𝗱𝗦𝗰𝗿𝘆𝗯 - Get finely crafted boxed text for your RPG game ▶▶ www.dscryb.com/thedmlair - Use coupon code THEDMLAIR for 10% off! 𝐋𝐚𝐢𝐫 𝐌𝐚𝐠𝐚𝐳𝐢𝐧𝐞 - Monthly D&D magazine with 5e adventures and DM resources ▶▶ www.patreon.com/thedmlair 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐃𝐌 𝐋𝐚𝐢𝐫 𝐒𝐭𝐨𝐫𝐞 - Get back issues of Lair magazine ▶▶ the-dm-lair.myshopify.com/
@Gevaudan1471
3 жыл бұрын
Hey do you happen to have a link or copy of the survey that you use?
@SM-dm3wg
3 жыл бұрын
Hey, this might be a lot to ask but, in which tier for May is the tattoo system? I really want that specific content. Cheers! - Edit, I found the list description on the other video :P
@nurthimothyflupefiasco309
3 жыл бұрын
Railroading v.s. free agency...its a fine line to walk
@jgr7487
3 жыл бұрын
DM: "have this adventure hook" players: "RAILROADING!"
@baka030hydroid
3 жыл бұрын
That's how it is more often than not unfortunately
@jgr7487
3 жыл бұрын
@River Wynaut!
@jgr7487
3 жыл бұрын
@River you too.
@Grigeral
3 жыл бұрын
@@baka030hydroid Not even in the slightest. Unless you're joining a game that is designed to be open and have no storyline, expect at least some level of railroading... It is impossible for the majority of people to successfully incorporate a story into a game 'without' angling players towards one hook or another...
@Grigeral
3 жыл бұрын
In that particular instance, it's not even taking away player agency... It's having something affect the characters contacts in some way. They don't 'have' to go and stop it, they can ignore it entirely. By counting that as removing player agency, any single plot hook you can possibly think of can in some way end up being claimed as it.
@charlotteanneaton1143
3 жыл бұрын
Pre-detirmining how the party has to handle a challenge is railroading. Having quests with high stakes and time-limits is not only not railroading, but not a bad thing in any way shape or form. Unless your group just want to fool around, those are often the best sort of adventure.
@westcoastgeeks7294
3 жыл бұрын
The group I am currently DM ing, always complains of being railroaded. So now I just that most sessions like a one shot. With very little hooks or quests. So now they complain about not having anything to do. I found this way easier to prepare for. Instead of the 3-4 hours I used to put in, on quest and story hooks. That most of the time they would refuse to go on.
@matrimalviarin5043
3 жыл бұрын
Taking away their stuff does kill the fun for the players, though
@westcoastgeeks7294
3 жыл бұрын
@@matrimalviarin5043 Not taking anything away but a major story plot. They don't even take the quest or hook, or leave in the middle of it. So I treat each session as a 1 shot. This way I don't waste my time.
@matrimalviarin5043
3 жыл бұрын
@@westcoastgeeks7294 I was referring to the DM Lair's actions in the story, not your own. I understand that frustration, which is why, as a player, I try to leap at any plot hook the DM sets in front of us. The DM hasn't planned anything other than what he's planned, so the plot hook is the DM's best foot forward. Railroading is usually everything in between.
@timraner1838
3 жыл бұрын
Taking away agency is generally what villains tend to like to do. Give possible hints that things are happening before hand. I see it all the time give ultimatum A or B and often people will choose C. Also just because you give a scenario that leads you down a path doesn’t mean it’s bad. This sounds much more like a player and DM style clash not any issue with the adventures.
@AdmiralSpaceAmoeba
3 жыл бұрын
I agree. Having the world react to my actions as a player, and respond accordingly makes things feel alive. The world shouldn't just wait for you to do things, it lives and breathes and moves on its own. Sometimes to the player's benefit or detriment. As a DM sometimes I'll present my players with 2 or 3 potential plot hooks to follow, and they end up meandering around too much and pursuing none of them (especially when I've done prep work for them). So, to save me a headache, one of those hooks will come to them. However, I think what his point was the overdoing it, forcing the player's hands too much too often can leave them feeling like they have no choice. Letting things breathe and mellow out between those moments makes tense situations which demand a immediate choice/response feel more urgent and impactful.
@kenyonelliott2628
2 жыл бұрын
I agree also, these hooks are perfect, they effect the players and will feel so much better to them when they overcome the challenges
@kenyonelliott2628
2 жыл бұрын
The dragon plot though is where it got a bit too much. They should have had more agency on how to overcome the swamp and get after the gith
@Harbinger99
3 жыл бұрын
My players need a railroad. If I give them the choice to do anything they will choose to do nothing.
@Tachi2407
3 жыл бұрын
It's a totally false dichotomy. Both railroading and tossing players in with no plot hooks are two extremes which, to nobody's surprise, almost always fail. You can fall anywhere on the scale from "one plot hook that you get a choice in approaching" to "no overarching goal, just a setting with rumours and opportunities", depending on the group, but if the players don't do anything, it's almost always the GM failing to present their world or the story.
@Harbinger99
3 жыл бұрын
@@Tachi2407 My players are not very proactive. Most of them will sit and wait for me to tell them what they are supposed to do. They don't ask questions. they don't search for clues. They are perfectly content to do nothing until the story hits them over the head. In a Call of Cthulhu game once the plot hook was dangled in front of them, they said not my farm, not my pig and went home. Occasionally they will pull a Knights of the Dinner Table and focus obsessively on some piece of background color that I mention in passing.
@gnarthdarkanen7464
3 жыл бұрын
FOR whatever it's worth... I think what Maciej was getting at is that most adventures are a weird hybrid of choices and railroads... You (as GM) present a few choices in Plot-hooks... and then watch how the Players tease them out and interpret before they act... THEN there's a series of actions and counter-actions that go on regardless of how anybody involved necessarily would prefer to act... and then another relatively open set of choices... I like to limit my "operative" plot-hooks to three or so. It reduces the amount of game prep and I can still enrich a fine series of encounters and story-building operations to fill a game session or two with whatever choices the Party makes on their whim... Then there's a general sense of "this is the direction we're going"... SO my job (as GM) is to put counterpressure on them, but not so much as to facilitate them giving up or changing the adventure... You don't want the Party to walk into a Dungeon and then debate a moment and say, "Um.... nope. We're not bothering with this lair of the Ice Queen BS... We're going to the tropics to randomly interrogate a Nymph or a Dryad... uh... whichever comes up first." SO most adventures are a sort of hybrid... There are places where decisions (even small ones) have big repercussions... AND then there's a whole series of steps where almost "all the roads still lead to Rome"... and you keep the adventure sort of knitted together that way for most groups... Yours isn't particularly unique... AND I rather enjoy tossing a few (3) different hooks to different adventures out in the setting at a time... Eventually (usually) they'll handle all 3... BUT almost nobody bothers to take note of that part either... thankfully. ;o)
@taragnor
3 жыл бұрын
Yeah it varies by player and group. Some groups will want proactivity and enjoy the sandbox aspect, other groups just want the DM to give them a hard objective. It's really only railroading if the players are forced into it. A lot of groups welcome direction.
@DrNitroGecko
3 жыл бұрын
@@Harbinger99 I know that feeling very well. That happened last week to me. They had planned something the week before, and then decided to throw everything over board over something I mentioned in passing at the beginning of this session. They spent hours looking for something, even after I made obvious to them, that it was futile. They even ran away from an encounter to continue their search...
@Lcirex
3 жыл бұрын
Wait...... Gary let Fat Cat die? Ohhhh for shame Gary! I will never forgive you for denying me my cat and kobold shenanigans that could have been!
@kevinlinsley9594
3 жыл бұрын
"I'm the one that bought all the miniatures" That shit cracked me up
@gohantanaka
3 жыл бұрын
Ha ha! That’s my DM.
@Axiom_Link
3 жыл бұрын
While the joke is funny, I find it’s true more often than not. 🤪 Most players just show up to play-zero effort on their part. As a DM you are incredibly lucky if your players spend any time at all even learning their character sheets, putting forth effort into learning their abilities inside and out, supplying food for the group, bringing their own minis... which is why I giggle when players cry about a railroad. I’m like, “you did zero thinking about this game, or prep to make this game happen and now you’re complaining that it’s not what you want to do? Guess what? You get to DM now and I get to play for once” 😂😂😂
@kevinlinsley9594
3 жыл бұрын
@@Axiom_Link I agree. Im about to DM for the first time. Excited for all the ups and downs hahaha
@timkramar9729
3 жыл бұрын
"I pick the door on the left. " It's a tiger. "Okay, I remember this from before. I pick the door on the right. " It's a tiger.
@gnarthdarkanen7464
3 жыл бұрын
Yep... all roads lead to Rome... ;o)
@SteveLHarris
3 жыл бұрын
All roads lead to Barovia
@brianna6377
2 жыл бұрын
I recall this movie from seventh or eighth grade that the ELA teacher had us watch. Behind one door was a tiger; the other a woman the man would be forced to wed. This was in consequence to him having a love-affair with the chief's daughter, who learned the answer before the man was faced with these doors and was able to communicate which door he should pick. The movie tried to make the ending ambiguous to which door she led him to, but the beginning of the movie told the answer. I brought it up to my ELA teacher and he was completely oblivious that it had happened. Long story short: the man was eaten by a tiger. Apparently the woman didn't like sharing her lover.
@kevinwheeler7427
3 жыл бұрын
My players have a tendency to roleplay in a way where they avoid adventure hooks. Had to sit down with them before last week's game and tell them "Hey, you've finished the job for this salvage ship, you've got clues and personal things your characters are working on, I'm gonna need you guys to commit to something, anything by the end of the session so I can actually prepare something for next week."
@varenoftatooine2393
3 жыл бұрын
Sounds like bead player behavior.
@MonkeyJedi99
3 жыл бұрын
It's not always railroading when the party is forced to either fight the bear or die. They did sneak into the bear's den and poke the bear after all...
@AggroJordan86
3 жыл бұрын
Last time I was this early DMs were still horsecarting their players !
@joeydk
3 жыл бұрын
Just wondering how you would've changed the Tolokonsky's revenge scenario. The vibes I get from this villain are: smart, scheming and non-brute-force. If he just attacked the players to get his collection back, that would feel out of character, and if he didn't do anything, that would take away the consequences of their actions.
@Sceadusawol
3 жыл бұрын
Becomes a problem when your BBEG is just smarter than your players' characters, doesn't it?
@theDMLair
3 жыл бұрын
The issue was not with the bad guy himself. That Adventure was perfectly fine as I wrote it. Sometimes players will have crappy choices to make. The larger issue that I'm referring to is that I did this multiple times over the course of several adventures. And it all started to add up. I'm referring to that pattern that happened over many many many game sessions. The issue was not with the individual Adventure itself.
@joeydk
3 жыл бұрын
@@theDMLair Oh I see, so it's more a campaign related issue than an adventure related issue. Yeah I can see how the players might start to have some problems with that than. Thx for the answer :)
@Arcticmaster1190
3 жыл бұрын
@@theDMLair Yeah, nail them once, it’s happenstance. Second time, you give them a warning and that gives them time to prepare for the next attack (which would make sense, since the party would be more on guard and have their ears to the wall for further attacks). Even if it’s just a rumor they hear after they get back from the adventure, give them the choice to face it - which will give them a chance to defend themselves (and maybe level up if it’s enough). Also, screw your for that Black Dragon encounter. As Black Dragons have VERY HOSTILE ENVIRONMENTS AND FAVOR SURPRISE TACTICS, that was probably the most dickish thing I’ve seen you do to date. XD Maybe that’s just me and my preference to have Dragons avoid the party as much as possible or playing far smarter than adventurers on the regular. I think the trick is basically give them a chance to defend themselves, give them some out that isn’t always combat (maybe they could negotiate the problem or something)- just things you’ve advised before.
@FrostSpike
3 жыл бұрын
@@theDMLair Maybe the party just painted themselves into corners more than once with the decisions that they made? That thing with the trolls wasn't really "railroading" either IMO, the trolls were literally trying (in game) to corral them - the options might be to run, to engage head on, to hide and ambush, to distract and lay a false trail, to try and find allies, etc. It's just a situation that's arisen.
@eliericksson.8950
3 жыл бұрын
I love how the barbarian calls the DM "Mr. Dungeon Master Sir"... My players just call me by my nickname that is just my shortened name lol... I kind of wish they called me "Mr. Dungeon Master Sir" lol
@TaberIV
3 жыл бұрын
Giving the players an impossible choice isn't railroading, because they can always do the dumb thing. Railroading is the players saying they want to do the thing, and the DM saying no.
@jackplant8045
3 жыл бұрын
There's no wrong way tonplay the game but for me consequences aren't railroading. If players want to roam around doing whatever they want without any kind of repercussions they should go play Skyrim. I enjoy D&D for good collaborative storytelling, not player wish fulfillment.
@elminster298
3 жыл бұрын
You missed the point of the entire video. It wasn't the consequences of there greedy actions that was the problem. It was the repeated railroading through multiple adventures INCLUDING the one you are talking about that was the problem.
@intergalactic92
3 жыл бұрын
This all sounds unfortunate. I don’t see a problem with the villain taking revenge in this way, there should be consequences for their actions, forcing a time limit on the portal seems a bit harsh though, and the fact that it all led to a series of linear encounters is probably what pissed everyone off.
@agsilverradio2225
3 жыл бұрын
I had more or less the sake thoughts.
@Yojack872
3 жыл бұрын
In my expirence through DM'ing 1 Campaign, Railroading is something you do but the important part is for your players to THINK they aren't being railroaded. Give them tons of freedom but get in their head and think what they'll do and move the plot to where they are and where they're going.
@shadowlord1418
2 жыл бұрын
Depends on the players some will decide their own paths and you just need to pave it
@LordOz3
3 жыл бұрын
It sounds like Tolokonsky's revenge was triggered by the players' decision to get greedy. So I wouldn't consider his actions to be railroading - but they should have found something in his lair to prove their innocence and two routes out - one leading back home so they can clear their name, and one leading to another adventure such as the dragon swamp. You could even tempt them - do they take the risk of trying to break into Tolokonsky's vault - risky with the arriving horde and sure provoke further ire, or take their win and beat feet? If they choose the vault, Tolokonsky will continue to plot revenge, but if they decide discretion is the better part of valor then Tolokonsky might decide they're not worth expending more resources.
@valekraine
3 жыл бұрын
Yea agreed here that is not taking agency that is just delayed consequence for their own actions. If you consider that taking agency away then your players won't ever feel like they have any consequences going against any rules and thus murderhobos eventually get born. Also to be fair they had a choice as well, when the guard comes to arrest them they could have fought back, ran away, etc so them succumbing to it was their choice and thus more consequences. It is a game but even GTA has 5 star mechanic.
@davidpoudrier4132
3 жыл бұрын
This very much explains why on one DM's adventure, I was not having fun. The DM did this kind of thing over and over again to each of our characters and to the overall plot choices, and I'm glad that the campaign ended. I was too new to know that I could give feedback. I'm not sure if his story plot could have handled criticism.
@tannerray5014
3 жыл бұрын
If I tried the orphan thing, then my players would definitely try and save them. But only because orphans make the best child soldiers.
@agsilverradio2225
3 жыл бұрын
Lawfull Evil group?
@tannerray5014
3 жыл бұрын
@@agsilverradio2225 You could say that. They appreciate a good impressionable soldier.
@28mmRPG
3 жыл бұрын
I use the "hidden railroad"... the players have a map, but I never place my encounters/lairs on the map, I keep it loose as possible. That way, the players can choose their direction and explore, but my "main lair" is on the map where the group bites into.
@matrimalviarin5043
3 жыл бұрын
The best railroad is the one laid by the players. You give them a target and a location, and they will make your railroad for you as a warpath towards the desired goal
@zacharyjamesstrickland
3 жыл бұрын
"I never thought the Rogue would deliver a sleazy plug," made my day.
@broke_af_games9661
3 жыл бұрын
Such a fine line. I'm not sure I 100% agree with everything. It's a game and story and I'm not sure having consequence free situations are okay. I think you could have done more to lead up to the drug deal framing and could have made a side story of it. I think that would have been a dynamic story and the perfect middle ground
@SyverReborn
3 жыл бұрын
Love the skits, love to info and love the channel, it has really helped me avoid some of the DM pit falls So thank you luke and may all ur rolls be nat20s
@thefrozenyak5272
3 жыл бұрын
Well, maybe not all of his rolls when he's DMing. That would be brutal for his players. I had something like that happen with a group of players once back in 3E. The minor bad guy (this was low level, like a level 3 party tops) got crits 3 rounds in a row with his greatsword.
@SyverReborn
3 жыл бұрын
@@thefrozenyak5272 good point
@VeRG1L_47
3 жыл бұрын
Sometimes you need to force players for the narrative. Dragon destroying a town is a forced gameplay. Crumbling mage tower is a forced gameplay. Lich ascending to godhood is a forced gameplay. But without it story would be dull.
@elminster298
3 жыл бұрын
REPEATED USE OF RAILROADING IS THE PROBLEM! Yes, an adventure or quest relies on a reason to be there, to do something, to move forward. However, that thing that is the reason should never control all of the players actions. As a GM you need to find a way to allow your players to make choices that matter. If all you want are players that go where you want and do want you want then write a book.
@Axiom_Link
3 жыл бұрын
@@elminster298 yeah, but I wouldn’t say these characters were railroaded on any of these 3 scenarios. They always had options from what he said it’s just that the players didn’t feel like they had options because the bad guys were smarter than the players. Which I get it, the human element makes it really difficult to stay sharp under duress and the DM knew ahead of time what was going to happen. But no matter how you slice it, the characters always had options even if they didn’t realize it.
@elminster298
3 жыл бұрын
@@Axiom_Link and you are blind as a bat if you can't see how the player's agency was removed in all of the situations. Again, it's not bad or wrong for it to happen once in a while because that is a natural part of playing the game and making decisions in real time. The problem is when they happen back to back too many times. It makes it feel far worse than it would if they were spread out.
@Axiom_Link
3 жыл бұрын
@@elminster298 brilliant assessment, I bet you’re tons of toxic fun at a game table. If you think the players had zero choices then you’re not applying yourself. I can think of at least 2 choices right out the gate for all 3 scenarios, and I can list them in a bullet format if you need me to.
@elminster298
3 жыл бұрын
@@Axiom_Link you have no clue what player agency means. It is not my job to educate you. You are arguing this flimsy nebulous idea of choice as if it is player agency and you are wrong. I understand how it can be hard to defend something without knowing the definitions. I highly recommend you go do some research. Come back when you have something more than "feels" to talk about.
@adverseflower9551
3 жыл бұрын
I think one of the major problems that might have contributed to this is how often the enemies escaped. They didn’t get the satisfaction of getting rid of the people who forced their hands. Also I don’t know about the first 2 scenarios, but you definitely said that they weren’t rewarded for fighting the ancient black dragon. So maybe if they were rewarded they would’ve felt more content with the more linear story.
@mevensen
3 жыл бұрын
I agree, to me the bigger issue is a lack or resolution or reward over multiple sessions. Everyone got away, no significant treasure or other reward was mentioned.
@erc1971erc1971
3 жыл бұрын
This video is a perfect example of how different people enjoy different things. If I had one of my bad guys steal their property, imprison their servants and falsely accuse them of crimes...my player's would gleefully have their characters hunt down said bad guy and treat him to a whooping while having fun the whole way. On the flip side, my issue with that particular plot would be too much combat. Go to the astral plane and fight, then fight more. Then go to the swamp where you described more fights and fights and fights. I would be missing the chance to slow down and do some roleplaying and character growth. Neither of the two things I mentioned are objectively good or bad, but could be subjectively good or bad depending on your players, and making sure you are aware of how player's are enjoying the content is important - especially if you have not been playing with them for a long time.
@joem1480
3 жыл бұрын
The air clearing helped a lot. Things feel more balanced now.
@TabooX1984
3 жыл бұрын
Your post makes one think you're a part of one of his groups that got "railroaded". Do you enjoy high-power gaming? Just wondering because from his description that seems how things were getting run. 👍
@joem1480
3 жыл бұрын
@@TabooX1984 it wasn't about power gaming or even actually being Railroaded, he even says in the video that it wasn't true railroading. What was going on was for about 3 to 4 months of gaming sessions seeing that we play two sessions a month, effectively we did not have choice in what we were going to do. None of us had a problem with any of the individual things that were happening or the individual Quest. It just was a series of things that happened one right after the other that effectively left us on a singular path for a very long time. This was a big change from the fact that we were always getting multiple choices of what our next adventure was prior to this because this is an Acquisitions Incorporated campaign.
@Karantu14
3 жыл бұрын
I have to say, in my own humble personal opinion. The players brought it upon themselves. If I was a player in that campaign, I would have loved to play those 2 scenarios, instead of being directly ambushed and killed by the BBEG
@Tachi2407
3 жыл бұрын
Yeah, only thing I could say was poorly handled was "two portals, both are horrible in the same way". At the very least make the situations different and definitely not "here's a powerful creature with an ultimatum". Something as simple as having the dragon not be immediately hostile would've been enough.
@GoGoRoboto
3 жыл бұрын
They pissed off someone they shouldn't have, AND had warning? Can't be at blame for an action's consequences
@quonomonna8126
3 жыл бұрын
sometimes real life is a railroad and you have no choice, so if that happens in the game that just makes it more immersive
@jedbex7070
3 жыл бұрын
Honestly the first half of the adventure didn’t feel like railroading. That’s life. You did something. Pissed someone off. And now they want revenge. It’s not going to be on your terms, they set the scene because they planned the revenge.
@andyimpens6901
3 жыл бұрын
I was thinking the same thing. The group got in over their heads, that meant their choices got really limited. That’s reality, you can’t just decide to rob The Godfather and not expect revenge. It seems less like a railroad problem and more of a problem of a bunch of actions happening “off screen” that screwed the players and less that the consequences they faced were unrealistic
@jedbex7070
3 жыл бұрын
@@andyimpens6901 Exactly. After a while continually being over your head kinda sucks so I get that. But for the first half I kind of think they’re just dealing with consequences.
@GothmogLives_G40
3 жыл бұрын
I'd say the framing and removal of the player's property are the natural consequences of stealing from a powerful NPC. Nothing is free in life or gaming.
@samleonard2557
3 жыл бұрын
I really wanted this video to go a different direction. I felt a little trapped. Kind of like I was stuck just hearing about what you wanted to talk about. 😜 Great video, and an even better message.
@RIVERSRPGChannel
3 жыл бұрын
Railroading is somewhat over used term too. Sometimes a linear adventures are needed
@elminster298
3 жыл бұрын
As long as you tell your players ahead of time so they know that they won't have as much/any control over the adventure. Most players automatically assume they will have a certain level of control. I can say I would not play in a linear campaign unless I really trusted the GM and it had a set end point as if playing through a novel.
@Axiom_Link
3 жыл бұрын
If I hear one more player piss and moan about being railroaded I’m gonna snap. “Ugh what the hell? I killed 10 people and now the cops are going to arrest me?! Dude that’s railroading!” Further more, most people playing D&D don’t understand that having a sandbox game is actually terribly MOST of the time. They’re too boring as players to come up with content to RP and quest.
@elminster298
3 жыл бұрын
@@Axiom_Link wow. Are you done crying? If you can't properly have a conversation with your party about definitions then that's your problem. That has nothing to do with the video and it barely has anything to do with the OP's comment. Please continue telling everyone how bad you are at dealing with real life social situations.
@Axiom_Link
3 жыл бұрын
@@elminster298 I don’t think anyone here is crying except for you on all these comments because you think you’re the victim. If you’ll notice, no one here agrees with you that this was a railroading and the players had no choice.
@elminster298
3 жыл бұрын
@@Axiom_Link right...no one except Luke who made the video. Admitting it was railroading. Accepting the fact that it wouldn't have been bad if he hadn't done it back to back. All of which I have agreed to this entire time. Man, it must be physically painful to be your level of ignorant. At least, I hope that level of ignorance is painful...
@BomberSteve
3 жыл бұрын
LOL oh i love it when you make the barbarian cry! LOL cracks me up every time! Nice work Luke.
@theDMLair
3 жыл бұрын
Well the Barbarian is a big cry baby. LOL
@tomm35
3 жыл бұрын
It's funny, my players seem to want to be given this sort of railroad. Most recent: they are traveling through some mountains towards a destination. They came across a magic circle that keeps a permanent arctic cold blizzard active. They roll a few knowledge checks and learn that this circle was most likely crafted by hag(s). They find an underground ruin nearby, that could provide shelter from the storm - shelter they desperately needed, with multiple people suffering from exhaustion due to the cold. They turn away from it - "That's probably where the coven is. Lets not." They look around and manage to find the runes that are keeping the spell going (they were buried under the snow) - "Lets just move on." They didn't even discuss about why they *shouldn't* break them before leaving. And I even implied that leaving the blizzard alone will likely freeze them to death. Oh well. Level 3 exhaustion, coming right up! I once asked everyone to write they favorite story ark was in the campaign. It was literally unanimous: "the one where a party members was captured by a bounty hunter and they had to rush to save them."
@backspaceit7961
3 жыл бұрын
Man I love your videos. Keep on keeping on. I've improved as a DM and made games 10 times better since I started watching.
@colmortimer1066
3 жыл бұрын
I think it is good practice to always end a session with an out of character discussion about the game. It could be as simple as giving everyone one a chance to recap their best moments. But the players often will say what they like and don't like, often giving both the DM and other players a chance to interact, not in character but as players. If they don't like the rogue going off on their own quest that gets brought up, or the dm does something like you here. You have the chance to talk it out every session before things build up and become a larger problem. You will often catch little annoyances before they get too big, and either understand where the other person is coming from or giving them a chance to correct any minor issues for next session. And 90% of the time it's just a fun 10-15 minutes of winding down before everyone goes about the rest of their evening. I just find most of the time one person does not realize what they are doing and if the table talks about it they can be like "oh, I'll work on that" and it never goes to the point people want to leave the game. In this story, they would have been like "we felt railroaded today" You could have justified it but odds are next session it would have been in the back of your mind, and you most likely would have avoided, the next railroad, and the next one and so on. And everyone would have had a better time overall.
@davidkunkle405
3 жыл бұрын
Definitely loving intro skits. Keep them going!
@Doughy_in_the_Middle
3 жыл бұрын
2:00 "My Rogue would like to apply his sneak attack bonus to today's sponsor." Well, we don't have a DM any more, so you might as well.
@tkc1129
2 жыл бұрын
Acknowledging mistakes is the sign of a good DM.
@theolddm
3 жыл бұрын
I always find the call of 'Railroading' so fricking irritating. Players always have choices, whether or not it matches what the DM wants. For your first couple of examples, I would not call it railroading at all... it's consequences. You steal from a powerful NPC and honestly don't expect them to come back and try to get revenge? Most revenge plots/actions are limiting. And a choice between two bad outcomes, is still a choice. Sorry, but most of what you described is stuff my players would opt to do anyway (oh we get a chance to kill a dragon? Point me the way). And I do play my NPCs the way an evil, powerful villain would act.. because they would be trying to screw the players at that point. Funny how back in the earlier editions, the term railroading was unheard of. Oh we are playing a module, cool, let's play the module. No whining by players that (during the module) we only have one choice (if you are good players, save the orphans), or only two choices, neither which would be a desirable outcome, etc. Of course, my table is more of a gritty, realistic playstyle.. not the super heroic full on 5e overpowered version. Although, that swamp scenario with unending Trolls and an (almost ancient) black dragon would be pushing the edge even for me. :)
@danielgunther4238
3 жыл бұрын
Hey Luke! I've been GMing since High School myself - Class of 1991! I have to say, I'm a little dumbfounded you feel like you took agency away from your players by having consequences in the game for the actions of their character's. That's not railroading, that's cause and effect - for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. From my perspective, you didn't remove their agency, you empowered their agency. I'd love to be a player in your group based on what you described. Keep up the good work.
@theDMLair
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you I appreciate the kind words. And awesome to meet another dungeon master who's been dming son's High School! I don't think either but they're being consequences for actions of the problem. That's something that I do all the time in my games. I think in this case I was laying things on too thick. I was just going a little overboard. No three of my players were having a great time and didn't have any issues but a couple of we're not having fun with things. And when almost half of your gaming group is not having fun that's a really good opportunity to examine what I'm doing and to see how I can prove you know? I think overall the adventures didn't have any major flaws but they needed some tweaks to make them feel less heavy-handed if that makes sense.
@danielgunther4238
3 жыл бұрын
@@theDMLair, I can definitely appreciate questioning a session when some players aren’t having fun. The stumbles upon which we temper and hone our skills are invaluable.
@SomoneTookMyName
3 жыл бұрын
Honestly, there was not one of those situations that forced the players hand in one direction. Every situation had another option. The players just needed to be a bit creative. I know that I had all sorts of ideas running through my head. I have no doubt my players would of come up with something. They do it all the time.
@timraner1838
3 жыл бұрын
Agreed
@agsilverradio2225
3 жыл бұрын
Good point.
@PilotSun-rg9bh
3 жыл бұрын
Great stuff as always! Your intros are so great. I may have recently done this. Unintentionally of course but in a very similar way. Guess I better fix that. 🤦♂️ What does your Survey look like? I would be interested in seeing that.
@MartinFransham
3 жыл бұрын
Hey Luke, Great channel and Great Advice. I just ordered my copy of "into the fey." Keep up the great work!
@theDMLair
3 жыл бұрын
Awesome. Thank you!
@Skellybeans
3 жыл бұрын
"When Stanley came to a set of two open doors, he entered the door on his left."
@toxacokami7216
3 жыл бұрын
"Choose the form of The Destructor!" -Gozer
@gnarthdarkanen7464
3 жыл бұрын
"The next time someone asks you if you're a god... you say 'YES'!" ~ Winston Zedmore
@bruced648
3 жыл бұрын
there are useful times to use the railroading method. usually it's for a solo adventure to help advance a character. during this adventure, the player still has choices, but there is a narrow path. at the end of this adventure, I usually give the player a significant choice dilemma. when the character rejoins the group, it's up to the player to decide what info is shared. mostly this is a tool to help a character advance a level and have that advancement affect the on-going campaign.
@EpicParsnips
3 жыл бұрын
So, the players in my Icewind dale campaign got their hands on a powerful dagger with magical properties. There was a group of Kobolds that knew about their dagger and wanted to take it so they snuck into their campsite while distracting them and stole it. Is that wrong or forced at all?
@SyverReborn
3 жыл бұрын
As long as you give the PCs a chance of revenge you should be fine
@joem1480
3 жыл бұрын
It is forcing their hands, but that isn't a bad thing in and of itself. He is referring to forcing the players hands multiple times in a row.
@EpicParsnips
3 жыл бұрын
Cheers for the feedback, I think I’ll give my players a fun opportunity to take it back and some revenge on top!
@joem1480
3 жыл бұрын
@@EpicParsnips go for it my only advice would be to make sure your next few Adventures after that are obviously the choice of the players.
@theDMLair
3 жыл бұрын
Yes it's forcing their hands multiple times in a row that was the issue. Once as an isolated thing is not a big deal. I was doing it too much.
@1217BC
3 жыл бұрын
Oh no! Consequences!
@kendrickrochelanzot2053
3 жыл бұрын
Low key i feel like the skits are their own DM lair cinematic universe
@cp1cupcake
3 жыл бұрын
I've been running Rise of the Runelords which is pretty railroady. PCs were very surprised when I added a thing to the campaign after they chased down a monstrous humanoid creature out of a house which wasn't theirs, and failed to convince people around that it wasn't something to worry about. O, and they took stuff which identifiably wasn't theirs out of the house. The new player in the group was pretty ecstatic when he realized that there would be consequences for their actions.
@shock_n_Aweful
3 жыл бұрын
Good on you for being able to hear your players and make a change. It's hard to take criticism.
@leifkruse3726
3 жыл бұрын
Is it possible to find your player survey anywhere ? I´m really interested in that :o
@erc1971erc1971
3 жыл бұрын
IIRC he did an in depth video on it not too long ago.
@leifkruse3726
3 жыл бұрын
@@erc1971erc1971 I'll see if I can find that.
@baka030hydroid
3 жыл бұрын
I would like to add an addendum to this if I may: railroading the players to ONLY be able to take part in the adventure is wrong. However, part of playing an adventure is that the players also need to be willing to, at some point, go on the adventure. While you shouldn't try to force the players down a path, they still need to understand that THEY agreed to play the adventure. I'll give a real life example so that I'm not baseless. My group decided we wanted to play Descent into Avernus for our Saturday games. It was pitched to us by a new DM who wanted to give 5e a go and with the premise of going on a quest through hell to save a city, using devil war machines and traveling the wastes Mad Max style. Because that sounds amazing, we all agreed. Well the campaign started, and we had an...interesting party. A Kenku Monk that loves oatmeal and is half monk-like but half lazy, a very confused sorcerer who is a master of disguise and can't decide what gender they want to be in the morning, a silent hexblade who's secretly a girly girl under the mask of a hardened killer, and a second hexblade who's methods are questionable, but he's quite effective at getting things done. So we take part in the bathhouse quest at the beginning, and after finishing that, an NPC states that good help like ours could be used at Candle Keep if we were looking for the work (none of us had literally anything going on, so we were) but that's where I noticed it starting. One of players was already complaining about feeling like they were railroaded to going to Candle Keep, even though our characters had nothing else planned. All that was done is that a suggestion was made for us to head to Candle Keep. We weren't even limited on our ways to get there, and we still had the freedom to explore the area. The point I'm trying to make is, that it's easy for us as players to fall into an even bigger trap than railroading itself. When our options are more limited than we would like we'll call it railroading and blame it on the DM. Character gets put into a compromising position? It's the DM's fault, he just doesn't want us to have a choice. The group leaving a goblin invasion unchecked suddenly turns into a ton of goblins fighting the party in areas that they weren't present before makes sense. That's not punishing the players for not going down your supposed railroad, that's having their characters exist in a living world where their actions have consequences. If they agreed to go on an adventure where they stop a goblin invasion by whatever means, then they shouldn't be surprised when that's what the DM has planned and is expecting, nor should they be surprised at any consequences for leaving said adventure unchecked.
@Tsevries
3 жыл бұрын
No player I've ever played with would feel they're being railroaded by simply being aware of an optional adventure hook. They're generally glad to have something to do; they're adventurers, not mitten knitters. Except for Edvard Von Mittens-Knitter of course.
@PrehistoricLizard
3 жыл бұрын
I thought the pasties had made him powerful enough to challange the gods, but this shows he's still mortal.
@heavenburnt9055
3 жыл бұрын
I've been quilty of this. I dont have the time to prep a billion different options, but I usually ask them at the end of a session where they would like to go next. Sometimes, I will drop a future encounter at their feet before the session ends, but I've been trying to give them options to subvert the encounter for more spy work stuff or something else. Yeah its rail roading still a bit, but my players are murder hobos and they usually take the encounter.
@theodorewiltrout4749
3 жыл бұрын
I try to have at least three adventures planned and ready to go and I let my party members chose which they want to go on. I can use the two adventures later. We have a few players that want to cause chaos were ever they go. Our half orc barbarian once sold their party leader to a group of ten orc guards and the paladin in the group rallied everyone to go and rescue him. It was an off the wall thing to do but I went with it and we had a fun game. That is not the first time they caught me by surprise. They have done weird things so often I just learned to roll with it.
@c_bass1971
3 жыл бұрын
I would say this is a problem for very experienced DMs specifically. Most of us so little over what happens each game session that we wish we could railroad a little bit. Highly experienced GMs have learned so many tricks to motivate and direct the party that they are capable of going too far with it. I recently re-watched Matt Colville’s Chain stream and he repeatedly railroads the story. And Luke and Matt are the best GMs I know. I hope to someday have so much skill that I need to control what happens LESS. 😂🤣
@agsilverradio2225
3 жыл бұрын
Personally, I would be satisfied with the way you rollplayed the Telicanski, because it was a reaction to the player's actions. ... It's the player's fault, for stealing more than they had to. ... The parts about you corralling and funneling them I would have had a problem with though.
@theDMLair
3 жыл бұрын
Yeah I don't think how I role-played talk on ski was bad. It was the funneling in corralling them. That's the part that was problematic. And that I did it multiple times.
@HalBreden
3 жыл бұрын
With the first couple of examples it felt a lot more like "consequences" than "railroading". They were warned not to take anything else, they took other things, it came back to bite them in the ass. But then at the point of "choose your flavor of dragon" it definitely went downhill...
@nes819
3 жыл бұрын
Wach out for the pittrapp that is basicaly sandboxing the campaign. My players gett al the fredome they want, and have acumulated quite a few storrylines that keep progressing in the background. They have al the freedom to pick their path, but when i notice them goofing off to much i turn the heat up. Now there are two threts that are in need of dealing with NOW. Pick your poison style.
@DarkTheFallen
3 жыл бұрын
Wait, wait, did you literally just say 'Here are two modules that made my players wanna quit, give me money so you can have them'?
@SpookyGhostIsHere
3 жыл бұрын
In Baulder’s gate: Descent into Avernus, Baulder’s Gate gets completely locked down to keep a cult from escaping, and then in Avernus the landscape shifts, meaning that getting places in unpredictable but is more reliable when following a guide or path. These are justified in the lore, and players don’t tend to feel railroaded in those circumstances, so I personally don’t count those as railroading. To me, railroading is when players are given an open ended quest, and then told by the DM that they have to do things in a specific order or that they have to do something in a specific way because that’s what they have prepared for. It shows a lack of respect for players, and players usually enjoy doing things their way. Also, it makes players thing you’re just wasting their time by stringing them along through a roller coaster.
@scottwagner2566
3 жыл бұрын
I told my players that the first couple of sessions were probably going to be a bit of a railroad. It’s the first time I had ever run a homebrew campaign instead of a module, and a couple of them were playing homebrew classes. I wanted to make sure I could try to measure how difficult I should make the encounters. The third session has them arriving at a major city where things tend to open up. They were fine with it. I think communication is key.
@koronus2148
3 жыл бұрын
Luke, I agree with your conclusion and advice....I disagree that your first couple examples were stealing agency. (The witch ultimatum and the noble's sword collection theft). It is just as important for decisions to have co sequences as for players to enjoy making the decisions. Did you tell your players "you steal the swords and that is it?" That would be stealing player agency. They decided to take more stuff. And a plausible consequence occurred. Did they not like the results? Ya. Theiving and getting caught can suck.
@davecironelibrarykid
3 жыл бұрын
This is the craziest D&D table ever!!
@O4C209
3 жыл бұрын
Lol. "I railroaded my players, and you can too by picking up this level 8 pdf." Serious, though, I don't think any of this is railroading. I think you were properly playing bad guys that logically would manipulate the PCs. The issue is, this kind of game play is exhausting and shouldn't be done time and time again.
@baobhan9094
3 жыл бұрын
One of the other things for some people to think about is, because we couldn't kill the hag, that was all still looming over our heads. We had no idea that all our staff weren't dead while we were dealing with Telekonski. Being pulled in several directions at once. And it felt like a lot of these were stacking up... Then the dragon got away... and we 'had' a plan to catch it! but it could teleport as a legendary action!!! haha! Basically, by the end of it, We felt defeated and kindof like we couldn't win the game. Which was a bad feeling. 3 major enemies we'd had phyrric victories against, no resources, nowhere to call home. That being said, Luke is amazing, and by talking it out with us after it all came up. We're back on track and supremely interested in seeing what happens next.
@baobhan9094
3 жыл бұрын
So yeah, pro-tip for players, it's not always "DM, talk to your players." There's definitely the other side of "talk to your DM!"
@loganshockey4041
3 жыл бұрын
I agree that you should give them more agency and that's important but like you also need to give them adventure hooks. Most DMs can't run big open world games. My group typically has trouble actively finding ways to entertain themselves if they need adventure hooks. I leave most things opened but at the end of the day just talk to your players like Luke says.
@Briansgate
3 жыл бұрын
I see nothing wrong with a railroad. Especially with the DM rant at 0:48 . Carry on, DM!
@deathbare5306
3 жыл бұрын
Also a rotten no good bad guy is good - just make sure the players get a chance to bonk him it's that whole catharsis thing.
@PeakMax
3 жыл бұрын
The myth of arriving. There isn't a magical finish line.
@dovahchicken935
3 жыл бұрын
I consider the forceful part in the way described in the video, and I don't mind those high stakes moments and it actually helps me make my characters develop, but I'm probably a weird case.
@quonomonna8126
3 жыл бұрын
i'm considering "fast-forwarding" through some of the overland travel in the next session (bypassing random encounter rolls) because there has been so much combat lately and they haven't been to town in a long time and need a break to get more role play and resupply
@Stottles85
3 жыл бұрын
Absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. If somethings becoming a bore, than skip it, maybe they took safer roads, maybe the encounters they had, weren't worth pulling out a battle map and minis/tokens for. I find travel to be a good time to bring in down time activities, crafting, training, research whatever makes sense and is available at the time. There doesn't need to be endless random encounters
@davidrose7938
3 жыл бұрын
I think you are saying: give your players an easy out so that the consequences of action (or inaction) can be side-stepped for the purpose of having a choice. (I’m being facetious.) They did need a choice: -go after their stuff or help the NPC that just arrived after a long journey seeking their help -stop the NPC from killing their friends/family or go after the extra rare thing needed to stop the spread of the magic disease an evil NPC just unleashed and slowly spreading across the land -fight one of two dragons (where they get a reward for doing so) or go home to safety and they later hear about how the dragon razzed a village -fight the troll horde or do a skill challenge to get out of the area unnoticed Evil people usually want to control others and the world around them. You’re not at fault for giving the players a reason to go do the thing. The players needed two more things: 1) a moral, ethical, or emotional conflict via an alternative option. Sometimes there are no good options and you just have to make the best of bad situations. Art imitates life. 2) the opportunity to feel like they were winning and on top of the world. In your story it felt like “out of the pan and into the fire” though I acknowledge the story is a paraphrase of events with a lesson learned in mind. Also, I have a migraine so not trying to sound unhappy but definitely feeling that way. 😊
@zendikarisparkmage2938
3 жыл бұрын
Just another comment for the algorithm to let KZitem know that Luke Hart isn't actually terrible.
@johnhansen4794
3 жыл бұрын
If I role play Smiley Fangs (the vampire elf wizard who wants to be a lich) as anything other than a conceited fop, TPK. If I role play Saarlok the Impaler as a sane strategest, TPK. There are limits and conceits built into villains, their blind spots make them defeatable. Like Edward Norton says to Anthony Hopkins in Red Dragon: "You had certain disadvantages."
@spazzyphantasm
3 жыл бұрын
Pretty frequently games take away your powers and status. They could had said "ehhh, we don't need that property or staff, let's sell his swords and continue the main conflict.
@joe2125
3 жыл бұрын
personally i dont believe in “no other options” in D&D. Sometimes in life, especially an adventuring life, you will be put in situations where it seems like you have no choice. These situations are my favorite as a player because it allow me to be more creative. If your players complained about railroading then tell them to be more creative or to bring a bard next time. Ive gotten out of no hope/dragon fights before by performing shakespeare as a bard. no excuses.
@jayteepodcast
3 жыл бұрын
When did D&D become about simulation?
@StarWindEnergin
3 жыл бұрын
You know what though, sometimes you've gotta chase your players up a Tree to make the game exciting. If the world is always just waiting for them to do things, it doesn't feel alive, it ruins verisimilitude. That's been one of my biggest gripes when playing certain RPG's, the world just waits on you, and I really think D&D should have a number of things happening independently of the party so that they feel like they're in a struggle, not just walking down a boring old path where everything is a foregone conclusion. Edit: To expand on the thought, a world that waits for the players is almost its own kind of railroading. I get that you left them no choice over and over again and it wore them down, but its really that you did it too much rather than never ever doing it again.
@johnsikking4891
3 жыл бұрын
I like your thought, more like more than one story arc running at once that the PCs could run into. I guess the question you have to ask is why does the githanki (sp) have two portals tonelagens. I get the red dragon for a mount, but the black dragon perhaps could have a different arc. Maybe the black dragon would be happy to team up against a wounded/weakened gith? Maybe the dragon didn’t have a sizable hoard because the gith was draining it in the form of extortion, etc. imagine running a series of quest with a shape shifted black dragon in your party.
@sleepinggiant4062
3 жыл бұрын
Giving them obvious ideal options is not railroading. They can still take the suboptimal choice, or come up with a new idea. Railroading is making them only do the one thing you want them to do and denying their other ideas. Like casting teleport instead of taking your portals and you make it fail automatically, or not allowing them to to go shopping in town before saving the orphans because they are overwhelmed with guilt. That is railroading.
@jasonsturm893
2 жыл бұрын
This dosnt sound like railroading or taking away agency, more like the consequences of previous decisions made by the players. As a player myself this sounds like a great campaign
@Grayald
Жыл бұрын
Yep. It's sad seeing so many spineless DMs flagellate themselves to death over nothing because they think it makes them virtuous.
@olhristov
3 жыл бұрын
Do you have a template for the survey? I tried running a few on one of my groups but they had mixed success. And I am long overdue for another one. Could use a little primer.
@Matt-md5yt
3 жыл бұрын
Sweet video today my friend.
@thorinpalladino2826
3 жыл бұрын
The only thing said here that I would consider to be railroady is taking their stuff without any warning or chance of stopping it.
@dragonxswords114
3 жыл бұрын
DM Lair here is some advice to fix this. When you provide that "choice" of two options, always have a good option for the players and a bad option. The portals having 2 dragons isnt a choice. Have 1 portal leading home to saftey and rest...and 1 portal leading to dragon. At the dragon, both the quest choice and the dragon should have been balanced for party. After that, give them a reward for overcoming the challenge. Maybe even something to let them get home a little easier. They shouldnt have to chase down a reward. And I really really respect the fact that you realized that what an NPC would do isnt good game design. This is extremely true. I would take it a step farther tho and say the trend of an NPC boss running away constantly after a fight isnt satisfying for players at all. Not even a little. I recommend a last ditch effort when they get desperate....but it should RARELY be running away. To prove the point: taking away the players stuff is a surefire way to make them hate an NPC. Imagine how satisfying that githyanki boss fight would have been if he actually died and they got some cool magic item off the body. No one is gonna EVER complain about sweet revenge and cool stuff in one package
@wyliecapp
3 жыл бұрын
The noble taking revenge without attacking the group is perfectly fine, but it did seem like a lot of steering by the end. If my players arnt clever and get caught or found out for a stealth/heist mission, the consequences don't always end with a fight. Nobles and smart wizards don't fight, they drain them politically or magically
@davekachel
3 жыл бұрын
Once I gave my players a script. No joke. Hear me out. I usually have an extreme sandbox approach. I let my players break entire plotlines without them noticing it. However I did a thing and I do not regret it at all. Its a cyberpunk setting. There was this very cool mercenary organisation my players heard about. The wet dream of every action fan. Guns, explosions, freedom. Fighting dictatorships and evil corporations like nobodies business. They heard a lot of stories about them. People talked about these guys. Every now and again my players received a brief snipped of something the cool mercs done. Usually a NPC that said "you remind me of those guys from back in the day" However this organisation was completely eradicated at some point before the campaign started. Some evil rich guys where threatened by the mercs, so the evil united their strength to absolutely destroy the mercs. They even dropped two nuclear bombs on their base. My players knew this. They knew missions of them. They knew the important names and roles. They knew how it ended. But than they met a survivor. The former leader survived. He was a broken man. Lost an arm and a leg. Couldn't see and hear probably anymore. Had severe PTSD. It was a devastating sight. But the old boss wanted to talk with the party. Tell his version of the story. And BOOM. I handed out a pool of fresh character sheets. 10 chars that represent the old merc team. (for 5 players so nobody is left out) The old boss telling the story by letting my players play the characters in said story. My players knew how this will end. They knew a lot of events that happened during this mini campaign. The story had to be RaiLRoaDEd to end in the massacre of the base. And still was it a fun and exciting story. (1,5 sessions á 4-5h) You, the person reading this, are free to do something similar. Its a lot of work. But it was totally worth it to me. You play generic fantasy? No problem. They are basically just a hero group that failed at one point. Make it geralt of riva and his friends, loosing the castle in a fight. Than everybody dies except one person. No problem whatsoever.
@scottgrant1635
3 жыл бұрын
You're not terrible. Now, I have a situation: In one of my groups, a player is leaving in a couple months, and his PCs backstory is tied into one of the major plotlines in my setting. I want to spend the next few sessions so that this player can resolve their backstory. While this might fall into the definition of railroading, I'm doing it with the full (advanced) knowledge of the players. This doesn't mean they will be forced into specific choices, but through NPCs, I'll "encourage" them to go where they need to go. Thoughts? Suggestions?
@torva360
3 жыл бұрын
"This adventure was a terrible idea and I shouldn't have done it. Anyway, you can but it now!"
@Tristan_Shuler
3 жыл бұрын
I don’t think the adventure is bad. The way he presented it is rail roading. You could easily plop this in as an optional side mission into a campaign. Eventually, actions do have consequences. So if players DO take the mission and steal the weapons, then of course the person would want them back.
@torva360
3 жыл бұрын
@@Tristan_Shuler yeah I have no doubt he suped it up, but it was a funny way to introduce it haha
@dovahchicken935
3 жыл бұрын
When I'm a player, I don't consider an enemy gaining leverage on players to be railroading, I think it makes enemies more in depth and gives a player motives to attack, but I do not like the idea of taking an ability or item the player likes. Those moments feel intense as they should and I think it does make players feel weak, but just give the players an easy way to retrieve their things back and get an amazing, worth while finish on the culprit.
@MonkeyJedi99
3 жыл бұрын
The barbarian MAY have enough dice, but we can still see the corners of the character sheet under there...
@bmartinsds
2 жыл бұрын
My players once went to see this woman in the woods and got pretty sure that she was a hag. Then they suddenly decided to turn back and kill the old woman, only to get their asses kicked by her because she was not just any hag (they were lvl 3). Later at level 5 they came back to her hut and found she was not there, so they burned the place to the ground and went back to the town of Phandalin. After a while, the hag started sending her minions to get revenge not on them, but on a family of halflings that had housed and fed them in the past. They left little of these folks behind and kidnapped their young children. What happened is that the players didn't enjoy this at all. They wanted to go after this map they had found to what appears to be some lost rich mine in the Sword Mountain and didn't want to know about the hag. So... I don't know if this is bad game design. What I know is that I would not feel comfortable just acting like the hag was not going to do anything after her house was burned to the ground.
@Gevaudan1471
3 жыл бұрын
Hitting event triggers isn't the same as railroading.
@theDMLair
3 жыл бұрын
Even when event triggers give them no choice and take away their agency in a way and force them down a certain Road? And I do it multiple times in a row? That's just not how I run my games.
@Gevaudan1471
3 жыл бұрын
@@theDMLair Oh sorry Luke I was responding to some of the comments in here, not your video specifically.
@JohnMiller-wf6cm
3 жыл бұрын
Railroading is also part of the game. If you look at each adventure, it is surely railroading them into a direction. Sure most modules have many options to get to the end game, but is it really an option of free will or sandbox gaming? I try to let them do as much sandbox gaming as I can, but at some point do you forget about the adventure at hand and just sandbox and make up things as you go, or do you try to continue the adventure that you worked on for their fun? See the dilemma? That's why I say railroading is part of the game. I guess it comes down to a balance of sandbox and railroading.
Пікірлер: 350