As a Martis main the tip# 9 is the most effective way to counter him. Additional tip: Minsithar is a great counter against him since his 2nd skill is considered as a dash/blink skill. Another tip: Similar to the tip on using Winter Truncheon. You can actually time your CC skill when Martis is about to cast his ULT this will cancel his casting animation and give time to fight him back or retreat "but" this doesnt mean his ULT is now on CD if you ever cancelled it.
@haroldsonne5546
Жыл бұрын
Enemy has too many dash/blink hero Minsithar: Hold my spear
@Kushalrai37
Жыл бұрын
As martis main used phoveus which is best counter for martis
@monsterherobrine
Жыл бұрын
wanna know something martis mains all his skills are considered dash skills
@ComradeMinez
Жыл бұрын
For some reason his ult is also cancelled when he's inside minsi's ult and tanky heroes are good against martis👍🏻
@doode6487
Жыл бұрын
@@Kushalrai37 Phoveus is also great against Martis but its a 50/50 in my opinion. As an Offlane user, I sometimes build Tank build on Martis when facing enemies like Phoveus or Masha.
@redman4482
Жыл бұрын
As a martis main i want ask elgin WhY yoU tRynA RuiN mY LiFe???
@mlbbds
Жыл бұрын
And I wanna ask a question to a Martis Main that why are u killing the heroes who are inferior to Martis😢😢😢😢😢😢😢
@redman4482
Жыл бұрын
@woah6051 Valid arguement
@redman4482
Жыл бұрын
@@mlbbds What else am i supposed to do? die to them? then lose a star and get reported by my team for feeding?
@chinchanso2189
Жыл бұрын
🤣🤣
@abdullahbinzubair3716
Жыл бұрын
When martis mains ruin the lives of many marksman main like myself. It is even
@Shutyooasss
Жыл бұрын
Elgin shares 9 tips in 5mins... Kazuki shares 3 tips in 20 mins😂😂😂
@businessmanbrute2211
Жыл бұрын
He is a scammer
@aadithyank485
Жыл бұрын
Costly kazuki
@rikudousennin3190
Жыл бұрын
"This video have codes🤡"
@_Lil_dawg
Жыл бұрын
Thats true bro
@rawrn.
11 ай бұрын
kazuki is a scammer
@Fri_daY.
Жыл бұрын
Minsitthar's ult is also pretty useful, Martis can't dash inside minsitthar's ult, that means no cc immunity. And he can be easily killed like that.
@keithjustinevirgenes7387
Жыл бұрын
but many martis players are clever, they won't use their skill when minsittar uses his ultimate and waits for it to end
@squidward1901
Жыл бұрын
Lol if using sprint minsithar can be killed easily while his ult has been finished
@Fri_daY.
Жыл бұрын
@@keithjustinevirgenes7387 and while he's waiting, minsitthar's teammates will kill him. There's enough time for that
@Fri_daY.
Жыл бұрын
@@squidward1901 while martis is stuck in minsitthar's ult, his teammates will kill him. That's how it works
@theswordslay3542
Жыл бұрын
@@Fri_daY. i don't think it'll be wise to waste all of your skills on a trapped martis, since well... he might also has a teammate waiting to back him up, and most martis nowaday builds a tank build. only waste all your skills on the trapped martis if you're sure he doesn't have teammates waiting to back him up.
@Sigma_Luffy1111
Жыл бұрын
As Martis main, I just check their items and spells to know if you want to counter me or not. Even if they try to counter Martis, with good timing and positioning, Martis can still go on rampage(if played in the right hands)
@gaslougaslougaslougaslouga6640
Жыл бұрын
Also! Rose gold meteor has the same effect as twilight armor. The mark will be showed on the enemy but martis won't kill him because shield from meteor will absorb damage
@traveller0954
Жыл бұрын
Can I wake up at 2Million followers. ?
@alterb.1052
Жыл бұрын
@@traveller0954 dont wake up anymore
@Sigma_Luffy1111
Жыл бұрын
I think enemy will die without being able to activate rose gold(it is just my opinion)
@esoxy
Жыл бұрын
Barats’ ult actually only counts as a suppress once he has swallowed an opponent, so if Martis uses 2nd skill, you just wait your ult for nothing. At 0:35 you can see that Detona’s tongue is on Martis, meaning that without the anti-cc on skill 2, Martis would have been caught (as long as the tongue touches an enemy, even if they use flicker, they won’t escape, unless they have anti-cc).
@cannibalman8175
Жыл бұрын
True, in my opinion the best way to use Barats ult is to actually use it on their tank then crash the tank towards the dmg dealer, or use it on enemies that have already used their escape skills which is obvious. I think tanks are more important in teamfights than people realize, you might be potentially preventing a wipe by not letting the enemy tank set and sending them back to their team, do remember not to send setter tanks like Atlas and Tigreal toward your own team because that might result in a a wipe and you getting reported
@esoxy
Жыл бұрын
@@cannibalman8175 tanks are super important indeed, and I think 4 pros can’t carry a noob if the noob is playing tank.
@Popsicleed
Жыл бұрын
You could also use rose gold meteor to avoid getting killed by his ultimate just like winter truncheon
@samuyalbalami2773
Жыл бұрын
Hi bro😎😎😎😘😘
@kaibutsugaming1744
Жыл бұрын
He deals true damage when enemy hp is below 50 percent
@hesoyam3433
Жыл бұрын
@@kaibutsugaming1744 his true damage doesn't ignore shield..
@Joo00393
Жыл бұрын
@@kaibutsugaming1744 only execute bypass shield, this ain't aov
@Joo00393
Жыл бұрын
Aov true demage bypass shield
@madelaine0601
Жыл бұрын
I hate fighting with especially when using Valir. I think Martis is a really good counter for him. After that fight, I went out of my way to learn his skills. This video is also a great help! Thanks for being awesome!
@pradipdhami9263
Жыл бұрын
I play valir as well when facing him i don't wanna be low on hp and if my hp is full i can just stay inside my turret he can't do anything (i pick radiant and antiquarace to prevent from being squishy when using valir)
@IsoyaYasuji
Жыл бұрын
As a sub-martis main, i wish he wasn’t as popular he is today, i did jungle martis way before he got his passive buff xD it was so easy getting savages here and there From my experience, heroes that has good kiting capabilities or with long range, can poke him at a distance while he hardly tries to catch you, some of those are yve, valir, pharsa, and just most long-ranged heroes. If possible, it’d be better to focus him first so there’ll be a gradual decrease of threat when he’s not in the teamfight.
@snoobiesamz18
Жыл бұрын
I was too a Martis main back in the day where toxicity doesn't exist in MLBB 😭
@Rogerthat10
Жыл бұрын
What is the best build for martis?
@antannanarivoplum5473
Жыл бұрын
I remember last year you were just promoting Martis to elevate him from being an unpopular fighter. Now he is one of the most popular fighters in the game.
@generalknez3942
Жыл бұрын
I have 2 tips against Martis. 1) Having Lesley in your team is the hardest counter once she starts scaling but get used to being at a disadvantage in early game. Play carefully so the disadvantage doesnt spiral out of control. If you are experienced enough, this strat works like a charm. (im refering to you as a roamer, helping lesley farm as well as your jg. As a sidenote, it took me around 1700-1800 roamer games to FULLY understand the role, job and HOW to play as a roamer. You may think you know how to play it but trust me, there are so many things you still dont know. Only experience can teach you and noone or nothing else. As Belerick says, time teaches you things you cant learn from the books.) This all boils down to how well can you manage your team's farm as well as Lesley's. 2) Make sure to pick a strong/scary hero like Terizla or Franco. These heroes can easily force Martis 2nd skill and then just put a slight distance until its over. Make sure to apply pressure to force out his 2nd phase as well so now you have 8s of him being vulnerable. Terizla 2nd skill is something no hero wishes to eat up and neither is Franco's hook. I merely mentioned these heroes as an example but naturally, there are more heroes like this. The only thing you need to rely on is a strong early burst & cc mage like Luo Yi or Lylia so you can punish Martis real quick.
@horichi-kunnishima2585
Жыл бұрын
POV: MARTIS USING SPRINT
@dontonei29
Жыл бұрын
Oh hell nah, I would not hesitate to run away from him if he uses the Sprint. I rather having beef with Karina instead of him cause he op as hell 💀
@uhsasukemlbb
Жыл бұрын
Franco, kaja and ministr the the only counter for him , other than that, he can deal with the mind and intelligence of the player himself.
@nurik7208
Жыл бұрын
Phoveus enters the Chat : I dare you use blink skills 1 more time!
@GhosSpare
Жыл бұрын
I just woke up after sleeping for 2hrs and i open youtube
@qaissyahiranosman7168
Жыл бұрын
Kaja, welcome to my main roam list
@ermiegamboa9311
Жыл бұрын
Surrender is the best counter after the enemy martis is in a snowball state.
@nobisuke3008
Жыл бұрын
If you are a support user or mage user the best heroes I used to counter him are: (My own experience) Faramis: Ruins his ultimate combo, and helps team mate to last long during clash. Valentina: She can turn the tables if she copies Martis ultimate. Vale: Can easily escape from Martis, can 1 combo Martis if he builds pure damage. Mathilda: Can easily escape from Martis, also help her team mates from escaping.
@leonardophone2618
Жыл бұрын
Another way you can counter Martis is. If you are using CC skill or damage skill, time it perfectly after he used it second skill animation. It provides both CC immunity and damage reduction
@Dabe31XD
Жыл бұрын
10th counter tip, just ban him if you don't like playing against him
@johnmichael946
Жыл бұрын
i always ban him hahaha
@billybonga7631
Жыл бұрын
Yep. No snowball Martis plz.
@aurum.i
Жыл бұрын
@@billybonga7631 snowball martis is the worst. When he succesfully roam all lanes and get lot of gold from killing, you knew the game will end much sooner
@yof2210
Жыл бұрын
I actually didn't know TwiArmor blocks his ult slightly
@nicolaslacartouche6345
Жыл бұрын
Hi Elgin ! Nice video :) You forgot the biggest counters for martis which are Phoveus and more importantly Minsithar (martis cannois even ult in minsi’s ult) ! Good day !
@whiteskye4701
Жыл бұрын
this is a better guide than most of the random yt shorts
@bongnak.168
Жыл бұрын
Elgin : Today I have 9 tips to counter Martis. Me : . . . . . . . . . Ban him.
@Cyberpilz
4 ай бұрын
As Martis Main, I often ask the Marksman to trigger the enemy Battlespell, so I can use my Ultimate. Works for Winter Truncheon too😊 (Im Martis Main since a month, I just wanted to try him because I bought his AoT Skin, and then I start to play him really often)
@Cyberpilz
4 ай бұрын
Also, I often dont use the second phase of his second skill. When I use it, its only to avoid ranged CC, like Francos Hook
@dilankusuma3058
Жыл бұрын
the most effective way to counter him is 1. BAN HIM 2. don't let him snowball both of these are effective counter against all OP heroes lol, and both of these are practically the same as what Elgin say. Suppress, sprint/fliker, winter truncheon, know how the skill work? they're all basic knowledge, all heroes are countered by them not just specific martis
@IAmJadedJM
Жыл бұрын
Just remember that once his ult procs the true dmg upon you (
@Sugasano
Жыл бұрын
Twilight armor reduces true damage too
@xSpizon_
Жыл бұрын
it still does, since the true damage comes from Martis' physical attack, and since antique cuirass decreases his physical attack every time he hits you with a skill, the ult will also get reduced if he hit you with another skill. Edit: i forgot that they changed it lmao, nvm.
@X_Killer7
Жыл бұрын
@@SugasanoUseless since the enemy mm will only need to hit you once for the passive to be gone in mid or late game.
Elgin: Released a video to counter Martis My mm that is not Edith: Build full tank build Me:
@dawn1558
Жыл бұрын
Probably the most effective is to keep your distance unless Martis has flicker
@someguy7110
Жыл бұрын
Bro wth i didnt know twilight armor counters him like that damn And btw one of the most effective counters to him is just... Stay away from him. He cant catch shit if you are far away from him, although this doesnt work for most characters
@kingrjhimyrealnameisrj7893
Жыл бұрын
As a chou main my strategy is hide in the bush wait for martis to cast all skill to my weak teammates and then use my 1st skill+flicker so that i am unpredictable and then 3rd skill+tp+emote then after that his dead, and then tp on his dead body and say in the chat "martis you are weak😜😝". Godbless elgin
@spoliarium_12134
Жыл бұрын
As a Top Player martis I can tell that the most annoying among all you mentioned is Aegis. The other counter I can easily adjust my gameplay to it. But that annoying aegis is a real pain to me. To the Martis players: Think first before using his skill. You can't just charge in without knowing the threat.
@Vasi-A92
Жыл бұрын
Thanks fot share . Now we martis main will counter the counter😂
@chainjail4834
Жыл бұрын
Thanks... I learned more about armor
@vuisaru6978
Жыл бұрын
World rank martis 62 here, and if u ask me i avoid barats ulti with 2nd skill easily, antique and domain can be broken with melific x bod, when enemy is lasly , aamon, or miya type heroes can be noted with aoe skill , flicker users are easy to get with 2nd skill and phase while using flicker as exp and restrabution for speed. If u wanna counter martis you have to build apposite of martis. Use immunity not flicker when martis uses his 2nd skill. Anique is better than domain. Twilight is useless since no martis users casts ulti at first. Use wind str as mm, mage as immunity , and exp( fighters as vengeance) . Martis counter is balmod with tan build domain, fighter and mini tank thamuz, and as mm ill say hard to kill natan.
@ggmm167
4 ай бұрын
How can I equalize my chances as a Dyrroth player? I always lose against Martis and Fredrinn.
@leesanayatin763
Жыл бұрын
Finally may naka alam na rin counter sa main hero ko😂
@PerseusMLBB5368
Жыл бұрын
I'm an Alpha and Martis main and the 9th tip is the most effective here.
@kirbydauz5620
Жыл бұрын
have been lost by a martis jungle and then i see this haha
@whyamiyanto4883
Жыл бұрын
Another tip: Keep your distance Don't go solo Use high mibility heroes
@maolenvinpelaez2199
Жыл бұрын
Wait for late game and crush him, or use Suppress and babysit heroes weak at early game
@miguellaurente4567
Жыл бұрын
Tnx for this vid now I know what item can counter my martis 😅
@Grey_Fit
Жыл бұрын
But you know when someone gonna use Martis when they ban Minsitthar
@SamyLaib-iy4zi
Жыл бұрын
As a Martis mainuser, i say : this wont be enough to stop the Ashura King and i'm all bite
@jynnchiu2786
Жыл бұрын
*sips tea with double true dmg build with rose meteor and guardian helmet*
@IdioticalLui
11 ай бұрын
THANK YOU NOW I CAN COUNTER MY CLASSMATE WHO USES MARTIS AS MAIN
@aintnothingsweet
Жыл бұрын
U can couter martis with Minsithar i think cause martis's skill 2 counts as dash , so when minsi uses his ult martis pretty much cant use his 2nd skill . i think its a good counter . Again depends on the player as well :)
@ruper0
Жыл бұрын
all of Martis skills counts as a dash
@Tl.2255
Жыл бұрын
But minshi gets banned alot and I use phoveus which is also a hard counter against Martis it doesn't matter if Martis goes jungle or exp I normally wreck him with phoveus because of his high damage but again when playing phoveus u need timing and a calm steady cool head and personality one wrong ult u can also die or if u over extended
@JustMe-hc2kv
Жыл бұрын
I'd say Yve is also very good against Martis, the amount of slow she has can pretty much render him useless if he spends his two second skills, and with her first skill she can become quite fast so him catching up is pretty hard too And if for some reason the Martis goes toplane XBorg is just about an impossible matchup if the XBorg knows what he is doing and the enemy team doesn't help him
@3linkin10
Жыл бұрын
if Martis goes to lane, Bane is also a good pick against him, bring that gun to the sword fight 🔫
@JustMe-hc2kv
Жыл бұрын
@@3linkin10 Bane can unironically be pretty strong in lane, the first skill has some good poke damage and the heal can make it hard to win trades But even with that I wouldn't really say he's that good, he needs scaling before doing real damage, personally I'll rather XBorg if I'm going against Martis
@jhndoa5590
Жыл бұрын
Wow, I just got destroyed by a Martis earlier and this video popped out. Coincidence? I think now😂
@fireking3873
Жыл бұрын
If ur enemy use shield or antique or twlight or domice just pik inspire guys
@alemansprototypeguy
Жыл бұрын
Tip #10: Positioning. Tip # 11: Picking anti-tanks like Alpha, Bane, Lesley, Karina, Karrie, Lunox and Balmond.
@cristarchi6961
Жыл бұрын
You can counter martis by banning him or pick him before your enemy
@sasori275
Жыл бұрын
No.10 tip buy rose gold thingy he can’t finish u when his mark is apply on u
@Fujima_Kazu
Жыл бұрын
There's actually a good way to counter martis base on my experience playing against this annoying hero. -Pick Heroes that has high mobility and movement slow abilities. (Ex. Yve, Lylia, and Valir). Once his skill immunity are spent, he's probably going to suffer from repetitive damage and slow effect.
@squidward1901
Жыл бұрын
As martis user even the enemy wearing dominant ice, use sea halberd either to balance attack speed and high damage for high hp
@Dustin97y
Жыл бұрын
You forgot about Phoveus, dude can wipe up his whole team because of that
@acewillaquino9007
Жыл бұрын
Well as a Martis user. There is no other way to counter these tactics except you rely a bit on your teammates. Like, you must see through and drag your screen if the enemies have already used winter trunch, aegis etc. Because, Once all the two phases of his second skill have been used, Martis is good as dead. Although, it depends on the player tho, Martis is so strong as hell, He can just like Karina dominating everything.
@captainnyan-nyan2005
Жыл бұрын
Well Karina is an assassin though. She supposed to have nightmare levels of damage. But she should also be very fragile to balance for the high damage As for Martis. High damage while having decent defense. Is too much. Especially the true damage.
@alemansprototypeguy
Жыл бұрын
@@captainnyan-nyan2005 With that said Martis having high damage and decent defense, he's more of a juggernaut I think considering that his 2nd skill is slow. Also you missed out the concept between juggernauts and divers. Juggernauts are supposed to be tanky yet dealing high damage at the cost of mobility (e.g. Balmond, Bane and Fred) while divers on the other hand, just similar to juggernauts where they are tanky yet capable of dealing high damage but the main difference is, compared to juggernauts, divers are more agile (e.g. Bene, Arlott and even Lance). The question is, how many matches did you see having juggernauts or divers on those matches? Do you have any issues on both juggernauts and divers?
@captainnyan-nyan2005
Жыл бұрын
That's just the casting time. He is more or less a diver than a juggernaut. He has this mobility boost that would let him kill anyone under the turret. Take a few hits and go out with some scratches but not killed. Which the point of the CC immune because lets him efficiently kill enemies without having to worry being stunned by heroes and true damaged by turret.
@captainnyan-nyan2005
Жыл бұрын
@@alemansprototypeguy balmond. He can't do enough damage to be an efficient jungler
@philyfighter4
Жыл бұрын
1. Franco's supression has a weird niche to it wheere martis's second skill pushback can actuallly cancel it for him, so suppressing him in his second skill may not be the best idea 2. slows. They hurt.
@generalknez3942
Жыл бұрын
Barats doesnt "suppress". He stuns. The reason you cant suppress Martis amidst his immunity skill is because the tongue needs to STUN first, THEN the Suppression happens. If you are CC immune or use Purify, you can get away. By getting out of his range you can only do so BEFORE the circle around Barats is formed. If you get out of the circle but were WITHIN the circle when it was complete, his tongue will literally chase you until end of time and you WILL get dragged inside.
@khantkyawza844
Жыл бұрын
As the saying goes “To know your Enemy , you must become your Enemy”
@neilphilippeocampo4420
Жыл бұрын
You forgot to mention the best way to counter any hero is to ban them haha - Arch Neil Gaming
@Eis_
Жыл бұрын
On Martis, 20% CD Reduction pretty much means that the 2 second CD after his 2nd skill's 1st phase is pretty much gone. That's how I'm able to use him effectively as a Tank/Executor + considering the fact that he doesn't need a lot of items to get going.
@walkinganimepedia
Жыл бұрын
my effective strat against Martis as a Roam or Mage is harass him so much that he won't able to build items.
@IRSHATHJK
Жыл бұрын
Give more guides like this for other heroes
@ProjectLifeSketch
Жыл бұрын
Minisithar SS is a good counter to Martis and suppression. just dont let Martis do some hitting, its going to be a piece of cake
@banji7612
Жыл бұрын
Everytime the enemy chose Martis I always picked Freya, idk never had much problems with him using her
@operasiblok3461
Жыл бұрын
use slow effect, it is pretty effective. i.e : valir, yve, xborg with ice queen wand
@neneclaudegonzales200
Жыл бұрын
im martis main,but lately im crushed by freya,this freya is really something now
@justanordinaryclubman7633
Жыл бұрын
Good..... Now do all of these while trying to counter the rest of his team.... The rest of team:
@fatefate5223
Жыл бұрын
as a martis main, just run if you see a berserk martis coming ( which activates on one hit ulti )
@i_UCH1HA
Жыл бұрын
Broo i love it sooo much to harras a martis user cz i myself used to play him 😂
@kazikichan6955
Жыл бұрын
My teammates won stop banning martis great way to counter martis
@Ornyl
Жыл бұрын
If your teammates don't feed which is practically impossible in soloq ...he's really ez to deal with. But yeah he's a good hero for jg and tank...he can farm fast and his snowballing capability is really good.
@ash-2650
Жыл бұрын
I think to best way to make martis vanurable is to bait him to cast his 2nd phase of 2nd skill. After that u truly get a time frame where he is weak.
@legendx33
Жыл бұрын
Best tips: play safe n wait for the late game..
@Decayisbackshessh
Жыл бұрын
As a Martis main . Vexxana is my very hated enemy at all.
@goldgarlic2954
Жыл бұрын
As a 4time Top Ph Martis Phoveus is the hardest counter for Martis.. Would desolate his team fight capabilities
@tadihotado3518
Жыл бұрын
People are scared of martis when i main him and deal with him quite easily, just learn to know the character and you would know how to deal with him, cause its like dealing with yourself
@karmoto8280
Жыл бұрын
You can use Wanwan and Minsitthar to counter Martis Wanwan can literally just use her passive to just avoid getting chased by Martis, he won't be able to catch up with Wanwan due to her "attack speed = mov. speed" (More attack speed will trigger her passive faster making her jump more) . Also Together with trinity build or just with Corrosion Scythe it'll be hard for Martis users to get close to Wanwan (inspire and ult aswell). Minsitthar is reasonable because of his ULT, stops Martis from using his 2nd skill.. With Wanwan though it's important to have the right positioning while up against Martis so you won't be easy food, he can still kill you before you Fly (ult). And if you are able to get flying a.k.a use your Ult you might be able to make a play.
@descriptivestatement
Жыл бұрын
I eat Martis for breakfast. The spicy vinegar one. 😋
@kamotengkahoy7676
Жыл бұрын
Now we martis mains will counter this counters
@weijiang4349
Жыл бұрын
2 more, purify if you have a dash and can immune his cc and dash away and also wind of nature for marksmen.
@joelau5668
Жыл бұрын
as a martis main i dont activate the second phase of his skill 2 just incase if anyting happens and also for a faster cd of skill 2.
@jcnowhere7876
Жыл бұрын
to counter martis you have to play martis
@neorchthenexus1393
Жыл бұрын
Tip 10: Live
@lowrence5579
Жыл бұрын
Instruction Unclear: Proceed to Banned Him.👍
@AndreSantos-ww3cl
Жыл бұрын
When there is a martis I autopick gloo with petrify and time my petrify before he casts his ulti. I use gloo for damage reduction and annoy the hell out him.
@kenmillesca
Жыл бұрын
One other tip you miss elgin is slow effect martis is vulnerable to slow because the only dash he has is his 2nd and you can make a distance
@og_tm_speeddemon5643
Жыл бұрын
Rose gold meteor is a good options too.
@moatlhodilegodi9875
Жыл бұрын
Two men, Minsittah and Phoveus
@lunomacy3512
Жыл бұрын
make a video about Lunox's legend please
@TekkenLaws
Жыл бұрын
Next how to counter freya
@theslightlytiltedcat
Жыл бұрын
Man, since Minsithar is getting a lot of highlights from this season they should give him a Leonidas I skin.
@tyler8788
Жыл бұрын
Good martis user will wait till ur winter/wind of nature/flicker etc on cd. Then, you cant escape from him.
@luquiten
Жыл бұрын
and to think that when martis was first released in the original server, he was far from popular, always has the lowest chance of being picked
@icession4872
Жыл бұрын
welp I knew this was going to happen to my main sooner or later especially when the "Buffs" started. Oh well it is what it is lelz
@marctanzon2422
Жыл бұрын
Im surprised that banning martis was not even included
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