This speaks volumes about the type of people Zak and Bree are, that they are not afraid to admit that they don't have all the answers and that there are people out there who have valuable information to share. How often do you see an influencer speak highly of other influencers in the same industry. Refreshing and only makes me respect Zak and his advice more.
@messymarcywright6442
3 жыл бұрын
That’s how you know they are compassionate, positive and intelligent. They never stop looking at the Facts and they continue to learn.
@andreachevalier5694
3 жыл бұрын
P]Llp])l]
@andreachevalier5694
3 жыл бұрын
"Here"
@andreachevalier5694
3 жыл бұрын
Ll)
@andreachevalier5694
3 жыл бұрын
Andrea here with Jake
@suzanned5859
3 жыл бұрын
When teaching my 2 yr old rescue dog to have a better recall an old friend of mine, a dog trainer, recommended something that worked so well it still blows my mind. He recommended we take the dog to a 1600 acre off leash park far from any highway call his name and then walk away and keep walking no matter what. When he eventually came to us we were to reward him profusely with treats etc. no matter how long it took. Sometimes it took him a while to find us and I think he got a bit concerned at times but he was always super happy to find us and receive his praise and reward. He now has a near perfect recall. We have been able to recall him from other dogs people and even pray animals like rabbits and such. I will still leash him near roads and cars but for the other distractions like other dogs and live stock he is pretty perfect. I realize this was a bit aversive. It also taught my dog that we were not going to come after him and restrict the situation that was interesting to him. It taught him to make that decision himself and he would then be rewarded.
@freyatheuncontrollablesaus3202
2 жыл бұрын
This is how I trained my two year old dog with a high prey drive I would go to a safe area and as soon as she ran to something I would keep walking call her name and reward her when she came I feel that Zak’s training is most effective because he makes it clear that you can control a dogs environment where as other trainers shove dogs into an environment that it is imperative that the dog comes back immediately and of corse that is what happens in the real world but anyone that has a dog has the means to ease a dog into these things so why not take the time to do that and bond with your dog along the way
@CrayolaCoffeeBean
2 жыл бұрын
First off, that’s so cool! Second, you know what comes to mind and is making me curious? Lol Kulning. Look up Jonna Jinton… I want to try this with a dog 😆
@Christopher-vf6kx
Жыл бұрын
Worked with one of my Australian Shepherds, the other one not as much. Had to simply close the front door on the one that would not come into the house when called. She eventually asked to come in and decided being out front when everyone else is inside playing / eating / snuggling isnt a good life choice for her.
@patmunro3531
Жыл бұрын
@@freyatheuncontrollablesaus3202 How to "ease" the dog into NOT chasing [to kill] a hare before the farmer shoots her for scaring his sheep!!
@bethkroa1125
3 жыл бұрын
“Basically, I try to just look and learn from people who are way smarter than me. I think that is the best life hack ever.” AGREED! A humble and teachable mindset is open to growth and change. Nicely done all the way around through the video in handing the new studies responsibly.
@carlsong6438
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah but if you think animal behavior researchers are the cream of the crop in terms of intelligence, you got another think coming
@TheWackler
Жыл бұрын
How else are you are you supposed to learn 😂
@alishal6031
3 жыл бұрын
I love videos like this and hearing all different points of view! I love how diplomatic you both are about this sensitive topic. I hope you guys continue to make videos like this!
@mesmartgnome
3 жыл бұрын
I commend you on being able to give George up. It was obvious you bonded with him. Sometimes though, the greater good requires tough decisions and what you’re doing is amazing. 👏👏👏
@Poetrybyseanoconnor
3 жыл бұрын
Off the batt, I am so impressed by how many trainers you cite and follow...as a merely budding trainer in training, that’s really inspiring for me. Thank you !
@JoaoSantos-mr6nk
3 жыл бұрын
This new evidence definetely made me more confident on the method a chose to train my dogs. Great video, Zak!
@RobertCabralDogs
3 жыл бұрын
Zak, great info. Much respect for your honesty and openness in addressing this issue. I will post my opinion today!
@sixkings7831
3 жыл бұрын
Explain to the community that a shelter dog may need something more than 100% positive training . You work In Shelters. Im just worried about the dogs that don’t have the luxury time . I know you can explain the shelter dogs issue better than anyone . Ty
@thelabandtheyork4031
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much. I’m a trainer and one style of training does not fit every dog in every situation. Positive first always but sometimes it doesn’t work so you have to try something else to get results so you can help the dog and their owners. ❤️
@alisha_madariaga
2 жыл бұрын
@@sixkings7831 he does… ALL the time . On his channel. His channel is THE go-to channel for me (referring to Robert Cabral’s channel I mean )
@alisha_madariaga
2 жыл бұрын
Really nice to see the response from @robert Cabral . I think it’s great when professionals from different philosophies can still show respect to one another in such ways . Makes me like him even more than I already did
@sixkings7831
2 жыл бұрын
@@alisha_madariaga I agree Robert is the best .
@macfanguy
3 жыл бұрын
I love how you mention your mistakes, learning as you go along, like the water spritzers.
@SoulRollerFIN
3 жыл бұрын
There was a similar bombshell in Finland not too long ago when a shock collar video came out. It has been really great. Those trainers are getting weeded out of the finnish kennel association.
@janhankins911
3 жыл бұрын
I know shock collars are illegal in many European countries (I wish there were illegal here in the U. S.). I thought they were banned in Finland? Do so "trainers" still use them despite the ban?
@laululla
3 жыл бұрын
@@janhankins911 There are a group of people within german shepard society and protection training community that seemingly have used painful methods trying to train their dogs.
@reijaalasorvari4684
3 жыл бұрын
Using pain and fear in animal training is illegal in Finland and I, as many believed remote control e-collars are illegal yet I have not seen where exactly it is deemed unethical or illegal by authorities. I do know that there is definition how short the prongs have to be in a prong collar. I have never seen a prong or a remote collar in a Finnish pet store nor on a pet dog in Finland. I might have seen a prong in a disguise (covered by a nylon strap) on a Malinois once but I don't know for sure. Anyways, the law is one thing and enforcing it another. I have known that some Finnish dog training circles aren't gentle on the dogs and can be very forceful but I had no idea it went that far and into straight up cruelty and violence before those videos leaked out. We do have many good and knowledgeable trainers that even if they aren't all completely force-free they treat their dogs fairly. Time will show what we learned and if things got better or just taken further underground. There is a new animal welfare law on the way and it should give better definitions for unethical breeding and unacceptable training methods and devices (breeding sick animals has been already illegal yet no authority has done anything until now, as last year there was a report that addressed extreme structure of bulldogs and some other brachy breeds the kind of breeding sick animals that is illegal). The current law is too vague, it cannot be enforced properly. We'll see. The thing is that the true difference starts in attitudes because if they don't change the abusers will just find another way to hurt their dogs for performance.
@GemzaStar09
3 жыл бұрын
@@reijaalasorvari4684 Here in the UK e-collars are banned, you also won't find prong collars in ANY pet store either. Funny enough I recently went into my local pet stores and asked if they sold martingale collars and they all looked at me with a shocked expression and said that none of them sell them, so I'm assuming they are on their way out also. One store however still sells slip leads but not martingale collars which confused me a little.
@reijaalasorvari4684
3 жыл бұрын
@@GemzaStar09 Although martingales were probably designeds as an alternative to a choke collar, removing them from the market is weird. Adjusted a bit differently to avoid it being too tight it is a very practical collar for everyday use as it is very easy and quick to slip on and off. I use a wide one made of nylon for walks and especially agility classes. All nylon, no chain in my dog's collar. Some people think it is difficult to escape and use it thus.
@helen7751
3 жыл бұрын
I do believe that we should strive to use positive training as much as we posibly can. However i do think that it is important that we teach or dog no. As it can sometimes be really frustrating for a dog to find out what we want from them. By telling them that is not it that brings them the reward they want. I think it is a important part of comminucation. I will also say using aversive methods might be neccesary in cases were either dog, human, or other animals are in imidiate danger. For example a while back I pushed a lips over it's teeth so i could force the mount open (if they bite down they will bite their lips). She found a cooked bone in the grass (invisible for me) if she ate that she probably would have needed surgery and could have died. trading was not an option (not toy motivaded and can only have her own kibble due to allergies). Of course this is not a training method but it showes that in the end you cannot fully control the enviorment outside your own property. So I believe you will sometimes have to do things in a less ideal manner. But as long as you strive to train in a positive way that respects the dog that should be enough. Lastly we should be carefull to say that all tools that can be used to punnish dogs should always be banned as some have their uses. Slipleads are amazing for dogs that are scared of being leashed as they are very easy to put on for example when catching lose dogs or for dogs in shelters). I also knew someone with a deaf dog. Really wel trained in visual commands checkt in with her al the time. But if he was of leash he was wearing a e-coller. She trained it so he knew that vibrate meant come to me imidiatly so she could call him back if a dangerous situation would arise. The amount of times she ever had to use it could be counted on one hand. I believe in this case the positives outweigted the stress the e-coller might have caused as in my eyes it did in the end increase the quality of life for the dog. So it is important to keep an eye on what is the best method for each dog individually. and weigh the positives against the negatives and try or best to do the best we can
@jeraytirre6332
3 жыл бұрын
I agree. I love how George has taught me to train my dogs! I have heelers. One of our heelers we adopted at 5 months and he is so friendly towards people, but not towards other dogs. We hike almost daily and I use a prong collar. I rarely have to use it as a tool. But I will say occasionally I have and it’s been helpful to stop him when he wasn’t focused on leave it or look at me.
@guitarman3001
3 жыл бұрын
In my opinion, it's easier to teach them the behavior we want rather than what we don't want. It's much more frustrating when we tell a dog "no" and they sit there wondering "ok, so what exactly does this person want me to do??" Show them what you want them to do. Give them a clear alternative behavior. Also, your middle paragraph describes emergency situations, not training situations. If a dog ever attacked my dog, I would do whatever necessary to protect and save my dog. There are methods for breaking up dog fights but a full out dog attack is a much different story. I may not be successful, but I'd use literally everything at my disposal. Taking dangerous food out of a dog's mouth - same thing. Unless the dog has a VERY strong "leave it" or "drop it", you have to dig it out. Again, these are not training situations, these are potential life and death situations. I would not fault anyone for protecting their dog from a potentially fatal attack in any way necessary. As for deaf dogs, they make vibrating collars that simply vibrate and do not have the two metal prongs. No reason to get a shock collar to use it only as a vibrating collar. The prongs in the dog's neck still hurt.
@lisadehart1
3 жыл бұрын
When I brought my puppy home last January I used KZitem to educate myself on how to train my dog. I was especially drawn to trainers like Zak who used positive reinforcement training. What a relief it was not to have to be physically rough or yell at my dog. The bond I have with my dog (Nina) is amazing! I have had previous dogs but never felt this kind of connection. I believe Positive Reinforcement training was the key to enabling this close relationship.
@nachtorchis
3 жыл бұрын
I made mistakes early on in training my dog. I have been feeling guilty ever since. When I heard you say you did as well, I started crying and my dog came up to me from the other room and licked my tears and comforted me. Thanks so much for this video
@guitarman3001
3 жыл бұрын
I think a lot of us made "mistakes" when first starting out with dogs. I know I made a ton of them and even ended up raising a neurotic dog due to my own ignorance and lack of understanding about dog behavior, communication, etc.. I did something about it and went to school to learn about this stuff. It's unfortunate that many people commenting on this video refuse to even attempt to learn and are just doubling down on rationalizing and justifying using aversive methods that can be harmful to dogs. We have a long way to go as a species in general.
@Emily-Hodgins
2 жыл бұрын
I love watching you, Beckman's Training and McCann's. All very well rounded trainer's eith great perspectives on various issues, and I think it's important to listen to many voices when it comes to learning to handle animal behavior and training, especially when we're talking aggression and fear. Thank you for opening up this conversation.
@CrayolaCoffeeBean
2 жыл бұрын
Same! I recently found Will Atherton too and like him so far
@gracieallen8285
3 жыл бұрын
Zak, the most negative I’ve ever seen you with a dog is saying, 'No', which I too deemed necessary. Your training is very positive and you’ve taught me a lot about positive reinforcement.
@janhankins911
3 жыл бұрын
The use of the word "no" or making a noise like "uh-uh" is called a "no reward marker" (NRM). The theory is that this is a "non-aversive" way of letting the dog that he or she is making a mistake. Research on NRM's is scanty, but the one study I've seen (and perhaps others know of other studies; if so, please post them, I'd love to read them) found that for some dogs NRM's actually ARE aversive and that they don't "add" to the training. In other words, dogs who received NRM's didn't do any "better" than dogs who didn't receive NRM's. I have to admit that I do use them, but I'm trying to use them less.
@janhankins911
3 жыл бұрын
Your comment brought up a whole other train of thought for me. I have two very , very different dogs. I train both and use positive methods with both, but I train them very, very differently. My super-sweet and super-sensitive little girl I simply can't us the NRM's on. I tried once and it took two weeks to repair the damage I did with my relationship with her. I have to use very "happy", "excited", "high, squeaky voice", excited "Yay! What a wonderful smart girl you are!" giving lots of pets and praise. My other little guy, NRM's don't phase him and he doesn't care about getting petted ("I can get petted any time" he might think). Give me those treats! He's very "up" and can be "hyper". My praise is totally different with him. It's very low-key and not a high-squeaky, high-pitched "Oh what a good boy! Aren't you smart? How wonderful are you?". My little girl, if I jump around and praise her a LOT, she'll work for me. My little boy, if I jump around and praise him a lot, he won't work for me ("I want the treat, you dumb human!").
@flyezilla
3 жыл бұрын
You can train "no" as a positive interruptor instead, if it's what you default to saying.
@janhankins911
3 жыл бұрын
@@flyezilla Okay, I'm not sure I understand how you do that. "No" is usually used to make a dog stop doing something they "enjoy". You can REDIRECT them with something better, but how do you make "stop doing what you're enjoying" a positive?
@flyezilla
3 жыл бұрын
@@janhankins911 Look at it from the dog's point of view. If "No" means "I have something tasty or fun for you to do, so stop what you're doing and come look!" then it stops being aversive.
@KathiLuise
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you very much, Zak and Bree, for this video! As a former behavioural scientist and now a dog trainer this was very interesting to me. According to AVSAB's definition of aversive training, methods include amongst the obvious also emotional discomfort. Of course, this is scientifically correct. However, I have difficulties imagining (realistic) training (or maybe learning is a better way of putting it) without any form of emotional discomfort. That goes for any learning being, not just dogs. Even a firm "no" or shout can cause emotional discomfort; if you have an emotional bond with your dog, that is. And realistically, even with the world's best management precautions, there will happen situations where I see no other reasonable option as to do something that will cause emotional discomfort. And I would argue that this emotional discomfort is - in those cases - the better option in the long run compared to letting the dog practice stressful/unwanted/dangerous behaviour again. I will, however, never use this in early and intermediate training stages. Another thing you said surprised me. You claimed, that a quitting signal is not positive reinforcement but negative punishment. Now, while I am a firm advocate that no learning experience is ever only positive reinforcement, but always a mix of at best mostly positive reinforcement combined with negative punishment (e.g. if the dog doesn't sit you will after a while take away the treat from in front of their nose), I teach a quitting signal in teeny tiny baby steps with mostly positive reinforcement and as little negatitve punishment as possible. In that way I prevent frustration as much as possible and make the dog feel like they've achieved something great. As a result you get dogs who LOVE this training. In the long run the steps build up to the quitting signal and a behavioural chain that can be generalised into the real world and will greatly improve any issues with impulse control of all sorts. In case you are interested in learning more about how I train up the quitting signal, feel free to contact me via my website bellos-dolmetscher.de/kontakt.html I am also open to learning methods that help me avoid emotional discomfort even more.
@OnTropolis
3 жыл бұрын
I'm so torn right now. I can't seem to get a good answer to this question so maybe you can help.. I am using an e-collar that only beeps and vibrates. No shock/stimulation at all. I use it as a last resort when I can't seem to get my dog's attention in a highly stimulated state. I'm training a service dog, and using positive reinforcement and at 8 months he is doing fabulously. But there are times when he gets worked up, zoomies, another dog in the area and without the luxury of waiting him out when I've tried everything to get his attention back on me. In those rare instances I use the remote for a beep, and usually that breaks his focus on whatever was causing the issue so I can get him back on me and use the reward methods that I'm using 95% of the time. If the beep doesn't work, I buzz/vibrate. He's never appeared distressed about it, but now after hearing this I'm confused. It's not painful, or uncomfortable for him it's just a "hey dude you're losing it right now, focus" I equate to a tap on the shoulder but I can't reach lol. Is that considered aversive?
@PamelaDalmatian
3 жыл бұрын
I am just a nobody, but I don’t get the impression that beeps and vibration are aversive. As you state, it causes no harm, just gets their attention. I have a Dalmatian, and in the community, it is common for them to be deaf and these owners all use these vibration collars, because it is the only way to communicate with their deaf dog in order to get their attention.
@dogsfromthecity
3 жыл бұрын
Playing by the book, it can be considered 'aversive'. But in your case, the dog already understood your system and is understanding that the correction from the collar is a consequence for his own failure to comply. So your case is a win-win.
@OnTropolis
3 жыл бұрын
@@dogsfromthecity thank you! I've been doubting if I should stop using it but I don't want to regress. We're so behind in public access training because of Covid lol
@OnTropolis
3 жыл бұрын
@@PamelaDalmatian thanks for the input! I feel the same way I think
@littlesplines
3 жыл бұрын
Look up positive interrupter, it sounds like you are using one or can train towards one with what you have.
@felonevantol5869
3 жыл бұрын
Hi Zak, could you include in your foster dog series introducing the dog to your cat and training methods for safe cohabitation with a high prey drive dog? I've seen a lot of training videos on this topic that use shock collars but not very many positive reinforcement methods.
@hannahgreene2241
3 жыл бұрын
Most shock collars have a beep and vibrate mode that is meant to precede the actual shock. The only thing I found to deter my high drive dog from chasing cats (besides 24/7 tethering which is insane) is the vibration from an e collar.
@felonevantol5869
3 жыл бұрын
@@hannahgreene2241 Thanks for the info. My dog doesn't chase much he just acts unpredictable, either snapping and snarling or sniffing politely. I've been trying to use desensitization techniques.
@mlynn998
3 жыл бұрын
@@hannahgreene2241 the reason the beeps and vibrations work from an e collar is because the dog knows that if they don’t listen, it will get worse. This is an extremely aversive method and is not good for the welfare of the dog. I’m glad you found a way that works for you, but you could definitely achieve the same results through r+ and not cause your dog stress.
@mlynn998
3 жыл бұрын
@@felonevantol5869 I would say to keep at the desensitization. Reward every time the dog looks at the cat in a relaxed manner. If they’re unable to do that, increase distance or get a better reward.
@hannahgreene2241
3 жыл бұрын
@@mlynn998 for a prey driven dog, being in the same vicinity of something that their soul is screaming for them to chase down and kill… causes them stress. Over time the dog becomes desensitized I didn’t have time to risk my neighbor’s cat’s life with desensitization, my dog needed to know that boundary loud and clear. I taught him a rock solid leave it with steak and (his favorite) string cheese. I keep my eyes on this dog. I give the leave it before his focus on the critter is unbreakable. I make the decision extremely fair to him. If he doesn’t leave it (which he does 97% now) he gets the beep. The vibration is enough to remind him that he’d better end the pursuit, thankfully. When we’re watching cats or small dogs or anything he wants to run up to, he gets stressed out. When I walk out the door without him, he gets stressed out. Stress is ok. When he’s gunning down someone’s pet and he hears that beep, he feels stress so he turns around to come back to me standing there saying “good boy! Good leave it!” When you think about it… he’s stressed for way shorter of an amount of time than the desensitization method. It also makes him SO much more reliable off lead. Trusting my prey driven dog gives both of us incredible amounts of freedom that we otherwise wouldn’t know. Desensitization takes the right timing and resources.. and could take weeks or months to accomplish. I’m sorry, I could write a novel I swear. I just wish I had known about it sooner. I wish I hadn’t used positive ONLY methods like google had prescribed. I wish I’d not seen it as such an aversive evil abuse tool, because it’s REALLY not, and he’s SUCH a GOOD damn boy 🥲
@adam7349
2 жыл бұрын
I had 3 positive reinforcement trainers and 1 balanced trainer. Long story short my dog was aggressive would lunge after joggers, Bikers, large trucks, mailtruck ect. He got kicked out of day care for biting another dog and has another bit record for biting a kid(From prev owner) I had zero control outside with him on walks. One more bite and my dog will have to be put down. The positive reinforcement trainers did not have any success with my dog and just told me to keep working on it and to be patient and I will see results. I could carry a beef brisket with me and my dog could care less. 6 months later I had a shoulder injury from my dog and he came less than an inch from a truck hitting him. I decided to try balanced trainer and he fitted my dog for a prong collar and I saw results within the first session from this. I continued to use the prong collar for another two months in combination with positive reinforcement and now my dog no longer needs the prong collar. Not trying to be rude but when I see results from aversive training compared to positive reinforcement it negates the scientific studies. I still believe more studies need to be done especially with the prong collar as other studies I have seen say that mimics the parent dog biting there puppies. I will say that I am against all the other aversive training tools like shock collars but from my expierence the prong collar gave me that extra boost in my dog training that I needed to make my dog behave on our walks.
@snap-off5383
Жыл бұрын
Your anecdote IS a scientific study that provides "Data".
@erickanorris567
Жыл бұрын
What you were doing with the prong color is not training it's behavior management the difference is the dog behaves due to the prong color not because the dog has learned not to do the unwanted behavior. It allowed you to continue to train aka condition a the desired behaviors and still take the dog off your property. I disagree with the color mimicking the parent , it just plain old causes discomfort and some pain hence the fast response. Unfortunately too many people just slap a prong colar on and don't actually train the animal .
@snap-off5383
Жыл бұрын
@@erickanorris567Dog training is 100% operant conditioning. Dogs do not "understand" human concepts.
@ZimCrusher
Жыл бұрын
The 'study' they a talking about is a series of questions sent to dog owners. It is not a group of scientists doing double blind tests. So EVERY part of the 'study' is an 'anecdote'. I know that I used a balanced method, and get results. Always starting from reward based, and moving away, as needed. I use an e-collar to buzz (vibrate) my dog, when he is off leash and running around. My voice does not carry 100 meters, nor can I get his attention when he is playing, without the vibration. Think of it like the cellphone buzz in your pocket, not like a lightning strike to hurt your dog. We used a prong collar on our dog to stop pulling on the leash. This collar has been sitting in a drawer for about 8 years, now. Reward and Punishment is balanced, and allows the dog to understand boundaries. Dogs in a Pack do not use only Reward based methods to explain the rules of the pack. Balance is Natural.
@LenaDieters11
3 жыл бұрын
Hi Zak, I know you have done a few videos but due to many people living through lockdowns, have you considered doing a more in depth video on dealing with separation anxiety in extreme cases (like velcro dogs i.e. Cockapoos etc)? I think that would help a lot.
@lucianacoutinho4484
3 жыл бұрын
It's important though to explain the difference between positive reinforcement training x no training. Many dog owners justify their dog's misbehavior saying they don't wanna punish their pets.
@anonanonymous1970
3 жыл бұрын
I suspect it's more common for misbehaving dogs to misbehave BECAUSE of aversive measures than lack of training.
@DL-hx2xq
3 жыл бұрын
@@anonanonymous1970 KZitem trolls like you are the best 😂
@anonanonymous1970
3 жыл бұрын
@@DL-hx2xq Wow, way to announce that you mistreat your dog.
@DL-hx2xq
3 жыл бұрын
@@anonanonymous1970 you’re entitled to your wrong opinion, but if you think dogs with balanced training behave worse than untrained dogs, I’m not sure what else to say other than you’re a troll
@miracinonyx265
3 жыл бұрын
You going nuclear on Anon Anonymous and calling him a troll when he just politely disagreed with you probably tells us a lot about why you would not have the patience for LIMA training (Least Invasive, Minimally Aversive) like Zak does. Wow
@alexandradittmann8588
2 ай бұрын
This video is an amazing resource "even" now, 2 years after it was published. Very comprehensive, and thanks to Bree for putting together all those links!
@emilyhalpert-cole8028
3 жыл бұрын
You should speak to Hannah Branigan (Drinking from the Toilet), Sarah Stremming (Cog Dog Radio) and Denise Fenzi! A few of my other favourite dog trainers that I follow (besides your channel ;))! :) I also LOVE Emily Larlham (Kikopup)! It's also been so much more fun to train with positive reinforcement. It's hard, and yes, there are times I've lost my patience, but as a teacher of humans, I know that I would never hit or yell at a student. So why do we do that to our dogs? And, THANK YOU Zak for being awesome and for talking about this! :) Keep doing great work!
@venkateshtv6471
3 жыл бұрын
I respect Beckman
@mmarespect
3 жыл бұрын
Agree
@jfitz1982
3 жыл бұрын
I just bought a service dog at the beginning of the month from a trainer. I am 40, I've owned animals but I've never owned a dog, so training is new to me, I spent a week down there learning all the behaviors, cue's and such. And we did our public service test and Aced it. They use positive re-enforcement. I don't really completely understand everything about adverse training, I am not sure I want to either. I think it's so much fun learning and teaching, and bonding with my new team mate and friend with play and treats and such, and that's good enough for me! new subscriber but I love your videos!!!
@thelabandtheyork4031
3 жыл бұрын
Zak I appreciate you looking at the big picture and being honest that one size doesn’t fit all some situations. Thanks for the video and keep up the great work.
@erincarter7143
3 жыл бұрын
I appreciate they way you both approached putting this out there. I have been working with a positive reinforcement trainer for 2 months now. Unfortunately, my dogs fence aggression is not working with positive training. However, it has in every other area we have worked with him which is promising. When I spoke to my vet she immediately went down the heavy medication route, which the trainer did not want to do. So it's tough for the average dog owner to know who to listen to on this. The trainer? Or the vet? Especially when safety for everyone is involved.
@erincarter7143
3 жыл бұрын
@@ginac2772 thank you. I try to not get frustrated with it and continue with baby step. Currently it's just sitting in the screen porch and trying to disengage him. Until then, we have to monitor him very closely when he is outside for safety.
@katrinaberthe2457
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for approaching this so diplomatically. Great information here for the general public. Moral of the story - do your best to keep your animal’s welfare priority to quick results. Results come using compassion, consistent reinforcement and clear communication.
@phoenixdeleon6390
3 жыл бұрын
Zak and Bree, thank you so much for this video, and all of your wonderful free training content! You have really revolutionized my views on dog training. You asked about things we’d like to see, curious if you’d do a video on the Fluentpet and/or other “talking buttons” and your thoughts on using them as training tools? Very curious to hear your views on this.
@sennapankopf3455
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for posting this video! Not only was the content fascinating, but i also really appreciate the depth in which you guys investigated the studies behind this new position. As far as future videos go, personally I would love to see more of this type of content (getting into the science behind dog behavior and training). But in the meantime, I can't wait for the upcoming series with Chop 😊
@badtrip801
3 жыл бұрын
I think training all depends on the breed and how close you are to the animal what kind of bond you have and I've noticed over the years of training myself that The closer you are with the dog the better they will act and understand you
@liad0x
3 жыл бұрын
I love you and your advice the most from this community SIMPLY because you show EVERY detail, are fully transparent of your thoughts and emotions which are also a part of dog training(!!!!) and you arent afraid to reflect on yourself (which not many people can aka "we are the best dog trainers" as a serious selling point is the most toxic self celebrating thing that simply doesnt exist) plus your love for all dogs is addicting and ofc youre not stereotyping a breed.
@miracinonyx265
3 жыл бұрын
Why can’t I give this comment two thumbs up, I have two thumbs! Great comment, here’s your other thumb👍
@liad0x
3 жыл бұрын
@@miracinonyx265 thank you ill gladly take it :)) i gave you one of mine too so you still have one thumb"
@amandat4065
3 жыл бұрын
As a Certified Dog Trainer that subscribes to LIMA principles when training, this is great news! I love that professionally we continue to move in the direction that dogs are complex beings and that effective training (or BMOD) requires looking at the entire picture: health, nutrition, enrichment, environment, genetics, learning history, reinforcement history, owner, management, compliance/buy in…and the list goes on!! I agree, using rewards based methods and avoiding harsh punishers takes time, effort and education to learn and to train others to use effectively. I always thought of harsh aversive methods like e collars, prong collars, slip chain collars as either a “lazy” way to train or because you truly don’t understand the the impact of the training method you are using on the dog and their mental/ physical health, your bond, and their behavior.
@paulspanish-he2ki
2 ай бұрын
Hey Zak and Bree, just wanted to leave a comment to share that I used an e collar in the past with my dog. It worked, but I noticed that it was affecting his spirit. I didn't like it. I found your videos and am glad that I did. It takes a bit more work to use only positive training methods, however, the bond with my dog is stronger than ever! Thanks for your training videos and sharing the research as well!
@darrellwong4097
3 жыл бұрын
Wow that was a great breakdown of a science based directive. It was very balanced, insightful, open and there was some excellent observations. I can see why you’re such a great trainer Zak. Your attitude is one of constant learning, openness and improvement from observation. Awesome job and thanks Zak and Bree!!!👍👍👍
@NinoTheCorso
3 жыл бұрын
How many high drive Mals have been raised with positive only training? How do you train a working dog, that’s supposed to function under stress, without putting them under stress during training?
@guitarman3001
3 жыл бұрын
Plenty. And you're talking about different kinds of stress. A dog needs to trust its owner/handler 100%. A working dog may encounter stress in its environment. That stress shouldn't come directly from its owner, who is supposed to be the dog's protector.
@NinoTheCorso
3 жыл бұрын
@@guitarman3001 Show me one anywhere online. Any competitor’s dog trusts it’s owner 100%, as an example. Nothing to do with stress. With this logic, training dogs is inhumane to begin with. They deserve to be fed for free, what right does a human have to put them in a crate and make them do unnatural behaviors?! I’m sorry, this is craziness.
@guitarman3001
3 жыл бұрын
@@NinoTheCorso Honestly not sure what your point is here.
@Jay-vp3kk
2 жыл бұрын
@@NinoTheCorso Dogs are denning animals, training them to use a crate properly is not unnatural or cruel. Bad example mate.
@shellybbt
3 жыл бұрын
I have not had time to watch the video yet. I cannot stop thinking how much Bree reminds me of my best friend, who lives in Arizona, and I live in Amsterdam.
@redbarondiscdogs
3 жыл бұрын
Great discussion video. Way to go Zak.
@AnimalAccolades
3 жыл бұрын
R+ (positive reinforcement) has been known to be effective for many years, glad you are talking about it as well. R+ works well for people too, so allow me to say well done on continuing to examine your technique and adapt to continue to learn the best practices!
@breejustine
3 жыл бұрын
🤗🤗
@user-md7mk7fb8g
3 жыл бұрын
This is such an interesting topic. I would love to see other videos of you all dissecting and discussing scientific studies behind dog behavior and training. It is education that is lacking within the average dog owner.
@applehead_mjinnocent3826
3 жыл бұрын
Hi Zak, and Bree I don`t think positive reinforcement is the only thing that works, but I think that`s the best way to train a dog. If you`re training on recall where you call your dog`s name, and they`re supposed to come to you. If your usig positive reinforcement, you would`ve given the dog lots of praise and some treats for comming to you. Another way to do it is if your dog doesnt come to you (I`ve seen people in real life who train like this) is to do something to give them pain, for example punching them, or hold their snout tight till they cry. The person with the dogs that I used to be with used that method (pain) to get their dog to know that when she calls me, I come. And here is the thing. Is it because the dogs wants to come to you, or is it because it fears the consecuence if they dont? If you make the dog want to come to you, instead of making them fear the consecuence if they don`t, it`s not doing anything to make a healthy bond between you and your dog, that should be the 1. priorotize when having a dog, as you talked about in the Interia series. And thats why I love you so much, I`ve learned much of you. Watching where things doesnt go as it was planned, and when it works. Long message, but this is very important to me to talk about. Negative reinforcement can work. But it`s not because the dog wants to.
@Pamsdogacademy
3 жыл бұрын
Counter conditioning using positive reinforcement is how I trained my border collie Bandit when he was young and what some would call “aggressive” towards dogs and humans. Mainly reactivity… He ended up LOVING dogs and people in the end. I will say that it took constant training, setting him up to succeed, and took me a few years to really see him make a complete change in his behavior. I love this discussion and could give many different examples of how force free training has changed my dogs and client dogs, as well as create an amazing relationship with dogs. I also personally believe that aversives do not have to be “training” tools. Dogs tell us through their body language if they feel “punished”. I honestly look at teaching dogs as kids are taught. Just like kids, dogs should also have a choice or free will. No one is perfect and to expect dogs to be perfect is unrealistic. Constantly managing behaviors/environment in addition to rewarding behaviors we like will cause the dogs to do those behaviors better and more reliable. People don’t change because like you said they have been practicing their craft and have seen results with how they train, so why find a “better” or “different” way to train… I could literally go on and on… But I have a new puppy and honestly this is the longest I have watched a video in a long time. 😊😊
@zakgeorge
3 жыл бұрын
We’ll said! While I do not use aversive tools, there are certainly things in my training that can cause a dog to “feel” punished. Moving forward, I want to be even more sensitive to these events and prevent them as much as reasonably possible.
@Pamsdogacademy
3 жыл бұрын
@@zakgeorge I know what you mean. As I was rehabilitating Twix from his back surgeries, there were times when I knew he was afraid, but the great thing about positive reinforcement is the bond that I had built with him. He might have been afraid in some situations (example: his first time in the underwater treadmill), but he trusted me due to our connection through prior training, and he was not as afraid. Sometimes we do the best we can in a particular moment and learn how to be better next time. That is what learning is all about. I vowed early in my training career that I would find a way to train everything I was confronted with using positive force free methods. I was very lucky to be friends with Kikopup (Emily Larlham) and learn a lot from her. I also feel that every dog comes into our life to teach us something, and my dog Bandit was my best teacher. 😊
@KM-mw3jp
3 жыл бұрын
Unrelated to this video and all, I would love if at some point you could do a series with a highly nervous or skittish dog! I just adopted a previously abused Australian Shepherd who is just the sweetest little man ever but he’s super anxious. Like jumps if you move to fast, scared of hands, scared of leashes, kind of anxious. I would love to see how you get them to trust you and how you modify training techniques to fit their needs.
@karenbonham1359
3 жыл бұрын
So I did 7.5 years of positive all the things. Finally I got a balanced trainer with strategic correction I can FINALLY go on a walk and to the beach with my happy well adjusted dog.
@mlynn998
3 жыл бұрын
Your dog is afraid. That’s why they’re listening to you. I think you were likely not using the correct r+ techniques if it wasn’t working for 7 years. That simply does not follow the science.
@karenbonham1359
3 жыл бұрын
@@mlynn998 my dog did not read the science she is a great dog that needed both positive and corrections to be happy and whole. She is not afraid of me but respects me and has a much better life. Avoiding everything she was " not ready" to do made our world very very small. Now we can enjoy walks and beaches without her flipping out at everything that breathes. Best to you and yours!
@Ryan-re1rs
2 жыл бұрын
@@mlynn998 um, or some dogs just need that extra pop in thier training. So sick of hearing kisses and treats will do everything.. and stupid you go right to respect like you know that must be it..
@Jay-vp3kk
2 жыл бұрын
@@karenbonham1359 You're not supposed to avoid everything they're not ready to do forever, you're supposed to pro actively train them before they do things they're not supposed to do. So for example, your dog is barking at people - you train them from the ground up to make them internalize the behavior of how to treat people before putting them in those situations again rather then reprimanding them after already being in that situation. I'm glad you found a way that worked, I'm just saying it doesn't seem like you followed through on the assignment so it's not surprising it didn't work for you.
@karenbonham1359
2 жыл бұрын
@@Jay-vp3kk I am happy you have a solution that worked for you. My solution works for me and my dog. Win win I just can't understand how you think you know what would be better for us knowing nothing about me or her tells me all I need to know. Have a great life!
@mamabear1078
3 жыл бұрын
I have a ten month old German Shepherd who is training to be my service dog. In addition to positive reinforcement I also use a prong collar for training with her and will also use an e collar. I have tested the prong collar on myself FIRST and I also tested the ecollar on myself FIRST before I ever put it on my pup. My pup is happy, well socialized and healthy. I do not agree with their new statement at all.
@guitarman3001
3 жыл бұрын
Do you also disagree with the research and studies their statement is based on? If so, do you have any studies that show the opposite?
@TheGypsy424
3 жыл бұрын
Loved George. He’s such a sweetie.
@imptiger8260
Жыл бұрын
I grew up watching Victoria Stillwell on It's Me or the Dog. I'm so glad you admire her
@k9mutttraining
3 жыл бұрын
I have used R+ way before it actually caught on. People would watch me and think I was nuts. But they could not argue with the fact the relationship and dogs over all actions of the dog was much better. Glad the world is catching up to those of us that have been doing it for a long time. Your video is explaining to folks is a easy to understand what it is all about-- Great video.
@darien.a.j
3 жыл бұрын
I have the utmost respect for science in general, but this really feels a lot like science with an agenda (plenty of historical precedence), though I haven’t had a chance to look through the studies that are quoted. Now in large part I very much appreciate the agenda of the science. Causing fear and pain to the degree that harms animals is not acceptable, but to provide consequence in the form of discomfort or mild pain in a way the dog understands is a result of their actions is a logical way to achieve compliance without harming the relationship. Mine is also only one case study as well and I don’t have prior experience, but I decided to introduce e-collar training to my giant Schnauzer at about 7 and 1/2 months old. Before starting I read a fair amount, watched too many videos, and made sure she already knew and understood her basic commands. She’s only about 10 months old now she wears the e-collar for every walk. It’s activated at low levels multiple times per walk. She walks off leash in areas where traffic is low, she walks off leash past other dogs, past cats, past running Squirrels, etc.. She has only experienced two “corrections” over the level of 10 (this collar goes up to 130) once for chasing a cat and the other was my fault for letting her off leash before she was ready. She has no fear of me, she has no fear of the collar, she’s always happy to head off on our walks, and only starts whining if my wife and other dog are further ahead and I won’t let her catch up.. I spent a lot of time making sure she understood what the collar sensation means and how to shut it off at a level that is hardly noticeable (somebody, “but we can never know how the dog perceives the collar!” True the same way I’ll never know how you see blue but we can make some pretty intelligent assessments. If the dog hardly blinks theirs probably not much sensation, dog scratches at the neck: likely some irritation, dog shakes its head: probably some discomfort, dog yelps and jumps a foot off the ground: probably hurts and this level should not be used and I’m willing to bet is what ends up mostly being referenced in these studies). A large part of why my wife and I decided to train the e-collar is we backpack and hike and paddle board camp etc.. some would say keep your dog on a leash, actually many + the law in most cases, There are often places we hike where the trail gets difficult to navigate and if the dog goes down too fast and pulls the leash it could pull you down the rocks. Being able to click out of the leash is very beneficial. Also, I’m willing to bet that if the dog could choose between having some freedom to go do “dog stuff” around the campsite and potentially get buzzed for running after a deer or be stuck to a line and a tree the dog would choose getting buzzed. Much like you choose to drive your car with the potential to get a ticket if you go to fast, but the dog can’t conceptualize a ticket so discomfort/pain is one of the few options we have. The part of this statement that really gets me annoyed is the part where you’re just supposed to avoid situations and manage your environment. Sure when you’re training you want to build up to things with your dog, but to outright avoid situations vs teach your dog what it “can’t” do not just what it can do in situations just isn’t logical. The “alpha” pack thing does need to stop being propagated the wolf study is bad science however, when raising a dog I do believe we want to raise an animal that looks to it’s humans to make a decision, and used correctly/compassionately aversive tools can help with this.
@leialofgren7976
3 жыл бұрын
Yes it definetly feels like an agenda, I'm all for positive reinforcment but sometimes enough has to be enough. As for the whole "aplha" thing, it often gets out of hand but I think the core concept of being a leader for your dog is very important. It shouldn't be about brutal domination and side submissions, it should be more like parental guidance with fair punishments and earned rewards. That's what I think so many people get wrong.
@darien.a.j
3 жыл бұрын
@@leialofgren7976 Yes, totally agree, and the science shows that while dog/wolf packs don't really do alpha, they are led by their parents. Ultimately in any group somebody has more say in decisions than others do. I also agree that many people get their punishments wrong. One reason I really like the e-collar is it provides fast wireless communication and is variable so it can become a punishment if needed with the severity of the punishment matching the offense.
@jeannemundt8851
3 жыл бұрын
My dog is dog reactive, and NOT food motivated. I've been using a prong collar on our walks, so that if we can't avoid another dog, I can try to get his attention back to me and off the other dog. I try really hard to avoid putting him in situations where his reactivity goes off. How can I get his attention back to me without food rewards? The prong collar breaks his reaction. I use "leave it" too, but it doesn't work if he's gone over his threshold.
@miracinonyx265
3 жыл бұрын
What about a toy or a brief tug session? Is your dog toy motivated?
@hippiebits2071
3 жыл бұрын
Also try to build overall focus from the dog so his attention isn't all over the place to begin with. I am absolutely not minimizing your issue this can be a real challenge with some dogs. Have you tried a wide variety of different foods and training before meals(no question some dogs just aren't food motivated tho).
@jeannemundt8851
3 жыл бұрын
@@miracinonyx265 I haven’t tried a toy, but I will bring one next walk and see if it works. I appreciate all ideas! Having a reactive dog has been really hard. He’s so smart, and I just want him to be a happy dog!
@jeannemundt8851
3 жыл бұрын
@@hippiebits2071 That is a good suggestion. I'll start working on trying to keep his focus on me more. And yes, I've tried all different types of food rewards (and our walks are always before a meal), but he just cares MORE about another dog than he does about the food. I so appreciate the suggestions!
@jeannemundt8851
3 жыл бұрын
@Ingenue Games We were part of a local "dog group" which met twice a week, prior to the pandemic. He REALLY improved, and although it was pretty much the same 20 dogs we were working with every week, it was EXTREMELY helpful. Then the pandemic hit and dog group closed down. And, our home is way off the road, so we have no neighbors or other dogs walking by. So, he got right back into his reactivity. I do use praise when he looks to me, and is calm. That makes sense about the neck pain actually reinforcing the reactivity. What is a haltie? Currently I use the prong collar AND a harness on him. He weighs about 70 pounds and is very strong. Thanks for your suggestions!!!!
@athroneofgames7340
3 жыл бұрын
This is amazing, and long overdue. We have had our rescue Greyhound for seven weeks and have benefited from watching your videos, also Kikopup and others who don't use aversive training techniques. Sadly there are a lot of trainers on KZitem who I don't respect as they use aversive techniques and subscribe to the idea that dogs must be dominated into submission. I'm so glad you are putting out content that aligns with how we want to train our dog...even if you do use clickbait video titles. ;-P
@CieraIZ
3 жыл бұрын
I do balanced training with my dogs and 99% of what we do is positive reinforcement only. I've been watching your videos for years because I love the deep understand and connection you form with your dogs. I think the data that AVSAB is still too limited to make the statement they released. They lump aversives together which isn't ideal. I use slip leads, prong collars, and e-collars (muscle stimulation - not shock and that distinction is relevant and not talked about in AVSAB's statement) but I do not yell at, hit, or otherwise physically manipulate the dog. I also never crank up the e-collars high - we've never used ours above 50 and working levels are under 15. Dog behavior is incredibly subjective and there isn't enough funding in place to conduct the kind of study needed to make final calls about methods. There's also a question of where the line is drawn - especially with tools like slips and head haltis (which I'd say are aversive but know others think they aren't). I'm grateful for you guys with having these conversations without being totally one-sided. I look forward to future data, especially with dogs with severe problems, since AVSAB didn't actually have an answer for that, and simply refers to other professionals without giving tangible guidance.
@karstentopp
3 жыл бұрын
I would not use with my dog what I would not use with a kid. My dogs - Border Collies - are about the same as three year old kids, same impulse, same curiosity, same intelligence.
@CieraIZ
3 жыл бұрын
@@karstentopp dogs aren't kids and I don't think it's appropriate to say dogs should be treated as kids
@karstentopp
3 жыл бұрын
@@CieraIZ They are not the same, but their intelligence, impulse and emotions are ery similar. And I say I wouldn't do to dogs what I wouldn't do to kids - not the other way around. Dogs are dogs. But I wouldn't use aversive training as much as I wouldn't use aversive education methods. Note: I differentiate between dog trainig and human education...
@jettandwilly
3 жыл бұрын
I don't think you understand what positive punishment means. You are applying something unpleasant enough to a dog that it wants it to stop. Shock or "stim" doesn't matter .... potato potahto ... it still has to be aversive enough to the dog to make it want to stop the behavior so that the stimulus stops. The dog gets to decide what is aversive. So your distinction of the ways it's okay to inflict pain/fear on a dog based on your human understanding is hair splitting. 35 is fine but yeah 36 is inhumane. I don't yell at them, I just apply 579 psi to their larynx with a lot of pointy metal. If it stops a behavior, it is punishing to the dog.
@roshi1738
3 жыл бұрын
MY BOY BECKMAN GOT A SHOUTOUT LETS GOOO
@Flutterby411
3 жыл бұрын
I started with McCann, I love AbsoluteDogs, and Beckmans is helping me, but you are awesome because it's real life stuff, and you show the moments you even feel defeated at times...you have helped me deal with my own anxieties working with my dog in public. And Moira and George are like my dog in lots of ways. I struggle with barking.
@gillgirllee
3 жыл бұрын
Hey Zak, I am a trainer. I am 90% positive and will use positive whenever I can to work through a behavior issue. I definitely ALWAYS use luring and food rewards to teach behaviors. Having said that, I cannot understand how anyone in their right mind believes that all positive is the be all, end all of training. I just free shaped my 4 month old shepherd puppy to fetching a ball. He is doing great and now is going further distances after the ball and bringing it all the way back. However, my puppy taunts my older shepherd unless I intervene. All the positive reinforcement I have tried isn't doing anything to stop him. I tried mild corrections with a short and quick voice correction which stops it momentarily. But right back to it he goes. As the handler of the both dogs, I must do something to ensure the safety of my puppy and the fairness to my older dog who did not ask for this stress in his life. I put a pinch collar on my puppy and just applied the mildest pressure (not a snap) when he started after my old dog. Just barely any pressure. He got the point and for the rest of the night he didn't bother my dog again. All positive training, though a lovely thought has caused more dogs to end up in a shelter and ultimately their death because of problems that could be dramatically reduced and eliminated. The dog needs to know what is unacceptable. No amount of hot dogs will do that. It only teaches a dog what to do. I don't know how many of those veterinary scientists own horses. But if they do, guaranteed they ride with bits in the horses mouths. My other alternative is to kennel the dog every time he pesters my old guy. Locking in a crate for long periods of time is cruel and stressful. It doesn't address the problem at the moment. Now, I only have to give a firm "No" and he understands it will be backed up by physical pressure. I don't even need the pinch now. It's off of him. Problem solved. Otherwise, my old dog will do what I should have done, physically correct him. But I risk my puppy being injured by the big dog. It's my job to keep everyone safe and peace in the house. All tools can be used improperly. These tools should be taught to people on how to use them correctly. Any device, even harnesses can hurt dogs. Used correctly, tools are there to help. Most dogs never have the freedom to run and enjoy life off leash. That is part of why so many end up with problems. Pent up energy and no outlet for it. E collars made the entire difference to my dogs who enjoy a life of freedom. I would rather my dog not approach a rattlesnake or head towards a street. If mild discomfort can save his life, it's worth it to me.
@guitarman3001
3 жыл бұрын
"All positive training, though a lovely thought has caused more dogs to end up in a shelter and ultimately their death because of problems that could be dramatically reduced and eliminated." --- Having actually worked in shelters I can say this is not accurate. What has caused more dogs to end up in shelters due to behavior problems is NO training, incorrect applications of training methods because the owners had no clue how to train their dogs or what +R training is or how it works, and those owners' subsequent attempts to "fix" their dogs by using aversives. It was easy to pick out the dogs that had been "trained" using aversives. My job was to do the best I could to make those dogs adoptable after their owners' ham-handed attempts at what they thought was training. The potential for an aversive punishment to have unintended negative consequences is much greater than the same potential for properly applied +R methods. BTW, I'm glad you were able to solve your issue with a mild aversive. No one is saying dogs can't learn this way. Sometimes skilled trainers can use these methods successfully with minimal damage to the dog. The same does not apply to untrained and uneducated (in dog behavior) pet owners who don't understand how dogs learn and have no clue wtf they are doing.
@helenblack9583
3 жыл бұрын
My dog with high prey drive would not be alive without the support of the use of an electric collar, vibrating and perfect timing. She is now 11 years old and have had a full life, mostly off leash. Nothing were ‘positive’ enough to change her high drive.
@Christopher-vf6kx
Жыл бұрын
My 8mo Aussies is calmer with a sprenger on walks because she understands what is being asked of her....not hard pulling to play with other dogs just because they are there. Flat collars and slip were not giving her enough information as she never noticed them when she was amped up. We make no corrections other than standing there and rewaring her when she turned back and sat next to us to ask what she should do next. She is just so much happier and engages more actively with a calmer mind.
@stephendurnan3609
Жыл бұрын
Don't confuse fear with calmness. It's fear of punishment that is shutting then down. Prong collars take the fore of the leash and multiply that over a very small area. Compared to a flat collar with several square inches. Say you're using 100 pounds force. And the prongs make up 1/10th of a square inch. That's 1000 pounds force on those prongs. And using that same 100 pounds force and a flat collar, that force is spread out over several square inches.
@sarahnason5994
3 жыл бұрын
As a scientist I really appreciate this video. You are very right when you say scientists hardly ever say “never” or “always” - the wording in this position statement means we should take it very seriously! I think there is actually a lot we can learn from (accredited) zoos here. their staff specialize in welfare and training and they would NEVER use an aversive method given the public scrutiny they are under. Yet they are able to train a wide diversity of wild animals to do many things for cooperative care (e.g., weighing, receiving medications). I believe there is no need for aversive training with animals, and dogs are no exception.
@miracinonyx265
3 жыл бұрын
Wow, this is an excellent point! I’d never thought about the parallels between zoo animals and pets, but you make a lot of sense. As a trained scientist I also appreciated their approach in this video. No gloating here, only a wish to come to an understanding about what’s best for dogs. If strong, peer-reviewed articles concluding e-collars were the best method were published it wouldn’t surprise me to see Zac incorporating them in his videos. That’s what a science-based approach like the one he espouses means. Hopefully other trainers are sensitive to the science as well.
@michelle_nolan
3 жыл бұрын
I really appreciate you being open about your bias and actually focusing on the “opposite” of your viewpoint. After thinking about this more as a Psych Major… why would an organization come out with only ONE way to do something. Wouldn’t that be like the APA (American Psychological Association) saying only one kind of therapy is the right kind?
@breejustine
3 жыл бұрын
Not exactly. They aren’t saying “this is the one way” - they’re saying “current evidence suggests this way is more efficient and better for animals’ long-term welfare”
@michelle_nolan
3 жыл бұрын
@@breejustine do you think the APA says something similar? Not being a hater, just really curious. I’m a science 🧪 nerd too! I’m just trying to apply Human Psychology to Animal Psychology. Thoughts? BTW - I loved this video! I appreciate when the non-dog trainer jumps in… it’s seems you are like all of us “real pet owners!” ❤️
@breejustine
3 жыл бұрын
Yes! That's a really good question. I had not actually looked into it before (although I did learn that the principles of learning theory appear to apply across many species) so I'm sure there are more sources and deeper info on their broad position on learning in humans, reinforcement and punishment, but I did find this position statement that it looks like they have had since 1975! www.apa.org/about/policy/corporal-punishment
@michelleborchardt199
3 жыл бұрын
The APA DOES say only one type of therapy is advised. “American Psychological Association opposes the use of corporal punishment in schools, juvenile facilities, child care nurseries, and all other institutions, public or private, where children are cared for or educated (Conger, 1975).” Dogs, under the guise of a trainer, are in “school”, thus AVSAB does not endorse aversive training, much like APA doesn’t endorse it’s use in children.
@centralflife891
3 жыл бұрын
I appreciate the way you support yourself as a trainer but don’t shame other training ways. I appreciate this video
@Lestat2705
2 жыл бұрын
In Positive only treaining, if the dog does undesirable behaviour and you as trainer ignore the dog, is this not some kind of aversive strategy? Thank you for putting aside your own believes and just being open in looking at this study
@chadlewis896
3 жыл бұрын
Would be very very interested to see what Tom Davis has to say about this.
@Bruno_LEsperance
3 жыл бұрын
The most recent study is given in reference #4. If someone take the time to read that study, in section 2.3 they state that dogs displaying behaviour problems like aggression, separation anxiety, etc. were excluded from the study. This is exactly the kind of case Tom Davis deals with. Many trainers that use aversive will say or claim that they are dealing with very difficult dogs and that is why it is needed.
@DL-hx2xq
3 жыл бұрын
@@Bruno_LEsperance thank you for looking into this! Too many people just take what someone tells them as the truth without critical thought or investigation!
@sammijo125
3 жыл бұрын
Tom Davis’ methods really help me with my dog. I didn’t need an aversion collar but his quick snap of the leash technique allowed me to get her pulling under control. This was after working with a local positive trainer and using Zak’s book. My first dog was a joy and training her was a breeze but my current dog is a stray someone abandoned on my property. She has been exasperating and difficult. I was understanding of some of her unruliness because I don’t know her life but because I’m older I couldn’t chance being pulled to the ground and injured. Training should be tailored to the needs of the dog as well as the owner.
@Bruno_LEsperance
3 жыл бұрын
@@sammijo125 I completely agree with you. There is no point coming up with the perfect training plan if it will be impossible for the owner to implement it, because of physical limitations but also often because of available time. A good trainer is able to come up with a plan that would work for everyone involved. Best of luck.
@patmunro3531
3 жыл бұрын
Very well done!! I am NOT a professional dog trainer, Just had a LOT of dogs of ALL temperamental types. Qualified Crufts obedience in the 70's. Now it's SO much "science". To keep this short I live on a remote Scottish island, Sheep are the most numerous mammals here, and they are NOT fenced. Farmers can shoot loose dogs pretty much anywhere [even in your garden [mine], I had to train my high drive Police Bred GSD not to chase ANYTHING. The ecollar is the answer. BUT it is SO misunderstood. MY EXPERIENCE, Use on myself, like a fly irritating, not in the slightest, painful, going up in levels, the fly got bigger, its legs became painful at level 50, it has 100 levels. My dog reacted the SAME way on the level she could actually feel 6. I then gave roast chicken treat for the next 3 "stims", on stim 4 I thought I'd created another positive marker. The next day I KNEW I had. The remote [in your hand], gives a barely audible "click" when you press the shock button. So I'm, stimming when she's distracted, and she's now running towards me for reward. Did it 3 times before I noticed I HADN'T TURNED THE REMOTE ON!! When I did same response. She is now 2 years old. We go long FREE walks on the mountain. I can recall her from a hare bolting from hiding 2 feet from her nose, at the speed of light faster than I can push the button!! She HAS received painful shocks, given to her by one of the "experienced" ecollar trainers used in the Lincoln Study, that was absolutely flawed. Do NOT sell yourself short, you know more dog psychology than any scientist who never lived with a dog. Ponder this. My last GSD, pet bred, had an obsession. eating LIVE bees. Getting stung in the mouth. How can any human know what another species might like or dislike? To live as a wolf, in a pack involves aversive interactions constantly, but the bond remains. The "pet" GSD required NO training that I can remember, though I am the leader and set boundaries. I also believe in LIMA [least Intrusive Minimally Aversive] training. I always carry treats. Thank You
@stephaniejunca1641
3 жыл бұрын
This is interesting to me because I have two dogs. One dog is a Shiba who is very calm and easily adapted to walking on a leash and just generally listens. Probably the easiest dog I have ever had. We have only done positive reinforcement traininv with him. He is so well-mannered. Our other dog is the opposite. She is a Texas Heeler so she has a ton of energy and is pretty crazy at times. We took her into positive reinforcement training classes while she was a puppy for months. And even though she learned a lot of fun tricks and things... it unfortunately did nothing to improve her behavioral problems. We had to resort to the more "aversive" training methods in order to get her to cooperate. She still pulls on the leash at times and growls at children (she hates kids for some reason) but she will now do check-ins with us before going buckwild barking at a dog across the street... unfortunately I believe that there are some dogs that require some "harsher" methods of training in order to learn from right and wrong. I would like to think that only positive reinforcement training works but in my experience it does not.
@Miarije
3 жыл бұрын
Playing devil's advocate here - I think this is the main reason people are still 'defending' harsh training methods. "Some dogs just need aversive training methods because I tried positive reinforcement and it didn't work". But realistically, how do we know this is the dog's 'fault'? From a scientific point of view, there are two main parameters here (obviously more as well): the dog and the trainer. Logically, when the trainer tries something and it doesn't work they tend to conclude that "this doesn't work on this dog". But there's another option: what if the trainer wasn't doing it right? What if the trainer didn't stick with it long enough (a lot of people expect results quickly while in reality it can take weeks or months - including several setbacks which are completely normal)? What if the trainer wasn't consistent? What if the trainer didn't know about some positive reinforcement techniques that could have worked? A lot of these are very reasonable scenarios considering most dog owners are not professional dog trainers (and can't be expected to be one). It can result in positive reinforcement working fine on a naturally 'easier' dog, while getting in trouble with a more 'difficult' dog (like high energy dogs). Point is, these anecdotal experiences that people usually share are simply not reliable from a scientific point of view, UNLESS they describe how several professional, experienced positive reinforcement trainers (because even within positive reinforcement people can have different methods) have worked with the dog for extended periods of time (considering that some things simply require a lot of time) and none of them were able to make any progress with the dog at all. If even one of them IS able to make some progress, even if it takes weeks, then clearly positive reinforcement does work on the dog. Maybe just not as well as some (or most) other dogs resulting in it taking a bit longer and the trainer having to be experienced, but it works. Which still makes it the least aversive method that works! (though with my somewhat extreme example, might be more difficult to actually realize, but that's not the point here) I see these stories a lot in comments ("I tried it and it didn't work on this dog so we had to be more aversive"), so I figured for once I'd throw in my two cents and show how I come to a different possible conclusion :) I'm not an expert so don't take this as a "you're wrong and here's why"- just wanted to share another perspective to think about!
@miracinonyx265
3 жыл бұрын
@@Miarije Wow! Thanks for taking the time to post such a detailed, thoughtful reply. I found it both informative and useful
@Miarije
3 жыл бұрын
@@miracinonyx265 thank you, I'm glad you think so!
@boroughbredbrooklyn6036
3 жыл бұрын
@@Miarije spot on imo
@stephaniejunca1641
3 жыл бұрын
@@Miarije thanks for the response. I would somewhat agree with you. Regular dog people, like myself and the majority who have puppers in their lives, are not professional trainers. I do my best with the resources I have to train and care for my pets which I do love as if they were my children because well they are. My husband and I are not having kids and have decided to rescue pets instead. We have the Shiba who was a puppy mill daddy who like I mentioned in my original comment has been the easiest dog I have ever had. He has his typical stubborn Shiba moments but he responds to pets and treats and also lots of patience when he doesn't want to budge when we're walking and he does't want to come home haha. And then our Aussie mix or Texas Heeler whatever you want to call her is still a juvenile delinquent at 13 months of age. She gets aggressive towards children and has snapped at my nephews even after we have tried to expose her with distractions and positive reinforcement. These young nephews are handsy and just like her are also juvenile delinquents haha. Sure, this is not her fault at all, but I don't see harm in having her wear a muzzle when in their presence or be trained with an e-collar so she knows when barking and growling and snapping is not ok. Again, we do the best we can with the resources we have just like most pup-parents. And just like most parents of human children, they do the best they can for the child they have. Like you mentioned yourself, these are anecdotal comments by random people on the internet and though my opinion may be incorrect in some people's eyes it's what has worked for us. My dog still is happy to see me every morning or when I have left the room for two minutes... because she is just that energetic and silly and loving. But, her safety and the safety of my family is of top priority and again this is what has worked for us. It may not be completely scientific because it's opinion based but it is what it is in our lives and quite honestly the lives of many pup-parents. I remember growing up in the late 80s - early 90s choke chains and prong collars were the norm. We had German Shepherds growing up so my dad used similar training techniques to what the police used. Very similar to Cesar Milan's ideologies of master and serving dog, superior and inferior. While I do not agree with this ideology at all, at that time there were claims to show that it worked. But, times change as we see Zak talk about in this video. I am sure in a few years from now there will be more studies and info out there for people like you and me to learn from and try with our dogs. Life is always changing and from what I learn with my current pups, I will carry forward with my future pups with slight tweaks according to their needs because every dog is different.
@TundraEmpress
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you thank you THANK YOU for the discussion and all the linked resources!
@lisastarshine2541
3 жыл бұрын
Their statement gave me chills what an amazing breakthrough and such a strong statement. I hope everyone starts to implement this ASAP and spread the word and continue to move forward to real positive training. There are also so many out there that are not really actually positive but say that they are. I think it is so important that veterinarians need to do better at telling every dog owner that they need absolutely need to have a trainer. It's not just about training which to most humans means I want my dog to listen when it's convenient for me. It's so much more than that and even canine enrichment and even for cats but that's a whole another topic. Also being able to respect our pets and work on their pace not expecting them to just come into our lives and be able to blend in automatically. Veterinarians need to do better for sure ASAP. Thank you so much for this video you guys reach so many people and it's so important thank you so much.
@darkweaver562
3 жыл бұрын
This is the Swedish method, prong collars are illegal here, slip leads are ONLY for show dogs, and e-collars are also illegal. Also you can have a cage but it can not have a door on it, it’s illegal to cage your dog as well.
@applehead_mjinnocent3826
3 жыл бұрын
Wow. I live in Norway, and I did not know that...
@gladevovser
3 жыл бұрын
Thats great news! And something several trainers have been practicing for many years. 😊 Look more towards Skandinavien trainers and We have been training dogs, both with normal behavior and behavior problems in ways that dont use aversive methods.
@marcfrangiosa7657
3 жыл бұрын
love you guys thank you for being honest and thinking the way you do.
@ohdeer-sabrina8132
3 жыл бұрын
I think the real problem is that while aversive methods look like they work quicker, they're less reliable, and they can also create other problems on the long run. You could argue that yeah, if you use a shock collar on your dog every time they try to run outside without permission, they'll stop doing it quicker than with positive reinforcement. But at the same time, all that you're teaching is that the dog can't do it in front of you, which only leads to them looking for ways to do it while you're not around, and turns you into someone that your dog fears, which messes up your relationship and makes other training less effective. Another thing that ends up happening is that the dog stops trusting you, or they might not understand why they're being punished, which can lead to them fearing going outside all together because in their mind trying to go out = being shocked. This can lend to them lashing out on you when you try to take them outside, and turning aggressive out of fear of the punishment. Using adversive methods is a quick fix that ends up leading to way bigger problems if done by someone who doesn't understand how dogs work. If you don't find out why your dog is doing something or isn't doing what you are asking you'll never progress. You can't have a solution if you don't know what the problem is.
@ihelpdogs
3 жыл бұрын
Also don't forget that shocking your dog every time they try to run outside only works if the dog is wearing the shock collar 24/7 which should never be the case. Ideally they should never wear a shock collar PERIOD but I know that's unrealistic as far too many "trainers" rely on them.
@janhankins911
3 жыл бұрын
What you've said is very true. Also, you'll find that when you remove the aversive method (you are caught without your pinch collar, choke collar, or electric collar), you'll lose all progress you've made. The dog will "behave" ONLY when wearing the object of punishment. Frankly, if I'm going to err on one side or the other, I'd rather my dogs behave only for a treat than my dogs behave only to avoid being hurt. Positive methods may take a bit longer AND it's more difficult to use positive methods (you have to come up with behavior you'd rather the dog do instead of the problem behavior, you have to manage the environment, you have to come up with a whole training plan and be willing to modify it at any time if you find it isn't working, etc). But positive methods are so preferable in the long run.
@timothyomalley1851
3 жыл бұрын
@Oh Deer-Sabrina if you trained your dog to not walk out the door with positive reinforcement and you had to leave and you accidentally left the door open your dog wouldn’t leave?
@timothyomalley1851
3 жыл бұрын
@Jan Hankins what if I showed you a video of my dog listening when the tools are off . What is your answer for that ?
@seanoconnorshalloffamedogt5910
2 жыл бұрын
So, I had the unique opportunity of working at a daycare where I would be alone in a room with up to 40 plus dogs and have to break up up to 3 fights a day. Due to the freedom I had, I experimented on a variety of methods ranging from the Cesar Milan styled aversive heavy to the Zak George positive, as well as Joel Beckman and the like in between. The way you put it, about 28 mins into the video is a perfect description of my experience. 1) pos re IS harder, which is why I was so against using as much of it as I could and thus, as you said, the notion of pos re was NOT intuitive until, after 7 months of experimentation, it was both blatantly intuitive and obvious . Thank you for this video
@corgiowner436
3 жыл бұрын
My thoughts on this are mixed. It reads a lot like the medical articles on dealing with difficult patients. “if you’re just perfect and can understand the patient’s point of view then you’ll be able to deal with the situation in a compassionate way.” After you’re 100th attempt to redirect bad Behaviour and you’re looking at a destroyed expensive piece of furniture it’s trying for even the most patient of souls.
@mansionofcardboard
3 жыл бұрын
I even think of emergency management with dog aggression, etc.
@janhankins911
3 жыл бұрын
One word. MANAGEMENT. And if you've tried 100 times to redirect a behavior, that should be your clue that it isn't working. You're not offering the dog something "better" than what you're trying to re-direct him from. Your "reinforcer" is not high-value enough. If something doesn't work, a good trainer will revisit his or her training plan and look at it objectively from all perspective and try to decide why it isn't working. Am I using a powerful enough reinforcer? Did I break down the steps into step that are small enough that the dog can easily understand and master them? Did I skip or leave out steps? Am I managing the environment as best I can? In college, I took a FORTRAN class. FORTRAN is a computer programming language (and yes, I'm probably aging myself admitting I used FORTRAN, which is probably studied only in history books now). It was frustrating. You couldn't tell the computer ANYTHING that was "obvious" to you. It wasn't "obvious" to the computer. You had to include the most basic of instructions. It was all too easy to leave out some "minor" detail that was obvious to you and your program would "crash". Dog training is a lot like programming a computer. What may be "obvious" to you isn't obvious to the dog. What may seem like a "small step" to you may be a huge leap for the dog, and one the dog simply can't "put together" and take. If what you're doing isn't working, you've probably made an error somewhere. Just like if my computer program crashed, it wasn't because the computer was stupid (which computers really are) or temperamental. It was because I'd made a mistake in the way I programmed it.
@corgiowner436
3 жыл бұрын
@@janhankins911 didn’t say it was repeating the same mistake 100 times. Managing the environment can be very difficult when it requires constant attention and the situation I’m referring too was peeing on a piece of furniture which ruined the finish in the 30 seconds it took me to get off the phone and follow him into a room I’d been working to keep him out of. And no it couldn’t be blocked off.
@corgiowner436
3 жыл бұрын
Think George and his ball obsession.
@miracinonyx265
3 жыл бұрын
@@janhankins911 This is SUCH a useful analogy to me!!! (And yes, I too had to learn FORTRAN back in the day. Spent a whole summer on it, full time as part of my fellowship working for a professor, and that same fall the university switched to CMS. Let’s not discuss it🙄)
@mohanzhao2283
3 жыл бұрын
I just wanna let ppl know if you are very new to dog training and positive reinforcement doesn’t seem like it’s working for some certain things, that’s means either u need to be more patient or you need a trainer to help you break down and analyze your dog’s behavior then teach you how to do it. Dogs are super complicated creatures every dog is different, and positive reinforcement isn’t as easy as simply reward. Zak’s videos taught my so much he basically changed my life and set my dog for a very good start, but at some point my dog had his own little problems that I can’t fix so I got a trainer, from the trainer I realized that there is so much more other than what was shown in the videos, we as owners need to learns more details based on our own dog. Anyways positive reinforcement does work, if not you need patience and an actual trainer who can help u understand ur dog
@ag-dn1vl
3 жыл бұрын
i have only used an aversive training method was on my german shepherd who had a really bad case of biting (i think it was partially puppy biting).he would lunge at anyone who he didn’t know that tried to sit down next to him. i had an e collar on him (not a shock collar, the collar that i got would vibrate) when guests came over. if he showed signs of aggression i’d try to use sound diversion, and if he focused on me i’d give him a treat. if he made the lunge to bite, i’d yelp as he bit to try to make him release, but if he didn’t within a very short amount of time i’d make the collar vibrate to make him release, then i’d bring him in another room and put him in a crate for 15 minutes. i feel as if it was necessary because if he bit a complete stranger on a walk (and i let go of the leash) he’d probably be put down. it didn’t take him too long to catch on as most of the ‘training’ was positive and the only time that i made the collar vibrate on his neck was if he didn’t let go if i made that yelp. any time he wasn’t showing signs of aggression to the guest he’d get a treat for it.
@amanda-cct
3 жыл бұрын
This video is a great refresh on, just like you said, R+ first and asking how we can be more proactive. Like today, I corrected my dog for barking at the window at a bird or squirrel she saw. She totally lost it. I'm not against correcting her in that situation and then rewarding once she's quiet, but I also know that putting her bed next to the window was dumb on my part and I could've crated her for down time instead so she wasn't being triggered in the first place! @dogliason forever the best trainer for anxious dogs.
@twimper
3 жыл бұрын
Something none of the studies seems to address is the stress on the handler. I would get very stressed using a shock collar on my dog! but positive reinforcement YES! love it I get to make my dog happy and play with them!
@dawnplonski6940
2 жыл бұрын
This was very interesting to listen to. Thanks guys!! Just a thought…I would love to see grooming videos. My girl is so nervous and at the groomer. I stay with her and attempt to get her focus on me and reward for good behavior, but we still struggle. This would be so very helpful!!!
@suehathaway6372
3 жыл бұрын
Hello, we have a almost 2 year old 70# Aussiedoodle. He's not treat motivated. We have him in homeschool with training for a service dog for me because of a traumatic injury to my hip and sciatic nerve injury. Anyway, our trainer recommended the electric collar, we were against it a first. He would bolt out the front door and run across the street to see a neighbor dog. He wouldn't listen to pretty much anything we'd try. The trainer is awesome so we decided to give it a try. We've never used anything but the sound on the collar to get his attention. He's doing so good with his training and now can walk to the car in a heel walk. I truly never thought he'd be able to do anything like this. Our puppy is wonderful now and listens to my commands. I'm not sure how long he would be in training if we hadn't tried the collar.
@LLewis-vu9qf
3 жыл бұрын
Sue -- I'm very curious. There are a couple trainers I follow who recommend use of an e-collar and I have read random comments from people such as yourself who use e-collars. My question to you is: once trained to it does your dog continue good behaviour without the e-collar on?
@suehathaway6372
3 жыл бұрын
@@LLewis-vu9qf yes! The trainer has only used it once after the first month. I didn't want to use it at all. Ever. But if I'm out with him by myself it's good to know that I can press the sound button to get his attention. I used it once when he started to pull me across the street after a raven. I told him leave it and ouch and when that didn't work I hit the sound button. He stopped right away and looked at me and stopped pulling. The one we use was a couple hundred dollars, well worth it in my opinion.
@JunieBJones-tn4yi
3 жыл бұрын
@@LLewis-vu9qf No. Not necessarily. Most dogs get collar wise. Which is why over-reliance on the collar at the expense of actual training will screw you over eventually. But if you're only using it in very specific situations, like for safety when you're off-leash hiking, it doesn't matter
@LLewis-vu9qf
3 жыл бұрын
@@JunieBJones-tn4yi -- thank you for the explanation. I've never actually used an e-collar but I know that my pup knows when he has his harness on, and he's less likely to run off. I figured using an e-collar would produce similar behavior; once the collar was removed, obedience might suffer. But if it works so that a dog can be off leash, I can understand the popularity of the e-collar.
@LLewis-vu9qf
3 жыл бұрын
@@suehathaway6372 -- I can see why an e-collar would be a desirable tool. I use a long line (50 ft.) and my dog is really good with his recall on leash. I likely will leave well enough alone. ☺️
@carolynvines2027
3 жыл бұрын
Seems to me that this study is validating your training methods; and I'm very happy to see this. I love that the scientific community is finally acknowledging that dogs are sentient beings! I believe mutual respect is the best way to live with a dog, the animal kingdom in general, including human to human.
@jeffogonowski2232
3 жыл бұрын
So what about “leave it” commands and guiding a dog back during fetch? They’re not physically adverse but it makes me wonder abut the practicality and safety of the dog.
@breejustine
3 жыл бұрын
Great question! Zak and I have been thinking about that a lot. I’m sure he will continue to address these questions in future training videos!
@karstentopp
3 жыл бұрын
Leave it does not have to be aversive. I deny access to a treat with "Leave it!" and simultaneously give a treat with the other hand. So the dog learns with positive reinforcement that letting one thing go will give her an alternative treat.
@PamelaDalmatian
3 жыл бұрын
We would hold a dog back from running in front of a car in the same manner we would ask a dog to leave something they should not have. I think there is a difference between preventative type of treatment versus what they are calling aversive. Stopping a dog from accessing a treat by covering it with your hand, or holding the leash so they can’t get further away, are not aversive. Not in my eyes. And on that note, holding back on a collar of any sort is also different than holding back on a harness. I hate collars in respect to leashing a dog, as it just chokes them. And honestly the dog doesn’t seem to care much, so is just willingly hurting themselves.
@Waqqas111
3 жыл бұрын
I wish Zak George would do a series with a more reactive dog
@michaelb5392
3 жыл бұрын
Agreed give me dog on deaths door in a shelter with aggression issue and just train him positive lets see how that goes
@Yoshi_No.1
3 жыл бұрын
he doesn't take those dogs because, he knows force free training won't work. training moira and george kind of dogs is a walk in the park. he won't even be able to get an aggressive dog to wear a collar.
@Waqqas111
3 жыл бұрын
@@Yoshi_No.1 but avsab claims that all behavior correction can be done force free
@zaccy
3 жыл бұрын
Zac could absolutely do it but he wont be succeeding with just positive reinforcement.
@CatHeartHorses
3 жыл бұрын
I’m curious to know if any of the studies address how quickly a method works. I’ve heard aversive methods provide “instant fixes.” Now I don’t believe this is completely correct but I have seen positive reinforcement take more time. And if you’re in a situation with an aggressive dog with kids in the house or what have you, you’d want that addressed more quickly even if the dog was caused a little more stress. Also none of these studies seem to address the stress caused by the fear of fear reactive dogs. So if I could teach a dog to be less afraid in a week with aversives, in the long run, wouldn’t that be less stressful than taking a month to teach them using positive methods? I’m not a trainer. These are just some things I’m interested in. How many of these dogs in the study were actual rescues with dangerous behaviors? We want to prevent animals from going into shelters and being euthanized but positive reinforcement can take longer and many normal families can’t implement it completely to see results. There’s just a lot of real world factors missing I think.
@ohdeer-sabrina8132
3 жыл бұрын
I think the real problem is that while aversive methods work quicker, they're less reliable, and they can also create other problems on the long run. You could argue that yeah, if you use a shock collar on your dog every time they try to run outside without permission, they'll stop doing it quicker than with positive reinforcement. But at the same time, all that you're teaching is that the dog can't do it in front of you, which only leads to them looking for ways to do it while you're not around, and turns you into someone that your dog fears, which messes up your relationship and makes other training less effective. Another thing that ends up happening is that the dog stops trusting you, or they might not understand why they're being punished, which can lead to them fearing going outside all together because in their mind trying to go out = being shocked. This can lend to them lashing out on you when you try to take them outside, and turning aggressive out of fear of the punishment.
@JenKirby
3 жыл бұрын
I don’t believe that aversive training would stop fear!
@cbcdesign001
3 жыл бұрын
How on earth can you possibly "teach" a dog to be less afraid using discomfort or pain? Sorry but that's just not rational. If you want to stop a dog being afraid of something you have to show them that the thing they are afraid of is actually not something they need to be afraid of.
@christianbjerlvkarlsen6148
3 жыл бұрын
@@cbcdesign001 Totally agree. You can't make a dog less afraid by hurting them in any way. They may stop doing an unwanted behaviour, but they won't stop being afraid/fearful of something. They just know they are not allowed to show their fear. Which is stressful for them. Imagine being afraid of something, and someone is screaming in your face, or hitting you on the head, would you be more or less afraid afterwards?
@Kokuen17
3 жыл бұрын
Using pain and fear to stop a fear reactivity issue ... what? It may work fast but as someone has said they just won't show that behaviour and are still feeling fear over the same thing. I'd be extremely concerned if you wanted to use this "quick fix" for reactivity in the house with a child too!!! If the dog was growling at the child for approaching (say fear/pain of having their fur pulled), if every time said dog is corrected when the child approaches all that will happen is the child approaching = more stress, pain and fear = more likely to react even more severely (ie bite) if the dog was only growling before.
@Stumblingthroughlife
3 жыл бұрын
The science clearly shows positive reinforcement is least likely to cause long term negative effects that aversive might cause. The recommendation is about causing the least harm to the animals you are training.
@lisapeer5310
3 жыл бұрын
I love this stance by AVSAB. I am anguished at some people in the dog world. I got attacked on line and actually kicked out of my fb breed group for posting and defending their positive reinforcement stance. As Bob Baily says, Its not the animals that cause the trouble. sigh....
@lisat9707
2 жыл бұрын
Umm.... You need to rewatch this video.
@kalisfinest805
3 жыл бұрын
Im glad we are shifting away from such aversive training! Its a good idea. Positive reinforcements seem like a better bonding experience with your pets.
@raychumon
3 жыл бұрын
To be honest, I don't think pulling on the leash a little is equivalent to choke chains and electric collars. I think being against aversive training methods like the latter doesn't necessarily outlaw the former.
@Mwyse414
3 жыл бұрын
It all depends how you use it. E collars especially can be much more gentle and easy on the dog then a flat collar
@JessicaNiles
2 жыл бұрын
I'm surprised to hear you list Cesar Milan... do you endorse his methods?
@sebringiton
3 жыл бұрын
I love the idea of using your dogs meal as treats during training, but how often can you do that? Can you do it too often? That when give your dog a straight meal they think it is jackpot time?
@thenae8572
2 жыл бұрын
I love that you guys actually dug into the research used, I think that's fantastic. The new position paper just seems like insanity coming from a place of good intentions, to say that aversive measures should *never* be used... It's not going to lead to more dogs being helped in the long run. Most trainers use aversive measures as a last resort, positive reinforcement is usually the first priority. In difficult cases where positive training methods have been exhausted, where are we left? Giving up on those dogs, when more intense methods (not cruel methods, but careful discipline) could get that dog to the point of being able to be a regular dog who can enjoy other dogs and people? What's most important is that as many dogs as possible are able to go out into the world safely... If making the dog temporarily uncomfortable (not harmed, just a bit of displeasure - ie part of life in this world) allows them to really live their life afterwards, anyone who would instead give up doesn't love that dog. A dog that's being corrected by another dog in their pack might feel a moment of stress too. There's nothing inherently wrong with feeling a bit of stress in life, especially if the result is a much less stressful life after it's over.
@pam5670
3 жыл бұрын
Positive reinforcement works for her but I add other things to. Even time out. I am working with her being around children and can use some help. She is so smart so training her like a child has worked well.
@livingroomsupportgroupnort7299
3 жыл бұрын
Wonderful, wonderful news. I would have never used adversive training anyways, but finally science has caught up empathy.
@fundip43
Жыл бұрын
My issue is that the position statement it doesn’t make a recommendation for increasing the body of knowledge through new study designs suggestions . It does little to recognize the limitations of a goal standard for comparative training designs. It also doesn’t seem well positioned for clinical correction recommendations. I also don’t see a comparison of training to medication for animal quality of life or review of conflicts of interest
@professor2771
3 жыл бұрын
I've read many comments below and listened to so many videos from trainers about "play" biting, but none have I found relating to older dogs and how to stop them. I have an 11 months old Doberman, and he is the sweetest and accepting boy (I've trained him to love all animals and people), but when he gets excited or even if I am affectionate for a period, he thinks that biting is a form of play or affection. He doesn't bite hard, but he doesn't stop when told and sometimes he'll get my finger in the back of his teeth and it doesn't take a lot of pressure to feel like he could crush it. Since he was a puppy, toy replacement never worked, as you and other trainers have shown. I present him with the toy and he just bypasses it and goes for me. I truly thought he'd grow out of it as did my four other Dobermans throughout my life, but he hasn't. The funny thing is, he does it only to me (which I am very happy for). How can I fix this problem without "aversive" methods such as clamping his mouth with your hand and say "NO"!?
@NadieQueti
3 жыл бұрын
I am not a trainer but my dog did that too and toy replacement only worked a few times. What I did to stop it is getting up and ignoring her every time she started biting. When she calmed down I would give her more affection and play with her toys and repeat the process. This is negative reinforcement, which is not the same as punishment. Now she doesn't bite me at all but she does playbite other people that rough house with her or don't take the time to teach her that they are not to be bitten. Hope to find that useful!
@professor2771
3 жыл бұрын
@@NadieQueti Hi. Thank you. Been there, done that. Every time he did/does this, I get up, leave the room for a few seconds, up to minutes, then return to show I'm not upset, and within seconds it starts up again. I would love a non-aversive method, but the "humane" method just isn't getting through to him. All my other Dobies I could rough house with and they'd put their mouths on me, and even hold me, but when I said stop, they stopped, and mostly, even when they held me, I almost couldn't feel their teeth but rather slight pressure.
@Yoshi_No.1
3 жыл бұрын
looking forward to the next reality dog training:-) moira and george were food motivated and prey driven.you know that, motivated dogs are trainable. hope you do a series with a dog that has handler aggression .those are the dogs that are being put down. thank you.
@sarahcarrier5118
3 жыл бұрын
This was a very interesting listen. So many points.
@andrewnorine699
3 жыл бұрын
What do you recommend for long distance recall in a hunting environment with long distances?
@guitarman3001
3 жыл бұрын
A loud whistle.
@ruthpine-apple9860
3 жыл бұрын
Start off close and only work up to distance gradually when the dog is reliable. I hunt with my spaniels over great distances without the use of any aversive methods, it can be done with patience. Edit- and a whistle for recall and stop/directions, as someone else said!
@staceystephens4754
3 жыл бұрын
I am soo happy that this came out ! I have felt this way & very adamant that I was NOT going to use this type of correction. I have cycled through so much money & trainers bc of it- I know it may be slower results but I grew up in a spare the rod & spoil the child background - I am not a vision of perfect mental health- I don’t want that for any dog that I have /shrug
@spiritualjoy721
3 жыл бұрын
I am not a professional trainer-merely a dog owner who tries to teach her pets to behave properly. These new AVSAB guidelines, briefly stated, match my teaching perspective and methodology. I have never agreed with physical punishments and I refused to follow a professional trainer’s techniques-squirt bottle and the collars you mentioned-in training my pet. My method requires much patience, time and repetition but my furry babies are worth it. BTW, I have six dogs-three of which are APBTs.
@jbsparkssp2821
3 жыл бұрын
No one mentioned physical punishment. Physical prompts are way different.
@spiritualjoy721
3 жыл бұрын
@@jbsparkssp2821 You are correct-physical punishment was not mentioned in Zak’s comments, and I did not intend to infer that he mentioned it. I only meant that I personally do not use that method. I apologize if my comments implied otherwise. Good catch.
@NorseButterfly
3 жыл бұрын
I used an e-collar on my lab to try to "train" the barking to a minimum. I only used the sound mode as I didn't like the way the other two options felt when I tried them on myself. He responded as I predicted, at first, he got off the door, sat, spun in a circle, sat again, then barked at the door. I beeped the collar. He looked at me, puzzled. When nobody came to the door, he laid down. This went on like this until someone actually came to the door. He then ignored the beeping of the collar, and continued to ignore it from that day on. The only way I can get him to stop barking at the door, is to physically stand at the door, have him sit, then wait. Now, I just have to train him to stay inside the door when someone comes in, and to not try to be the center of attention for the first 5 minutes.
@Nea-van-R.
3 жыл бұрын
You should look up Susan Garrett's 'Hot zone'! It's basically a game where you teach your dog that a dog bed/mat/.. is a Target for their whole body, and that it's awesome to (first touch it, then be/at the end) stay there no matter what. Every dog i tought it like that loved it, bc it's a fun little game and not that formal and strickt 'place-command', but with the same result at the end.
@somniatic
3 жыл бұрын
i'm thankful to channels like this one, McCann and Victoria Stilwell's channel. i have come to realize that i use those negatives way too much, and my poor animals are afraid of me and do things because i'm upset. recently i had a bit of a breakdown and my dogs would come to me when i would cry profusely. they still do it, which makes me realize i need to work on better methods than just yelling "no" or other things that just don't allow the dogs to trust me to do the right thing otherwise.
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