When the sun rises in the west, sets in the east, when the seas go dry and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves, _then_ ASoIaF will be finished
@maciejszulc2684
7 ай бұрын
I just realised this prophecy sounds awfully like a nuclear war.
@XUKcomic
7 ай бұрын
😂😂😂
@EvilDoresh
7 ай бұрын
@@maciejszulc2684 Imagine how many books he'd need for his world to enter the nuclear age
@falconeshield
7 ай бұрын
I always understood it as BOW
@gorilladisco9108
7 ай бұрын
... and real socialism will be successfully implemented.
@Falstaff0809
7 ай бұрын
Like many successful authors, Martin needed a wise, ruthless editor.
@Hfsm33
7 ай бұрын
Winds of Winter going over 1500 pages and still another book to go is insane. It's clear someone should have told him "NO" all the way back in Feast for Crows.
@AdamBlack
7 ай бұрын
@@Hfsm33 This is literally a Robert Jordan WoT retread. excessive plotting, die before finishing ( I was so bored of the HUGE "game of Houses" Backstory in wot i didnt initially see GOT )
@hamzamahmood9565
7 ай бұрын
@@Hfsm33The thing is, he doesn't want to rush the plot in order to finish it within 2 books, that would make everything seem very forced and unnatural. This magical number of "7 books" is the great limiting factor for ASOIAF, and honestly, I'd just prefer him give us the 6th book and tell his fans to write up the ending themselves, however many additional books it takes.
@falconeshield
7 ай бұрын
@@hamzamahmood9565IT'S BEEN 13 YEARS SINCE HIS LATEST BOOK IN THE SERIES
@LordSluggo
7 ай бұрын
@@hamzamahmood9565 On the one hand, yes, no one wants a half-baked, rushed and unsatisfying ending. However, there's so many side characters, side plots, and fetch quests set up in AFFC and ADWD that it's no surprise he's had trouble bringing it all together. Likewise, while I understand all the symbology in his writings, his descriptions of feasts, banners, halls, etc., has just become rambing and self-indulgent. Having read AFFC directly after ASoS, it was blatantly apparant that George was already getting bored with his own story back then.
@lalolanda8458
6 ай бұрын
Paraphrasing Vargas Llosa: "The novelist is obligated to choose what he will tell. He cannot tell everything there is, for life is insurmountable, always expanding, and in failing to do so, he would never finish writing it".
@jimluebke3869
2 ай бұрын
And the reader is obligated to choose what he will read. If the story doesn't offer you anything (like in George's nihilistic tales) it's best to choose not to read it.
@publiusventidiusbassus1232
2 ай бұрын
@@jimluebke3869 you can tell who hasn't read ASOIAF when they say stuff like its "just pointless nihilism", same to "there are no good guys" - his story is not for the shallow idealism of 90% fantasy books, it is at its an unjudgementally human narrative. The characterization of ASOIAF is without peril in how it juggles dark realism, instrospection, heroism amd villany.
@jimluebke3869
2 ай бұрын
@@publiusventidiusbassus1232 Sorry man, I read several books in -- until I realized that it was horror, not fantasy. It's just pointless nihilism. If you're incredibly pretentious, a bit nihilistic yourself, capable of fooling yourself into seeing things that aren't there, and completely devoid of recognizing realistic hope? Well you're still better off reading something other than Martin, like anything created by a third-rate AI.
@6alcantara
2 ай бұрын
@@jimluebke3869maybe you can provide some examples of the nihilism in asoiaf?
@levirognejensen1745
2 ай бұрын
So true, if people think Asoiaf Is nihilist then Dune, Dostoevsky and Conan must be downright suicide fuel to these people@@publiusventidiusbassus1232
@nebojsag.5871
7 ай бұрын
The Witcher series is even more pessimistic, but it is kind of Gilgamesh-like in its answer of "Oh well, life is shit and then you die, but do try to live as well and as kindly as you can while you still can."
@MagneMirare
7 ай бұрын
I do want to visit the Witcher in the future. I think it did right what ASOIAF missed. Part of it seems to be hidden somewhere in the undeniable Slavic nature of the books. And I think that you are onto something with concept kindness, but I'll have to think about it more.
@nebojsag.5871
7 ай бұрын
@@MagneMirare The books are violently anti-utopian. They wholeheartedly accept that the world is horrible, and if you read it carefully, you will find that there is a strong Marxist-materialist current in there, as an explanation for why the world is so horrible, but it rejects the Marxist call to political action, or any call to political action aimed at social transformation whatsoever, including Enlightenment imperialism, insurrectionary struggles of the colonized as well as scientific technocracy, but this denounciation is the crassest and least-skillfully written, by far. It is also deeply doomerist about climate change. There is an old joke from the 90s in East Europe that encapsulated the world-view. "Comrade, did you watch the news today? It turns out communism is bullshit, all the good things we were told about it were lies!" "Yes comrade, but we already knew this. Now capitalism is coming, and the communists most certainly did not lie about what capitalism is like"
@shorewall
7 ай бұрын
I was gonna say, at least the Witcher has its East European background as a reason for being pessimistic. :D
@falconeshield
7 ай бұрын
@@shorewallHmm. F***.
@TheTeodorsoldierabvb
7 ай бұрын
@@MagneMirare As a Slav, I can kind of confirm this. We never lived easy lives but the harder it is the more stubborn we become, as a culture. There's sort of... fatalistic heroism around.
@a.j.carter2294
7 ай бұрын
The beauty of Martin’s failure is that it’s created a huge void for fantasy consumers that previously unrecognized/new writers can now potentially fill.
@kosmas173
7 ай бұрын
And that none of them will be ever universally recognized since they won't be written by Martin himself.
@franesustic988
7 ай бұрын
What about people that are now hesitant to read any unfinished series? Thereby killing off countless fantasy writers from the get go (since people are disinclined to buy a mere pt 1 of 5)? Did you consider that void?
@numb3r5ev3n
7 ай бұрын
It's him riffing on inspiration from Tad Williams and his Memory, Sorrow, And Thorn Trilogy. He made expys of some of the characters and copied some of the plot elements and went in his own direction with it, but he doesn't seem to have known really where he was going with it. Tad Williams has responded by writing a new trilogy as a follow-up to his original one, riffing on some of Martin's plot elements in ASOIAF. But he's managed to finish this follow-up trilogy in less than ten years. The final book is being released near the end of 2024. We've yet to get so much as a release date for The Winds Of Winter from Martin.
@a.j.carter2294
7 ай бұрын
@@franesustic988 Sure I considered that. I think that’s their problem. People will spend their money how they will. We can’t blame Martin for that.
@a.j.carter2294
7 ай бұрын
@@kosmas173 Lol okay? Most authors I’d say don’t care about “universal recognition.” That’s a vain pursuit. Besides, to say no other author will achieve a similar level of fame/recognition is ridiculous frankly.
@Alex-mn1fb
7 ай бұрын
He subverted the expectation that a fantasy series should be finished
@sheila19954
2 ай бұрын
@kaiserfranzjoseph9311 So what?
@sheila19954
2 ай бұрын
@kaiserfranzjoseph9311 Y'all dickride GRRM too much
@simoneidson21
2 ай бұрын
Tolkien also didn’t finish the Legendarium
@Alex-mn1fb
2 ай бұрын
@@simoneidson21 Dont be ridiculous. He finished the main story. The Legendarium was ever expanding, and he reworked it several times, but thats beside the point. his main opus is there, finished, from cover to cover. Martins characters and world stand frozen midway through the story for over a decade now.
@Сайтамен
Ай бұрын
@kaiserfranzjoseph9311 but they don't become as popular
@annafdd
6 ай бұрын
A friend of mine just made this observation about why Martin won’t finish WoW: “The thing is, if somebody has had a very hard life and had to work every minute of his time to just keep his head above water, and you give them a whole sackload of money, they might discover there are better things in life than glueing your butt to a chair writing for eight hours a day.”
@vlovksy1
Ай бұрын
"Au contraire", if you are a writer and you are given a whole sackload of money, you don't have to worry about anything but writing. It's just an speculation on my part, but I think the reason is emotional, because the money is a non issue now for Martin. I think it's related to how the whole experience of making the TV show, the disagreements with the writers and the terrible ending. Maybe it really ruined his writing process.
@zara-zq1oi
Ай бұрын
Pressure is death for creatives! The entire world has been going at him for years! This comment section is the most entitled display of selfish people I have ever seen! The creator hasn’t even read the books 1 minute in he already proved that!
@zara-zq1oi
Ай бұрын
@@vlovksy1exactly not just that! But just look at this comment section! Full of talentless people who are just being entitled and selfish and acting like he can’t write! The show should have never been made before he finished writing! The pressure and judgment was clearly a creative killer for him! Dan and Dave ruined everything.
@deanrobb9220
27 күн бұрын
But GRRM is glued to a chair and writing, and editing and writing some more. He works on other things such as wild cards, dark winds and tv shows. He just isn't writing winds (enough to get it done anyway). In one blog post He stated that he needs months (writing winds uninterrupted) to get a solid amount of work done but he only gets hours at a time.
@San_Vito
26 күн бұрын
@@zara-zq1oiStephen King has explained how he pressures himself into writing every day. Dostoyevski wrote Crime and Punishment as fast as he could because he had a huge debt. Writing as a job, as opposed to doing it as a hobby, requires discipline and hard work.
@monophthalmos9633
7 ай бұрын
Hard to call him a gardener, when you consider that gardening consists to a large degree of cutting, trimming and removing stuff.
@Amantducafe
7 ай бұрын
He's a Bonsai gardener
@midgetwthahacksaw
7 ай бұрын
@@AmantducafeExcept ASoRaF is a Redwood he's pruning not a Bonsai.
@christianpetersen163
7 ай бұрын
Oh but he does remove a lot of "stuff", doesn't he? 🤔
@anon2427
7 ай бұрын
@@Amantducafethat is the exact opposite of what he is. GRRM is a mint gardener if anything
@Amantducafe
7 ай бұрын
@@anon2427 No no, we all got it wrong, he actually likes animal husbandry
@Maerahn
7 ай бұрын
I don't think Martin helped himself by agreeing to his series being turned into a tv series before he'd finished it - particularly knowing how long he's taken to write each book towards the end. He gave D&D an outline for how he THOUGHT it would end (bearing in mind he's a 'gardener' writer at heart,) and they seriously dropped the ball with it, leaving legions of fans with a sour taste in their mouths that provoked a backlash about how much they hated the way it ended. So now he's stuck; does he risk continuing with his 'original' outline, hoping he can make it a better version than D&D's hated one? Or does he go in another direction entirely, to appease his disgruntled fans - but risk creating something they hate even more?
@Sorain1
7 ай бұрын
He should stick with it. Both because he's already done the work for it in the previous books and because it's the only way to stick it to them for spiking the ball instead of finishing the play properly. People on the internet speculated that he had them deliberately do a bad ending, so his ending would be better recived. I don't believe in that, but I can see where people get that idea from. Every attempt to rewrite the plots of major series to 'undo a spoiler' have been disasters, see Mass Effect 3 for an example of 'ending leaked, hastily rewritten, narrative disaster ensues' that is very fresh in mind.
@keybladechosn1
7 ай бұрын
JK Rowling wasn't done with Harry Potter when the film series came out. I f I recall the final book came out when Order of the Phoenix film came out. So that was 5th movie when she finished the series.
@jasonkerbs806
7 ай бұрын
I simply don't see how this could be the case, with what we saw in the show being the outline for what he had in mind. For one, the later half of the show left out many very important characters and plotlines which are very much active in the books (Aegon and the Golden Company landing in Westeros, and already taking castles, or Victarion taking his fleet to find Daenerys, or Euron raiding and invading the Reach, or the impending battle between Stannis and the Bolton/Frey armies in the North, Davos being sent to find Rickon beyond the wall, etc.) At best, he only told them a few key ideas, like the possible resurrection of Jon Snow, and Daenerys inevitably ending up a complete lunatic like her father which was always apparent anyways if you actually paid any attention to her characters actions
@muzgash
7 ай бұрын
Martin is laughing all the way to the bank. I doubt that he financially needs to create anything anymore and no doubt the thrill is gone with this story. The genie is out of the bottle and off doing his misdeeds elsewhere.
@LordSluggo
7 ай бұрын
@@keybladechosn1 JK Rowling also finished her series in less time than it's taken George to *not* finish one book. The problem was, the signs were there even back when George made his deal with HBO. A Dance with Dragons was allegedly mostly-done when a Feast for Crows was published (being it was basically one huge book being split into two parts) and it still took him six years to finish.
@jonathanemerling1071
7 ай бұрын
I don’t see how he can satisfactorily wrap up the story in just two books
@wawawuu1514
7 ай бұрын
He alluded to the possibility himself.
@jonathanemerling1071
7 ай бұрын
@@wawawuu1514 I don’t care if he has to write ten more books, I’d just like him to finish the story.
@wawawuu1514
7 ай бұрын
@@jonathanemerling1071 Me too. At this point, I wonder if he'll even finish TWoW.
@HiveFleetUlfang1
7 ай бұрын
The last two books didn't cover enough ground, because he wants TWoW to be the one that's made of reveals.
@falconeshield
7 ай бұрын
@@HiveFleetUlfang1Well I was a teen when he started to dro the chapters and now I'm 34. No one waits forever.
@umwha
7 ай бұрын
It’s a great analysis. But I fundamnetally disagree. Martin is not ultimately cynical. He’s a disappointed idealist. You seem to read it as nonstop grimdark with no hope or ideal. I don’t see that. I see that it is deeply about hope in a dark world. Belief and religion is not always bad. Brienne is religious and her love of mythology is central to her goal to pursue honour and goodness. Her goodness prompts the change to Jaime, whose redemption is also tied up with a reignition of mythic thought - naming the sword - oathkeeper- naming his horse - honour. They even literally embody myths within the universe- they are forced to reenact the bear and the maiden fair , beauty and the beast (roles reversed) and even Galladon and the Maiden (the maiden gave a sword to Galladon, as Jaime gives a sword to Brienne). It oozes hope amongst darkness. Sansa never has given up her sensitivity and love of songs. Arya is not giving up her identity because she hid needle. Theon recovered his self and chose to help save Jayne. I feel that perhaps you have been more influenced by the show than you think. The show also took your view and thought GoT was grimdark. They made Brienne a callous murderer (fuck honour), made Sansa into ‘dark Sansa’ to show she was a strong girl boss. They made Jon’s destiny and parentage mean nothing, and made Dany evil for no reason. And made Jaime revert his personality.
@MagneMirare
7 ай бұрын
I think you are right to some extent. Now, to me, disappointed idealist just sounds like cynic with a history. But yes, there are certain personal mythological qualities. I just think they too far and too few to keep Martin capable of handling it for 30 years. These glimpses of hope are beautiful for their intimate feel. But the problem is, that I don't think that Martin believes, that personal goodness is capable of saving the world, to make it better place. That's the issue that I think broke Martin. As for the show, for the last few seasons I paid attention mostly to different synopsis and reviews - specifically because I found the thing itself appalling and was interested mostly in it's eventual cultural impact. I don't really think my analysis is influenced by the show. But it most definitely stems from deep divide between my personal philosophy and the one that I feel is ingrained in the books.
@groglas
7 ай бұрын
If he's read the story as grimdark, I might say you've read it with rose-tinted glasses. The faith of the Seven is fundamentally gender divided, with very clear roles for men and women, it's influence is felt throughout the books (it being the catalyst for halting the sacrifices to the Others, you could argue they are the genesis of the entire story) not least by Brienne. Who even though she might pray to the Seven, is fundamentally in conflict with their teachings, and by extension with the larger society of Westeros, she is accepted by maybe a handfull of people, and only after having gone to great lengths to prove herself, the only exception seems to be her father (the man that always hired her singers because she loved their songs, and who allowed her to train as a knight, and sent her to join Renly), and we don't know if he would have been as accepting had he not lost his son Galladon (named after Galladon of Morne, the Perfect Knight), the only other family Brienne has any memory of, and for natural reasons idealizes. (i.e trauma to her and those around her when: 1, stillborn sister, 2, stillborn sister, 3, mother dies, and finally, 4, Galladon drowns, all this and she is only 4 years old) Brienne has spent her entire life trying to become Galladon, the Perfect Knight, the son her father should have had, because she wants to make her father (who obviously loves these stories too) happy, and in her mind she could never be the fair maiden... She is traumatized, and coping, and time after time she is learning that good vs bad is often a matter of perspective, and that honor, and oaths are false crutches, and that there can be no justice in an unjust world. Brienne undoubtedly influenced Jaime in many ways, not least when she recognizes that killing Aerys II was for the greater good, a perspective that might be easier for her to swallow than for regular dogmatics, but, Jaime is overtly being influenced by more mysterious forces also, it isn't until after his "fever dream" he goes back to rescue Brienne, a "dream" he has while sleeping in the moonlight, with his head on a Weirwood stump, to claim it is simply Brienne's goodness... Perhaps you're the one that has been more influenced by the show than you think...
@umwha
7 ай бұрын
@@groglas What exactly is the problem with the Faith being 'gender divided, with very clear roles for men and women'? That corelates to real history of Christianity, and sex role division is not inherently bad - in fact the institutions of convents were a great boon to historical women and a step toward female emancipation. The Faith operates almshouses and motherhouses - places for women to go with no other option. Septon Maribald is nice, and the quiet isle has female only accommodation. Is that bad?
@Fear_the_Nog
7 ай бұрын
Yes, this. Martin appears to be deeply idealistic. ASOIAF cannot be classified as grimdark. It's more a tragic heroic romance. It's more a Shakespearean tragedy than it is anything grimdark.
@Fear_the_Nog
7 ай бұрын
@@MagneMirare Personal goodness is and isn't capable of saving the world. It's both and neither. Because it obviously depends on the situation. That's Martin's point. It's neither smart to hold personal goodness as the only true solution to problems, nor is it smart to dispense with it. Which is why he is clearly setting up his most balanced characters like Tyrion and Bran and Varys, and even Jon to some extent to be flexible and manipulative enough in order to apply some pragmatism to goodness.
@wolfpacksix
7 ай бұрын
This is an outstanding analysis. I don't agree that the story cannot be finished, but I do see your point. I always took the A Song of Ice and Fire series to be a sort of commentary on the ultimately self-defeating futility of constant warfare (the "Game of Thrones") while ignoring existential threats (the Others/White Walkers/"Winter Is Coming"), with a small glimmer of hope coming from a few very flawed people who would somehow manage to put aside their differences at the last minute, deal with the threat, and then restore some kind of peace in the lands. I think that, that's still possible to do; but I think that there's the "meta" situation to keep in mind: George Martin has made his money and he's getting old: he has no incentive to finish the story and he is probably just getting mentally and physically (as well as spiritually) exhausted. On top of that, consider that popular culture has changed since the story started, and the "gritty, realistic" albeit extremely cynical things that caused the story to be so popular in the beginning (e.g., the shocking violence -- to include mutilation, torture, murder, and rape -- as well as exploring taboos such as incest) might open him up for the kind of intense criticism that he would rather not deal with. But yeah, having such a pointless nihilistic world-view probably contributes to his lack of drive. And maybe, as you said, not finishing the story is the most appropriate way to end it.
@antun88
Ай бұрын
I don't think he has a lack of drive. He understands how complex his task is, and he would rather leave it unfinished then do it badly. He also saw the disaster the TV show ending was.
@neongenesis7236
7 ай бұрын
Man: So , Sir Tolkien. Do you believe in flat or round earth? Tolkien: Yes
@falconeshield
7 ай бұрын
Tolkien do you hate Fashies? Tolkien: Yes I do Fashies: *NOO SAY IT AIN'T SO* True story
@TehZach1993
7 ай бұрын
@@falconeshield Wtf is a fashies?
@glenglen6386
7 ай бұрын
@@TehZach1993 It's an anagram of sea fish.
@supersuit5790
7 ай бұрын
Tolkien supported Franco, sooooo@@falconeshield
@wilburdemitel8468
7 ай бұрын
@@glenglen6386 schizo
@HellqueenRoz
7 ай бұрын
The point about Martin (and the show) writing a work that averts the "chosen hero" trope is fascinating to me. I think this is very clearly one of GRRM's beliefs and goals for the series but the story he crafts inadvertently undermines this authorial intention. People in A Song of Ice and Fire are, ultimately, meant to be normal, flawed people rather than chosen heroes born with a special destiny or marked for greatness by ancient prophecy. And yet, the books are full of characters who are very obviously possess superhuman capabilities. Daenerys can walk into a burning pyre and emerge unscathed, the Stark children are wargs and otherwise possessed of abilities all but forgotten south of the Wall. While these powers are not consistent (they seem to be capable of "skipping a generation" or not passing down to certain individuals, such as Viserys, who lacks Dany's fire resistance) they do very clearly and indisputably originate from blood lineage. Bran Stark, for example, is a warg *because he's a Stark*. While he has to improve on his skill and powers like any other skill, the mere ability to do it is something he and very few other people possess. I would argue that, while fascinating, this element of the story undermines the deconstruction of the chosen hero and also the story's emphasis on the injustice of Westerosi society. The story shows us again and again that being of the right bloodline or coming from a great house is no guarantee of greatness or moral virtue. Quite the contrary: many characters from great and powerful houses are arrogant, corrupt, and complacent in their power and wealth. But like, the Starks literally *can form telepathic bonds with and control animals or even humans* in a way that Lannisters or Tyrells or Baratheons cannot. It makes the Starks (and Targaryens and others who have such abilities) into something more than normal humans which undermines the theme of the story about being flawed, normal people trying to make do in a world of chaos and violence. It's hard to say that special destinies don't exist when they very clearly do.
@wesbaker2447
6 ай бұрын
Your point about the sharks is interesting. Yes, they are special in their way of warging, but that doesn’t break George’s theme of deconstructing heros. The starks arnt all great awesome people who arnt flawed and terrible at times. Yes they have powers, but George doesn’t argue their blood makes them morally supioror or better at ruling. Ned, for example was a good ruler because of moral fiber, not his warging abilities as he wasn’t a warg. Jon, who is special because he is a warg, makes questionable decisions as a heros and lord commander. He is a warg and still deconstructs the classic hero idea.
@annafdd
6 ай бұрын
Great point, although the special abilities of the Targareyns and Stark may well come from the fact that they are hybrids of the dragons and the Green men respectively.
@HellqueenRoz
5 ай бұрын
@@wesbaker2447 On that point I would definitely agree. The Starks are not *innately* superior in terms of morals. The morality (or immorality) of various Starks is shaped by upbringing, personal disposition, deliberate choice, surroundings, etc. In other words: the Starks are not destined to be any more or less moral than anybody else in the story but rather are shaped by their experiences and situations. So I completely agree there. Where I think GRRM arguably undermines some of his own points is the fact that the Starks' special abilities are very obviously and clearly derived from their blood. I think GRRM's story is, to some extent, meant to reject the idea of people who are marked by their birth and lineage for greatness. We can see aspects of this in the Lannisters and particular characters such as Joffrey. Joffrey comes from a prestigious bloodline (albeit with complications) but he's an arrogant, entitled monster who happily abuses his power and position at every opportunity. Joffrey is the villain we all love to hate, but he's also a representation of the themes of the series: that being from the "right bloodline" doesn't make you any innately better. Which is VERY much a prevalent theme in many fantasy works where being the "true king" or the like is literally informed by one's blood. In many classical fantasy tales, notably LotR: the right king is also generally understood to be the king with a true and legitimate lineage. I feel like the Starks *as characters* deconstruct the fantasy hero but the specifics of having special abilities from their blood undermines this somewhat because it kinda still inadvertently reinforces the idea of people from a particular lineage being marked by special powers that only they have. IMO it would work a little better in the story if maybe Northerners in general were shown as having some magic in their blood. Call it the lingering influence of the Old Gods or the strong legacy of the First Men, however you want to cut it. But as it stands, only one family in the entire North is able to do these things (one would think that at LEAST it might be a thing among say, the Karstarks who are canonically closely related to the Starks and descended from a Stark bloodline).
@HellqueenRoz
2 ай бұрын
@@annafdd Could be! But even if that were the case, that would not change the underlying issue IMO. Whatever the explanation for their abilities, the fact remains that Starks and Targaryens are, by virtue of blood alone, marked by special powers and abilities that they only get by being born to that particular bloodline. Lannisters, Baratheons, Martells, etc. can't see through the eyes of animals or walk through a rageing inferno unharmed. A lot of fantasy stories are prefaced on the idea of people marked by a special destiny. Because of who their ancestors were, or some special powers that only they have, or some ancient prophecy written long before the birth of this person, etc. this person is marked for greatness as someone who will change the face of the world. ASOIAF clearly tries to deconstruct the idea of the chosen hero by showing that prophecies are unreliable and often highly prone to misinterpretation. The identity of Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised is an open question with several prominent characters holding dramatically different views as to the identity of this individual. The problem with making the Starks and Targaryens special is that Martin undermines his own themes by doing so. It would make more sense for magic or the like to be a learned rather than a heritable trait. If Bran was no different than any other person but became a Warg because the Three-Eyed Raven taught him how to do so, that would make more sense. Because making Starks and Targaryens into special people with special powers possessed by few others in the world kinda turns them into the chosen hero trope.
@ratikantrout1865
2 ай бұрын
@@HellqueenRoz there are wargs and skinchangers in the books aside from the starks infact one of the worst people jon meets is a skin changer. I think grrm chosen heroes while they are destined to do great things but he loves to go in detail about the how of it. You can't simply write" after the war was over, the great king ruled wisely and the kingdom prospered and the end". Show him how the kingdom prospered after it has been bankrupted by the war, the people displaced,killed, homeless broken. How is the king going to fix all of that by staying noble,virtuous,honorable and all the qualities a hero typically should have. His books are fantasy but his world in it and the people are not.
@SpaceJawa
7 ай бұрын
"Martin is trying to be a gardener in the Amazon." Loved this bit.
@HanzGibbler
7 ай бұрын
Am I the only ASOIAF fan who finds hope and meaning in his various stories and characters?
@maicoxmauler2825
7 ай бұрын
No, you're not. George doesn't. That's the problem.
@sullivandmitry1416
6 ай бұрын
The author doesn’t. It’s the same for Cormac McCarthy and his books like The Road. People see the story as hope and inspiration, but he manages to write it with the plot making absolute sure that no one will be alive in 20 years. Hope all you want, it won’t matter.
@AS-qy1zl
3 ай бұрын
I can’t see any story without some hope. It’s a human universal that there will always be some who have hope just as there are wickeds.
@assortmentofpillsbutneverb3756
2 ай бұрын
Nope, you can actually get a lot of hermeticism from the books using black magic vs white magic to characters. You end up with: white magic weaker in the short game, but black magic (power generally through corrupt means) leads to destruction and your own downfall. The ending could use characters like Jon to circle back towards white magic (power generally from good or pure sources) guns in the long run. George just won't. He is too cynical to circle the series back in 2 books
@donjuanmckenzie4897
2 ай бұрын
It really all depends on what George wants to happen from here. We are poised to wrap up the last human political plotlines and finally get on to the conclusion of the grand narrative. Martin can either give it a good ending that gives meaning to all the loss and struggle over the course of the narrative or just *an* end that simply narratively ties a bow around the story.
@antun88
Ай бұрын
I disagree that Martin is just an empty postmodern nihilist. He clearly paints Starks as being good and virtuous and Lannisters as corrupted. But he makes the claim that being virtuous is not enough, you still have to know how to play the game of thrones, or you will die regardless of your pure heart. This is an old american trope, dirty harry kind of thing. Additionally, another relatively modern trope (still deeply christian), is that no one is corrupted by nature, or beyond redemption (like orcs for example). They have been hurt in the past etc... So in ASOIAF you either have bad buys (Tyrion, Jamie) trying to redeem themselves or good guys learning the "game" but still trying to remain virtuous (Sansa, Arya).
@christophergaffney3804
Ай бұрын
This video would be better if he proved many of his points with context rather than just saying stuff and not showing any evidence
@Guremien
23 күн бұрын
I disagree. There are no good or bad heroes in the saga.
@KingSolomonJedidiah
17 күн бұрын
@@christophergaffney3804 Yeah this whole video felt like "postmodernist stories bad!" without showing how asoiaf is one or how a postmodernist book is intrinsically unfinishable in the first place.
@AlexanderofMiletus
6 ай бұрын
"no complex world can prevail if it lacks underlying mythological value" You have me already
@JdJd-w9p
Ай бұрын
"He who break a thing to find out how it works has left the path of wisdom"
@matthewatwood8641
7 ай бұрын
People kept comparing him to Tolkien when the series came out. I kept tellin' 'em...
@muddlewait8844
7 ай бұрын
Very thoughtful analysis. It’s ironic: I see ASOIAF as Martin’s attempt to take up the challenge Tolkien declined when he abandoned his LOTR follow-up, and now, hearing your view, I see Martin finding himself in Tolkien’s position: unwilling or unable to find a reason to complete that challenge.
@thisishawkman
Ай бұрын
Tolkien already forseen the topic is doom from the start. Even if he had done it, he could have just made a thriller and it would've been just that, diminising his intergrity.
@jeidafei1165
Ай бұрын
Latecomer but thank you so much for this video. I found some success on Wattpad (pause for derisive laughter from the crowd) with my fantasy story, but I'm constantly plagued with doubt because of this post-modern mentality brought about by GoT and its many grimdark wannabes. That affected both me and many readers/consumers of media. Whenever I read comments from readers throwing memes, references, or making cynical predictions, instead of facing the emotion of the scenes, I fear I might be deemed naive, cheesy, sappy, overly optimistic when I try to write about themes of hope, honor, sacrifice, trust, kindness, friendship, and compassion over violence. In the grim dry reality of today's society, how out of touch must I sound? I started my story precisely because I want wholesome epics to be a thing again. But in the GoT craze of the 2020s, stories like that are scarce. So I was drawn instead to a series I once scoffed at for being too optimistic, the Lord of the Rings. And I just fell in love, and found direction for my own story. I'm rambling but in short, your video gives me confidence to write with sincerity, and that every story needs a truth, a logic or a core message in order to function. You cannot communicate anything if you destroy everything. You also cannot be everything and still convey something. There needs to be a rule your story adheres to.
@santrow1
Ай бұрын
"Every story needs a truth, a logic or a core message in order to function" "You cannot communicate anything if you destroy everything" "You also cannot be everything and still convey something. There needs to be a rule your story adheres to." These need to to be rules for writting epics like these. You can have great characters, great moments and great ideas. But if you don't have the fundamentals right, it's all going to collapse in itself sooner or later. Never let those cynic statements undermine the sincerity of your message and your story. We NEED more honest, inspiring, uplifting and epic stories in these times of turnoil and confusion. The modern world (or at least good part of it) it's the one that is out of touch with REALITY, neglecting it's foundations, myths and values. When you take in consideration that, It's almost a DUTY if you have the talent and desire to make story yourself. We need more wholesome epics. I myself am struggling to work on my own story and ideas to make it an epic into a comic, but it really does take it's time and patience. But having the right vision and recognizing it with authors like Tolkien (and Martin to some extent) gives you almost absolute reassurance for what you're doing. Nothing's completely settled yet, but there's definitely a vision. Gotta check out what you're doing, seems interesting. Hope you keep it up!
@CantusTropus
7 ай бұрын
At the current state things are in, the only ending that would be tonally consistent with the rest of the story would be having the White Walkers win.
@donjuanmckenzie4897
2 ай бұрын
No, I don't think so. In fact, a good ending is the only way to give catharsis to all the tragic elements of the story.
@donovan4222
2 ай бұрын
I’d read that
@ImperfectWeapons
7 ай бұрын
The purpose of art isn't to merely recreate life, but to carve away the trivial and distill life down into only what is meaningful. Muddying things up with Gondor's tax policy does not create sophistication, it just makes things unfocused. The juice is half pulp.
@V_i_vi_an
7 ай бұрын
You do not dictate what art is.
@MCArt25
7 ай бұрын
The funny thing about that quip is that Martin's worldbuilding is actually quite inconsistent and betrays an ignorance of premodern society not present in Tolkien, who was capable of inferring quite a lot from his own deep knowledge of medieval literature.
@ionbing2884
7 ай бұрын
Gondor's tax policy would have huge implications for...Gondorians/Gondorites and would reflect the moral values of their government especially their king. There is no reason tax policies cannot and should not be important plot points. The problems is that GRRM is a bad writer.
@Miraihi
6 ай бұрын
I don't agree at all. Putting the familiar concepts into another world operating by another set of rules adds to the immersion and the sheer physicality of the fictional world immensely.
@yokunjon
3 ай бұрын
But having someone random becoming a king that people absolutely follow without second thought is somehow all-meaningful? I love Tolkien and Tolkien's worldbuilding, but nothing is black and white, so it isn't the only way to write a story. It is all about trade-off, different styles focus on different aspects. ASOIAF is popular because people were sick of Tolkien copycat stories that are based on fights of heroes and absolute evils. In that sense, ASOIAF represents medieval times and human behaviour better, people still fighting eachother while there is obvious threat on the horizon.
@OrixDalgrath
8 ай бұрын
You know, even at the time I was in love with ASoIaF the most, I thought there was something off. About a decade later, there is a KZitemr to formulate it pretty well. Good job and I hope you get more subs soon.
@MagneMirare
8 ай бұрын
Yeah, I know what you mean. At that time the series hype went high and I was not a very good reader at the time. It took me until now to somewhat decode the philosophical pitfalls plaguing the books. Thanks.
@billjones3963
7 ай бұрын
I’ve always hated that people feel a story needs to have a moral or point. It reduces the story to just moral grandstanding in my mind. I like that his characters don’t follow tropes and their arcs change because that’s real, people don’t have clear arcs in their lives. And the world mythology is very grand. I see no reason to downplay it just because we don’t know the specifics and it’s original source was a bit dry.
@MagneMirare
7 ай бұрын
@@billjones3963 Well stories are vessels for meaning. The point is always present in some sense - it doesn’t need to be explicitly stated and it doesn’t need to be moral. It may very well be something as simple as “here is the mundane realism of someone's life”. That still is the point of the author. You can’t as an author create without point - without meaning. Even the most dadaistic absurd piece of art is still embodiment of its own statement. The world is not lacking mythology, in sense that it has mythologized history - The books contain mythology. But they themself aren’t one. Lord of the ring is mythology in itself. Now I am not pointing to this as something that makes the books bad. I like them. I am just showing that the very same design we like and find compelling, is the reason why Martin may probably never finish it.
@fuzzzone
7 ай бұрын
@@MagneMirare "Well stories are vessels for meaning." That's an opinion, a perspective, even a highly typical tendency, but not an absolute rule.
@LordVader1094
7 ай бұрын
@@billjones3963 If a story has no point, one questions why it exists at all.
@YoungMatt81
Ай бұрын
I think this is pretty ridiculous. Martin has been a storyteller since he was a child. His goal was, similar to tolkien, to create a world with a rich history. Unlike Tolkien, he chooses to write a darker, hopeless type of world because that's what he likes, that's the story he wants to write. He has been very vocal about his struggles with writing after book 3. He even had plans and ideas for the next book taking place 4-5 years after the end of book 3, which he scrapped. That kind of fruitless effort could have zapped his will. He seems to have no issue writing prequel work. I think he has painted himself into a corner with the legacy novel and truly isn't sure how to make it work. Lastly, we need to remember George was mainly a short story or novella author, this work is gargantuan in comparison. He could, like the show could have done, minimize the subversion and coast on tropes and cliches till the end and it will stand up as an amazing work, as long as the scope remains epic.
@AlvorReal
7 ай бұрын
I have two, perhaps not disagreements, but counter points. Firstly, and something you danced around but did not quite get at, is that Martin does not actually have principles at all. That may sound a but absurd, but everything he believes in a spiritual, political, and philosophical level is a rejection of something else. He affirms nothing, denies everything, and so can not say anything meanful. Secondly, deconstruction is useless if it results only in an analysis. It must be able to contribute to reconstruction and reconciliation or it is a waste of time and breath - as all the knowledge in the world is so much air if it does not contribute to something.
@ghgtare
6 ай бұрын
To say that GRRM, the man who wrote Brienne of Tarth, "does not actually have principles" is to say that you know nothing about the man or his work.
@dszuch1084
6 ай бұрын
@@ghgtareuh huh. Take his little pinky out of your mouth.
@gamer1X12
2 ай бұрын
Yup. Post modernists will deconstruct all day long... Ask them to construct or RE-construct, and they'll often stare at you with a blank face. PM is the intellectual equivalent of having worked at McDonalds for 30 years. It's tired, washed up, and burnt out. I'm so over it tbh.
@reuvenpolonskiy2544
7 ай бұрын
The most important thing in a phantasy story is the question regarding the economic policy of the king and how he dealt with climate change.
@Zeupater
6 ай бұрын
I get the impression you had your criticism ready before you read the books, if you read them. I’m not convinced you did. And your rhetorical devices are flawed. You don’t have to have perfect knowledge to learn from deconstruction. Martin isn’t cynical. He doesn’t deconstruct hope. And he doesn’t pose that peace is always preferable to war. Maybe this is why I get the feeling you didn’t read the books. It’s a Song of Ice and Fire. You seem to have missed that point entirely. And Tolkien didn’t get lost in the Silmarillion? He never finished it because he kept rewriting it. The very reason it wasn’t published in his life because he ‘got lost’ in it.
@baronmunro1494
6 ай бұрын
I think you could benefit from looking at youtubers who go in depth to what Martin is foreshadowing in the series. It's dark, yes, but absolutely no where near as nihilistic sounding as what you're talking about.
@mobbs6426
7 ай бұрын
Boobs, blades and dragons are enough to get geeks through the door, but we stay for character, analogy, and plot. When that falls apart, we burn the house down on the way out.
@eurolicious1
Ай бұрын
George is the laziest writer ever! And he’s a complete jerk! It would be fine if he admitted he would never finish the books but he continuously lies about finishing the books. He does this so that more people will buy his books. Of course, he could get a ghost writer to finish the books, but his ego won’t allow that. So instead, what could be one of the greatest fantasy series of all time will go down as a sign of our times… A man who got sucked into celebrity And decided to just give it all up and wallow in his wealth. Greatest fantasy writer of all time… No, just a really sad “what could’ve been”
@TarpeianRock
7 ай бұрын
We keep forgetting that HBO’s only focus was and is Profit, it hasn’t any artistic nor philosophical aspirations.
@undeathmetal1717
6 ай бұрын
Then surely they should have recognized that profit comes from great things that people want; rather than horrid meaninglessness.
@TarpeianRock
6 ай бұрын
@@undeathmetal1717you have a point of course but have a look at the trash that is produced by TV channels : the output of really bad material vastly outweighs quality products. Making trash seems to be the default setting for TV material. If they can get away with making trash that is cheap they will do that.
@magikman481
6 ай бұрын
@@undeathmetal1717 you should see the videos of crowds in bars reacting to later game of thrones episodes. no subtitles so you cant hear the dialogue, and they cheered during the petyr baelish death scene despite it being a bastardisation of the character of littlefinger. Intricate storylines dont sell, fire dragons and big expensive battles sell
@bethje30
7 ай бұрын
Wow yes thank you. I always felt this, I never finished Game of Thrones nor the House of the Dragon because they are so incredibly depressing. I don't need to see Oberryn get his face smashed in nor do I need to see a boy getting pulled to shreds by a dragon. Why? The heroes keep dying! It's terrible. I know his writing is supposed to reflect reality but even our world has some hope, acts of greatness and kindness. During the war of the roses great acts of cruelty where commonplace but honour as well. Humans come with this darkness and light in them, Tolkien took this fact and built a world around it. Martin seems to concentrate on just the dark.
@shorewall
7 ай бұрын
Also, I think we need hope and idealism to strive to a better reality. It's the difference between aiming for the stars and landing on the rooftop, vs. aiming for the rooftop and landing in the alleyway.
@falconeshield
7 ай бұрын
It's funny. Hero used to be mean divine birth back in Ancient Greece times. Now it means noble stuff against all odds
@Diego-sb1bw
3 ай бұрын
I love asoiaf, but i don't like the fact that it is edgy as hell
@InvertedWIng
7 ай бұрын
Martin should have focused on telling a straightforward story with a beginning, middle, and end instead of trying to deconstruct EVERY fantasy trope and convention under the sun just to show everyone how SMRT and superior to Tolkien he is.
@nothingtoseehere8771
6 ай бұрын
In a way ASOIAF not ending is kind of the perfect ending for it. For a series of despair with no hope or satisfaction leaving the audience hanging with no resolution is very fitting. Not that Martin intended for that to be the case of course, but it is funny how it worked out that way.
@Dinaazem91
4 ай бұрын
My thoughts exactly 👍
@johannesvanderbeck3276
2 ай бұрын
Very good album in your pfp
@KossolaxtheForesworn
7 ай бұрын
as a gardener my self with a degree on it (finally i can flex) I think the metaphor is very accurate. as task would be to create human order out of natures chaos and then maintain this order. there is never a point where one can sit back and actually enjoy the garden, only to stand up and observe where is the next problem to be corrected. it is all a great cycle of work. but his garden is just all over the place. his flowerbeds might not have weeds but the flowers bloom all at different times and half wont survive the winter, decision that was only driven solely because he happened to like how they looked, not by how it all looks like in the end. it is like he is entertaining ideas and disregarding them once he looses interest. which does not create order or controlled chaos, but rather merely a new chaos. if his books were a rose bush, it would be wild and festering thing that would be better dug out and tossed than corrected. he is definitely not André Le Nôtre thats for sure. he would be more suited to scrub slime out of the fountains.
@kalifogg6610
19 күн бұрын
My MIL loves to grow flowers, especially irises, she has irises that have followed her half way across the country and she’s had bulbs for possibly thirty years. I once asked her why she didn’t lay down mulch to prevent weeds growing as her knees are bad and she explained that the mulch would rot the roots and bulbs. She hasn’t found a solution yet, but she loves to be outside with her flowers.
@TheNotoriousCompa93
11 күн бұрын
The fact that a lot of ASOIAF fans are coping in this comments section of a small channel video shows conclusively how consumed they are with the actual reality of things, which is that they will never have an end to the book they love and that this not having an ending actually has reasons and it is not that the planets aligned to keep him from writing it, but it is mostly his own doing.
@ianmaluk1
5 ай бұрын
Even the original Warhammer and 40K had the vain slimmer of hope in the settings. Think about that, two settings that were made to be as bleak as possible had what A Song of Ice and Fire lacks.
@j3fr0uk
Ай бұрын
And 40k has been stagnant for decades. Granted a few recent books have given us hope but in the grand scheme of it all, story hasn't gone anywhere...
@JawaPenguin16
Күн бұрын
@@j3fr0uk No incentive for GamesWorkshop to really push the story anywhere forward. When they do, the die hard fans just rage at them for stagnating from tradition. The fans are the real Mechanicus lol.
@randomcenturion7264
7 ай бұрын
In the end, cynicism is the snarky, scoffing voice frequently chiding, "How childish, I could do better." Then when it finally gets a chance, it dreams big, admittedly, then devolves into shock horror, vulgarity and then pisses about not getting to an ending because, well when nothing matters, it's hard to leave an impactful ending, isn't it? Because by the end of this, who's going to care?
@MagneMirare
7 ай бұрын
Peterson said something very interesting. Cynicism is a good step from naivety. But it's only one step, not the end of the road.
@nicholauscrawford7903
7 ай бұрын
I don't usually presume to say I could do better, but if something is no good I can usually think of at least a dozen other people who could, in fact, do better.
@basedchimera5859
6 ай бұрын
Feast for crows is genuienly very thematically cohesive. Great read
@trollfacemafiagaming6036
3 ай бұрын
Dance would have been good as well if the end it was building towards wasn't shifted to winds
@basedchimera5859
3 ай бұрын
@@trollfacemafiagaming6036 and most of tyrions story had terrible pacing
@nomex9829
2 ай бұрын
Your video offers the most intelligent critique by far. Yes GRRM is probably driven by what excites him the most and, compared to other writers, lacks focus and discipline. If that is true, howeveer, why does his magnum opus not excite him sufficiently to finish those two last books? As you said: because there is no point to it. All is human vanity, despair and depression. The atmosphere in the North or the Riverlands is close to what living through the War of the Roses and the Thirty Years War must have felt like. There was no upside to any of this, no salvation, no lesson to be learned. Personally, I first mistook GRRM's work as Punk; as being irreverent to mythical themes as those found in Tolkien. "The Bear and the Maiden fair" is a fantastic folk punk song. It feels perfect for the show when it's played after one of the early season 3 episodes. Making fun of established rules is great as long as there are rules; really anything author and audience can follow. But season 4 razes the whole building. Tywin's death seales the story's fate. If there ever was any doubt, Tywin is exposed as the cynical, self-serving liar his children had accused him to be. Love, competence, family, tradition, hope: all dead, all the dreams we had. With GRRM, we could enter the long winter night, never to emerge again. In such a universe, where is hope supposed to come from? A real spring instead of another false prophecy?
@blondie2978
7 ай бұрын
7:15 If you actually read the series you would be well aware just how intricate he writes ASOIAF. His wheelhouse is writing kingdoms, policies, and the story is centered around a crown in constant freefall. I shouldn't have to point out the glaringly obvious elements of his "values" in, for example, Jon Snow's death and his story leading up to it, but somebody has to, you and everyone else here sure as hell can't figure it out. Doing the right thing is often times the hardest thing in the world to do. Jon paid that price when he broke an oath; an oath that meant nothing compared to the threat of Ramsay Bolton from within and the unknown threats from without. Everyone should have ridden south. But no. They decided pride in their oaths were more important than the right thing, more important than Jon Snow, and killed him for it. His reaction? He couldn't believe how stupid they were. How they were going to allow everything to go to shit and allow more suffering and death over a few words. He even told them they didn't all *have* to go if they didn't want to. They still killed him anyway. Ned Stark's execution is also indicative of this value, which you would get if. You know. You actually read the book. Which you clearly didn't. I'm sorry to burst everyone beating off into their own mouths over how much "better" they are for not liking something they falsely attribute to being lazy cynicism, but I'm tired of hearing this regurgitated trash by people that can't or refuse to read and just coast off of everyone else's retarded take, just stick to whatever booktok hocks at you and leave these books well the fuck alone.
@powertomato
7 ай бұрын
In my opinion, his works strongly point towards one ending. The prayer to the many faced god is to be taken literally: "all men must die". The happenings in the north could only be overcome if all the kingdoms would work together, yet they are not, as the books clearly imply. The ending I see is the houses war-ing as they always do and the whites attacking from the north. A selected few protagonists realize the futility of it all and flee further south where the whites cannot reach. Then depending whether you want a happy ending they succeed doing so or don't. All the others die in the long winter. As the magic system in the books is soft, he does not need to tie all loose ends.
@laurashortill8623
6 ай бұрын
Yes. If I recall correctly that GRRM said if he had to pick a God to worship, it would be death, I knew it would that the series would likely be unfulfilling for me. I expect it will end like Fire and Blood, which I find unsatisfying. I liked season 1 of House of the Dragon because the adaptation changed Viserys’ story into a more Aristotelian tragedy rather than a relentless parade of unlikeable people doing unspeakable things stopping at a random point.
@KronetHjort
Ай бұрын
This critique sounds like it is rooted in southern baptist philosophy, though that may be coincidental
@maggyfrog
7 ай бұрын
the glaring problem with this critique is the fact that george already has an ending that he envisioned since first drafting the first book. the real actual problem is how to tie the other 100 subplots to his main ending with the same breadth and depth as the peaks of asoiaf so far. he's told for years now that he has an ending, but the way there is the difficult task. this is not about "lack of myth" or cynicism. this is a problem about balancing the "architect vs gardener". there is a plan, but that plan now needs to fit the entire jungle that started out as a flowerbed.
@TRENCHESandTREADS
7 ай бұрын
Or he could just be lying about having an ending lol. George lies *a lot* by the by.
@maggyfrog
7 ай бұрын
@@TRENCHESandTREADS the way people like you project their ideas and utter cynicism is just pathetic.
@clownpendotfart
7 ай бұрын
@@TRENCHESandTREADS He told Benioff & Weiss. They could let us know if he didn't really have an ending.
@LordVader1094
7 ай бұрын
@@clownpendotfart We've been told he told them. And there's no proof he's sticking to that ending, now that it was so bad in the show's finale.
@clownpendotfart
7 ай бұрын
@@LordVader1094 He's never going to finish the books, so you'll never get any ending other than the one in the show.
@DenisBourveau
Ай бұрын
He is more of a historiographer of his world rather than an omnipresent writer. The story flows much more naturally when nothing is truly in synergy. For the sake of beauty and art I hope he doesn't provide a finale to his books. We need more characters, more events, more locations to fuel our own imaginations rather than be provided with an ultimate conclusion
@HariKrishnan-kx1is
7 ай бұрын
Sorry but no. He is not a cynic or a nihilist. He's an idealist with practical concerns about idealism. There is so much hope and inspiration in his stories if you look for it. It just doesn't come in the way we are used to. He is very balanced about mysticism and God. The subverting expectations expectations thing is more of a show thing than the books. Martin is a master of hidden foreshadowing not subverting expectations. It is very much a finishable story, he has just given himself multiple ways to finish it. It's not that he can't finish it's just that he doesn't seem to have the spark that he started with.
@jackelinevalladares7118
7 ай бұрын
Thank you for this, it is very accurate. The thing that happens with his stories is that people get absorbed on the tragedy and the moral issues and darkness that resides in human nature and his universe. But there is so much hope, so many characters that portray his concept of a hero= a dreamer that fights the good fight. The effort is what matters, if it doesn't end well to the hero, he/she is still one. Every human being has a struggle.
@HariKrishnan-kx1is
7 ай бұрын
@@jackelinevalladares7118 I never got the sense that there are no heroes in his stories or that heroism is useless or bad. It is more like the heroes are not the people you would normally expect. And the people who think of themselves as heroes are usually not. Septon Meribald is a hero. Robert Baratheon is not. And sometimes heroic actions can have terrible consequences like Barristan saving Aerys. People are just really salty about him critiquing Tolkien, but conveniently forget that he is a massive Tolkien fan. It is only natural for an artist to think deeply about something that you love, and give it your own personal touch. Otherwise, he would just be another Tolkien clone. Tolkien himself critiqued other authors all the time, but it was academic scrutiny, not some personal vendetta. I wish people would give George the same liberty.
@stefankatsarov5806
7 ай бұрын
What has he writen about god or goodnes. Why is religion barely a thing in his books, why are all of his characters very non religious, why are most of the honoroable and good characters in his books killed off. How is he an idealist when anyone who is like that gets shafted by a bad guy.
@HariKrishnan-kx1is
7 ай бұрын
@@stefankatsarov5806 Religion is all over the books dude. It's just not front and center like when you can actually see the gods or angels. The Old Gods are a central theme of the book. The Drowned God features prominently in the Ironborn chapters. The Faith is a very powerful religious and political entity. There are so many different types of Gods that I couldn't even list them all here. There are several times in the books where the main characters find solace in prayer. And there are many religious characters like the monks at Fair Isle and Septon Meribald who are doing the work of God even when all the odds are against them. They are written as admirable characters, not religious fools. He is an idealist in the sense that he knows there are certain ideals that human beings should aspire to, but there are also other human beings who will use your ideals against you. That does not mean you give up those ideals though. For example even though Ned dies and people call him an honourable fool, his honour helps his children survive after he dies. People in the North have so much respect for Ned that they are willing to give up their lives to save his children. Idealism has consequences, both good and bad, and Martin explores that very well I think.
@nont18411
6 ай бұрын
@@HariKrishnan-kx1is “Ned’s honor helps his children survive after he dies. People in the North have so much respect for Ned that they are willing to give up lives to save his children.” You mean like when The Boltons (who are in the North) betrayed and murdered Robb and Catelyn in the red wedding? Or Ramsay raping a girl he understood to be Arya? Or when the the rest in the North chose to help the Boltons put down any sign of pro-Stark rebellion because they’re such cowards that they would rather keep themselves alive than fighting for the Starks that they swore loyalty to? Or when the Night’s Watch murdered Jon because they’re afraid that Jon would put them at war against the Boltons? Yeah, so much for the Northern respect and loyalty here.
@yllejord
5 ай бұрын
As infuriating as that author/gardener analogy was to me when I first saw it some years ago (this is NOT how gardening works!!), it did explain Martin's failure instantly. Not only the doomed method, but also the arrogance that stopped him from seeing this.
@solidpython4964
6 ай бұрын
I don’t see how GRRM is nihilistic, nor that there’s anything wrong with being postmodern, nor anything wrong with not finishing a series.
@Corsharkgaming
6 ай бұрын
I think some people genuinely don't understand that Nihilism and Cynicism are two different concepts.
@basedchimera5859
6 ай бұрын
Hes a humanist i think
@HYDRAdude
7 ай бұрын
A solid critique, well said. Martin is a product of his generation and when he first started writing this series it looked as if his generation could do no wrong and would achieve a sort of ultimate victory. Now, decades later we see the promises of his generation have not only gone unfulfilled but have only served to make the future worse. Martin knows this, which is why he can't finish his series because he knows the original premise that he set to prove with his writing has proven to be a lie and a failure. Martin's generation is very stubborn and narcissistic (which is one of the reasons why they have failed us so), as such he will never openly admit his defeat opting to instead leave his work unfinished.
@antiochus87
Ай бұрын
While I agree with some of your points, some of your other points are very far off the mark, and I think treat GRR Martin very unfairly. I'm not defending him regarding the fact he's failed to finish the series, but some of your analysis of the man himself is simplistic and borderline insulting. 1. Much of mythology and literature is in fact cynical and deconstructionist, so there is a basis for that approach. You have complex and morally grey characters like Gilgamesh, the folly and downfall of every Greek hero, the ending of Ragnarok and the tragic end of Maui, the hero of mankind on Polynesian mythology to name but a few. There are also numerous other works that show that this approach is not just gratuitous but s foundation of literature. You have Don Quixote, which deconstructs the Medieval chivalric romance genre (which is essentially Arthurian and similar stories, and that is considered one of, if not the greatest, novel of all time. There are also numerous plays by Shakespeare and his contemporaries that are bleak and violent, with plots and plot threads you can easily imagine in the darker parts of ASOIAF, with endings that make the Red Wedding seem like a cheerful affair. While the story is (and likely will remain) unfinished, it's also unfair to assume the type of ending planned or how hopeful or cynical, (and how fitting) that might be. The fact that the story as of the last book is probably approaching the darkest point in the story does not reflect any planned tone for the ending. 2. While subversion of expectation for the sake of shock is something that is all too common in fiction writing nowadays (literature as well as TV and film), it is not something found in GRR Martin's work. It's pretty clearly set up which characters are important and which are not, and which have fatal flaws, and which are on a tragic path. Many of GRR Martin's protagonists have these, and at least in hindsight you can see the breadcrumbs of foreshadowing are all there. Martin did not invent this "anyone can die", and that too is as old as mythology. If you can't see the value in that as a legitimate style of storytelling then you've been coddled. Whether you like something or not is different from whether you see value in it, so do not confuse that. 3. ASOIAF is clearly a critique (among many other things) of the fantasy genre, as shaped by Lord of the Rings. JRR Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings as a kind of English mythology as you mentioned, but the overly idealistic and generally simplistic good versus evil owes more to his Catholicism and Medieval chivalric romances than to the complex polytheistic mythology of competing gods and and tragic heroes of European mythology. It's actually kind of ironic how you refer to the different origins of ASOIAF and and Fire and Ice. Those elements play a large part in Norse mythology at the beginning and ending of time, and by extension we can assume in ancient Germanic and Anglo-Saxon mythology, and with Ragnarok hanging over the head of the world. There are a lot of references to Norse mythology in ASOIAF, so we can assume that Martin has at least a passing knowledge of the topic. This does not make a subversion of mythological essence at all. I am a huge fan of Tokien, but the aping of its themes and aethetics and philosophy wholesale and the simplistic good versus evil in much of modern fantasy is a major flaw. Then, to have supposedly knowledgeable purists claim that mythology and ancient literature was so hopefully, is just plain wrong. If anything ASOIAF can be interpreted (for better or for worse) in the light of Gilgamesh, the Iliad, Titus Adronicus, Hamlet, Don Quixote and many more. It is in this tradition that ASOIAF can trace its literary heritage, and that heritage speaks more truth to power and is generally considered of more artistic value than the state-sanctioned glorification of knighthood, feudalism pious reverence and power structures. That's not to say ASOIAF lives up to this heritage, or lives up to those goals. I personally thinks it doesn't take somethings far enough (getting caught up in unnecessary complexity, obsession over dynasties and their backstories and navel gazing, not representing certain views - seriously, where are commoners in all of this?), but it also deserves credit where its due. I don't see it being finished now, but that's more to do with GRR Martin and less to do with that being an impossible task. Difficult and time consuming? Yes. Impossible? No. Martin has just been procrastinating and distracted by other projects. At this point he just needs to he honest and fully commit to it if he is willing and capable, or throw up his hands and admit he won't or can't, and maybe accept help from another writer to edit and complete his story.
@Insanir
Ай бұрын
People just could read Malazan Book of the Fallen (a few times) instead. It is finished.
@jimluebke3869
7 ай бұрын
There's a non-zero chance that the streaming show was completely faithful to his outline for the ending. He can't finish it, because of how much people hated it.
@solidpython4964
6 ай бұрын
There is a zero percent chance of this lol
@higginswalsan
3 ай бұрын
There is a 100% chance. GoT fans are actually stupid because they thought Daenerys would be their hecking wholesome Reddit queen. I called the ending in the first episode.
@trollfacemafiagaming6036
3 ай бұрын
There's a 0% chance of this since like characters integral to the end or atleast several other characters arcs were never in the show you can also pretty much plot out what the first 1/3 of winds of winter would be from where everything leaves off
@donovan4222
2 ай бұрын
That’s complete speculation, and also….people hated the show because they rushed at least 3 seasons worth of plot and character developments into 3 episodes. The ending wasn’t bad because of where the characters ended up, it was bad because it didn’t do the leg work and build up to get there…I’m willing to bet that’s what George is working on
@jimluebke3869
2 ай бұрын
@@donovan4222 Why are you putting your faith in a nihilist? Seems like a pretty bad idea, by definition.
@salomaobulgaro
3 ай бұрын
Martin is like a Postmodern Architect: he wants to be rebellious, he is utilitarian, he is materialist and he makes works of ugliness to (ironically) represent his twisted inner self as a good thing
@anathimatandela1195
Ай бұрын
This is such a brilliant way to put it
@wanderinghistorian
7 ай бұрын
Holy crap you quoted, "Fire and Ice," my favorite poem. I rarely see that one quoted. Cheers!
@Koskneds
Ай бұрын
Imagine if the Lord of the Rings was never finished at the nigh arrival of the Rohirrim.
@yung_naerdowell
7 ай бұрын
i feel that this comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of george and his themes, he holds no reverence for systems of power but to claim that he is a thoroughly cynical writer is untrue. Asoiaf is constantly imbuing its characters with hope that they can rise about the systems of power that subjugate them. every pov character is in some way shunned by society and they manage to maintain their agency despite this. it’s why Robb stark was never a POV character. in actual rhetoric, asoiaf is far more hopeful and optimistic about the good in people than any of tolkiens work
@gemwilliams6486
7 ай бұрын
I couldn’t agree more. Watching this video and reading so many of the comments has been making me feel insane because hope is very obviously everywhere in the story and that’s why I fuck with it so hard. I think some people see his destruction of the status quo and traditional archetypes as nihilistic for some reason and I don’t see how that’s the case unless they think traditional archetypes and the status quo have to exist for some reason. Idk, must be typical Jordan Peterson fan logic 🤷🏾
@yung_naerdowell
7 ай бұрын
@@gemwilliams6486 shouldve seen the petersonian influence, what a fool I am. Post modern neo marxist writer GRRM is too worried about destroying our beloved western culture and is thus a cynical and nihilistic fraud. Ave to Jordan, I cried 4 times while writing this
@arthurr.r.lucasspublicdoma5621
7 ай бұрын
@@gemwilliams6486He referenced Peterson in one of the comments
@gemwilliams6486
7 ай бұрын
@@arthurr.r.lucasspublicdoma5621 I saw that and I immediately thought “that explains a lot about this video” lol.
@gemwilliams6486
7 ай бұрын
@@yung_naerdowell isn’t it wild to see someone try to judge/analyze a story using bullshit “philosophy” that was created by a disgraced, washed up psychologist or whatever that spent years of his life and career fucked up on massive amounts of benzodiazepines lmao
@lukailincic2411
7 ай бұрын
Gosh you people... ASOIAF doesn't need a didactically conclusive ending in my opinion. I understand that Martin is trying to critique power, and that's in there for sure, but the work as a whole doesn't belong solely to that idea, and I'm fine with that. The point to me is ABOUT the spectacle, the tension, perhaps the resolution of tension can be in affirming it, in affirming a world of tension and change and chaos. That would be a more fitting ending to ASOIAF to me than an ending that "stays true to the essence of mythology," whatever that's supposed to mean. You people really don't understand postmodernism, which is why you'll always be bad at critiquing it. You're just attached at the hip to your conservative western ideas. I'm not sure what's going on in Martin's head tho, if he's conflicted about the same thing. It's hard to affirm the world as is and not seek an idealistic escape, but that would not fit the story. And not every story needs an ending like that. PS: on the "essence of myth" - there are plenty of stories from mythology that don't espouse a moral virtue, or exalt one idea above others. Ragnarok is probably one of the best examples, it simply shows the ending of one cycle and the beginning of the other, there are no heroes and villains, everyone dies in the end. Also a lot of eastern myths. Not every myth sees tension and change as something bad or a mere stepping stone towards some glorious ideal. And they work just fine. Stop cherry-picking history.
@thesinfultictac5704
7 ай бұрын
Good Critique. The Author of the video is blow hard.
@mildlydazed9608
7 ай бұрын
I consider the Song of Ice and Fire as one of the more frustrating book series of my life. If George had seen success earlier in life he'd have likely finished the series by now but he went from a normal person to super star over the course of a couple years then it got to his head and he wants to enjoy as much of life as he can at his advanced age. I've not picked up the books in 5 years now as picking them up is a reminder of how this world sits abandoned
@kolyadante1728
3 ай бұрын
I think at least in terms of subversion of traditional fantasy, it's possible to do what Martin's trying. Joe Abercrombie's 'First Law' series springs to mind as a comparison with a similar tone, similar theme, but ultimately less vindictive towards the tropes it subverts, and less ambitious in its subversion. Rather than trying to postmodernise himself into a new dimension where no ending can possibly suffice because things ending is a fantasy trope, Abercrombie stays firmly on the trail of high fantasy to satirize it. The noble youth takes the throne, the rustic warrior returns to his home, the slave is freed, the wise wizard passes back into mystery and legend, and each of these endings is turned delightfully on its head. Such a solution would be impossible for Martin I believe, even if he could find the path back to it from the wilderness he's wandered into, because to directly satirize the existing structure of fantasy would be to acknowledge the ultimately derivative nature of his work, the fact that to define himself by how much he's NOT copying Tolkien is ultimately no more creative than copying Tolkien.
@EvilArtifact
7 ай бұрын
I think critiquing ASoIaF from a pop culture perspective is insufficient. I think an academic perspective works better. GRRM doesn’t subvert expectations at all, he litters his books with foreshadowing and clues about what is coming. He also doesn’t randomly kill protagonists, that is a misconception perpetuated by the show that bleeds into the books because most people read the books after watching the show. Further, the many layers of reference to real-world mythologies echoed in the in-world mythology, which are each in turn echoed within the characters and plot structure through the application of archetypes disprove the idea of subverting mythological structures. In fact, the writing strongly upholds them. The books are complex for sure, and he is struggling with finishing them, but I think it’s because he isn’t writing a straightforward pop narrative. These books are written to be studied by literary scholars, and they are layered with references and meaning that most readers will never understand.
@alphax4785
Ай бұрын
If he doesn't finish the series, and he almost certainly won't... ASOIAF at best will go down as an example of a cautionary tale of what not to do. GOT Season 8 will be the only end of ASOIAF and at this point, it's exactly what Martin deserves.
@EvilArtifact
Ай бұрын
@@alphax4785 I think this perspective is overly harsh. ASoIaF is GRRM’s art, and he doesn’t owe anybody an ending. I also think a capitalistic, “this is an unfinished product” reading is unfair at best and anti-artist at worst. His art is not and should not be viewed as a commodity. Even without an ending, ASoIaF is one of the best crafted pieces of literature ever produced. We display unfinished art in museums and gush about its genius all the time. To treat this differently is simply unfair.
@alphax4785
Ай бұрын
@EvilArtifact ASOIAF has an ending in GOT S8, which is a completed work with most all the same characters. And while in a way you're right that George owes the fans nothing... if he gives them nothing then ASOIAF deserves to be remembered for this ending, a crummy world of plot holes and spelling errors.
@Navigatortrue
7 ай бұрын
I wouldn't be suprised if the ending of the TV series that people hated was infact based on his notes and directions, on seeing the reaction Martin realized he couldn't use that and is unable to create anything more.
@seanemery1917
7 ай бұрын
Some of it is, Bran becoming king was apparently hinted at since he was the first character to have a chapter
@orcocan
7 ай бұрын
i don't know why people keep bringing this up, he was already years late when season 8 came out (and ADWD was years late...) so clearly the issue existed already 2020 was the year in which he wrote the most pages of TWOW so that disproves the theory completely...
@Navigatortrue
7 ай бұрын
@@seanemery1917 I would say that it showed how Martin didn't take into account the mindset of the medieval mind where a "Crippled King equalled a crippled realm" and his rule would be marked with having to constantly put out the fires of rebellious lords until a fit healthy candidate could be found and then Bran would fall out a 2nd window.
@seanemery1917
7 ай бұрын
@@Navigatortrue Did that happen in history?
@clownpendotfart
7 ай бұрын
He was slowing down well before the TV series even began. I think the more important effect of the series is that it made him so rich he doesn't need any more money, and his publisher can't force him to release an incomplete novel like A Feast for Crows.
@beauloppens4100
14 күн бұрын
This is a whole new depth in Game of Thrones I never realized
@SmileytheSmile
24 күн бұрын
While I see and kinda agree with your points on the books' cynicism, I'd like to present a counterargument, that's either too subtle to be noticed, or not intended by Martin, but shines through the work - Ned Stark. Arguably one of the best people in Westeros, who wanted nothing more than peace for his family and world, gets cruelly and unfairly and pointlessly murdered at the beginning of the series. If you look at it that way - this is the thesis of Game of Thrones, that being good is stupid and weak and blah blah blah. But I want you to look at Ned not in the context of his short appearance as a character, but as his legacy. This man, through his loyalty, honor and love, left such an impression on the world, that armies were raised in his honor, his good parenting brought up the people, who will be trying to shape the world in the future to be a better place, if at least for a while. Many books later, Ned Stark is remembered by the North as a shining beacon of what a ruler should be and despite the villains winning again and again and again, through his virtues he inspired people to fight them to the bitter end.
@anastasis-cm5hw
6 ай бұрын
You have a point from the pure storytelling perspective that Tolkien has a vision, but you seem to equate mythology with a stark morality it never, in natural forms, actually has
@mariamilano5756
Ай бұрын
It is my understanding that GRRM gave D&D an outline for how the book series would end. If this is true, and D&D did follow his outline, I can then assume GRRM intended for Bran to ascend the iron throne at the end of ASOIAF. If that is the case, perhaps GRRM doesn't want to finish the books as the backlash against that ending was decisive and harsh------almost no one liked it. This would lead him to either recraft the ending, which I doubt he can do, or he can abandon the series altogether so he doesn't leave book fans as outraged as the show fans were. Either way, I doubt we will ever see TWOW.
@perdurabo56
29 күн бұрын
This ended up being more profound than I thought it would be. Ty
@tellable9425
2 ай бұрын
This critique while having a good few fair points, feels religiously motivated. There are alot of things that are just asserted and I dont think I would agree.
@ManiacMayhem7256
Ай бұрын
Idc what someone religion is if they make good sense
@tellable9425
Ай бұрын
@@ManiacMayhem7256 i dont think someones criticism is invalid because of their religion. But when the religion is the basis for the argument, as it is here, I'm not a fan.
@Grizz1yKi11a
21 күн бұрын
@@tellable9425 Modern morality is based on religion, Christianity especially. You believe in mercy? That wasn't a mainstream accepted ideal of virtue until Christ, it was weakness and a chance to be backstabbed later. You propose to toss out all morality because its based on religion, then? Congrats, you're as nihilistic and cynical as GRRM is (though hopefully not as fat and lazy)
@sardonically-inclined7645
7 ай бұрын
Congratulations, you have a new subscriber. I look forward to seeing more of your channel.
@latham4575
7 ай бұрын
Huge agree. I think that his essential message of subverting fantasy tropes has already played out, but he subverted his own subversion. For example, he kills Jon Snow but brings him back to life. I saw an interview of him criticizing Tolkien for bringing Gandalf back to life. But the difference between the two is that Gandalf’s resurrection is coherent with the transcendent values of Tolkien’s works. A resurrection in Martin’s universe is either tonally incoherent or simply has no transcendental value. Either option is boring and depressing.
@trollfacemafiagaming6036
3 ай бұрын
I can't see you saying this and assume your going off of the books and not the TV show since rn Jon hasn't been brought back in the books and when it comes to themes of his story and how his resurrection will be handled and the change it will bring about in the character you can already see from how well it's been laid out before
@TheHulkfan
Ай бұрын
You know, the fact that George R Martin was an hippie explains why he romantacized so much the wildlings (In Jon view) but I couldn't. The book (and tv show) tries to show that there are good wildlings and bad wildlings, but in the end you do realize that things are deeper than that. The problem is that the wildlings life-style is different from those south of the wall. Once they get pass it, who can say that chaos won't arise? That tribes won't go back at fighting each other? They want to survive, but rather than swallow their pride the prefer to start a war that, in the end, is going to help the White Walkers. The wildlings always complain that the southern/kneelers have exiled them beyond the wall, but we have to ask: how are they reliable? And, just as important question: why were they? The only reason that they end up cooperating with Jon is because they have no choices. Who's to say that, once the time is right, they won't backstab him? Heck, Mance Rayder makes it clear that he's plotting to break free from Melisandre spell and control so he can lead the free folk. It saddens me how, in the world of fanfics, there doesn't seem to be a writer that actually sees through the emtional manipulation, so to make the characters actually call the wildlings out for their arrogance.
@mrkristiangutt
2 ай бұрын
A very coherent and intelligent video essay. Well done. You have one new subscriber.
@mickeydoodle69
4 ай бұрын
It’s not unfinishable. It’s a complex story but we all know the beats. We all know the characters. You have battles about to jump 1:52 off at Winterfell and Mureen, and Oldtown. Whoever is left will gather at King’s landing and the wall and the results will leave us with - if not an end to the arcs as they exist now - at least an end to Wind’s and a platform to set up a true end in Dream.
@kaiserbauch9092
7 ай бұрын
Great video! I am glad to see the views go up! Keep it up!
@Wolf-bz6kq
Ай бұрын
I seen so many theories about the ending and most of them would make sense if Maritin wasn't trying to be a contrarion. The problem is his whole approach is about deconstructing the fantasy genre but when you overall goal is to destroy how can you create?
@santrow1
Ай бұрын
"When you overall goal is to destroy how can you create". Great way to put it.
@himanshuwilhelm5534
7 ай бұрын
It is totally possible wrap the story up. All that is needed is for Song of Ice and Fire to receive the Wheel of Time treatment.
@Montenegro651
Ай бұрын
Beautiful essay. Well done! 👏
@PolarBearSeal
Ай бұрын
I love how everyone in this comments section hates the books, complains about the fact that the story isn't complete and knows exactly what GRRM is thinking, while despising him.
@hoi-polloi1863
7 ай бұрын
Martin's work suffers in that he doesn't have characters that embody virtues (or in most cases even try to). There's little reason to root for any of his characters, unless they have cooler uniforms than their opponents.
@shorewall
7 ай бұрын
Yeah, that works in small doses, not Octiligies.
@fuzzzone
7 ай бұрын
Ned Stark. Brienne of Tarth. Maester Aemon. Davos Seaworthy. Samwell Tarley. Barristan Selmy. Jon Snow. The story is full of characters who aspire to high ideals and moral virtue. Do they always perfectly achieve them? No, but zero people in real life do either.
@hoi-polloi1863
7 ай бұрын
@@fuzzzone It's a fair take. The impression -- subjective to be sure! -- I got was that when some idealists do infrequently pop up in aSoIaF they get almost gleefully slapped down by Fate (or Martin) and never had a chance. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the majority of viewpoint characters left a bad taste for me.
@PodreyJenkin138
7 ай бұрын
@@fuzzzoneand who among them have happy endings or even success? Ned stark is beheaded to show us what "honorable men" get in westeros Jon Snow is banished to the north and spends most of his time being unrelated to the events of the world The spider, one of the few characters that is shown to have an ideal of working for the stability of the realm instead of personal power, legacy, birthright or honor And I bet you in the end his story will be tragic and result in failure
@venus2677
6 ай бұрын
@@hoi-polloi1863 Of the five PoV Characters with the most chapters, Jon and Dany, I would consider idealists, Catelyn has flaws but was an upstanding person, Arya is a child and has been dealt an exceptionally bad hand, so it's hard to qualify her, and Tyrion is, to me, a tragic villain. I enjoy seeing both heroic and villainous characters being tested, not just on moral grounds, but in everything that makes a person what they are. Heroes can be worn down into villains and villains can battle the habits they've formed to rise above. Brienne inspiring Jaime to seek an honorable life, despite how his previous virtuous action was viewed, is one of my favorite redemption arcs. Not to mention seeing Cersei doom herself firsthand is hilarious.
@FalkFlak
Ай бұрын
This is a well articulated imposing analysis. I was instantly repelled by the nihilistic tripe of GoT. Always wondered how people could get past so many books and a TV show without noticing its emptiness.
@Sammidonut
21 күн бұрын
Should have done the Scorsese ending. Everyone dies. Life is meaningless. There is no fruitful ending. Just a horrible journey and a pitiful end.
@JayBigDadyCy
6 ай бұрын
It might be a mess. But it's the most amazing mess I've ever seen and when I start to read it, I cannot stop.
@d_ruggs
5 ай бұрын
After the last 12 years of waiting, I feel like we're all ready to join house stark for how long we've been saying 'winds of winter is coming'
@zara-zq1oi
Ай бұрын
I just find this to be an utterly idiotic take. The thing that he got wrong was the characters ages. He made everyone too young and has now hit a wall with that. Also he had no pressure on him before the show… for a creative pressure is almost always a death sentence.
@ptptpt123
Ай бұрын
Then he just has to accept and make children do things beyond their age.
@snocades
5 ай бұрын
Heartily disagree with this take, you make too many assumptions about GrrM and his personality.
@careyfreeman5056
7 ай бұрын
Because it's basically a soap opera. I don't think it was ever intended to have a hard ending.
@clownpendotfart
7 ай бұрын
No, soap operas are written MUCH more quickly. This has none of their best quality (which is to say, their quantity).
@careyfreeman5056
7 ай бұрын
@@clownpendotfart But it's the same premise in that it was never designed to end. Just keep moving the plot along.
@clownpendotfart
7 ай бұрын
@@careyfreeman5056 There's a promise of an ending for ASOIAF.
@careyfreeman5056
7 ай бұрын
@@clownpendotfart Promises, promises. . . but never a plan.
@Dinaazem91
4 ай бұрын
What is this take?
@fernandogutierrez4429
Ай бұрын
After so many years, finally a satisfying explanation of GoT
@comentedonakeyboard
7 ай бұрын
Once anti war messaging equates defense with offense it paradoxically becomes pro war of agression again i mean just imagine Spitfires being grounded because leaded fuel bad
@caleblee1780
Ай бұрын
Here’s why it does have a message. 1. Anti-war 2. He has a class message about the upper class manipulating the peasants. 3. He has a religion message about organized religion manipulating the peasants. It’s basically dune. So all this talk of it not having a message is hogwash. Does it offer a way to beat those things? No. I don’t think it has to though in order to have a message.
@awsome182
3 ай бұрын
I will mever forgive GRRM for including this insufferable character "Quentin" in the latest book, forcing us to follow this stupid character/pov, only to kill him off at the end of the book. I was so angry!
@MickyChowMein69
29 күн бұрын
I get the premise. How will you make a satisfying ending without a fundamental point being made? Yes. I see your point. Good video.
@octapusxft
7 ай бұрын
It is a shame that he also refuses to give his blessing to someone else to finish it. He also fails to accept that regardless of what he thinks, people will eventually finish with with a combination of A.I. and brain.
@ROMANTIKILLER2
7 ай бұрын
Interesting analysis. I must admit it has been few years since I last read aSoIaF (and honestly I don't feel the need to pick it up again), so I may not remember with clarity many details of that huge work, but overall I agree with the points maken in the video. Something that I recall from my reading experience is how in the first three books, despite their deconstructive and often cynical nature, there was still a strong sense of cohesion and direction, and I felt like the story and arcs of some of the characters may have been leading somewhere, and some teaching and sense of resolution was still within reach. Already with the fourth and fifth book, I felt like the story began to fall apart, between more and more plotlines and characters being the focus and most of those giving the impression of being completly pointless, a frustrating exercise in nihilism. Also in my opinion, the saga could not reach a conclusion long before the writing process of WoW started. I know that Martin is often brought up in opposition to Tolkien, but if we stretch the boundaries of what should classify as fantasy genre, I believe that many of the themes explored by Martin regarding politics and society were ultimately handled more successfully by Asimov in his Foundation saga, which in my view (and perhaps this is a hot take) was able to achieve a lot of what aSoAiF seemingly promised.
@JoseTheKraken
5 ай бұрын
Tolken went through a fucking war, and he didn't hate the world as much as this hippie
@petebondurant58
2 ай бұрын
Well, we're two years into the story, more or less, after five novels. At this rate, if he wrote five more novels, only four years would have passed.
@guilherme5094
7 ай бұрын
The worst part is that old Martin is like this because many of his audience are too nice to him. I met a girl who said: 'Okay, we have to remember that Martin doesn't work for us, we're not his boss.' Unfortunately, you can't win.
@basedchimera5859
6 ай бұрын
Shes right though?
@CJVS995
6 ай бұрын
Martin's problem is he jumped the gun when he agreed to get the show made. I get it having a show made especially on a network like Hbo is a huge thing, but he should have finished it all while the show was being made or declined and finish then get the show made. It's like the series itself whole lot of interesting ideas and plots that ultimately go nowhere and you wonder why you bothered to begin with.
@Nyarlathotep_Flagg
5 ай бұрын
I honestly think Wheel of Time disproves your "out of control complexity" section entirely. Personally I think he's mostly just a lazy ass. Yes, if he had more of an original point, rather than just criticism - It would have been much easier to finish his books. That much is most likely true. But plenty of complex stories can go on for ages. Honestly even Tolkiens works are clear proof of this. Silmarillion adds characters endlessly, and the rest of his books does a lot of this too. Granted, in his main books(those he is most well known for), we do not so readily jump between their POV's. But the point stands with Silmarllion in either case. And in the LOTR books and Bilbo, nobody needed to really know anything about the Ainur or Eru to enjoy the books. No I strongly disagree. The mythos added to the world building, ofc. But it was never really necessary for ppl to enjoy the books. In Silmarillion, these figures are centrol to its stories, so that's different. No, I think the real reason is that GRRM is a lazy ass, who has no fire under his ass to actually get it done. And is by now too old, and of too shabby health to finish it in time. A lack of direction may somewhat tie into it, but I don't think it's so central as you claim.
@smashwombel
9 күн бұрын
This seems like a very shallow analysis. ASOIAF is not particularly subversive, except maybe in the beginning, when Ned is betrayed and executed when we are first told that he will be banished to the Wall instead. That and the Red Wedding cemented the series as a work where "anything can happen and nobody is safe". If you actually go over the characters, it's pretty easy to see which ones are important to the story and which ones are just plot devices. It's also pretty easy to see who are the heros and who are the villains. The individual character stories are also consistent. Characters don't just die for no reason, they make important mistakes which over time lead to their downfall. Ned is honorable and peace loving, yet he is ultimately the reason war breaks out. Tywin can control the kingdom, but couldn't control his own family. Stannis is the rightful king, but drives his supporters away due to his stubborness. Jaime has a whole character arc about atoning for the mistakes he made in the past. None of these things would happen if GRRM didn't have an underlying opinion regarding how a good ruler should act. Meaning is instilled into the story itself through the White Walker storyline, which shows us that in the world of ASOIAF there is a division between trivial and ultimate concerns. Just because the "good guys" lose, does not make the story subversive. The good guys arguably lose in the Silmarillion after the Battle of sudden flame but are eventually triumphant. ASOIAF suffers from a lack of closure, but it's pretty clear where story is supposed to go.
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