I would just ask family members to come stand behind me and start clapping at the end of every live recording.
@staggerlee6794
8 ай бұрын
😂
@manojkonar3969
8 ай бұрын
Bravo😂
@brucermarino
8 ай бұрын
The Hafler circuit is a classic. Some of what you describe sounds like the Polk SDA technology that has been around for many years. Yes?
@Artemis_Prix
8 ай бұрын
Best explanation of what Carver's Sonic Holography circuit does. I've listened to my Carver amp for over 30 years with that button engaged. But, ironically, it's only been since I have been watching your videos where a focus on soundstage and audio quality has taken center stage. Thus I now prefer that it's turned off for critical listening duty. I find it distorts the soundstage too much (narrows instrument separation, mixes the sounds across both channels resulting in sonic distortion, etc). But, for everyday listening, it does sound nice (expands the soundstage and livens up the sound somewhat).
@RickMahoney2013
8 ай бұрын
I have a Carver receiver I bought new in 1994 and love it had the amplifier section redone a few years ago.
@JJ-no2ob
8 ай бұрын
I had ‘The Receiver’ by Bob Carver and loved it for many years. However, the sonic holography circuit was an interesting gimmick at best. I didn’t Use it much. I moved on to power amp separates - I’m in audio bliss
@Artemis_Prix
8 ай бұрын
@JJ-no2ob Agreed. The flaws become readily apparent when one listens critically. But, it did give me many years of smiles when listening for fun (rock, etc.). I plan to replace my Carver amp as well with monos. Although the power supply capacitors were replaced 2 years ago, it is showing its age (as it should being over 30+ years old) and is no longer my preferred option for Hi-Fi listening bliss.
@gotham61
8 ай бұрын
The BACCH dSP processor developed by Dr Edgar Choueiri at Princeton University, is a vastly more sophisticated crosstalk cancellation system than those ancient 40-50 year old analog Carver and Hafler setups.
@alex_stanley
8 ай бұрын
I listened to it at AXPONA last year. It was astonishing.
@jerrystecher6782
8 ай бұрын
I own the Bacch. It replaced a farely sopisticated 5.1.2 surround system (McIntosh and Martin Logan components) and it is better in most every way. It is also less expensive.
@hansfijlstra5932
8 ай бұрын
I own BACCH too, it’s absolutely stunning. Especially when used with electrostatic loudspeakers.
@BruceCross
8 ай бұрын
True, but the last I heard this processor was at least $20,000.
@jerrystecher6782
8 ай бұрын
@@BruceCross The Bacch4Mac, which is the software, a RME Baby Face Pro audio interface, and a pair of high sensitivity earbud mics is $4980. If you don't have a MAC computer, as I did not, a recommended MacMini, plus key board and monitor adds another $600-700. The software is put on the computer and the Baby Face is used to connect the Bacch with your audio devices and sound sources. The Mics are used to calibrate the software to your room. 1The above Bacch total was a couple thousand less than the cost of my Mac Surround processor, alone. It truly is a bargain in this strata of audio equipment, and the audio results are truly incredible. The only downside, and depending on one's situation a HUGE downside, only one person can experience it at a time as you must be in the sweet spot to hear its effect.
@BurakUnan
8 ай бұрын
The effect is more recognizable with headphones 👍 Paul, I remember you were mentioning Roger Waters 'Amused to Death' album, which I used to listen on headphones for the most part. Now I listen on my stereo system and the effect is there, but not as pronounced as it is with headphones.
@bobr9605
8 ай бұрын
This topic gives me quadraphonic flash backs.
@jeffbrooke4892
8 ай бұрын
Interesting hearing you bringing up the Haler circuit. I've been a fan of the Dynaco Quadaptor for years, altough I currently do not have a unit wired into my system. I would appreciate hearing more of your opinion on the Hafler circuit in a future video. Thanks
@sidesup8286
8 ай бұрын
They used to have live performers on stage during the Christmas season in a building downtown that is a tall building made of glass. I don't even remember how tall the ceiling was, but they had about a 60 foot tree in the middle, so it had to be at least that that.plus. With walls that were glass and very reflective, but the walls were so far away from the musicians, that it didn't seem to affect the sound adversely. Everything sounded good and I'm sure it had a unique spacious acoustic. Even though spatiality, is a very cool thing in our reproductions, getting the basic sound quality to higher & higher levels is even more important. According to what I've experienced and what I've read, any type of surround sound results in compromised focus of the front channels. To me working to get lower and lower distortion is the most fun thing. Music that audiophiles curse the sound quality of, like Layla, really sound pretty good, once you get your distortion down to ultra low levels, where your equipment isn't appreciably adding any distortion to the sound. One seemingly bad recording after another makes the " "This was recorded better that I thought, and better than people think" list. A lot of 1960s stuff like The Supremes, Steppenwolf, Jefferson Airplane, Moby Grape etc.wasn't recorded half as bad as what you think. Hearing almost no distortion on recordings that audiophiles cuss about the sound quality of, on audio forums is a very satisfying thing. You feel a bit like Christopher Columbus discovering the "new world".
@imqqmi
8 ай бұрын
I'd look into quad stereo setups, ie 4 identical full size speakers with dsp or a surround receiver and a measuring mike to align the time of arrival at the listening position to around 100 microseconds, not down to 0us as you get comb filtering and cancellations that result in an unbalanced spl and stereo image. Playing stereo audio over 4 speakers, front and back the same. By adjusting the surround/rear volume you can move the depth of soundstage to a comfortable position. Since applause and reverb are often out of phase left to right speaker it will sound as though separate from the main stage and coming from around you. Downsides are that the centering of vocals is only correct at listening position, and it's difficult to setup, cost of another pair of speakers, surround sound/dsp may not be up to audiophile standards.
@maxhirsch7035
8 ай бұрын
As I understand it, the practical reasons accounting for the paucity of surround systems in the audiophile world include: 1) the bulk of recordings not being mixed to surround sound, and a high proportion of those that have been ending up not being done well, but instead in an imbalanced and 'gimmicky' manner (less often being done poorly, though, w/ say, the genre of multichannel classical SACDS, from what I've heard); 2) the higher costs of achieving the same base sound reproduction when one has to spend on more amplifier channels, more speakers, and more cabling; or as a corollary, having to settle for sound that's in most ways inferior if on the same budget as two-channel or 2.1 (e.g., w/ a subwoofer) audio; and 3) the spiralling sonic challenges of making sub-optimal rooms work, especially smaller ones, with a greater multitude of sound reflections from multiple speakers. All of which is not to say that it shouldn't be done, but that one should have heard good examples of it first (and often enough to move beyond any initial 'Wow' factor to ascertain that it retains its charm for the listener in question past the novelty phase); has the budget, room, and expertise and/or patience to 'do it right'; and will be interested in a sufficient number of well-recorded multichannel recordings to make it worth it. And- plan for the planning fallacy!- that these kinds of goals tend to take longer, cost more, and include more hassle than one's initial plans account for, and perhaps by a wide margin!
@bluesky6361
8 ай бұрын
I used to own the Carver C4000 that was demoed by Myer-Emco at the old Washington DC HIFI Show. A few years later i was visiting my brother in Washington State and talked him into driving out to Woodenville were Carver was based. We walked in where i introduced us to the receptionist and asked if it were possible to meet Mr. Carver. She smiled and called to two guys in the office behind us: "Hey Bob! These guys want to meet you!" We turned around and were met by Bob and his chief engineer and were ushered into his office. We chatted for about an hour and discussed some issues i found with my C4000. Bob said if i wanted to send the amp to them they would update it to the latest spec, and they would pay shipping both ways! Of course i said yes. Afterwards my brother and i got a guided tour of the entire facility. We saw everything except the inside of Bob's private lab. It was quite the thrill. I wish i still had that C4000. I've considered buying one on ebay and restoring it. Caps and other parts are readily available in prepackaged kits on line. 😊
@PanAmStyle
8 ай бұрын
I have three(!) Dynaco SCA-80Q amps that use the Hafler system. They are in various states of updating, but when serviced properly they sound really good, especially for not much money. You can bridge the ground taps of the rear speakers to defeat the phase trickery and use them as a pair of remote speakers. I use these amps for my back porch and workshop systems.
@bradstone2603
8 ай бұрын
I remember reading about wiring a third speaker up in a special way, positive to the positive on the left channel of the amp, negative to the positive of the right channel. It had a name, it might have been linkwitz, I can't remember, but the information that was the same on the right as the left would only come out of the rear speaker. I think Dolby pro logic 2 basically did this... It was apparently good for live music, for the reasons you're looking for.
@littlegandhi1199
8 ай бұрын
Interesting!! For more work using Equalizer APO software on Windows you could do exactly what Paul described in not much time. Intuitive interface. Copy channel > invert phase and set volume
@paulb4661
8 ай бұрын
Wiring a third speaker between positive terminals of L & R channel will create a differential and that's precisely what Dolby Pro logic did. Only signals present in one and not the other will be output. Both negative terminals are joined together on the majority of amps and referenced to amplifier's ground, ie common point of both main filer caps.
@marcse7en
8 ай бұрын
Here in the UK 🇬🇧 Paul McGowan is my late mother's, late aunt's, daughter's husband! ... I believe he's a bus driver! ... Can't hear PS Audio's Paul McGowan's name, without thinking of Barbara and Paul McGowan in Morecambe, Lancashire, England!
@endrizo
8 ай бұрын
remember the old JVC biphonic system from late 70s it was incredible
@paulgaerisch
8 ай бұрын
It was called the Sonic hologram generator. I still have mine. It’s a stand alone unit called the C9. It works fantastic with my Magnepan’s in my small listening room. It really opens the soundstage. But, it doesn’t work with all recordings. Especially recordings that have a lot of ambient background sound.
@sidesup8286
8 ай бұрын
I had the Caver C4000 preamp whose sonic holgraphy emphasized front to back depth more than the C9 which sounded like it specialized in width more than depth. I simply couldn't listen to ordinary stereo any more. That SH button was always pressed to the on position. Only recently, decades later, am I experiencing that kind of depth; and it took a tube preamp and moving my speakers out into the room near 7 feet. One person comment that the Carver Sonic Holography made the instruments themselves sound too too narrow. narrow.When That's like complaining that when when you focus a movie projector from a big glob of blur to pinpoint perfect focus, that everything is too narrow. It's called F O C U S.
@stevefisher8323
8 ай бұрын
Here was a post from the Polk Audio forum recently about the Carver holography: "A trip to your local weed store might provide the holographic images one seeks!"
@thedogefather
8 ай бұрын
Q Sound is phenomenal. It always made me sad more wasn't released that way. listening to the sound effects on roger waters amused to death in q sound is incredible for a near full 360 experience with just 2 magnepans.
@dermasder5362
8 ай бұрын
Totally agree. Best Q-Sound Album ever recorded!
@georgeballow7028
8 ай бұрын
Had a Dynaco “Quadapter”. Worked pretty good. Think a volume control for the rear speaker and some kind of slide control.
@lexicon612
8 ай бұрын
Paul I have your back on this one. I'm more than sure he has already thought of surround sound & chose 2 channel, and even set it up properly (using your setup guide) His question (in my mind) was expressing interest in creating a more immersive experience. More holographic. The answer is a brand called Definitive. A Speaker manufacturer that shares his quest for a more immersive experience (without going full out surround). Definitive speakers generally provide a full D'Appolito configuration (front panel) A built in powered subwoofer whilst also providing a rear firing midrange for exactly that ambience you seem to be looking for. Set up properly Def Tech can hold their own with many more expensive speakers. They will also provide the extra ambience (such as crowd noise) to be reflected off a rear wall creating a more immersive experience. Yes I own a pair but...I must confess, I disabled the rear firing midranges. I prefer the stereo image (unenhanced) Yes Movies were better with the rear midranges firing.
@hoobsgroove
8 ай бұрын
You can do it through projection have your speakers close to each other no more than 2 ft apart if necessary, angle them between 15 to 35° out, You're using the walls to project the sound to the listener works best in narrow rooms.
@glenncurry3041
8 ай бұрын
a cheap version of the Hafler, I use a L/R difference signal from my PC's RCA stereo out to feed a pair of rear channel speakers. All they get is sound not strongly center mixed. So ambience primarily. Works gret for crowd sounds for surround. But since it is working all the time, it does smear some of the center mix. So I would not use it if you want a solid behind the speakers session for everything else. Maybe bandwidth limit just to get a higher frequency of applause?
@doylewayne3940
8 ай бұрын
Oh boy, brings back memories, i was saving my money for the Carver 'holographic imagizer' years ago BK, before kids, thanks Paul
@richblacklock
8 ай бұрын
Really enjoyed my Audio Pulse time delay system.
@maidsandmuses
8 ай бұрын
Sit in a swivel chair and swivel 180 degrees during the applause? 😉
@hiresaudiocosta873
8 ай бұрын
A 270 degree soundstage is possible with just two channels by eliminating crosstalk. BACCH for Mac does it. Or by eliminating crosstalk by listening in the near field. One can test what this is like by using a barrier between one’s face extending vertically towards the center of the speakers , thus eliminating left ear information getting to the right ear and vice versa. 😊
@slode1693
8 ай бұрын
When listening to most live recordings I picture myself on stage, in whatever instrument's position is panned center. Then the audience sounds like they are right where they are supposed to be. Same applied to rock mixes where the drum kit takes up the whole soundstage. Put yourself in the drummer's seat and it all sounds just right.
@jakenord5027
8 ай бұрын
Use headphones!
@larserikpettersen6658
8 ай бұрын
I’ve tested the Hafler circuit at some time, just add a 3rd speaker behind listening position, no extra amp needed, connecting speaker cable to + on left and right speaker terminal. Now rear speaker plays the difference between left and right front channels, in live recordings some of it will be audience and you’re in the middle of everything, it’s not perfect but interesting
@markmeridian3360
8 ай бұрын
Bob Carver did interesting demos with his Sonic Holography. I've heard a 180 degree soundstage but never 360. It didn't work well with all music and the "sweet spot" was quite narrow - not wide enough for several people to hear simultaneously. With QSound, I can get sounds from outside the speakers but nowhere near 180 degrees. Several albums were recorded with QSound, so anyone can try it - Madonna's Immaculate Collection, Sting - The Soul Cages, Pink Floyd - Pulse. Some people have said Roger Waters - Amused to Death is the best but I don't have that album.
@bikdav
8 ай бұрын
Paul, you need to build a digital time delay component like what was around in the late 70s to early 80s. I know that it’s not “real”, but it was fun to listen to.
@StarknightSK
7 ай бұрын
Probably a Synergistic Atmosphere + UEF dots can get you some of what you’re looking for
@larrysacks8927
3 ай бұрын
I have a Carver Sonic Hologram Generator which does this as well from the 1980’s works better with some speakers vs others very cool effect
@BobGeogeo
8 ай бұрын
I had a ~1980 (Toshiba?) boom box with a switch for Mono/Stereo/Wide. Possibly similar to what Paul's talking about? "Wide" was wider but sounded off somehow, so was rarely used.
@RasanSamarasinghe
8 ай бұрын
The processing of the audio signal can produce this. I've recently experimented implementing surround sound using LA2625, a chip that processes AViSS 3D surround sound algorithm.
@bayard1332
8 ай бұрын
The solution is simple, put in a second system and put the speakers where he wants the crowd and play a 10 hour loop of his favorite club's crowd noises.
@L.Scott_Music
8 ай бұрын
With the phase reversal process you speak of then that would make the listening position critically important, right?
@kodtech
8 ай бұрын
Dollby Prologic II - easy... done!
@rudolfglaser9664
8 ай бұрын
And sitting behind the loudspeakers to be inside the applause to be - it doesn't work either - does it?
@milkman100001
8 ай бұрын
surround sound with a dolby filter gets what you want
@biketech60
8 ай бұрын
Addressed in this video : kzitem.info/news/bejne/ta5_nKucboaKh4o Program for a Mac computer
@Justwantahover
8 ай бұрын
My semi dipole, semi omni, semi open cone speakers don't have the audience behind the listener (like surround sound can achieve) or behind the music. The audience tends to be between the listener and the music. Well, at least on some recordings.
@dpwrightjr109
8 ай бұрын
Hi Paul, how does your patented technique differ from Polk speakers? The Polks run a wire between them and introduce signal from one to the other.
@patrickbranin5243
8 ай бұрын
Well, I suppose you could put all your speakers in the middle of the room, enter Flatland, and wrap yourself around them like a sheet of paper; wouldn't that work?
@tubefreeeasy
8 ай бұрын
I can almost achieve this effect with my Nakamichi Soundwafe 7.2.4. I know I’d have a higher chance hearing this with a Soundwafe 9.2.4 because the extra two speakers can project the sound in front and behind me. Also, I use two cement forming tubes set on chairs to reflect the sound back to my rear-side of my ears.
@dexon555
8 ай бұрын
What about DSP?
@Patrick-vl2gx
8 ай бұрын
Jazz...out to lunch. Was that intended?
@Projacked1
8 ай бұрын
You can do a nice trick with only one rear speaker. Connect that speaker with the + of the L-channel and the - of the R-channel. If you sit in that triangle, the rear speaker is totally out phase, as the stereo field is combined and will add/ fill to the stereo field in front of you, It's really cool. It doesn't make it mono as you would suspect. The centre gets cancelled out or something, so it sounds super phasey, and you experience the sound really wide in combination with the front. You do need some room for that rear speaker tough. And , at the time I t could do it, because my integrated had 2 stereo outs.
@paulb4661
8 ай бұрын
Well, both L & R negative terminals are directly connected to the ground of mains filtering caps on the vast majority of amplifiers, exception being truly balanced ones (rare, as hen's teeth). So no, it doesn't change anything. What you want, isnto connect one, or two in series to both positives of L & R, thus resulting in cancellation and having only the difference appear in the additional one, or ones.
@Projacked1
8 ай бұрын
@@paulb4661That was the whole point, but you have to try this yourself. I vividly remember the experimentation (being broke AF, ofcourse). I could do some really cool stuff with imaging, and very limited means. But, that was before my 'new' relationship with qualiity sound, and love for more serious speaker placement.
@paulb4661
8 ай бұрын
@@Projacked1 Useless in my opinion, destroys spatial clues and soundstage layering completely. Multi channel SACDs can sound wonederful though, especially with live recordings. Your post suggests connecting POSITIVE terminal of the Lch to the NEGATIVE of the other, which makes no difference, apart from having another speaker effectively in parallel.
@Projacked1
8 ай бұрын
@@paulb4661ehm it's stereo recorded, ofcourse there are differences in phase between L/R. I wouldn't be saying that otherwise. Maybe it was a stupid idea, electronically speaking...I don't know, but it worked.
@Projacked1
8 ай бұрын
@@paulb4661When it comes to multi channel recording , placement in any room gets vague really fast, because a specific geometric setup is needed. Stereo still works best for my taste. If you don't have that part correct, in placement alone, you are missing out half of the experience.And that is besides room treatment.
@stn9947
8 ай бұрын
If Paul and Edgar got together and produced an AirLens that had BACCH included it would sell like hot cakes… just saying!
@chuckmaddison2924
8 ай бұрын
It's called binaural or dummy head recording. Plenty of demos on KZitem including a ride in a Ferrari Dino. But you need head phones.
@dangerzone007
8 ай бұрын
Ed just needs to save his pennies and buy himself a pair of MBL 101 X-treme or maybe a cut down version. That should do him for the rest of his life.
@RoderikvanReekum
8 ай бұрын
Just buy Bose 901!
@joeritota9073
8 ай бұрын
I remember the Carver holocaust. Never was a big fan of the topology.
@stimpy1226
8 ай бұрын
Isn’t it possible to let go of unrealistic dreams to hear live music in a live venue on occasion and the sound of the wonderfully reproduced music available on a huge number of the thousands and thousands of well produced recordings in the marketplace? The keyword here is “accept”.
@InsideOfMyOwnMind
8 ай бұрын
Consider your position as at back stage and convolve.
@andrewprettyquick2070
8 ай бұрын
Manchester university, and the quack of a duck. I feel responsible for the duck as I reignited the myth. They used 360 on that.
@carloporfiri6334
8 ай бұрын
Ahahahahahaahah
@Oystein87
8 ай бұрын
But the exact same thing happens in real life so cancelation can sound unnatural
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