Historically accurate! Generals for millennia have tried copying the double-envelopment at Cannae, with the vast majority of them failing and losing the battle in the process. Pretty hard to reproduce bipolar Roman leadership in the field during that campaign, in real life and apparently in simulation as well!
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I totally understand why it fails now lol it's so hard to pull off!
@johnkenneth9293
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides it is harder if both sides have the same number of soldiers, or if the other side has very disciplined soldiers, the enemy commander could gather an elite force to make a way through the encirclement, or just push in one direction, since your encirclement became thin from the formation/tactic that you're using. This tactic would work 1.if the number of soldiers of both sides reaches 10 thousand or more, because it would be hard for the enemy's commander to see the whole battlefield, and in turn, the enemy commander wouldn't notice that they're getting surrounded, and getting mauled behind. 2. if the soldiers of the other side are not experienced soldiers, flanking enemy troops could easily demoralize as they've been surrounded and feel outnumbered. 3. If the soldiers that you're using to hold or surround the enemies are skilled enough not to get pushed back by sheer numbers In conclusion, this deadly, but risky tactic need a very skilled commander and right situation to execute. If I was a commander/general at the time, I would only use this tactic if I want to completely annihilate the enemies.
@kushagrakumarmishra2509
Жыл бұрын
Cyrus did succeed tho
@Talashaoriginal
Жыл бұрын
@@johnkenneth9293 One of the advantages of Hannibal was that the roman commanders exposed themself by leading the cavalry. As far as i remember both were killed during the initial charges of Hannibals Cavalry.
@594-d9b
8 ай бұрын
@@kushagrakumarmishra2509 Many did, famously Rehnskiöld pulled it off at Fraustadt as well. None the less, anecdotes do not replace empirical evidence.
@emperorofthegreatunknown4394
Жыл бұрын
The reason Cannae happened the way it did was that in the previous battles against Hannibal the roman Infantry punched a hole through the center of the line and was basically their only success. So the Romans doubled down on that strategy and deliberately deployed in a deep formation on an otherwise wide-open battlefield. Also, tactics play out differently when battles have 100,000 men compared to 2,000.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah that's a good point, I couldn't get the AI to bunch up like that. And having more than 1k units on the field would be AMAZING! There was a mod in the past that went up to 2k, which is what I think the game's max limit is
@bergonius
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides Would be nice to see you do a battle with that mod. I definitely couldn't do it with my puny PC
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
@@bergonius I've been trying to find a version that isn't 6+ patches out of date, but no luck :(
@onasknox9284
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides still a fun battle to watch. Hanni did have other things going for him as well, sparing the talk about food, rome's slow response and other details, he had battlefield advantages you dont, like elephants and maybe i missed the part where you had your heavy seasoned vets on the ends, and the weak troops in the middle, but his flanks held because they were his best men, his middle held because he was there. And he didn't have to ride around and give orders, he had a command structure that did that with his orders in mind. Still, a fun idea and fun execution.
@jackeroo_sundown
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides You know, having a buddy help you plan out/perform battles would be pretty cool.
@checkitout785
Жыл бұрын
Just got into Bannerlord recently after it came out on Consoles. As the game does a mediocre job of explaining anything, i gravitated towards KZitem for help and inspiration and i have to say, i became a huge fan of your content Strat. Keep doing what you're doing man - greetings from Germany!
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I'm glad my videos have been helpful :D Guten tag!
@snaile2876
Жыл бұрын
Yes, it’s very much a “figure it out yourself” kind of game. It’s a pretty steep learning curve, but the satisfaction of grinding your enemies in to dust after getting over that hump is totally worth it. You go from a ragtag little band of farmers running away from equal sized groups of bandits, and end the game at the head of 1000’s of troops, washing over the land like a glacier
@stanleybacklund5614
Жыл бұрын
Be aware alot of these tactics dont work that well without realistic battle mod
@idkname
Жыл бұрын
it is easy to suggest something. but i suggest something. make left and right cav strong. avoid using f1+f3 with cav. just move upon enemy. moving back is to ruin enemy cohesion. i used few formations from KZitem, two of them had worked. i dont know Hannibal used luring& confusing or not (or archers). but you can do it with cav. cav is fast to face enemy, enemy must face to protect themselves. but you take back cav without charge. this gives chance to your archers to shoot unshielded enemy if you confuse enemy from behind. especially if enemy chase cav , that looks like manipulating your enemy. but that is bot. even your left or right cav is strong , keep one without fighting. just lure enemy around. you will may need that cav to help some part of your army. arrow formation gathers enemy into one point (i think so...)). use center like arrow with two infantry group. dont stop cav , move them upon enemy and get back them to hit enemy again according to you situation). have a good time
@idkname
Жыл бұрын
finally someone tested Hannibal formation. i had deleted bannerlord.
@Nihoolious
Жыл бұрын
Seeing these historical tactics implemented from an on the ground view is incredible. Would you ever consider trying to recreate the tactics used by steppe armies like the feigned retreat?
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for watching! Yeah for sure, I have a couple ideas on the list that might work in that regard :)
@BlackHawk4832
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides I think feigned retreat only works if you have an exhaustion mechanic. As far as I understood, the Mongols would fake retreat for 4 or 5 days on horseback and then overwhelm the exhausted enemy formations. I've only played the bannerlord predecessors so maybe there is such a thing?
@zurakat6934
Жыл бұрын
I think it goes to show how incredible it really was
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I must have lost over 50 battles trying to get this to work and it was SO hard to manage everything that was going on. I can't imagine doing it back then when messages took a long time to get relayed, so it's really impressive he could pull off such a complex maneuver in those times.
@zurakat6934
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides it really was, even if you had lieutenants helping the battle, being able to predict what would happen and then also when it would happen, relay that message and get it right is just incredible.
@fuldrew-schodyrzeszowstalo7625
Жыл бұрын
There was another battle which Hanibal won with this tactic and there center collapsed Romans chased them 4 kilometers away and missed time when flanks were destroyed. So you need to strengthen flanks and make center easy target. And try to make gaps between flanks and center so formations would be far away and enemy would need to stretch more. And you need ranged units in center to lure enemy in.
@mattiOTX
Жыл бұрын
You should have libyans posted behind fhe left and right flank. They would help catch the units that roll around the edge of the line while you pull back the center and the troops equalize.
@StandingWithUkraine
Жыл бұрын
Great graphics and explanation my man
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Thanks!!
@Al4___
Жыл бұрын
That tactic was only used successfully 6 times in history for a reason
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah I can see why! It was really tough
@Al4___
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides Hannibal at the Battle of Cannae -Khalid Ibn Al-Waleed at the Battle of al-Walaja against the persians sometime around 633 -Alp Arslan at the Battle of Manzikert in 1071 -the Battle of Mohács by Süleyman the Magnificent in 1526 by Field Marshal Carl Gustav Rehnskiöld at the Battle of Fraustadt in 1706.
@mattiOTX
Жыл бұрын
It's because any form of a fighting retreat is hard to perform. That's why it's so impressive to have done and won with.
@DNH17
6 ай бұрын
Lovely stuff. Also for the past reference but also for how you explain. I love the schemes at the beginning, it's not much used, it should be used more. I also love to know what you are clicking especially as I play no HUD so I wanna know what you are doing. You use F7 to tell to go somewhere so you click left mouse button after f7 to tell to go there here etc.. and also you say f1 f 5
@hassanraza-zc5rp
Жыл бұрын
I'd love to see a recreation of lake trasmine.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I don't think I have that one on my list, I'll add it now :D
@JasperKlijndijk
Жыл бұрын
this is a stunning look for your player
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Thanks! I picked out a custom outfit from Open Source Armory for him :)
@kazansky22
Жыл бұрын
The problem with most games is that you can't effectively perform a fighting withdraw.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah it they mostly turned their backs and go stabbed lol
@alanwolensky
Жыл бұрын
Another great vid!
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it!
@alanwolensky
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides Hannibal's strats were OP. I watch for these videos right here, lol.
@alanwolensky
Жыл бұрын
It's funny to see shit not work out without the perfect conditions.
@landsknecht_voran
Жыл бұрын
You probably shouldn't completely surround units, there's a chance they are more likely to run if they have somewhere to run to, and if completely surrounded they would have to fight to their death
@bello9740
Жыл бұрын
have you ever considered the Zulu Buffalo Horn tactic? it's like an aggressive version of this rather than defensive
@flaccidactyl804
Жыл бұрын
Hannibal actually did lead from the front of the center through this entire battle to ensure that he could keep his men organized and their morale up as they managed the fighting retreat as the tactic is very prone to routing. Whether intentional or not being driven back is a scary thing. But you will never be able to perform this strategy int he game because you can't perform a proper fighting retreat.
@b8grande779
Жыл бұрын
For ai inf to bunch up on middle you should charge your own inf in V Formation than give fall back order in the middle. flanks should have less inf to deal with than they advance and push the enemy from flanks with cav support to box them in instead of starting in line formation
@reporterid
Жыл бұрын
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but is it possible that, in the actual battle, the flanks of Hannibal's formation moved a little back as well whenever the Roman units tried to flank them (if they did), just at a slower speed than the center, in order to not get flanked? I mean, I don't think Hannibal told his flanks to never move from their initial spot even if they were about to be flanked/surrounded. Also, complex maneuvers are obviously much easier when multiple people are controlling them.
@kolbywilliams7234
Жыл бұрын
I don’t think it’s likely because the supposed conditions of the battlefield partially obscured Hannibal’s army. The Romans were unaware that they were going to be flanked, so they weren’t trying to outflank them. They relied on numerical superiority to crush the center and divide Hannibal’s line. Hannibal’s strategy at Cannae was very specific to the terrain of the battlefield and the type of army he was facing.
@reporterid
Жыл бұрын
@@kolbywilliams7234 Yes, I'm not saying it's the case but I'm saying the commanders on the flanks probably had some freedom in deciding what to do, as long as they kept the positon in the overall formation. Strat was alone and couldn't keep an eye on the flanks while moving the center and preparing the envelopment.
@mattiOTX
Жыл бұрын
One thing that makes this not work well is the ai keeps a thin line, they should be running a bit deeper and not as wide. Thats important to run this tactic, when hannible pulled the center back it helped reduce the numbers advantage of the romans and kept them from spilling to the outside. So you might need a human on fhe otherside to give that command.
@booradley6832
Жыл бұрын
I'm actually surprised bannerlord gets it wrong, they did not animate Camels uniquely and just made them lumpy horses. They have much more of a "swinging" long-strided gait instead of a quick trot because unlike horses who step with their opposite front and back foot to have a very "steady" and flat motion, camels swing both legs on the same side forward at once, so do giraffes. This could be because both have an oddly long leg to spine ratio that would mean stepping with opposites could easily get their legs tangled when panicked. 0/10 demanding a refund after thousands of hours. I know steam will understand, this is unacceptable. Also horses have to be trained to tolerate camels, they do not like them at all, even the smell will start to upset horses.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
That's an interesting point that I've never thought of! I remember from my AoE2 days that camels countered mounted units pretty hard so it makes sense now why they did that.
@Accolon12
Жыл бұрын
Can you do a video defending against Mongolians? I feel like that would be interesting. Maybe pick a battle where Mongolians won, either in a open field or through a siege, and see if you can do better.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I've got a couple battles on my list just like you describe :D
@JasperKlijndijk
Жыл бұрын
line battle archers volley fire only
@pekka588
Жыл бұрын
it could possibly work with archers on the flanks
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah or skirmisher troops with a couple stacks of javelins!
@alexisking3579
Жыл бұрын
I wish you could have better troop control on console
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I wish I had a console so I could work on that issue :(
@7jwj
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides buy a console controler and try it it may work
@Awtora
Жыл бұрын
ok, but why did i read the title as "i used Hasbulla's tactics" lmao
@burgues6181
Жыл бұрын
you couldn't replicate this tactic because the Romans were known for their battle cohesion, the chances of a Roman soldier leaving his formation to engage the enemy flank were low. That's why this worked for Hannibal, that's also why phalanx almost always gave the Romans a hard time. the troops in the bannerlord do not have this kind of cohesion. But it is sad that it is not possible to replicate this strategy in any medieval war game today, in total war the problem is that the Feigned retreat, to create the envelop, is not possible to do.
@WorldHistory515
Жыл бұрын
You have a mistake with how you position your troops, in cannae hannibal saved his most elite infantry (Libyans) behind both his wings so when the center pulls back they attack and then you just need the cavelry to finish them of
@danielgurney8173
Жыл бұрын
What troops are both sides using?
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Player side was mostly shield troops with a handful of shock troops - all tier 5. AI side was all shield troops with a mix of tier 4 and tier 5. Also both sides had about 50 cavalry, tier 6.
@danielgurney8173
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides I meant like what kind of troops were they since they didnt look vanilla also your videos are amazing.
@mdi4903
Жыл бұрын
But did you have the cav advantage as hanibal had?
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah I had the advantage in cavalry, but the problem is Bannerlord cavalry are trash when it comes to KDR and they don't cause morale damage when charging from the flanks, so they basically did nothing to help against the infantry
@aeternavictrix2763
Жыл бұрын
please can you simmulate feigned retreat tactic or mongolian tactic
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
It's on the list to try out :D
@gerardjagroo
Жыл бұрын
Your enemy was smarter than the Roman General as they took care to spread out their line to envelop yours while the Roman General bunched up his troop in the center.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Lol true, the AI finally did a smart thing!
@sultanhamzah8974
Жыл бұрын
can you give me your mod list for this test?
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I've got the full mod list and in the correct order in the description of this video: kzitem.info/news/bejne/uG9qk5OAjmaQn2U&ab_channel=StratGaming
@sultanhamzah8974
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides alright thx
@sebook4995
Жыл бұрын
In battle of Cannae Hannibal has placed his most elite troops on left and right flank. Despite being outnumbered the've defeated the romans facing them, before collapse of the center and then turned back to help them (the center) with cavalry and light infantry. Maybe if you had strengthened the flanks instead of making them just like the center, this tactic would have worked in Bannerlord. Great video, love your "military tactics in Bannerlord" content.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I can definitely try that out! I don't think I loaded up the on the flanks in any of my testing
@nowaynowaynottoday
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides could be worth having a unit of shock troops behind each wing on the front line to help mop up the flanks before encasing the army. Issue is their'll probably still poke through the middle I suppose
@user-vw4hv4dj4e
10 ай бұрын
Could also use some cavalry as disturbance on the flanks
@giftzwerg7345
7 ай бұрын
not sure if i agree, the most important thing is that the romans got all drawn into the center coz that was where the enemy was giving ground, best way to simulate this in bannerlord would be to start out with threelinds behind eachother so the enemy will focus the center, and then when they start to flank you to get your flanks out to defend them. this way the majority of the ai will still be in the center
@TheFartanSpartan
Жыл бұрын
These historical formation videos are awesome, keep 'em coming please.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Glad you like them!
@cloore3239
Жыл бұрын
this kind of works when you micromanage the center a lot. you need to give constant move orders in order to get them to walk backwards while still facing the enemy with their shield, try giving them orders every 2-3 ft of distance behind them. it works very nicely with troops that have large shields since they can also prevent missiles from hitting their extremities.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah for sure, it's a tough one to pull off because it requires a lot of micro! A bit above my paygrade I'm afraid lol
@shorewall
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides Maybe treat it like a refused flank, where you have a token force in the center to bait the enemy, and just continually retreat before contact. Meanwhile your flanks are extra strength. Avoid the main battle in the center, while defeating the flanks in detail. Then surround the main force, now with more even numbers. Perhaps have archers take the place of infantry in the center, since you have no intention of standing to fight. Heaviest infantry on the flanks, and cav combined attack. Then again, simulations don't work as well because AI doesn't care about dying or being tired or hungry, and has perfect communication and visibility. And the Romans were pretty damn stupid when it came to tactics in that particular battle, and a lot of battles against Hannibal. Figures when you are led by politicians. :D
@giftzwerg7345
Жыл бұрын
hinibal stayed personaly in the center to lead it so
@Harrier_DuBois
Жыл бұрын
Tactics that worked in a clash of 100 thousand + men, will not work the same in battles of a few hundred/thousands. Although there was a huge numbers difference, there was also a huge quality difference, Hannibal had veterans of many campaigns with looted armour and weapons, versus mostly raw recruits, probably with basic gear.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
That's true, it's harder to emulate since my lines were not enough to cover their lines and I was already single file lol
@inditiva6203
Жыл бұрын
Great video! Hannibal was a genius for pulling this off as you mentioned Unfortunately we can't used the sun to our advantage to fully simulate Hannibal's double envelopment. Hannibal at Cannae positioned his troops in such a way that the sun was at his back and shining directly into the eyes of the Roman soldiers, which significantly hampered their ability to see and fight effectively.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Thanks! Oh interesting, I didn't know that!
@7jwj
Жыл бұрын
I think taleworlds should work on the ai moral because they fight brutally even if you killed there commander or flanking them they will charge not like in other games like total war when you flak the troops in total war there moral break's and start fleeing or killing there commander they will flee too
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I agree! The only units that flee consistently now are the looters lol
@7jwj
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides true lol
@johnkenneth9293
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, to balance that, the troops of the enemy commander focuses on defending their commander.
@shaojiezhang8276
Жыл бұрын
I've found that I can get their morale to break faster when you kill a lot of people very quickly. Battania has significant weaknesses, but inflicting huge damage is a specialty of theirs with their archers and falxes, so I've pushed the enemy into retreat by wiping out huge numbers of them in a short period of time. Of course, there might have been other factors at play and I'm talking out of my ass, but it's been my experience that a flanking maneuver with falxmen + two formations of archers on both flanks, all deployed at the right time, will quickly push any enemy into retreat.
@kolbywilliams7234
Жыл бұрын
I think the only reason they won’t do that is that your own troops would be susceptible to that as well. It would result in a much higher skill floor, which is already pretty high as it is. A lot of people would be turned off by that feature because they wouldn’t understand why their troops just give up and run away.
@josebatxu32
Жыл бұрын
Hannibal is my favorite general in history, and the fact that Hannibal was able to pull of this strategy succesfully is the most amazing part of everything. From the start of his campaign he was able to flawlessly exploit the flanks of his enemies, all of which outnumbered him, it took a genius on equal measure to finally defeat him, Scipio's victory and all other Hannibal victories are what I believed shaped the way war was approached in coming years, all the way up to the medieval ages
@jeremiasvonsiebner5540
Жыл бұрын
One other commonly forgotten thing about Cannae- the Carthaginian soldiers were, at the time, veterans, well trained and well equipped, and seasoned from the battles at Trasimene and the Terbia. The Romans were mostly raw recruits, drafted and handed arms and armor, as the majority of the trained Romans were dead from the previous 2 major battles.
@linming5610
Жыл бұрын
Not only 2 in battles. Scipio also took 2 legions to spain and another 2 legions was marching to the gauls which was unfortunately ambushed half way through. So basically rome lost more than 12 legions in first two years of the war. 8 in cannae, 2 in trasimene, 2 in silva litana. This doesnt include heavily damaged legions that was defeated but survived. 12 legions out of more than 20 legions. That was as many as 60,000 roman soldiers dead and another 60,000 more allied armies. Again this doesnt include casualties from other defeated but surviving legions.
@jeremiasvonsiebner5540
Жыл бұрын
@@linming5610 I was talking about Hannibal alone, I'm pretty sure those were the work of his brothers.
@linming5610
Жыл бұрын
@@jeremiasvonsiebner5540 I just like tallying and mentioning the numbers to help visualize the odds rome was facing.
@astrosherlock374
Жыл бұрын
@@linming5610I don't think it was the Romans who were facing the odds here my guy....
@linming5610
Жыл бұрын
@@astrosherlock374 They do even with naval superiority, they nearly buckled under pressure. Losing nearly or more 60,000 men in two years from population of more than 200,000 citizens(adult males) in city and countryside of rome is not a simple matter. Of course this doesn't include slaves and colonial population from other regions Romans migrated. But even with that they are facing heavy odds that's why they embarked in mass conscription instead of usual volunteers and even conscripting slaves to fight. City of Rome provided most of the soldiers that's why it was said Rome lost around 20% of its adult male population after cannae. It was theorised they raised as many as more than 10% of their entire population to fight in 2nd punic. They roughly have a solid rule on about a million people from both Roman and allied states that can bear arms. This percentage of people under arms was never again seen until industrial age where confederate states raised as many as 20% of its white population to fight in civil war.
@Pentagathusosaurus
Жыл бұрын
I think another reason it doesn't work in Bannerlord is that your troops keep turning away from the enemy when ordered to move back and expose themselves.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah they turn their backs to the enemy - not the brightest idea lol
@bobbiewiggles8631
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides You can set it to face enemy and they'll back step I believe. Maybe not.
@090giver090
Жыл бұрын
It would have worked better if Bannerlord had a "pull back" order. If you look closer, you'd see that when you're pulling back your troops by "move" order some of the soldiers tend to turn their backs on the enemy and get shredded. Also this method requires micromanaging their new position. So yeah, I _really_ miss "advance/pull back ten paces" orders from Warband.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah it's not a good idea to turn your back on the enemy shield wall lol gotta love the AI
@naghs2726
Жыл бұрын
“I really dont know how this guy pulled this off” That was funny af 😂
@jamoecw
Жыл бұрын
so understanding what happened is pretty difficult with current games. first the method of fighting for undisciplined troops versus disciplined isn't modeled well in any game i have played. when you are disciplined you can keep awareness of where the rest of your line is and so with stepping forwards and back to deliver thrusts results in a rather fluid line the less disciplined you are. this means that less disciplined troops allow gaps to happen and for local flanking to happen. few armies used local leadership, and so the undisciplined tended to do what bannerlord does and wrap around the flanks when they can, but they don't fall back slowly as they defend attacks. Romans had local leadership, so they could do what Bannerlord does, holding firm and then wrapping around to exploit gaps. this means that a weak line won't stretch, which is key to this strategy. also you might need to customize your own troops to get the flanks correct, as the flanks were super heavy hoplites, with long spears allowing them to fight several ranks deep. this means that the line naturally bulged in the center, and he dove into battle in the center to firm it up when it was at the breaking point. most of this would happen naturally based on the battle set up, you just need to have some balls during the execution to dive into the middle the enemy and get surrounded so your own forces want to try and save you and can also see their move backwards. the strategy AI also doesn't try to punch holes, so they don't pack men to any one area on the line, so that might be another bit of modding to make it possible in game. for the center you might need faster lighter troops in order to get them moving back faster. you probably also need to issue the command earlier than your second attempt. you might try square formations on the sides for the gaps that happen due to falling back, though 2 of the sides won't get used (and thus wastes men when you are already outnumbered). or maybe overlapping formations (so 2 formations to form the two sides of a square for the side formations, with people set to stand in the same spots). in the end it would be cool to pull off, but probably too much work.
@briangriffin9793
Жыл бұрын
One other side of it: my understanding is that Hannibal's flanking troops were both hidden and ignored. So in Total War, with hiding mechanics and the IA being willing to ignore troops to favor a target, this works. But with my interactions in Bannerlord, troops are troops to the IA. It does not prioritize any particular formations or enemy type. Plus you can't hide troops...
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Lol yeah the AI can see everything in the map at all times and just attacks the closest enemy. Hax!
@nicholasricardo8443
Жыл бұрын
You're missing the fact that the two Consuls Paullus and Varro had completely different ideas of how to fight hannibal. Varro needed a victory so his populist buddies could get elected next year, and Paullus was listening to previous consul Fabius and wanted to deny Hannibal of a decisive battle
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
That's really interesting! I wish stuff like that made it's way into games. I'm not sure how you would do it, but there are so many non-combat factors that decided many people's fate. Pretty interesting stuff!
@shorewall
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides Yeah, that's what I love about games like this and Total War, is trying to visualize our human history.
@vyevd8
Жыл бұрын
your tactic videos are helping me win impossible battles i managed to win a 4:1 fight thanks to your videos man
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
That's what I like to hear!!
@algorix8420
Жыл бұрын
what specific tactic did you use for that fight? I'm curious
@vyevd8
Жыл бұрын
@@algorix8420 i used the tactics he used in the video where he uses realistic tactics and alexander the great's
@anlyuksel2194
Жыл бұрын
Great content! I too recently started to experiment with real life battle tactics, and today I tried a rather unusual one, the Ottoman wagon battle tactic. However it was extremely hard to pull off as the game doesn't have wagons to enable wagon fortresses in front of my center line, instead I dismounted my horse archers in front of my center line and the horses were enough obstacle for my archers to just devastate the enemy center while my other mounted units kept them off the flank of my center line. Again, it is extremely hard to implement, but I would love to see your take on a similar tactic.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
That's a really interesting idea, I'll have to try that out sometime!
@kolbywilliams7234
Жыл бұрын
Do your horses not run away after being hit by something? I’ve utilized horses in a similar way, usually the enemy horses, but they don’t really stay for very long because they run off as soon as they receive damage.
@lordofbannerlord5744
Жыл бұрын
please tell me, how do you draw such battle schemes and what program do you use? I will be very grateful
@mrookeward
Жыл бұрын
I do table top wargaming and have for decades. I've never seen Rome lose this battle unless the odds were in Carthage's favour. The problems are: 1. The Romans concentrated on the centre and seem to have left their third line in camp. 2. The Roman general didn't know what he was doing. 3. The Roman and allied cavalry were "ok" troops, but outnumbered, and unsupported; and poorly lead. (It's a myth to say they were inferior) 4. The battle was miles/kilometres wide. One flank had no idea what the other was doing. (Another example of poor leadership) 5. Even Hannibal's poorest troops were veterans by now while the Roman first line were mostly raw troops (this is more a factor when they were pinned and didn't know how to respond since their training and doctrine required space and room to manoeuvre) 6. Even novice gamers know how to avoid slow moving envelopment - which was truly impressive, given the battle was so wide! Hannibal didn't have to micro-manage the centre. In your simulation here, you can see the gaps and poor AI coordination of the individual troops let you down. Hannibal didn't have the same problem because that's how the Spanish and Celtic warriors in the centre knew how to fight. If you give a flank in BL, you lose troops pretty fast and this plan starts to fail. The basic tactic in BL does work, but you need a solid front, and a decent reserve on either flank to move around the enemy pinned to the shield wall. Good video!
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
This is a really nice addition, thank you for taking the time to type all of this out! I've heard it explained before why Rome lost this battle, but your simple explanation made it very clear :)
@alexanderroberts847
Жыл бұрын
Keep doing what your doing man! Appreciate your content 🔥
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I appreciate that!
@PaddyyYY
Жыл бұрын
I bet Hannibal had experienced Captains assigned to his formations! ;) Looks like you really need rts command mod for this as well as the pause/slow mo feature to command the troops more effectively.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Lol that's definitely true!
@WarPigstheHun
Жыл бұрын
@10:45 I think if you pivoted left and right flank inward, it might give ur men more advantage. Also I think the elite carthaginian troops attacked from the flanks. It might also be possible to bait the roman center far, far away from the flanks, forcing them to give chase, and destroy the lighter roman flanks, which is the same thing that happened in Cannae. Also I feel like your flanks were a bit too thin. But that map did suck for this tactic anyways.
@SmileyFaceOfRom
Жыл бұрын
Geez, the level of quality in each of these videos is just crazy. Well done.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I appreciate that :)
@wr842
Жыл бұрын
5:42 Gaius Varro simply went F1-F3 that’s how Hannibal pulled it off but dumb jokes aside it didn’t work here because lines 2&3 weren’t good enough bait to pull them in. You may want to set it up exactly how you did in the control to get the spacing correct then after make 2&3 move forward a lot more and a bit spaced out in a skein. Pull the enemy troops in so that they stack on on another like a hole in a siege wall as they chase the closes troops. After falling back a few times have 2&3 get back into a line position as they fall back some more before the enemy gets there. Then be quicker sandwiching them. Even if the Calvary aren’t finished you may want them to do charging sweeps like a pendulum to complete the tactic. Eating away at both sides behind the enemy until the tactic can work as normal like in your control Edit: side note for bannerlord mechanics you may want to locate the enemy leader(s) & kill them immediately with Calvary for moral drops & coherence
@nukesomething5518
Жыл бұрын
the only problem is the thinner you make the center the less the AI wants to attack it
@wr842
Жыл бұрын
@@nukesomething5518 what I was saying was have them more pronounced & a LOT closer to the enemy troops then once the enemy is close to them pull back, stop. Pull back, stop. Pull back, shield wall & then proceed with the original plan. The enemy will definitely bite on troops within a 100 yards or so in front of them to chase
@kohakuteam8881
Жыл бұрын
Can you recreate the hit-run tactics of the Mongol cavalry in their conquest of Europe? I really like their strategy :3
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I'm working on something like that this week :D
@kohakuteam8881
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides Great ! Subscribed and ready to watch the latest video
@CoeGr
Жыл бұрын
Hannibal should of just used F1-F3.
@patrickbraz9449
Жыл бұрын
I was waiting for this since you mentioned It. I do love total war hystoric battles, and this battle is a nightmare at rome 2. The only way to beat it is luring, baiting and skirmishing the AI from behind for about 1hour or so. No way to make It without exploiting the AI. No wonder why Hannibal is regarded as the greatest general rome Empire has ever fought.
@jubjub7673
Жыл бұрын
Tbh they should rework morale in the game. It should be if 50% of the army dies, the low tier troops start fleeing and then the higher tier troops stick around for much longer. Also, I think armour in general is too bad in the game, making the battles too quick to employ good tactics.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah morale is a bit of a joke in Bannerlord. I actually had RBM on which makes armor much more effective. It's the only reason this battle didn't end in 30s haha Gotta love that meat grinder in vanilla
@dimspacha
5 ай бұрын
WHY DISMOUNT THE CAVALRY??????? for historical accuracy?? wtf i dont get it. Crash the cav on the 3 fronts and win the battle. BUT I HAVE TO ADMIT, I also don't understand why each front has not been overwhelmed by the 3 to 1 ratio.... WEIRD.
@jonlannister345
2 ай бұрын
Another reason it didn't work is the way videogames always do melee front lines. In the real battle there was barely any casualties among the infantry until the Carthaginian cavalry returned to the field. If there's any mod out there which makes battlefield attrition very low you'd probably be able to pull it off, but as it is normally your front line will be killed off too fast to pull off grand tactical moves. The game I've seen simulate it best is Shogun 2 Total War with Darth Mod Slow Mode mod. There's barely any casualties without pulling off wide tactical moves so you can play around with leaving a frontline to fend for itself for extended periods of time while other units try to outmaneuver each other around the main battle to get into the position to actually inflict major damage with fresh troops. Another thing is morale simulation. In the real battle the Romans managed to push the Carthaginian front line off the field, but since thousands of men were getting slaughtered behind them they just fled rather than trying to reform. Having tens of thousands of troops who have no idea what is going on outside of their immediate vicinity is a huge factor too, as the AI can always see the whole battlefield and reposition based on information the Romans never had access to.
@booradley6832
Жыл бұрын
Idk if you've seen the video by Spartan Gaming about How to Chamber block but he does an excellent guide and it seems like a mechanic you'd get a lot of enjoyment out of mastering.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I actually made a full combat guide over a year ago and have a pretty big section on it in this video: kzitem.info/news/bejne/zmyO12huiJ1noo4&ab_channel=StratGaming
@Inquisitor_Vex
Жыл бұрын
I’ve used this in Total War too, it’s surprisingly effective.
@misterkid
2 ай бұрын
instead of slowly backing them up, why not line formation sprint them back? You'll get the envelope before your flanks are overrun.
@Eantrin
Жыл бұрын
No Romans killing themselves out of terror. 2/10. Too much camel. Also you were right about Hannibal's position. Some accounts tell that Hannibal stood with his troops at the center so they'd fall back slowly and not outright break.
@histhoryk2648
Жыл бұрын
I would wish for recreation Siege of Alesia also known as Siege within the siege, but I guess it's impossible
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
That would be cool! I'm still waiting for open field battle fortifications mods
@Ch-thalassa
Жыл бұрын
im obsessed with your videos. I wish I had the skill in banner lord that you have to execute such fun!
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for watching! I'm not sure it's worth the 4k+ hours I've spent playing Bannerlord haha
@MrSquigglies
Жыл бұрын
Big problem is you just don't have enough finesse capable of issuing such complex orders and the AI can't really do a good interpretation of what you want to happen either. So like when you order your infantry to fall back they'll start turning their backs on the enemy and doing other stupid things. I know a modding team has implemented an AI to have conversations with NPCs in a more organic way. I really hope I live to see the day where an AI is able to take and interpret verbal commands from a headset and implement those in a game like bannerlord or total war
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah the AI is quite difficult to work with at time. And while I would like to blame the AI for everything, it's also just really hard to pull this one off and I'm just not good enough I think. I spent a whole week practicing this one but couldn't really get it to work out. I would love to have an AI that mimics the action you get on a multiplayer game!
@MrSquigglies
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides kzitem.infow67bLjsn8RI?feature=share Good breakdown of Cannae. Also the channel is a wealth of other strategy/tactics testing ideas.
@TheManofthecross
Жыл бұрын
it did not help carthage in the long run especally with rome's never give up mind set and simply ground down hanablals army to force them to come to zara and got crushed there. they cant win in a attrition fight.
@enjoythestruggle
Жыл бұрын
At Cannae the Romans got so close together they had no space to swing their weapons anymore. That's not something the game lets you simulate.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Maybe if they all had 2H swing weapons? I see them bounce off each other sometimes with those, but not the short 1H or spears as much
@mrookeward
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides This had to be a bit of rhetoric, given they used short swords. The Romans used and relied on a lot of manoeuvre to win their battles but struggled when they were pinned. There are numerous examples of that against other Italian states and the Diadochi. BL doesn't have mechanisms for replicating the Roman tactics. Where they could perform line exchange, avoid being pinned and could get to the enemy's flanks, they were far superior. Where they were prevented from doing that, then they either lost or were saved by another part of the army which wasn't pinned.
@RemusKingOfRome
Жыл бұрын
At Cannae , the Green Roman legionaries grouped up in a large blob as they advanced. Bannerlord cannot do that, like many other things.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, I wish it was possible in a video game :(
@RemusKingOfRome
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides Some talented modder needs to create a BL "Ancients" mod, so soldiers fight in an archaic style.
@dariuszgoralski856
Жыл бұрын
Ale Hannibal nie zastosował podwójnego okrążenia skrzydeł. Było tylko na jednym skrzydle. Mało tego. W następnym roku, pod Dertosą w Hiszpanii, Hasdrubalowi ten schemat nie wyszedł. Mimo, że Rzymianie mieli równe siły a nie przewagę. Zresztą 16 legionów pod Kannami to prawdopodobnie wymyśl Polibiusza.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for watching!
@dariuszgoralski856
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides I love your channel. IMHO - you are a great player and your films are very interesting. My hero? Good luck!
@DmSL1906
Жыл бұрын
What mod lets you wear leopard pelt and shoulder armour at the same time?
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
It's the same shoulder piece I believe! I do have a mod called Open Source Armory on, so it adds something like 1k new equipment pieces
@DmSL1906
Жыл бұрын
@@Strat-Guides Thanks 🙏
@unwashedhands2087
Жыл бұрын
Y'all know a way to turn off the fog of war for the wanderers? Finding good companions is next to impossible with it on.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I have not had a chance to play on 1.1.0 much yet, but plan on doing more with it soon. If I find a good way, I'll let you know. I assume someone will make a mod for it
@unwashedhands2087
Жыл бұрын
I'm on console, unfortunately. Guess the only logical choice now is to go to TaleWorlds HQ and set myself on fire in protest.
@philjohnson1744
Жыл бұрын
Ahh, when Hannibal proved he wasn't all Barca, but also Bita.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Lol I don't even know what to say to that one :)
@danielboyer7545
Жыл бұрын
Its funny how even the AI is not as stupid as the roman general during Cannae
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Haha true!
@Benx24937
2 ай бұрын
I wish that you had battanian troops too, because hannibal had Celtic troops
@hamzaferoz6162
Жыл бұрын
Now Do General Bai Qi's Changping Tactics Or Cao Cao at Guandu
@FASynergy
Жыл бұрын
The Roman weakness was their strength; they were trained to fight as a unit. As the Carthaginian Center collapsed, Romans broke formations and charged through the gap. The flanking and envelopment occured after all communication and cohesion has broken down in the Roman Center, which swelled with troops who should have stayed attacking Hannibals flanks. The only way this could be replicated in game without micromanagement is if the AI Enemy was able to transfer units from the flanks to the buckling center. Because they can't, what you get is overwhelming force on the flanks, breaking the strategy.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Good point! Also the units being surrounded still fight as effectively as if they were the ones doing the flanking, which doesn't typically happen IRL
@ashen1921
Жыл бұрын
I'm curious if you'll play as Hannibaal with the Eagle Rising mod since you've finished with Timur?- I'll also recommend "My Little Warband" for some extra fun perhaps
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
I'm planning on a Eagle Rising campaign at some point! I tried My Little Warband for the next campaign, but it kept crashing so I had to remove it :( Sadly I spent 5+ hours building out an entire troop tree but had to throw it all out
@Madhattersinjeans
Жыл бұрын
Looks like a tricky maneouvre to pull off. Only thing I could suggest is having the centre slightly further forward to bait the AI to cluster around them allowing you to flank a bit more easily. Once their infantry got around your sides it was basically over. But even then, slowly pulling units back would be necessary and I don't know how effective the AI is at staged withdrawal as a concept let alone in programming.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
It was really hard! I spent a whole week running tests and practicing but no matter what I tried, it was just too much. If I made the enemy troops really low quality, it worked (but doesn't count because F1 + F3 worked in that case too lol)
@VoidOfDarkness9
Жыл бұрын
It will work when game invents system where once you get lots of people near you for longer duration of time You start losing Oxygen which start effecting your combat capabilities and visions etc.. with added benefit of getting K.O if you stay long enough. (Like in GOT john snow becoming breathless in battle against bolten where his whole army getting surrounded)
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah it would be hard to add all of those mechanics to the game
@Rtsvillain
Жыл бұрын
lol it works really well. try 3 groups. 1 on each flank and a center. 1/3rd 1/3rd 1/3rd. cavalry use move commands only never charge. just have them move on top of enemy cavalry whenever the enemy cav moves away. once the enemy cav groups are decimated, dont charge, move command your cav to rear of the infantry forces, then dismount and then charge. works better, and its what Hannibal did anyway
@Rtsvillain
Жыл бұрын
ive beaten 6-1 odds playing like this, albeit it was my vet army against a generic lord army. no need for reserves, flanks pivoting will do trhe trick
@yokinghaddock673
Жыл бұрын
I wish there was a command for moving forward or back 5 paces
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah that would be amazing!
@legate7158
Жыл бұрын
For these battle tactic videos, It would be magnificent if you could track the battle using a small window on the corner of the screen giving a full birds-eye view of the entire battle-field, instead of a first-person camera *only**
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah that would be cool! There is a way to record battles and play them back later but I wasn't able to figure it out. Sadly I would have to fight the battle twice to do that, but then it wouldn't be the same battle and RNG is pretty big with these large melee battles
@mattiOTX
Жыл бұрын
The units playing the libyans should have had javs as that was a common weapon of hannibles libyans troops and was used to great effect as he pulled back his center exposing the sides of the roman center which led them to getting peppered before being crushed.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah javelins would have been amazing in this situation!
@gerardjagroo
Жыл бұрын
Perhaps you can try the battle of Chaeronea with Phillip of Macedon vs the Greek city states. Its similar to the Battle of Canae but less complicated and easier to pull off The Two Armies were liner up facing each other with the Macedonian elite Companion Cavalry at the back of their line like this: """"""""""""""""'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ∆∆∆∆ _The little quote marks """"" is the Greek line, the exclamation marks !!!!! is the line of Macedonian phalanxes and the Triangles ∆ are the elite Companion Cavalry_ After both lines were engaged King Philip ordered his phalanxes on the right to pull back to lure the Athenians forward to expose a flank for the Companion Cavalry to strike like this: """"""""""""""""'''''''''''''''''''''''' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ∆∆∆∆ """""""""" !!!!!!!!!!! The Companion Cavalry charged into the exposed Athenian flank. Something like this: """"""""""""""""'''''''''''''''''''''''' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ∆∆ ∆∆"""""""""" !!!!!!!!!!! The also send a few squadrons of cavalry to outflank the main Greek line """"""""""""""""''''''''''''''''''''''''∆∆ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ∆∆"""""""""" !!!!!!!!!!!
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing this! I'm definitely going to screenshot your comment and do some research, I'll see what I can find on the battle and try it out when I have time! It sounds like it would make for a fun video at the very least :D
@stanleybacklund5614
Жыл бұрын
Its definitely hard to replicate this strategy with such a small scale. I think if this battle involved more like 3k or more would have been more effective
@gabrielinostroza4989
Жыл бұрын
Another reason why this battle can't be recreated in Bannerlord is the same reason why it works so much better in Rome Total War than in Rome 2 Total War, units pushing and displacing eachother based on sheer mass doesn't happen as fluidly and consistently. You can't have the center troops rubberband backwards in a disciplined fighting retreat, they'll just get cut down while trying to hold their place or turning around to move back. Units just aren't coded to step backwards and fight defensively to try to preseve their own lives because by and large they don't try to preserve their own lives.
@Quickandslick
Жыл бұрын
This is my point exactly. You can't simulate the human variable. Hannibal's men would have been desperately fighting for survival the whole retreat and wouldn't just disengage and try to just run away.
@mr.sandman1217
Жыл бұрын
Well the Romans did help Hannibal by blobbing in the center. The Romans IRL should've F1 + F3 instead.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Haha that's a great way to put it
@BB-nn9en
Жыл бұрын
Nice try! I say you still achieved impressive results given the circumstances. Now do Alesia :D. J/k.
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Thanks! Lol I wish we could make field fortifications like that
@stronins9579
Жыл бұрын
Could you possibily try this with a mod that has realistic fighting with the morale and stuff, im pretty sure in one of your previous videos you talked about a mod that does that?
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
There are mods that make combat a bit more realistic, but none that adjust the morale (at least not that I've tried). I'll take a look though, that's a good idea you brought up
@platt_mallar
Жыл бұрын
So, not all tactics work in Bannerlord. That's interesting though. Thanks for the video!
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Yeah I tried my best! The only way I could get it to work was to fight really weak enemies, but similar or stronger didn't work at all lol
@toegangtoegang6116
Жыл бұрын
I have a question can you control both sides in custom mode on Console because every time I play, I have to spawn in as a soldier
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
You need a mod for that and they don't have mod support on consoles (yet)
@Quickandslick
Жыл бұрын
You can't simulate individual troop discipline, strength, experience, and will to survive. Hannibal and his men were experienced veterans, in a foreign hostile land and the only way to live was cutting their way through a sea Romans. Which they seem to become proficient at evidently. Also, I think you might take casualties everytime you break away and reform because they turn around and move back as opposed to an organized gradual back step as you fight and maintain your line.
@freiherrbaronvonschaefer
Жыл бұрын
Ok, I didn't notice it at that time but I actually managed to recreate the tactic used here to some degree in one of my previous campaigns (note: i always do meme/half-serious campaigns, always involving console commands at certain points and did this with RTS Camera, MLWarband and without RBM). I had 4 infantry or archer lines with one as reserves and 1 cavalry and 1 (or 2) horse archers. As the enemy infantry get closer, center line pulls back and move the flanks to where I make a triangle with the enemy inside it then close in. In case of reinforcements, I peel off one line and replace it with the reserves, then rinse and repeat. My mounted units will either be guarding my flanks or harassing the enemy archers and stragglers. In case of enemy cavalry, I quickly form tight squares, then form back to lines or shield wall once they're dealt with. Worked against Empire and Sturgia, (works with Battania as well until I was outnumbered 3:1), then 1.1.0 happened before I could try it out against the rest.
@matts7125
Жыл бұрын
You should try this but with the eagle rising mod
@Strat-Guides
Жыл бұрын
Oooh that's a good point
@asraarradon4115
Жыл бұрын
The strength of the inverted crescent is not in your infantry enveloping your enemy's infantry, it's in controlling the coverage of their shields. By lining up in that way, all your shields will be pointed toward their skirmishers. As they fill in to meet your lines, the right half of their line will have their backs to your skirmishers behind the left side of your line, and mirror that for the other side. Hannibal made extensive use of slingers, and those slingers would focus of the soldiers towards the flank of each side. He also had an almost 2:1 cavalry advantage, which again he would use to defeat any soldiers trying to flank, as soldiers enveloping your line will have their backs turned to your cavalry. Once the flanks are won, then the enveloping happens to seal a catastrophic victory, but the battle was already won by that point.
@daryl-anthonymitchell6786
Жыл бұрын
One of the greatest generals that Africa has ever produced!
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