoded into a REC 709 color spoace where the RAW data isn't (on the before/after) When others YT vids have shown you how much you can pull back from ProRes raw that's actually not the case. It's just not interpreted correctly before corrections in the NLE. Just like If I would have taken a properly exposed image, took it into my NLE and raised the exposure by a ton to blow everything out, and then pulled down the highlights and shown you how much I could recover. If you edit RED raw footage or C200 RAW its interpreted by the NLE's more realistically before you apply a REC709 convertion lut or do the adjustments yourself. FCX needs to fix their RAW debayer for Sony cameras to be more accurate out of the gate before your own corrections.
@JedCamara
6 жыл бұрын
Max Yuryev makes sense! Fair play
@Bloodnick
6 жыл бұрын
Another problem with the FS-series is also that the SDI output is 3G, which is optimised for 1080p. 4K requires 6G or higher when recording raw/lossless information from the sensor. So a lot of information is lost when cramming 4K through a smsller bandwidth output...
@wravennn
6 жыл бұрын
Max Yuryev - is your monitor 8bit? Raw 12bit seems like it would be under appreciated being viewed on an 8bit monitor?
@apeusmaximus
6 жыл бұрын
Very nice video - I'd just have liked a little hint to the insightful conclusion of min 10:30. Thank you again for the video and keep up the great work :)
@RichardsWorld
3 жыл бұрын
I guess you didn't get the memo that RAW does not give you more dynamic range.
@timelschner8451
6 жыл бұрын
thanks for the video Max! A little off topic question: what keyboard and mouse do you use? Thanks! and keep up the good work!
@Pepeleshh
6 жыл бұрын
I'm sure this has already been said, but if you are going to compare raw and log, it is colour you should focus your testing on. Both are high dynamic range, but log is very compressed. Compression maintains luma, so you get your dynamic range, but lowers the resolution on the gamma, significantly effecting what you can do in the grade. A great test would be to see how the raw compares to that internal 4:2:0 4k when you are trying to correct a really bad white balance, change the colour of a shirt, or really start pulling around the colours to achieve bold looks. You are totally right though... if time is the priority, the benefit of the camera's internal lens/noise correction is huge (assuming youre using sony lenses).
@Pepeleshh
6 жыл бұрын
Actually it would be great to see the difference between grading the internal 10bit HD, 8bit 4k, and prores and prores raw from the recorder! I love using the FS5, but the 4k internal could definitely do with a boost!
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Thanks, Alex. Yes I think fixing WB would be a good test, but I can correct minor/medium mistakes quite well in 4K 8 bit (less so in 1080P 8bit) and Its very rate that I'm far off on the WB, just like some of these extreme exposure test. Maybe if you don't know what your doing with a camera your exposure or WB could be off by a ton, but then you wouldn't be able to handle the raw workflow anyways.
@Pepeleshh
6 жыл бұрын
Yes totally! lol. I only meant as an extreme example, just like your exposure tests. I imagine that most people using raw will be aiming for a full grade, rather than a quick lut look, so its going to be there that the difference becomes important. So really we are then talking about short films and higher end advertising work. I've found that shooting for clients for youtube or fast turn around, I definitely prefer working in the cinegammas, unless I really need that dynamic range of log. Can get some great looks that way with much less grading time needed. Great to see your comparisons though!
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Thanks! Yes I think if your doing some heavy grading and VFX work that extra bit rate would be worth it, and in that case you'd have the budget for de-noising and sharpening each shot seperately to get the best output.
@GeorgeRTurner
6 жыл бұрын
Great video topic. Well presented. I took advantage of the blinkist offer and I hope it helps you in some way.
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Sweet I hope you enjoy it! I definitely do (and paid full price for it without 20% off lol)
@eirjordan337
6 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the video Max, saved me from a dangerous rabbit hole!
@hakeem-ji
5 жыл бұрын
This is a great video Max .. totally agree with you, no point shooting in RAW for DR purpose, unless you are shooting completely blindly. In that case I agree once again, you should not shoot, first learn to shoot! Thanks for creating this content.
@puddytat62
6 жыл бұрын
Well for starters there is obviously a big difference between LOG curves introduced into the pipeline processing section of the camera and RAW which is directly off the sensor. As such you have to expose correctly if using RAW. LOG really is designed to achieve the greatest dynamic range so an internal shoot with studio lighting is ok if you are pushing things a bit but RAW might be an option because you have more controlled lighting. LOG is basically remapping the image to allow you to get the higher exposed stuff and some darker stuff and on a couple of my cameras can introduce noise so I stick with C LOG 3 on the C300 and it works great indoors and outdoors without any major hiccups for grading or just CC. I have also found that the GH5s outside with CineD produces some pretty stunning images pretty much rivalling the C300 IMO. Not sure I would ever venture into the VLOG for the GH5s and cannot see any benefit with using ProRes Raw. For more controlled scenarios maybe but certainly don't need the headache when say you are "run and gunning" . Truthfully I think Apple released ProRes Raw to keep their editing system relevant today. They are really a phone company who just happen to have an editing application. For some people the FCP system works great and they can certainly pump out tons of material per day but those people will likely never need RAW anything because they are pushing through alot of programming. So perhaps Apple is trying to get more of the commercial people to use FCP because they would use RAW in most cases. But in my opinion C Log3 with either Cine or BT2020 and you are golden. Very magical images. GH5s lacks a bit of the silkiness of the C300 but gets pretty damn close even in CineD. RAW isn't even on the horizon for me and as you point out, you're using a SONY camera with 8 bit 4 2 0 so it simply won't deliver everything you want and certainly won't provide the sensor quality needed to work well with ProRes Raw unless you overexpose I guess. Very very interested in seeing results from your EVA tests. As a general rule I never buy anything version 1 so maybe that EVA 2 will be the hottest camera in 3 years.
@ZaberAnsaryOfficial
6 жыл бұрын
7:39 what are those Purple colors? Banding?
@nicolom6490
6 жыл бұрын
3:14 to be fair the color science and highlight rolloff is WAY better with raw...
@rolandfahnbulleh3921
5 жыл бұрын
I don't want to sound pretentious or pompous but I think its the post process that is not taking full advantage of the raw footage. I use a Color checker and Resolve to create a LUT for every shot I take and I don't have noise once LUT is added but with out that color checker my slog3 shots are always noisy especial at iso 2000 which is not a true native iso multiple. 3200 is this cameras true native iso. I get less noise at iso 2400 than at 2000 and almost no noise at 3200 with nd filter on to stop it down to 2000 range . I would like to see you do this comparison again using a color checker and creating a lut for each (slog2 and raw) also may I ask why you omitted the use of slog3? and possibly keeping camera at native iso 3200 using nd filter to bring down exposure if needed.
@DrewRomano
6 жыл бұрын
would you still bypass the noise correction and lens correction if you didn't shoot raw? say you just shot prores 10 but 422 4k
@allansh828
6 жыл бұрын
Max, you promised, once on live stream, teaching your viewers how to produce HDR video. Pls, I want to know how to make HDR vids.
@EnricoGerominProd
6 жыл бұрын
It's simple, I see a Max video, I press like.
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
👊
@EnricoGerominProd
6 жыл бұрын
Will be fantastic to explore the 120p 4K mode of that combo (we ahve the FS700 and we're about to buy the inferno )
@IproCoGo
6 жыл бұрын
Hi Max, why do companies name products FS5 mk2? The Shark bite dos is more understandable to me.
@videogroszek
6 жыл бұрын
What is this monitor? Please write what the model is.
@CinesterFilms
6 жыл бұрын
Did you set up your library for Rec 2020? Also, did you set everything to none or did you set the raw to log inside the inspector in X?
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
This project was in a Rec 709 timeline since I’m not outputting HDR (and don’t need to for my clients) as for the conversion i tried grading each way and although the colors varied a bit in the end result the dynamic range and noise turned out the same. I did also test in Rec 2020 but I don’t have an HDR monitor.
@CinesterFilms
6 жыл бұрын
Max Yuryev my experience with Prores Raw is that it works best in an hdr project with all the settings set to none but I did not test it against log footage like you did. Regardless, there is a lot more to work with in hdr with that codec from my initial tests. Thanks for making your videos, they’re very informative.
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Thanks! Are you working with an HDR display or using scopes to grade and then outputting HDR? LOG can also be output in HDR so I think you can have a larger difference between the shadows and highlights for the final output if displayed on an HDR monitor or TV but I from what I saw the S-LOG had the same DR there.
@CinesterFilms
6 жыл бұрын
Just scopes but there is a large difference when the library is set to HDR 2020 instead of Rec 709. I don't entirely understand how that codec works but that does seem to make a big difference in how it performs even on a rec 709 timeline.
@nedomarjanovic7226
5 жыл бұрын
Linear raw uses 50% of data only for highlights and a tiny small amount for shadows. That’s why you need 16bit for linear raw. slog2 is mapping data more equal. Have a look at 28:30 kzitem.info/news/bejne/k6mpznuahpl7q4Y
@AllThingsKen
5 жыл бұрын
This is why you overexpose. Anybody who owns the fs5 like me knows not to exposure at base. I overexpose at least 1.5 stops.
@jonniecandito181
2 жыл бұрын
Prores RAW isn't linear raw. Almost no raw is linear raw in reality. Only really the Sigma FP with CDNG is truly 12 bit linear raw.
@TheMrKonov
6 жыл бұрын
Everything I used to know about exposure is better to under expose instead of over.This video made me think the opposite .
@npmrc
6 жыл бұрын
It depends on a gamma curve of your picture profile. Some profiles like overexposing, some not.
@TheMrKonov
6 жыл бұрын
Got it.Thanks!
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Yes, it really depends on your camera and profile. I expose differently depending if I'm shooting with PP1 with my Sony mirrorless or PP6 (both cine gammas)
@bolgarfilm
6 жыл бұрын
What about color?
@papapech
6 жыл бұрын
Hi guys, I need an advice. When I shoot prores raw on FS5, is there a recomended picture profile? I had set slog3 and shot prores raw with shogun inferno and I dont think there is a big space to play around with the exposure in FCPX. So I think If its bad to shoot in log profile when you shoot prores raw??? Thanks
@GuyThomsonVideography
5 жыл бұрын
You gotta use slog 2 s-gamut
@byMetroh
6 жыл бұрын
Hey everyone, ninja V or ninja inferno???
@mannyvidsnyc
6 жыл бұрын
I know @armandobits will completely disagree, he loves his C200 raw! I on the other hand agree with you. Give me the new sensors and super processors
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Manny Vids oh I love the C200. Been using one for a commercial project I’m DPing on.
@mannyvidsnyc
6 жыл бұрын
Max Yuryev hey Max this just actually came to me. Since you are replying I have one question and it’s killing me! I just finished watching your 1950x TR beast PC. Should I build the same or buy a base model 8 core IMac pro? I wonder which is better in terms of performance?
@mannyvidsnyc
6 жыл бұрын
I should add I edit mainly in Pr cc and after effects
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Manny Vids what are you editing?
@mannyvidsnyc
6 жыл бұрын
Max Yuryev 4K multicam footage that is 45mins on average
@MakersLog
6 жыл бұрын
Would love to see the GH5 support ProRes Raw over HDMI...
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
I would love that, then we could use the much smaller and lighter Ninja V.
@upptynegro8473
6 жыл бұрын
LOL ....Dag nab it max You just proved 8 bits and 12 bits does NOTmatter...and the words DYNAMIC RANGE do not mean a damn thing especially if you shoot low light. Shootin flat slog in bright lighting has a huge advantage , one can get the highlights back. In low light no advantage for slog ..shoot standard .why would anyone shoot log in low light when you get better results in standard?
@JamesJacksonFilmz
6 жыл бұрын
The GH5s is one of the few where I would say it's arguable to shoot in the log profile, because the 2nd native ISO is actually a stop higher than 709 (5,000 instead of 2,500)
@upptynegro8473
6 жыл бұрын
Yep MAKO its known ...Thanks for your comment.
@upptynegro8473
6 жыл бұрын
James Jackson Films I used to be a micro four thirds HATER...until the GH5s. And the blackmagic mini 4k camera is gonna have that same sensor. GREAT TIMES!
@JamesJacksonFilmz
6 жыл бұрын
uppty NEGRO is it the same sensor? The dimension on the BMPCC4k shows to be wider than the GH5s
@upptynegro8473
6 жыл бұрын
Its will have approximately the same low light sensitivity...After all its not a photo camera for use in high resolution
@Mike-xw4gm
6 жыл бұрын
Privet I dm u on ig tnx
@geraldundone
5 жыл бұрын
I was going to type a bunch of stuff, but then I read your pinned comment and I think you've covered it all really well. There are definitely some caveats with ProRes Raw and in my opinion it's not in the same ballpark as the proper raw found in some of the other examples you mentioned. It will be interesting to see some future implementations of it, but right now it's not that impressive--unless it provides a solution to a camera that doesn't have any other options. I think you did a reasonable real-world comparison and provided useful information. So thank you and good job! 👍
@MrVh78
3 жыл бұрын
we need you to get some prores raw nerdism in, esp with the a7s3
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
I just got an email from a viewer giving some really good insights and links about ProRes RAW with this camera. This is what he wrote me: "Others have been discussing the issues you are facing with Prores RAW. I hoped that this info might be of some help. I think the issue is that everyone sees 'RAW' and doesn't think about the '12bit' aspect. I didn't. And it turns out that 12bit is not enough to carry all of what the sensor can output. This is why the Sony F55 etc uses 16bit RAW. Its taking things down to 12bit where things are getting lost. It seems that Sony chose the shadow areas to take most of the hit. So anything going over FS RAW is getting truncated before it even leaves the camera, and the Atomos has to do what it can with that data. If you record SLOG internally, however, the processing engine has access to the full output of the sensor and so has more to work with during encoding. It does a much prettier job of things. Alister Chapman of XDCAM user is a really good source on all of this. He says: "12 bit linear raw is actually an impossible format for a 14 stop camera. To truly record 14 stops with linear data requires at least 16 bit data, there just aren’t enough code values with only 12 bits (which is why no one else does it). So Sony cheat and use data rounding to make it work. This reduces the tonal information in the shadows compared to 10 bit 709 or 10 bit log." Alister Chapman www.xdcam-user.com/2017/08/the-pros-and-cons-of-12-bit-linear-raw-or-recording-raw-to-s-log/ www.xdcam-user.com/2017/05/whats-the-difference-between-raw-and-s-log-prores-re-fs5-raw-output/ www.xdcam-user.com/2017/02/raw-and-the-pxw-fs5/ www.xdcam-user.com/2018/07/prores-raw-webinar-how-to-use-prores-raw-with-the-fs5-and-fs7/ Anyway Max. Thanks again for your great work. Thanks, ben" Thats very interesting info, and makes sense why we can get such a good output out of S-log 2 with cleaner shadows vs ProRes RAW.
@Pepeleshh
6 жыл бұрын
That's really useful to know. I've heard plenty of people say 12bit isn't up to scratch, but never had an example of what specifically gets effected before!
@tomcypher3864
6 жыл бұрын
Red monstro is claimed to have 17+ dr stops. With 16 bit codec you are just wasting 100k$:)
@Gleebi
6 жыл бұрын
Interesting. I knew atomos were at it.... Trying to shift inferno sales... It's obviously ahead of its time.
@martinhilligoss6817
6 жыл бұрын
Dude arriraw is 12 bit
@AllThingsKen
6 жыл бұрын
12 bit log raw
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Sorry for all the cuts in this video. It was originally over 20min (I just talked TOO much) so I had to cut it down.
@fadie.b.5120
6 жыл бұрын
Max Yuryev really ? I didnt notice anything, so good job ! 😉 I would even recommend deleting this comment so the viewers dont notice it
@fadie.b.5120
6 жыл бұрын
Max Yuryev sry if my english was wrong i am german
@opascaud
6 жыл бұрын
Hi Max, thanks for the video. As soon as you need to do some advanced color grading, 8 bit 4:2:0 coming from the internal recording is not enough, 10 bit S-log2 or S-log3 in Prores HQ or avid dnxhd with a 4:2:2 chroma subsampling (using an external recorder) is much better and remains less heavy than 12 bits Raw (prores or cinema dng). You could try pulling a chroma key in DaVinci Resolve with an internal 8 bits 4:2:0 s-log file and compare it with a 10 bit prores HQ or dnxhd 4:2:2 s-log, you will have a much harder time to pull a good key with the 8 bits file. If you're just normalizing your log footage just like you are doing in your video, 8 bits 4:2:0 is ok but I strongly discourage anyone to shoot 8 bits 4:2:0 for any advanced grading.
@korrofilms
6 жыл бұрын
Max, it's great that you've delved in to this subject, but there are some major flaws in the language you are using, and the tests you are performing, that are muddying what should be a very simple and clear take home from this video - that raw requires a lot more to get right in post, which may not suit everyone's workflow. To start with, you can't really call this video 'Pro Res RAW vs S-Log2' because one is a format and one is a gamma curve, so you're not comparing raw to S-Log2, you're comparing raw to XAVC-L. Sorry to be pedantic, but it is an important distinction, since there's no reason why the Pro Res RAW footage you shot can't be developed in to S-Log2 (or S-Log3) in post. The important thing here is that internal processing takes away your ability to choose how to develop the raw video that is captured by the sensor, but if the sensor is poor (which I believe the FS5 sensor is) and you are planning on shooting in situations that challenge that sensor, then it is probably a good idea to stick to the internal processing of the camera which, unsurprisingly, has been engineered to hide a lot of the sensor's weaknesses from the end user. Reducing this to 'Pro Res RAW is bad, S-Log2 is good' is nonsensical and could well lead to people shunning a codec that is actually fantastic. Much better to educate your viewers about when and where to use certain settings and formats, than making sweeping statements about Pro Res RAW, which is camera independent and therefore governed by the same 'Shit In Shit Out' rules as any other format.
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Hey Koro, I totally understand that s-log is a gamma curve and not a codec, but for most people when they hear S-log 2 they understand internal and things have to be titles a certain way for video to be found on KZitem. If it’s titled RAW vs XAVC-L almost no one will search for that, and the video won’t be found by those who are in fact interested and would be helped by this video. Im not sure if you watched the full video, but I actually came to the same exact conclusions you did and made similar statements as you at the end.
@Dsk07
6 жыл бұрын
i'm sorry Max, but in this case... the video is not too much accurate because the thecnics you use to develop the footage and color scince of final cut. I think to test RAW develop options you need a experience colorist. The same conclusions that you get here, a lot of people get it between alexa proress4444 and red raw, but when pro people use it on films, no too much people can see the difference.
@kendrickgray2873
5 жыл бұрын
Not going to lie, this is some of the worse footage I ever seen with this camera. Seems like user error. I own this camera.
@JamesJacksonFilmz
6 жыл бұрын
THANK YOU MAX! So many people do not seem to understand that even with many of the FS5 1/2 features, using the same sensor that has been out for almost 7 years is amplified in RAW, because as you said, your taking all the work the processors does and put it on yourself. Great video and great test.
@AllThingsKen
6 жыл бұрын
no
@kendrickgray2873
5 жыл бұрын
Arri's sensor has been out longer and no one complains. Until you have used this camera you can't comment. That statement is just not true.
@dutchgroundmedia
Жыл бұрын
ProRes RAW does allow you to change ISO and WB now in post. It also has tons more color data. So yeah, it's definitely worth shooting ProRes RAW now :)
@chrisjollylikestofilm
5 жыл бұрын
Im sorry but I work with the NFL and they would never not use Pro Res raw vs internal. Perhaps you are having trouble due to lack of color knowledge
@RudyAyoub
6 жыл бұрын
Loving the anti clickbait I know u probably got a hundred asking but is your channel good now?
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Nope, still not fixed...
@RudyAyoub
6 жыл бұрын
Max Yuryev how does youtube think thats even okay in any way
@CraigMarshall_HDvideo4K
Жыл бұрын
I don't understand why you are comparing RAW with 8bit S-Log. The FS5 is a 10 bit 422 camera. Unless of course, you are capturing 4K internally which is 8bit 4:2:0. The FS5 remains an exceptional camera today with it's excellent video form factor, built in NDs and variable ND but in my opinion, it should be considered as an HD camera only. If like me, you record to low cost SSD on tiny a Samurai 'Blade' via the SDI port, you'll achieve almost uncompressed and timecoded 10bit 4:2:2 HD files which will edit straight from the USB 3 caddy even on low spec field laptops. You're 10bit I-Frame files are easily gradable and can be Mastered uncompressed then up-scaled to 4K and beyond using AI such as Topaz where the resulting programme will look far superior to any massively compressed 4K shot internally on the FS5 at 8bit 4:2:0.
@truecuckoo
6 жыл бұрын
Good, thanks. How about gradient banding? 12-bit vs 8-bit should be noticeable, no? SLOG is looking good. I’ve started to shoot HLG on GH5. It’s pretty flexible, but the 8-bit colour is sometimes a disadvantage. All in all, for what I do, HLG is great. I suspect it’s similar to Log in dynamic range.
@EposVox
6 жыл бұрын
Hmmmm, interesting. I also encountered an issue w/ my Panasonic G7 + Ninja Inferno for normal ProRes where accidentally under-exposing has more weird noise in the Pro-Res than would be in-camera. Interesting
@AllThingsKen
6 жыл бұрын
you over exposed kind of weird. flawed test
@ZeekEOSZ
5 жыл бұрын
Glad I'm not missing out on RAW with the Sony PMW-F3. S-Log is great.
@theimperfectadviser
5 жыл бұрын
The internal S Log in the F3 is OK but only in exteriors / daylight situations. You better record 4444 10bits (HD) out of the F3 to an Odyssey 7Q recorder
@cinema-q
4 жыл бұрын
Does ProRes RAW only accept a rec709 signal from the FS5, or does anyone else know why the picture profiles recorded internally (slog2) and externally look different?
4 жыл бұрын
with Nikon Z6 you have a 10bit or even 12 bit image. That is a huge different with Sonys Cameras. I think just Panasonic S1H is better
@roderikrotting
5 жыл бұрын
Great Video Max!! Would you be able to share your PP1 settings for lowlight?
@johnnyray5515
4 жыл бұрын
Wouldn't you get better footage filming in a higher bit than 8bit. Im a beginner, and Im just curious.
@sutv6754
2 жыл бұрын
Excellent. Thank you. Great info and job you have here.
@greentokyo
6 жыл бұрын
Great test Max! How did the file sizes compare? I agree its definitely the camera and the sensor thats the weak point, not the codec. Prores Raw is just the container for whatever is sent to it. Future cameras will surely do better!
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Oh massive difference. ProRes RAW is about 8-10X the bitrate of the internal 8bit 4K (the bitrate varies based off of the data)
@marceloquiroga9052
11 ай бұрын
very good video Max!!!! I'm starting to follow you!!!
@TheCrowleyCrew
6 жыл бұрын
This is an interesting test. Though I am kind of wondering what will happens as prores raw is updated and better integrated. I wonder if it is like comparing Gen 1 mirrorless to established DSLRs and the problems with it are because it is new and still has kinks.
@SongAngelin
6 жыл бұрын
Hey Max! How are you. glad to watch your review, and have you done the FS5 comparison test between 12bit ProRes Raw and 12bit CineDNG Raw? And how many color- depth of Panasonic EVA-1 Raw? Some people say eva-1 is 10bit DNG some people say it is 12bit
@DRAMAFLS_official
6 жыл бұрын
Great video great comparison great to have you back....
@doug_EX
6 жыл бұрын
At 5min you are comparing RAW that is way more overexposed than SLog2 internal...why?
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Its actually exposed the same, the software just showed it brightened before you conform it. I talk about this a bit in my review which is on my channel.
@KrunoslavStifter
6 жыл бұрын
If you are working with enough information such as bit depth and at least 10bit color, the log curve vs linear curve is not that big of a deal as long as you expose proparly. Where is becomes advantage for RAW and linear curve is when dealing with situations where you can't expose enough to the right to avid noises in log. Seem that working with HGL profiles or something like that would be a good compromise between the two in many scenarios. Even if not outputting to HDR.
@Jasongreen357
6 жыл бұрын
If you don't like that old sensor, Please send it to me. I will make do with it.
@gurugamer8632
2 жыл бұрын
Do you recommend to shoot prores raw on A7S iii or use internal slog?
@scrambletheseawolves7744
5 жыл бұрын
This is an interesting test. I agree with you Cliff, I have an FS700 and an Atomos and I shot in all kinds of scenarios with Pro Res Raw, Raw, HDR, and I'm just not seeing what Max is showing in any way. Not saying Max is wrong but not seeing it on my footage. Now I will say I've also been shooting for over 20 years and have taken Alister Chapman's Class when I first bought the FS700 and 7Q. I don't know about the FS5, I'm sure Pro Res Raw will improve with time.
@johnnnd
6 жыл бұрын
your tests are WILDLY inaccurate. i use the shogun inferno paired with the fs5 daily for work i can tell you the difference between prores raw and the internal 8bit codec is MASSIVE. everything looks better shooting to the shogun vs the internal codec. colors are way more pleasing, there’s far more sharpness in the image. you clearly don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. the 2 aren’t comparable, the prores raw files murder the internal fs5 files. you also can shoot at 120p in 4k internally to the fs5. i’m sure you’re a nice dude and you mean well but you’re delivering inaccurate info to the masses. please stop.
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Hey John, like I said in the video these tests were for myself and I'm just sharing my findings maximizing what the S-LOG 2 can do vs ProRes raw for my type of shooting. I see you've made a lot of claims that the difference is "Massive", everything looks better, colors are way more pleasing, more sharpness, and ProRes RAW files murder the internal codec. Can you please show me (or at least give some examples) instead of just statements. #1. Are you shooting with the original FS5 or the FS5 mk2 like I am? The FS5 mk2 has improved colors and processing so maybe that is making less of a difference (if in fact you're shooting with the original FS5). #2. Were you shooting S-LOG 2 with the FS5 and properly exposing it? If you were underexposing S-Log 2 but properly exposing the RAW than that can make a huge difference. 3. As far as sharpness I'm not seeing it. These are in controlled environments and the sharpness is very close. The S-log footage has a slight amount of sharpening added after de-noising, (much less than standard profiles) but the ProRes RAW has more noise which is known to make an image look slightly sharper. Yes, without external recording you cant shoot 4K 120, which I've been doing quite a bit of. I look forward to your reply.
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
Greg Spencer so information on ProRes Raw not offering any more dynamic range than s-log 2 internal and having moire and no lens correction is worthless? And that the Pro res raw does show more color information especially when recovering shadows but it has more noise that is difficult to remove is worthless? I’ve already had multiple people say that the information helped them since they wanted to get the Atmos kit specifically to get better dynamic range, and and a high end professional smart user say that Sony is converting their 14 bit signal into 12 bit output and deciding to sacrifice the shadow information which is why the shadows don’t look as good, where the slog does all the corrections with 14 bit data before it gets converted to 8 bit.
@philipbloom
6 жыл бұрын
Greg Spencer Guys, if you disagree why not make a video showing why?
@gregspencer5089
6 жыл бұрын
Max Yuryev sorry I didn’t mean to be disrespectful. I deleted my comment.
@gregspencer5089
6 жыл бұрын
Philip Bloom I deleted my comment. I respectfully disagree with his findings on this video, just my opinion.
@DacioNerdTV
6 жыл бұрын
can you please make a new hackintosh budget build video. One for 500 to 800 ? I'm building a PC for premiere and the rest of the adobe suite but i have a imac from 2015 with 1.6 ghz and intel core i5 processor with 8 gb of ram and 1tb storage and i still love it and for what i do in editing it gets the job done but i still want a powerful mac just for the OS and for premiere on that also. Spending money on a better iMac is too much and apple's hardware is shit but i would love to build a hackintosh so i can own a mac with better specs and that has mac OS to use. Please, i would love it if you made that video please.
@ejpmusicandvideo
6 жыл бұрын
Man you are like Blinkist yourself Max... Lol. You pack very strong points into a short video. I was excited about the surface features of ProRes RAW but seeing it used in the real world with examples that you presented gives me a new perspective. I'm sure still that there are situations that it would be beneficial... but I see... not every situation. Fantastic video and please keep 'em coming!
@InlandFilmCo
6 жыл бұрын
Dude. This is hitting us at such a perfect time. We’ve been talking about replacing our FS7 with this set-up for the Pro Res RAW. You’ve made us content with what we have! Thank you. PS. We’re out in Liberty Lake, let’s hang out!
@iviaverick52
5 жыл бұрын
damn. I'll take lower noise over 10-bit any day. Everything winds up on youtube anyways which has hella banding.
@joeyoliver579
5 жыл бұрын
Sony came out with a FS5 mK2? I thought the latest was the FS5 II?????
@AllThingsKen
5 жыл бұрын
-_-
@NathanShirley
6 жыл бұрын
RAW color would be nice to see in something like the A7SIII, but otherwise, absolutely, bake in the noise removal, lens correction, etc.
@andrainone
6 жыл бұрын
Good afternoon, first of all I'd like to say that you're very good at what you do. I am an audiovisual producer here in Brazil and I am buying a Sony FS5 II with the ATOMOS SHOGUN INFERNO. My question would be as follows. What is the item you put there on the camera to hold SHOGUN INFERNO? For it seems that this screwed in the camera, my fear and just leave it placed in the camera there in the shoe and slip. I wanted something screwed up like I saw in this video. Help me.
@spector175
4 жыл бұрын
Hi Max I'm curious to know about your opinion on Nikon z6 12bit prores raw footage. How much can we push the footage, how's the Highlight,shadow recovery, highlight rolloff in prores raw , lowlight in comparison to canon eos r 10bit 422 footage?
@TVperson1
6 жыл бұрын
It's got a lot of "green purple noise". How does it compare to a C200.
@AllThingsKen
5 жыл бұрын
smh
@tonylouisvisionvideography3469
6 жыл бұрын
What do you think of V-Log C4K MOV 150M/bps on a Panasonic GH5s?
@ShannonVisuals
6 жыл бұрын
Hey Max! Love this...How do you think it compares to the c200 color wise?
@alecwatson9215
5 жыл бұрын
Hey Max - that's a good test. I have found similar to you- there's not that big an advantage in PRORES Raw over Slog 2. I can say that ProRes Raw does shine in terms of chroma-key. There is little need for Slog in keying situations as you should likely have your dynamics under control, but in terms of usefulness - that is where ProRes Raw shines. Otherwise, I'm with you,, when it comes to big dynamics and outside shots, it's hard to justify carrying the extra weight.
@osirismedia6647
6 жыл бұрын
Great video and interesting. I purchased the Fs5 mark II and Atomos by I don’t intend on shooting raw. I intend on shooting 4K pro res on Atomos. I would have gone for fs7 but since I do many events and corporate jobs the fs5 gave me the best flexibility among jobs. The Atomos comes out for 4K work since you can’t shoot 4K 60 2k 240 without it. Thank you for showing how raw won’t be worth it for most applications.
@TheGeoDaddy
5 жыл бұрын
Atmos is working with Nikon to support ProRes RAW for their Mirrorless camera bodies to Ninja V thru HDMI... us Nikkor lensers...
@Thevikingcam
5 жыл бұрын
The reason is that Sonys 12 bit RAW is LINEAR and thats why it lost data over 12 stops of DR. The RAW output is LINEAR even if ProRess RAW isnt linear the data is already lost.
@AllThingsKen
5 жыл бұрын
prores raw is the linear signal. Nothing wrong with linear other than it being 12 bit. 16 bit linear is what red uses.
@onlyjoshinya
4 жыл бұрын
could someone shed any light on how this would compare to recording externally to 10 bit editing codec? would you be in a sense getting the worst of both worlds as in taking the raw feed without processing but not getting the flexibility in post..? my main concern is the noise and how well the camera processing is dealing with it...
@EricEsser
6 жыл бұрын
Max you make great and super useful videos. I’m so glad you’re still cranking them out. I was worried you’d stop after the whole demonetization thing. Hope that worked out for you. Great video as usual, thanks.
@trancetuberevived1131
4 жыл бұрын
Sweet gods of teal and orange, what is even going on here
@trancetuberevived1131
4 жыл бұрын
Nice informative video regardless, thx
@EdStarkey
6 жыл бұрын
Great review Max! Glad to see a competent reviewer note that RAW has pros and cons. So many think it's the savior of the world, but it's not.
@DennisSchmitz
6 жыл бұрын
The F5 MK2 isn't just a color science update... This looks even better than FS7MKII internal footage, am positively surprised!
@ZaberAnsaryOfficial
6 жыл бұрын
Dennis Schmitz How? He didnt even compare them sbs
@DennisSchmitz
6 жыл бұрын
Zaber Ansary I used the FS7 mk2 for a project once and the footage looks heavily filtered, oversharpened, had low detail and thick noise. Was recording in Cine EI mode using S-log 3.Raw was another world on this camera. On the FS5 MKII internal footage seems to look better than anything internally recorded on the FS7 MK2 I've seen so far in terms of fine detail.
@arsh_DSJ
6 жыл бұрын
Dennis Schmitz Wait a Minute ! are you saying FS5 Mk2 is better than FS7 Mk2 ? i am shooting my next project on Fs7 ! if Fs5 is better, should i get that one ? o think it'll be cheaper to rent than a Fs7 🤔
@ShaneHarderPhoto
6 жыл бұрын
I've shot a ton on the FS7, 7mk ii and own an FS5mk ii with a shogun. Nothing compares to the Pro Res Raw. It's light years ahead of everything else.
@AllThingsKen
6 жыл бұрын
No dude...its the same camera as mark 1 lol. Dont let your eyes fool you. The color science update is just in PP 1
@JeffersonMartinElliott
6 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the detailed analysis Max. Great Video. Your findings are pretty much the same as what I ve experienced.
@w-h-y-
5 жыл бұрын
The prores raw colors are better
@thomasrostowski7052
3 жыл бұрын
What keyboard is that?
@legendp2011
6 жыл бұрын
I'm curuis about white balance changes, as that's the main reason I would shoot raw, also how it compares to canon c200 raw
@DenhefDigital
6 жыл бұрын
What monitors/recorder work with 120fps in 4K?
@momchilyordanov8190
6 жыл бұрын
The S-Log footage looks better as a final result. Especially in terms of more natural colors.
@jeffhalebopp
6 жыл бұрын
So where is the moire coming from? I assume that the internal video vs the hdmi video out should have the exact same raw video before the codecs compress it? Maybe the hdmi out is actually putting out a different downsampled image than the internal processed video to the internal memory card? If you get more moire externally, then I'd never use an external recorder with this camera. I'd take the internal codec any day over moire. I'm trying to figure this one out. Thanks for the great video.
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
You have to use the SDI for raw output. Basically the camera is doing some sort of correction internally (a lot of different corrections actually) vs just raw dat.
@matteobertoli
6 жыл бұрын
I think the main point here is: what are you shooting? If you are doing reviews, corporate videos, weddings and events of course you won’t see any difference shooting RAW or 8bit. And I have no clue why someone that does that kind of stuff should even think about RAW or a camera like that one. You are gonna start see real differences once you drop your clips in davinci and start playing around with masks, qualifiers or pushing the colors around quite a lot. The 8bit will start falling apart right away. So yeah, for some stuff 8bit is totally fine, for more complicated and professional works is not. These, again, are just tests, not real world situations.
@matteobertoli
6 жыл бұрын
Arvid Kracht yeah sure
@jakejames1591
6 жыл бұрын
Love your stuff, man. I’m glad you’re still doing this even after the mess you’re dealing with. I still am very weary about slog 2. I mainly shoot in a 6500 and A7sii. What’s the best method to make sure I’m not losing details in highlights? I’ll typically set lower limit zebras to 107 because I’ve heard that’s where it clips and then I’ll use exposure guide to get right at +2. Is that the simplest way? I’m eventually going to just snag a smallhd and use the lut system with a 709 lut to check it. But without that I’m super cautious.
@GuyThomsonVideography
5 жыл бұрын
Use a cine 4 s gamut. 3cine for a nicer highlight roll off without worrying about shooting to the right with s log
@bashmedia
6 жыл бұрын
hi , what are you using to handle atomos monitor on the camera ? where i can find this part ? thank's
@MaksimYuryev
6 жыл бұрын
this thing, its amazing! geni.us/fVkH
@Newtperc
6 жыл бұрын
A TINY bit of blocking in the skies in the S-log 2 footage but DANG!!
@drutgat2
6 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this. I hope that KZitem/Adsense has seen sense regarding censuring you.
@parmjitsandhu100
6 жыл бұрын
Hi i have a Sony fs5 which picture profile I'm using
@joeyoconnell889
4 жыл бұрын
0:26 How badly did you expose the image here? The noise is really bad
@tommy.mccall
6 жыл бұрын
I always Shoot S-LOG 3 (never 2). What's the advantage of S-LOG 2 over three and might the ProRes Raw be better than S-LOG 3? I am also thinking that Raw may be better in scenes with lots of details and movemement. (Say shooting a waterfall or a field of grass blowing in the wind).
@GuyThomsonVideography
5 жыл бұрын
You have to use s log 2 s gamut as the picture profile with shooting raw on fs5 that's the only profile the Atomos will interpret from the camera giving you full dynamic range of the sensor
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