In my opinion almost every run starts out kind of mediocre as the writers are getting a grasp on the character and after that they get it or they never understand it
@Dinobolt1
21 күн бұрын
I have also seen the opposite happen where a run starts out strong but then something goes wrong after a period of time.
@rayvenkman2087
21 күн бұрын
@@Dinobolt1Tom King?
@rickrivers2021
21 күн бұрын
For Spider-Man its usually the opposite. Michelinie, JMS, and Slott combine to nearly twenty years worth of ASM. All start fairly strong and then lose their way eventually
@rayvenkman2087
21 күн бұрын
@@rickrivers2021 Except the end of JMS' run on Joe Q forcing OMD on him.
@FinnSutoThe2nd
21 күн бұрын
I actually talked about that on stream. I feel like a lot of the older runs get better as they go on. Ditko, Conway, Wein, Wolfman, Stan Lee's the exception. I think they made it up as they went along so the writers got better as they got a feel for the character. Modern runs seem reversed. Wells apparently got better on the second half (can't confirm), Spencer fell off, Slott's first half had Spider-Verse and Superior and the second Worldwide. JMS falls off with Civil War, Sins Past and OMD. Maybe modern runs are more planned out so the early stuff goes according to plan while the ladder halves run in to editorial meddling forcing improvisation. I don't know if it's a real thing but it's a thought I had.
@rickrivers2021
21 күн бұрын
Wolfman does have a clear pitch I'd argue: story by story, bit by bit, he takes away familiar elements of Peter's life and flips them on their head. The break up with MJ, the graduating college, the affair with Betty, getting fired from the bugle, Aunt May seemingly dying etc. Whereas Wein's run was seemingly scared to rock the boat, Wolfman's arguably rocked the boat too much I think in this way he actually is rather similar to Slott. His sense of direction is not to everybody's liking and doesn't actually *grow* the character. But he does shake things up and put you in a totally new status quo
@FinnSutoThe2nd
21 күн бұрын
I see it. Peter's driving everyone away. Take away family so you can see it's true value. The big scene comes with Robertson telling Peter about the importance of family. Lesson being there's always more life if you want. I think Ned could use a POV. He just comes back, is mad and that's that. We lack a scene where he shows the sadness behind the anger. Could've had a scene show him struggling between his love for his work versus his love for his wife. But we don't get that. Instead, all we see is Ned be mad. Maybe he just lacks satisfying resolution. Peter just tells Harry he had his reasons and Harry's like "Wow. Didn't think of that." Then they're presumably ok. It doesn't go anywhere. Harry doesn't really grow from it and neither does Peter making it feel pointless. To be fair, that's pretty much how me and my friends make up. One of us just shows up and we're cool. Not even apologies. I guess realistic although not satisfying storytelling. At least to me. Dare I even compare it to Wells' run? Both runs drive away the supporting cast and deal with Peter's self-isolating ways.
@rickrivers2021
21 күн бұрын
@@FinnSutoThe2nd Yeah exactly. I agree that we could get more from Ned's POV, but to be fair, that is true for basically every era of the character. He has always been little more than a plot device and the only writer that ever seemed to put much effort into him at all is Defalco, which ofc resolved lacklusterly when Priest fired him from the book I also agree that the execution was imperfect. I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks this run is *good*, I personally just rather enjoy it and feel its overly forgotten albeit flawed Its totally comparable to Wells from the perspective of how Peter is approached. The difference is Id argue is that the Wells run feels edited to death, with his own input seemingly muddied up with obediently fulfilling the publisher's various agendas (sell event books, create new designs for toys and liscensing, manufacture drama purely to drive discussion, forced brand synergy, and sticking it to angry fans). This makes the Wells run *much* worse imo. Not to mention, Wolfman is dealing with a much younger Peter who you can still have sympathy for, whereas Wells retreads flaws long since matured out of, undoing explicit character progression
@m.e.4946
21 күн бұрын
I very much agree with that being the central thesis of Wolfman's run, and I'll very much give him credit for his ambition, particularly in comparison to Wein's run (although I do enjoy that run for its strengths) which runs in place pretty much the entire time, and the most important events in his run - Betty and Ned's wedding and Harry's return, relationship with Liz Allan, and the battle of the Goblins (the first one, at least) - all affect the supporting cast, not Peter himself. That said, I think the execution of these changes could've been handled with more finesse. The things Wolfman is attempting to deconstruct are either institutions of the Spider-Man book at this point (the Daily Bugle, Aunt May) or recent occurrences that need further development (Ned and Betty's marriage, Peter and M.J.'s relationship). As such, he seems to go for a more scorched-earth approach by drastically altering the status quo over the first 10-15 issues, many times without properly setting plot points up. Betty leaves Ned during the honeymoon and gets to cheating on him with Peter from #184 onwards. That is the first time we see either of them after their wedding at the beginning of Wein's run, and the thinnest of explanations is given to "justify" their affair. Peter proposes to M.J. in #182, but she says no (in #183) and Peter accidentally burns his romantic bridge with her by missing their date in issue #191. Jameson seemingly loses his son in issue #190, which causes him to go off the deep end, losing Robbie and Peter in the process throughout the next 5-10 issues. I give the college graduation a pass because Peter did need to progress past that phase at some point to give even the pretense of progression in his story some merit. The Aunt May plot actually had some potential if Wolfman didn't dilute its impact by bringing her back a few issues later. Her relationship with (and to) Peter was a staid one at this point, and seeing just how impactful Aunt May being gone is on Peter would have been a much more satisfying story if it had been given more time to breathe. Overall, I think Wolfman's run could have been several notches better if some of these plots were dropped, partially because they didn't have enough room to breathe (the stuff at the Bugle, and the first end of Peter/M.J.), and partially because they were just not good ideas (pretty much everything in the Betty/Ned plot (barring some major rewriting), and a lot of the execution of Jameson's instability). If the run's main plots had been Jonah's unraveling throughout several issues after John's supposed demise (with a lot more care and detail in not making him too cartoony, which undermined how serious his grief was), and Aunt May's faked death and its effect on Peter (to have Jameson and Peter grow as people), I'd probably consider it one of the best. As it stands, it's very lofty in its goals, but it drops a lot of what it's trying to juggle and falls short of the heights it wants to reach, in my opinion. Black Cat's introduction is a pretty unqualified positive, though.
@rickrivers2021
21 күн бұрын
@@m.e.4946 yeah, I basically agree with everything you said here. I enjoy the run and I admire hiw gutsy it is, but the execution is without a doubt flawed
@davidakin3840
21 күн бұрын
even though you think theaase runs are bad I love them so much. i love the drama the art style the genuineess of the characters I love this spiderman I love this time period for spiderman
@needfoolthings
14 күн бұрын
How old were you when you first read them and were they the first you read, are the two questions that answer if you're biased by nostalgia.
@davidakin3840
14 күн бұрын
i turned 17 in may started reading when I was 16 in feb. its not nostalgia. everything before one more day is peak fiction
@needfoolthings
13 күн бұрын
@@davidakin3840 I appreciate that. Except push the borderline forward to 1992
@MetalFaceKillah
20 күн бұрын
I refer to the time between his break up with MJ and him marrying her in 87 as, the spectacular bachelor era. When he lives at 410 Cheslea and has the 4 jobs (Spider-Man, photographer, grad student, TA). But overall this 14 or so years is pretty stagnant for peters character but has good SPIDEY stories
@needfoolthings
14 күн бұрын
Gruenwald's Captain America run is so good! Until it isn't and drags on for 8 years or so...
@ItsOver9000Productions
21 күн бұрын
I'd say a lil more than half proportionately
@popman1997
21 күн бұрын
For me, if a comic starts out medicore or bad I give it a few issues before I drop it or consider it just bad. You know since it's a new writer and they might just be having issues getting the voices of the characters and the flow of the comic. It's understandable why the first half of a run would be a bit bumpy or bad in some instances. What matters to me is how you end the run. Again that's just me. I tend to be more forgiving to these more earlish issues given the time period and everything. Doesn't change the fact that the bad half can lower the quality of a run, regardless of how the good half is. Give me peak Spider-Man and then you have a bad second half, that's gonna stick with me
@JetLagRecords
21 күн бұрын
FinnSuto II, cool video keep up the amazing content
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