In my personal experience, it's better to learn a modern language like Spanish or Italian before learning Latin, but if we're talking about giving young children a truly Classical education, then they're going to start with Latin. Someone who speaks Spanish or Italian will find John 1-1 very easy in Latin, even if they're not familiar with its case system. Even though I don't agree 100% with your views, I do find them helpful. For example, I use Assimil courses with audio to learn foreign languages, both ancient and modern, including Latin. I've got their Latin course with French as the L1. I learned French 30+ years ago with a dictionary, a verb conjugation book, a phrasebook, and French penpals. Nowadays many language textbooks are glorified phrasebooks, but that's another topic altogether. Sure, Assimil's Latin course has made-up sentences and neologisms with some grammar thrown in to explain things, but I find it very helpful using it with Anki, spaced repetition using flashcards. Like I said, I find your approach very helpful. Let's say I want to improve my Russian with the Bible. I'd find recordings of the Gospel of John in Russian or a native speaker to record verses in that language. Then I'd take a verse and attach the recording with the verse in English using either the KJV or Douay-Rheims, or maybe both, on the other side of an Anki flashcard. I admit, my weak point in languages is reading, but reading is really the best way to acquire more vocabulary. I know you won't 100% agree with @deka glossai, but his almost 10-minute video is good, and he gives reading recommendations beyond Lingua Latina: *How to Read and Speak Latin fluently* (61Kk7VkoWbc)
@classicalliberalarts
22 күн бұрын
This is not reasonable. Latin was spoken before the Romance languages developed, so cannot be dependent on them for learning. Having learned Spanish in school before Latin, I would argue that this is a source of confusion rather than help. One problem is that most English translations are not literal, so words of the Latin text are often ignored in translation, or common English phrases are used rather than the actual phrases of the Latin text. This makes translation impossible for a beginner, but it's the fault of the translation, not the reader. Readers need a literal, word-for-word translation to study from and they can quickly pick up the language and learn to think in real Latin terms. For example, consider this from Caesar: Latin: Sed Nasidianae naves nullo usui fuerunt celeriterque pugna excesserunt. Non enim has aut conspectus patriae aut propinquorum praecepta ad extremum vitae periculum adire cogebant. 2Itaque ex eo numero navium nulla desiderata est. Loeb translation: As for Nasidius’ ships, they were no use and quickly left the battle, for they were not induced to put their lives into the greatest danger by the sight of their fatherland or the injunctions of their people. 2So none of these ships was lost. That is not a literal translation of the Latin and will not help students actually interested in learning the language. The following is proper for students: Literal: Sed BUT Nasidianae NASIDIAN'S naves SHIPS nullo NOT ANY usui USE fuerunt WERE celeriterque QUICKLY -AND pugna COMBAT excesserunt EXITED. Non NOT enim FOR has THESE aut EITHER conspectus SIGHT patriae OF FATHERLAND aut OR propinquorum OF NEIGHBORS praecepta PRECEPTS ad TO extremum EXTREME vitae OF LIFE periculum END adire TO GO cogebant THEY THOUGHT. Itaque AND SO ex FROM eo THAT numero NUMBER navium OF SHIPS nulla NONE desiderata LOST est IS. Students can learn the meaning of every word, in Latin order, and understand the translation with help from simultaneous studies in the Grammar. Understanding, for example, the last phrase to be the "perfect passive periphrastic" is not necessary for reading and comprehension. The guidance of a literal translation that expresses the language accurately is all that is needed.
@DavisKline
16 күн бұрын
The idea that lack of "direct" access will be any real significant detriment with respect to a person's "understanding" of a text is unfounded. You can develop a level of understanding necessary for the contemplative life sufficiently through translation. Of course, having studied the languages, one will have the capability to engage philologically with the texts, and that is extremely convenient, but not as much ideological content gets "lost in translation" as many seem to believe (and this can easily be corrected for by teaching/self study of the texts by way of reference to traditional authorities, especially for the most important texts). The real fruit of studying Classical Latin and Classical Greek is the development of certain faculties of the mind and a taste for literature, taste referring to judgment by reference to the expressive qualities of any particular manifestation of the language (this was due largely to the role rhetoric played in Classical culture--most literary criticism was rhetorical criticism), which can be appreciated only through the systematic study of grammar, syntax, and figures of speech and thought. "Classical" education is, or should be in my opinion, rhetorical education. All that being said, great channel.
@classicalliberalarts
16 күн бұрын
Thanks for taking the time to post. God bless.
@MystieK_
28 күн бұрын
I really enjoy your videos keep putting out your content
@joelkelly4154
28 күн бұрын
Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata is a reading method, not really a spoken method or a method for learning spoken Latin.
@classicalliberalarts
22 күн бұрын
The problem is that one is not actually reading real Latin. So the sense of speed and ease at the beginning is simply a delusion.
@ludwigvanbeethoven8164
18 күн бұрын
I wonder why people are so confounded in the comments. I'm Roman Catholic and started in college to understand the original texts of Thomas Aquinas, Biblia Sacra, Trendentine Council, Latin Mass, etc without having to translate word-for-word. I believe your secular person is trying learn Latin for "prestige" for a "badge" to say, "Look here! I know Latin! Behold how marvelous I am!".
@classicalliberalarts
18 күн бұрын
Teaching grammar in college is a scam. Grammar should be learned in--get this--Grammar school.
@trovaire
26 күн бұрын
Interesting, but I still find that working through Orberg’s method is a very good starting point.
@classicalliberalarts
26 күн бұрын
No one knew how to study Latin before Orberg?
@trovaire
26 күн бұрын
@@classicalliberalarts Orberg's method is a good method in the modern context where learning classical languages is not a "necessity" as it was in the Middle Ages, the Renaissance or Modernity until the 18th-19th century. The amount of input that a beginner learner of Latin or Greek can have access to is very small today. I do not doubt that in a very controlled academic context such as the one you describe, your method is beneficial, but in others and for self-study I have not found a better method than Orberg's. Whoever completes the two volumes of which it is composed with seriousness and dedication, can face classical texts with a high level of confidence. Even after finishing the first volume, reading the Vulgate, for example, is extremely simple, although I must point out that my mother tongue is Spanish and surely for an English speaker, for example, it might not be so simple. In any case, there are many roads that lead to Rome.
@bhutchin1996
24 күн бұрын
@@trovaireModern Romance languages help greatly. "In principio"? OK, what does 'principio' mean? In Italian and Spanish 'principiante' means beginner; in Portuguese the word is 'iniciante'. Luke Ranieri also used Lingua Latina, but he learned Italian first. Assimil's Latin course with audio is good. It's easiest to find it in French, but it's also available in German and Italian. The second, or active, wave is taking the French and translating back into the Latin. Complete the 50th lesson using the first, or passive, wave, and then go back to the 1st lesson and apply the active wave to it, assim por diante = and so on. Some use the chunking method instead and learn the vocabulary in context. That could be used with the Gold List Method as well. Tem mais de um jeito de quebrar um galho, which we'd render in English as "There are more ways than one to skin a cat," but 'quebrar um galho' literally means to break a rooster. Nowadays something like ChatGPT could be used to create example sentences if you can't find them in a dictionary or a course textbook.
@NaruIchiLuffy
26 күн бұрын
Aside from unlocking the writing of important classical authors otherwise locked behind the Greek/Latin barrier, would you say you have gained a better understanding of say Aristotle's (or some other author's) works as a result of being able to read and understand them in Greek or Latin as opposed to accessing them through their English translations? If so, do any concrete examples come to mind?
@classicalliberalarts
26 күн бұрын
Yes, definitely--and I can give many examples of significant benefits in studying Aristotle with a knowledge of the original language. Here's an important one from the very first chapter of the Categories: "Things are said to be Homonymous of which the name alone is common, but the definition of Substance according to the name is different. Thus, a man and an image, are each of them named animal. For of these, the name alone is common, but the definition applied to that name is different. Thus, if anyone explains in what being an animal in each of these consists, he will assign the peculiar definition of each." The English here -- " Thus, a man and an image, are each of them named animal." -- makes no sense. Students reading the English will think that Aristotle means a man is an animal and an image shows an animal, but that's NOT what he's saying. In Greek, the word ζῷον means "animal", from which "zoology" is derived. However, it also means "image" or "sign", from which "Zodiac" is derived. See the definition here: www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*z%3Aentry+group%3D9%3Aentry%3Dzw%3D%7Con So Aristotle is not saying the appearances are the same, but that one word ζῷον is used to signify two different ideas--a man, and an image. That's one easy example right at the beginning of the study of Reasoning.
@eneamousai
28 күн бұрын
Brilliantly laid out and I agree with the general gist, in terms of the pedagogical purpose of teaching these languages. I believe, however that those embarked on the somewhat quixotic quest to revitalize ancient languages (although it may seem silly at first) have a higher and different ambition. Modern Jews managed to revive the ancient Hebrew language as a patriotic feat, as a way to recapture their heritage and identity, and even to justify the existence of their modern State. Why shouldn't the Church, and more broadly Westerners, try to reclaim some of that heritage linguistically by reviving Latin to a broader use? It could be argued that its sophistication may not be to the level of the extant literature, but with enough time and energy, I believe this can be remedied. Anecdotal evidence of priests somewhere may not be enough proof to discount the entire project. There's plenty of others that have been helped by attempting to learn it orally, e.g. @scorpiomartianus et al. Other than that, I enjoy your perspective. Keep up the good work.
@classicalliberalarts
27 күн бұрын
Ever ask if those "speaking Latin" can fluently read Latin?
@eneamousai
27 күн бұрын
@@classicalliberalarts some can, not all. I see the same case in English and Spanish. I’ve seen many folks with a native fluency speaking level sometimes struggle to read even the literate works of their own tounge, so yes more to your point. I’d say there’s benefit to both, but as far as Christian pedagogical purposes, I suppose reading suffices. But that shouldn’t automatically mark anyone’s ambitions as silly or useless.
@classicalliberalarts
26 күн бұрын
If students can't actually read Latin, then what's the point of their "Latin" studies? People don't struggle to read their own language, but higher level reading. Most who study Latin can't read anything in Latin.
@bhutchin1996
24 күн бұрын
@@classicalliberalartsPolyglot Steve Kaufmann advocates reading above all else. However, it helps to know how the language sounds in your head. Children learn listening and speaking first. Sure, both of us are no longer children, but when we start learning a new language, we're children in that language. Assimil's Latin course with audio is also good if you don't mind the L1 being French, German, or Italian. The Assimil Method has 2 waves, first = passive and second = active. In the passive wave, you do lessons 1-50 by listening and reading, learning vocabulary through 'chunking', acquiring vocabulary in context, and 'shadowing', as Alexander Arguelles suggests. Chunking could be used with the Gold List Method. In the Assimil Method, after finishing the 50th lesson, you'd go back to the 1st lesson and apply the active wave, translating the L2 back into the L1, from the language you're learning back into the language of instruction, Latin back into French in this example. @deka glossai suggests learning a more modern form of a language before learning a more ancient form of it. He said he wished he would've learned modern before Attic Greek because that would've cut down on the time it took him to learn the Attic form. He has a video on learning Latin where he recommends starting with Lingua Latina and then gives a list of which books to read in Latin, starting with medieval authors such as one of the popes. Cicero's method wasn't the only one used in antiquity. The mind palace method was also used by ancient Greeks themselves. One book or one method by itself generally isn't enough to gain fluency in a language. Two or more methods work synergistically to learn a language. Even if you started with Wheeler and learned tons of grammar but not the language itself, I'm sure the grammar helped when you applied Cicero's method.
@johnlardas3221
7 күн бұрын
Do you get into the hymnography of st John Damascene on Koine? It has the benefit of being metrical poetry, translated multiple ways, and largely still in use
@classicalliberalarts
7 күн бұрын
Anything relating to accent or meter would be studied in/through prosody, the fourth part of the art of Grammar.
@philalethes216
24 күн бұрын
I have a novice level understanding of Latin and a compilation of some works by Tacitus in the language. Do you think translating the latter with the aid of a dictionary by using a pencil in the margins would be a helpful exercise or should I stick to self-teaching until I can do it without a dictionary (this could take literally forever)?
@classicalliberalarts
24 күн бұрын
The problem here is that Tacitus would not be an appropriate source for learning the language, The content is too foreign to the reader. Learning would begin with a source of real Latin whose content the student was familiar with. This is why we start with St. Jerome's translation of the Bible for Christian students. For non- Christian students, I would recommend starting with a text that is simple, after reading thetext in English and learning it's content. Cicero's "Letters to Friends" can be used for this purpose because the language is simple.
@philalethes216
24 күн бұрын
@@classicalliberalarts Thanks. I’ll get some more elementary texts.
@SG-df6pi
23 күн бұрын
I like how confident he is off his program. I will take it. However, I am more inclined in purchasing his $125 program. Does it include submissions to get correction?
@classicalliberalarts
23 күн бұрын
Yes, expositions of the Latin and grading included.
@joca3894
27 күн бұрын
How do you teach the grammar? What text(books) do you use for the grammar? I appreciate your fresh perspective on classical language acquisition here.
@classicalliberalarts
27 күн бұрын
The key to studying Grammar is to do so as you're immersed in real Latin (or Greek) reading. In our native languages, we do not study Grammar before we begin speaking. We are immersed in the language and then we begin studying Grammar and improving our own use of the language. We should do the same in other languages. I lead Academy students through a reference Grammar which, after becoming familiar with during their school years, they can refer to for the rest of their lives.
@20marc00
25 күн бұрын
How many times would you repeat the translation exercise on a given passage? So let’s say Latin-English-Latin 3 times for example? And you do not make any notes about the unknown vocabulary?
@classicalliberalarts
25 күн бұрын
The translation exercise should be repeated until the translation of each word can be given without any external assistance. What unknown vocabulary would there be?
@dlopez777
27 күн бұрын
What are your thoughts on Google Translate and new ai translator tools?
@classicalliberalarts
27 күн бұрын
Are their translations accurate?
@danielvso
28 күн бұрын
Wrong in so many levels. Sad.
@Eric_Lichtenberg
28 күн бұрын
My immediate impression is that Mr. William C. Michael is advocating an essentially pragmatic reason for classical education (learn the language skills so you can do something) rather than seeing it as a means of developing the student as a person. Thoughts?
@Husband_wife18
28 күн бұрын
Rather than stating that he’s “wrong on so many levels. Sad.” It would be more productive and perhaps helpful to state why you believe he’s “wrong on so many levels.” Your comment is useless and helpful to no one.
@jesusthroughmary
28 күн бұрын
What levels would those be?
@classicalliberalarts
27 күн бұрын
"Rather than seeing it as a means of developing the student as a person. " What does this even mean, realistically? One does not need a classical education to "develop as a person". Hardly anyone in history ever studied the classical liberal arts--does that mean no one could "develop as a person"? Of course not. Classical education is pursue by those seeking learned professions and contemplative life. It has nothing to do with modern compulsory education or "personal development".
@Eric_Lichtenberg
27 күн бұрын
@@classicalliberalarts Interesting. I am intrigued by the varying philosophies behind why people pursue classical education. Seems like schools such as Memoria Press advocate character development and thinking skills, etc. as development of the student as a person.
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