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@davj1481
3 жыл бұрын
Are there any archaic recounts from the Templars weren't they supposed to be responsible for the crusades against the gnostics. Are there any diaries or any writings?
@davj1481
3 жыл бұрын
And what of the demiurge...
@sicituradastra4295
2 жыл бұрын
°•*:((🌞)):*• . /°\ . •*:((🌑)):*•°
@rueporter2253
2 жыл бұрын
@@davj1481 it still reigns supreme. Checkout godgevlamste channels work. Get last the moon map stuff , which is still very interesting and entertaining,and get to his take on His-Story and templars and other controllers I will not mention here for obvious reasons. I'm no hater, just trying to get to the facts. Much and more is deception, inversion and duplication. And if you know ol yaldas methods, you know it still sits and dictates all we are put through. I believe that this is co.ing to a head now. Titans maybe even being brought back. Reality is so much cooler than capitol S science will admit.
@rueporter2253
2 жыл бұрын
@@davj1481 A great show on HBO max is called raised by wolves, it tells the whole mother, demiurge, reset catastrophe cycle. It even says that the core never existed in earth, buy will be all that is destroyed . And by all, it means all life . Look at the intro with subtitles in to get an idea if you might be into it. I had to watch it many times and Everytime my jaw drops ans I get a little upset. We can stop this, but we have much work to change.our ways .
@NielMalan
3 жыл бұрын
As an old soldier this reminds me of the pitfalls of counter-insurgency warfare: If one does not carefully identify the enemy and accurately estimate their motives one might very well create the enemy you imagined.
@TheEsotericaChannel
3 жыл бұрын
This is a very important insight
@Carolleemakesthings
3 жыл бұрын
You said it!
@feloniousbutterfly
3 жыл бұрын
This happens time and time again.
@sicituradastra4295
2 жыл бұрын
The enemy lies within ...
@jydanssi
2 жыл бұрын
Judaism and Christianity create a perfect dualism.
@LetsTalkReligion
3 жыл бұрын
Yours is definitely the cooler of the two videos! A pleasure to work together as always!
@TheEsotericaChannel
3 жыл бұрын
No way, brother ! Always so wonderful to work together!
@fanenthusiast3802
3 жыл бұрын
Do one on the Sarmoung. Maybe a second video on the fourth way. And a third on where those beliefs can be found today? Just throwing the idea out there. God Bless
@olegkirovskii2720
3 жыл бұрын
both of you make marvellous videos
@TheSanbao
3 жыл бұрын
You are both cool!!! Such a nice combination.... The magical, dualist : it is and it isn't 🌟 Thank you!!!!
@daddyleon
3 жыл бұрын
@@TheEsotericaChannel I love this mutual bromance
@DwRockett
3 жыл бұрын
“Guys, I’m really worried there is a dualist heresy in the south” “Hmm, this is a grave concern. Let’s torture this man to see if there is a dualist heresy in the south” “By St. Martin, after hours of torture he confessed to it! We need to stamp this out before it’s too late!” Fascinating video, great job
@justinhart2831
Ай бұрын
@@DwRockett "The battle lines are clearly drawn between us and the dualists. You're either with us, or you're with those evil people who divide the world into good and evil!"
@delphinidin
3 жыл бұрын
So what I'm hearing is that the "Cathar heresy" is a very violent medieval version of the 1980s "Satanic panic".
@TheEsotericaChannel
3 жыл бұрын
Yes exactly
@LlamaOccident
3 жыл бұрын
Imagine Alex Jones as an inquisitor
@Asehpe
3 жыл бұрын
@@LlamaOccident It's so easy to imagine him as an inquisitor it's almost uncanny. Vade retro Satana!
@gusduenasArt
3 жыл бұрын
Actually no, the cathars crusade was a cover story for a crusade to shift the power structures in the Langue d’ Oc or Occitan in favor of the Catholic Church . The satanic panic was made to sell books and a lot of bad movies…I don’t know if the Albigensian crusade was motivated by money too
@gusduenasArt
3 жыл бұрын
@@LlamaOccident not , Torquemada was really educated.
@thecriticalscholar8680
3 жыл бұрын
This video is so much more than a great companion of the Let's talk religion counterpart video. Keep up the good work Dr Sledge and I hope you do a video on Orthodox Christianity soon.
@fanenthusiast3802
3 жыл бұрын
I love this stuff. I'd like to see one on the Sarmoung.
@totoji
3 жыл бұрын
I was about to comment how they uploaded almost at the same time.
@darkartsbyadrienne
3 жыл бұрын
So happy (mostly relieved) to know that Academia can shed new light on old topics. Not to knock anyone. The more of a critical eye, the greater the knowledge! Understanding context & examining the historical evidence. Understanding our modern need to project our values on to the past. So important! Excellent video!
@Mr.RobotHead
3 жыл бұрын
Great video! I've always been fascinated with the Albigensian Crusade, and always knew it was political (Languedoc and Provence had far stronger cultural and political ties to Catalonia than France), and felt that any heresy was just the excuse. I think this is the first time I've encountered the argument that the Cathars never even existed, and now I'm going to dive into the rabbit hole...
@TheEsotericaChannel
3 жыл бұрын
If nothing else, it's a compelling enough argument for anyone that's only heard the traditionalist argument to take another look at the material.
@maelstrom2594
3 жыл бұрын
Also important to note that the Catholic church was the largest political power of the day and almost everything they did was politically motivated. In todays terms the church was the de facto super power of Europe. I'm sure self preservation was an important motivating factor and innocents were nothing more than collateral damage.
@re9498
2 жыл бұрын
If it was political, why did the King of France refuse to intervene till 1223? Why did Simon de Montfort offer homage to Peter II, King of Aragon, rather than the King of France in 1211? Why was the County of Toulouse not annexed by the French Crown till 1271, long after everyone who participated had died? Why did the French King Phillip Augustus tell Innocent III he already recognized the Count of Toulouse as a vassal? We are too quick to assume that the Albigensian Crusade was just a pretext for French expansion when the King of France, Phillip Augustus, had plainly refused to support the venture until 1223. Phillip did not support the Crusade and even protested to the Pope in favor of Raymond VI that his rights were not being respected and he was, in theory, already a vassal of France. Moreover, Simon de Montfort's mission as leader of the Albigensian Crusade never requires him to pay homage to the King of France nor did the Pope or Papal Legates order him to do so. By all rights, it seemed as if Simon was going to be another independent lord in Occitania and likely a vassal of Peter II which was the case from 1211-1213 until Peter turned on him.
@joancassolacoenders7332
Жыл бұрын
@@re9498 A half true is worse that de whole lie
@theresiamallee4569
Жыл бұрын
@@re9498 France was very much devided in that time by reforms of chuch and worship and whole aristocratic families were split by this. But I have to say that it was always economicly, politicly and for fear of a bad after life, better not to mingle in the matters of the church, plus evryone always wanted a piece of it. And the church the most. So time after time the langedoc was left to their lot. The history of conspiring and scheming goes a long way back in to time.....
@justasoul1501
3 жыл бұрын
This channel came into being, simply put, at the perfect time in my life. I appreciate how knots of contradiction are unwound, while still upholding the importance of our spiritual origins.
@EdwardIglesias
3 жыл бұрын
As someone who grew up in the 70s and read Murray's Witch Cult book as part of the curriculum in my very fancy mail order witchcraft course, I can really relate to the folks who now have to question their narratives. Nonetheless, I'll take the current state of Paganism, Instagram and all, over the hard fought crumbs of inaccurate pseudo texts we had to work with any day.
@beth7935
2 жыл бұрын
Yep, as a 90s teenager I was like, "wow, there were still witches/pagans!" I'm very much "give me PROPER evidence, please!" these days, & I see modern Paganism as a reconstructed- but no less valid!- religion that may not be much like historical paganism at all, considering we know so little about that. I wasn't bothered when that theory was debunked, but at other times I've had to bash my head & go "BE OBJECTIVE & ACCEPT THIS GOOD EVIDENCE!!!" 😂
@merc9nine
Жыл бұрын
I went to the mail today and there were girls clearly under driving age walking around with essentially bikini tops. I'm not even religious but I'd take Sharia over the Instagram culture. Turning every woman into a prostitute is not progress.
@chaplam-lee949
Жыл бұрын
"looking for what was actually there and not what I want to be there" is a very scholarly statement
@misskate3815
3 жыл бұрын
Tbh, after listening to both sides, I find myself coming down in the middle. The ppl we call Cathars don’t sound like they would have had an organized religious order as portrayed by traditionalists, but I find it hard to believe that the crusade would have taken off over a few peasants being misinterpreted by ignorant xenophobes. On the other hand, I find myself more and more persuaded by the “witch hunt” analogy, so I want to learn more about the skeptic side. Thanks for the great video!
@porcudracului
6 ай бұрын
Why is it so hard to believe? Aren't there enough examples today and/or throughout history where the exact same thing happened?
@misskate3815
6 ай бұрын
@@porcudracului because I’m not buying into a myth that seems to have been created years after the facts.
@uncommonsensewithpastormar2913
Жыл бұрын
Excellent, well researched video. Whether the Cathars really existed or not is secondary to the greater truth that history is as much created as discovered.
@gabriellawrence6598
3 жыл бұрын
Excellent as always, very comprehensive. About the pescetarian thing, if I'm not mistaken, many a species of fish reproduce by external fecundation (that is, formally, a sexuated reproduction but with no intercorse) in a way that there is no body contact or "act". I don't know if they had this scientific knowledge in Antiquity, but it's an interesting fact to know.
@TheEsotericaChannel
3 жыл бұрын
Neat!
@Garyescargo
7 ай бұрын
It seems to me they did know it even if maybe it was forgotten how they discovered this fact, remembered simply as the truth. Maybe, Idk.
@willemkossen
3 жыл бұрын
This might be one of your best videos so far. Very insightful, respectful. Very interesting! Looking forward to the follow up videos!
@samrevlej9331
Жыл бұрын
As a French humanities student, I learned about this historiographical debate when we were doing a seminar on "The 'Beautiful 13th Century': France, Italy, Holy Roman Empire". We spent a couple of weeks of the topic, and I was completely floored: I'd never been particularly interested by the Cathars, but I'd learned about them as heretics/religious dissidents who'd been exterminated by a crusade, and I vaguely thought they had special castles in the mountains. My teacher, who wasn't a medievalist, had learned about this while preparing the seminar and was visibly excited to tell us about this debate, and how he thought it had been settled (at least in France) when the respected review "Les Cahiers de Fanjeaux" published the 2020 Fanjeaux conference proceedings called "Le 'catharisme' en question". Since this publication is considered an authority on the matter of Occitan religious history in the medieval period, the teacher considered the matter pretty much settled as far as scholarship is concerned and that the holdouts were just bitter old scholars refusing to admit they'd been wrong on the subject they'd written on for decades. As you've noted, it's weird how little this academic debate has translated into public perception of history. In Occitania I can understand the political and economic reasons, as they've really been capitalizing on the "Cathar brand" for tourism with "Cathar castles" and "Cathar country". Also, Occitan regionalists and nationalists have been using Cathars to make their case on their oppression by northern France since the 1970s, which btw is demonstrably true with or without the Cathars as a full-blown counter-Church.
@TheEsotericaChannel
Жыл бұрын
It's really an important topic least of all about the importance of historiography
@samrevlej9331
Жыл бұрын
@@TheEsotericaChannel Yes. As an aspiring history student, it really helped me understand the field I wanted to specialize myself in (I was in a more generalist humanities curriculum, including literature, geography and philosophy). The difficulty of teaching about a still debated topic to a non-specialist audience in a limited timeframe too. Luckily, I had two great history teachers who managed to make me realize how much history interested me. The Cathar problem also kickstarted my interest in religious studies, heresies and the Gregorian Reform + the medieval Inquisition. It's not what I specialize in today - I'm focused on medieval Mediterranean history, specifically Latin-Byzantine-Muslim interactions - but it got me interested in how religiously diverse the medieval world in and beyond Europe was.
@damiandossantos5077
3 жыл бұрын
first time hearing this theory and it just blew my mind.. It actually makes more sense that inquisitors just labelled any "witch" or heretic" as such.. i think that in most places local mythology and folklore of the past was incorporated in the new religion depending separate communities and as the catholic faith progressed and became more unified in theology and through fear of inquisitions, ancient traditions got rooted out. Like you say unfortunately all we know about these so called cathars is what the victors wrote about them.. Any ways great video as always sir
@mistyhaney5565
6 ай бұрын
I haven't done the reading yet, but I want to thank you for providing such resources.
@Maikeru176
3 жыл бұрын
Fantastic video! I actually wrote my seminar piece this past year on the Crusade and the validity of it even being this war on heresy that skeptics have put forward. And while I can't exactly say whether Cathars did or did not exist, I definitely believe the war was fought on the ground of controlling Languedoc and the larger, autonomous Occitan sphere. Even the way primary sources of the time describe the sort of hatred many fighting showed towards each other hints quite a bit at some of the dislike French lords and Italian clergy had for a group of people "harboring heretics," let alone the Song's more patriotic second author painting the Occitan people as defenders of the righteous. All I can really say in the end is the case that the history of the French sort of just beating up their southern subjects is a bit telling considering the language is spoken by less than one million and at the time of the war was one of the most influential Romance languages.
@ericsmith1801
3 жыл бұрын
The Troubadour tradition in Southern France was also contemporaneous with the existence of the Cathars. Love was the highest goal of the troubadours--and most important. In fact for 100 years approximately until about 1240 the troubadours plied their interest. This happened in several countries in Europe, also in Iran and Japan where love was held in highest esteem for about 100 years. The hippie culture in the Middle Ages :)
@AlexGoldhill
2 жыл бұрын
I've also heard that this focus on love, particularly romantic courtly love, was influenced by the Islamic world via Spain where Muslim theologies, particularly in various Sufi traditions, place far greater emphasis on the importance and significance of love in contrast to Christianity which saw love, outside of very specific circumstances, as a potential vector for irrational passions and sinful lust. This would go on to heavily influence popular medieval literature, particularly the Arthurian Romance, with previously cautionary tales about the corrupting dangers of last being reinterpreted in a more noble and positive light, most notably the affair between Lancelot and Guinnevre.
@ericsmith1801
2 жыл бұрын
@@AlexGoldhill The case of the Moslem occupation Spain was
@MonsterPainter
2 ай бұрын
Such a thoughtful examination of a subject that draws out the crazies. Thank you.
@karenmaksart
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you Professor! It took me more than a month to finally understand how to donate and comment here... I love your work and the time you spend to bring this information to us. And I definitely support you!
@colinslant
3 жыл бұрын
"Do Cathars exist? Who cares? Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out..." - the Catholic Church. Real movement or not, there were real people who were really tortured and murdered. May they rest in peace.
@LucodeHome
2 жыл бұрын
Really great video. I did made a study about what happened in the region some time ago. Especially from the social and spiritual perspective it was the actual hot-spot what did emerge into a global shift of the consciousness into the material and rational world. Concentration and consolidation of power was a major driving force to take down any potential thread. Beside of wise women (denounced as witches) the Temples where massacred too.
@luisvargas1526
3 жыл бұрын
As a none duelist, I enjoy reading about all religions, their theologies, and philosophies. I feel it adds to my spiritual understanding of how humanity struggled with new ideas, and cultural diversity in thought and practice. With that said, I appreciate your exposition, your questions, and ideas based on an educated, philosophical, and psychological approach to its content. Thank you. Greatly appreciated
@marcinreutt2044
3 жыл бұрын
Wow, great work and approach (as always on this channel). Thank you, can't wait for any follow-up on this🙏👌
@johncollins211
3 жыл бұрын
Dr Justin always coming with that heat! The Nolan Ryan of esoteric teachers.
@kenclarkeis
3 жыл бұрын
Both videos are wonderful. Thank you for bringing such great scholarship. Learnt many things from this collaboration.
@Erel0
3 жыл бұрын
My family comes from a village a few miles form Montségur. I've been spoon fed "Catharism" since childhood. It's obvious to me that the inquisition basically invented conspiracy theory, and I tend to take everything cathar with a grain of salt. Not that I doubt that there was a real religious phenomena at the other side of the filter. Anyway I mostly enjoy reading the texts (Liber de duobus prinipiis, Interrogatio Johannis).
@TheEsotericaChannel
3 жыл бұрын
I'll be getting to those texts as well. Honestly, that's one of the places I find the skeptical argument weak: explaining these texts. Of course, neither is produced in Languedoc and I haven't seen any evidence that dissidents even knew about them them. But, for a reaction formation, de duobus prinipiis is very sophisticated.
@Erel0
3 жыл бұрын
@@TheEsotericaChannel Obviously someone wrote or imported, or translated... and read those texts. So there were Cathars. The fact that most of what we know of them come from the inquisition makes it difficult to really know who they where. Not to mentions the modern folklore and busyness around them.... I like the way Jung in Aion includes them in a broader "holy ghost movement" that happened in all Europe at the time. It may just have been the local manifestation of a broader movement, and this movement itself was what was perceived a the Great Heresy.
@TheEsotericaChannel
3 жыл бұрын
@@Erel0 I'm not quite convinced - clearly there were dissidents and some of those dissidents later showed evidence of dualism. I tend to think this was an evolutionary process rather than the traditionalist position of a 'counter-church.' Looking forward to continuing grappling with this material, for sure!
@Erel0
3 жыл бұрын
@@TheEsotericaChannel I agree. My point is just that the inquisition filter makes things murky. In fact I was not really making a point, just mentioning one or two thoughts in passing. The comment section is not a good place to have an in depth discussion. And my English is probably not good enough for that, I often lack the skill to express nuances. I'll be looking forward to your work on those text. And speaking of Jung and his "holy spirit movement", for one on Joachim of Fiore too!
@theStormWeaver
3 жыл бұрын
@@TheEsotericaChannel The "counter-church" part is the thing I find the least likely about the traditional narrative, but the idea of a (locally) "widespread" movement isn't at all hard to swallow.
@ninetales6485
3 жыл бұрын
Catharism is one of my favorite subjects! Were they or were they not a real group is a question I have wondered about for years. I would like them to have existed but by no means does that have any authority as to whether or not they existed. I find this question raised as interesting as I do their theology. Thank you you've made my day and I really needed this!
@jdewit8148
3 жыл бұрын
Catholicism was looking for a scapegoat to put fear of in the community, thereby tightening it's control. Much like covid Vax passports do today.
@mrpoop123
2 жыл бұрын
They definitely existed....don't even know why this is being discussed
@SwordTune
Жыл бұрын
@@mrpoop123 I don't doubt that there may have been a few of them, the question is the scale and whether or not their beliefs were really what the chroniclers wrote down.
@mrpoop123
Жыл бұрын
@@SwordTune i actually have the notion they may be connected to illuminati. They were connected to the templars who were the skull and bones
@MrLex86
3 жыл бұрын
My wife is currently working on a doctoral thesis in Heresy studies. :D
@_GOD_HAND_
3 жыл бұрын
Remind her that the milk should be frothed in a cappuccino, but not in a latte. That will be important for her future career.
@haleya18
3 жыл бұрын
I need a do-over, so I can pursue this field of scholarship. :D
@MrLex86
3 жыл бұрын
@@haleya18 It's never too late. There's people in her study group in their 50-60's.
@DarkMoonDroid
3 жыл бұрын
As much as I love the idea of The Cathars, I've seen elements of what they're describing in practice today in the way the two main political parties in the U.S. are manufactured as well as other social "tribes". The stereotypes are mostly just that. It benefits the ruling class for people to believe that these organized, dogmatic clubs exist so that we will turn on each other and be more easily conquered. However, we should ask ourselves if we can use the same logic to erase organized groups that we do know exist. Also, we should ask if this method has been or will be used to erase things like The Holocaust. All I'm saying is lets keep our eyes open about whether or not such _deletions_ will benefit a questionable group in a similar way as whether the _existence_ of a group or event will benefit a questionable group.
@bagsogee
3 жыл бұрын
Congratulations to you and LTR's on your excellent videos. I would also reccomend Melvyn Bragg's BBC's Radio 4"s In Our Time episode on this topic which you can listen to on KZitem. If l remember correctly they go into the popular unrest/ unease in the region at the church's ruling that the sacrament of communion was so pure that the priest giving the sacrament didn't have to be that pure themselves. I find the sceptic's arguement compelling because any "evidence" that has been gathered through torture is worthless as many contemporary miscarriages of justice have proven.
@maelstrom2594
3 жыл бұрын
Very interesting, I've always believed that within Christianity there must always have been those individuals who thought outside the box and I certainly see how the authorities of the time might lump everyone into a single group and scoop up many innocents in the net. An intriguing topic for thought and discussion. I'll certainly be on the lookout for more of the same. You, Sir, have earned a new subscriber.
@rayhill5767
2 жыл бұрын
From the very beginning of Christianity there were schisms. All the heretical things you can think of were conceptualized and debated during the Roman era. The myth is that at one point there was one true church. That was never Never the case.
@steelfloor10
3 жыл бұрын
It was a landgrab between the pope in Italy and the king of France at the time
@complimentary_voucher
Жыл бұрын
Yeah I suspect there is a lot of truth in this, especially when you consider the cultural enmities that definitely existed and conform to a suspicious degree with 'Catharism'.
@therealzilch
3 жыл бұрын
Fascinating and a great complement to Filip's equally fascinating, and fascinatingly different video. Luckily, being an atheist, I needn't subscribe to any sort of dualism and express a preference. Thanks to both of you. Lunch is on me if you're ever in town. Cheers from cloudy Vienna, Scott
@pilgrimm23
11 ай бұрын
Magister domine: gratia tibi ago. I am 70. (I'm the guy who asked you about Thorndike). Back over 50 years ago I studied medieval history in college. Fascinating. I came to similar conclusions then but dared not speak my mind in lectures. the Carthars, Albegencians and such interested me and I haunted the stacks of my local university library; looking for texts. Unfortunately it was a bit brief in documents I was looking for... (Univ of New Mexico). sigh. Your discussion is refreshing. Would that I had taken your class.. I tip my hat sir.
@BeverlyAcupuncture
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the references. Love your sense of humor.
@sstringfellowc
3 жыл бұрын
Excellent. Thanks for keeping apprised of what's going on. And thanks for the extra readings/ viewing sources. Looking forward to checking them all it.
@MegaJackpinesavage
Жыл бұрын
"Just because it's said doesn't make it so." I look forward to further viewing of your very interesting video channel, Dr Sledge --- thank you.
@archiebald3574
3 жыл бұрын
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon
@doctor77talktalk
2 жыл бұрын
Have been really taken with the channel and your well presented content. My first book was Ladurie - Montaillou and then five more since then - none from the sceptic side - need to read a little more before i can draw conclusions. So many shattered illusions in my 60 years of Templar hunting - one more will not hurt.
@yusufrashada2863
9 күн бұрын
Thanks!
@briannacery9939
9 ай бұрын
I admire the strength to suspend belief and search for truth!
@mellie4174
Жыл бұрын
Amazing episode!
@sterlingw3611
3 жыл бұрын
damn mad respect for the cathars and the gnostics!
@overlord5068
3 жыл бұрын
You said you're a satanist just like them
@almosrogacs8956
3 жыл бұрын
I love Gnosticism and I love this video!
@ludonymous526
2 ай бұрын
Good luck, then.
@halszkat8764
4 ай бұрын
Great video, encouraging of critical thought. Although, I'm left undecided. I agree that we must consider the potential danger in which a history is based on nothing more than the inquisitions records, after all so often we are told that history is written by the victors. However, precisely that brings me to thinking about the minority groups, movements, philosophical and spiritual ideas that were perhaps too unique, too small to ever gather a mass momentum, even on a local scale. Therefore, I think it's also important to acknowledge that it's just as possible that an idea does not make it into any historical records, because it was an idea that was truly underground.
@MrLumagu
3 жыл бұрын
Love your work! Keep it up! :)
@wrenangles5455
3 жыл бұрын
Great stuff as always. I went deep down a Cathar rabbit hole several years ago. I cant remember the name of this book, but the best book I remember reading proposed that the Cathars were either invented or being funded by the Count of Toulouse because of the frustration with the Catholic Church constantly asking for more money. This book also claimed a number of the named Cathars in the records were also members of noble families.
@mrpoop123
2 жыл бұрын
I'm trying to find a certain book myself telling that the cathars are tied to the illuminati. I can't find it i thought it was by Mark pino or pinar or something. Also im truly starting to see that everything both sides are controlled by the same entity and I know 100% what this entity is.
@NK6only
Жыл бұрын
I would love to know the name of that book if you happen to recall the name
@davj1481
3 жыл бұрын
This is a superb evaluation
@daddyleon
3 жыл бұрын
I feel silly that it didn't occur to me that the bulk of the information was from the hands of those in the inquisition. In Chandler's voice: "Could there *be* a more biased viewpoint?" I would've loved there to be Cathars, a religious and medieval parallel to Asterix & Obelix with a very interesting, unique, coherent (and, to me, more reasonable) theological basis.
@Iknowknow112
3 жыл бұрын
This sounds similar to the points that Michael Williams makes in re to the term “Gnostic” when talking about early Christians. If that’s the case my response is- Fair enough! Also this video brings up a lot of references to mind ; “ The Price of Monotheism” by Assmann and “The Wretched of the Earth” with the idea of oppressed people taking their self-definition from their oppressors. Thanks for the video.
@TheEsotericaChannel
3 жыл бұрын
Yep I mentioned Williams in the episode!
@Iknowknow112
3 жыл бұрын
@@TheEsotericaChannel I saw that but I wrote before I finished hearing the entire video. "Great minds think alike"😎
@davidcheater4239
3 жыл бұрын
This reminds me about the accusations against the Knights Templar, particularly the existence of Baphomet.
@ceilhuicamina1698
3 жыл бұрын
Excellent introduction to the topic! Thank you very much!
@MarquisSmith
Жыл бұрын
Anyone would think history had an agenda. Great video as ever, Dr Sledge.
@devindevon
2 жыл бұрын
"If Cathars did not exist it would be necessary to invent them." - Me.
@triciatallman4514
2 жыл бұрын
Great presentation! Thanks for sharing this.
@longcastle4863
Жыл бұрын
Fascinating theory.
@2602ops
Жыл бұрын
Happy you talk about the Cathars.
@laurie8090
3 жыл бұрын
This is fascinating to me because I majored in Medieval history and had a great interest in the heresies. It's been awhile since I read anything and had no idea heresy scepticism was a thing. I am very interested to see what the sceptics have to say. I think it's an important debate because history is not an exact science and when new evidence is discovered you have to be open to changes in perspective.
@johnshopkins8025
Жыл бұрын
I've taken classes with Dr. Pegg, one of the historians sited against the traditional narrative, and he is a fascinating person himself. His lectures are amazing, if a little bit rambling.
@guillermoibanezgomez3031
3 жыл бұрын
I was waiting for this episode.
@jasonmorello1374
2 жыл бұрын
Ok, I find so many things in the rhyme of history in this. One being the emotive structure of propaganda, up to today, in the ways that a dissenting voice is tied to breakdown of larger society, and the over use of correlation to causation. When I find your article on the "cathar" religious text, I have parallels to buddha trapped soul, scientology, and a little of qlippoth, so much is rhyming parallels with things being looked at and used right now, even to "cancel culture" where heretic must be exposed, chastised and watched for ever to be unforgiven unless they have priestly connections.
@gg3675
3 жыл бұрын
Regardless of which reading you subscribe to, I think we should identify with the "Cathars" over their oppressors. Either way, the church murdered countless people as a way to expand and solidify their authority, and all of us should take to heart the call to make sure that such atrocities absolutely never happen again.
@DarkMoonDroid
3 жыл бұрын
Yes. When a ruling class picks on one group to demonize, they must invest all their military resources to make war on them and even if they win, they lose because they've created a martyr class. On the other hand, if the ruling class divides the population into 2 groups all they have to use to defeat them is propaganda and they are never exposed as the aggressor. It's important to have values and standards about how governing bodies should treat their population - as well as others outside their jurisdiction. And. One doesn't have to believe in a non-entity in order to maintain those values. I like the idea of The Cathars too. But if I have to let that go, I can. I still recognise that the ruling elites of that time - whether they be christians or just posers - committed attrocities all over the world.
@donjezza
3 жыл бұрын
Just discovered your channel from Let's Talk Religion and I love it, will check out more of your videos for sure :)
@Soldierinthegarden
9 ай бұрын
This guy will have a million subs soon,keep up the fire bro,an old infantry modo too,😁
@JM-qi5dm
3 жыл бұрын
Always great!
@Johannes_Brahms65
3 жыл бұрын
That dualistic view is quite interesting although I personally prefer the non-dual one, where the "imprisonment" of the "soul" is seen as an illusion that needs to be revealed.
@JoeSmith-cy9wj
Жыл бұрын
When a faction in power relies on fear and insecurity, whether from within or without, to maintain power, expect massacre and cruelty beyond belief.
@TheEsotericaChannel
Жыл бұрын
y e s
@chromepixel1044
3 жыл бұрын
It’s interesting you mention the Cathars didn’t believe Jesus was a physical form. It’s what I’ve come to conclude from my own perspective when reading verses.
@johnrohde5510
3 жыл бұрын
In some ways, the resistance of the Count of Toulouse and other Occitane grandees is more easily explained if they are aware there isn't an heretical counter-church to be expunged; that their autonomy is at least in part the real target of the crusade and there is nothing they can do to appease it. As for analogues supporting the sceptical case, the Baphomet heresy ascribed to the Templars seems relevant.
@TheEsotericaChannel
3 жыл бұрын
Yes, to the Templar connection, absolutely.
@robsellars9338
3 жыл бұрын
I agree with you and supplied some bbackground to this point if u read my earlier comments.
@johnrohde5510
3 жыл бұрын
@@robsellars9338 re the crusade: shouting heresy or at least ecclesiastical irregularity was a great way to accommodate greedy nobles and pay an army from expropriated loot. It had been pretty much built into the system of the Merovingian and Carolingian empires: their armies maintaining themselves by internecine looting, and we see it the papal sanctioned invasion of England in 1066 and in the Guelph Ghibelline conflicts.
@sketchportraitstudio6368
3 жыл бұрын
@@johnrohde5510 I think you are bang on the money John and its basically what my posts are pointing to. In this case I forgot to mention why the King of France was also happy to go along with the Pope`s instructions to punish the Heretic knights who had "disobeyed his instructions during the 4th Crusade" (and therefore his primacy of rule). The French king was trying to consolidate the kingdom of France as an absolute monarchy and these Languedoc lands were basically a principality of Spain (aquitane). The peace treaty is basically the terms of the deal whereby the Counts of Toulouse still retain their Royal or Kingly status and by giving their daughter and lands in marriage to the French King, they become part of the bloodline to the throne of the unified kingdom of France. This eventually happens when Henry the IV of Bourbon/Valois from Languedoc becomes King a couple of centuries later!
@overlord5068
3 жыл бұрын
@@TheEsotericaChannel The Templars never worshipped Satan, you pathetic troll
@mtrybu
14 күн бұрын
Thank you, that is really interesting. The problem I see with the witch comparison is that the, let's call it, "witch conspiracy" was always presented in a very exaggerated and fear-mongering way (ex. Witches eating children, flying on brooms, etc). Whereas the description of Cathars is somewhat neutral (good men, rituals) and we don't see them that much being pictured as "evil monsters". That gets me to think that the heresy did exist to some extent in the region, however it was used as an excuse to organise a politically-motivated crusade
@TheEsotericaChannel
14 күн бұрын
That might be true, but to claim something existed we need evidence - that's profoundly missing in this case.
@Dank-gb6jn
Жыл бұрын
With the recent church revival that happened a state or two away from me, perhaps a revival of the study of Christianity and proto-Christian ideologies will come about. Perhaps the Cathars or a neo-Cathar school will come about as well.
@newguy4298
2 жыл бұрын
This reminds me of the devil worship/heavy metal "connection" in the 1980s.
@aminrodriguez4707
Жыл бұрын
What was happening in the Provence and Languedoc was short of a humanist revolution, at all societal levels, and well, you know that structured solid religious entities are allergic to such innovative social movements. It was a precursor of renaissance that was happening in Toulouse and Barcelona. It had to be brought to heel.
@santoss.8150
Жыл бұрын
People still go to the gym and do static stretching before working out, they also still think a big breakfast at 6am is the most important meal of the day. Nuance sciences takes a long time to trickle down into Muggle world.
@hadrian08
Жыл бұрын
It be more compelling if the argument was positively framed about what was in southern France at the time. When historians just negate histories from prior generations it’s hard to see what’s actually the history. We all amazed that Cathars may not be real but obsessing on that is like some recurring dopamine hit for certain psychological types. It would be good to hear how it all ties together into, well, history.
@samrevlej9331
Жыл бұрын
He just discussed the religious context in the video and the Occitan etiquette that could ahve caused misunderstandings. If you want more info, you should check out Robert I. Moore "The War on Heresy" (2012), or Antonio Sennis' "Cathars in Question". In French and specifically on Languedoc/Occitany, there's the 55th issue of "Les Cahiers de Fanjeaux" review, "Le "catharisme" en question" (2020).
@alexanderleuchte5132
3 жыл бұрын
Whenever i hear stories about some kind of "Perfecti" based on a moral purity fetish rooted in the rejection of the "earthly valley of tears" i always am reminded of the "Skoptsy" sect... * shivers *
@thomasvieth6063
3 жыл бұрын
Of course, it could be commendable to be skeptical of skeptics. On the horizon, though, I see the danger of an infinite digress, in which ever more tiny stones get turned to see what else there could be. But I don't see this for this video, which is nice and thorough in the Agnes Nutter sense. So, thank you for a good string of arguments, which, again, may make the persecution look even more dangerous
@samrevlej9331
Жыл бұрын
Historical skepticism isn't about being skeptical for the sake of it. You don't doubt everything a scholar puts forward just on the basis of "well it's possible this could be wrong". Especially for medieval times, 100% certainty is very difficult to attain and if a position is based on evidence that meets criteria agreed upon by a consensus of scholars who may differ in all else, you can't refute it without good evidence - or rather point out a lack of evidence. In this case, the skeptics point out that the traditionalists were taking ecclesiastical and inquisitorial sources at their word, which isn't what a historian is supposed to do. The lack of contextualisation for the religious ambiance of the 1200s, the dearth of evidence for an actual "heretical' counter-Church, the specific cultural norms of Occitania/Languedoc at the time, plus the parallel with the Early Modern witch-hunts and their creation of a perfect victim through confirmation bias: all of that should make us skeptical of claims of a full-blown organized dualist heresy close to the heart of Catholicism.
@k98killer
Жыл бұрын
You'd think that the Catholics would have understood the power of the blood of martyrs and avoided founding an opposed religious movement by creating martyrs.
@WhoeverNevermind
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the video
@Garyescargo
7 ай бұрын
I bet the priests that propagated the cathar conspiracy were like,"Wait, what? People are actually practicing this doctrine? We've created a monster". Or maybe not, who knows.
@gen1exe
2 жыл бұрын
I always through the original "cathar priests" might have been st francis-types who were seen as a threat by the established church. There are also strange similarities to the persecutions of the Knights Templar by the King of Francis. And, as those who argue against a widespread Gnostic movement point out, the fact that a monk or priest wrote a tractate doesn't mean there was a whole congregation of disciples behind him.
@larrybuzbee7344
3 жыл бұрын
Heresy Studies? Count me in! I have a lifetime of practical experience, so can I get equivalency credits? It would be doubly awesome if it were offered in Hereshey, Pa. I have no dog in the big fight, but it's fun to watch. May the fewest invisible entities win.
@TheMoeShun
2 жыл бұрын
wow, i love this channel soooooooo much!
@yichengyi
2 жыл бұрын
Awesome presentation! I wonder how much of the Albigensian gnostic tradition was expressed in troubadour culture such as amour courtois and Arthurian legend. Thank you immensely for the book recommendations!
@tzimisce1753
Жыл бұрын
I can think of a few reasons why Catharism can easily, really have happened. For one; you only need the literacy rate to rise disproportionately in an area, and for them to then read the Bible, and believe things like 2 Corinthians 4:4 literally. Or just one person to spread a view among his peers in a convincing way for it to take root Learning to read and write isn't difficult, but becoming a scholar takes a lot of time, so literacy is far more accessible than database-like knowledge. And some places like Novgorod had literacy rates up to 90% around the 13th century. Something happened there to facilitate that. It would be more incredible for me to believe that there was not a single place in all of Europe where this did not happen until the 16th century. So if we were to find that literacy rates were higher in Languedoc than in the rest of Europe, that could be a clue. Secondly, I think we would have to imagine what the persecution ought to have looked like, if we were to assume that there really were Cathars. It's not like the church would tolerate them if they existed. And it's not like they would not ask tough questions or try to expose the heretics - if they're intent on finding them, they'll do anything to uncover them. And they did not necessarily have to be named immediately. Christians did not have their name until the events in Acts 11:26, when Barnabas takes Saul to Antioch where Christians get their name "Christians". This was 10 years after the alleged crucifixion and condemnation.Who knows if they would have gotten their name had the matter not come to the state. Same thing with the Shiia and the Sunnis, they did not get that exact name directly, it came sometime after the events happened that split them apart. So the culmination may sometimes be necessary before a name is given, before it becomes notable enough for a name to be given.
@samrevlej9331
Жыл бұрын
This is baseless speculation, not based on the context but in other places. 13th-century Languedoc isn't Novgorod, there isn't evidence that there is higher literacy there than anywhere else (if you find a source that says so let me know), and there are other factors that precipitated things like the Reformation. Again, you're taking the Church's word for it that there are dualist heretics there, which is what they were trying to find based on their own fears at the time. The name isn't the issue here. Nobody calls them "Cathars" until well after the fact is done. This isn't how historical research is done. It's not about theorizing on empty air about what could have happened and jumping from assumption to assumption. Even if you go looking for evidence for a theory, what could probably happen is confirmation bias: you're sure of your theory, therefore anything going your way is taken as gospel truth and anything else is dismissed as propaganda. In short, doing the same thing as the Church authorities finding heretics where they were looking for them.
@thenablade858
Жыл бұрын
Novgorod may have had a very high literacy rate, although our prime evidence from this comes from the amount of manuscripts written respective to the population (Around 30,000). What you said about Novgorod is interesting, seeing as the Novgorod Chronicle claims that mankind was created by the Devil and God and that the body goes to the earth while the soul goes to God. Not entirely similar to Cathars, but a similar philosophy that pits two powerful creation beings against eachother.
@johnnygate3399
Жыл бұрын
Do you know these two books: C. L'Estrange Ewen: Witch Hunting and Witch Trials : The Indictments for Witchcraft from the Records of the 1373 Assizes Held from the Home Court 1559-1736 AD and Witchcraft and Black Magic by Montague Summers ? They are very informative.
@richardlilley6274
2 жыл бұрын
Oddly I remember subscribing as watched a few of your uploads... Seems YT unsubscribed me... Just corrected that error Thank you for sharing your knowledge and investigations
@stilltoomanyhats
6 ай бұрын
Maybe the real cathars were the friends we made along the way.
@olegkirovskii2720
3 жыл бұрын
Calling something that commenced in mid XIX century "surprizingly recent" -- that's why I love historians (Historians of WWII cry)
@beth7935
2 жыл бұрын
I'm worse- I like Mediaeval history, & I'll call the 18thc "recent", which causes endless confision 😂 And much earlier in some cases- I'll say buttons were invented "recently", cos the 14thc IS recent when you consider how long people have been wearing clothes!
@johnmrke2786
5 ай бұрын
I'm a bit late to respond so I don't honestly expect an answer, but I'm curious about the patristic heresiology mentioned at / around 13:30. I am missing the followup in the video (it may have gone over my head). Can I get a timestamp or an elaboration on this concept? Is it the 21:40ish area where Dr. Sledge talks about the misreading of local religious customs? I am not familiar with patristics. Oh, at 23:00 is the early patristic source discussion. So they may have been using papers that were reacting to Gnostics? Like Irenaeus?
@TheEsotericaChannel
5 ай бұрын
Yep, or Hippolytus, etc.
@Yentzie
8 ай бұрын
To be fair, most fish don’t really do “sexual union” more of a “spray and pray” strategy.
@everestrada9141
7 ай бұрын
A couple of things I noticed This is unsettlingly similar to the Red Scare abd the Satanic Panic and given current conspiracy theories and political accusations in American politics, I’m more than a little unsettled Second, seeing how brutal the execution of the “Cathars”, “witches”, “Gnostics”, and various Jewish persecutions were, I’m surprised by how relatively successful the Protestant Reformation was, it really could have been stamped out early and been one of many forgotten uprisings and heresies There are probably many other factors involved but something I can’t help noticing is maybe the fact that there was initially a united and organized religious dissidence movement made a difference in the Reformation. There was no real witchcraft, there was no real Jewish conspiracy, and there was no real Cathars. Any success there was against an enemy that never existed and all failures at stamping out the “enemies of Christianity” were failures against actual organized movements. Food for thought
@tinawalker8174
3 жыл бұрын
Fabulous video.
@zelenisok
3 жыл бұрын
yes! im a dualist, love to see dualism mentioned. cathars, bogomils, tondrakians, paulicians, manicheans, mazdakians /khurramites, zoroastrians. maybe some ebionites and essenes? marcionites, cerdonians, and i think i read somewhere that some other early christian group was dualist too, but i cant remember which.
@juliawitt3813
9 ай бұрын
Your logical video has earned you a new subscriber sir ! Those who cling emotively to an old theory, should, in my opinion , humbly, not be allowed to buy a microwave oven or operate a smart phone 😂😂😂😉 well done....
@ivilivo
Жыл бұрын
I guess the term gnostic is modern, or at least after. But so is Christianity, Jesus was a jew, and many of his succeeding followers. So I think it is still a usable description for various beliefs that profoundly differ from what was to become Catholic Christianity. And, I was under the impression that "christians" where all over Europe (spread through Roman territories), before Rome officially adopted Christianity as their state religion. So it doesn't seem too far fetched that some of these beliefs had stayed.... and the C.church placed all these various sects under one umbrella they called chatars. I'm looking forward to seeing more of your in depth studies.
@sketchportraitstudio6368
3 жыл бұрын
Interesting new views on these events. Maybe more tangible ones will emerge as we get to see the "new evidence" that scholars are relying on for these hypothesis.
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