I love how you recognise this details in the books that can lead to explore much deeper themes about the legendarium, nobody does it like you! I also love how it is possible that Tolkien himself didn't realise how much can be explored of what he created, such is the magnificence of his work
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for that compliment Guille :) and I agree! I'm sure Tolkien would be humbled by the dedication to all he created - the ideas and discussions that take place daily about his work. It was popular when he was around but it's an entirely different beast nowadays!
@guillee12
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook Yes, I suppose that's because the legendarium condensed in the Silmarillion didn't see the masses until he wasn't there, but I imagine that if when published, he was around answering questions and talking about his work, it would be a nuclear bomb
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
@@guillee12 - He seemed to already be overwhelmed by questions as we can see in his letters but nowadays it would be a full time job to reply to questions people have!
@Tysonhayter
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook It really is a fitting tribute to man who dedicated so much of his life to creating this amazing world
@BackwoodsBallin420
2 жыл бұрын
Gandalf basically stood before a demon and through him Eru proclaimed, "Be still and know that I am God!" A very powerful message
@DarthPlato
2 жыл бұрын
Just an observation--but Tolkien, among many other things, was a veteran of the First World War. I can't prove it, but there is a distinct possibility that the confrontation scene with the balrog is based on Verdun. A narrow choke point had become exposed, and the allies rushed to block it before the Germans could exploit it. General Henri Philippe Pétain was tapped to rush to Verdun to take command. One version of the story goes that when asked if the situation could be saved, the general replied, "They shall not pass." It became a rallying cry and numerous posters were made citing the phrase. The bridge scene with Gandalf and the balrog could be a microcosm of what happened at Verdun. Likewise with the Dead Marshes scene or perhaps even the Mordor landscape, which does seem like a WWI no man's land. I don't offer this as a replacement or alternative to your video, but as a complementary. And before anyone gets the bright idea of citing what Tolkien thought of allegory, remember: we draw inspiration from our experiences, education, our relationships, and a good writer can mold this into a scene in a not-so-necessarily allegorical way.
@DavidRLentz
2 жыл бұрын
What is the etymology of "balrog"? Of "Valaraukar" (in Quenya).
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
It's apparently the equivalent of Valarauko in Quenya - "Demon of Power". Though, there is a different origin, ñgwalarauko, which means "Demon of Torment".
@IrishIronArmalite
2 жыл бұрын
To those familiar with the Catholic Faith, this scene is very profound. It’s quite a bit like an Exorcism, Gandalf declares himself a servant of God, names the demon, and asserts his authority over it in the name of God. I absolutely LOVE all of Tolkien’s works, and his faith and his interpretations of it throughout his works has only helped to guide and strengthen me all my life. Rest In Peace, JRR Tolkien
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Interesting that you make that comparison Jonas, I was (relatively) recently watching a film with an exorcism and I specifically remember it reminding me of this confrontation. Gandalf's constant reminder and reiteration of whom and what he serves - asserting authority as you say. Thanks for the comment!
@iusethisnameformygoogleacc1013
2 жыл бұрын
To those who went to catholic school, being forced to look at these films through a catholic lens did a lot of harm to my ability to actually like The Lord of the Rings.
@MannyBrum
2 жыл бұрын
There's a lot of weight in what Gandalf says. When he says the Balrog cannot pass, he is saying with full faith that it does not have the power or authority to defy him as a servant of God. Sir Ian does an excellent job in the movies of portraying that authority.
@jamesh6024
2 жыл бұрын
Damn fine point! Never even occurred to me to see this as a sort of exorcism.
@Beer_Dad1975
2 жыл бұрын
It's like Catholicism, only less fantastical and dogmatic 😀(ex-catholic)
@dlevi67
2 жыл бұрын
One other point re: "the flame of Anor" - in one of the various versions of the legends that didn't make it into the Silmarillion, Arien (or Urwen) is an extremely powerful Maia of fire. Melkor tries to seduce her and make her his queen, but fails as she rejects him totally, and burns him into a charred, grey shape when he rapes her. That would make the opposition of the flame of Anor with the flame of Udûn even more poignant as a symbol of rejection of the dominion of Melkor over Middle-Earth.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Great point. I do cover that history in my video "Of Melkor and the Secret Fire" - you may enjoy that one as I specifically talk about the earlier versions of the Secret Fire in relation to the assault of Melkor.
@specialnewb9821
2 жыл бұрын
I was actually completely unaware the ring of fire theory was so popular. To me it was obvious that he meant the Sun and the tree's light.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
I thought so too but yeah it's something that pops up time and time again on different sites when examining his speech. It's never meant that to me in my readings at all.
@annodomini975
2 жыл бұрын
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant and comprehensive take on the deep spiritual tones of the words. Tolkein crafting these words is truly the definition of spells and word-smithing. Glad to see other people also qualify the importance of lore in these few pages alone. Shows serious depth by the creator. Great Video.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Great comment AD, I agree that in one paragraph it demonstrates the skill and wonder of Tolkien. One of the best moments in all the stories. Thanks, a lot for your words :)
@BJETNT
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah this guy is good!!!
@annodomini975
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook I'm currently in a spiritual hole, and have often spent alot of time thinking about the speech and the sheer faith Gandalf would have in order to face down the Balrog. Love that you went into the authority of the highest in the speech, that him stating "you cannot pass" isn't just an order, it's a fact. As unbreakable as the foundations of the earth or that the world would have to be upside down and evil reign. As so eloquently put, as a "servant of the secret fire" and by that authority it cannot pass. Shout out to the film's for portraying it in a sheer awesome scene, even McKellen's transliteration and acting with the fear in his face "you shall not pass" captures the meaning and hits just even harder.
@miguelangelgarciaalva2538
2 жыл бұрын
I love your interpretation, I always thought that Gandalf was almost performing an exorcism, diminishing the power of that Devil and letting him know who he was and to whom he was serving.
@Ower8x
Жыл бұрын
That's basically what it is ... an angel casting out a devil ...
@bsa45acp
2 жыл бұрын
A reference to the White Fire appears again in LOTR, Return of the King page 94. "Like thunder they broke upon the enemy on either flank of the retreat; but one rider outran them all, swift as the wind in the grass: Shadowfax bore him, shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised hand. The Nazgul screeched and sweat away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe." Your analysis of the Flame of Arnor from a deep spiritual that Tolkien operated from deepens further my appreciation of this literary genius. Thank You!
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
You are welcome, and yes I didn't mention those references. I should have in relation to Tolkien carrying forward the white fire/flame idea though! Thanks for reminding me of them :)
@freeshrugs1
2 жыл бұрын
I was one of those that made the assumption that 'flame of anor' meant the ring of power, but it makes so much sense that Gandalf would invoke an even greater power, one he trusted his enemy would know and fear. I love how Tolkien's work has so many layers of power and authority on both sides of good and evil, and even individuals (nameless things/ ungoliant) that aren't beholden to either side. Another great analysis. Thank you for your work.
@paulemge9156
2 жыл бұрын
Me too. When actually thinking about it , it makes a lot more sense , the Balrog probably wouldn’t even know about the rings of power
@freeshrugs1
2 жыл бұрын
I agree. And if in the off chance he did know of it, perhaps he'd respect it as the powerful elven artifact that it was, but otherwise not be afraid of it. A balrog who has lived through all the ages of the world would likely consider itself an order of magnitude beyond the power of any single elven craft. The Sun, however, is a power that put fear in the heart of even his master.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Good comment, I agree with your analysis and I like that Tolkien isn't explicit when talking about which powers are being invoked, where beings and creatures come from, but we can discuss it or even work it out. It's like the people in the world writing down the stories don't know everything either. Power as a concept is something I want to dedicate videos to because I think it's quite a misunderstood concept when it comes to Tolkien!
@indio4-215
2 жыл бұрын
@@freeshrugs1 Albeit, Melkor was known as Morgoth by the time the Sun arose, and obviously in that abysmal state, he was vastly diminished from what he was once in his prime as the greatest of the Valar.
@brianofphobos8862
2 жыл бұрын
'Wielder of the secret fire" refers to the great ring. This is why Gandalf was so skilled in the use of fire an why fire was ineffective against him.
@LearnRunes
2 жыл бұрын
Gandalf is quite possibly my favourite character in LOTR.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Gandalf is certainly one of my favourite characters. Especially in the first volume of LotR!
@MikaelKKarlsson
2 жыл бұрын
Gandalf the Grey, indeed. 🙂
@Hero_Of_Old
2 жыл бұрын
Same
@billyalarie929
2 жыл бұрын
He certainly is an effective one.
@charlottegoldman3580
2 жыл бұрын
I love the books but Mckellens delivery was chilling. When he says "I am a servant of the secret fire..." almost seems as if he's psyching *himself* up for this fight. Then he basically repeats it but stronger. It's just such an amazingly well done scene.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
I do think it's one of the best scenes of the movies!
@str.77
2 жыл бұрын
It is one of the best scenes in the movies, not the least thanks to letting Tolkien's actual words stand. In contrast, scenes like Eowyn slaying the Witch-king or Frodo taking the ring are somewhat lessened by changing around the actual words: "I am no man!" is much less powerful than "No man I am!" and "The ring is mine!" is just pointless.
@DJKM000
2 жыл бұрын
I've always interpreted Gandalf's declaration to mean: "I am a servant of the Secret Fire," - I serve Eru, I'm a Maiar, like you, who sang in the Music of the Spheres, and then helped to create the world. "wielder of the flame of Anor" - I wield the fire of the Sun. As you know, the only ones who can do that are fire element Maiar. "You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you," - You cannot pass. Although you're a fire element Maiar, probably accustomed to using your fire to help you get your way, I'm a fire element Maiar too, so your dark fire is not going to do anything to me. "flame of Udun" - I know all I need to know about you, corrupted fire element Maiar. You who turned away from Eru in favour of the weaker Meklor, hid out in Meklor's fortress, Udun, trying to see yourself as one of the big fish in a small pond. "Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass." - Go run back to Meklor and hide. Oops, wait, Meklor was defeated, and is locked away until the end of time, and you ran. :P You cannot pass.
@whynottalklikeapirat
2 жыл бұрын
“Melkor”
@frozen8538
2 жыл бұрын
No such thing as a fire element Maiar.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Probably just meaning "Spirit of Fire" which the Balrog was in its origin.
@gregorde
2 жыл бұрын
The secret fire is rather clearly the Holy Spirit
@MerkhVision
2 жыл бұрын
That’s a great and kinda humorous paraphrasing of it! Lol
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
It's been well documented through recent community posts that I've wanted to make this video since starting the channel. I'm happy to finally have my own thoughts on this topic on The Red Book channel and not someone else's. I hope everyone enjoys it! The next couple of weeks will be busy but I hope I can have another video made in that time. As always, I'll keep everyone updated through community posts! Consider becoming a member of the channel for early access to videos and member only polls - kzitem.info/rock/POz2P0OxWp0ij0K4BsLsRwjoin
@Enerdhil
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for all your hard work and high quality content. Have a wonderful Christmas/Holiday season.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
@@Enerdhil You too! I might get another video out but we will see how it goes. If not, I'll be back with content before you know it :D
@MistaGify
2 жыл бұрын
Another great video! I already knew most of what you said about all 3 aspects of Gandalf's speech, but I never realised just how effective they were when put together, how dismissive they were of the Balrog and how badass they made the old wizard appear in the monster's eyes.
@istari0
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook Either way, we will be here waiting to see what you create next.
@tominiowa2513
2 жыл бұрын
I would like a video on Dagor Dagorath, particularly addressing the following: - Why did Christopher Tolkien and Guy Gavriel Kay leave Dagor Dagorath out of the published Silmarillion, and was this a mistake? - Should Dagor Dagorath be excluded from the legendarium, or included as something Tolkien would eventually have revised and included in The Silmarillion if he had lived long enough? - Is Dagor Dagorath necessary for Ar-Pharazôn and his army, Túrin Turambar, Fëanor, Saruman, and all the Maia spirts that served Morgoth to have a chance of redemption and therefore be allowed to participate in the Second Music of the Ainur, or would some other mechanism allow for redemption? - What happens to Ainur and other supernatural creatures (e.g., Ungoliant) that fight in Dagor Dagorath on the side of Morgoth? After their deaths in that battle, are they banished into the void with no chance of ever re-entering Eä, or are they reabsorbed back into the mind of Eru Ilúvatar from whence they originally came?
@Enerdhil
2 жыл бұрын
It is no accident that Manwe, the Valar closest to the will of Iluvatar, chose Olorin to represent him in Middle Earth. It is clear from the beginning that Gandalf is closest in heart to Iluvatar and has received special GRACE from him, not only at the Bridge, but also on the peak of the mountain, where he was allowed to live and was empowered, when he should have died.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Yes, Gandalf would not have returned to Middle-earth without Eru's will. His body would have lay on the peak and his spirit would not have returned to it. I think Tolkien also makes a point of associating Gandalf with quite a few of the Valar in order to show his wisdom and eagerness to learn and grow. He shares in many gifts, and obviously his humility in not wanting to go to Middle-earth actually shows he's the right Maia to send. It's right that he's associated with Manwe.
@indio4-215
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook Olórin was associated with Manwë, Varda, Nienna, and Irmo, correct? If so, that's quite the pedigree, with three out of four being amongst the Aratar.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
@@indio4-215 I think it's showing the wisdom of Olorin. He was a Maia of Manwe and Varda it seems but walked among the others in other places, learning from them - dwelling Lorien (obviously under Irmo) and learning from Nienna - patience and pity, etc. I think all of this contributes to his wisdom.
@indio4-215
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook Indeed, and if memory serves, Olórin was counted as the wisest amongst the Maiar, if so, then it's no surprise considering who he learned from. And another thing, thank you for providing such quality, meaningful, and thought-provoking content on a daily basis, and I hope to see you continue doing this for many years to come, as you do the Tolkien fandom at large a huge service, so cheers! 🍺
@Ravenesque
2 жыл бұрын
I think what a lot of poeple forget is that the Balrog, Sauron and Gandalf are all the same rank. They are all Maiar. Thus, it is reasonable for such a talk and a fight happen between two such foes.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Indeed and it's one reason I don't lean towards the Ring of Fire explanation. Their 'talk' and battle of wills is something greater and more ancient.
@_semih_
2 жыл бұрын
Gandalf and Balrogs were likely the same rank but Sauron not, he was far higher order Maia. In a footnote to Letter 183, Tolkien says that Sauron was "of the same kind [i.e., a Maia] as Gandalf and Saruman, *but of a far higher order."* And all the Balrogs were lesser than him: "Both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits *-some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs"* [The History of Middle Earth Vol 10: Morgoth’s Ring. Myths Transformed]
@thebrotherskrynn
2 жыл бұрын
Love the part involving Gandalf and the Balrog and the explanation there, have to admit that you give it so much thought. We have here a clash of the 'fire of the sun' as you kind of put it, but also a kind of 'pure-fire' (which may be associated with the colour white in a lot of artworks), and the 'red fire' of the Balrog. There is considerable colour-psychology at work here, with 'White' oft-associated with purity as you here noted, where red is a colour of 'passion' and 'rage', and given how the Balrog is often also associated with darkness (a colour of evil in classical colour-psychology). It seems that there's a statement being made here in regards to the nature of the two predominant figures and the kinds of flames they represent. Gandalf's is good and is representative of Eru and the Balrog is representative of Melkor (who is still technically out there in the void). Just something I noticed in this video (I know you covered all this) but it is still fascinating to go over it again. The use of colours in Tolkien's descriptions reveal also the attention to detail Tolkien put into his scenes, and add to his mythology (another ex might be Gurthang, being a black sword a representation of Turin's inner darkness, where his helm often appears golden, which is a regal colour associated with good but also greed). This video was perfect, really enjoyed it and your lovely Scottish accent, and really hope you do that history of Angband series that you want to do.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
I agree with your assessment and I think Tolkien would have kept the red fire descriptions intact if he didn't then associate red fire with the "Red Ring" of Gandalf, which as I say in the video was a later addition. Black and shadow became more associated with the Balrog. White always remained as the simple of purity, not just in terms of fire and flame but even with the likes of Saruman and the Istari. Unbroken and uncorrupted white light. The Gurthang connection is a good one as well. Making me want to maybe do an importance of colour video - I'll add it to the mountain of ideas people give me in these comments! Angband will definitely be a video. I remembered during my research that in early versions, Angband really was more like how we would view hell. The spirits of the departed would sometimes be rejected passage to Mandos and would be driven over the mountains where Melkor would ensnare them and take them to Angband, the "Hells of Iron". It's worth covering I think!
@Enerdhil
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook Angband would be much appreciated. Please give us an idea of what the heck Sauron was doing during the three ages Melkor was serving time in Mandos.
@waltonsmith7210
2 жыл бұрын
I always thought "servant of the Secret Fire" could basically be paraphrased as "Servant of the Holy Spirit."
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
That's exactly how I would paraphrase it but obviously mentioning the Holy Spirit directly in The Lord of the Rings would be...strange? According to Tolkien that's what that 'power' is though.
@waltonsmith7210
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook Tolkien is the closest anyone's ever come to making christianity and christian concepts seem cool to me,and that's a hell of an achievement lol. I think Peter Jackson and Ian McKellan nailed this scene so perfectly in the movie, Gandalf has such shakespearean gravitas and power. Its such an awesome high fabtasy sequence its easy to overlook the fact its an angel and a demon confronting each other.
@stephencraft2618
2 жыл бұрын
Amen. Praise the Holy Spirit.
@eudyptes5046
2 жыл бұрын
And thus an old fantasy story made it's way into a new one.
@DavidRLentz
2 жыл бұрын
You conflate folklore with theology.
@deadfr0g
2 жыл бұрын
Balrog: _[puffs out its chest]_ Gandalf: “My dad could beat up your dad!”
@grallonsphere271
2 жыл бұрын
I seem to recall a version where Eru gave Varda a 'new light from beyond EA', to be placed into the new vessel of the Sun under the custody of Arien. Which prompted Melkor to assail Arien and 'ravish' her, in order to get control of that light. I always understood that Gandalf's bit about "...weilder of the flame of Anor" referred to that. Thus, the wizard serves 'the Secret Fire' (Illuvatar's creative spirit) and wields the 'Flame of Anor' (the latest, unsullied, manifestation of said creative spirit in Arda Marred.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
That's true, I discuss that in my video "Of Melkor and the Secret Fire". :) it ties in nicely with those early versions when you put it like that.
@shawngillogly6873
2 жыл бұрын
Well put. I had always considered it the self-revelation of Gandalf as an emissary of Valinor, vs the faded power of Melkor. A power too proud to bend to Sauron. But decayed by the defeat of the First, greatest, Dark Lord. Also, I suspect that the Balrog, not being a servant of Sauron, is what permits Gandalf to act in his true office, as a Maia. And not merely the embodied emissary and advisor to the Free Peoples. Gandalf, by extension, is then saying, "Once, we were equals. But you have diminished, as your master did. I remain."
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Nice thoughts there, especially in relation to the relationship, or lack of relationship, with Sauron. It's interesting to think of that power dynamic between them!
@zoit303
2 жыл бұрын
I know this question probably have been raised a lot of times, but as a Maia and not a servant of Sauron, is it not conceivable that the Balrog might wield the ring itself? I have a hard time accepting that such a powerful being wouldn’t have its own agency and desires. Isn’t that the gloomiest of all possible outcomes in the third age?
@misterwhalrus7334
Жыл бұрын
the balrog could wield the ring, being of the same order of creature, good that Gandalf won
@istari0
2 жыл бұрын
Great video! I never thought Gandalf was referring to Narya; it seemed obvious to me Gandalf was referring to those who had sent him to aid the Free Peoples. Besides, Durin's Bane, at least as far as I know, had been in Moria since late First/early Second Age. Why would it know about the Rings of Power?
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Very true, some other users have brought up that point about Durin's Bane lack of knowledge of Rings of Power - I wish I even briefly mentioned it!
@albdamned577
2 жыл бұрын
I always thought of flame of Anor and flame of Udun as being analogous to the Sun and the demiurges' fire in Plato's cave respectively. The analogy has the prisoners looking at shadows on a wall, which is supposed to be how people process the everyday senses. The demiurges can put things in between the wall and the fire to make shadows, which can then be seen on the wall. However the fire is greatly out done by the sun (truth/goodness/beauty), which would also have the power to undo any shadow, if it were to seep down into the cave. The fire is artificial, while the sun is natural. The fire requires work to maintain while the sun simply exists. This is very similar to how the Vala could "create" things. Tolkien definitely had some influence from platonic cosmology, as Catholicism has influence from it. Good and evil are not opposing forces, but Good is substance, while evil is void. Melkor started off having more strength than all the Vala combine (before Tulkas), but by the times of the war with the elves could be harmed by an elf, albeit an Elven king from the undying lands. He was no longer able to change forms, much like Sauron later on. This is because they continuously "unburdened" themselves of substance in order to do evil. Light has no agency, it is something given form from the source and sent off (like how the Vala are simply carrying out the directions of Eru). Darkness however can have a multitude of meanings, which gives a certain latitude of freedom. For example a silhouette of an image can be interrupted as many things, but light showing something is 1 thing. This is the metaphorical power of evil in Tolkien. However, a being of light doesn't fear shadow, as the shadow must conform around the light in order to survive. If it tries to confront light, darkness is destroyed utterly.
@Khoditsky
2 жыл бұрын
Utummno sounds simular to the slavic word for darkness темно (temno). Given how tolkien drew inspiration from many languages of Europe including slavic, i think its clear Gandalf is stating that he serves and can weild the light (God) vs the dimmer, weakened fire of morgoths balrog. It cannot be a reference to the ring, as he is morgoths balrog and who knows how long hes been hiding in the dark. The rings wouldve been after his time so he wouldn't know what it is or care.
@elliotcrossan6290
2 жыл бұрын
I've never come across a Tolkien KZitem channel as in-depth as this before. I love it! I thought the flame of Anor being Gandalf's ring was basically canon before this video 😂
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the compliment Elliot :) And, well...canon can be tricky. I definitely don't want to ruin the idea of Narya being the meaning for anyone - it's just one I don't share and I hopefully backed up my point. If people choose to believe it refers to Gandalf's ring, I don't have a problem with that :D
@elliotcrossan6290
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook I think your interpretation probably makes more sense -- you explained it very well
@neant2046
2 жыл бұрын
This is not a good Balrog video. This is the perfect Balrog video! And the best part of it is its uniqueness ;) I support your theory that Gandalf is referring to the authority that stands behind him. It seems that Narya, Nenya, and Vilya rather preserve and enhance the natural talents and powers of those who wear them than endow them with extra powers, so it would be strange if Gandalf was referring to the ring rather than the original source of his power. That will be a little bit off-topic, but the scene of his confrontation with the Balrog is not the only one where Gandalf’s character is strongly associated with the symbolic meaning of the Sun - one of the most spectacular, inspiring and powerful moments in the LOTR is Gandalf’s appearance in Helm's Deep in the rays of the dawn, horrifying enemies with his radiance. If we take your theory as a basis, then this way of appearance has not only strategic and psychological, but also spiritual meaning - some kind of blessing, a sign for Men that the light of Eru is still with them, a sign of hope - and it makes much more sense this way. P.S. The thumbnail image is one of my favourites, it literally allows to feel what a Balrog is in essence.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks! Happy this one appeals as I really wanted it to make it one of the best. I also love the thumbnail image, even if the Balrog's actual size is smaller, it gives that otherworldly horror feel. If Gandalf wasn't blatantly referencing such mammoth forces, I would certainly take Narya as one of the references but as I say in the video, the power of Narya is itself minimal compared to the holy forces Gandalf references. I would agree with your assessment. Gandalf clearly uses light to inspire hope in others. We see it when he chases the Nazgul away when they attack forces outside of Minas Tirith, we see it at Helm's Deep like you say, and we see it when he helps Theoden realise his strength in the Golden Hall. I want to do some video about that but another channel has a 'magic' series where they focused on light. I'll basically have to wait a while before making mine!
@neant2046
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook Yes, Gandalf’s reference to the greater forces that stand behind him is crystal clear here, and his “you cannot pass” sounds like a command, not just a manifestation of his own power, that is why the Balrog begins to perceive him as a serious opponent. I bet your series will be better, you always dig deeper and find things that no one seems to notice.
@andygreen7314
2 жыл бұрын
Personally I always assumed when he referred to being a servant of the secret fire and weilder of the flame of Anor, he is referring directly to Eru. He was a Maiar of Varda, and chosen by Varda against Sauron. Varda is of course the Valar of light and she was gifted a portion of Eru's light the flame imperishable, and so Gandalf is indirectly a servant of Eru and draws his authority from Eru via his links with Varda and the power Eru invested in her.
@beatleblev
2 жыл бұрын
Bravo! Your analysis is spot on. This is my second favorite scene in all of the LotR. 1. The first rule of The Rings of Power club is" No one talks about the Rings of Power. So, Gandalf is probably not going to even hint to his fallen kin about the invisible Ring he is wearing. 2. Narya is adjacent to Anor in that the Ring represents the memory of the light of a Silmaril, a part of the same light which burns at the heart of the Sun. The Sun, in turn is the public face of the Secret Fire that once burned above and now burns in the center, or heart of Arda. Narya and Anor both give warmth and relief from depression and nurture life and light, a reflection of the Secret Fire that gives life and substance to all of Ea. 3. In opposition to flame wielded by Gandalf, the Flame of Udun, is the knockoff. The facsimile that is to the Secret Fire what Utumno is to to the Timeless Halls of Eru. The sort of "Secret Fire" sold on the street at the tourist markets. Gandalf is also reminding Durin's Bane who he is, and who he could and should have been. How far you have fallen Maia of Varda, to be napping in the bowels of Middle Earth instead of out among the stars from whence you came? Great video! Cheers!
@platospotatoes6205
2 жыл бұрын
I'm surprised he didn't bring up the "ring club" bit, as that is more explicitly stated in the books when discussing Galadriel's ring.
@docopoper
2 жыл бұрын
Woah, he says Anor. My brain always auto-corrected that to Arnor. I thought the flame of Arnor was referring to his ring because he got it in the grey heavens and that's kinda near Arnor. It being a reference to the light of the sun makes so much more sense. It would be nice to have a video about Utumno. I honestly had forgotten it was a distinct thing from Angband. Much of the lotr content I've seen on KZitem has been Silmarillion focused, so it would be nice to hear a discussion about the differences between the two fortresses, and what Morgoth did while there vs what he did later while in Angband. Like, did he suffuse his power into the world while in Utumno? Is that why Angband was so much lesser? What corruptions did he perform in each place? He clearly had enough power while in Angband to invent winged dragons, why was he able to do this in Angband and not Utumno? Are there any stories about the children of Iluvatar interacting with Utumno? From watching KZitem, most of what I know from that time period is: The elves work up, Morgoth corrupted some of them at some point around this time. They got lead west, some of them rejected it and stayed behind. They were brought on an island over to Valinor. Then the valar went and beat up Morgoth and captured him for a while.
@Enerdhil
2 жыл бұрын
Then you type flame of Arnor" 😂😆🤣
@nickolas.vicente
2 жыл бұрын
It also sounds like what Ian McKellan says in the film 🤷♂️
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
It's a common misconception to be honest. I've seen it written down by many as "Arnor" when they talk about this scene. I'd like to talk about Utumno and especially Angband. I'm sure that in my discussion of Angband's early history in the text, it will end up involving Utumno as a consequence. There's quite a bit to discuss. And your summary is pretty much right from what it says in The Silmarillion actually! How they actually reached Valinor is really found in HoMe and not The Silmarillion - which doesn't go into massive detail.
@tominiowa2513
2 жыл бұрын
Better than "Flame of Udon" (for the correct Flame of Udûn) which is what happens when you let all the water in your noodle pot boil away (if the giant in _Farmer Giles of Ham_ had been Japanese).
@shannonmcstormy5021
2 жыл бұрын
I think your argument about "The Flame of Anor" is a strong one. I had always thought that Gandalf was speaking about the ring of power. But what always bothered me in the decades since first reading it was, I was under the impression that the location of the 3 Elvin rings of power were not known to Sauron. Sauron had tried to acquire all the rings of power back to him. Gandalf IMO, though it was at least a possibility that he could loose this fight (lots of Balrogs in the world, how strong was the one he faced?). The rings were invisible, but not incorporeal, meaning that if Gandalf was beaten/unconscious or outright killed, the Balrog could look for it if it knew it was there. Plus, why show all his hand? Gandalf was clever and cunning and a ring of power would certainly boost him. But I had never considered that he may have been speaking of God, that he was a servant of God, THE creator, Eru Ilúvatar. Eru was on the side of good (despite creating Melkor) and reminding the Balrog of this could possibly get it to go away, that the risk may possibly not be worth any possible gains. While a ring of power isn't THE ring of power, the One Ring, it is still an ancient ring of power and no small potatoes in the power department. (Especially considering that of all the 3 Elvin rings of power, the one Gandalf wore was arguably the most potent in terms of help in an individual fight of this nature.) That said, even the One Ring is nothing compared to the power of Eru, particularly given that Tolkien was VERY religious and devote (if memory still serves this elderly grandmother). Finally, your argument about what Gandalf is talking about is also supported in that IF Gandalf was talking about the ring of power he carried, why not say that outright? If he's trying to get the Balrog to walk away because there is nothing really to be gained and he might get his butt kicked, saying bluntly that Gandalf has a ring of power might help. P.s. I have also always wondered if the Balrog knew it was fighting Gandalf. Gandalf knew WHAT he was fighting, but not which Balrog specifically. What about the Balrog? I think its arguable, though not certain, that the Balrog knew it was facing another Maia? But did it know that Maia's name? Not sure if it did that would help Gandalf as Gandalf wasn't known for being a bad ass in the ages preceding this one. What do others think of this last question ? .
@AltFromTheLimbo
2 жыл бұрын
But Eru never created Melkor. Melkor is a part of Eru. P.S. And Eru is not on the side of good. There's no Good without Evil, Eru is simply everything that is.
@Ower8x
Жыл бұрын
@@AltFromTheLimbo that is you imposing your own views ... Tolkiens would be formed by his traditional catholicism in which good can exist without evil since evil is not its own thing but a twisting / corruption / disordering of good ... as such Eru would be good the ultimate good in fact.
@DoubleRaven00
2 жыл бұрын
Fantastic video. I had long ago heard the ring of fire theory. This video convinced me otherwise - makes more sense. Gandalf himself is the wielder of the Secret Fire. With or without the ring.
@neuezeal8510
2 жыл бұрын
I used a combination of Gandalf's speech and the priest's from The Exorcist when I was alone working night shifts at a (seemingly) haunted FedEx. Whether or not it was actually haunted, it worked and I was able to finish my homework because nobody really comes in at those hours.
@notjohn5957
2 жыл бұрын
Dune's Litany Against Fear is also calming. Both LoTR and Dune were inspired by The Lord, from who all blessings flow.
@TolkienLorePodcast
2 жыл бұрын
Nice job, and especially useful going back through old drafts to compare how the language changed.
@andrewpaige1194
2 жыл бұрын
I am/was pretty sure “flame of udûn” is just what Gandalf is calling the balrog, as a title, Instead of saying “the dark fire shall not avail you, balrog!”. As u said udûn means utumno, and a balrog is a “flame of utumno”, so a balrog is quite literally a “flame of udûn” which obviously sounds much more eloquent and poetic than “balrog”. and who knows, maybe it’s even a more negative derogatory insulting title, or something.
@Looshmal
2 жыл бұрын
I think it's fantastic that you brought up Tolkien's faith and it's shaping of his work. It's a joy of sorts to hear it said among the current noise surrounding and infiltrating the current conversation. In it's way, his works are a subversive way to introduce Christianity generally and Catholicism specifically. It's another sign of his bravery and integrity that he wrote and perfected his works in a time and place where Catholics were seen as "less than". Great dive as usual, sir!
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
In conversations about things like the Secret Fire, it's almost dishonest not to bring it up. As always, I am not bringing my personal views or biases into the discussion but trying to reflect the mindset of the author and how the work we enjoy was created.
@Looshmal
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook Absolutely and you've done a fantastic job of keeping it separate, and as I've said before, being honest is what keeps me coming back again and again. I say, proudly, that I am a cradle Catholic and have enjoyed the great Professor's works since I first discovered them in the school library. A tough task to tackle, but I know that your integrity and respect for the Lore is such that I feel I can make a suggestion for a future endeavor. Of course, feel free to do, not do or say that you will do and don't (lol) you're the artist and this is your craft. A deep dive into the afterlife presented in his works. I know you've touched on them by varying degrees depending on the main theme of the video you're doing, but to hear your thoughts in a cohesive, encompassing video would be a joy! As an aside, it seemed humorous to me, or perhaps it was deeper for Tolkien that the Elves are given a Protestant afterlife, i.e hanging out with angels in Paradise where youth is preserved untouched, whereas Man is given the Catholic afterlife, to be joined to Eru in a mysterious way not understood. Of course, both get Purgatory in the Halls of Mandos before moving on to their fates, I guess some dogmas run too deep to leave out, even for the Elves. Cheers and Happy holidays to you and your family!
@Enerdhil
2 жыл бұрын
@@Looshmal That would be an awesome video. If there are enough fragments of lore out there for Steven to put together a video on this topic, I am sure he will do it, but I don't expect him to do a video based on his own "head canon," though I'm sure we would all love that.😁
@Enerdhil
2 жыл бұрын
@@Looshmal The Protestant take on the afterlife is not all that clear to me and I have been an evangelical Christian for 50 years. I have been taught that upon death, the spirit of a person leaves their body and breaks from the "time continuum" to be ushered up to heaven. I've also heard that the soul would be reembodied and carried up into heaven during the Second Coming of Christ, with no conscious feeling of time between death and resurrection. I actually don't care how I go from a corpse to being in heaven as long as I get there.😉
@tominiowa2513
2 жыл бұрын
@@Enerdhil The concept of Judgement Day is problematic to combine with the belief that formerly alive persons are currently in Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell, unless everyone is subject to time travel back to when they died after they are judged and placed in the appropriate otherworldly realm. "Protestant" and "Evangelical" are problematic too in this context, since they are very big tents that include many, sometimes contrary, interpretations of Scripture.
@Marcus-ki1en
2 жыл бұрын
I have always thought of Gandalf as wielding the flame of Heaven while Durin's Bane wielded the flame of Hell. Light will overcome darkness.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Exactly, that's the idea I put forward here :)
@Marcus-ki1en
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook And done very well. Thank you for your depth and breadth
@doctorlolchicken7478
2 жыл бұрын
I didn’t know any of these details, but I understood the meaning when I read the book. Tolkien’s invented languages and mythology are deliberately close to real languages and mythology. Terms like Anor, Udun and Secret Fire convey their meaning without literal translation. Anor sounds good and Udun sounds evil. The meaning is clearly I have the power of the light, which the power of the dark cannot overcome. Secret fire is more obscure, but given that we know where Gandalf comes from, and who he serves, it’s not hard to join the dots. Once again, I’m amazed how much some people read into Tolkien. He’s never deliberately obscure, he just has characters speak realistically, using terms they would use. It may sound odd to us, but not to Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas - and clearly not to the balrog.
@rafaelgustavo7786
2 жыл бұрын
Great video. Suggestion to another theme: the cosmic powers of Melkor (and the Ainur) in Eä (the universe).
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Interesting topic for sure, there's so much to cover with the Ainur from the early versions of the Legendarium - quite a lot of it also appears in the new Nature of Middle-earth book. I will explore this.
@anthonyprezioso8115
2 жыл бұрын
Great video , especially about Tolkien ‘s faith based message about The Holy Spirit and the secret fire being one an the same. Reading two books right now ; Finding God in Lord of the Rings and Finding God in the Hobbit by Jim Ware and Kurt Bruner ( you ‘ve prob read them already) . Thanks for making these videos ,God bless
@MikaelKKarlsson
2 жыл бұрын
It would be lovely to one day have an animated version of the books with as many of Tolkien's alternative versions of characters and events as practically possible. Although a peg legged hobbit Aragorn would likely be a bridge too far. 😁
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
It's funny reading Aragorn as he exists now and just imagining what could have been. The History of Middle-earth sections get very strange when he's Trotter :D .
@Crafty_Spirit
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook Upon your last video I actually wanted to suggest Trotter as a topic for your archive series, he is somewhat my favourite hobbit 😁
@Enerdhil
2 жыл бұрын
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a manga version of the Lord of the Rings only in Japanese. Kitto soudarou.
@andersgustafsson5533
2 жыл бұрын
I found it very difficult to accept Trotter ka hobbitl, and I am pleased he turned into Aragorn. Maybe I would have had a different opinion if I had read that version first instead of the completed Lord of the Rings. I also found it a bit hard to accept the version where our hero Aragorn fell for Eowyn but she rejected him because he was too old. :)
@astrotter
2 жыл бұрын
I've always been a little disappointed he didn't keep the name Trotter, but that's for very personal reasons.
@Silver-5-0-5
2 жыл бұрын
This is my favourite Lord of the rings channel the quality is outstanding.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you :D !
@danepatterson8107
2 жыл бұрын
That's the first I've seen anyone post that Tolkien consciously revised it toward Catholicism... I actually like that he did - I think it makes it more powerful. Cierdan makes Narya sound like a sex-worker in a ring! (That's a non-sequitur pair of thoughts!). Excellent episode. I also do not believe that Gandalf was referring to his ring. The Balrog may very well have been in isolation so long that it has no knowledge of the Rings of Power.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Haha way to ruin the Cirdan/Gandalf moment! And another comment mentioned the Ring of Power knowledge part - quite annoyed I didn't use it as one of the reasons I disagree with Gandalf referring to it. What would the Balrog know of it in the first place? And I'm sure others on here must have mentioned the Catholicism part but maybe not the biggest channels which focus more on just the story and its history over themes and symbolism.
@ChickenNugNugz2
2 жыл бұрын
I have to admit when that fact about Aragon having originally been a hobbit with wooden feet called Trotter I started laughing my ass off. That is amazing
@Enerdhil
2 жыл бұрын
I love the reference of "The Holy Spirit."✝️
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
I'd be interested if someone knowledgable made a video on that subject but I've only really read journals and essays speaking of the connection.
@Enerdhil
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook I think that the Holy Spirit in Tolkien's Legendarium can be found in the places where we feel like Eru is intervening with power of some sort to change events, going from defeat to victory. Actually, I have a theory about the Bridge scene. With Gandalf, I have always thought that the Bridge breaking and causing the Balrog to fall into the abyss was made possible by Eru's power working through Gandalf. [Maybe that could be an example of Tolkien's use of the Holy Spirit.] Unfortunately, evil also fights to win and that is why Gandalf needs Eru's second intervention on the mountain top. If Gandalf's staff striking the bridge had not broken the bridge, then he and the Balrog would have likely fought on the bridge and both would have fallen off anyway, the difference being that the orcs would have been able to coss the bridge and pursue the rest of the Fellowship with deadly consequences all but guaranteed. I think Gandalf later got "a double portion" of the Holy Spirit on the top of the mountain, where he lay after killing the Balrog.
@Syntheconductor
2 жыл бұрын
You may be interested in the Amon Sul podcast, a show put on by an Orthodox Christian priest, father Andrew, in which he looks at Tolkien’s works through an orthodox Christian point of view.
@Enerdhil
2 жыл бұрын
@@Syntheconductor Thanks. I will check it out.
@gondogeek
2 жыл бұрын
I agree on your take of The Flame of Anor. Besides, the three Elven Rings were hid in secrecy and it seems unlikely that Gandalf would have told the Balrog «Look at the bling on my finger.»
@forfun6273
Жыл бұрын
Right especially when that ring is made from the balrogs allies magic. Well morgaths magic. Saruman wasn’t able to make one because aule didn’t have all the knowledge to make the ring. Sauron learned part from Aule and part from Morgath. So when you look at everything in context Gandalf is contrasting the power of Eru vs Morgath. So to throw in I’m more powerful because I have a ring of evil magic just doesn’t make sense. Seems like he’s talking about wielding the white fire of eru and the velar or miar who created the trees and sun.
@paulogarciadesousa
2 жыл бұрын
Arien’s maiar peers became balrogs when they surrendered to Melkor. Arien was one of those fire maiar that refused him. I think that, by evoking Arien, Gandalf is reminding the balrog of that incorruptibility that is, metaphorically and literally, the antithesis of what he (the balrog) stands for.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Agreed Paulo, I've always seen Arien as what a Balrog could be if it hadn't fallen to darkness. Her fire supremely overwhelming the dark fire of the Balrog, later being used as a weapon by Gandalf. I should have mentioned this as I did talk about Arien in the Secret Fire video recently.
@breadngravy3860
2 жыл бұрын
This was incredible, man. First video of yours I've come across and listened the whole way through, music was a great accompaniment - subbed straight away! Glad to show some support to a fellow Scotsman! Think I'll go on a binge of your vids now haha.
@Pixis1
2 жыл бұрын
The subtlety is what I love about Tolkien's approach to religious elements in his work. His beliefs permeate the stories but not in a heavy-handed way. They're mythologized and incorporated into the world of Middle-earth. If one wants to enjoy the stories as mythology without the religious themes, that's valid. If one wants to look for deeper meaning and religious elements, that's also valid. As an agnostic, I appreciate this approach more than other religion-influenced stories that can come across as preachy. Tolkien talked about how he preferred applicability over allegory and I think that's the case here. Readers can interpret the themes of the stories in their own way and derive the meaning that applies to their lives and experiences.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
You've hit the nail on the head there and it's pretty much what I will be saying when I discuss Tolkien's views on allegory - I was going to do this through a video discussing Gandalf's 'resurrection' and the obvious Christ comparisons. People too often wheel out the quote about Tolkien disliking allegory but then ignore everything he said about applicability and symbolism. The religious elements are not shown in the form of 'good' worship or churches but through the characters themselves, and the meaning behind terms like Secret Fire. It all fits naturally into the story, so well that many miss it.
@tominiowa2513
2 жыл бұрын
The _Chronicles of Narnia_ in some sections would be improved by a Monty Pythonish "ALLEGORY ALERT!" sign flashing up.
@tominiowa2513
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook There is the problem that Gandalf dies and is resurrected in the Third Age, while the transition from the 5th Age to the 6th Age would naturally fall at around the time of the life of Christ (6th Age to 7th Age would be WW2 and/or Trinity Test).
@patmullarkey7659
2 жыл бұрын
Saruman studied ring lore, he must have known where the three rings were..the rings were all there at the White Council. Why isn't he tempted to try to take one, such as Gandalf's when he imprisoned him? I think it is strange he isn't mad he wasn't offered one. Plus, in Saruman's attempt to work with Sauron, wouldn't he get points for telling Sauron who has the eleven rings?
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
It's an interesting question Pat. In fact, months ago I was writing a video about why Saruman wouldn't take the ring from Gandalf while he was in Orthanc. I was about halfway through then another channel published a video on that exact topic (bad luck). So, I put it lower down on my list so it didn't seem like I was copying. I disagree that he knew where the rings were but he did know Gandalf carried one. I promise that this video will be on the channel at some point!
@DmytroBogdan
2 жыл бұрын
Gandalf was a servant of secret fire way before he got a fire ring, right?
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Yes, Gandalf has always really been a servant of the secret fire. He's never left that path. He was a servant of it before he would have even arrived in Middle-earth.
@DmytroBogdan
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook that what I thought, thanks for confirmation
@nickolas.vicente
2 жыл бұрын
I'm glad you disagree with everyone else 🤘 I always felt the conflict between the two was divine in it's nature. The Watcher targets Frodo as Ringbearer, but it seems like the balrog attacks Gandalf as if it recognizes the essence there.
@andersgustafsson5533
2 жыл бұрын
I think it attacks Gandalf because he stays to fight. But your statement raises an interesting question: To what degree would the Balrog have been able to recognise the ring as an object that Sauron had put much of his soul and power into?
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Good points there Nickolas. Another idea I have for a Balrog video answers that very question - did the Balrog sense Gandalf? Was it the ring that drew him or the power of Gandalf. You can probably guess my thoughts based on your own comment.
@nickolas.vicente
2 жыл бұрын
@@andersgustafsson5533 of course, the logistics of Gandalf placing himself between the Fellowship and the balrog have everything to do with it. But I do think, with the context prior to that part being the balrog using a counterspell against Gandalf, there are subtle suggestions that the balrog was more honed in on Gandalf.
@shanenolan8252
2 жыл бұрын
Cheers mate. Merry Christmas/happy holidays to you and yours
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks, Shane. Hope you have a good one!
@roygfs
2 жыл бұрын
Your sun interpretation is very reasonable, and would be consistent with Tolkien's extended writings and stated intentions.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Glad you agree !
@VishnuZutaten
2 жыл бұрын
Your channel is SUCH an inspiration...THANK YOU!
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you :D
@lsporter88
Жыл бұрын
Brilliant Presentation.
@anma8959
2 жыл бұрын
That was beautifully put, a joy to listen to. Thank you for that analysis!🌷
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you very much :)
@TheLyricalCleric
2 жыл бұрын
Excellent video! I’m so happy to be proven wrong on Gandalf referencing Narya. I’ve always been a fan of the three rings, but seeing the early draft of the Balrog confrontation it is clear that he’s not invoking the ring, but “holy” fire rather than the “unholy” fire of Utumno. I wonder whether or not this was the prompt for his ascension to Gandalf the White, seeing as he is basically professing his faith to an enemy of the Valar here.
@rickstorm4198
2 жыл бұрын
This is Gandalf's crucifixion and thus his resurrection. He kept his faith, despite being confronted with at minimum equal power if not being underpowered due to his frail body. He suffered much as they fought from the darkest deep to the highest peak. Where he threw down his enemy and smote his ruin on the mountain side.... His body is broken beyond what any other mortal could have withstood. Such was the suffering of Christ himself. Christ kept his faith, too. Both we're resurrected as a result for maintaining faith in a position that make anyone else give up to the pain to just let it he done. They couldn't though for their faith was to Strong and sure. Gandalf comes back as more powerful and confident Gandalf clothed in white and hair white. To symbolize the purity of his choice and to signify he is the chosen or son of Eru/God. I wish Tolkien would have written at least one battle where Gandalf just lets lose and we see his true power especially wielding Narya the ring of power and one could assume the sword of Turgon also enhanced his already considerable magic/holy energy. Nit to mention the staff Galadriel herself iirc fashioned for him to chanel said powers.
@kooldudematt1
2 жыл бұрын
@@rickstorm4198 Well in reference to your last point, if we ever get to see the Dagor Daggorath on-screen, Gandalf would certainly be at full capacity!
@whiteknightcat
2 жыл бұрын
This interpretation actually makes complete sense!
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Always good to hear :D
@rootkite
2 жыл бұрын
I continue to be amazed by the integrative power of your videos and these excellent, philosophically sound and open-minded analyses. Thank you so much! This raised several trains of thought for me. * It would make sense to me that Utumno as the first version of Melkor's stronghold wouldn't have been quite as "hellish" as his second attempt, having also grown in malice and corruption after his own brothers and sisters attacked him. His bitterness would have been amplified, and poured into Angband, manifesting as lava and torture and chains. * Gandalf/Olórin's declaration of allegiance (i.e. invocation) may also be a sort of "spell" that he uses to both psych out Durin's Bane and also to somehow access the full "soul-power" his fëa carries within it as a Maia (similarly to when he tells Saruman aloud at Orthanc, "Your staff is broken"; or when he uses some unmentioned so-called "Word of Power" on the door in the Chamber of Mazarbul; all utterances represented in English must be assumed to be Westron, I'd say, because other languages are always used untranslated, as in "Mellon" or when Legolas calls DB "Valarauko"). To be able to battle a Balrog non-stop in hand-to-hand combat for several days is a feat whose duress/intensity no mortal could hope to imagine. I bet Galdalf the Grey needed to use all of his "juice" just to vanquish Durin's Bane -- and his own corporeal death followed, meaning that it may be (speculatively) that without the invocation he would have failed in killing the Balrog. Imagine if Durin's Bane had survived and joined Sauron...! * Durin's Bane also "makes no reply" to this would-be spell, I think not because it was unable to use Westron/Sindarin/Quenya/Black Speech but perhaps because its power and faculties of consciousness/magic had dwindled in its long solitude and disconnection from both Morgoth and Sauron, and the One Ring itself, possibly even stunting its communicative abilities. That would be saying something about how powerful it was to begin with. * (How would Durin's Bane have reacted if Frodo or anyone else had at that moment put on the Ring? Similarly to Ring-Wraiths, I would guess, even though DB is probably about as old as Sauron and simiarly if not equally powerful; but the dark power that Sauron poured into the One Ring also came from Melkor/Morgoth, though obviously from Eru originally, since I believe Morgoth elevated or "upgraded" Sauron's magical abilities in the First Age; as he quite possibly also did to Gothmog to make him the most powerful Balrog ever). *The Secret Fire also holds echoes of real-world entheogenic cultural customs and subjective but often repeated ontological trance experiences, especially the Bright Light of unity referenced by ayahuasceros and in the Bardo Thödol (as the primary feature of the First Bardo). I am not suggesting that Tolkien was necessarily aware of these or any other psychedelic/shamanistic practices, or that he would have consciously wanted to reference such metaphysical practices; the closest we get to a psychonaut in his mythos is Tom Bombadil, though much of Elven culture does also involve relating to Arda/Ëa as a network of spiritual emanations and infused with the Secret Fire per se. (This is a subject it would be fascinating to explore, again regardless of JRRT's intentions; the parallels between shamanism/hyperspace/psychedelia and Tolkien's cosmology have long been of interest to me). All of this is also applicable to Christian/Abrahamic beliefs about death and the afterlife as well, certainly, and altered states in general. Thank you again, and very merriest of holiday seasons in these trying times 💖
@JCO2002
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks. Watching something that's true to Tolkien to get the bad taste out of my mouth from the 36 minutes I managed to watch of that terrible, boring Amazon travesty.
@MrJabbafett
2 жыл бұрын
100% agree. Never actually considered he was talking about Nayru myself. The way I always interpreted this, and I assume aligns with Tolkien's perspective as a Christian whose work was heavily influenced by Biblical lore : "I am a servant of The Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor!" (I am a servant of Eru Ilúvatar (God), wielder of the strongest flame/the Sun. {Sun - literal Sindarin translation of Anor}) "The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadows!" (Your power won't help you against me, Flame (Demon) of Hell! {Hell - literal Sindarin translation of Udûn.}) Gandalf is addressing the Balrog as a servant of Melkor, whose first stronghold was Utumno, also known as Udûn. The place where the Maiar that were corrupted by Melkor first took physical form in Arda as the Balrogs. I believe he referred to both powers as "flames" to provide a comparison for the Balrog, basically warning that his flame is stronger and that the Balrog would lose. He tried to say this in terms the Balrog might understand and heed. He ended up being right. RIP Durin's Bane.
@Gjergji311
2 жыл бұрын
You are spot-on about “flame of Anor” not referring to the elven ring. The juxtaposition is between Gandalf and the Balrog and whom they serve. The Flame of Anor is juxtaposed to the Flame of Udun.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Exactly. I think adding the Red Ring into it lessens what Gandalf is saying - weakens the power of the words and it's not what Tolkien intended...at least from my own reading of it.
@Gjergji311
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook Ok, this is off topic, but it might be a cool video idea. So, you’ve discussed that Sauron likely knew that Gandalf and the rest of the wizards were Maiar, but did the Witch King know this? I ask because based on the interaction between them at the gate of Minas Tirith, the Witch King seems to be under the impression that he can kill Gandalf, which, I don’t think he’d be able to do.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Good question and yes it is a topic for a video down the line. A video about the changes made to both characters after the confrontation on Weathertop - Witch-king and Gandalf both "enhanced". I will talk about this.
@WasabiSniffer
2 жыл бұрын
It’s fantastic dialog. It sounds epic, but if you know, you squee because you know. One Maia declaring himself and who he serves to another. It’s interesting to think he refers to Narya but I’ll probably lean toward the flame imperishable and Eru himself
@morecringe89
2 жыл бұрын
What was the best of the movies...well....speeches? DAMN RIGHT
@DeaconFrancis
2 жыл бұрын
At around 16:43 minutes of this video and discussion, you mention "we can't ignore Tolkien's own faith here!", especially when discussing "The Secret Fire." This is the mistake that every commentator makes when attempting to interpret the Lore. I've always believed that Tolkien's intent and belief, when speaking of the "Secret Fire", was the Holy Spirit of Eru Iluvatar as you state, and Kilby wrote... first and foremost from Tolkien's own mouth, that the "Secret Fire" was the Holy Spirit... but also because his entire life as a devout Catholic and Christian would have flowed into this magnificent true myth cosmos.
@DeaconFrancis
2 жыл бұрын
Gandalf's power as well as his words and demeanor are subsequent to Tolkien's own faith and belief that the power of God... Eru... is always available to his disciple/followers and that no fallen nature can eclipse the One True power of Iluvatar. But Gandalf was more than just a disciple of Eru, the One! And as an angelic power, he would have also had the power of an an exorcist... and that balrog was shaking in his boots... "Flame of Udun... Go back to the shadows... you cannot pass!"
@gabrieljohns8161
Жыл бұрын
Excellent breakdown of the lore, however there's one option you didn't consider for the flame of Anor, and that's his sword, Glamadring, which was forged in Gondolin. Either way, an amazing analysis of Gandalf's speech.
@onlyrevolutions2010
2 жыл бұрын
The problem I've always had with the idea that beings without free will are just "slaves to their master" is that even beings WITH free will are (according to religion) slaves to the person who gave it to them. They're forced to choose, without any physical evidence, the "correct' religion, and if they fail (which is far more likely), they face eternal torment and burning. It's absolutely sick and disgusting.
@pwmiles56
2 жыл бұрын
You've landed on what I believe is a very true understanding of the passage. The key connection is between the Good, on one hand, and light, such as sunlight, on the other. This is in fact the Analogy of the Sun in Plato's Republic: as the Sun lights up the world, so the ideal of the Good lights up the mind. They are not the same: it is an analogy, a metaphor if you will. If Tolkien had acknowledged the debt to Coleridge which he undoubtedly had, regarding his concept of Secondary Creation, the point would be clearer. Coleridge distinguished Primary and Secondary Imagination: the first being the divine gift of conscious apprehension of the world around us, the second the delegated power of the creative artist. It's part of his Famous Fancy-Imagination Distinction (as it is called). All of which was well-known to the likes of the Inklings. There's evidence the Famous Distinction was a talking point among them, and they would certainly know their Plato.
@whynottalklikeapirat
2 жыл бұрын
Gandalf was just talking bollocks but everyone was terribly impressed so it worked.
@jasonwelsh417
2 жыл бұрын
This channel is amazing. I love the relaxing dark ambient atmosphere the videos have.
@OdiVonDobi22
Жыл бұрын
Would have been kinda funny if the Balrog was like, "Uh I live here, just headed to the crapper, uh can I help you? What's with all the declarations and the secret fire mumbo jumbo bruh?"
@dlsamson
2 жыл бұрын
I like your analysis & placing it in the context of Tolkien's faith. I may be wrong but it seems to me that Tolkien's interpretation of Christianity may be akin to my own. The Christian parable (because, regardless of the truth of events, we as humans can only know it as parable unless we achieve Christ consciousness for ourselves) is not about the messenger Jesus but about the "secret fire" which is wielded by Jesus - i.e. Christ consciousness. In the Bible; John 14:12, Jesus states - "all these things....you shall also do...". This is a perfectly clear statement that Jesus does not consider himself as distinctly different from any of us. We all have the potential to attain Christ consciousness. Once we do, we will possess all of the qualities & abilities that were/are possessed by Jesus Christ. People tend to become infatuated with the messenger & neglect the message. There is a tradition in Hinduism - Bhakti Yoga - which declares that one can achieve "enlightenment" (or Christ Consciousness) by means of devotion to a saintly or divine figure, s.a. Krishna or as Jesus Christ (mind you, I'm not suggesting the Krishna & Jesus are equivalent. They each played very different parts in their respective sagas & comparing them would be apples to oranges). Therefore I do not want to suggest that those who are infatuated with Jesus are doomed, just that there is a deeper path - the path of pursuing the "secret fire." These words from Tolkien may suggest that he saw Christianity in a similar light - Jesus as an example, not as an end in himself. It would make sense then to think of Gandalf as an avatar in the sense that Hindu theologians understand it. Which is essentially as the physical embodiment of an angel on earth. Not God but a being fully aware of his connection to God & not reduced as with the ignorance of humanity as to their true nature.
@florbfnarb7099
2 жыл бұрын
The more I look at this scene, the more mythic layers it has, especially if we look at it in light of the text of the Silmarillion and the Bible. For one thing, the Istari were, if I remember right, in an incarnated state where they were tied to their physical forms; they were no longer free to take, alter, and shed physical form at will as Ainur are naturally able to do. This made them subject to the needs of the body. Contrary to some other interpretations I've seen, Gandalf was not simply re-embodied by the power of the Valar; he passed "out of time": "Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. "Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. [...] I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world. There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of overburdened snow." He seems to have truly died in some sense unlike what would normally be the case for a Maia whose body was destroyed against his will. It's more like a true death and resurrection by the will of God. His foe remained dead, however. This is reminiscent of Genesis 3:15, where God says to the serpent, “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel” - in Christian belief, this refers to the Messiah, who will be wounded by the serpent, a representative of Satan, but who will deal a death-blow to Satan. Gandalf is thus a Christ-figure in more than his death and resurrection; his combat with the Balrog recapitulates Christ's defeat of Satan - or we should say, it prefigures Christ's defeat of Satan, since Tolkien's history of the world is a very distant past history of the world, some tens of thousands of years before recorded history or even events uncovered by archaeology, much like Robert E. Howard's world of Conan. Further, it makes sense that while Gandalf is a servant of the Secret Fire, he wields specifically the Flame of Anor - the flame of the Sun. The Moon is associated with Elves, but the Sun is associated with Men, the first of whom awoke with the Sun's first rising. The Moon rose before the Sun, the Elves awoke first and Men are the followers. It's appropriate that in a scene where Gandalf, an incarnated angel, is fighting a demon in a prefiguring of Christ's defeat of Satan/Morgoth, that Gandalf therefore uses the flame of the Sun, a celestial object associated with Men, not Elves, because Christ is one of the persons of God incarnate as a Man, not an Elf. Thus it's appropriate that he prefigure the Son of Man while wielding the power of the Sun, associated with Men, rather than wielding the power of the Moon, associated with Elves.
@mm650
2 жыл бұрын
One of the most important aspects of this scene is rarely quoted: Immediately AFTER Gandalf tells the Balrog that the dark fire will not the the dark fire will not avail him, the Balrog AGREES... The Balrog becomes in response to that statement a creature of smoke and darkness. The Balrog would not have abandoned so potent a weapon of as fire if it didn't know for a certainty that in that arena, Gandalf simply out-classed him. The Balrog and Gandalf are both of a kind that dates to the creation of the world, and they both know that Illuvatar placed the fire of creation in the world, and that Morgoth, covetous of it went into the world to get that fire. They both know that Morgoth's works, lacking that fire are but twisted deformities or parodies of the Illuvatar's creations, and that those parodies could not ultimately stand against the true creations... else Morgoth would not have fallen and been cast out of the world. So, by the BALROG'S judgement, you must be right that the secret fire does not represent Narya. No craft of the elves, with the possible exceptions of the silmarils of old, was so powerful as to deter the Balrog. But I don't think you are right to suggest that the flame of Anor is the Sun, which is not specifically describes as a flame as such. Rather, I think that Gandalf succeeded in finding the flame of creation as Morgoth wanted to but failed. I think he did this because he was NOT seeking mastery or power but rather appreciating the strength and beauty of creation... the same qualities that recognized the humble but sturdy strength of the hobbits. Morgoth, and his servants like Sauron and the Balrog saw fire as a great destructive force... a volcanoe like Mt. Doom. But the fire of creation isn't... it's the fire of a hearth warming a home. It's a gentle thing, yet for all that indomitable. Regardless of which fires these are, I DEFINITELY agree that Gandald is speeking of his authority and sanction by the Valar who sent him, and by extension Iluvatar.
@erwingvargas2272
2 жыл бұрын
Yes! That's the Balrog design I've been looking for 🤙
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Which one? The intro design? I love that one :D
@erwingvargas2272
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook yes the intro one that looks more humanoid/angelic than demonic
@rydelldownward7808
2 жыл бұрын
While JRRT may have been influenced by his Catholic background, I don’t see the spiritual concepts in his work as specifically Christian. I see them as universal ideas at the heart of all beliefs.
@jerrydeem8946
2 жыл бұрын
This is the first time I've perused this LOTR channel. So it's bingeing with bong hits tonight, or coffee and the LazyBoy in the morning. I'll let you know how it turned out 🍄
@ivarwillis7829
Жыл бұрын
Ahh yes If only the dwarves was at Mitrandir side, IFRIDÎ… Yadnâh Durnìnal
@arondahlberg5086
2 жыл бұрын
Sir! Well said! This is how I've always understood it. I would never even have thought about Gandalf refering to him being the wielder of the ring during this confrontation unless someone else had mentioned it. And even then I thought it to be a very far fetched idea. I believe it becomes very clear the more you understand about Tolkien and his work. He does not refer to him being the wielder of the ring but rather declares himself as the wielder of light and a servent of Eru, who is God and has authority over Morgoth himself! Gandalfs speech really is about declaring that source of good, the creator himself, has authority over evil and the dark lord. Light vs Dark! Anor vs Udûn! Heaven vs hell! The source of good vs the source of evil! That Gandalf is refering to the ring must be an idea that arise from some kind of misunderstanding when it comes to the representation of power and authority in Tolkiens legendarium and also magic. They probably do not see the depths in his work rather only look upon it on the surface when they tried to understand his speech and therefor the ring was the best explaination for it... The Balrog is of the ancient world, probably was trapped within Utumno or escaped it through all the deep tunnels within during the destruction of the stronghold in the years of the trees. So it's been isolated from the rest of the world since before the first age and even before the sun was created. It knows nothing about the rings of power, probably not even the sun. Gandalf is declaring the power he represents vs the power the Balrog represents. And that the dark fire cannot prevail over the light of Eru. He is not refering to a magical trinket, that the Balrog knows nothing about. Which is even more clear wgen you understand Tolkiens view on magic and trinkets in the legendarium. People to often think Dungeons and Dragons rather than to see it from a christian view, which I would claim is very cruical in order to understand Tolkiens legendarium since his faith was such a big and important part of who he was. It would be out of character of both Tolkien and Gandalf to put their faith on a mere trinket, even a magical one, in the time of need! Tolkien was a christian and the speech Gandalf gives really relfects that, even if the Balrog would have won, it would not prevail over Eru, it would only win a very momentary battle. But in the end it's incapable of every prevailing against Eru, which the Balrog would have known. Its very obvious from a christian perspective and that is the very worldview Tolkien had all his life. It's not about the ring at all but all about declaring that God has authority and that he serves and represent the living God, even in the face of terrible evil!
@NoThankYouReally
2 жыл бұрын
I presumed Gandalf was here acting in a sense as a referee and, if needed, as an enforcer. Gandalf was limited in what he was permitted to do, allowing the races, or forcing them really, to take a hand in their own rescue. If Gandalf, or any of the "good" powerful entities restrained themselves from taking the field directly, entities like Durin's Bane could not be allowed to simply intervene in these affairs without opposition. Even if we are to look at creatures like the Nazgul, we see that the sins of man, not the overt, brute force of Sauron, is what plays here. Yes, they are imbued in some sense with Sauron's power, but it is power they sought out, power they wanted, power they would use to rule over their fellows. Practical considerations for this "treaty" between good and evil are many; evil perhaps knew it could not win vs the powers of good in an all-out brawl. Good knew perhaps that to bring the "nukes" on to the field would be to destroy the field. Perhaps "good" additionally wanted to allow for agency, come what will, for the people of Middle Earth. Whatever the reason, there was in place an agreement of some sort; the Balrog may not have known how important those traversing "its" realm were, or the role they played in the struggle, but Gandalf let it know, and when it sought to violate the agreement, took him off the board "in his ruin."
@YourOldUncleNoongah
2 жыл бұрын
By Eru I love your vids! Its a warm pre-spring afternoon here in Aus and Im relaxing with an iced coffee after mowing my rather large lawned yard, and watching this video.
@janisfrayle673
2 жыл бұрын
Tolkien invented Magic The Gathering - the Foundation needs to brief it's lawyers!
@martystrasinger3801
2 жыл бұрын
Besides the other comments, you are one of the very few who pronounce the non-English words of Tolkein correctly. It is a pleasure.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
A few get through when I am recording without realising I'm doing it. I say Ungoliant the wrong way sometimes out of a bad habit! I think I do alright though :D
@martystrasinger3801
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheRedBook Same here re: the spider entity: I assume “un-goliant” is wrong and “ung-oliant” is correct?
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
It's the 'u' that is the issue. It should be pronounced like "Oon-gol" like the tower of "Cirith Ungol" which means Cleft of the Spider. I sometimes end up saying Ungoliant like "Uhn-goliant" just out of habit. I try to break that though when I'm recording!
@Mentallect
2 жыл бұрын
Gandalf talked about Narya to the Balrog because the ring may provide resistance to the fire of the Balrog. Why would talking about "God" to a Balrog be a better tactic than saying Narya since Balrogs were basically demons in Tolkien's world?
@DavidRLentz
2 жыл бұрын
As an aspiring novelist who is devel- oping his own comprehensive story series (plural), I know firsthand the shifting and sliding of the myriad details of numerous novels encompassing several centuries.
@roberttilford7991
2 жыл бұрын
Have you considered that it's not necessarily either or but both and here? Meaning the Elven rings were made with Myar knowledge which comes from the Valar and Illuvatar. So the powers manifested by those rings would be 1 way the lord's of the west continued to aid middle earth
@ferdianeary822
2 жыл бұрын
I think he IS referring to the ring of power he held. The Balrog and Sauron himself often come with analogies of destructive, dangerous and unyielding flames. Gandalf on the other hand represent the warm fire of a hearth at home. The warm hung of a long lost friend or lover. Basically the embodiment of the Dutch word “Gezellig”. In other words, the Yin of flames to Sauron’s Yang.
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
Understandable but this confrontation has nothing to do with Sauron. It would be the Balrog and by extension, Morgoth.
@ItsButterBean1020
Жыл бұрын
Your point about Trotter makes me think; has anyone compiled the various versions of the Legendarium and how it contrasts?
@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615
2 жыл бұрын
Absolutely outstanding! I got chills during the intro. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK MELLON! Ecthelion!
@TheRedBook
2 жыл бұрын
It's a great part of the story and the fantastic audiobook! I will do my best, thanks!
@andrewpaige1194
2 жыл бұрын
And with all that fancy reclamation, and invocations of power, the balrog didn’t give 2 shts!
@valentinomiller6251
2 жыл бұрын
What is your take on the origin of Ungoliant? I like the idea that she is a manifestation of the Void. I think when each Ainur passed through the Void to eventually get to Arda, perhaps they unwittingly brought a bit of the Void with them, kind of like taking a shower and not thoroughly drying off; there's always a bead of water on the back or in the hair. Perhaps once the Ainur got to Arda, those "beads" of the Void found each other and compiled into the form of Ungoliant.What do you think, and when will you do a video on her origin?
@M0rmagil
2 жыл бұрын
Cirdan was exceedingly wise, and selfless, in giving Narya to Gandalf. The things Cirdan has seen….
@Dj.MODÆO
8 ай бұрын
I believe Gandalf was trying to impress and bluff the balrog into backing off. What gandalf said to the others made it pretty clear that Gandalf knew given the situation that he couldn’t beat the Balrog 1-1 without dying in the process himself so he made a desperate effort to avoid the battle completely by making it clear to the balrog that it would die also if they battled to try and make the balrog back off and let them leave.
@joseraulcapablanca8564
2 жыл бұрын
Good stuff here, i never doubted your theory myself. the book as always is better than the film, you shall not pass ian McKellen is more of a threat to use greater power. you cannot pass JRR Tolkien is a bald statement of fact, and in this lies much of its power. I do not remeber where it is in one of his letters maybe but there is some discussion of an earlier idea that the red flame should represent good and , blue/green or pale flame evil, this compares with the sickly light of Minas Ithil/ Morgul. i think in terms of his faith this may represent his own strugle to reconcile equating and hi the red and the black, traditional colours symbolising cardiansl and with it the power of mother church, and his instinctive feeling that mythically the red fitted the colour of the evil flame much better. Thanks and keep up the good work.
@o_LL_o
Жыл бұрын
It reads to me like even more than all that. Yes, for sure it sounds like Gandolf was trying to order the Balrog. At the beginning stating his authority, but towards the end, sounding like he was speaking angrily as towards a traitor. Nowhere in his address did he back down.
@marna_li
2 жыл бұрын
The philosophical aspects in Tolkien's work is so deep. You don't have to be religious to understand the themes. These are age-old stuff about human existence, good vs evil, and to cherish mortality and make the best of life.
@Halbared
Жыл бұрын
I'm surprised that people hunk Gandalf was referencing his ring. I never thought he was; I thought it was a reference to his innate power of being a Maia in Middle-Earth.
@jarrodmelson7802
Жыл бұрын
I see magic in Tolkien as akin to its curses. The words have power. It is like priest more than a mage; Gandalf is stating authority and fact. He does not say you shall not pass, but cannot. He is making a declaration that either creates or reflects reality.
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