The fact that a woman,Irene of Athens,had been made empress of the Roman empire and not just a consort,was one of the reasons why the pope crowned the Frankish king Charlemagne as Holy Roman Emperor (of the west) in 800 A.D.
@rockstar450
3 жыл бұрын
The real reason was to show a permanent betrayal of the Romans and cement the new alliance with the Franks. The pope wanted the ability to crown kings so jumped at this opportunity to “divinely appoint” rulers. Although nobody in Europe called themselves “Roman”, as they were Franks in their own minds, Charlemagne was a multiple king by this point so a bigger title felt needed and “Emperor” seemed appropriate (remember this word was linked to the Roman Empire). This stab at the legitimacy of the Romans had little do do with Irene’s gender and more with the cancelled wedding and Frankish domination of Italy.
@ChevyChase301
3 жыл бұрын
@@rockstar450 it is notable that many emperors pissed off popes and even arrested them but Irene caused the most drastic kickback from Rome despite not doing the most harm such as constans II
@1p4142136
2 жыл бұрын
I actually think Charlemagne was crown emperor because he was the most powerful man ( barbaric chieftain ) in Europe at that time.
@Ragnarok__
2 жыл бұрын
@@rockstar450 Nonsense, first Charlemagne wasn't a barbarian. This is a myth of history buffs. The Caroligians descend from the Arnulfings family who were of the senatorial Clan Ferroulos. Charlemagne was Gallo-Roman eliteman. Second, the pope only saw the reality of Byzantine illegitimacy. It started with the descendants of Heraclius trying to impose their religious views on the church. The Isaurians dissolved Justinian's code(Roman law in essence). Left the eternal city to be harassed by barbarians. They impose heresies on all patriarchies, only Rome was saved. And now the Byzantines accepted female emperors. That was the last straw. Constantine VI was the last Eastern Roman Emperor. In the future the Byzantine Emperors would even recognize The Holy Roman Emperors as Emperors of Rome. It just show that they never really cared.
@rockstar450
2 жыл бұрын
@@Ragnarok__ wow you have no idea what you’re talking about. 1. Imposing religious views? Every state did this to some extend. If anything Catholicism was the imposing doctrine, changing the bible more than any other. This is not unique to Byzantium 2. The Franks WERE looked down on by Eastern Rome because Romans looked down on everyone. They never would have accepted a Frankish Emperor. Read some actual sources and understand this “proposal” has 1 source and likely fabricated to smear Irene. 3. Byzantines were viewed as the true Roman Empire, even by the Latins that divided the lands in 1204. They never acknowledged a non-Roman Emperor as “of the Romans”, Michael only gave “Emperor” because they weren’t in a position to challenge it. 4. You don’t understand German history if you actually think they connected as Romans at all. They didn’t, the HRE was a title for the German emperor above others. To think they were chasing “being Roman” is incredibly disrespectful to the many cultures there. 5. Irene was a regent and her son was never confirmed dead. If the Romans allow an Empress then that is the rule 6. Charlemagne’s crowning was more to do with divine right to rule . He was Frankish king over an emperor and his stamp still supported this. Look into their history and this was a means of getting legitimacy to rule, not being a Roman emperor…. This is a noob interpretation
@choppacast
3 жыл бұрын
Most of the visual depictions are of Irene (formerly Piroska) of Hungary, wife of emperor Ioannes (John) II Komnenos
@evanaskew6652
6 жыл бұрын
This woman makes Kyles mom look like a saint.
@mango2005
3 жыл бұрын
There were a few other female empresses, such as Zoe (the last ruler from the Macedonian dynasty) in 1028-50.
@radonrodan8332
3 жыл бұрын
I thought that was her sister Theodora R:1055-1056 was the last ruler of the Macedonian dynasty and i believe her third and last husband Constantine IX was emperor for 5 more years til his death.R:1042-1055.
@kaloarepo288
Жыл бұрын
Pulcheria of the Theodosian dynasty of the fourth century was also empress in her own right and also with her brother. Generally speaking Christianity improved the position of women in the empire as opposed to their status in the pagan empire - there was never an empress regnant in pagan Rome. If tthe wikipedia article on education in Byzantium can be trusted women were given an education there as well as men and later on Islamic travelers were surprised and even alarmed at the power women had in the eastern Roman empire.
@parastroika2393
17 күн бұрын
@@kaloarepo288 There is coinage that has led to speculation that Aurelian's widow Ulpia Severina may have reigned as Empress for a few months before Tacitus was acclaimed Emperor by the Senate. I'm not entirely convinced but it is an interesting historical footnote.
@TheNewPrometheus
3 жыл бұрын
Cerseis plotline in A Song of Ice and Fire is basically just Irenes
@JoeTheBroken
Жыл бұрын
Everyone always compares her to Margaret of Anjou but Cersei is def based more off Irene
@kaiserkonnigratzer1528
Жыл бұрын
That’s kind of insulting to Irene who was actually intelligent and a sincerely devout Christian. Cersei on the other hand is a sociopathic megalomaniacal narcissist who believes in nothing and whose only saving grace is her physical attractiveness and her family name.
@lordfarquaad2319
Жыл бұрын
@@kaiserkonnigratzer1528 Irene blinded her own son
@leezanda8430
9 ай бұрын
@@kaiserkonnigratzer1528 intellegent in what way? lmao. She's demented at head.
@countdowntorevolution9986
Ай бұрын
@@kaiserkonnigratzer1528lol yeah. deposing and blinding your own son doesn't say narcissistic sociopath at all.
@DemetriosLevi
6 жыл бұрын
2:23 "people who worship icons". They never worshiped Icons. Orthodoxy and Eastern Christianity in general forbids the worship of anything but God. Veneration is extremely different. That's not a minor mistake and extremely inaccurate.
@washizukanorico
4 жыл бұрын
No this is just your priests playing with words to justify visits to their shop and thus their revenues.
@washizukanorico
4 жыл бұрын
WarThunderers why do you think so? Where Catholics and orthodox priests get their food from if not people coming to their church to put some money in a box? I mean I saw non Christian priests having the same sort of business in some countries ... or do you mean Catholics and orthodox clergy are playing another game ? Not the game of money but the game of power?
@atticus6572
4 жыл бұрын
Demetrios, excellent comment! I thoroughly enjoy Thersites' videos, which makes the vitriol towards theology unfortunate; a critical component to understanding the late Romans.
@spiffygonzales5160
3 жыл бұрын
@@washizukanorico "Hey I found an inaccuracy" " *ME NO LIKEY GOD!!* "
@thenoblepoptart
2 жыл бұрын
your viewpoint is that of modern Orthodoxy, this was a time when the theology around icons was being hotly debated, and many people were accused of worshipping icons as idols in this period, and the iconoclast heresy was present.
@krisinsaigon
6 жыл бұрын
Love these videos Norwich 100% definitely rhymes with sandwich, it's a place in the U.K.
@Insectoid_
3 жыл бұрын
If you mean the wich part then yea lol
@olefredrikskjegstad5972
5 жыл бұрын
I noticed you mentioned Irene abolishing a "tax on receipts", which is exactly what you said in your video about Anastasius I. Had he not abolished it fully? Did it come back in some form? Or was it perhaps an error?
@ThersitestheHistorian
5 жыл бұрын
I assume that the tax was reintroduced after the financial disaster that was the Arab invasions and that Irene abolished it to gain popularity. That being said, I am not an expert on Byzantine tax policy and I'm not even completely sure where to find such information.
@HxH2011DRA
5 жыл бұрын
@@ThersitestheHistorian oof
@alanpennie8013
3 жыл бұрын
@@ThersitestheHistorian I think this was a fee which officials extracted from tax payers and put in their own pockets. They would tend to do this unless the emperor acted to stop them.
@divinodayacap3313
5 жыл бұрын
THIS WAS AMAZING
@1p4142136
5 жыл бұрын
People were blinded by using sharp needles like objects, hot bars, pouring hot liquid such as water or vinegar, or by covering the eyes with salt and wrapping a bandage around the eyes. Today some countries administer blinding as a punishment such as Pakistan. In Pakistan they put you out unconscious before they pour 1 drop of acid into one eye or both eyes. One person was blinded in one eye in 2012 and now he is awaiting to be blinded on his second eye due to the offense of splashing acing on her fiancée which ended up blinded her. It is possible to die of the injuries following a blinding due to infection.
@krystingrant6292
2 жыл бұрын
Oh shi
@ThrillaWhale
2 жыл бұрын
Dayummm. Pakistan is so whack.
@wood7206
6 жыл бұрын
Nikephoros I "Skullcup" will be next
@beeebz1192
6 жыл бұрын
Wood hehe
@wood7206
6 жыл бұрын
spoiling it for those who havent read the manga
@whiteoctober4582
6 жыл бұрын
RIP
@victorgaba8980
3 жыл бұрын
Irene was in Dire Straits indeed. I can't imagine the Sultans of Swing to the East helped in the least.
@ergoteleios
6 жыл бұрын
Ιrene the athenian, you are depecting, was not saint. Irene the queen of 12th ce. was saint. She married John II Comnenus the good (1118-1143).
@akbarralston9714
5 жыл бұрын
Komenos dynasty is the longest reigning in Byzantium history...
@der110
5 жыл бұрын
@@akbarralston9714 No, that was the Macedonian dynasty from 867 to 1056. The Komnenos have ruled "only" a hundred years
@antonkwanton5620
2 жыл бұрын
@@der110 the longest ruling dynasty were paleologians
@savabout6487
2 жыл бұрын
Bingo, Its a western myth that she was canonized.
@whiteoctober4582
6 жыл бұрын
TFW you blind your son and become a saint after your death
@Alexeiyeah
6 жыл бұрын
Classical hipocrisy. She's an unofficial saint because she fought against iconoclasts and promoted the use of icons. And I think people are a bit miffed against her, so MAYBE she ordering Constantine VI's blinding was a lie to defame her.
@AdriatheBwitch
5 жыл бұрын
@@Alexeiyeah It is possible that ppl asked actual bliding of constantine IV because he was so terrible that they dont wanted him to come back
@gloriaregali9090
5 жыл бұрын
Power is power. Also, the Bible is full of cruelty. Gods are cruel in many cultures. It's logical, because they have endless power.
@AdriatheBwitch
5 жыл бұрын
@@gloriaregali9090 Or because they see that humans suck so bad that they have to be cruel to teach them lessons i mean look at the atheist who did more harms than all religions in some years only
@Ghost-vi8qm
5 жыл бұрын
Your are mistaken this Irene with Irene of Hungary, wife of John II Komnenos (1118-1143). She was sainted.
@strahinjastevic7480
2 жыл бұрын
Please change the thumbnail, the representation is of John Komenos' wife Irene of Hungary, not Irene of Athens. Seems like you just got whatever came first on google image search.
@johnvonshepard9373
4 жыл бұрын
Dark Theme for Chrome
@divinodayacap3313
5 жыл бұрын
Real life Cersei Lannister
@Vini-zv3lr
4 жыл бұрын
Cersei cared for her children , even the most terrible one.
@sustainableinsanity
4 жыл бұрын
I agree he got lot of his ideas from Byzantine court and empire
@JonBrownSherman
2 жыл бұрын
04:56 I'm 4 years late but here's my guess about Tom Perez: after his election to DNC Chair in 2017 he immediately started filling positions within the committee with people who would owe him/be loyal to him, eg: Keith Ellison as Deputy Chair. How close am I??
@buildingandfixing4397
2 жыл бұрын
25:00 i cant believe they assumed she would blind her own son
@mariak9086
3 жыл бұрын
Yeah but did she have a bidet or no?
@jameshunk7211
Ай бұрын
Proof woman really are the destroyer of empires
@Alexeiyeah
6 жыл бұрын
1: Well, maybe Irene was "corrupted by power"? It's an old narrative but maybe not so untrue. She held the power long enough to wanting to maintain it. And that's not too absurd, because people can do too much to obtain power. Men fought hard to achieve the imperator, king or other position when they should have stayed really quiet, like during the Crisis of the Third Century, for example. 2: Are you asking people to not discuss minor things, especially grammar (basiles/basilissa)?! Are you even on the internet, Thersites?! What more do we do here? 3: Or, if you didn't have money in ancient times, you debased your currency and start a whole trend of super high inflation! 4: Pope Leo IV crowning Charlemagne as "Emperor of the Romans" looks like more a spit on the eye than a political statement per se, for his part. For Charlemagne, it would be a political statement. But medieval political culture was very different, I guess.
@0MVR_0
6 жыл бұрын
The idea that deficit spending was not a concept is inaccurate. Various generals have been known to pay their troops through literal I.O.U.'s such as Gaius Iulius Caesar during the . But I have not heard of an instance of a ruler instating such a thing so perhaps that is what you are refering to.
@ThersitestheHistorian
6 жыл бұрын
Correct, I was referring to the state as a whole engaging in deficit spending. Generals did it all the time on the promise that funds or plunder were coming soon. I guess you could make a case for generals in the field who are rulers as being examples of state deficit spending, but I think seems a bit like special pleading.
@0MVR_0
6 жыл бұрын
Opps forgot to close my sentence. Meant to say Caesaren Civil War. But yes state finance was usually budget spending. Field armies often allowed for more wiggle room especially with a renoun general.
@sidjoosin6549
3 жыл бұрын
Who told you that medieval women in charge is biased? Woman of common blood Joan of Arc lead armies and become saint - because she was saint, on the other hand if you blinded own son to seat his throne - even if you man, or male dog, or female dog - no matter because there wasn't such maniacs in all history of mankind, it is literally most disgusting creature in history, and I challenge you to name other creature, dog, human, male, female who make worse. Ivan the Terrible? No, he struck in rage his son, not conspired in order to blind. So question "is irene worst human in history, or may be 2-5 humans even worse" what bias you speak? Bias for that animal
@abdulhakimsaid9264
5 жыл бұрын
Udvozlet sepsiszentgyorgyrol, irenke neni, mar is isztambulba talalkoztunk egyszer!!most is hianzik nekem!
@Oscuros
Жыл бұрын
01:08 Norwich is the county town of the county of Norfolk, apart from being a surname, though in that case it's his title as a noble. It's a cathedral and castle town I've never, ever in all my 50 years heard it said like "Norwick", which just isn't English. I had to play it back 3 times to make sure, but also sort of astounded at that. I can't imagine another apparent native speaker having never come across it or heard it out loud before to say it like that, which completely lacks common sense, speaking of shooting from the hip and making things up as we go along. Since people in the US have little understanding about English or the culture there, while purporting to speak in our language and as a fellow, but aghast historian, here are the first few paragraphs about it in wikipedia. Said like "Norrich", obviously, to make it easier to pronounce, English is not a phonetic language and never was, you never say words phonetically and look for clues in the pronunciation in the spelling, since we don't use accents or other marks to denote diphthongs and the like. ""Norwich (/ˈnɒrɪdʒ, -ɪtʃ/ i) is a cathedral city and district of the English county of Norfolk, of which it is the county town. Norwich is by the River Wensum, about 100 mi (160 km) north-east of London, 40 mi (64 km) north of Ipswich and 65 mi (105 km) east of Peterborough. As the seat of the See of Norwich, with one of the country's largest medieval cathedrals, it is the largest settlement and has the largest urban area in East Anglia. The population of the Norwich City Council local authority area was estimated to be 144,000 in 2021, which was an increase from 143,135 in 2019.[4] The wider built-up area had a population of 213,166 in 2019.[2] Heritage and status Norwich claims to be the most complete medieval city in the United Kingdom.[5] It includes cobbled streets such as Elm Hill, Timber Hill and Tombland; ancient buildings such as St Andrew's Hall; half-timbered houses such as Dragon Hall, The Guildhall and Strangers' Hall; the Art Nouveau of the 1899 Royal Arcade; many medieval lanes; and the winding River Wensum that flows through the city centre towards Norwich Castle.[5] In May 2012, Norwich was designated England's first UNESCO City of Literature.[6] One of the UK's popular tourist destinations, it was voted by The Guardian in 2016 as the "happiest city to work in the UK"[7] and in 2013 as one of the best small cities in the world by The Times Good University Guide.[8] In 2018, 2019 and 2020, Norwich was voted one of the "Best Places To Live" in the UK by The Sunday Times."" Even when resettled by the Anglo Saxon invaders, it still predates Empress Irene as a name and place, but we can safely assume that the castle was built after the Norman invasion, about 2 centuries down the turnpike. ""The Anglo-Saxons settled the site of the modern city sometime between the 5th and 7th centuries,[12] founding the towns of Northwic ("North Farm"), from which Norwich takes its name,[13] and Westwic (at Norwich-over-the-Water) and a lesser settlement at Thorpe. Norwich became settled as a town in the 10th century and then became a prominent centre of East Anglian trade and commerce."" So we have to assume despite the bizarre pronunciation that you meant John Julius Cooper, 2nd Viscount Norwich, the historian, sort of John Cooper of Norwich, but he's the Viscount of Norwich. I honestly can't believe what possessed you to think anyone would say it like "Norwick".
@dariomatas788
9 ай бұрын
Only one minor point from me she may call 2nd council in niceae to give it more symbolic legitimacy, cuz one of most inportant if not the mosti inportan councile was ther. Ofc councile of nicaea.
@johnnymartinez8162
Жыл бұрын
what is tha crazy pic of a spce saucer?
@satanlover134
5 жыл бұрын
25:49 dude she sounds very competent, the iconoclasts were extremists, her son was incompetent. And you know take Charlemagne, no daughters married, lots of sons, the only engagement clearly spells out trouble. Like it seems clear that with a woman leader on one end and a big-shot at the other , that engagement is a red flag, he clearly seems like he wants to absorb Byzantium in to his empire and the beast way to do so is to turn the kid in to a puppet and shift the kids focus on to iconoclasm.
@anon-rf5sx
2 жыл бұрын
She made sure that Constantine didn't become competent, she hobbled his education. There's nothing wrong with being a female ruler, or an ambitious ruler, but the problem with Irene is that her rule was self-serving. She used the empire to put herself ahead, instead of using her ambition to serve the empire.
@AdriatheBwitch
5 жыл бұрын
Where i can find the pic you use at 26:38
@ChevyChase301
3 жыл бұрын
Do a reverse image search
@AdriatheBwitch
3 жыл бұрын
@@ChevyChase301 Thanks for the help, but i ofund it ong ago now haha but thanks anyway mate
@lilestojkovicii6618
3 жыл бұрын
And they say that women never had rights and were oppressed by the patriatchy
@khalednajada2514
3 жыл бұрын
I came here after arab abbaseds and byzintan war nephcors vs haron alrashid
@rickyyacine4818
2 жыл бұрын
After 830s the abaside will be degenerated
@yaboyed5779
3 жыл бұрын
Cersei Lannister vibes
@cassiopeia.-.k
4 жыл бұрын
Nice...
@ragael1024
3 жыл бұрын
What If Irene was a competent ruler?what if she actually knew how to invigorate the economy, to gain loyalty from the military, to build school/universities to boost learning even among the lower classes and generally improve life conditions within the empire itself? would she still had been ousted? or would she had forcefully married off to someone from the aristocracy and put her aside as just a consort?i am more and more fascinated with female rulers during the Middle Ages, Theodora and Irene showed it could had happened. and what if Anna Komnena had her wish and proclaimed empress? along with her husband, of course. Fascinating character. thx for the video
@akbarralston9714
5 жыл бұрын
She can't top Brunhilda...
@computer1-hc1qn
5 күн бұрын
Eh?
@JonBrownSherman
2 жыл бұрын
35:04 Forgive me this immature joke but you're telling me Irene became a... LESBIAN!?
@thehellezell
2 жыл бұрын
I thought she only had one leg
@countdowntorevolution9986
Ай бұрын
much though i love your content, it does include the odd bad take. top of the list has to be "irene was viewed negatively because of prejudice towards female rulers" um, how about because........SHE DEPOSED AND BLINDED HER OWN SON!!
@computer1-hc1qn
5 күн бұрын
Rulers can’t be judged by mundane everyday morality.
@countdowntorevolution9986
5 күн бұрын
@@computer1-hc1qn mundane like, er, not blinding your own son??
@MoveInSilence23
6 жыл бұрын
She's a lot like Hillary Clinton
@fuzzydunlop7928
6 жыл бұрын
In the sense that she held a position of power and has a vagina? I don't remember Shillery blinding her offspring, though she may occasionally eat one of them.
@MrProtopopescovici
5 жыл бұрын
never do that again
@mjcard
4 жыл бұрын
Or Pelosi
@krystingrant6292
2 жыл бұрын
😂😂😂
@beickus
8 ай бұрын
Irene the byzantine Medea
@HxH2011DRA
5 жыл бұрын
Sounds wack
@spartacat300
2 жыл бұрын
Girlboss gaslight gatekeep sorry about your eyeballs son
@thevisitor1012
Жыл бұрын
Slay
@messalina2984
2 жыл бұрын
So many historical mistakes in this video.
@ontologicallysteve7765
7 ай бұрын
10:15
@bluecorona868
2 жыл бұрын
why is ufo inthis video time stamp 25 16
@tomcustis9272
2 жыл бұрын
Interesting person, terrible ruler
@savabout6487
2 жыл бұрын
She gets a bad rap from a world dominated by chauvinism. Her son was incompetent. Its quite possible that she did not order his blinding. However, it is a western misconception that she is a saint.. Theodore the Studite wrote a praising letter] to Irene because of her work in supporting icons. This letter became the beginning of the misconception that Irene is considered a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Though this claim is not supported by the Menaion, the "Lives of Saints" by Nikodemos the Hagiorite, or any other related book of the Orthodox Church, some Western sources still cite Irene as a saint of the Orthodox Church, based on the writings of the Bollandists.
@karimmezghiche9921
Жыл бұрын
She deposed and blinded her own son, and destroyed the Empire's legitimacy in the West. Her reputation is a consequence of her own actions.
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