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@user-rc1ub7zl5n
10 ай бұрын
aTTaCK tHe D pOInT!
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
i cannot pin this but please note it was AMANE and not AYAME who rushed in to console coco. Asked for the change but unfortunately didn't go through. Also Amane Kanata is the perfect wife
@James_1997
10 ай бұрын
War Thunder sponsor, that's pretty based.
@AsaniSywen
10 ай бұрын
just a correction: you said she didn't know Delatuya Δ, but that is incorrect as she is also an ex-hololive talent (although very very short, and also an interesting story and dark page from Hololive )
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
@@AsaniSywen no because Coco graduated in 2021. Delatuya joined hololive in 2022
@rlus6758
10 ай бұрын
Fun fact: Kson got gifted so much snacks from Taiwanese fans that Taiwanese snack company literally just sponsored her
@P0rk_Sinigang
9 ай бұрын
Pretty cool from that company from Taiwan, a place that is a real country.
@Franpowah
8 ай бұрын
@@P0rk_Sinigang The true China. Taiwan #1
@ODDnanref
7 ай бұрын
@@Franpowah Yup, Taiwan is the real China.
@chinkyflahz
6 ай бұрын
She was basically already sent a lifetime supply by fans.
@CJODell12
2 ай бұрын
The Taiwanese clearly sympathized with Kson during the whole incident.
@ps4pro668
10 ай бұрын
They broke off the entire CN branch just to save Coco. Mad respect for that decision.
@Ballistic477
10 ай бұрын
It’s one of the best decisions ever made by the company, other corporations should look up to Cover
@Flugmorph
10 ай бұрын
well its more that the CN branch broke itself off, there was almost no other decision to be made by cover at that point.
@Cowslippoetry
10 ай бұрын
Not quite. Cover saw the immense success of Myth and realized that the Western English speaking market was far more lucrative and way less volatile than the Sino market. Add onto that the utterly insane requirements imposed upon foreign businesses wishing to dip their toes into China, and it was an easy decision for Cover to sever ties with the fledgling Holo CN branch. A stroke of serendipity more than strategic genius. With that said, I will forever hold it against Cover for not protecting Coco better. Yes, they were in a truly difficult position, but when it comes to the bottom line or protecting your own, you always pick the latter. I don't compromise on this, even when it is pragmatic self-deletion. A business isn't a family, so you can't expect your business / company to protect you; that was the lesson Coco's cancellation taught me.
@Flugmorph
10 ай бұрын
@@Cowslippoetry and thus, a villain was born...
@nicoleuswhite2192
10 ай бұрын
@@Cowslippoetryyeah, I agree. I feel like Cover's protection for their vtubers was severely under developed for the time. It isn't until this year that Cover and Niji released that joint statement
@revbladez5773
10 ай бұрын
The ironic part is that the reason Taiwan was that high in the first place is that Chinese had to use VPN to even see her streams and they put their VPN in Taiwan.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
No shot!
@Rhethardation
10 ай бұрын
@@rimaevenstarAllegedly but it's funny to think about.
@renoslash1890
10 ай бұрын
@@Rhethardation Are you saying that China has a free and open internet?
@andromedamessier3176
9 ай бұрын
Honestly, very funny to think about considering Taiwan population 😂
@skruber8619
9 ай бұрын
Always claim Taiwan as a part of their land Direct traveling is banned Have to use VPN to get over internet great wall Get mad seeing Taiwan flag
@ElliotKeaton
9 ай бұрын
A clarification about the stream in which Coco broke down crying: Five days before that happened, Coco asked management to go through her VODs and block the anti accounts because she was tired of doing it by herself every night since management wouldn't get her chat mods. Instead of blocking the antis, management somehow managed to give "all of the antis" (Coco's words) mod status on her channel. The antis then spent the next several hours blocking her fans until, by chance, Coco saw a tweet from a fan asking why she had blocked him. Coco removed the antis mod status but by then the antis had blocked half of her fans from her channel. What makes this even worse is that KZitem doesn't keep a list of blocked accounts on a channel, meaning that Coco had to manually figure out who was blocked by asking on Twitter (which was flooded with hate spam) and hoping that her blocked fans would check there, and if they did she then had to find a comment from them somewhere in the chat of one of her VODs (that were four hours long on average) so that she could unblock them. Coco was already busy and under a ton of stress as it was, but now she had to stay up for hours each night trying to fix this as quickly as she could. After five nights of this, during the middle of what was supposed to be a milestone stream that Coco had planned to celebrate with her fans, while in the middle of trying to explain to them why so many of them were blocked she started crying. And if you're curious, it took over three months for her to fix this. (Also her roommate was Kanatan.)
@setsuna200
9 ай бұрын
Kanata and Coco are best friends. Even after her graduation. Kanata moved out because she saw how broken Rushia/Mikeneko was after her termination. Coco/KSon decided to keep an eye on her because after her meltdown, she didn't want to see her do something more drastic. It took her months to get better. Mikeneko still isn't at 100% after the DELUTAYA drama, which is unknown because we don't know what the true start of it was. We do know Kson got involved and helped dissolve the situation behind the scenes. What Mikneko did recently was a good thing her "fans" said that she shouldn't play with male vtubers. She practiced weeks with 2 indie Japanese vtubers, which led her to withdraw from the tournament, and then she called out her "fans" and told them off. She was mad, but she laid down a line. She held her ground and called out her toxic fans live on stream. Old mikeneko wouldn't have done that. I am glad she did. It's her life she has a right who she can play with.
@ElliotKeaton
9 ай бұрын
@@setsuna200 _"Kanata moved out because she saw how broken Rushia/Mikeneko was after her termination."_ The _day after_ Kson announced that she was joining VShojo, Kanatan tweeted this: この後から運営さんとの緊急ミーティングが入ってしまって、ちょっと今日も配信おやすみです…!おやすみ続いていてごめんね🥲🙇♂ Kanatan cancelled her stream plans for that day because management called Kanatan (and no other members) to "an emergency meeting" immediately following Kson's announcement. Kanatan's _first stream_ after that was her saying that she had decided to move. Go read the Tier 2 membership posts Kson made right after that if you want to see _why_ "Kanatan suddenly decided" to move. _"Coco/KSon decided to keep an eye on her because after her meltdown, she didn't want to see her do something more drastic."_ Kson and Nazuna don't live together and never lived together. That misconception stems from the title of a clip of two different streams that were edited together as a joke. Kson did a cartwheel, and Nazuna reacted to a loud sound in a game. The title of the video: kson making noise in the next room during Nazuna's live streaming. [Collage Video / VSHOJO/ENG SUB]
@PyroDay991
9 ай бұрын
They're real scumbags and hololive should also be ashamed of how they enabled this shit with such a amateur mistake Such a simple one that it's kind of suspicious really, what kind of moron makes the people they're meant to block into mods?!!?
@Fulcrox
9 ай бұрын
@@setsuna200 Mike the cat went down so bad after the graduation, picking on fights and still being pals with dramatubers, glad she is slowly improving as a better person, she even got work as a seiyuu in a small role, maybe some day she will become a full fledged one and finally leave the ghost of Rushia behind. But as far i remember Kanata never said why she moved out, at least not completely. We know they lived togheter for a time after Coco graduation, and they even moved out of Holohouse togheter to live alone, she just said one day she had to move out of her house very sudden and didnt give further details.
@01100101011100100111
9 ай бұрын
I hadn't heard about this. Thank you for sharing.
@KarribuWurst
10 ай бұрын
Coco said once on stream, every time she did an english unarchived singing stream she gained over 10.000 new subscriber from the western audience. This shows how popular she was with the west.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
A legend
@Fulcrox
9 ай бұрын
Welp, she is also a Western so it makes sense, Coco was one of the best, still is as Kson
@TheMadSalviGaming
10 ай бұрын
Although she was and is a very strong woman, so much hate will get to anyone in the end. Kaichou did not deserve all of the anti hate she received. Hololive learned a lot and have changed a lot due to this saga. She will always be the GOAT.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
She is one hell of a women. And she’s got my respect and will be an inspiration to me for the rest of my life
@TheMadSalviGaming
10 ай бұрын
@@rimaevenstar She is a big inspiration for me to keep pushing forward no matter what anyone says, and being true to yourself. thank you so much for making this video
@serghonest9
10 ай бұрын
"Not all of the hate"? Don't tell me you agree with some of the hate....
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
@@serghonest9 i dont think thats how he meant it. At least thats not how i read it. :o
@nathanael9159
10 ай бұрын
@@serghonest9???
@Earliersphere
10 ай бұрын
A thing I liked about Coco's final days was her encouragement to Calli to ignore the haters and keep being true to herself. As well as passing the asacoco to Ame and Kiara, encouraging them to keep pursuing their Ideas and unique content. which has gotten us some of the best content from Myth, to me that is a big part of her legacy plus her Kson stuff has helped grow the wider market of Vtubing.
@NekomiyaTH
10 ай бұрын
All Coco and Cover could have just ignored all theese ccp simp when drama was going on, but sadly, it turned out the way it is.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
@@NekomiyaTH :(
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Yesss totally agree!
@nathanael9159
10 ай бұрын
@@NekomiyaTHCCP would have persisted tho...
@Rhethardation
10 ай бұрын
Kson telling Demondice to ignore the hate. That's akin to Telling a brick wall to never stop being a brick wall. 😅 No ones ever gonna read this.
@Jpmrocks7
10 ай бұрын
One thing about Coco's graduation, was the stream right before her final farewell. Kanata was making her breakfast before the show, and it was probably the most hard hitting thing I'd heard. Just two BFFs prepping for the end.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Shes actually the perfect wife roomate did u see all the snacks she would bring her
@Fulcrox
9 ай бұрын
Sad they stopped living togheter, they had the best bromance (sismance? lol) going on, Kanata parents legit questioned their relationship so many times lmao
@DrywaII
10 ай бұрын
absolutely insane the antis still went after her when she became kson like damn didn’t you get what you wanted when she graduated??!! they don’t know when to stop😢
@L16htW4rr10r
10 ай бұрын
A jerk is a jerk no matter what unfortunately...
@lordzaboem
10 ай бұрын
What do they want? "More" If you cave to a bully or negotiate with a bully, the bully always demands more.
@starplatinum5311
10 ай бұрын
It china, the country where using sewer oil to cook food in restaurant are legal, where newly build building shake like a dandelion in the wind, where school feeding children literal poison and kid are punish if their parent said otherwise, need I say more?
@TheSkyheart5
10 ай бұрын
@@lordzaboem Yeah, but what was Coco supposed to do? Never leave Hololive just to deny them the perception of a win? Even if she graduated three years after the incident they would still claim it as a victory.
@sonofsueraf
10 ай бұрын
@@TheSkyheart5what are you talking about?
@ectothermic
10 ай бұрын
I didn't realise she was only around for such a short time, Kaichou literally changed the game and made it possible for the west to appreciate Vtubers seriously. ALSO, she finally made it into the Like a Dragon/Yakuza games as an NPC! Might be slightly parasocial but I was losing it when that happened. 👀
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Sometimes i just watch her 3D dance with the 2 male backup dancers before going to bed and it makes me smile
@draconicthemoelion7726
10 ай бұрын
Yeah. I'm still shocked that it's been three years since I watched her graduation stream, and that she was only even around for one year as Coco. The impact she had on the industry was just monumental. She literally changed everything, almost singlehandedly.
@Ms666slayer
10 ай бұрын
Something interesting abou how much spam Coco hadn in chat after the Taiwan incident is that, KZitem actually asked to used her channel to test some new anti spam stuff they were developing because her channel was the perfect candidate for it which Cover accepted, also Coco is the one that made superchat big in Japan.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
No way! Thats interesting. Ty for that
@jubutsu_house
9 ай бұрын
Fun fact, there's almost no superchat in other company streams like vspo and nijisanji before gen 4 exists. Also blue superchats flow when streamer goes toilet break are originally from Kiryu Coco Ch. 😅
@jubutsu_house
9 ай бұрын
Also one when they sneezes
@silversergio
10 ай бұрын
Just imagine: she was with Hololive for only 1.5 years - and changed during this time the whole industry of Vtubing. A bit sad story with important lesson - never have any deals with PRC. But good she find her own place and living her dream❤
@westcandlekiky
10 ай бұрын
the funny thing is the real PRC is Taiwan, there are chinese people there and they have election there. while in China they still stuck with CCP.
@nathanael9159
10 ай бұрын
Indeed.
@nunyabz9494
10 ай бұрын
she's basically like some of the athletes that had to get new rules added into the game specifically for the game
@your_waifu_hates_you
9 ай бұрын
China uncensored has been warning this kind of stuff for years now lol
@solitaregames
9 ай бұрын
If it wasnt for Coco, Myth would not had existed. As she was the one pushing for an English Branch, speaking for the fans.
@Phoenix_VT
10 ай бұрын
As a Chinese American, I hate what kind of nationalists the CCP has created in their citizens. I'm glad Hololive told them to fuck off and pulled out cold turkey on the market. And I'm glad the Chinese audience is still able to watch and have a clipping culture for those who are mentally healthy. I hope nothing but the best for Kson in her future endeavors and will always be grateful to her for creating Hololive English.
@hadookin47
10 ай бұрын
Heck, I'd say the CCP leaders are the nationalists, almost fascists, and the citizens have been made to fear stepping out of line, for example mentioning Taiwan's existence. Prayers for the citizens of China and Taiwan
@hermawandon7812
10 ай бұрын
Fun facts is a lot of non mainland born chinese hate ccp Even in my country which have a lot of chinese population majority of them hate ccp And pro taiwanese
@boboboy8189
9 ай бұрын
US also did similar shit, but diguised it under freedom
@hermawandon7812
9 ай бұрын
@@boboboy8189 murica is more like prison to milking the poor give them hope and dream they cannot achieve while their money used by rich and war with other country
@Phoenix_VT
9 ай бұрын
@@boboboy8189 I'm not ignorant of the US' nationalist brainwashing, but it isn't relevant to this in particular
@ezrafaulk3076
10 ай бұрын
I had no *idea* ! I mean I'd heard about Coco getting deplatformed just for not stroking Chinas overinflated ego, but I had *no* idea she was the whole *reason* we have the Hololive EN branch; I also had no idea that the person behind Kson was the same person behind Coco! Thanks for letting me know; now I wanna subscribe to Kson. Show her some *more* support; *especially* since I appreciate her attitude about the kind of content she makes!
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Yayy!! Im glad i got to help out kson even if its in this tiny way :)
@ealberty610
10 ай бұрын
This is going to be hard to watch. Coco was a wonderful character and it was a damn shame what happened to her. I really wanted to see her collab with Holo EN a lot more than she was able to.
@slanted7235
10 ай бұрын
I still remember her graduation concert like it was yesterday, over 500k viewers!!! Half of a freakin million!! Even people who aren't in the vtuber rabbit hole have to respect that! Half of a million people LIVE, and all across the globe for one person.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Mad respect for the oranged hair dragon lady
@AnimeSquirrel
10 ай бұрын
I became a holofan at the tail end of this drama. I still remember Coco being upset that the antis were spamming other holos for collabing with her and the lengths everyone went to to try to block the harrasment. Cover was critisized heavily and alot of opinions of Cover back then are similar to how fans see Anycolor now. Its sad she had to go through that, but Cover and Hololive have been able to grow so much since then. The CCP and its brainwashed Netizens are 100 to blame for all this and the world of vtubing is brighter without them.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
That’s a great point you had on how it’s affected how people view the corp until now.
@AnimeSquirrel
10 ай бұрын
@rimaevenstar It was a bit grim back them. I remember seeing blame flung everywhere. Cover was blamed for not protecting their talents properly, Yagoo was blamed for going along with the antis and not supporting Coco and Haachama. It was dark times. I'll never forget Cocos' graduation interview with Yagoo. I feel that was a solid turning point for Covers' reputation starting to recover. Coco's graduation set the bar for such events.
@Batista_Travel
10 ай бұрын
When Haachama said that if she didn't show the analytics none of this would've happened I started crying :'( poor girl must've felt so guilty... For the longest time Coco was my favorite hololive member. I was devastated when I heard the news... whatever she's doing right now, I hope she's doing great 🧡 VIVA LA COCO!!!
@CreatrixTiara
9 ай бұрын
Same, and I hadn't heard of Haachama before this! (I'd heard of Kson but not much). All of this over ANALYTICS, jfc
@Abattoir23
9 ай бұрын
What makes me really happy is that when Haachama came back from her 8month hiatus recently, there was like 100k live viewers. Showing her she is greatly loved. No one blames her.
@Gakusangi
9 ай бұрын
It was a rough watch. It's not wonder she's had to take such long health breaks. I'm so glad she's back and in higher spirits.
@Filthyllamas
8 ай бұрын
Yea idk why somehow it really got my eyes tear up a bit, its really rare for me to even get a single drop of tears, but this is really sad.
@dansmith1661
7 ай бұрын
We also wouldn't know that Niji wouldn't protects its talents when pressed by outside forces, because they really want that money.
@KeebeThePlush
10 ай бұрын
She deserved way better
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
She’s did
@Bam_Bizzler
10 ай бұрын
Did hololive ever apologize to her? Idk if they ever did. It's the one thing i still hold against holo
@dcresistance
10 ай бұрын
@@Bam_Bizzler She left amicably, and there's zero bad blood between them
@ectothermic
10 ай бұрын
@@Bam_Bizzler From what I know she never left in bad terms, she wasn't fired or anything she simply graduated. The door is open for the future to maaaaybe bring the character back for small events but that's unlikely. Of the few Holo graduations I know about I think only Rushia's was a mess for all involved.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
@@Bam_Bizzler maybe yagoo apologized in person who knows. Im sure he felt fondly about her as he was very emotional during he graduation. He seemed to feel bad
@ElizabethMikkelsenCH
10 ай бұрын
She didn't deserve any of the harassment that happened to her. I'm glad Kson is doing so well after everything that happened and that no matter how much the antis pushed she never gave up on vtubing.
@boringplace7752
10 ай бұрын
There are days where I wish that Kaichou was still a part of Hololive, given how much it has considerably grown since she had left. A part of me wished that I could've seen her on stage along side HoloEN back in July, how she would've rocked the crowd in 3rd and 4th fes, and with how much she had inspired me to improve, I wished that she was still here as a dragon... But seeing her win a role in her all time favorite series, seeing her with such joy, reminded me of how much joy she brought me. As much as I wished she were still in Hololive, I know that she had to fly higher, and I wished for her to do so. Seeing her now, I smile thinking to myself, "Damn. This bitch fucking made it."
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
That comment made me emotional.. im 100% with u
@draconicthemoelion7726
10 ай бұрын
I really want to write a fanfic where a bunch of Vtubers get isekaied, with a climactic scene where the Holos sing to open a gate leading home, with Watame and Kanata pulling Kson onstage with them during _Our Bright Parade_. The project was too ambitious to be honest. I wouldn't be able to do it on my own. But I had a lot of notes. A lot of the characters had gimmicks, or special powers. Kson's was that if she said the right incantation at 6:00 AM, she would turn into Coco for the rest of the day and get all the powers of a true dragon. At the finale concert, it's everyone's admiration for Kson that turns her back into Coco. I had also hoped to put Haruka and Ironmouse up there with them, because Haruka's a big Hololive admirer, and Ironmouse has physical limitations. There was going to be a major subplot where Silvervale and Ironmouse try to figure out why they drifted apart, but couldn't reach a resolution. Silver nevertheless can't come to grips with Mousey's mortality, and tries to force her to stay behind in the other world where she can run and jump and dance whenever she wants, but of course, Mousey's not okay with that, having already had to deal with all the trauma that came with her illness, and she's overcome it with her friends and family. Mousey often tells us that that nothing lasts forever. I think that given the option of magically being cured but never seeing her family and a bunch of her friends again, and continuing to live with her illness until either a cure emerges, or the alternative happens, but be surrounded by her friends and family the whole time, she'd choose her loved ones. She's already demonstrated that she has an undefeated determination to stay positive in the face of overwhelming odds. I wish I had collaborators for this project, but for now, I'll satisfy myself with Hololive comedy sketches.
@Freedomcustom
9 ай бұрын
@@draconicthemoelion7726 I'd say go for it, nothing wrong with a little fandom if u like something and have something u want to write about.
@MrJJandJim
9 ай бұрын
@@draconicthemoelion7726 I say start writing it. One piece at a time. You can always go back and edit it later, if you want to. But start now! I would definitely read it! I'm a terrible critic, but I would always offer encouragement! I may not know much about the vtubers themselves either, but I do recognize a couple of names (Mostly Ironmouse). Tell your story, or it'll never live at all. Tell it all at once, or upload it in pieces, whatever would be easier for you. Just start writing, and I think you'll find some support.
@Subukuru
10 ай бұрын
Even though I got into vtubing after the incident and subsequent leaving of coco, it still made me tear up a bit hearing her story. She truely is a strong women made for the entertainment business
@Ph0t_0w0
10 ай бұрын
I actually almost cried at the part of Coco’s graduation when Haachama started crying and asking why she was still streaming
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
I cried so much while doing this video i had to make u guys cry too. I can’t be the only one crying 😭
@Ph0t_0w0
10 ай бұрын
@@rimaevenstar it’s hard sometimes to remember there’s a person behind the silly anime girl/guy and when moments like that happen and show the true person, it really hits different. Thank you for the reminder and great video.
@nicoleuswhite2192
10 ай бұрын
It's funny because I am a hardcore Filthy Frank fan and that's why I discovered Kiryu Coco and Hololive as a whole, from Coco's Japanese for Real series. From Coco's Asacoco segments I also got acquainted with her fellow hololive members, and it snowballed from there. I was very sad when she announced her graduation but it's all right now since everything turned out well for her! Kaichou, may you find further success in other life, in another form!! O7
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
thats funny u discovered her from filthy frank?! whaaat ahah
@nicoleuswhite2192
10 ай бұрын
@@rimaevenstar I mean they have sort of similar humor lol.. filthy Frank's japanese 101 feels the same as Coco's Japanese for Real
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
@@nicoleuswhite2192 oooh yeah i could see that. Based
@juanmanuelalamos5579
10 ай бұрын
I was just entering the rabbithole when coco was leaving, even then I felt that we were losing a special member to the community, hope kson and holo can growth stronger and build a even greater loving comunnity.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Awww same ❤️
@phillyjones3028
10 ай бұрын
Its no one's fault. Its no one FAQing fault. Its none of the two. Not Coco...not even Haachama that blamed herself at the end there... If it takes a fat, ugly-minded group of people to break one important person, the love that Coco created will only be enough to fight it back. Her graduation didn't mean a loss, it paved way to where we are in the VTuber sphere today, thanks to her bravery and her work. She's still working hard now in her next life, and will accomplish more as she keeps it up. Let this video remind you not to hate, but to protect and appreciate who youre watching, cuz they can only bring you happiness, nothing more. Never forget, and love each other. Stay safe yall
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Yes!! Hate breeds hate. We need to stop the cycle of hatred. Make love not war✌️
@CJODell12
10 ай бұрын
You mean her past/current life
@lareolanKFP
10 ай бұрын
How can you say it's no one's fault when the fault clearly lies with the criminal CCP regime that's brainwashed 3 generations of people to turn them into psychopathic, racist, ultra-nationalists?
@DarkFenix2k5
10 ай бұрын
Nobody's fault? It's the Chinese Internet community's fault, a more disgusting group of people it's hard to find on Earth.
@yi_hou3092
10 ай бұрын
in the end of the day always blame the Chinese Communist Party and the Nationalists
@BeastOrGod
10 ай бұрын
*AND REMEMBER* it's illegal for the Chinese to watch youtube! These people goes out of their way to breaking the law to harass and intimidate other countries, while their own country doesn't allow them that freedom of speech.
@NekomiyaTH
10 ай бұрын
If it for ccp party, they will just let ccp simp run wild with no repercussions even if it illegal.
@Ballistic477
10 ай бұрын
ikr, it’s just pathetic
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Didnt even think of that. Thats wild
@yoshipeamachinespawn3658
10 ай бұрын
More than wild. From what I can tell, it's outright insane! W H Y?
@ThraceVega
10 ай бұрын
Man, this was a tough watch. The video was fantastic, but THE FEELS AGAIN.
@Zerohour2k12
10 ай бұрын
Those Nationalist dudes didn't have to go that far as to harrass and cancel her. This one really hit hard for the whole community. Dang, this opened up old wounds. Just glad Kson's still around. She and Miko pulled me into this rabbithole. Really sad to look back on but still, thanks Rima!
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Only sad were not gonna see more Marine x Coco collabs those interactions where the funniest by far omg
@Psych0Mat
10 ай бұрын
I cried again after 2 years! Damn Coco was a hallmark of Vtube history that everyone is trying to catch up even to this day!
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
😢
@p-roxy
10 ай бұрын
Damn.. her graduation still tears me up till now. Thank you for the throwback tribute to a legend.❤ I was not fully aware about the CN branch and the 2 livers mention as well as the savehololive group. I look forward to your cover on the topics. Thank you for all the effort Ms. Evenstar! 😊❤
@MenrvaS
10 ай бұрын
Kaichou was my gateway to Hololive. So yeah, I was there during the “Taiwan is a country” incident. I would like to add something about Hololive Moment. They had the audacity to use the fan favorite ‘Hololive Hearthstone’ as a leverage to turn the fans against Cover and Kaichou. Turns out the best comment in the comment section at that time was ‘Good Riddance’. They really shot themselves, in the head, and the fans were all happy.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
I cant believe it!!
@yohannbiimu
10 ай бұрын
My favorite stream with Coco (before her "Farewell stream") was one she did with Sakura Miko where Coco was helping with her "Elite English," which led to the "Take me to the Statue of Liberty," and "Fly me to the top of the Statue of Liberty" challenges. That was so hilarious. 😂
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Ive seen those!! Could not fit them in the video but those moments were GREAT
@Abattoir23
9 ай бұрын
I have re-watched those several times lately! My favorite part is the name exchange xD "My name is, um, Sakura Miko. Thank you." "Call me coco" "Sakura Miko" "call me Coco" "No no no. With me, Sakura..." "...Sakura"
@yohannbiimu
9 ай бұрын
@@Abattoir23 And then, Coco just dutifully follows along and afterward repeats "Call Me CoCo..." to which Miko says "Ahhh...Coco...Coco YEAH!" The whole thing interspersed with Coco's giggling also makes it precious.
@henoldpcllama
10 ай бұрын
Hear okami mio try to prevent coco from graduating .it feels sad and dilema as well. Glad kson into the game she love 😊
@Ojisan642
10 ай бұрын
This video is so good. I already knew this story but I enjoyed this video from start to finish. I even got emotional towards the end. Thank you for your hard work! Otsukare Rima!
@twistedwashu
10 ай бұрын
Yoooo congrats on another amazing video Rima! From the history lesson on China's political past to all the stuff that I didn't know about the Holo 4th gen. What an incredibly interesting and informative documentary! Well done!
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Thank you so much 🙏😊
@0d0gn
10 ай бұрын
As an autistic person I have this natural buff against toxicity I'm generally so unaware that someone is trying to be mean to me that I can't be affected by it. And I generally don't care about people I don't know so internet aggression doesn't do anything.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
That’s lowkey an op trait
@KhaosFrosty
10 ай бұрын
i.e. "You deal with harassment because you're tough. I deal with harassment because I'm autistic. We are not the same."
@0d0gn
10 ай бұрын
throughout the majority of my life other people have to tell me when someone is being a dick to me. I'm a guy and have always been significantly larger than everyone else and have violent outbursts when i get frustrated so people never physically fked with me. so 90% of the time i don't know they're trying to fk with me.@@KhaosFrosty
@houki8636
10 ай бұрын
I have ASD too and I’m the same. Most of the time people would feel offended on my behalf. Personally, if I don’t know you, or I don’t care about you, I could care less about what you say.
@qinyima5693
9 ай бұрын
Wish I could do that, respect bro
@melishidiao7148
10 ай бұрын
She is the one only member can immune from Yagoo's divinity ,She can bully yagoo , beat yagoo . And the only one who testing yagoo's dreams by sora and azki saying "mthrfker" on stream
@MrBassestar
10 ай бұрын
I'm glad I found you a couple weeks ago. Being relatively new to the vtuber world (been here for about a year now), learning about the history of some events in depth is truly interesting (and sad, I didn't even know about Rushia when I watched your vid about her nor did I really know of Coco that much apart from her graduation from Holo, yet both of these video really got me emotional). Loving your work, easy to understand and flows well, can"t wait for the next video !
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Thank you so much! Welcome aboard
@sweetrules2
10 ай бұрын
If not for Coco, I likely never would have gotten into vtubers. I was so sad when she graduated, but I'm thankful for what I was there to enjoy. And I was so glad to see her doing well even after. I hope she keeps shining and having fun doing what she loves.
@SakuraScout
10 ай бұрын
Loved the video Rima! I hope newcomers to the Vtuber rabbithole can learn about Coco that they only know as an old legend. Crazy how much she influenced in such a short time.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
I try to make my video as an introduction to the vtubing world so I hope so too ^^
@overachiever-undertaker
7 ай бұрын
In the span of 36 minutes, I’ve been convinced to follow a new VTuber. I cried, man.
@thebesthitscd3323
10 ай бұрын
A very minor correction would be that Coco's roommate was actually Kanata and not Ayame but other than that this was a well put together and informative video on the whole Taiwan situation that happened. Nice work with this and i'll be sure to check out some of your other videos 👍
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
yess i know that mistake really bothers me ahah. I'm trying not to get triggered by it. Thank you for leaving a comment
@Killble
10 ай бұрын
it's sad seeing coco go, but it's so good for Kson to get the happiness she deserves.
@Killble
10 ай бұрын
plus coco will be remembered by every hololive fan for starting a lot of trends and starting the existence of hololive english
@hayden3732
10 ай бұрын
Came across the community post and you weren’t kidding the amount of effort you put in this video. Also a Sponsor !? I’m happy for you, always good to see people win in life. Speaking of Wins,Kson winning the contest is just the best middle finger to the haters. I blocked this from my memory,but to think it all started with a mention of Taiwan. While it hurt going down memory lane, you did an amazing cover of the events.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
I wanted to make people feel all king of emotions but most importantly I wanted to underline the strength she had to go through it all and keep her head high. Ty so much!
@MrEcoho
10 ай бұрын
you know when she graduated a lot of the guys in my unit joked that if we ever went to war with west Taiwan we would raise a flag with Coco's face and yell " FOR COCO!" as we ran into battle.
@TheGimpster101
10 ай бұрын
I still remember being there for her final stream, I think it cried around 4 times throughout that whole experience. One part that broke me was TMT asking if she really wasn’t going to be there tomorrow.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
That was heartbreaking
@fayitsa622
10 ай бұрын
Something that ironmouse has stated in a quote: "If that dedication was used solving world problems instead of hating me maaan...like you can become a scientist,a lawyer,but instead you are such a big fan that you are thinking about me everyday." This is when you know the internet is...too much sometimes Kson is truly a sweetheart and deserve so much in the world 🌍❤️
@Takudayo
9 ай бұрын
holy hell hachama breakdown made me tear up a little, i dont cry usually but that really hit the spot.
@AnitaSleap1080z
10 ай бұрын
Incredible video and history of Kson!
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Thank you! :)
@timmy3822
8 ай бұрын
Oh man I didn’t expect to tear up watching this video. Hearing the 4th gen girls getting upset was rough. I never knew Coco got upset like that on stream. I’m not ashamed to say it affects me deeply when I see or hear people in distress, those were rough days for holo fans and especially for the girls on the receiving end of all that ridiculous hate.
@rimaevenstar
8 ай бұрын
i think its normal to be protective of such a genuine person like coco. you and me both
@hanisu93
10 ай бұрын
Kiryu Coco was my first vtuber oshi. She was the one that pulled me into the rabbit hole that is vtubing and Hololive. She was also my first vtuber graduation so it hits me real hard. I remember vividly my morning when she did her graduation announcement. The white background with black block wording. The bright morning changed. I cried for days. Just remembering her brought me to tears. It was pretty traumatic when I think about it again now because I don't remember how much harassment she and her friends had to endure and rewatching this made me go "Oh yeah that happened, oh yeaaa that happened too.. and that.. and that..." and I only retain a real deep hatred for the CCP government now. I don't hate the antis much but the one that made them antis antis. Coco is really a legendary and inspiring person. I love Kson so much even to this day. ❤️
@Gamesmarts194
10 ай бұрын
I think the thing that's hilariously pathetic about the reaction to "Taiwan" was that we've had a holomember literally say a racial slur (Miko saying the N-word) and she got nowhere near the amount of hate that Coco did. They didn't try to correct her before they raised the torchee and pitchforks. It's like they were bunch of kids throwing a tantrum.
@entransify
Ай бұрын
to be fair, Miko wasn't being malicious or anything, so what was there to get angry at her about? some probably still did, but Japan doesn't exactly have that word over there and I highly doubt Miko knew what it meant.
@MATTierial
10 ай бұрын
I love KSON. She's such a bada$$, and she deserves the f*cking world!
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
That she does!
@AfrinonM
10 ай бұрын
What they did to Coco was what caused me to, if I'm being frank, hate China as a whole. Before that I knew what the CCP was doing, but that was just the government, right? The people can't be so extreme. But, I can't believe the CCP mobilized all the antis that came out against Coco. Yeah, they could probably their team of paid nationalistic assholes to attack and draw attention to her, but the people still have to see that and choose to respond the way they did. I know it's not fair, and probably not completely true, but the heart doesn't always listen to the head, especially when it is pained deeply.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
For some reason it failed to appeal to their human hearts to see someone suffering. I feel like anyone could see it was a mistake but you know how people get when they start riling up each other online..
@lordzaboem
10 ай бұрын
20:47 Ye gads, this guy shut down his own channel because Coco showed a screenshot in which KZitem acknowledged that Taiwan exists. He wasn't even mad at KZitem. That's like cutting off your nose to spite (not your face) your kneecap.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
It’s definelty weirdo behaviour tryna scapegoat ur hate onto someone u CAN hate
@HashiriyaR32
10 ай бұрын
17:00 It was Muse Dash's original PUBLISHER (XD Network/Heartbeat Network) that revoked Cover's streaming perms for the game, and the devs had nothing to do with it. The developer has since cut ties with XDN and published the game themselves via a subsidiary, but no word on perms being re-instated. 28:41 It was never actually confirmed whether there were even plans to allow the HoloCN girls to keep their avatars to begin with, as the only mention of such was from none other than Artia, but given what was discovered about her, as well as CN2, and Civia, it's safe to say that Artia's mention of this was nothing more than a desperate power play to seize IP that wasn't hers to begin with.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Ur right it did start from the girls and then everyone kinda spread it. Not actually confirmed.
@columbien10
10 ай бұрын
Leaving the CN branch was the best decision in Hololive History
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Big brained
@columbien10
10 ай бұрын
@@rimaevenstar omg thank you for responding, I really like your videos and have been an active viewer for like 3 months May I ask what accent that is? I can't quite pin point it
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
@@columbien10 french canadian
@Arcashine
10 ай бұрын
Rima, your content gets better and better. Can't wait to see where you go.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
I try! Every time i feel like I’m improving little by little :) tysm!!
@entransify
Ай бұрын
she certainly didn't deserve any of the harassment, but she was always probably going to leave anyway, due to her conflicts with management over creative freedom.
@lalikus2258
10 ай бұрын
Great job as always Rima!
@Righthandfrombehind
10 ай бұрын
Thanks for reminding us why there's so much emotion at the time. Few revelations here and there. You covered this topic the best even comparing some of the best KZitemrs here.
@VindyCh.
10 ай бұрын
As i mentioned in the live chat, it was Kanata and not Ayame rushed into Coco's room to confort her. Remember caption xD
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
I wrote a comment under my pinned hopefully people see it. I looked into the editor and unfortunately i dont have the option to change it. I mald so hard when there is tiny mistakes like this 😭😭
@VindyCh.
10 ай бұрын
@@rimaevenstar Ah dont worry about it, its ok !! Things happen 😅
@BluJay_Rx
10 ай бұрын
I've never known this person until now. However, seeing how emotional everyone was to her graduating, those clips of VTubers who weren't collabing with her at the time but were breaking down, that all truly got me emotional! I consider that a testament to your story telling and a testament to the kind of person she was. Thank you for sharing this
@melishidiao7148
10 ай бұрын
That's the reason she is the strongest vtuber alive . Because no one will survive that other than her . She survive and with a Middle finger on both sides.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Ur rughr Not many people could have survived that without loosing their kindness.
@ogwastakenalso
10 ай бұрын
I cried :( amazing video!
@rtstrong
10 ай бұрын
Coco is legend. Her impact on EN vtubing and vtubing in general cannot be overstated.
@rce3236
10 ай бұрын
Il always be sad that Coco is gone but it means the world to me that Kson is thriving as an entertainer! It was such a sad series of events that led to such a fantastic evolution for Vtubing in general. Holo messed up at the start but was smart to save face and stand up to the Chinese trolls in the end. I hope one day, if Kson approves, that they allow collabs. I know the idea breaks the whole Kfab thing but screw it, we all love her and China can go kick rocks!
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Maybe I can see Marine n Coco together again then that’d be great 🥺
@casternova4347
10 ай бұрын
Amazing video. Learned a lot about Coco. I've seen her around like many vtubers. It's incredible how they go through so much and still come out fantastic people. Bravo 👏
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it!❤️
@idno4856
10 ай бұрын
Really appreciate this vid. There's a ton of stuff I didn't know about. Good work and ty
@OshiiSide
Ай бұрын
29:49 i started tearing. 30:39 i started crying. hearing them talk about her before and now is heart breaking.
@HoloProEnjoyer
2 ай бұрын
I still dont understand why antis attacked Coco and Haachama but not KZitem/Google. It was in THEIR analytics. They made it that way and separated both. So essentially they got mad at those 2 for showing stats that were part of the system.
@HoloTofuCh
10 ай бұрын
Damn even though I know kson is doing so much better now, being reminded of everything she had to go through during that time still makes me emotional🥲 Thanks for making this, and great job!
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
I cried so much doing the video as well its very emotional indeed
@MrALUCARDIII
10 ай бұрын
I am a simple man. I see a Coco video I watch it, I give it a like and I cry remembering the good ol´times.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
🥲✌️
@setsuna200
9 ай бұрын
Cocos loss was what told Cover to grow a spine to protect their talents better. The start was with Yozora Mel and her stalker. It took months to find this individual and have him arrested. Then came Aloe with the harassment which caused her to graduate. She wasn't even a full month into streaming. Then came Coco leaving due to the pro China brigade. Finally, Rushia's meltdown which got her terminated. This is when Cover realized they need to do better with their talents. Thus the 3-month hiatus for Laplus because she was doing so much and didn't take breaks. Cover told her take as much you need to get better. She did and she made it clear she will not tolerate the antis and the mods will now ban them. Gura take an indefinite hiatus with sparatic streams. I honestly think she should just take some time to herself to get better like Hachama did. Then comes Aqua very sparatic schedule being a away for months. She burned herself out on Apex that she didn't have fun streaming. Which is why she streams less. Shion is in a similar situation as Aqua but as she was getting help the cat, she has had with her passed away which took a major blow to her mental health. Finally, the 8-month hiatus for Hachama she made a statement saying she was getting help and needs more time. This gave us a sign and Hachama then returned. She streams but she also doesn't force herself to stream everyday now if she's not feeling ok mentally. Vesper and Magni graduation was not a fault on cover Vesper said after his first suspension it was his fault. It was sad but Vesper left because he couldn't keep his temper in check and didn't want to cause issues. Cover is not perfect, but they are learning from mistakes is something other vtuber companies should do. We have seen with other agencies with mismanagement. Talents having use their own money for contests because management changed their mind at the last second. Agencies not having any management structure, or their management was the problem. We lost some good talents because when they asked question what I can or can't do, they did not give proper answers. We have talents who overworked themselves and got poached by other agencies because they gave the help which was needed. We have seen agencies let their talents out to dry when they did nothing wrong and made no statement saying we stand with the talent. Also, talents getting shadow banned and being forced to apologize. 2023 has not been a good year for being a vtuber. But if it wasn't for Coco deciding to leave, I honestly think things might have gotten worse cause the good agencies that were able to survive may have gotten extremely complacent. When that happens things will only get worse. I was upset seeing Coco leave but a lot of good came from her leaving. It showed things needed to change so this would not happen again. I understand this was a long rant, but I tried to make it as short as I could. Thanks for reading.
@sirflimflam
9 ай бұрын
This all happened way before I even considered watching a vtuber but it's such a sad damn story. People praise Cover for having her back at the end there but did they really? They restricted her until she literally moved to graduate, and then finally let her do whatever. I'm sure it was a fine farewell but it didn't have to be that way had they not literally isolated her from everyone else and created an atmosphere that caused all her colleagues to shy away from her out of fear. it must have been extremely depressing working in that kind of environment. It's no wonder she broke down and moved to graduate.
@Recusant39
3 ай бұрын
30:03 Her 4th Gen Hololive friends paying tribute and crying for her leaving... "There will always be five of us." I'm in tears! 😭
@oOoSenri
10 ай бұрын
Just wanted to say thank you for this video, I only started watching vtubers after catching clips during Council debut and came across the graduation concert of Coco. There are stories here and there all the time & i can't seems to pierce the information together correctly. You've presented the information clearly, your voice is very clear & enjoyable to listen to! Will be looking forward to more videos from you!
@richardryley3660
10 ай бұрын
I'm amused at how much Kson looks like her originsl model. And herself, of course. Coco was cute, but I like how Kson os just this nornal human delinquent in a world of demons, monsters and nature spirits.She's the Batman of VTubing. 😂 I had heard a lot about the Taiwan incident, but I had no idea why CN was eventually disbanded. I just thought it was part of the whole thing, not infiltrators from China trying to wreck Coco. I'm looking forward to that Part 2 video.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
I love how her model is modelled after her. Shows how comfortable she is with herself
@FuryOnIce
10 ай бұрын
Not finished the video yet but I’m happy to see you land a sponsor. Hopefully it might help with your demonetisation problems recently!
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Ahh yes it should surely help! They said if the video does well they might renew it too ^^
@Rias-Gremory-a-gamer
9 ай бұрын
Thanks for the video it was informative i feel bad for the Vtuber Kiryu Coco what was done to her is disgusting i live in Australia where differences are not punished but i know how bad some leaders in certain parts of the world are. to the person who is Kiryu Coco i am so sorry to hear what happened to you its not right i hope you are doing well and are safe.
@arionofotherworld
10 ай бұрын
She's great as Kson, but i still miss Coco. Still it was nice that her channel remained after the graduation.
@Mooseshovel
6 ай бұрын
What touched me most was that basically everyone was on Cocos side and when graduation time came, the whole firm was incredibly heartbroken. Its very heartwarming to see Also props to hololive for dropkicking CN off a cliff for what they did, the scumfucks
@vanilla_freeze
7 ай бұрын
24:00 aside from the whole "happening during the midst of and because of the whole china situation" this moment is baked into my head as a legendary hololive moment; just Suisei modding a large number of her most loyal supporters and siccing them on the spam bots just doesn't get old. And Fubuki not just greeting Coco publicly, but even having dinner with her and even tweeting about it in the midst of all this, she definitely knew what was going to happen and she simply did not care, Coco was/is her friend.
@David-fm6go
6 ай бұрын
The Coco situation became something of a symbolic moment for me regarding the nature of the global relationship with Red China. Trade and integration with the global economy was suppose to push the mainland towards becoming a freer and open society. Instead it has merely exposed the global economy to pressure to compromise with an authoritarian regime and help cover up its actions. Taiwan, Tibet, The Uighurs, Hong Kong, Tiananmen Square... Mention any of them and they will unperson you. They are able to exert pressure via corporate investment in business, via institutional investment in organizations and universities, and via the culture war weaponizing cancel culture to declare any Beijing critic to be a racist. This gives them any number of useful idiots in the West, well intentioned or otherwise, to carry out their desires. It is only going to get worse from here.
@bluestripe5682
9 ай бұрын
"Taiwan is a country??!!!! NEGATIVE INFINITE SOCIAL CREDIT POINTS" -Winnie the Pooh of Bing Xiling
@michaelevans1547
10 ай бұрын
I'm a newcomer in vtubing and didn't even know the story before. Of course, I heared legends about Coco, but didn't suppose there were such reasons for her to leave... thank you for sharing! It's sad, that autocraties manage to spoil life not only in their oun countries, but beyond them as well. Although there's nothing new in it
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Im glad to hear that! I try to make my videos an intro into vtubing for those who missed out on large past events :p
@jtoegi
10 ай бұрын
Taiwan is a country 🇹🇼
@RazeVII
10 ай бұрын
Shout it loud clear so all can hear.
@Sabata101
10 ай бұрын
Like a VTuber Coco Kiryu: Never Sorry a Kson Story.
@NeoMatrixYT
10 ай бұрын
For the Dragon Lady to be attacked, eliminated, reincarnated, just to finally achieve her ultimate dream and rise as the dragon queen…This could legit be inspiration for an anime plot.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
She IS the main character
@Harkz0r
9 ай бұрын
Coco in her prime was truly legendary. Absolutely deserving of the Kiryu name. Very supportive to her colleagues, _absolutely_ one of the most hilarious people I've seen online (Asacoco was always an experience, and it was the clips of the hair removal stream and her watching her doped-up self that got me into Hololive in the first place). But also incredibly resilient and surprisingly self-aware which shone through in her Zatsudans sometimes. To be honest, her current content as kson doesn't quite hit the same to me, and also as Coco after the whole incident happened before her eventual graduation, I could tell things had changed. But during her peak she was completely untouchable. I'll always know her as a true pioneer and inspiration. Edit: I do have to say I'm looking forward to seeing her in RGG Infinite Wealth! I was so happy when I learned she actually passed the audition, I can't think of anyone more deserving!
@supercoolmaniajon265
5 ай бұрын
A dragon is slain, It was sad but now she's back As a delinquent. -A Haiku for Kiryu (2019 - 2021) You were sorely missed, but we're glad that you've found happiness in your new life.
@qittfthegame6128
19 күн бұрын
Warthuder Mentioned!!!!!🗣️🔥🔥 Also Coco was by far one of the most influential Vtubers of all time. Loved her personality.
@princesskristan
7 ай бұрын
I love her so much! I screamed when she joined VShojo, and watching her with the other girls makes me smile, and I'm so happy that her wish of being in a game came true! I sobbed
@JinSeiryuu
10 ай бұрын
I am glad everything thing worked out for her in the end 😊
@Deathspark
7 ай бұрын
Seeing all the english members debut was so fantastic. Even kson was so excited for them. Coco really helped bring a golden age to vtubing. I as well cried during her graduation. But im glad she lived on as kson
@Yubl10
8 ай бұрын
Not really on the topic of the video but interesting, nonetheless, and some people might not know. Something interesting about kson is that her name was originally kason named after a character from the old tv show madtv, but she later changed it to kson. As far as I know, she has only ever explained this once. I have heard her explain it partly sometimes but only fully once.
@grinnazeed
10 ай бұрын
I can't think of anything more stressful, energy-wasting, and tiring thing to do other than harassing, if I hate someone or something, I'll just ignore.
@rimaevenstar
10 ай бұрын
Me too.. I simply can’t fathom it. I suppose thats why its so shocking
@scif121
10 ай бұрын
Just think. She is living strong and realising her dreams. Meanwhile all her antis have to live under a government that will never appreciate them and will all go unrecognised for their behaviour. And yet she might not have gotten where she is now without them.
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