Seeing a lot of comments already so let's talk about it. This discussion actually centers around the amount of highly skilled offensive players there are today. Is the modern NBA offense SO good that we've gotten to a point where you don't need a top tier defense to win it all?
@lukebaumgartner6763
9 ай бұрын
Over the past decade or so, the main trends of a championship team that I’ve recognized is: 1. A top 10 player in the nba 2. Chemistry/culutre 3. Health 4. Veteran presence 5. Player specialists/players with specific roles that help maximize production
@dras-pv8qv
9 ай бұрын
You might call it good offense, but anyone who watches FIBA knows it's a mirage. Every European player has made a remark about how much easier it is to score in the nba. So is the modern offense really THAT good, or is it just running amok thanks to modern officiating
@kembryembry3394
9 ай бұрын
There are currently 52 players avg over 20 ppg. In 2002 there were only 6 players avg over 25! It has nothing to do with talent as 2002’s elite class was stellar. It’s the rules, increase in pace & 3 point shooting emphasis.
@robertbloom4424
9 ай бұрын
@@lukebaumgartner6763 The last few years, we've had 4-5 legit contenders when in many past seasons, it was 1-3. I like your list, but I'd change the order and expand upon an item: 1. Health. The title winner has almost always been the healthiest of the legit contenders. 2. A top 10 player. 3. Chemistry / culture (the most talent-stacked team rarely wins the chip) 4. Players with specific dynamic roles / defensive matchups (being able to match up well seems to matter more than simply being an overall great defense) 5. Veteran presence
@kembryembry3394
9 ай бұрын
Thank you!!! The best 2 players in the league aren’t from America & aren’t athletic in the least bit. Essentially. Destroying these guys with IQ & skill. When I watch joker & doncic it’s seeing what a player from 10-20 years ago would do to the modern league. USA just came in 4th with the FIBA rules .
@kshzk
9 ай бұрын
I love these conversations on this channel 100 times more than the stupid debates about who is the GOAT on TV. Great insight!
@dejan.zivkovic.psiholog
9 ай бұрын
It's smart conversation not click biting show...
@kembryembry3394
9 ай бұрын
You can’t have an honest high level debate about the NBA with guys who receive checks from Espn & other corporate entities. They are supposed to say the current product is the best ever!! Jeff Van Gundy & Marc Jackson got let go after 15+ years for being too honest about the current NBA
@darrius751
9 ай бұрын
I'm all here for it over ESPN NBA talking points
@harley6314
9 ай бұрын
I agree.. oh by the way it’s Jordan😅
@DarthPicarat
9 ай бұрын
It's Jordan...
@DrewEdmonson
9 ай бұрын
I’ve always felt that, among the top offensive teams, the one with the most competent defense will come out on top. The same is true in football. But elite offense is a prerequisite that enters you into the conversation.
@Geep1778
9 ай бұрын
True and I think that’s why you need 1 of those athletic freaks that are all so unusually quick footed, and longer than the typical player playing their position to really make a difference on defense these days. For example Giannis, JJJ, Draymond the younger version, Chet, or even a Shai. SGA being 6’6 w long arms and an excellent handle is such an advantage on any guard matching up w him that’s shorter than him. It’s that length and athleticism that you really need to stop the kind of athletes in today’s league on any kind of consistent basis. Especially in the playoffs! You can only beat that kind of attribute so many times as a shorter or less explosive player. And it may not affect a player for 47 minutes but in that last minute when everyone’s tired is when it helps or hurts you the most depending on what side of the Ball your on. I know it’s always been like this in the league, but it seems like nowadays where there’s a lot more of these genetic lottery body types rise to the top.
@Geep1778
9 ай бұрын
Aaron Gordon gives Denver a huge advantage over almost every team down low right under the basket, because most players playing his position aren’t as quick or athletic as he is. Not to mention the strength he has. Michael Porter Jr being 6’9 allows him to shoot over almost any small forward, trying to stop it. It’s these little advantages along the margins that really help build a winning team in today’s league. You can’t beat it unless you have the size to match up yourself.
@JimBrave-ri1oc
9 ай бұрын
There are usually only about 2 or 3 teams that are both Defense and Offense in the top 10. Those teams area always in the Finals or Conference Finals.
@MeiA-h9r
9 ай бұрын
As a Heat fan, that’s the dichotomy of the Miami Heat in their past trips to the finals Great defense come playoff time but not enough points offensively which is a prerequisite to win playoff games
@MrRumcajs1000
9 ай бұрын
This sounds good on paper but in reality there is a bias for result oriented thinking here. How do we define a good enough offense? I'd say that Lakers had good enough offense with better defense and still lost 4-0 to the Nuggets last playoffs. Because Nuggets' offense was even better. Now we could say that therefore Lakers' offense wasn't really good enough, but that's where we're just basing it off of the result and saying that basically any team that lost while having better defense didn't have 'good enough' offense. Based off of results we'd have to say that 2020 Lakers and 2021 Bucks had good enough offense even though those weren't offensive-focused teams. But had they lost, we'd say they weren't actually good enough. See how that's result based? The term 'good enough' in this context means as much as 'worse by a smaller margin, than the offense is better by'. So it's the same as saying 'team that wins is the team that is better overall'
@gbogossian
9 ай бұрын
Tim and JJ have great basketball minds and go so well together
@latneyblunk3643
9 ай бұрын
Second this.
@nicolasmenendezsarries6786
9 ай бұрын
They are simplistic and superficial. Never questioning the status quo. Always defending NBA decisions. But yeah, great minds, sure.
@latneyblunk3643
9 ай бұрын
@@nicolasmenendezsarries6786 Well I didn’t come expecting a Timothy Leary diatribe about questioning what a ‘what’ is. I like the perspective of former players who love the game, take it seriously, analyze the current state of the game as professionals who are invested in the success of the league for a number of reasons. I am also invested in this too. Sounds like you have a personal conflict with something that the league office has done, plenty of times I felt that way so word. Don’t let it get in the way of enjoying great content. Are you content with the content? What’s contained in the contents of contempt for the content? Con- meaning together, -tent past participle of -tain, to hold. -tempt past participle of -temn from the Latin temnere “to despise.” Contempt = despise together Content = hold together Contract = draw together Conduct = brought together Stay illuminated light being. NBA, New Babylon Abomination NBA, Negate Biblical Authority NBA, Necromancy Beelzebub Antichrist NBA, Nazi Beast Armageddon
@gotaplanstan
9 ай бұрын
@@nicolasmenendezsarries6786this should be good. Let's hear all your thoughts on the status quo, that for some reason you were willing to mention but not actually talk about
@bjensen
9 ай бұрын
Defenses need to be smart enough and competent enough that there is nothing the other team can easily spam against them for easy buckets. So the most elite defense is not needed, but the defense can't be sloppy or have any specific egregious weaknesses.
@utahj4540
9 ай бұрын
most 2k comment I've ever seen 😂😂
@greyklopstock7155
9 ай бұрын
I did a statistics project on this very concept in 2017. What I found from a simple random sample of conference finalists since the merger, was that around an equal amount of independently great offenses make it far as independently great defenses. And in terms of those that win the championship, there was an almost identical amount of independently great offenses as defenses, with the occasional teams that had both and the even RARER teams with neither rating being in the top 5-10. However, in those cases, they won because of the MATCHUP, or because they had a singularly transcendent player that took over. Examples would be one of the Hakeem rings, Houston had neither a great offense nor defense. However, Hakeem completely dominated his matchup and it won them the championship
@penkima4923
9 ай бұрын
That Houston team would dominate today. They had so many shooters they could rotate them, and an elite big. Later an elite wing. They were 30 years ahead of their time. They used 10 % of their offensive potential, because nobody realized it back then.
@greyklopstock7155
9 ай бұрын
@@penkima4923 oh yeah, it's funny because due to the illegal defense rules and just the way the game was played, spacing and size and stuff punished that rockets team in those days. But now, their positional versatility and shooting would be a MUCH bigger factor in addition to having Hakeem. Cause Hakeem is basically Giannis on defense and, well, Hakeem on offense. It'd honestly be a kinda similar team to the 2014 spurs that ripped the league in half that year
@Edison.m3806
8 ай бұрын
Is it possible to find the standard deviation? And if so, would you mind emailing me it?
@greyklopstock7155
8 ай бұрын
@@Edison.m3806 from a simple random sample of 60 NBA conference finalists since the merger up to 2016 (at the time the current season was 2017) Standard deviations (to the hundredth) Whole sample: Offensive rating: 3.80 Defensive rating: 2.84 Champions within sample: 12 teams Offensive rating: 4.13 Defensive rating: 3.68 Of a 60 team simple random sample, 1/5 went on to win the championship. Which, considering each year has four conference finalists, I feel like that's about as close to representing a fair amount of champions as you could ask for. Overall, 4 champs were a top 5 offense and a defense outside the top 5, 4 were elite defenses and sub top 5 offenses, 2 were elite in both, and 2 were elite in neither. Also, I feel this is some relevant information to add: Obviously, having a negative differential is impossible to win, so every team basically has a higher offensive rating than defensive in the sample. The worst ranking offense to win a championship in my sample was the 04 pistons, with the 18th ranked offense that year. Their defense was the number two defense that year. The worst defense to win the championship in my sample was the 01 Lakers, ironically. Their defense was ranked 21st that year. Their offense was ranked 2nd in the league that year. I can virtually guarantee that the rise in three point shooting the last 7-8 years has skewed the numbers towards offense. However, since the merger, the mean offensive ranking and defensive ranking of my sample of conference finalists only differed by about 0.41, favoring defense. While it may favor defense ever so slightly, that's not really significant enough of a difference to indicate higher ratings in defense correlate to any more success than high rankings in offense. I feel the rankings are almost more important than the actual efficiency metrics, because those account for the change in strategy better. Like, the best offense in the 80s generally doesn't touch the best 2010s offenses. But seeing the relative rankings shows the performance of high powered offense and defense for their respective eras. Because again, a team that would be considered high flying in 1992 would probably look more like defensive specialists now just because teams weren't scoring as much.
@greyklopstock7155
8 ай бұрын
@@penkima4923 I'll also add, that Houston team shot AMAZING from 3 in the playoffs. Chilcut, Cassel, Kenny Smith, Elie, and Horry all shot over 38% from 3. Add in Hakeem getting you 33, 10, 4.5, with nearly 3 blocks a game and 1.2 steals a game, and they could match up with and beat anyone. They had shooters at all positions, could absolutely play against small ball due to Hakeem athleticism and quickness defensively. They could throw 4 elite shooters out there with Hakeem at any given time.
@jmar5127
9 ай бұрын
U have to be a top 10-12 defensive team still. A team like the Lakers though prioritizes defense too much to the point their offense struggles considerably
@dcai2067
9 ай бұрын
This podcast is a real professional one because it gives no BS, no meaningless craps but professional insights with datas.
@penkima4923
9 ай бұрын
JJ talks like he still plays in the league. Complete bias to his era and players. Data is used to support false narratives. Just like the rest of the media.
@basketballbicker8933
9 ай бұрын
The three-point line itself used to be a defender. You could sag behind the three-point line in the past. Now if you’re not up past the three-point line, most guys will hit that three. And dudes are hitting shots three feet behind the three-point line.
@gabesoto9301
9 ай бұрын
As a Pacers fan, we currently have the best offense in the league but our defense is horrendous. Yeah sometimes we beat better teams by lighting them up for 130+ but that’s not sustainable and we’re giving up damn near that much every game too. Defense matters so much and having versatile wing defenders is more important than ever imo.
@panagiotisatmatzidis9972
9 ай бұрын
The nuance here is that in the playoffs the refs call most games differently.
@user-dc7um4pr3f
9 ай бұрын
@@panagiotisatmatzidis9972 You hit the nail on the head. I think the biggest challenge in the NBA is this. The regular season is almost entirely offensive where as the post season defense starts to matter a lot. I think that's the reason Miami has cracked it. A guy like Tyler Herro that's 6'5 and 200 pounds soaking wet can't guard a construction cone but he can give you 20-25 PPG in the regular season in his sleep. He goes from the teams leading scorer to not even in the rotation in the playoffs and they make the finals. You almost need different personnel the regular season is so different than the post season.
@vincentvega9747
9 ай бұрын
@user-dc7um4pr3f he was hurt last year if he didn't fall out of rotation they'd probably win
@BKNPhenom
9 ай бұрын
he was out of the rotation due to injury lol@@user-dc7um4pr3f
@wgnd1614
9 ай бұрын
i thought myles turner was supposed to be a dpoy type of player
@leroyharper4513
9 ай бұрын
It's about timely Defense because nobody is stopping nobody these days more than ever!
@penkima4923
9 ай бұрын
Players today are soft, they have no drive, and nobody shows effort on defense. Timely defense shouldn't be all we can ask. But it's all the current player base has to offer.
@Jeff_2x
9 ай бұрын
Like Tim said offense has become so potent today that it just comes to a point that defense isn’t as impactful in theory so although you do need defense, better offense will always win
@thanrl-yd9ub
9 ай бұрын
Phoenix Suns literally exists
@KlayGoods123
9 ай бұрын
@@thanrl-yd9ub Suns are just bad, they had a top 3 defense and offense 2021-2022 with the runner up DPOY and look what happened
@ike_SYO1592
9 ай бұрын
@@thanrl-yd9ubno bench. Suns are too TOP HEAVY. You need players outside your CORE who are reliable come playoff time
@odonah
9 ай бұрын
@@thanrl-yd9ubbut they aren't even that good at offense
@TheRealMRGG85
9 ай бұрын
Don't let these goobers fool you my guy the game is still ruled by the team who plays the best defense we're in a different era with different rules so more points are scored but the game is still won by the team who plays the best defense. The occasional outlier of this is if you shoot the ball really terrible from three while the other team shoots the ball really well from three you're playing great defense on the perimeter but they are just making tough shots because this rule is also tru in basketball good offense beats good defense.
@dawgpost90
9 ай бұрын
I think "defense wins championships" has always been taken too literally as though offense isn't important. Being able to score is obviously a must have. In my mind, defense does win championships. Almost all teams can score enough to win, but very few have a complimentary defense to go to the next level. Defense, when complimenting good offense, wins.
@fenzelian
9 ай бұрын
Yeah the full saying is “Offense wins games, defense wins championships.” If you aren’t playing offense well you don’t make it to the finals in the first place. It’s about what separates you from other top teams not about what gives you the best chance of winning it all if you’re building from nothing.
@Anthony-ds3om
9 ай бұрын
JJ and Tim...the rules are a huge difference-maker as well. Defense has lost tremendous significance because you can't be physical anymore.
@niksavitskii
9 ай бұрын
I am glad we discovered your channel, very useful for me and my son! thanks
@BuckFieri
9 ай бұрын
Christmas was the first time I watched a game called by JJ and Richard Jefferson and I love it. Wish they’d call more Nuggets games.
@iansmith849
9 ай бұрын
All but 4 championship teams over the last 40+ years have had a top 10 defense (3 of the 4 teams were coming off a title and were top 5 the year before). It might not seem as important but the reality is what separates the champs from other contenders are that they have a top offense + top defense, as opposed to having a top 5 offense and a bottom half defense
@onlyfacts3178
8 ай бұрын
yes and they won because they had a TOP offence not a TOP defence...
@LoptukqrickL11
9 ай бұрын
Since 1980, about half of all championship teams were good (top 10) at both. The other half were really good at EITHER offense or defense. If you are a primarily offensive team and just mediocre or average on defense you will need to be able to lock down on defense during key stretches or during clutch time. Same thing applies to primarily defensive teams. If your focus is defense and you're just okay at offense you will still need a guy or two that can go get a bucket at any time -> think Chauncey Billups or Rip Hamilton from the 04 Pistons.
@gerdanbombales
9 ай бұрын
People see Defense as a total shutdown of an Offense which is incorrect. Defense is you limit the Offensive options of the opponent. Just this era has just already has advanced offence that you cant really stop it. But Defense still wins games its just not seen by the naked eye anymore on how fast pace the game is now.
@penkima4923
9 ай бұрын
"Just this era has just already has advanced offence that you cant really stop it." Take a team from the 90's or 00's, and stopping the Pacers today would be child's play. "how fast pace the game is now." The pace isn't that fast. It's the defense that's complete trash.
@mtarlo215
9 ай бұрын
I’ve wondered this in the past and that is, can a lot of this be traced right back to the Dream Team? That the popularity and dominance of that team both opened the eyes of kids all over the world to the possibilities of basketball and tasked them with a challenge of figuring out how to defeat a more gifted and athletic opponent. It was the Europeans who broke the traditional roles and forced everyone else to take them seriously
@KevinBriggins
9 ай бұрын
I think it's all about the spacing, the 3, and the lack of rim protection. Once the league got rid of illegal defense then it forced teams to create spacing with shooters because defenders have to stay home. It creates such a different style of play and a different game.
@penkima4923
9 ай бұрын
I think it's about players being soft wimps, with zero effort and zero interest in defense.
@greyyb8860
8 ай бұрын
@@penkima4923sitting in the paint all game forces teams to only take mid range shots and 3’s, you can’t just power your way in, you’ll miss 1/4 shots driving to the lane packed
@calebkennedy7460
9 ай бұрын
The way the game has evolved due to Steph’s shooting & big guys like Jokic, Bam, Sabonis being able to handle the ball & pass at a high level makes offense otherworldly now. The reason we’ve been seeing the trend over the past 2-3 years of having so many personal high scoring games (40,50,60 pts) is because the shooting/spacing combined with the versatility you can get from all sizes of players across all positions is really unstoppable if you have the right pieces.
@kembryembry3394
9 ай бұрын
There are currently 52 players avg over 20 ppg. In 2002 there were only 6 players avg over 25! It has nothing to do with talent as 2002’s elite class was stellar. It’s the rules, increase in pace & 3 point shooting emphasis.
@c_rock3512
9 ай бұрын
@@kembryembry3394a lot of it also has to do with the meta/style of play that’s pursued. Back in the early 00s it was the toughest defensive era and offenses were behind the times. Offenses pursued hero ball or big man centered offenses that were effective without zone defenses.
@zombievikinggaming4258
9 ай бұрын
We seen guys like them in the past. Nash was Curry who didn't take as many shots. Jokic has been done before with Walton and Sabonis
@zombievikinggaming4258
9 ай бұрын
@@kembryembry3394Look at the number of shots taken and how many from behind the 3 point line. The efficiency numbers aren't much different.
@super8766
9 ай бұрын
@@kembryembry3394what type of crack are you smoking you can literally pull up film rn…. I just watched it yesterday…of the 03-04 04-05 finals the Kobe and shaq era finals…there’s a lot of skill less people out there
@JustL00kn
9 ай бұрын
2 of the best to listen to when it comes to real hoops talk
@kgtd2160
9 ай бұрын
Defense is mostly effort and discipline imo so it directly relates to team chemistry and maturity. Offense is an absolute must to match the pace and scoring of the current league. So your offense needs to be great in order to even have a chance to win it all. You may be able to stop someone from getting a layup but if you give up a 3 the next possession then all in all it's not that different. Defense is also much much more vulnerable and exploitable since one tiny mistake may lead to a foul or broken scheme, but the ability to make shots never goes away.
@nixynox6359
9 ай бұрын
You need to be top 5-10 in both or elite at one and at least 10-13ish in the other, preferably offense being elite
@no_sourcessle9801
9 ай бұрын
Did anyone watch the way denver defended last yr during their playoff run.. defense is still that important.. getting stops is at a premium now because offenses are so good
@coachmarv7631
9 ай бұрын
In 2013 I did my dissertation on the introduction of the zone defense to the nba and whether it has negated the need for a dominant low post scorer in order to win. Some added findings were fascinating; - theres a correlation to the zone introduction and teams adding more "shot creators". - early offense has become far more potent because anyone who is catching the D Board is pushing it, often because the added 3pt attempts means longer rebounds and so bigs push the ball to guards up the floor, meaning early-offense has more wings/guards making choices to score: higher efficiency - the pinch/high post is far more potent on catches than the low block under these rules. Its better spacing and teams get the ball reversal and swing swing far easier. - low post scoring was just as important as ever, but it came/comes on drives and less from "dominant big post players". I.e low post scoring is just as needed, but stretch bigs, earlier offense and higher P&R action mean the points are spread between the five "positions". Long story short I determined that essentially the NBA is you win because you executed what you were good at better than the oppoenent executed what they were good at (no matter the play style), and defense is pivitol in key spells throughout a game. LOVE the pod and their discussions ❤🏀
@xxflamegamingxx1498
9 ай бұрын
I think defense is a lot of effort and if you have a great offense then putting more effort on defense is a winning formula just from looking at curry and how everyone used to target him where now he’s found more ways to be effective on defense by getting more steals being more physical and gaining weight which all goes back to effort
@SkootAtlYt
9 ай бұрын
I agree...And imo defense doesn't matter in the reg season playoffs are different because of that effort u speak of
@Spartacus4281
9 ай бұрын
Curry is a bad example, he couldn’t make a defensive all nba team if his life depended on it.
@penkima4923
9 ай бұрын
@@Spartacus4281 He possibly could. We don't know. He's not defensive-minded, and has never really tried on defense.
@GArmand715
9 ай бұрын
Steals don’t mean your a good defender btw pump the breaks on that 😂
@seds94
9 ай бұрын
JJ and his uncle just having a normal basketball convo
@hoopdetails
8 ай бұрын
This is possibly one of my most favorite pieces of content I've seen/heard in a HOT MINUTE! nearly every single point that I tell people and have been saying for the last year is finally actually being said by 2 highly educated former NBA players. why the warriors are struggling looks obvious - when they have 2 or 3 non scoring players on the floor, coupled with the fact that the NBA as a whole has never looked more skilled with "random" players or bench players with a Strap shooting at an efficient clip. that the NBA in my opinion WAS NOT more physical, the game was played differently, with the goal being post ups, and mid range jumpers which is what seems to "feel" like it was more physical from memory. but IF you actually went back and OBJECTIVELY watched a random NBA game you'd feel exactly how myself, and JJ feel. it wasn't MORE physical as a whole, there were players that you played tougher and you maybe bumped and banged with, but the same thing happens to Steph or any top scorer in today's game. for me it comes down to skill and analytics. and I really appreciate you putting this content out! THIS IS going to be a widely debated topic, but I think there's a lot of truth, but people who love a certain era honestly just sensationalize how the game felt in that time. GO BACK AND WATCH FOR YOURSELF! Just saying!
@mikesolomon6130
9 ай бұрын
Great conversation!!! In my opinion players today are better conditioned and better at offense. Players from previous generation were less offensively skilled but put in more effort so played more physical hence better defense.
@schuylersavage276
9 ай бұрын
But think about that Arenas take, as far as effort goes. He said he doesn’t know if he could have played today because he never gave a lick of effort and it didn’t matter cuz he could just guard the few guys on the other team who didn’t have any offensive skills. That doesn’t barely exist anymore at all!!!! There have been some really talented offensive scorers who don’t really get to play antmroe or got played out of the league when they could still score simply because of how few non offensive threats are ever on the court antmroe. Even ridiclpus offensive guys like Steph, Trae, etc, get hunted over and over and over and sometimes it costs them games ( sure we can take Stephs name out, but think how hard he has to work jusr so he ISNT a huge liability). Even guys like Brunson, etc, the list goes on of guys who just have to try so hard to be not too pathetic at D so that no matter how good they are on offense, they don’t cost their teams games. I think this is also what makes the celtocs so good. Ya their offense is a whole story itself, but they don’t really have anyone on the court much ever who can be targeted. PP and Hauser have both worked their asses off to actually be pretty dang good defenders. And when it’s Tatum, brown, white, holiday, and KP ? Are you kidding me? Good luck trying to hunt one of them.
@schuylersavage276
9 ай бұрын
I guess my shorter point would be that players from other eras weren’t better at anthrint. Not even close. If you watch like the 1989 finals it’s hilarious To be clear that wasn’t just a random date I picked, I actually went back and watched the 89 finals
@FirstnameLastname-qb2bg
9 ай бұрын
Yes. Stops and rebounds wins 🏆
@josepht5331
9 ай бұрын
I agree 1000% with everything they said. I do think defense is still important to be at least above average if u have aspirations to win a championship. I’m so sick of people not looking at defense and only offense and making rankings solely off offensive play. It’s frustrating because u need defense… This is what frustrates me when we talk about Luka. Yes he’s one of the best offensive players we’ve ever seen. I will not argue or debate against that. But he cannot be placed in the same light as a MJ, Kobe, Lebron because he is a below average defender. He seems to have worked on his conditioning which is great but his lack of athleticism still makes him a below average defensive player (Defensive rating 2023: 113, avg 110). This is why I think once the playoffs starts his light dims down the most and u start to see that liability. I feel like only people who understand the game understand this but most of the internet don’t really understand the game, they just like volume 3s and think that’s all u need to win.
@coreythomas3633
9 ай бұрын
You are SO RIGHT
@MrC556677
8 ай бұрын
The key “Do you have a lineup that can get a stop?”
@baconbisquits101
9 ай бұрын
very good discussion. I thoroughly enjoyed this.
@MarkoRabin
8 ай бұрын
No travel calls for stepback 3s or the 2 steps you get when you get the ball is a huge advantage for the offence
@chrismyco7950
9 ай бұрын
it's funny i remember when the super sonics tried that with Rodman, and he obliterated them on the offensive glass. they had to stop after game 2 of the finals lol.
@SSJRome
9 ай бұрын
I think it’s a bit of both . With offenses so potent and effective in todays NBA if you’re anything close to a top 10 defense the NBA title is yours to loose
@hamadalkaabi2160
9 ай бұрын
That’s what is funny they talk in theory and eye test that offense is more important yet when you look at the west top4 seeds right now and east top 5 ( Milwaukee is an exception) that teams with better defense always win last year where the kings got bounced in the first round dew to lack of defense and the last 4 standing teams that went to conference finals and finals all having great defenses I wonder what this conversation is about when nothing shows in the proof
@kenkooly
9 ай бұрын
Pls keep these high level hoop convos
@BillHaug
9 ай бұрын
This was really informative thanks much
@twizzy585ots
9 ай бұрын
Dope breakdown by Legs n JJ as usual 💯🔥
@henrywc6494
9 ай бұрын
I would take a top 5 defense/top 15 offense rather than top 5 offense/top 15 defense to win a championship. Offenses are improving everywhere but not defenses.
@Geep1778
9 ай бұрын
You need both Elite offense and defense to win a chip! We’ve seen elite offensive teams, and I mean best in the league get dropped in the first round because playoff defense is a totally different animal than regular season defense.
@emreboga
8 ай бұрын
This is a real BB conversation, others are more like reality shows to me.
@juliomartis2906
9 ай бұрын
Man, I dream about the big broadcasting programs, going this way on analysis. On day 🙌
@thisfeatureisstupidxo
9 ай бұрын
Great conversation !
@leoartwell1349
9 ай бұрын
Idk why they seemed like wanted to avoid it, but the rules in all major sports in the last 20 years or so have been to fuel offense. It’s a huge deal.
@detroitsin5250
9 ай бұрын
Don't need a top 5 defense to win a chip, but not being atleast around 10-12 will sink your team. Its about making people work harder and draining em over the course of 7 games not particularly locking someone up.
@AjNerd
9 ай бұрын
i love when these 2 link up
@QGuides
9 ай бұрын
I could listen to these two for hours.
@genaro93611
9 ай бұрын
Basketball players are so much better...its crazy how non superstar teams are winning more games...& more action...lots fun watching games
@dylanmccallum3371
9 ай бұрын
Jimmyhighroller just put out a great video doing a deep dive into the statistics around this exact topic. He really disproves the old head argue that players don't play defense anymore. Players across the league have gotten so potent offensively that there is no place for defensive specialists. To keep up in today's league, a player has to be able to hit a three and drive to the cup on offense, the bare minimum to see any play time if their best skill is defense. I just wonder what the realistic cieling is for offensive efficiency and when we'll reach that.
@nitinchilakamarri3906
9 ай бұрын
This is gold!
@coreyharvardivyleagu
9 ай бұрын
Great conversation. I would say based on the in season tournament finals that elite defenders, namely AD, can have a big impact in a single game. Lakers defense was really good and shut down a highly ranked pacers offensive.
@penkima4923
9 ай бұрын
Not that great conversation. There's more missed shots now, because of the amount of three-balls, and rebounding can alter the game. AD collected 20 rebounds in the IST-finals. The Pacers are currently the best offensive team in the league.
@adamgagnon2552
9 ай бұрын
I love these discussions because these two are not old heads who clearly don't understand modern basketball. I don't have to hear them say things like "Players just don't play defense."
@penkima4923
9 ай бұрын
The defense in average has been complete garbage for years now. It's kinda important to say that, when the topic is defense in the league. Does that fact make you sad, or what's the problem?
@adamgagnon2552
9 ай бұрын
@@penkima4923 it’s the fact it’s simply not true at all. Spacing destroys the ability for defenses to clog the paint and even with that fouls are way down. You just don’t understand modern basketball and what’s happening. That’s cool, just stop watching.
@penkima4923
9 ай бұрын
@@adamgagnon2552 So the problem is age. Perhaps the best defense in history was played around the year 2000. You sound like you weren't old enough to watch basketball. But you can always go back and take a look. The game looked so strange and different, because almost half the players clearly showed some effort on the defense. Watching offensive players was so much more entertaining, because they couldn't just walk by their defender. Not to mention watching back to basket plays, that has disappeared from the league. The softest fouls are called today. There's less fouls today, because offensive players settle for kick-out threes and floaters. The paint is clogged pretty much enough for today's game.
@adamgagnon2552
9 ай бұрын
@@penkima4923 you think I can’t watch older basketball? How they played a ton of ISO, barely moved offensively, and you couldn’t drive because the paint was filled with bigs. Again, you just don’t understand what’s changed in basketball, you see high scoring and think it’s poor defense. You are obviously watching the wrong channel too I think you want to watch first take or something. “Just walk by their defenders” LOL man doesn’t know what a screen is or switching defenders.
@tjkarrjr4935
8 ай бұрын
Willie Green needs to hear this conversation
@Herbalizer28
9 ай бұрын
I'm wondering how offensive rating is being calculated, or rather how it is affected by the lack of physicality and defense in today's game..For example..shots in the 90s were much more contested because there was no technical foul called when a defender landed in the offensive player's landing zone...Sure, today we have better 3pt shooters, but there is less shots contested. Same with layups..there is so much spacing, it's easier to score inside once you beat your guy..
@Jeff_2x
9 ай бұрын
This is why I hate the NBA oldhead/caveman mentality that there is “no defense” in today's NBA when the reality is offenses are so good that it just makes it look like defense isn’t being played.
@kembryembry3394
9 ай бұрын
There are currently 52 players avg over 20 ppg. In 2002 there were only 6 players avg over 25! It has nothing to do with talent as 2002’s elite class was stellar. It’s the rules, increase in pace & 3 point shooting emphasis.
@simba6772
8 ай бұрын
lol bro just say you want to inflate jokic’s numbers. It’s okay we understand you’re a fan. Every nba player talks about how defensively it was tougher back then. Even current players talk about hand checking and physicality. No one is averaging as much while getting beat up, unless you’re a great like MJ.
@MadSUPANOVA
9 ай бұрын
Yes it does. We saw the 2005 to 2007 Bears get to a Superbowl.. with defense of course team has to score to win it all but defense gets team to the end to fight more than offense. A dope defense scores with take aways, steals, can't dribble on them
@sonaffe2248
9 ай бұрын
I feel like, while offense is more important, it's still defence that seems like the seperator between 1st round exits, conference champions and lastly nba champs. Though sometimes the offense is just so great, especially on nights when everyone's jumpshots seem to fall, that you seemingl, can't do nothing about it.
@micahbinns2740
9 ай бұрын
Yeah but the defense expectations are lower, like as long as you are not allowing teams to continue to shoot open 3%
@jordanned3075
9 ай бұрын
I would say it’s more about giving up layups and offensive rebounds. Even curry moss wide open 3s
@gbailey1284
9 ай бұрын
Team defense trumps individual defense now because of what Legs said. With more offensively skilled players on the floor it's imperative that players communicate on switches and screens to body up and get a hand in front of shooters, especially from 3-point land.
@oscarmiramontes8577
9 ай бұрын
It’s crazy cause this is exactly how the Sunday men’s league goes. It’s like watching an NBA game lol
@SecretSocietyTV
9 ай бұрын
championships is a combination of both offense and defense. People only say defense wins them to enourage people to focus on the importance of defense since everybody already focuses on defense. Never seen anybody start playing basketball and not try to be good offensively.
@TheRealMRGG85
9 ай бұрын
offense only wins games is when it comes down to the last shot. The game will typically be won by the team that gets the most stops on defense. Buy basketball is primarily in offensive sport so in the error of explosive offenses the best team is typically the team that can get the most stops because everybody can score.
@Equalshares
9 ай бұрын
They have positional size at every position😅 nice quote JJ
@TrevorEMayo
9 ай бұрын
An alternate title for this video would be "Ben Simmons, born 25 years too late"
@diegocardona735
9 ай бұрын
10:25 nice Thabo Sefolosha call out Tim
@JonReynoldsESQ
9 ай бұрын
Seems we've hit the theoretical balance that Coach Don Nelson and Coach Mike D'Antoni were looking for where defense was overrated. I don't think it'll ever get to that point, but a lot of their theories are starting to make sense.
@foxtaco
9 ай бұрын
I knew immediately Thabo sefalsosha or Roberson was going to be brought up 😅
@easyOG
9 ай бұрын
With the pace, skills, n 3s of today's game, 48min is such a long time to ask players to stay locked in defensively. Any team can wipe away a 20pt lead in like 4 - 8 min. Hence, the 4th quarter is the real game n when teams gotta be able to turn up defensively n still score. Everything else we are seeing are just strategies. U see teams try to win games in the 1st, 2nd, and or 3rd. Depending on how resilience the other team is, we will see big wins or big losses. It's gonna get that polar watch.
@kallyomega8925
9 ай бұрын
High level basketball talk
@danotbob
8 ай бұрын
The 2015 -2019 Warriors were always a top defensive team as well.
@adammembreno2414
9 ай бұрын
So we all know Tim and jj were talking about Andre Roberson right? No shade one of my favorite defenders
@GB-wl4tp
9 ай бұрын
How can you take the “teeth” out of defenses (remove hand checking, no hard picks, no more bumping guys on the way to the basket, allowing zone defense & rendering certain types of big men obsolete ) and then ask, “Is: Defense Wins Championships a Debate”😂😂😂 JJ wants to contend that today’s league is better skilled (largely meaning they’re able to shoot better than previous players (I agree)), but he also wants to say today’s game is just as physical… guess the part I don’t get is…how is shooting unobstructed jump shots physical??? Love this podcast!
@davidwymer8244
9 ай бұрын
I feel to grow into a championship team you need to be a top 10 offense and a top 10 defense. When as a team you have learned how to win consistently in the regular season teams can drop to an average defense in the regular season. Those same teams can ramp up their D to a modern day elite level in the playoffs. Look at Denver who start KCP and Gordon 2 high level defenders. They also closed in the playoffs with Bruce Brown over MPJ. Because they knew how to win in the regular season they were not great defensively. In the playoffs their D was significantly better and were able to consistently get stops when they needed it
@YoutubeLyfe
9 ай бұрын
Listening to both of you talk basketball is undefeated pure gold 🙏🏽
@timv7352
9 ай бұрын
Playoff vs Regular season defence is much different. The question is championships not regular season wins. Playoff basketball is literally strategy match ups where players are trying to take advantage of match ups where defenders can’t guard them…
@1MoeDolla
9 ай бұрын
Tim and JJ get an instant thumb uppie 👍🏾
@dky2006
6 ай бұрын
The recent trends and rule changes have altered how the game is played. That being said, without great defense, you won't win a championship. But without a great offense, you won't win. So a great defense is necessary but not sufficient.
@adarious2326
9 ай бұрын
To answer JJ’s question… Yes, today’s NBA is so good that you don’t need top tier defense BUT, as Legs & JJ both said… you have to be able to prove you can play effective defense when needed.
@jmar5127
9 ай бұрын
U still need to he a top 10-12 defensive team Go look at the past champions in the last 25 yrs. Even Denver who were 15th I believe in the regular season but was 3rd in the playoffs. Defense ABSOLUTELY MATTERS
@ChanBoogie310
9 ай бұрын
I’ll say this, think of every dynasty (NBA history) same core, each of those teams all had a good or great defense yes offense is important but no matter how good you are on offense if you can’t defend you not going no where. Specifically Bulls, Spurs and Warriors dynasty is the examples I’ll use in this case. Look at the Detroit pistons as well even though it’s just one example but every championship team most had the good or great defense.
@tylerdejesus6333
9 ай бұрын
Legs in his initial answer literally described the Milwaukee bucks. lol, too 2 offense defense mediocre in general but in the 4th quarter they are top 10 in defense, they get stops when they need to
@imdbtruth
9 ай бұрын
On Christmas, Luka joined Anthony Davis as the only two players in NBA history to have a game where they recorded at least *4 Steals and at least 3 Blocks* while scoring at least 50 Points! And in the same game Luka also joined Harden being the only two players to score at least 50 Points while having at least 15 Assists in the game. And it was only the 13th game in NBA history where a player has scored at least 50 Points while having at least 7 Stocks (Steals and Blocks combined = Stocks).
@jdankerdake
9 ай бұрын
It would appear, to a considerable degree, yes. Regular season defensive ratings of the past ten champions: 2023 Nuggets: 15th 2022 Warriors: 2nd 2021 Bucks: 9th 2020 Lakers: 3rd 2019 Raptors: 5th 2018 Warriors: 11th 2017 Warriors: 2nd 2016 Cavs: 10th 2015 Warriors: 1st 2014 Spurs: 4th
@WLyons9856
8 ай бұрын
The convo that starts at 8:20 is exactly why the NBA and teams today are light years more talented than the 80s and 90s. If you did that today, their 6th man is scoring 30 on you.
@benbengalykaba2957
9 ай бұрын
I am going to add an argument on why defences are less impactful nowadays. Back then there was far more two way stars in the league, stars that was taking pride in stoping the other team best guy. Mj, pippen, the glove, Bill russel, olajuwan, shaq, artest and many more.
@KMon99
9 ай бұрын
There's so many different type of plays and sets now, defense actually get more difficult. It's not about individual defense anymore (or justa helper off of the less offensive talanted); it's really team defense and everyone on the same page. In terms of defense, yes, ofc, but I'm not sure where the next version will land at.. Just reminder that while Draymond Green is not an offensive threat, he can guard 1-5 while being the orchestrator on both sides, that basically opens up the floor and not need a 5 stuck in the paint.. so maybe next version is just 5-out that can defense? or we alrdy tipped too far (looking at the wolves here)
@ranjitjaques1051
9 ай бұрын
if you just go back and check. Defensive rating has higher predictive value than offensive rating. However, if you check last year i dont think nuggets were top 5 defense, There might be a change of guard, but the ratings ill show that.
@nitoshadow
9 ай бұрын
If u put a defensive team together they could win the chips Players like kawhi pg pat bev gobert bron draymond dfs jarret Allen McDaniels holiday Alvarado jimmy Derek white bam Chet etc A team of defensive players can win cuz they can play offense too whether it’s creating or cutting spotting up picks movement etc
@wyattcannon3556
9 ай бұрын
Def talking about Tony Allen 😂
@munezbuckets830
9 ай бұрын
At 8:22 , JJ is definitely talking about the 2009 ECSF against the Boston Celtics, they literally didn't guard Kendrick Perkins the whole game, just used Rashard Lewis and Dwight Howard as help defenders on any inside action. He didn't wanna name drop Perkins LOL
@mrbingo7564
9 ай бұрын
In still lost
@munezbuckets830
9 ай бұрын
@@mrbingo7564 sorry its closer to 8:30
@denism.2590
9 ай бұрын
I love how JimmyHighroller just made a video on this topic, seems like the best bball minds on YT think in sync
@whateverman23
9 ай бұрын
Defense matters in certain moments but you need elite offensive talent first. The game is about putting the ball in the basket.
@douglasmontiel7427
9 ай бұрын
My opinion: in every sport, you need offense to win. In football you need touchdowns or field goals, in soccer you need goals, in basketball you need a basket. All predicated on offense. If both teams have the best possible defense, then a game can be 0-0 technically, but it can’t go lower than that. Resulting in a tie. Whereas it is a lot more difficult to have the same offense because the amount you can score has no limit. So any gap in offense between both team is more noticeable. You obviously need both to win, but I have always thought offense was more important. My bias is that I rather see a 140-139 game than a 98-97 game.
@powerman2610
9 ай бұрын
@JJ Redick I would love for you to comment on if you think players are better now due to Technology and The evolution of improved engineering of the BALL , Hoop and Court. The 1980's used shitty rubber balls compared to today's ball.
@bleeperton
9 ай бұрын
In the words of Syndrome from The Incredibles, "Once everyone is super, then no one will be." That's how I view offense, and why I think the adage still holds true, even if it has been less true in the past 2-3 years. Here's some interesting advanced stat averages that JJ would appreciate: Here are the average places (1st, 2nd, etc. relative to that year's league) of offensive and defensive ratings of each champion from 2010 until today (2010 Lakers - 2023 Nuggets): 3.375th OFF - 2.5th DEF Even if you don't include the 2022 Warriors as they had a 17th "best" ORtg and the #1 defense, the averages still favor defense (2.78th OFF - 2.566 DEF) Since 2000, of the 24 championship teams, 10 had better ORtgs compared to their own DRtgs, 12 had better DRtgs compared to their own ORtgs, and 2 had the same ranking. Using this same format but since 2014-15 when the Warriors ushered in the new era, the splits are 5-3-1. Although this helps the argument of modern offense being what wins championships, This is a small sample size compared to NBA history, and is irrelevant as early as 2010. I would agree that a top offense inherently gives you a better chance of winning it all than a top defense, but now that everyone and their mother has a great offense, defense is that much more valuable.
@GraniteQuarrier
8 ай бұрын
Conditioning very high too. Guys don't even sweat like they used to in the 80s and 90s.
@lmt-adventures620
9 ай бұрын
It’s almost impossible to find a great defensive team in the NBA these days because the game has changed, it’s a offensive minded game now. Even if a great defender is on a team, he can’t showcase that all the time due to fear of getting a whistle- because the game has changed and rules have changed which affect how players are coming up.
@joshowens330
9 ай бұрын
Gotta be good and elite in each. Either be elite defensively and good offensively or elite offensively and good defensively to win a chip. Last years finals the Heat were elite defensively and good offensively and the nuggets were elite offensively and really good defensively. But you also need atleast 1 guy who can get a bucket whenever they need to in the half court no matter who guards him. Cuz playoff basketball is slower and more physical. As long as a team plays good team defense they don’t need a defensive specialist.
@Phizzo4real
9 ай бұрын
Wolves and Pacers are the perfect example of this. Wolves are middle of the pack on offense, best defense - #1 in the West. Pacers are bottom half on defense, best offense - #7 seed in the East. The thing is, you dont need to be a suffocating defense to win a chip, but you can't be porous on defense either. Vice versa, you can't be lethargic on offense and win a chip no matter how suffocating your defense is.
Пікірлер: 772