"That's not a bug, that's an intentional thing." PREACH. Seriously, intentionally leaving cheese in the game is genuinely a solid design choice.
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Thanks for the validation. Honestly seeing A Short Hike completed in 3 minutes changed my entire perspective to issues like this...
@SuPeRNinJaRed
4 ай бұрын
Agreed! Honestly the beauty of cozy is you can play however you want, wanna clip through trees and ladder jump on top of a roof, go for it! O feel like there is no “cheating” in cozies you’d only be cheating yourself (if you think of it that way anyway)
@ryanjdevlin87
3 ай бұрын
@@advancenine things like this will keep people playing your game for years ! very good choice
@Gatorboy5678
Ай бұрын
EXACTLY. Speedrunners breath life into games. Speedrunners are one of the biggest reasons Super Mario 64 is still super popular. Among other games.
@popsters_
4 ай бұрын
when a player attempts to fly out of bounds, similar to the storm in the water, you could have a big gust of wind that blows them back!
@emperor8716
4 ай бұрын
yep!
@k12moyo
4 ай бұрын
10:27 I should what!? I SHOULD WHAT!? Lol
@shawns4354
4 ай бұрын
You should buy 10 copies and share with your friends and family....??? Lol
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
@@shawns4354 THIS! This is right answer lol
@GReimerGaming
4 ай бұрын
I’m responsible for Bugs 2 & 3 lol. Really loving this game so far!
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Dude I had to get your laugh in this episode! It’s infectiously amazing :) I liked highlighting our “battle of wills”
@willgray1090
4 ай бұрын
Definitely a cozy game! I'd retexture the robots though if they're supposed to read as stone. Right now, they read as metal robots.
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
I like that. That’s super helpful feedback. Thank you so much!
@anomalina7860
4 ай бұрын
I was gonna say the same thing... the Oracle Walkers don't look "of" this world, they look like Gizmo-Duck or somethin'
@Pengiiii2
4 ай бұрын
WOAH THIS NEW CHARACTER ART IS AMAZING!!!
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Really? Oh I’m so glad you think so. This is the tip of the iceberg. There are some REALLY cool new character models showing up soon :) thanks for the kind words!
@myrrysmiasi4866
4 ай бұрын
You really seem to be growing, both when it comes to game dev as well as in front of the camera :) it's really nice to see! I'm a big fan of the story of the stone golems that mindlessly expand an abandoned castle because they haven't been instructed to stop :D
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Yo! This means alot to me because I HATE being in front of the camera so much. So this comment means a ton to me. Thanks for being so cool.
@13x666
4 ай бұрын
Now that the character is customizable, there's a fun new challenge: dealing with conjugation based on grammatical gender in other languages, yay :D I love following this project so much. Great progress, congrats!
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Hahahaha! That was one of my resistances to doing this. Then I remembered I always call the player “Traveler” until the very end. Lucky break! I did have to find multiple jump sounds though :)
@13x666
4 ай бұрын
@@advancenine Hmmm! That might help in some relatively rare instances, but it doesn't really solve it. E.g. in Ukrainian (and other Slavic languages) "when I was little" - a line from the video - definitely changes depending on the gender of the speaker (unless the translator rephrases it to be something like "back in my childhood"), as does any first-person verb or adjective really. Any word in agreement with "you" would also have to change depending on the gender of the addressee. And even the word Traveler would still need to change, ideally. So yeah, something to look into :)
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
@@13x666 omg you’re right! I speak Spanish which has masculine and feminine adjectives and I didn’t even see it. YIKES!
@lucbloom
4 ай бұрын
Good luck! You can have optional _m or _f translations in you text database that the game looks for based on gender. If it’s not there, it picks the id without the m/f append.
@lucbloom
4 ай бұрын
Another option would be to say; “ever heard of cross-dressing and gender fluidity? Hello?! It’s 2024! Traveler always identifies as he/him” ;-) jk don’t do that :-)
@hamzahgamedev
4 ай бұрын
What a legendary game this is. It inspired me to make my own cozy open world game and make devlogs about it! Super excited for Nightstones and I REALLY can't wait to play it! 💖💖
@Enite
4 ай бұрын
A quick writing suggestion! Your MC dialogue's inner monologues are speaking to the player as though YOU aren't playing them... "It's my mother's tea pot!" Instead, consider a more first person inner monologue ie: "It's mom's tea pot!" Keep killing it! 🤘
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Nice one! I would have never seen that myself but I totally see it now. This will be way better. Thank you for this :)
@Enite
4 ай бұрын
@@advancenine Your grace is admirable! Thanks for being such a kind and sweet soul! Too many... ahem... KZitem Devs make it about them, not about their art :)
@nkish
4 ай бұрын
I really enjoy that you’re including the bugs in your videos! Those are entertaining.
@cryingwatercolours
4 ай бұрын
8:32 thank god!!! omg i was praying for this one! not being able to play as a girl would have caused a lil disconnect for me personally but being able to customise it would be even better! it’s been really frustrating with kickstarter games recently, making the ability to play as a female a fund raising goal…
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Thanks for validating! You can thank my nieces for helping me see the light. But as soon as I saw the girl in the game, I realized it had to be this way. The girls look so good in the game! #girlpower
@afirstlovelost
4 ай бұрын
As an inspiring dev and watching your videos since the 3 dev log. I'm so happy you figured this out and been transparent about your shortcomings. I hope this will help me and others learn more!
@Selrisitai
4 ай бұрын
Did you mean _aspiring?_
@_MrMen_
3 ай бұрын
I really appreciate how in your earlier video you explained that you used assets. Because initially I had real developer envy, wondering how a one man band, working part time on the game, could create such a beautiful looking and playing game in one year. My only suggestion is that you add something to keep track of the task/quests the player has. I've played part of the demo, and already started to forget what quests I have to fulfil.
@ChillinWithTheCapuchins
4 ай бұрын
Super cool to see how things are progressing! My favorite feature of my favorite cozy games like A Short Hike and Lil Gator Game, is that they are NEVER frustrating. And I don't just mean well designed but just that the games never do anything negative to the player. There is no fail state, no death, no health, no way to lose progress. I find these games to be so refreshing because I'm just free to explore and find all the nooks and crannies and hidden secrets without worrying about any consequences or skill. Providing a challenge is one way to make a game fun, but making moment to moment gameplay interesting is another great way to make a game fun. And I think that is part of what draws so many people to cozy games.
@mimivrc4148
4 ай бұрын
did the thumbnail just change for this video?! I saw it all day in my suggestions and I swear it was a different character! this new one is cute though!
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Ha it totally did. I mess with the thumbnail and title til I get it right… glad you like the new girl character though :)
@LavxaGames
4 ай бұрын
Congrats on the feature! Love this journey
@Eizenz
3 ай бұрын
I am a fan of a lot of genre's. Cozy games are an important part. It does look very cozy. Wishlisting. EDIT: Also, thanks for providing a free demo on Steam. Personally that's a huge plus trying it out before committing to a sale.
@advancenine
3 ай бұрын
You wishlisted and noticed the demo. Heck yeah! Thank you! That’s literally soooooooo helpful and I really appreciate it!
@lucbloom
4 ай бұрын
Thank you for customization!!! My daughter will love it!!! Thanks for listening to this and other requests. Like the camera movement and the box carrying exploit.
@MrMpa31
4 ай бұрын
Great lesson in proper tagging, categorization and targeting the proper audience
@TheKingOfDucks1234
3 ай бұрын
So i left a comment on the last video about how you should add a health system. I think it would add a lot to the game but you could make so you don't die completely but go back to lets say.... the last room you entered or something like that. And like i said on the last video u could find items like helmets or shirts or hats to upgrade the health. Keep up the great work!
@izybit
4 ай бұрын
Instead of having to backtrack over fire, when crossing the fire's path it should go out past the point (resetting the tiles). This makes more sense puzzle-wise.
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Dang that actually makes a lot of sense. Really good and helpful observation. Thank you!
@ChinnyD
4 ай бұрын
I've been silently following the progress of this project for close to a year and I'm always impressed with the updates but wow it's really coming together now! Congrats on finding the cozy genre and it doing so well so far. Excited to play one day!
@CyberStudios
4 ай бұрын
Keep it up :D. Routing for you all the way
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Really cool thing to say! Thank you!
@thaumaticpig
4 ай бұрын
I always love your alpha tester clips, lol. Can't wait until I get my own game to a stage where I can release a pre-build for people to break
@lemonplays-gaming
4 ай бұрын
It just shows how important it is to tag your games correctly so the right people can find them.
@K1ngWerth
3 ай бұрын
One thing I'll suggest is toggling the collission of the trees on and of when the plalyer is walking and flying
@skandev1921
4 ай бұрын
Been following for a while , the new graphics ( logo , steam page picture , ui) defiently gave the game the right identity , everything is coming along really nicely , Well done!
@shawns4354
4 ай бұрын
For those concerned about the cozy tag think of games as multi genre experiences. Think of NS as Cozy-lite.
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Good call. Thats something I was totally unaware of... just how broad that term is. Shows what I know...
@cryingwatercolours
4 ай бұрын
2:13 i found a design document for cozy games and it was crazy, these students made this whole theory on what makes a cozy game and it’s awesome
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Really? Hahaha. I have to see this... any chance you could send me the link?
@owenhey3187
4 ай бұрын
Great update! A small note about something you probably were going to change anyway - the "blow up" / scale effect when you select each element on the UI is much too drastic - tone it down and make it quicker. It should be a tiny pop not a slow explosion.
@m4r_art
4 ай бұрын
I'm glad you're making your project into a reality. Young people have no idea how complex it is to actually follow through on your ideas in game design with all the daily tasks life has for you. Once you're done with the project you should consider making a course about making a game from no skill to platform release. It would be a good way to you to backtrack on the process and in the same time teach others what it takes to make it happen.
@Alepoke35
4 ай бұрын
Looks great! I found a few bugs and left some comments to videos I uploaded on the last video. There were a few parts of the game where I would get stuck and wanted to point them out!
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
I appreciate you pointing them out! I believe I addressed them all. I REALLY appreciate you helping me :)
@MiruuuDraws
4 ай бұрын
This look amazing! I've been following your progress since the first gamedev and I'm truly impressed! At first as I saw you using all these preexisting assets, I thought the game lacked uniqueness. But now it's starting to take a really interesting shape. Slowly and steady the game is finding it's own voice. Congrats!
@ltsecondincomand
4 ай бұрын
I hope you keep being able to climb trees, I always wanted to see that in this kind of game but never do.
@lexibyday9504
4 ай бұрын
In my mind, a cosy game is a game you don't have to stress about playing. For example Stardew Valey, which everyone says is a relaxing game, gives you a lot of stuff to do and lots of time limits to get all that stuff done in. True if you're great at time management, which I am very much not I am incapable of time management, you can play the game without stressing. For me those games are industrial strength stress generators. So to me a cosy game would give you a few things to do at your own pace and, when you have completed them or are ready for more, you can ask for more to do.
@morning_marie
4 ай бұрын
Love that you added keepsakes and character customization
@k0cc425
4 ай бұрын
I was surprised when you remarked that the oracle walkers were made of stone - definitely gave metal vibes to me with the bluish tint; perhaps something to do with the animation as well, as it reminds me of those ever-so-common robots moving about on a single wheel.
@mason8714
4 ай бұрын
me and my son are loving this game and cant wait for it to come out!
@N0AHL0C0
4 ай бұрын
I remember watching your first dev log since then your game has really grown it looks amazing !!
@Nounsi_Dev
4 ай бұрын
Woah this game has come so far and im all here for it
@unspi554
4 ай бұрын
Amazing work, nice new character. That so cool that you get more visibility with the cozy genre !!!
@foldupgames
4 ай бұрын
That's very funny. Realizing there's an existing category for what you're already making helps you lean into established tropes or subvert them with intent.
@lillyblackblood
4 ай бұрын
I feel like there should be some feedback on the fire. Just running into an invisible wall is weird.
@shawns4354
4 ай бұрын
Agreed, a stagger back animation would be nice.
@josewenzel
4 ай бұрын
Dad game dev at it again... awww man I love you
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Not nearly as much as I love you. Thanks for being rad and supportive :)
@jaimyyelvingtonmusic
4 ай бұрын
Trying out the demo now, I just recently found your channel. Hoping to make a game myself one day but I have zero knowledge on how to do so.
@Cxrsed_rl
4 ай бұрын
you gotta make this a rogue like bro with perks and stuff, would be sick
@HomeCode
4 ай бұрын
Always appreciate the updates! Can't wait for the game and I really hope it really is the game YOU wanted to play because that's the game I want to play 😊 going to play the demo for the 3rd or 4th time tomorrow 😊
@KrAvE4KaRnAgE
4 ай бұрын
This game keeps getting better and better, the graphics are stunning. You used to include more of the technical coding, theory and development steps in your devlog videos. Is there a reason you have moved away from this? I found them quite interesting and informative but understand that it may not be to everyone's taste. Thank you so much for sharing your journey!
@Squant
4 ай бұрын
For a true cozy game you need to ensure your NPCs have the most generic "wholesome" dialog imaginable. Absolutely no personality beyond tired cliches and stereotypes.
@neonswift
4 ай бұрын
Cozy games can definitely have time limits. Stardew (and by extension many farming games including Harvest Moon) literally has a day/night cycle where you pass out if you don't sleep by 2pm. I would argue that a cozy game can have a time limit BUT it needs to be balanced to ensure it doesn't detract from the overall cozy nature of the game. I'm glad you figured out what kind of game you are making and now have a better way of marketing it. I have been keeping a close eye on this.
@SereneSongsmith
2 ай бұрын
Love it, looks so cute and fun. I wishlisted this in Steam!
@advancenine
2 ай бұрын
For real!? That’s so freakin cool of you and you have no idea how much that helps me. Thanks for being AMAZING!
@xtheyan
4 ай бұрын
That's so amazing ! The camera angles remind me of Bomberman 64.. The magical forests remind me of Ocarina Of Time.. The music literally cures my anxiety and every single texture is beautiful.. Congrats man, you created a masterpiece.
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Get out of here with your Bomberman 64 reference. Thats too kind and I can't believe anyone besides me still remembers that game. Seriously thank you for the amazingly kind words. I really REALLY appreciate it :)
@CozyToni
4 ай бұрын
I am so excited and cannot wait to play this game! Great job!! 👏🏽😊🎉
@brovideolol3488
4 ай бұрын
"its not a bug its a feature" 😄
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
lol. Words to live by :)
@Gleamiarts
4 ай бұрын
the way i ran to download as soon as you said a demo was available
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Thanks for giving it a shot! I hope you like it but if you don't please let me know how I can improve :)
@malorum
4 ай бұрын
The bug testing section of the video is the best!
@miladyspeaks
4 ай бұрын
I'm am going to check this out. Great video-especially at the end. LOL
@future-history-ua
2 ай бұрын
how many people are in your team? 3d level, characters, special effects, ui, gamedesign and text - this is so much work. How do you invent many game design features and small gameplay mechanics? Development looks so simple on the video but behind the scene i see how exhausting it is to manage artists and to implement art in game engine. And then after main work not to feel tired to record and edit video, wow
@advancenine
2 ай бұрын
Thanks for noticing all the details. I work on the game when I’m not working on my real job or being a dad. I make use of assets as much as possible but always modify them so they don’t look like assets. I have an amazing composer that does all the music and a 2d artist for drawing the menu icons because I can’t draw (like at all). What works for me is break everything down into 2-4 hour systems are just start knocking them out. It’s amazing how much content you can create with multiple systems interacting.
@guilhermehenrique-zj5tt
4 ай бұрын
can i give you a feedback? that mining thing. just make it fly towards us like a magnet. because thats going to be anoying really quick.
@user-uk9er5vw4c
4 ай бұрын
lots of work man, respect
@sams_3d_stuff
4 ай бұрын
Thanks for being an inspiration. Wishlisted loong ago.
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Really appreciate that. I’m working hard to put an amazing game into your hands :)
@ChaloopaJoe
4 ай бұрын
It's probably already a feature, but it'd be good to have a button that instantly resets the camera to the default position. I always get frustrated when I can't reset something back to its intended setting 😂
@unspi554
4 ай бұрын
Take care with the assets you get for free from nice people, you can get legal issue if they dont sign a document thay they wont ask for royalties or someone attack your for unpaid job, I know that Jonas Tyroler had to make 100 peoples sign a thing for the translation of his game.
@2goofyskaters
4 ай бұрын
I can definitely see this game being on Nintendo Switch...what do you think about that? By the way, I've really been enjoying seeing Night Stones slowly progress over time, keep up the good work!!
@DirectorAmelia
4 ай бұрын
The progress looks great! 🥳✨
@KryyssTV
4 ай бұрын
The thrust of cosy games are just titles with miminal player resistance by the game itself and an atmosphere which feels inviting and calm. It's typically the kind of audience who lead stressful lives and want some escapism which means cosy games are more about atmosphere than technical complexity. Think of them like slipping into a hot bubble bath at the end of a work day. Quite often the content is little more than busy work with players not being expected to meet any rigid criteria so that they are free to set their own gials. This is why cosy games are typically sandbox titles. As it stands the Zelda-esque nature of your game with combat and dungeons will not appeal to the target audience who won't want to feel tension. Instead you're going to need low stakes puzzle dungeons or monsters only existing as obstacles that need you to learn how to overcome. A simple example of this may be a monster that copies your movements so you move around in such a way as to trap them in a corner or walk them into a hole so you can get passed.
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
This is super good feedback. I think you made me realize a messaging issue I have. I think you think there is timing based combat in the game. Is that correct? The reality is the combat is essentially a puzzle without any time constraints. I truly appreciate your amazing insight :)
@KryyssTV
4 ай бұрын
@@advancenine It was more to do with you having monsters that you fight with wands and swords ect. While you cannot be killed by these enemies, as you said, the gameplay videoes show that you need to attack them while avoiding getting hit. The fact they only move when the player moves doesn't reduce the tension they'll cause due to the need to deal with an aggressor. By all accounts a cosy game needs to avoid hostilities of any kind because of the needs of the target audience. Take Stardew Valley for example, you'll quite often see players asking if they can complete the game without doing dungeons or wanting mods that make dungeon exclusive items available by other means. You also see a higher number of players with mental health issues turning to cosy games for a calming distraction so these people will have a more severe reaction to even minor anxiety inducing threats.
@SuperDoomKing
4 ай бұрын
Now this is a cozy video.
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
BAM! Thats exactly what I was after :) Thank you!
@DarrGabb
4 ай бұрын
Have you considered adding multiplayer / co-op to the game? I would love to play this game with my friend!
@Duke6598
4 ай бұрын
is the end abruptly cut off?
@Andrium
3 ай бұрын
Затишна гра у відкритому світі, яку ви могли бачити у своєму сні 🥰
@Seshua87
2 ай бұрын
Although I'm not the target audience I'll sub just to follow along, Also I'll recommend you and others to check out Noia Dev he's a solo dev making a full on 2D stylized MMO. I really admire watching devs like him and yourself.
@youknowwhoiamcdm
4 ай бұрын
been waiting for a new video for so long. like i would just open yt every day to see if you posted a new video. I might be overreacting but i think the character customisation is a pretty bad addition i always saw it as a zelda like game where everyone plays as the same character. but because of the character customisation the idea of a main character. I do think that a girl as a playable character would be cool. (I still love the game and have tons off respect for everything you've done so far).
@ritpop
4 ай бұрын
"That's not a bug its for speedrunners" lmao when you starting to make a lot of translation i would love to help with brazlian portuguese
@StefanEnslin
4 ай бұрын
I would love to take a look at the demo, unfortunately steam is currently blocked where I live.
@cheesesnax6190
4 ай бұрын
Wait... is that Revita kid?
@themule8625
4 ай бұрын
Game looks amazing
@Hiramas
4 ай бұрын
If that artist send you art for free: FIND A WAY TO PAY THEM! Artists deserve to be payed!
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
I totally agree artists need to be paid for their talents. Did I somehow make it seem like I don't think that? I'm super sorry if I made it seem I'm taking advantage of someone...
@rutchjohnson
4 ай бұрын
I would advise against custom character creation. Half of your job while making this game is to create engaging characters and a new lovable IP. When the player customizes their character you are dissolving the very identity of your most important character in your story. Most great games of the past have one playable character that have launched brand new IPs. Pokemon, Zelda, Mario... to name a few. Most games with custom characters are forgotten. Your most important asset when making this game is the story and it's characters.
@KJ7JHN
4 ай бұрын
When using Google translate go English to Chinese, but, afterwards, copy the other language text, and in a new translator instance translate it back to English. Just copying it over won't work. Needs to be a new instance. It'll show gramatical errors.
@lloyd011721
4 ай бұрын
i can see the windwaker inspiration, but where is the ff 7 part?
@lloyd011721
4 ай бұрын
the game doesnt NEED a girl as a playable character, but the option is good.
@Peppermintz1
2 ай бұрын
After trying out the night stone demo first time 8 mins later the interact button bugged out and couldn't work after swapping interact button on A and jump B for switch controller layout. Even after reverting back to default controls it didn't fix the interact button bugged.
@advancenine
2 ай бұрын
Thanks for letting me know about this. This issue has not been reported before. You are using a Nintendo Switch controller, correct? I'll try and duplicate and fix. I appreciate you letting me know...
@Peppermintz1
2 ай бұрын
@@advancenine Yes it is a nintendo switch controller.
@melinarose3645
3 ай бұрын
I WANT TO PLAY IT NOOOW
@advancenine
3 ай бұрын
Dooooooooooooooooooo it! I'd be so pumped if you played the demo :)
@nathan77777
3 ай бұрын
Nice game. Please add much more without breaking basics of the game.
@advancenine
3 ай бұрын
Hey I appreciate the feedback. How far into the demo did you feel that there needed to be more? Thanks so much for your help!
@zojirushi1
4 ай бұрын
Was this game inspired by A Short Hike? Cause that’s a cozy game
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Good observation! It is and I talk specifically about that here: kzitem.info/news/bejne/w3dtxap8nZyghYYsi=gQAf1CytaWGc1ULL&t=167
@2leon1_
4 ай бұрын
how did you create the game tho what software did you use??
@Domse65
4 ай бұрын
Please don't fix the bugs, they don't break anything, just add ways to speedrun
@kartoffel4050
4 ай бұрын
How can we help with the translation process? I can help translate to portuguese and some spanish.
@stray1239
4 ай бұрын
when the view counter says your first but there's 9 likes and 3 comments: FIRST i'll see myself out
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Hahahaha. I think that was KZitem lying though. As soon as I posted it, it had 3 comments somehow. You’ll always be first to me lol
@omerertekin3994
4 ай бұрын
Hey. If you are looking for translator to turkish, i can do it volunteerly. Well i'm not a translator but i think i can help if you need. Great video!
@maxrotceig
4 ай бұрын
That's not a bug it's a feature !
@advancenine
4 ай бұрын
Hahaha. My favorite bug is when I get to say, "Oh that? It's supposed to be like that" lol
@aldrinator
4 ай бұрын
Cozy games are simply not stressful and relax. no enemies to evade, no timers, no battles
@Brick_is_cool
4 ай бұрын
Epik
@peterplatter
4 ай бұрын
I can help translate it into Polish if you're interested.
@pidginmac
4 ай бұрын
Cool
@kawaiiskiki
4 ай бұрын
Ya finally figured it out, huh? Now don't become one of those cheap "Cozy" games that the industry is pumping out RN like back during the Platformer and FPS Renaissance, _keep improving!_
@mikemikemikemikemikemeup
Ай бұрын
Your game looks cool, but I hate that you speak like a politician that has to please everyone. Every video of yours, you’re apologizing for something that you did. you’re a nice guy that clearly doesn’t mean anything bad by things and you don’t need to apologize. You can’t make everyone happy and when you do you often times alienate your audience. The more you try to appease people that are upset with you in the comments the less I wanna follow your videos.
@KingfameYT
4 ай бұрын
Hi
@cokomairena
4 ай бұрын
chinese is complex on the display front, but very very simple on the grammatical front.. you don't have verbs or genders for example, or plurals for numbers afaik
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