i think knockout would be super interesting, it is the main game i think of as a "gamepigeon original" although it would definitely be more complicated to implement since there are wayyy more than 4 possible moves
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
that is my second favorite game on there (Not including chess)
@roazim
Ай бұрын
do word hunt. seems pretty easy to code. you'll probably have to use a dictionary api tho
@user-ws7kp1yh9l
Ай бұрын
Chess, Ataxx, Go
@cocoacocoabeansbeans
Ай бұрын
Hello! I am ItsAsShrimpleAsThat, the person who created the engine you tested yours against. I was originally going to make a video about mine, but now that this video exists (with an engine that works nearly identical to mine), so I probably won't anymore. I would love to see the code open sourced so I can compare the differences to see exactly what is making it take 3 hours to search to a depth of 18. Great video though! Hope to see more great work in the future!
@aze4308
Ай бұрын
nice
@user-ws7kp1yh9l
Ай бұрын
nice
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Gonna open source it soon :) busy with work and a game jam rn
@Judbutnotspud
Ай бұрын
I’m not gonna lie I think Monte Carlo tree search would play significantly better, but cool video nonetheless!
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
I have never heard of that, gonna spend 30 minutes at work reading about it lmao Edit: I just read up on how it works and that’s super interesting. Never thought about that before. Thank you!
@computerKwastaken
Ай бұрын
@@JoeCoup1 Any plans to implement it in an updated video? This video seems pretty cool
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Either that or I implement it in a different game. Do you have any ideas for a game?
@ianmoore5502
Ай бұрын
@JoeCoup1 it would be legendary
@bartekoo2197
Ай бұрын
@@JoeCoup1connect four?
@AydensWorkshop
Ай бұрын
Saw your video on my KZitem homepage. Great video!
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Awesome! Thank you!
@Mr.MaccaMan
Ай бұрын
Underrated asl but I got a feeling this will blow up
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Thanks man, I’m hoping it will too :)
@matts.1352
Ай бұрын
There's a strategy to these type of games that min-max doesn't notice at lower depths. The key is that "score" doesn't matter at all, control of the board does. You want to grow towards the middle as quickly as possible. From there, you want to grow to the corners as quickly as possible (not the starting corners, but the other two). This cuts the opponent off from most of the board making it impossible for them to gain a majority of squares. You can do this in three stages: first use A* to travel towards the middle as quickly as possible. Second use min-max to travel towards the corners while maximizing "control" of the board (i.e. squares that are closer to you than to your opponent). Third, once you've expanded as far as possible towards the corners, use min-max to optimize control of squares that aren't totally blocked-off by you or the opponent. Not strictly the most optimal strategy, but it runs faster on larger boards or when more colors are involved. Genetic algorithms may be able to converge on a better strategy given enough training.
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Interesting! I thought about a similar idea but I wanted to try and solve the game, so if I solved it then it didn’t matter. However my code was just too slow to solve it and maybe something like this would have been useful
@Pystro
Ай бұрын
You could probably modify this AI very easily by weighing the squares by how strategically valuable they are. I.e. score for player A is the sum of [distance from A corner] for all squares controlled by A. Similar for B; And then as usual the advantage is the difference of the scores. My initial thought would have been to use the distance from the starting square as the weight, specifically Manhattan distance. But that would weigh something along the edge the same as something in the center (and Euclidian distance is even worse). You could also use [distance from one of the edges adjacent to your start] times [distance from the other edge], or for short X*Y, but that would place basically zero weight on the edge positions, unless you do (A+7)*(B+7)-7² or something like that, where you can tweak the exact value you add. If you simplify this, you see that it's actually A*B +(7A +7B), or a small amount of the multiplied weight with a larger amount of the Manhattan distance weight.
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
I saw something similar for chess where they used like a hashmap to store where each piece had a value associated with a square, center tending to be the best. Would be interesting and probably work
@tomtravis858
Ай бұрын
In this case I would be very surprised if it mattered, board control is already being considered because of how deep it is searching, if the ai searching a branch where it fails to properly handle board control then it will score less and be less favored.
@Pystro
Ай бұрын
@@tomtravis858 Yes, board control doesn't _really_ matter, *if* you just look far enough ahead. But you can say the same about the score; *if* you look far enough ahead then you only need to know who holds more area, not _how much_ more. The differences between score functions _theoretically_ don't matter, but they come into effect if you can't look enough moves ahead to cover the whole game, or if you do A-B pruning. If the score more accurately reflects who is going to win, then you can get away with looking less moves ahead, and you can prune more aggressively, speeding up the AI. Then again, the score functions should agree at the point where the game is finished. Which the score function that I proposed doesn't. If there's a single center square and 2 or more edge squares available, my AI would _ALWAYS_ prefer the center square, even in the end game. You probably need to interpolate between a position- and control-quantifying function and the pure score based on how many squares are still up for grabs.
@angelfire9622
Ай бұрын
Really nice, I never heard about this game but it's cool seeing minimax used for other things than a chess engine or tic tac toe
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Yup! Mini max is fun to see in games. I want to use it more/use other game solver algorithms
@DB_RR
Ай бұрын
this guy seems like someone i would've been best friends with when i was five seriously this guy is awesome
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Thanks man
@qu765
Ай бұрын
how more advanced game solver programs work is instead of using an arbitrary heuristic like your pieces vs their pieces they do this: First the make it with min max with an arbitrary heuristic and simulate a ton of games and moves do every game to completion but they store every move very carefully then they use that as training data to train a machine learning model to be able to predict which side will win then they use min max algorithm again but instead of an arbitrary heuristic, they use the ai model. With a better heuristic, a better game solver, sooo they do a lot more simulating and genereating more new better training data they then make a new ML model to predict the winner from that then use that to make more training data to make anouther model and on and on and on then eventually you have something really really good
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
That’s very interesting! Thank you
@tracer8115
Ай бұрын
Great video, the editing was super clean and easy to follow. I’d love to read your implementation!
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
thank you! I gotta get working on cleaning it up lol
@timbobjones7096
Ай бұрын
Good work! My only qualm with the video is that it doesn’t last longer. You have a sensual voice! I repeated this video many times last night for the sake of the algorithm and also my pleasure.
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
I was wondering why I kept getting views from the same IP
@Andrew-jh2bn
Ай бұрын
I have a hunch that a transposition table could be a huge speed up for this game.
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
I was thinking this as well, just didn’t implement it
@qwertyfreak0
Ай бұрын
Great video! Although youtube algo scaring me, i literally just did this like last month. Give a shot into move ordering and transposition tables to speed things up :) theres a LOT that can be done!
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Hmm I don’t know about those! Gonna look into it
@tamirco_
Ай бұрын
Great video but I had no idea what "Game Pigeon" was, so the title and beginning was pretty confusing.
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Hmm, I figured that might happen. Do you use android? Game pigeon is an IOS exclusive, but it’s very popular among IOS users
@tamirco_
Ай бұрын
@@JoeCoup1 I use Android, and iMessage is also not as popular where I live (and frankly I think it's not very popular outside of the States at all).
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
yeah pretty sure that is true, thanks for watching the video regardless!
@NolanHOfficial
Ай бұрын
@@JoeCoup1why not androd
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
wdym? Why don't I have android? My phone was a gift that's why. As to why game pigeon is not on android, it probably has to do with how imessage is different than a standard text
@itsnottylor4011
Ай бұрын
Did you implement alpha beta pruning in your bot? There is no need to continue down the worst options for more than a couple moves. This would drastically minimize the computing time, because you're not checking exponentially many cases anymore.
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
I did! I started editing/explaining alpha beta pruning in the video and it just was too much for what I wanted the video to be. I didn’t want to lose people from seeing the end result by explaining a topic that could be a bit confusing
@user-ws7kp1yh9l
Ай бұрын
Have you tried transposition tables/iterative deepening? It should speed up search quite a bit if you don’t have that
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
I have not! Maybe in a future video
@fungi1
Ай бұрын
i love your banner and profile picture
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Thank you :)
@DanDart
Ай бұрын
I have played several single player versions of this, haven't had anyone to play the multiplayer ones. I wonder who invented the concept?
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Idk! The first I’d ever seen it was on game pigeon
@maker0824
Ай бұрын
This feels like you don’t even need to use minimax for this
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Are you saying just do the color with the most squares each turn? If that was the case then it’s pretty easy to beat, you can just go section off a big portion of the board and you will win
@kimnasayao5549
Ай бұрын
great video!!! you got yourself a new subscriber
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Thank you!
@Philyshark7
Ай бұрын
I made this for filler too but my computer couldn't run it 😭
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Lmao, that’s funny
@denatle
Ай бұрын
alpha-beta pruning is simple, you should've implemented it
@denatle
Ай бұрын
nvm, you did. i guess it is python slowness than
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Maybe, I thought that. I tried doing Cython but I couldn’t get it to compile and decided it wasn’t worth it
@denatle
Ай бұрын
@@JoeCoup1 i think i will try remaking this project in go or zig some time. just to see how fast can it be
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Lmk if you do! :)
@denatle
Ай бұрын
@@JoeCoup1 thank you for inspiration :3
@mankifg
Ай бұрын
great video :)
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Thank you :)
@umikaliprivate
Ай бұрын
I think you can just calculate which color is the most common next to your color border, and switch to that color.
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
But sometimes the color that is less common will lead to a better board later on, like sometimes choosing a “worse” move will make your opponents move bad therefore making it a good move
@Philyshark7
Ай бұрын
This is like saying in chess you can just take the highest value piece you can with no consideration for anything else
@umikaliprivate
Ай бұрын
@@Philyshark7 I would argue this is not really the same, because chess is a very complex game, where very importantly the opponents interact a lot with each other.
@Philyshark7
Ай бұрын
@@umikaliprivate In filler the opponents also interact for example choosing a color blocks the opponent from choosing the color; and where you expand also changes where you should expand. Its the difference in being shortsided with attacks vs looking ahead
@noobyplayz2840
Ай бұрын
i didnt know this puzzle game had a 2 player verison
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
What is the one player version called?
@Starwort
Ай бұрын
This shouldn't have been ended at this step; green doesn't quite have half the board yet. I'd guess you're counting all pieces of the active colour rather than only those in the filled group, which could affect strategy
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
If I remember correctly it’s because it detected a win 12 moves ahead
@Starwort
Ай бұрын
@@JoeCoup1 fair enough; IMO for a proper AI it should still take the game to a guaranteed win (i.e. no combination of moves prevent a win; this is automatically the case when you control 1 square more than 50% of the board; so branches can end there rather than at the conclusion of the game), but this explanation makes sense (and the correct follow up, yellow, is trivially obvious)
@bobshenanigans4256
16 күн бұрын
If you want to make it a lot faster, you can use a language other than Python. Python is convenient but runs far slower than almost anything else.
@JoeCoup1
16 күн бұрын
Yeah I thought about that but I had made it already and didn’t feel like using c++
@bobshenanigans4256
16 күн бұрын
@@JoeCoup1 Completely reasonable
@Andrew-jh2bn
Ай бұрын
Did you try playing multiple games against the other person's ai? With enough games played out you should see the random noise go away and have a clearer picture of which one plays better.
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
No I didn’t, it took a long time for 1 game (15 minutes) and was annoying to setup the board positions
@DavidThomas005
Ай бұрын
Beautiful concept. With some better editing and video structure you can pop off man.
@DavidThomas005
Ай бұрын
Right now it feels like there are large chunks of highly edited and large chunks of completely unedited parts of the video. The ending was extremely abrupt and felt like you rushed to finishing the video. With just some practice on creating a winning formula your content is bound to succeed. Absolutely loved the video but I think there is a ton of Enhancement that can still be made. Wishing you the best man
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Thanks man! I agree, I just need more practice but I’m getting better :)
@sneak_panda
Ай бұрын
maybe add some music? idk
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
thought about that, I kind of agree
@mathematicalmachinery7934
Ай бұрын
Do you think you could optimize it by measuring the area within the border instead of the area currently claimed? For example, at 5:00 or 5:01 (after claiming cyan then green), there is an area of 7 blocks in the lower right that you don't have to worry about your opponent claiming
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Yes! I thought about this but I was trying to get my code to see far enough out that it wouldn’t matter. I wanted it to realize it was suboptimal by just scanning the entire game possibilities. However it was too slow, so something like what you suggest probably would improve its strength a bit
@k4kadu
Ай бұрын
that's fun
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
I agree :)
@darqed
Ай бұрын
really cool video for only 500 views
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Thank you! :)
@aze4308
Ай бұрын
nice
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Thanks!
@electraheart5749
Ай бұрын
Never heard of that game before
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Game pigeon or Filler?
@electraheart5749
Ай бұрын
@@JoeCoup1 Filler, though I haven't heard of either. I am just here to watch you grow, came because of TFT
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
I haven’t played TFT since I started that video on it lmao. I really like the game but it’s hard for me to just play casually and not devote 6 hours a day to it
@viceversaanimates7398
Ай бұрын
Bro this video did waaaay too bad for what it is. Geez.
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Wdym?
@Malikx
Ай бұрын
@@JoeCoup1 hes talking about the views he saying it got way to little views for how good it is
@JoeCoup1
Ай бұрын
Oooo, I think this is my best video but it’s really niche so idk how it will do
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