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@JA-rn5qv
2 жыл бұрын
I have two vehicles, both of which are around 70k miles, both maintained very well, and both recently developed some timing chain jiggle/tick around the same time with the only variable having been that I've been purchasing the latest motor-oil formulations which are constantly being updated to be more "fuel efficient". I should note that all of the motor oils I've been using are full synthetic. I spent a good while trying to figure out why both of my vehicles would suddenly develop timing chain noise (not just at start-up but a constant jiggle/tick indicating stretching due to wear) when that shouldn't be the case yet since each vehicle is just over the 70k mark. I tried experimenting with additing viscosity improvers with some success noting that the VI's would definitely quiet things down for a bit although ultimately as that batch of motor oil would accumulate miles the timing chain noises would return but also I noticed that even if I could quiet the timing chain noises (via viscosity additives) that on hot days or once the engine/oil got hot, the noises would pop up again, thus indicating that it was not strictly a viscosity or even lubrication issue, but rather a formulation issue in which the boundary layer was becoming compromised at high temperature. Some brands of motor oils were worse than others when it came to this high temperature reduced performance characteristics issue with Mobil-1 being the worst of all, and I tried 3 different versions of that brand with their highest fuel efficiency version resulting in so much valvetrain noise to the point that it was alarming and I dumped that oil after only about 50 miles of use. SuperTech was not nearly as bad but still required a viscosity improver additive reduce the chain jiggle noise but just as before, that was only partically effective at dealing with the chain noise and the noise would progressively increase and return as miles were put on the oil and/or the oil would get hot. Because of all of my observations and experimenting with different oil viscosities, brands, as well as viscosity additives, I came to the conclusion that the timing chain noise issue was due to premature wear that was occurring due to constant changes in motor oil formulations that were being pushed by never ending government regulations/requirements for increased MPG ratings and due to this compromises were being made that were allowing for greater wear to occur in the name of improved fuel economy. The thing is, new cars are being designed to "tolerate" these new "high effeciency" motor oils with tighter tolerances and design elements that takes these types of oils in to consideration, but that does not take in to account all of the older cars on the road such as mine that although they have low miles and are well maintained, they were designed to operate with motor oils formulations that were available at the time, and which oddly enough not appear to be superior to the new motor oil formulations when it comes to wear prevention and especially maintaining their metal to metal boundary layer even in the highest temperature and critical wear/contact areas of the engine. This is where I believe I've ended up with premature timing chain wear (ie "stretched" timing chains) as this issue crept up little by little as the newest generation of motor oils have hit the market. My latest attempt to test this and attempt to address the issue it has caused was to search out an older motor oil formulation/rating and then carefully observe the results. So I discontinued using the latest formulations and instead went with an older formulation (with an actual stated HTHS of 3.6) and from the very first crank of the engine, all timing chain noise is gone and even on hot days and at oil maximum temps the timing chain jiggle has not returned. I should also note that as far as motor oil viscosity goes, I've tried to maintain a certain degree of consistency when it comes to stated cSt viscosity numbers, more so than the actual xxW-weight number on the front of the bottle since there are for example some 5W-30 rated oils that have a cSt rating of between 11.6 to 12.4 while at the same time there are some 5W-40 motor oils which are nearly identical in the cSt with a stated rating of cSt of 12.6 at 100 C. (same can be said of 0W-20 versus 0W-30 oils, check the cSt @ 100 C rating) In my case the timing chain wear has unfortunately already been done due to the reduced protection that these most up-to-date motor oil formulations, thus the long term solution is going to be installing new timing chain kits in both vehicles WAY before either of them should have had the need of such. Using an older oil formulation though is buying me time to do such work since this previous generation of oil formulation seems to do a much better job at both maintaining it's viscosity and HTHS rating than the current formulations (which in turn is providing a "buffer" to my cars timing chains, taking up just enough space in between each link of the chain to prevent it contacting the chain guides) which in some cases are actually starting off with a lower HTHS to begin with but as my own experimenting has shown, even the ones that claim to still have an HTHS above 3.2 don't seem to be able to maintain those characteristics for very long. Thus staying away from the newest motor-oil formulations which may be fine for 2018+ designed engines but the compromises they have made with these new formulations are based on increasing MPG's and not on protecting critical wear components on previous generation engine designs.
@LubricationExplained
2 жыл бұрын
Wow! Thanks for taking the time to write up such a detailed comment. You're right, and the issue of modern engine oil formulations not accounting for older members of the global fleet is an ongoing issue. In other parts of the world, they simply address this by not moving to the updated standards. You'll be hard pressed to find CK-4 Diesel engine oils in plenty of countries in SE Asia, because the fleet doesn't warrant it. Most are working on CH-4 or even earlier.
@jamisonnoel4447
8 ай бұрын
Great read! I myself have moved away from retail group IV oils “full synthetics” and only use group V 100% synthetic oil especially for wife’s Honda 1.5T. I have also read studies about excess soot from direct injected gasoline engines caused by fuel only meeting federal standards… non top tier. This soot if not handled correctly by the oil can settle in between timing chain links causing wear/stretch
@kukuhperdana
5 ай бұрын
Nice experience. You should avoid viscocity under xW-30 (0w 20, 5w 30). only use 5w40 or 0w40 or above, because new regulation about enviroment: emission, fuel economy, strict into under xW-30 oil
@_IMNNO
5 ай бұрын
Bro wrote a whole column.
@federicotorresbordils7624
4 ай бұрын
You have to go back to the oil specs when you bought the car A3/B4 much better for engine protection than C3 which is for catalytic converter conserving but this is also OK, and of course API SN always, for the GDI engines are the new SN Plus and SP that are developed for them and even maintaining good IV and HTHS BimmerN53
@tonysteele3805
4 ай бұрын
I only run oils with HTHS of 3.5 or greater in any vehicle I own. Do not let them convince you that reduced HTHS formulas are better. They don't even yield any fuel economy improvement. Stay away from anything under 3.5. The VW/Audi 504/507 or Porsche C30 C40 spec is the only one I use in anything. The government wants your car in the junk yard ASAP. Remember that.
@simonm7776
2 жыл бұрын
Another fabulous explanation. Thanks LE….HTHS is the hot topic with regards to the new range of 0W-20 oils and ACEA low SAPS C5 and C6 oils
@tevanize
3 жыл бұрын
So thankful I found this channel!❤ Keep us educated pls😅
@LubricationExplained
3 жыл бұрын
Glad you’re finding the videos useful!
@odysseyusa
Ай бұрын
Personally, I’m leaning toward HTHS, maximum viscosity for the cold temperatures seen, a good additive package, & 5k mile service intervals leading my oil decision. You may look at your oil temp gauge and think you’re fine, but as you mention, you need to choose based on worst case scenario temps at these high shear locations such as needle bearings in roller rockers, timing chain links, piston rings against cylinder liners, etc, the highest temp locations for maximum durability. Fuel efficiency loss is last considering the high cost of maintenance these days.
@NickeryNelson
Жыл бұрын
I think that I would be willing to sacrifice a bit of fuel efficiency for higher protection! So I suppose I would need to look for oil with a higher HTHS.
@albertwild4650
3 жыл бұрын
Obviously the experts have proven fuel savings by HTHS theory so another positive from the oil/chemical/OEM industries in their determined approach to emission reductions and fuel savings. A great presentation LE.
@MrSensible2
3 жыл бұрын
Except that you get exactly the same fuel economy savings from dropping kinematic viscosity (which everyone can measure) as with HTHS (which almost no-one has access to).
@albertwild4650
3 жыл бұрын
@@MrSensible2 not quite correct. You have two 10w30 engine oils with slightly different HTHS rates and the fuel economy is better with the 3 cst vs the 3.3 cst HTHS. There has to be an ideal operating viscosity otherwise you have the prospect metal to metal contact by dropping viscosity number
@MrSensible2
3 жыл бұрын
@@albertwild4650 First off, you don't measure HTHS in centistokes (cst), you measure it in centipoise (cP). Second, if you take two 10W30s both with identical KV150 (not KV100) & CCS-25, then any difference in HTHS will be miniscule. Lastly, real-life fuel economy absolutely DOES NOT correlate with HTHS. If anything, it correlates better with KV40 because most car journeys are short trips & the engine barely has time to warm up to 100°C, never mind see 150°C!
@albertwild4650
3 жыл бұрын
@@MrSensible2 cst is the cP divided by the density.
@MrSensible2
3 жыл бұрын
@@albertwild4650 Yes but this presumes you know the density of the oil at 150°C. Ever tried to measure that & not burn your fingers?
@zzman5306
5 ай бұрын
So what base oils or additives are used to make up for lower HTHS?
@Covershorts24
2 жыл бұрын
If it so that with lower HTHS fuel efficiency is higher then why the engine oil has to hv a minimum HTHS requirement to fulfil. Is HTHS to do anything with wear of moving parts??? As a very low HTHS with high temperature and high shear the film may break as its having lower viscosity and there might be chances of direct contact of moving parts….
@markwarnberg9504
3 ай бұрын
Went from a 5w30 to a 5w40 for the summer, mostly hiway driving..... no differance in the MPG.
@Stroboskop1992
2 жыл бұрын
my mazda skyactiv engine requires 0w20 have already driven 135,000 km and the engine still runs like new at the beginning I was skeptical about 0w20 but it works excellently the oil also has no oil consumption
@zsoltie95
2 жыл бұрын
Both 5W-30 and 0W-20 are allowed in Europe. I tried both: on the highway in winter and summer, mountain climbing, urban use, it was all there. The 0W-20 consumed oil at 30-40 degrees Celsius on the highway (it went from the max. to the min. in 1200 km), the 5W-30 didn’t. Furthermore, ACEA A3 and A5 are also listed in the service book. ACEA A5: 2.9 - 3.5 mPas HTHS viscosity. 0W-20 oils only have a HTHS viscosity of 2.6 mPas. So they aren’t good enough for a hot engine. In Central Europe, it is not so cold in winter (maximum 0 and -10 degrees) and the 0W isn’t more beneficial than 5W (I mean there isn’t any big difference on this degree), but instead of 20, the viscosity of 30 on the warm side is more justified, since the value of HTHS is better and 30-35 degrees is common in summer to be.
@rolandotillit2867
Жыл бұрын
Do the tolerances an engine is built with affect the HTHS that you would need?
@mohamedfaraazmasood796
Жыл бұрын
Is every diesel SUV a light diesel engine ? Also, will an A5/B5 offer enough wear protection for a high mileage diesel car ?
@cujet
Жыл бұрын
Unfortunately, modern oils often have less robust additive packages for emission system protection.
@8359s
Жыл бұрын
I have 2 oils, same ester base, one is 5W50 18.5 cst@100 4.4hths other 10w50 19.5 19.5. St@100 5.2 hths. Is the latter simply better for track days and spirited driving in Porsche 944 in summer, or it's not that simple.
@lamelessness
Жыл бұрын
Does higher HTHS necessarily mean higher protection? There are myths surrounding the BMW S65 engine rod bearing, which people claimed that the rod bearing clearance is too tight for the 10w60 oil to pass through the gap. However I think it's the HTHS being too low, contributing to the damage of rod bearing. I suppose the temperature within the bearing should be way higher than 100C and will put enourmous stress on the oil, therefore I always opt for oil that has the highest HTHS with decent 40C and 100C viscosity. Do you think if I am on the right way? Thanks
@V8Lenny
10 ай бұрын
S54 had same problem and it is that shitty 10W60 that should not be used in any engine. BMW bearing clearances are meant for 30 or 40 oil. 10W60 Castrol shears very quickly to 40 anyway so why collect that sludge from sheared VI improvers in your engine ?
@Charkatak
Жыл бұрын
A question: If my Acura J37 engine has a recommended oil grade of 5w-20, can 5w-30 oil be used instead? The reason is that 5w-20 seems to shear faster and then engine starts to consume oil at ~ 2k miles. I was thinking to get a thin 5w-30 spec oil(Pennzoil Platinum) which would slightly be thicker than a heavy 5w-20.
@averyalexander2303
8 ай бұрын
Yes, 5W-30 is fine to use in those. Feel free to try it, but don't expect miracles. The J37's have known problems with the piston rings. If your oil consumption is being caused by worn piston rings not sealing properly, no oil is going to fix that. I also doubt that any J series will significantly shear a decent 5W-20 in only 2K miles considering the fact that they don't have a turbocharger or timing chain and shouldn't be seeing particularly high oil temperatures. If the oil is actually significantly thinning out, fuel dilution would be a much more likely cause IMO.
@narcissistinjurygiver2932
Жыл бұрын
% wise what is the difference from a 2.96 hths and a 3.5 hths?
@kenj.8897
Жыл бұрын
15.43%
@stevewu6030
2 жыл бұрын
Can low HTHS oils be used in diesel engines even though they are labeled as "Gasoline Engine Oil"? The question comes from researching for A5/B5 oil for a Ford Ranger L6 diesel engine (not available in the USA) Amsoil's Signature Series 5W30 is one of the best oils with this ACEA spec and I'm in doubt if I should ignore the label since "gasoline engine oil" means nothing. 15ppm diesel is the norm here btw.
@LubricationExplained
2 жыл бұрын
Good question, and if you'd like a little more info on ACEA specs I put together an explainer: kzitem.info/news/bejne/upCZnH2IbomiioI In general, just because something is formulated as a "gasoline engine oil" doesn't necessarily mean it cannot be used in light duty Diesel engines. In fact, the A/B category is for both "gasoline and Diesel engine standards". If your Ford Ranger asks for A5/B5 and the oil you want to use meets A5/B5, then you're good to go!
@eppyz
Жыл бұрын
So if my car requires VW 508 and I put in a VW 504 oil in instead the ONLY negative is fuel economy? Or is it possible changes in certain systems start/stop tech, valve lift tech, different oil pump to accommodate the 508 oil switching to a 504 will not harm these systems in any way?
@larphraulen
Жыл бұрын
This is a question I had but in a way, Audi seems to have inadvertently provided a possible answer. My S5 calls for VW 508 but the RS5 calls for VW 504. From what I understand, the engine design and parts are almost exactly the same (including the oil pump, rocker arms) but the RS5 is a twin turbo engine vs. single turbo in the S5. Both engines are classified as EA839 engines. Long story short, I'm going to be out of warranty later this year and will be going VW 504 afterwards -- especially with some owners having rocker arm failures.
@eppyz
Жыл бұрын
@@larphraulen personally I would double-check to make sure that your vehicle doesn't have a different oil pump. Most VW vehicles that spec VW 508 do indeed have different pumps. As an example the Golf R and GTI both have a version of the EA888 but the GTI has different internals even though they share the same engine code. Will switching to 504 cause catastrophic engine failure? Of course not, but if your not tuned don't track your car then why switch? I would stay with the VW 508 and change the oil every 6 months or 5000 miles whichever comes first. Doing this? Your engine will literally last forever. It sounds like overkill but oil is cheap compared to repairs. Do yourself a favor too and don't go to sites like Bob is the Oil guy. All that place is are a bunch of people that think they know stuff and generally confuse people or give bad info. There are some knowledgeable people there but most have left. Your car do what you think is best👍
@auswis
Ай бұрын
@@larphraulen Hey, I found myself in the exact same position, out of warranty, s5, currently on 0w-20 but researching 5w-30, 5w-40, 0w-30 and etc. Did you happen to switch to 504 VW504 which I assume is 5w-30 oil?
@MrSensible2
3 жыл бұрын
IMHO the importance & modern day relevance of HTHS is massively overstated. It's the lubricant equivalent of Visible Pantie Line; something for the naturally neurotic to stress about but which isn't really that big a deal...
@LubricationExplained
3 жыл бұрын
Hahaha. That's probably true to a certain extent. It's probably gained so much prominence because the engine OEMs are trying to pull every lever to show emissions reductions, and realistically there aren't all that many variables to control with engine oils.
@MrSensible2
3 жыл бұрын
@@LubricationExplained As you probably realised, I am not a huge fan of HTHS. However, in 1977, when SAE & ASTM kicked off their work on High Temperature Rheology, I was but a spotty faced, know-nothing, uni student, a couple of decades away from my first professional contact with the slippery stuff. Out of curiosity, I've indulged in a bit of a deep dive in to the history of HTHS to see what exactly bought this test into the crankcase oil mainstream. What I quickly discovered is that the story is far from straight forward. This is summed up in the first line of a book dedicated to the subject (& I quote)... "The issue of HTHS oil viscosity & its relationship to engine operation has achieved the distinction of becoming one of the most controversial issues to enter the area of automotive lubricant development". Yes, even back then, it's clear there were serious industry people who DIDN'T believe this test correlated to engine problems! I rest my case...
@lesliedsouza4077
3 жыл бұрын
@@MrSensible2 Gotta Be In It, To Win It :)
@MrSensible2
3 жыл бұрын
@@lesliedsouza4077 True but with HTHS, there was no prize; nothing to actually 'win'.
@lesliedsouza4077
3 жыл бұрын
@@MrSensible2 :) I was kinda joking :) But, the subject of this vid was the relevance of HTHS? LE said that viscosity improvers do their job, when New, Out of the bottle. But, over the service interval, they degrade, under high temp & shear conditions? Therefore, the HTHS parameter was created? As an indicator? Estimating resistance to degradation? A VI degraded oil might allow better fuel economy, due to reduced viscosity. The other effect could be increased metal wear? Seems you read a book, Quoted & Rest your case? I did not read that book. I try to think? Not always right :) I don't worry about writing books :)
@Alhamadani91
3 жыл бұрын
what is the relation between hths and the (high mid low) saps ?
@MrSensible2
3 жыл бұрын
None
@albertwild4650
3 жыл бұрын
Yes none
@akmasn9429
Жыл бұрын
Greaaaat
@albertwild4650
3 жыл бұрын
👍
@Christopher._M
10 күн бұрын
So this is why diesel trucks are breaking down hahaha
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