A better place for him to do it. Tomer has great points but doesn't express them as convincingly as Richard.
@bye1551
Жыл бұрын
@@bennettwadekamper8238 yeah Richard can say "the sky is green" and argue it well enough to convince at least one person, Tomer could say "No it's blue, look outside" and sound so unconvincing everyone who wasn't convinced by Richard would switch sides. Richard often has really bad arguments for really bad points but he just sounds convincing. Like when he was talking about how "bad" spot removal is because everyone else will have it, obviously countered with "well what if no one else plays spot removal and big threats destroy the game?" But instead everyone else tried to argue how good spot removal is, and lost not on principle but on convincingness.
@TheSpunYarn
Жыл бұрын
@Bye but Richard is right about that. It's generally fine to run only a small number of spot removal spells. And if you know the players in your Pod well enough, you can play the players/table as easily as you play your deck.
@chichoy5847
Жыл бұрын
To me Richard do have some solid point but when they go to disscue counter point to his argument, he often use slippery slope/"what about this" arguemnet to divert attention and just side step the problem. It's fine to bring in other example to give perspective but I find that a little annoying to not face the potential flaw in your argument. Just because something might be worse doesn't mean a bad thing isn't bad
@TheSpunYarn
Жыл бұрын
@@chichoy5847 everybody in the podcast suffers from trying to use "what if"s and hypothetical scenarios to bolster their arguments or dispute each other. It's a really unconvincing way to argue and is almost never used in total good faith.
@NotoriouslyADD
Жыл бұрын
All colors should be able to do basic things like: interact, draw cards, and ramp. Each color can do things in a different way. The colors can feel different and do things better based on color and it still be a good game. Relying on printing artifacts to make ramp viable in nongreen decks pushes decks to be extremely samey, whereas of there was color based ramp that was balanced you could have 15ish staples for mana in commander decks and then you can use the rest of the slots to play cards you want to.
@Zomburai45
Жыл бұрын
There's an issue that in 60-card and 40-card, drawing cards and ramp aren't actually basic. You do not need them to make a good deck. Thus, colors are good at different things. But the problem is that these ramp and draw cards are being put into 60- and 40-card formats so that Commander gets them. It kinda sucks for those of us that actually like Commander as ONE way to play Magic instead of THE way to play Magic.
@bye1551
Жыл бұрын
The colour pie should NOT impede mechanics, it should inform them and how they're achieved. All colours should have access to almost everything possible in the game (removal, ramp, card draw etc) but the flavour of how they do so ofc should be shaped around the themes of the colour.
@TarnaxTheBarbarian
Жыл бұрын
Exactly. Color choice shouldn't block you out of access to resources. It's okay if certain colors are even better at certain things, like green should be the best ramp, and blue should have the best card draw, but you shouldn't be denied these things just because you choose to play white. WotC just needs to hide these things behind mechanics that generally apply to a certain color. For instance, sure white can have ramp, but maybe gate it to meeting a certain life gain threshold, or something similair.
@Zomburai45
Жыл бұрын
@@bye1551 This is an argument to just get rid of colors entirely, tbh
@bye1551
Жыл бұрын
@@Zomburai45 I don't think it is tbh. The core and strengths of strategies can still be colour dependent. Black having damnation doesn't negate the fact that farewell is the best board wipe. White having mana tithe doesn't negate the fact that force of negation is the best counterspell. I mentioned in another comment that I think colour pie breaks are fine, and good even, as long as they're equivalent to, or worse than, the WORST option in the home colour of the mechanic. I'm fine with every colour getting a counter spell, as long as they're worse than the worst blue counterspell (that's still relatively playable) If feed the swarm was in green or white it would never see play, it would be a bulk uncommon that exists for draft and nothing else, but it being in black makes it a needed interaction piece so the core strategy of mono black (graveyard stuff) can still function (through graveyard hate and such).
@seandun7083
Жыл бұрын
In terms of color pie breaks, I like restrictions rather than requirements (I know the line is a bit fuzzy) so for example rather than a green counter spell that says "counter target spell that targets a creature you control" would be more palatable than "counter target spell if you control a creature with power 5 or greater". Pharika's libation feels like a more okay break than feed the swarm because it doesn't always hit what you want rather than hitting whatever with a requirement or downside. You can also give people different ways of interacting on a specific axis. If you want all our most colors to have the ability to interact with spells before they resolve, then there are more creative ways to do that than to give them all counter spells. Black gets hand attack, white gets effects like meaning mage and Thalia that make it harder to cast them, white and green can both stop things that mess with your stuff, and red can change targets, copy a spell, or hurt you for casting them with eidolons and cemetery gatekeepers. The next time you complain that not every color has counters, ask why no one complains that not every color has hand attack. I will also add that the color pie can be bent a bit for the flavor of specific sets. White getting zombies on Ahmonkhet for example, or blasphemous act dealing 13 because it's Innistrad. Blasphemous act is also only 1 mana in commander. In other formats it's often more expensive. If your opponent has 4 creatures and you have none, it's more expensive than wrath of God. Once they know you have it, it's easier to play around by not committing to the board. Given that star of extinction is 7 mana and so of you accepted it, if this is at 6, surely that's not a break. Also I would like to speak out in defense of gate to phyrexia in commander. It's a two mana enchantment they can blow up an artifact every turn at the cost of just a single creature, which of course isn't that big of a cost. The reason it doesn't see much play is primarily because it is on the reserved list and is therefore $65. Arcum Dagson and shape anew also deal with artifacts in blue in a similar way, though I guess Dagson is only artifact creatures.
@LK90512
Жыл бұрын
Feed the swarm is not a break, but an intentional expansion of the color pie so that 3 colors can deal with enchantments effectively (just like 3 colors can deal with artifacts). Apart from that I agree 100% with everything else you said.
@davidmorales-dm7xm
Жыл бұрын
On Blasphemous Act, the crew is waaay too fixated on the scenario when it's 1 mana wrath. In my experience it's NOT always so efficient.
@efnfen
Жыл бұрын
Agreed. Blasphemous Act isn't a one mana spell that kills everything every time so it's weird to judge that card instead of the one we actually have.
@williamdrum9899
Жыл бұрын
It's only a 1 mana wrath in commander
@mobiusstorm9768
Жыл бұрын
If I can try to articulate what Crim and Seth might be trying to say, I think color pie breaks are ok when it comes to interacting with permanents. We have well-costed colorless land removal, colorless graveyard hate, and every color has some way to remove creatures. All colors should be able to remove artifacts and enchantments as well with varying degrees of difficulty and success. Changes to card draw are more or less a reaction to the damage already done with green getting the amount of card draw it already has. And when it comes to stack interactions, I like Tomer's input of Reprieve for White and Tibalt's Trickery (you shouldn't be able to target your own spell) for Red. Give Green a hard counterspell at mana value 4 that gifts your opponent mana/ramps them non-basics. Personally, I feel all colors need some form of playable enchantment removal. Enchantments are certainly the strongest permanent type in my play group. Mass artifact removal is also tantamount to mass land destruction so Red and White feel hamstrung in what should be solidly in their wheelhouse, while the modal and targeted aspect of green artifact removal spells lets them feel unimpeded in spell selection and judicial casting. I also feel WotC shouldn't be printing cards catered to the Commander format outside of the Commander Legends sets, so I understand how difficult it can be to create a coherent argument about these topics. A question I can't quickly resolve is, what should the difference be between colorless permanent removal and colored permanent removal? Downsides? Frequency of printing? Idk. I just disagree with Seth's 'we have remove target permanent at home' approach.
@dontmisunderstand6041
Жыл бұрын
Efficiency is the answer. The question you can't resolve. Frequency of printing should NEVER be a solution to anything. A 5 cost colorless spell is easier to cast than a 3 cost multicolor spell, and easier than a 4 cost monocolor spell. You flat out need a +2 cost to not make the colorless spell an auto-include in any deck that doesn't naturally have that effect. I would argue it also should have another downside on top of that, otherwise they just take over the game.
@Zanzibawrr
Жыл бұрын
actually, the more i think about it the more i like the idea of colorless being the "6th color" of magic. that way you can break the color pie with the tradeoff that the colorless spell is overcosted. that way, it rewards the player for choosing to specialize in a color, but still gives the player options outside that color's strengths.
@muddlewait8844
Жыл бұрын
This is kind of what artifacts were *supposed* to do.
@origaminosferatu3357
Жыл бұрын
I think the central issue is that some effects are just better than others. Drawing cards and ramping will always be stronger than dealing damage or removing problem permanents. Especially in a multiplayer format with 40 life. On the other hand, in commander all players need to be able to deal with every kind of possible threat. All decks use almost all permanent types and with four opponents you need multiple ways of dealing with each one. However, if you give each colour access to each effect you make them all the same and if you give green draw as well as ramp you just make one colour legit better.
@WhitenedInk
Жыл бұрын
One thing that was frustrating was hearing examples of cards brought up as metrics for color pie breaks as if they represented a trend rather than being an exception. Murktide Regent is a color pie break, but it's also an *extremely* pushed card, so I don't think it's necessarily indicative of a greater trend in blue. Same with Richard saying that green could hypothetically get a GG counterspell because the best blue counterspell was the Force cycle - I don't think we should consider Force of Negation or Force of Will as the archetypical rate for a blue counterspell, but rather cards that are outliers. The typical blue blanket counter printed in sets is a Cancel with slight upside, so a green equivalent would need to be worse than that.
@OdinMagnus
Жыл бұрын
The color pie is important to the identity of the colors. I have a few decks that do what the color is supposed to do. My angel deck doesn't have counter spells or much of anything besides some giant angels and a few artifacts like Akroma's Memorial (even though I have 2 akromas in the deck lol) and the only card draw I have is Throne of Eldraine, I run Land Tax and Archaeomancer's Map to get my land drops. I have 2 sweepers, Farewell and Settle the Wreckage. My Black Rat deck runs lots of little creatures that kill opponents stuff and I run Attrition and Gravepacts and stuff like that, so my creatures dying is bad for you, so if you block and trade with my rat you then lose another creature. But then we get to my multicolor decks like my Zangief deck, the green side is ramp, red and black is for board control and Zangief is for the enchantment and artifact control. (and planeswalkers and battles too now). If you want a color to do something, find a way to add it, like there are artifacts that do everything you need. You just need to pay more. There are plenty of ramping artifacts, one of my favorites is Thaumatic Compass, it gets you a land and when you have 7 it flips into a Maze of Ith that still makes mana. That is usually the target of my Thespian Stage. White did have draw all the way back in Urza's Saga, but it the cost was giving your opponents life. It was an enchantment called Armistice, 2W and it cost 3WW to activate, you draw a card and target opponent gains 3 life. Was expensive and was almost never used, but it was there if you desperately needed it. Or you could just grab one of the "Tome" artifacts that drew you a card. Fool's Tome was really good for white back then since you would run out of cards really easy and it gave you a card for just 2 mana.
@SiNNeR90737
Жыл бұрын
Consider this, blue has counter spells that gives the opponent the option to pay extra for the counterspell to be mitigated. Why would the same type of thing be applied to other cards as well. E.G A black enchantment removal having a higher cost then blues counter spell or less effective. Instead of black destroying enchantment costing double the amount, instead sacrifice a creature or sacrifice a card with a matching card type. If blacks enchantment removal makes black have a enchantment to sacrifice in order to remove a enchantment same for a artifact. Just a little idea. What would be the issue with that?
@TheAverageGuyTAG
Жыл бұрын
I'm gonna be real; based on this video, it genuinely feels like the only person who has some grasp of the color pie and how it works is Tomer. At the very least, it's SUPER evident to me that the group here has not been paying attention to what WotC has been saying about the color pie and breaks vs. an evolution of the color pie.
@Dubbakendall
Жыл бұрын
I don’t think they really hit on what I think is probably the biggest impact of these “color pie breaks”, which is commander choice. In 60 card formats (and they mentioned this in passing) you can just splash a few lands of the color of the spell you want to include and you’re good to go. But in commander you’re a lot more limited in your card pool based on the colors of the commander you’re running. And I absolutely believe there should be a give and take to that. By giving a color a mono color way to deal with something they previously couldn’t you’re taking away the possibility of someone using a different commander. You can have a G/B commander and still run your almost monoblack deck adding in your green enchantment removal. I don’t think the color pie is necessarily about specific effects as it is in diversifying deck building. The current color combinations exist because you wanted effects in colors that didn’t have it. You want reds ability to destroy artifacts in your B/U deck? Play grixis. Also as for feed the swarm, do you think it would be as egregious of an offender if it was 1 black 1 green to cast?
@danikahicks2210
Жыл бұрын
The blue beast within already exists; its named capsize
@notimportant768
Жыл бұрын
I feel like there are some things some colors should be allowed to do that they have held off on in the past but they need to do it in specifically their own way making sure the colors that are good at it are distinctly better. monowhite soldiers in standard for example does have card advantage but it doesn't completely refuel just before a boardwipe or tempo like the WU version does, there's also distinctly not evasion, I should know I have played a good amount of monowhite soldiers. (i would question the quantity a little personally and generally as to these breaks) that being said some lines shouldn't be crossed or at least should be treaded more carefully, black target removing enchantments, especially as easily as feed does is one of them. inefficiency can definitely be a good way to gatekeep bends and breaks to commander only. I think blue should keep it's counterspells and it should stay in blue, sure maybe one exception for black, white is already secondary with methods to tax a spell and red has a few, but the density of these effects should be kept *very* low for all but blue, and there should be alternatives. White has removal, hushbringer like stax pieces that they could make temporary versions of if wanted, protection effects and situational and otherwise mediocre counterspells, green has protection effects for the sake of the boardstate, black doesn't have much but you can find something that is more than sac/lose life to break color pie, red has swats and such. there are a number of ways you could say no unique in each color if you tried hard enough without entirely stepping on blues toes. and to some extent they already have.
@mightyone3737
Жыл бұрын
You really need some Colour Pie breaks for Commander, it's too hard to build a viable mono-coloured deck in certain colours without some of the 'breaks' that are available. It's very important to remember that having one or two solutions available is very far from being 'good' at a thing, or even 'not bad', Black is still terrible at removing Enchantments, with Red and Blue being in a similar boat of having only so many ways to deal with that type. There are clear weakness' that will cost you games if you play Grixis, this helps make up for the fact that you'll win a ton of games where Enchantments didn't matter. Still, it's a very different position to be in to have no answers to a type and to have only 1 or 2 worth running or just having zero hope of ever dealing with a card type, aka how everyone felt when they made Planeswalkers and didn't print a way to answer them for years, it wasn't until after Oko that we got a few solid removal that hits PW, until then you were stuck with creature damage, and in 1v1 all the important PWs are very good at protecting themselves, that's what makes them good in part. There hasn't quite been any Commander screw ups on par with making the most annoying PWs a thing in 1v1, but with garbage like Dockside and the Fierce Guardianship cycle got reasonably close, it's just much harder to actually ruin a multiplayer format that has self-policing aspects rather than purely rewarding spiky play, but the card pool of Commander meant that as much as you guys talk about colour pie breaks, they used to be much worse. Black has access to both artifact removal and a creature counter, but those effects are weird/pricey enough that people ignore them in Commander, I think Gate to Phyrexia is a WAY bigger pie break than Feed the Swarm for example. Guys, I know you're better than this, Green is not the best colour in Commander, it's fine. White is still probably the weakest, but it's more of a budget thing now than raw potential, any good White cards are $$$, you can get great Green stuff for pennies, Green is great in Budget but if you're playing High Power or cEDH, Green is the colour you'd probably miss the least, the best ramp is artifacts, and what else exactly is Green bringing to the table at that power?? You're not casting Return of the Wildspeaker in your Tana deck afaik, most of the Green card draw is literally bad at higher power tables, where Blue and Black get really solid low-to-the-ground stuff that isn't situational. Green is fine in Casual, but even there it's not my first pick in actual practice, out of my 3 Allied Colour decks that are (supposed to be anyways) built around 'what the colours are good at' rather than 'what I want to do' all take a big dip in power for Green. Blue has counters and card draw, Black has removal, wipes, and some card draw, White is crawling with interaction while providing utility dorks, Red has really weird effects that fit various niches as well as being able to do a smattering of useful stuff (it has good wipes, general damage and it has a few interaction spells/effects worth running), Green has ramp and various situational cards, meaning if you want to do well with a Green deck you play 'on board' entirely, and tend to want to scream if your opponent does almost anything, be it countering, removing or wiping. You can build a deck with Green that doesn't just flood the board and pray, but that's literally what it's supposed to do, not doing that will cost you the game because your effects tend to be mana intensive. Black and Green don't really have stack interaction, having a couple cards that can help out is more or less like having nothing. The best colours for interaction are still Blue > White > Red, Green and Black are almost equally inept at this area, but Black can recover better than Green can when something goes wrong. Black has Imp's Mischief, Green has the two Veils, but I'd happily trade either for Pyroblast or Fireblast, to say nothing of Silence. I think Green could use more recovery options instead of constantly getting more and more 'win-more' cards. I like the old system of making Pie breaks cost more mana than usual, stuff like Desert Twister wasn't a problem because it was 6 mana and a sorcery. Beast Within is probably a mistake, which is why they 'gave' the ability to White (which desperately needed it, for a colour that was supposed to be good at removal White played essentially nothing but Swords and Path in a lot of lists, maybe Disenchant, it got so much garbage removal that sucked even in Standard), but I think if it was a Sorcery it probably becomes fine, I think the Instant part is the real Pie break. For the record, Beast Within isn't a 1v1 card because it's a terrible idea to give people a 3/3, a 3/3 is worth a full card in 1v1 and can easily cost you a game. Yes it can remove stuff, but we're literally talking about formats where Delver reigned for more than 10 years before being semi-obsoleted by a better 3/3 for 1, 3/3s are big. Are there decks where you want the removal that badly? probably, but I've seen lots of Green lists and I can't remember seeing Beast Within. Assassin's Trophy was worth a fortune and saw play, but getting a land is a lot wose than 3/3 in Standard. Colourless gets everything, but it's always a bad deal compared to coloured options at their best, that's the idea. The exceptions tend to be really good, I'm still shocked how often people run Solemn but it's 4 mana ramp stapled to a body that draws when it dies so people still sneak it into lists, but it should go without saying that you should usually just run another land and hope to cast an actual 4 drop that does something instead on turn 4, most decks aren't going to flicker it or recur it. Yes, sure, no auto-include colourless cards see print, it's not like they'd print an entire cycle of Swords that are barely more mana than a Bonesplitter, a card that WotC clearly decided was 'a problem' since they printed massively worse alternatives over and over. But yeah, they wouldn't just print overpowered cards that go in almost every deck to sell cards right (I only have 1 Sword, and if I use it i'll be in a deck that cares explicitly about the ability, I hate 'goes everywhere' stuff as a rule). Just to be clear, Swords with stupidly overpowered abilities aren't a problem, but the lowly Bonesplitter was, you know why? Mythic rarity is something WotC thinks 'solves' the issue of printing overpowered cards, it's like they borrowed some of Garfield's worst predictions and ran with them (he thought people would have a very small collection and cards would be nearly worthless, it'd be a fun hobby rather than an even more addictive gambling alternative), only unlike him they LITERALLY knew better and keep printing unfun cards to pander to spikes who's only purpose in the community is driving away casual players, so we keep getting a new Mind sculptor to ruin Modern/Legacy, as everyone else has pointed out WotC has set things up so that Modern and Eternal formats now have to rotate (or just ignore the new broken card), and we all know WotC has likewise decided that 'make money from old formats' = 'charge way more for packs that have newly minted staples'. I'm not sure why you guys think Chaos stuff is a colour pie break for Red, 'turn game on it's head' is very much in Red's pie. Tibalt's Trickery would never see print as a Blue card (people would laugh at it outside combos), it's very Red, same with Chaos Warp, these don't have another potential home. Damnation was a break when it was done, but it wasn't without precedent, Chaos Warp isn't even a bend IMHO, it's just what Red does. Seriously, now Seth is saying Blasphemous Act isn't Red????? Wth other colour can do this?! Have you literally never seen stuff bigger than 13 Toughness? Sheesh. Also, Blasphemous Act is not as good a wipe as any Destroy wipe, damage based wraths are easily the worst wraths, falling behind even most bounce wraths, it's also hard to make it one-sided in Red, White can easily make it's Destroy stuff one-sided. Blue already has some 3 mana theft effects here and there, but 3 mana is too little for unsituational theft, which is what Richard is talking about. 7 mana is probably fine for the effect, there are multiple variants of this (including Memnarch, who can do it over and over for 7 total). For the Black version of 'deal with stuff' is Make an Example, it's narrow but it's unprecedented power in many ways. Which set a thing occurs in should be completely irrelevant IMHO, if a Pie break is too big, it shouldn't matter if it's from Planar Chaos or something.
@mightyone3737
Жыл бұрын
Seth's 2UU 'bounce target creature to the top of opponent's library. That player Mills 2.' is only an issue at 4 mana, it's too direct, Blue already pays ~4 mana to bounce things to put stuff on top, adding the Mill would always add more mana, and in context I'd expect such a card to be 'fine' at 4UU, when nobody will ever play it. I'm not sure Blue should get Pongify, but Resculpt is a pretty ugly card for Blue to get, Blue shouldn't be exiling creatures at Instant speed (that should be very much in White's pie), and making a 4/4 is too big for a Blue spell (you can turn a Memnite or token into a 4/4, which is beefy for Blue). Ravenform is fine, Resculpt bothers me a bit, but I put it under 'I need some artifact removal in Blue, so I'm not going to complain about 2 cards doing it'. I agree that Blue can already solve anything, but I'd have been much happier if they hadn't given Blue a period when it arguably had better creature removal options than White (in terms of how many playable options that had in Commander), Pongify, Rapid Hybrid, Reality Shift, alongside various cheap Theft effects, meanwhile White literally was still stuck with Swords, Path and various draft-chaff if it wanted anything more, White was better at wiping than Blue, but if you wanted a creature gone at Instant speed Blue was about as relevant as Black, and both were better at it than White. TBH even now Deadly Rollick is the best creature removal, observably not White. At least White got Generous Gift, as well as a few other options since.
@SunriseCavalier
Жыл бұрын
I think the various colors can tip toe into the others' abilities only once or twice and only for an overcosted amount. If feed the swarm was 4 Mana then I think it would be okay. Same thing with blasphemous act if it was 7 damage and two red pips instead of one (or if it cost 13 colorless and one red). Chaos warp is on point. It's a Gamble and that's very red. Personally, beast within should never have been made, imo, unless it said "noncreature permanent" and pongify just doesn't make sense as a blue card.
@empurress77
Ай бұрын
Without even watching ten seconds i'll say IMO: Yuuuuuup! Green does everything. White does everything. Black does almost everything. Red does almost everything. I'm actually feeling (A tiny bit) sorry for blue being left to the same tired bounce/counter and tap, draw BS. Edit: A fair added restriction for green counterspell would be giving their opponent a ginormous creature. A fair counterspell for red would be give a choice of indestructible to the opponent. A fair damage drawback for blue would be opponent draws cards or phases something(s) out. Full disclosure: I'm fine with every color doing all the things with appropriate color pie restrictions and drawbacks.
@happybrain2674
Жыл бұрын
Hot take: the colors break the pie most with colorless. cause you can now ramp, draw, remove and more just by using colorless. cedh would be completely different without all the fast colorless mana like solring ^^
@thatepicwizardguy
Жыл бұрын
fast mana in general is a problem that got way way way out of hand and there's almost no way to go back on that now without a mass ban.
@Shimatzu95
Жыл бұрын
I personally expected more colorless spells after strixhaven. That way we could gave a 4-5cmc generous gift kind of card for every deck.
@TravvyBear262
Жыл бұрын
"you should not be able to play any mono color deck other than blue" -Seth
@atrop19
Жыл бұрын
I don't think fight broke the color pie. Green had lure effects to interact with opponents creatures with their own creatures, and fight is just a much better version of that (most of the time).
@sstankfish
Жыл бұрын
Nature's Negation 1GG Counter target non-creature spell. Cast Nature's Negation only if a land entered the battlefield under your control this turn.
@joekendall8401
Жыл бұрын
Blasphemous act is NOT a colour pie break. HEAR ME OUT. It's not because it's from the before times when they were still designing cards for standard. It was a wrath that wasn't playable in the format it was designed for. That's very red. Cards being designed for standard functioning differently in commander used to be part of the appeal of the format. Feed the swarm feels bad because it was designed to fill a utility gap in commander and we all know it. If they made an updated barter in blood that cost 5 and said "each player sacrifices 3 nonland permanents" it would be able to deal with enchantments but noone would bat an eye at the colour pie.
@baconsir1159
Жыл бұрын
Fascinating hearing Crim actually defend green getting draw power while everyone else is against it. Feels like opposite day.
@RisottoNero-z1w
Жыл бұрын
It was the very thing balancing green up to 3 years ago
@williamdrum9899
Жыл бұрын
I don't know how I feel about it. At least it's based on creatures. Seems like Khans of Tarkir block was when green started getting card draw. I always joked that there was nothing blue about Temur, but really there was - it was just that green's color pie started gaining card draw
@itsthekid9815
Жыл бұрын
@@RisottoNero-z1wI have zero idea what you are talking about. Tireless tracker, garruk, harmonize, regal force, glimpse, sylvan library, the enchantress duo and others were all from well past 3 years ago.
@williamdrum9899
Жыл бұрын
@@itsthekid9815 Planar Chaos and the first 3 years of mtg don't count
@TheSpunYarn
Жыл бұрын
A huge part of Color Pie discussion in Commander that people miss out on is the Legacy Cardpool. The larger the card pool, the further back you pull your perspective, the more blurry the Color Pie gets. Each color has evolved over time (which is mentioned) and will continue to.
@williamdrum9899
Жыл бұрын
Back then they didn't know what they were doing
@wesleywyndam-pryce5305
Жыл бұрын
@@williamdrum9899 do they now?
@williamdrum9899
Жыл бұрын
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 Only in terms of color pie
@singerbradley
Жыл бұрын
I think what's really being overlooked here is that the color pie was designed with 1v1 formats in mind. The color pie attempts to show the uniqueness of the colors by assigning strengths and weaknesses that are fair in a 1v1 format. Red not being able to remove a creature with 7+ toughness and Green/White not being able to draw cards are not reasonable weaknesses in Commander. What's difficult is trying to stay true to the ideals of the color pie while also supporting the colors in the context of Commander. Overall I wouldn't say giving White card draw in Commander that "feels like it adheres to the color pie" is a bad thing because it's something White desperately needs to stay relevant. There's some extreme where this leniency breaks down, but I can't say it's categorically a bad thing.
@kyleellis1825
Жыл бұрын
Very true. Commander needs to play with both the OG colour pie and the Planar Chaos colour pie used in card design. White is awesome in limited/1v1 games and TERRIBLE in commander.
@kylegonewild
Жыл бұрын
"I'm glad green got to draw cards" Crim said through gritted teeth.
@mtgtinfoilthaumaturge1102
Жыл бұрын
See the card “lifeforce” then see the card “painters servant” you are welcome. Welcome to the legion of the enlightened. Green by nature breaks the card lifeforce into possibly the best counterspell ever. It all boils down to statistics that are way to complex to type out.
@Suavek69
Жыл бұрын
@@mtgtinfoilthaumaturge1102 same with deathgrip in black
@mtgtinfoilthaumaturge1102
Жыл бұрын
@@Suavek69 in my opinion deathgrip use to be the best of the three because it would hit most enchantment removal with it’s activated ability. Nowadays there is a lot of permanent and enchantment removal in black so lifeforce pretty much protects itself similarly
@LK90512
Жыл бұрын
Sadly I didn't get to see Tomer's comments because I listen to the podcast in background, but to me Crim is the mvp of this episode. I think it's the first time I agree on him on almost everything (I would be 100% fine with a a black demystify), and that quote shows how much he's committed :D
@elijahwalker323
6 ай бұрын
But the problem is it is so much easier to draw cards in green than like any other color in commander.
@neightwards
Жыл бұрын
While I definitely enjoy Tomer being in the cast, him getting saucy while editing is certainly hilarious haha.
@TheCommunistGamerTV
Жыл бұрын
Gotta get in by saying that Blue exiling artifacts was made for sixty card formats, but since getting a token in exchange is such a negligible cost in commander they had to axe the plan entirely. Ethan Fleischer did a Blue Council of Colors interview with MaRo recently and was very clear about this.
@CommanderParatus
Жыл бұрын
Where do you find that interview
@Tvboy777
Жыл бұрын
@@CommanderParatusMark Rosewater's 1,000+ episode podcast is called "Drive to Work".
@MakeVarahHappen
Жыл бұрын
Commander is such a broken format that people scrounge for limited chaff for their decks. Feed the Swarm, Rescuplt, and Ravenform are not good cards but Commander players don't play good cards so they need them.
@An0xymoron127
Жыл бұрын
@@MakeVarahHappen what do you mean ravenform is basically swords
@MakeVarahHappen
Жыл бұрын
@@An0xymoron127 I want to assume this is sarcasm, but if it's not: 3 mana swords is not swords.
@baconsir1159
Жыл бұрын
9:45 - It's the most played because a whopping THREE of the 5 colors struggle immensely with enchant removal. It's not a good card in any deck with white/green, but the other 3 colors are so desperate that a sorcery speed Mortify with downside starts looking more appealing. As for the "old artifact removal isn't played" argument, that's probably because the only that isn't straight-up unplayable is Gate to Phyrexia at $50 while only working well in sac decks.
@KellyUnekis
Жыл бұрын
I'm at least glad to see Haunting Wind from Antiquities picking up steam. It's global but still wonderful anti treasure/clue/etc tech.
@PiApproximate
Жыл бұрын
i run Feed the Swarm in my Meren deck along with tare asunder because even being sorcery it is still aggressively/competitively costed at 2 and has more then one type to target, i run it over doom blade even tho it is also 2 mana but only targets creatures, non black aside, a multi player format favors flexibility a lot more then most give it credit for.
@baconsir1159
Жыл бұрын
@@PiApproximate Yeah, that's why you run Assassin's Trophy and Beast Within. If you're looking for enchant removal in green that can potentially threaten creatures, there are better options. And ofc you run it over Doomblade, doomblade is ass cheeks in commander. Might as well just run Snuff Out at that point, at least that's 0 mana.
@PiApproximate
Жыл бұрын
@@baconsir1159 i run those too
@baconsir1159
Жыл бұрын
@@PiApproximate Golgari Charm will also be better 90% of the time, and there are a million creatures that remove a creature/artifact/enchant on ETB you’d want for the reanimation synergy. Canoptek Tomb Sentinel for example. Feed the Swarm is almost certainly not the right choice in Golgari.
@BezNomen
Жыл бұрын
I mean look at standard. White has so much card draw in wedding announc and warden that it can play midrange gameplan all by itself. I'm 100% sure both of those cards were made with commander in mind.
@kyleellis1825
Жыл бұрын
White should draw from the bottom of the deck/search for land from the bottom of the deck instead of the top. Or even just creatures that can be morphed into basic plains.
@wesleywyndam-pryce5305
Жыл бұрын
@@kyleellis1825 why?
@kyleellis1825
Жыл бұрын
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 Becaause until recently, no one drew from the bottom and white needed card advantage.
@thetrinketmage
Жыл бұрын
I feel like artifacts was always the solution to this. Every color can use Karn Liberated to remove any permanent type if they really really wanted. But it is expensive. Artifacts should be an overcosted or worse version of effects that decks can use to shore up weaknesses. We don't need color pie breaks
@Maccabeus87
Жыл бұрын
LOL at Tomer "writing over" the opinions of the others.
@kwagmeijer26
Жыл бұрын
I think it's worth trying to figure out which of these color pie breaks are due to commander, because I don't think Feed the Swarm was created for commander.
@TheObstalace
Жыл бұрын
I'm really a fan of this 5 man podcast setting! Everyone added good points
@philipkelly7369
Жыл бұрын
I'm not
@serse8455
Жыл бұрын
@@philipkelly7369 I'm ambivalent.
@adeorose
Жыл бұрын
Maro comes in with a steel chair to teach everyone the meaning of bend vs break
@MakeVarahHappen
Жыл бұрын
I would love for them to like, read his design articles if they're gonna dedicate an episode to it.
@meatrace
Жыл бұрын
@@MakeVarahHappen Or, it's okay for users to have a different language to describe a product than its creators do.
@zeroisnine
Жыл бұрын
Table and chairs match
@MakeVarahHappen
Жыл бұрын
@@meatrace they don't need to agree but they asked a lot of questions that have been answered elsewhere. Being informed doesn't hurt anything.
@wesleywyndam-pryce5305
Жыл бұрын
its a pointless semantics debate.
@stronggreenflame
Жыл бұрын
I agree that a lot of the examples are from before commander was popular so it doesn't seem like commander is the main cause. Beast within sees almost no play in 60 card decks. So it was bad enough that it wasn't that big of a color break.
@WillfulVisions
Жыл бұрын
I feel like it is incredibly flavorful for black to be breaking the color pie so long as there is a significant life / sacrifice cost. Their whole thing is more-or-less 'power at any cost'.
@KellyUnekis
Жыл бұрын
I think it's been accelerated by commander. Color pie breaking in general is as old as the game itself though.
@vinnythewebsurfer
Жыл бұрын
The thing I think saffron is missing that while weakness and strength should be empathized to colors; the fact of the matter is that the strengths and weaknesses of the colors are hardly equal and they were never actually balanced from the start of the games existence. Green not having proper board wipes or counterspells is hardly on the same level as white being restricted from card draw for so long.
@jo_ken
Жыл бұрын
Probably would’ve been a good point to mention yeah. Each color’s weaknesses aren’t equal to other color’s weaknesses. And comparing yeah green not getting boardwipes isn’t comparable to white not having good card draw. I’d still describe most of white’s new card draw as not good since it requires you to jump through a hoop or give cards to an opponent.
@IzzetTempo
Жыл бұрын
As someone who has recently dabbled in mono white commander, I'll say the card draw is pretty busted and I think they went a little overboard with it. I wish they found a more interesting way to give white card advantage, like they did with red by impulse draw instead of real draw.
@eulefranz944
Жыл бұрын
Especially when it comes to a 4 player format which is slower Even if green got nothing, it is inherently better in commander
@hanschristopherson8056
Жыл бұрын
Cough cough blue in 60 card
@SmartAlec1
Жыл бұрын
I don't agree with that example, but I do agree that fundamentally they were not properly balanced at the start: Blue had exclusive access to the stack and could bounce any permanent. And then draw to do it more. Fundamentally blue had everything.
@enmanuelrondon9700
Жыл бұрын
I think counter spells are considered within color pie for white but wizards are too squeamish to print them because how bad most people hate being counter spelled.
@josephcourtright8071
Жыл бұрын
I agree but white shouldn't have hard counters. It should be a tax card, but after the fact.
@dontmisunderstand6041
Жыл бұрын
Counterspells should only ever be blue, and tbh I think they all should come with "this spell costs an additional x to cast, where x is the mana value of the targeted spell". A series of 1 for 1s guarantee you win a 1v1 match eventually, if you're the one choosing which spells do and don't go through. To get a mana advantage from those 1 for 1s on top of that is just far too powerful. imo, removal in every color should be distinct. Blue counters before it even hits the field. White exiles. Green fights. Red burns. Black destroys. We can extend this same principle to every type of card interaction. Tempo plays, blue bounces, white protects, green pumps, red hastes, black regenerates. Resource advantage, blue draws, white gains life, green ramps, red loots, black trades life for resources. Not every color should do every thing. They all necessarily SHOULD have weaknesses. Red does not have a way to deal with enchantments, that's part of what makes red red. White is the only board wipe color, and that's a fundamental part of its identity. The more things each color CANT do, the better and more balanced the game will be. Overlap can make sense, sure. But green should not do blue things better than blue. Red should not do green things better than green. So on and so forth. Divination is draw 2 for 2U. With this setup, ONLY blue should get that level of value with card draw.
@williamdrum9899
Жыл бұрын
These new battle spells should be countered by white since one of white's themes is peace which should prevent a battle
@kyleellis1825
Жыл бұрын
Black and white should both have counters. Black gets over cost/secondary cost ones, white gets specific ones like banishing as it is countered/tax effects on the counter.
@wesleywyndam-pryce5305
Жыл бұрын
@@dontmisunderstand6041 counter spells not being accessible to every color was the single biggest design mistake in all of magic the gathering history. a core function of the game should not be color locked.
@vavakxnonexus
Жыл бұрын
I am feeling Tomer's agony in having to express all this stuff from the editor's room. Might be the most editor's notes we've seen thus far. Also, I'm surprised the folks get so hung up on destroying permanent types, since that's honestly never felt like a particularly defining aspect of the colours to me. It's like agonizing over a technicality.
@kyleellis1825
Жыл бұрын
It was outlined as a core difference in the early days. Some of the instruction booklets even explicitly stated the ways different colours would get rid of an opponents creature. "Green will hit it with something bigger, white will make it unable to fight, blue will send it to the hand, red will damage it, and black will kill it outright." So for older players, it's kind of always gonig to be a sticknig point.
@ninshjok
Жыл бұрын
They literly said that they were expanding the color pie, thanks tomer for adding it as text. Also in commander there are "old cards" that break the color pie that they are more common than other formats. I think there are more color pie breaks in modern than commander by modern I mean modern horizons XD
@IzzetTempo
Жыл бұрын
That doesn't make a ton of sense because all those modern horizons cards are in commander so they're also color pie breaks in commander
@soleo2783
Жыл бұрын
@@IzzetTempo I think he means proportionally
@IzzetTempo
Жыл бұрын
@@soleo2783 you rite you rite
@jmnaccount
Жыл бұрын
You hear a lot of big talk on this channel, but I'd like to see the commander clash crew put their ideas to the test! So, I'm issuing this challenge: color pie week! Here are the rules: 1. Each person makes a mono-colored deck of a different color. 2. Each person has to make their deck while observing the color pie as strictly as possible! Green can ramp to the moon and play big creatures, but no boardwipes or creature removal, blue is the only color with access to any kind of card advantage, white is the only color with access to boardwipes, etc. 3. No using deck construction or colorless spells to get around color pie restrictions. For example, no using mana rocks to ramp in non-green decks, and no flickering cantrip creatures in white! I don't think that you would even need to play a game with these rules to see that color pie shifts help the game feel more fun and balanced, and that these rules wouldn't make for a very fun playing or viewing experience, but the Commander Clash can always play a game with these rules and prove me wrong!
@philipkelly7369
Жыл бұрын
how about if you want to play within the rules of commander instead of forcing the ENTIRE game to warp itself to your restrictions you just PLAY SOMETHING OTHER THAN A MONO COLOR
@danieldelaney1377
Жыл бұрын
@@philipkelly7369 exactly.
@adeorose
Жыл бұрын
Tomer didn't fight hard enough, the Council of Colors and Maro are crying right now
@baltosstrupelos302
Жыл бұрын
Maro has talked about how they COULD make the following: A Flash 3 mana Green creature with deathtouch that fights on ETB. But, they haven't yet. His reasoning was "That's just a Murder."
@LK90512
Жыл бұрын
Uncle Istvan doesn't see Maro's point
@captainnermy5608
Жыл бұрын
Didn’t he use that specifically as an example of how things can technically be in the color pie but still go agains the spirit and thus should be avoided?
@ImAlexhearmemehYT
Жыл бұрын
That's so much better than murder though. Creature shenanigans are much better than spells
@Metroid23456
Жыл бұрын
Restrictions breed creativity - Mark Rosewater
@wesleywyndam-pryce5305
Жыл бұрын
why should I gave a shit what mark thinks? he's just some dude.
@andyspendlove1019
Жыл бұрын
I wish Tomer had been on this one too. As he pointed out on screen, Feed the Swarm isn’t a color pie break. They expanded the color pie to give enchantments a third color that can remove them (G,W,B) the way artifacts have three colors that hate them (G,W,R). It makes sense. It was interesting to see Seth and Richard represent the boomer mentality toward the color pie and Crim and Phil represent the progressive young blood philosophy. It made for an interesting podcast. But Richard and Seth acting like the color pie doesn’t exist anymore so “why not add a sixth color, it can do everything too” is kinda ridiculous.
@MTGGoldfish
Жыл бұрын
I mean, isn't expanding the color pie the same as breaking it in practical terms?
@RyanEglitis
Жыл бұрын
@@MTGGoldfish It represents a new standard. The old standard is gone, so I guess it's broken if you really want to be pedantic, but the current philosophy is reflected in the cards. The difference is with actual breaks, like Beast Withiin or Chaos Warp, where they don't fit in the new or old philosophy.
@raedien
Жыл бұрын
On top of these guys not knowing older cards that some of the bends/breaks are call backs to. Richard not knowing that Decree is older than Damnation is a huge tell for example. I play a ton of Black. Feed the Swarm does not make it into my decks. I'll play Ostone or Ndisk or Ugin before Feed the Swarm. Blashpemous act is good. It is not a break. It is not as good as other sweepers. It just isn't. I'm not saying they were wrong...but to say it isn't Red AND say it's "effectively" destruction AND not being up the various Red sorceries that are even older like Obliterate, Apocolypse, or even newer like Worldfire totally undermines their credibility. The issue is that players and WotC continue to downplay the narrative and flavor of Magic in order to digest it easily. Red deals damage...yes...but it's also supposed to be the spell casting color on a similar if not equal level to Blue. Big sorceries and tricky instants are part of Red's pie. Fork is the original copy/redirect. Do I want every color able to do everything? No. But when we look at what the colors are supposed to represent it makes sense that if any color could do everything it should be Black....at a cost. Yet it still doesn't. For gameplay reasons. The fact is the game has issues from the start, still has issues, will always have issues...but we should move towards better balance when possible and ideally closer to the narrative concept when possible. And yeah, Beast within should at minimum should only be able to hit opponent's creatures, just like Feed the Swarm can't hit your own Enchantments. It probably shouldn't be able to hit creatures at all.
@andyspendlove1019
Жыл бұрын
@@MTGGoldfish Maro, who essentially invented our modern conception of the color pie and is the chief person responsible for its maintenance at Wizards, gave an extremely logical reason as to why black should be third in removing enchantments, to better balance the game. They aren’t just doing it to sell packs of Zendikar Rising, (which I do think they HAVE done before with stuff like Jeweled Lotus and any number of other busted chase mythics). If ever there was a legitimate time or reason to evolve and expand the color pie, as was done with black wraths like you talked about or red impulse draw etc, this was it, imo. Again it’s a very very boomer mentality to call any change in the existing color pie (or the color pie since X, Y, or Z time that you started playing since we’re all used to Beast Within and Chaos Warp) a color pie break. It’s a good and healthy thing for the designers to be able to fix flaws in logic (enchantments only having two hating colors while artifacts have three) or address concerns (white card draw, within reason) as they come up.
@ZackeroniAndCheese
Жыл бұрын
@Andy Spendlove They're not fixing flaws in logic. They're changing the logic so that the modern game doesn't reflect the Magic that existed for the first 20 years
@alaricpaley6865
Жыл бұрын
I always just thought that making colorless able to do anything at an increased cost was the normal, more reasonable option. Or the other route of making colourless cards that synergized easier with the colors. That was the original trade off. The issue we had with that though is colorless solutions becoming a "Must have" staple, so...
@dontmisunderstand6041
Жыл бұрын
Colorless should be THE way to get monocolor decks inefficient versions of effects their color can't get. But for some reason it's not. It's such an obvious solution that I don't get why they don't do that.
@alaricpaley6865
Жыл бұрын
@@dontmisunderstand6041 i mean, I can sort of see that the only fear with that is that means green with its ramp can just do anything as well, so they sorta designed themselves into a bit of a corner.
@dontmisunderstand6041
Жыл бұрын
@@alaricpaley6865 That's why you stick to the color pie. Green is only actually great because it breaks the color pie more than any other color. Ramp doesn't matter if it's still behind on mana because of how much more expensive the generic colorless answers are than the on-color effects.
@MakeVarahHappen
Жыл бұрын
Wizards of the Coast has written more on the topic of game design for card games than anyone on the face of the planet. I'd love for you guys to read what they have to say if you're gonna dunk on them. I think a lot more of these cards makes sense when you take into account their process.
@matthewbajkowski2210
Жыл бұрын
Can we get a follow up 10 to 15 minute episode with Tomer joining in? Maybe make it a mini cast.
@jerryloiselle8507
Жыл бұрын
This!
@RasmusVJS
Жыл бұрын
Feed the Swarm is by definition not a color break, since it's part of black's identity to remove enchantments now.
@CypherWyrm
Жыл бұрын
I actually think Crim's example of Overcharged Amalgem is a perfect card to showcase the Color Pie Working Great Strategically. Zombie decks are primarily Blue/Black (sometimes white now with amonkhet) and WoTC is aware of this. They put a card that can counter in blue's pie but knowing that it'll likely be in a deck with black as well, gives its ability functionality in a black flavorful way. Thus creating a way for zombies that wouldn't normally run counterspells (unless there was just a really good one to run) to run a counter spell
@slooni13
Жыл бұрын
I think we need a part 2 with Tomer.
@bluline.
Жыл бұрын
For Phil: Ezuri’s predation is pretty good in my Naya beast deck, it focuses on ramping so getting to 8 is pretty easy and playing big creatures means that I’m really only worried about small creatures in go-wide strats which Ezuri’s predation is made for. Also, Ezuri’s predation is actually pretty great pseudo card-draw and can even be a finisher with enchantments like Garruk’s uprising and elemental bond for draw as well as warstorm surge and aether charge for damage
@bye1551
Жыл бұрын
Personally, I think colour pie breaks are fine as long as they're worse than the *worst option* of whatever the best colour at that effect has. So, for example, no counterspell outside of blue should be better than the worst blue counterspell, either in limitation of options and being super niche OR in cost.
@MTGGoldfish
Жыл бұрын
I could get behind this, although the worst blue counter is probably pretty bad (I'd actually have to do some research to figure out what it was, lol).
@Tgaxgriffen
Жыл бұрын
I feel like this is a pretty fascinating topic to me. I think colorless spells that do everything inefficiently is the solution. I looked forever for enchantment removal in my mono black deck and other then feed the swarm my other solution was intro to annihilation. It’s five mana and sorcery speed but I’m happy I have at least have an option. I like having that restriction in deck building. I purposely only play three colors or less with most of my decks being at two and like only one or two at three. I enjoy trying to find interesting work arounds.
@bartoszganko5290
Жыл бұрын
Personally I think colorless spells is a bad solution since it leads to more homogeneity in the format and less play diversity. In addition since green is so much better at ramping that other colours these cards are better in it that in other colours. It's a very hard problem to answer since every solution has its own risks
@LK90512
Жыл бұрын
But colorless is not immune from the color pie logics: if we follow a strict logic, colorless should be able to do only things that would be allowed in any color, or do them very inefficiently (much more than a colored "break"). This is why they introduced colored artifacts btw, because keeping them colorless resulted in either a very limited design space, or big problems across the meta (see skullclamp).
@caasIsirhC
Жыл бұрын
I think the thing that breaks the colour pie isn't usually individual cards. It's a mixture of how splashable it is (its ubiquity) and its power relative to the home colour as Crim argues. For instance, blue is the counterspell colour because the pool of cards runs deep and decks running it are unlikely to play Tibalt's Trickery, Lapse of Certainty, or Imp's Mischief when even second tier blue counters outclass them. It's difficult to see these as breaking the colour pie as the effects are uncommon enough and don't match up to the home colour's options. Beast Within, on the other hand, is especially notable by any metric of colour pie break. It's literally the same in terms of power as Generous Gift, it's better than Chaos Warp in the majority of cases, and more versatile than the blue counterparts (Resculpt and Ravenform) and on top of versatility, it's faster than the black counterpart (Feed the Swarm). Green doesn't destroy creatures and yet Beast Within will appear in even 5 colour decks because its so splashable. In terms of breaking the colour pie it's tough to match up to it... unless you look at Smothering Tithe. Ultimately, the colour pie isn't broken by cards that give colours token access to an effect unless that effect is so good it eclipse's the home colour's options. Not to say that those cards like red counterspells aren't breaks from the colour pie but they don't break it. On another note. I am also not sure it's fair to lay the blame at commander's feet for colour breaks. Modern Horizons 1 & 2 are Modern sets. DRC and Murktide may be a better Delver and Goyf respectively but they were designed with Modern explicitly in mind. Maybe the reason Feed the Swarm seems particularly egregious is because of Black's access to tutors but really, one Feed the Swarm in 100 cards is not a fix for commander players. Yes it's infinitely better than no enchantment removal in the games you see it but of those 1 in 5 games (going on having drawn roughly 20 cards from the deck), it only matters more than any other creature removal if there actually is a problem enchantment at the same time as it is in your hand. So, I don't think these cards are designed for commander unless they are flooding the colour with breaks of the same kind. Token colour breaks suit a design for 60 card formats with 4 ofs far more than 100 card singleton. Designing for commander may be detrimental in other ways but I don't believe that colour pie breaks are one of those ways. EDIT I am realising this is a mostly critical comment and hope that it comes across as being invested in the game and loving the show and engaging with the opinions therein.
@Sean-gx1sf
Жыл бұрын
Almost spit out my coffee when I saw Tomer's editor POV comments; wish he was here for this one
@imaginarymatter
Жыл бұрын
That was a very colorful conversation. Do you know what else would be a colorful conversation? A charm/command/modal spell tier list.
@sethchapman1425
Жыл бұрын
My real problem is that more and more cards are staples for commander. Causing decks to look very similar. And also like need it or you won't compete. Just my feelings.
@thatepicwizardguy
Жыл бұрын
homogenous design. it's awful for a game long term.
@DarthChocolate15
Жыл бұрын
Tomer's editing game on point. Wish he could have brought those into the actual discussion.
@empurress77
Жыл бұрын
I really like the idea of restricting Black to only being able to destroy/remove/exile opponents enchantments. I never realized the connection for Black wanting to remove their own enchantments. Full disclosure: I've splashed in a few White lands just for a Disenchant or two for so long in never had an issue with Disenchanting my own stuff. 🧐
@williamdrum9899
Жыл бұрын
I like the flavor of Black removing its own enchantments. Like a deal with the devil except you find a loophole in the contract
@efnfen
Жыл бұрын
Crim made a lot of good points here. If Iona is banned because it can shut a mono color deck out of the game then Feed the Swarm is a good thing because one enchantment could previously shut a mono black deck out of the game. Color pie breaks are good sometimes and especially when they're done not too often.
@markkarlo4869
Жыл бұрын
I think the best color pie breaks are the ones that you need to include in a mono-colored deck but can easily ignore on multi-colored...
@markkarlo4869
Жыл бұрын
and i think since we have a set for commander, these color pie breaks need to be only printed there so as it does not affect most of the 60-card formats...
@bye1551
Жыл бұрын
Fully agree with this. I'm literally never playing feed the swarm in orzhov or golgari. Never. It's terrible as soon as you have those other options. That's what makes it fine imo, something like resculpt though? I'd play that over red artifact removal in an izzet deck, or at least alongside it, even though red is the artifact removal colour. Beast within goes in all 5 colour decks even though you have white and black, the "removal colours".
@MakeVarahHappen
Жыл бұрын
The best color pie break is a banned color pie break.
@jsato4921
Жыл бұрын
Kamigawa coming out right after Innestrad really was enough for Farewell to make everyone forget about Vanquish the Horde
@Morgformer
9 ай бұрын
What's wrong with vanquish the horde? Board clears are kinda White's thing
@SantaCatcher9000
Жыл бұрын
I think we are seeing an evolution of the pie, from colors having a binary (things they can do and things they can’t do) to a three part pie where colors have their strengths, they have things they can do less efficiently, and things they still can’t do
@MarvelOfRain
Жыл бұрын
Hot take: This disscussion is pointless. Colorless can and always could do everything in the color pie. People just aren't brewing enough. The only only thing the "color pie break" cards do is introduce these effects to the masses. For example I remember back in the day around the time first Commander Precons came out Sultai didn't have nearly as much board wipes as anything in White, but you still had enough to fill a deck - Damnation. Oblivion Stone, Life's Finale, Decree of Pain etc. As far as black enchatment removal - I had a Gonti deck and yes there wasn't much spot removat for enchantments couple of years ago, but with Karn, Ugin, All is Dust, Meteor Golem, Oblivion Stone, Perilous Vault - well I never lost to an enchantment. If anything I think the deck was actually better at dealing with enchantments and artifacts since many of my other decks didn´t have board wipes that could hit them and it wasn't an angle I would evaluate for them. For card draw it was limited but you always had enough even in green and white with Skullclamp, Mentor of the Meek, Soul of Harvest, Staff of Nin etc. It wasn't great but neither are most of the new cards no matter what the internet says. The only real argument left is efficiency - as long as the new cards aren't making these effects too efficient for the color we are more then fine. Esper Sentinel, Beast Within or the Great Henge. Those are only ones that could be considered a problem.
@juanjogomez4187
Жыл бұрын
Probably a bad take, but to me the only color pie break needed rn is better interaction for black. As far as i know the black way of dealing with non-creature spells was discard but cards like thoughtseize are bad at 4 player tables, maybe that would change if wotc printed discard spells that state "all opponents reveal their hands and you pick and discard one of those spells" instead of just targeting one opponent? I dunno, in regards to everything else to me it always felt like every color already had a way of doing everything without compromising its identity within the color pie.
@fidde208
Жыл бұрын
But isn't white secondary on Counterspells. Every effect should exist in maybe 2 or 3 colours to a lesser degree. But not in all 5 unless it's super necessary to the game.
@wchenful
Жыл бұрын
Colour-shifted Beast Withins: Feed the Swarm 2.0: 2B [Instant] Target permanent's controller sacrifices it. You lose 5 life. Blue actually already has many of these: Regress, Consign to Dream, Resounding Wave (removes any permanent via bounce rather than destroying - which is weaker but Blue also has much cheaper versions of the same effect)
@VivBrodock
Жыл бұрын
black is actually supposed to be able to do everything except deal with artefacts. that's it's color identity it does what the other colors do at the cost of life (both your own life and the life of your creatures) Also, as someone who owns 6 mono-black decks why would I care about having enchantment removal I'm already playing oblivion stone and Nev's disk to answer enchantments and artifacts in my black control decks. also, black does have a counterspell it's 1B lose 3 life counter target creature spell. it's basically another doomblade but it prevents ETBs also, y'all don't understand veil of summer it's factually a counterspell, it's used in legacy for exactly 3 things 1) countering thoughtsieze 2) countering Force of Will or Force of Negation 3) pushing a combo through. In no world is Veil used to protect against a combo. I actually think a colorshifted Planar Cleansing would be very interesting. Farewell already is better then it so it's not like white is losing to black by doing this, and it would be a cool call back to wrath of god colorshifted into damnation because planar cleansing is the successor to Wrath of God
@MTGGoldfish
Жыл бұрын
If black is supposed to deal with enchantments why couldn't it deal with enchantments until the last three-ish years?
@VivBrodock
Жыл бұрын
@@MTGGoldfish perhaps I worded what I said poorly The one thing I think black should never be able to do is target non-creature artifacts. Black is allowed to color break in every other sense because it is the Faustian color. Temporal Extortion, Yawgmoth's Will, Bolas' Citadel, Darkness, Bubbling Muck, Sinkhole etc. Black's entire history is one of breaking the color pie. The only reason this specific break has shown up in the last three years is because they pushed commander, but I think it's excusable because I don't think it does the one thing black shouldn't be be able to do.
@SuenteusPi
Жыл бұрын
Seth really needs to learn the difference between a "color pie break" and a "color pie change". It's not a break that black can destroy opponent's enchantments now!
@danieldelaney1377
Жыл бұрын
It is tho
@wesleywyndam-pryce5305
Жыл бұрын
@@danieldelaney1377 wether or not it is remains up to the somewhat arbitrary decisions of the makers of the game.
@draftmagicagain1000
Ай бұрын
It is a break. It’s the poster child for a break.
@draftmagicagain1000
Ай бұрын
A color pie change occurred in the early 2000’s when black lost Rituals and Red gained Rituals.
@TehHellequin
Жыл бұрын
I think starting each podcast with a 'definitions/priorities' section would be helpful. Currently it's very easy for the conversation to wander or become circular as we don't even have an idea of what they think a positive or negative outcome looks like etc.
@TehHellequin
Жыл бұрын
What is 'a red card' and what does that mean? Does it matter? Is that important to you? Why? Sidenote: Do we care about holding them to their own standards? People fighting against Resculpt need to compare to Generous Gift. Is not hitting enchantments and +1/+1 SO MUCH more than Gift that it's unplayable?
@Lucarioguild7
Жыл бұрын
That would require them not making baseless hot takes for once though lol, I love them but half the time it feels like this podcast is just rage bait because they talk out their ass so often.
@wesleywyndam-pryce5305
Жыл бұрын
cause its a casual conversation not a video essay
@efnfen
Жыл бұрын
@@Lucarioguild7Ironically this is one of the few times Crim wasn't talking out of his ass. Every other episode is eye rolling stream of conscious comments like, "Green has the best counterspells" from a previous episode
@hellmans_fury490
Жыл бұрын
How could y'all forget Wild Magic surge?! The best all permanent removal in red since Chaos Warp! Sure they are guaranteed to get another enchantment if they have another in the deck, but if you target a really powerful oppressive one, it's probably worth it. Especially if the one they get off the top is a lot cheaper than what they spent on the one you removed
@SpecialKail
Жыл бұрын
I think if they want to add pie breaks or bends to help out commander, print them in commander sets not in standard. Also the solution for the blue mana 3 drop catchall is it's at sorcery speed.
@ADVBCAT
Жыл бұрын
I feel like Feed The Swarm would have been your best argument, but you just talk about it like we only have the card and its release date to look at, and no other context or info. wotc was very clear that they were intentionally going to start making black #3 in enchantment removal, because it was weird that there was a permanent type that only had 2 colours that could remove it, and black seemed like a good fit because it only really destroys creatures and occasionally planeswalkers, which really every colour can do just by attacking them. So they did enchantment-destruction-via-sac cards in Theros Beyond Death, but it was still pretty bad, so they made it a bit stronger in Feed the Swarm. There's nothing about the story that says this was due to the desire of commander players.
@joshuadempsey5281
Жыл бұрын
PRO TIP: Theft effects are Blue-Removal. You're literally removing the threat from the enemy board, and youre also getting a card as well. And when the average cost is 5-6 mana, it's kinda nuts when you think about it: "remove" a high cost threat and "cast" your own copy of it for 1 card and 5-6 mana. #runmoretheft
@DylanHunter64
Жыл бұрын
Alright, calling Damnation a 'break' is actually breaking my brain right now. Is the word bend going to be mentioned at all???
@DylanHunter64
Жыл бұрын
An increase in efficiency is not a break. Not by a long shot.
@TeaHauss
Жыл бұрын
Green's counterspell could be 5 mana and you have to shuffle 3 of your lands back into the deck, actively countering their own ramp
@Beledroski
Жыл бұрын
What about a black counter spell that reads something along the lines of this: “As an additional cost to cast this spell, sacrifice a creature. Counter target spell with converted mana cost X or less. X is equal to the power of the creature you sacrificed to cast this spell.” In that scenario you’d only be able to counter big spells if you give up a big creature as well. Much less effective than a 2 mana counter anything and still somewhat flavorful for the black color pie. Just a thought 🤷🏽♂️
@MakeVarahHappen
Жыл бұрын
"Countering a big spell if you have a big creature" describes a green counterspell, not black.
@thatepicwizardguy
Жыл бұрын
@@MakeVarahHappen yup. should probably be pay X life or sacrifice X creatures and could call it soul negation or something
@MakeVarahHappen
Жыл бұрын
@@thatepicwizardguy Or you could just. Not.
@ms.sysbit5511
8 ай бұрын
Late as heck but this is an interesting idea playing into the sacrifice of black and its minor focus on big creatures.
@BloodMoonGo
Жыл бұрын
Once again, Crim is the voice of reason. Richard is freaking out again about spot removal he won't even play. Edit: suggested green counterspell 3GG Instant Tap an untapped created you control. It doesn't untap during your next untap step. Counter target creature spell with lesser mana value than the tapped creature's power. Not saying green needs the effect. But if it must exist, this is an acceptable way.
@IzzetTempo
Жыл бұрын
I just don't think it needs to exist at all. Green can already destroy any permanent and protect itself from nearly every wrath. Why does it need counter magic? Wouldn't giving it counter magic dilute what it is good at and shore up its already few weaknesses? If Wizards prints that card, two or three years later they'll print a better version, and then two or three years after that, all colors can do anything with little downside. And then, suddenly choosing a commander based on color isn't that big of a decision because they all do the same thing. And I believe making these decisions is part of the fun. Otherwise it's not a super interesting environment in which to build decks IMO.
@BloodMoonGo
Жыл бұрын
Remember, I don't believe green needs to have counterspells. However, in line with the theme of the video and the cast discussing how green would counterspell, I made an example to illustrate the most acceptable way for it to exist.
@discoviolenza1984
Жыл бұрын
Yes, and its probably bad for the longevity of the game that all the colors play the same now. I love commander but it shouldn't dictate the overall gameplay and color philosophy of the game. I also think restrictions in colors made deck building more interesting.
@IzzetTempo
Жыл бұрын
Same! Seems like a lot of people here want every color to do everything though. Sad people can't accept weaknesses when building decks / don't want to find creative ways around their colors shortcomings.
@AnEpicSquirrel
Жыл бұрын
If White card draw is "too good now", why do players naturally avoid using them when given access to other color combinations outside of Boros? The problem with the current White card draw is that it's inflexible with build design (the deck must be playing auras or creating weenies to consistently perform these draws) and the alternatives often requires piggybacking/reacting rather than being active (when an opponent does this, then you may draw 1 card per turn). In Aura, Weenie/Token decks you have so many creatures that let you draw from playing your deck normally, however outside of these archetypes you're really limited. Additionally a huge amount of these White card draw is also still done with creatures (Welcoming Vampire, Archivist of Oghma, Loran of the Third Path, etc) which are the most frequently to removed permanent type; and some genuinely just do not fit in a deck's theme (not all Mono-White or Boros decks focus on making tokens creatures or weenies for card draw, so Welcoming Vampire or Tocasia's Welcome might not fit). Therefore I think it's great to see more diverse options that focus on different permanent types and methods that do not require piggybacking as they allow for more obscure commanders and deck themes to focus on their gimmick. There is clearly more support for White card draw in the last year specifically, but the majority of available options are still inflexible to overall deck creativity as opposed to Blue/Black/Green where you can have flexible staples fit into in any theme (encouraging the rest of the deck not focusing on what allows card draw or ramp to be creative). White should obviously not be the best color at card draw (that's Blue's archetype), however as the game expands it needs some flexibility to keep itself from top-decking outside of Auras/weenies/low-CMC creatures. I personally believe Loran of the Third Path (which is still Hugs, but I like the politics) and Archivist of Oghma (still piggybacking, not very interesting or exciting) were the best two White card draw additions we have gotten in 2022 in terms of being usable in all themes where White is present. Cards like Wedding Ring and Smuggler's Share are neat, but are not considered staples for a reason. To be clear, I'm not advocating for White to gain a staple down the line like Smothering Tithe but for card draw (aka White Rhystic Study), but the existing set of options other than Loran of the Third Path and Archivist of Oghma are not flexible enough to be staple in decks containing White. The only cards I see from White in every deck containing the color are Teferi's Protection and Boardwipe/Removal spells which is great for White's identity, but highlights how card draw is not "too good" in White. The dangerous line that should be avoided in what we see in Green with ramp; namely that if you aren't running the staple ramp spells (Cultivate, Rampant Growth, Three Visits, etc) in a deck with Green then you're intentionally powering-down your deck. This leads any deck with Green, regardless of theme, to always run these Green staples ramp spells from Mono-Green decks to 5-color decks, which does reduce the creativity aspect when Green is in your deck (5-10% of your deck should be the same specific Green ramp spells for every deck). Staples in each color are important but risk homogenizing decks outside of their commander's gimmick. You can tell White lacks true value for card draw when you pair White in any combination with Blue/Black/Green and you likely wouldn't include the majority of White's card draw options (outside of Selesnya weenies). EX: Why use Archivist of Oghma or Smuggler's Share in Orzhov if you have Black Market Connections, Phyrexian Arena, Bolas Citadel, etc? Boros is the only combination the desperate enough to fully rely on White for card draw since Red is so poor at doing so itself outside of impulse draw and wheeling, which again isn't always going to be desirable for every Boros deck.
@NewSchoolPOKERstrat
Жыл бұрын
You are playing, in some sense, a fake format w arbitrary and ethereal “rules” and you have decided to make it about creatures but specifically non stax creatures and making it taboo to destroy lands then you are complaining that green is too good??? You see? You are making green too good.
@RisottoNero-z1w
Жыл бұрын
Green has had a second pie hidden in the oven for a while now....
@RyanEglitis
Жыл бұрын
The whole "black can't kill enchantments" thing always seemed dumb to me. Why would you make a card type that one or more colors just have 0 answers to once it's in play? Fine, restrict it to a bad rate, but why prevent that interaction entirely? imo, more colors should get access to counterspells as well - it's quite silly how few off color counterspells we have. Of course, don't go about it the way they did with the new white 'remand', where it doesn''t even have to counter the spell 🙄. We don't need _more_ powerful counters in other colors - weaker counters would be just fine.
@ryanc3201
Жыл бұрын
How did they all miss that counterspells are literally in white's slice of the color pie? White is SECOND for counterspells (in the sense that counters aren't in any other color, even if it is technically tertiary for white), but Wizards doesn't print them because people don't like playing against counterspells."
@lilymelodie7128
Жыл бұрын
Color break is an issue if having more color in your deack has a cost. in 60 card format its still the case even though theres reaolly less drawback than there use too. In commander being more color is essentually boid of drawback. if you don't have drawbacks being more color becomes bether in everyway. making individual color more strong make it so 5 color stuff isnt the only way to enjoy commander. I'd even argue that in 60 card format making individual color stronger while keeping their flavor creates greater diversity because everythings tends to include more and more color.
@bodaciouschad
Жыл бұрын
Every color needs an answer for every type of card because WOTC keeps printing hosers for every strategy in the command zone. Whats a monoblack reanimator deck supposed to do about a rest in peace before we had feed the swarm and debt to the kami/ phirika's libation? Exactly. Black still can't do crap about artifacts so expect mono black artifact removal. Black will remain the color of hand interaction, blue will remain the color of stack interaction, green will remain the color of land ramp, red will remain the color of land hate and damage spells, colorless will continue to be the lack of a color of exiling and artifacts and white will continue to get to do a little of everything while retaining it's identity as the color of rules setting.
@fidde208
Жыл бұрын
I agree Phyrexian Tribute is too bad to play as black artifact removal, but it's not too expensive. Gate to Phyrexia though, I'd play it in a monoblack deck if it wasn't for the price. It's only two mana, repeatable artifact removal and you only sacrifice one creature.
@danielscully449
Жыл бұрын
"These are all just worse beast within". True, but that doesn't justify further breaks imo. Just because there are worse culprits doesn't mean everything below is fair game. It's this train of thought that leads to worse power creep and breaks
@Grimjr7
Жыл бұрын
I think color pie breaks are good in the sense that there shouldn't be a situation in which one deck loses a game because it can't get around something because it's colors have no way of doing it. I had a dimir deck and I lost to an azarius deck all because I couldn't destroy one artifact. My entire deck was basically locked until I could get rid of one artifact and I didn't have any way in my deck to do it because at the time there was no way of getting rid of artifacts in blue or black. I had to rely on artifacts to remove artifacts which was way too costly and slow. I eventually dismantled the deck because it was such a bad experience and I had no effective solutions.😢
@thatoneguy4783
Жыл бұрын
Every color should have counters. Just like every color should have grave hate options and removal. We don't need many, but it seems like a broken system if only blue can have answers to combo and storm. I've had too many games where a combo is started and the game just ends because no one has a counter to even interact with it.
@oORoOFLOo
Жыл бұрын
"blue has still worse creatures than green, besides murktide" enter ledger shreder, delver, snapcaster
@oneguy637
Жыл бұрын
With all but Snapcaster being color pie violations too
@deifiedtitan
Жыл бұрын
“Pongify is blue’s thing.” Pongify/Rapid Hybridizaton effects are confirmed breaks by MaRo. I think the main thing that gets missed in this discussion is that even if you do get a break, usually you don’t have enough similar spells in that colour to justify running it as though it was a gameplan. “Should green have all this direct removal?” It has one spell, all the rest is conditional. If you aren’t playing with (nonland) tutors then it’s going to come up once every dozen games for that deck. Also the fact that it’s an eternal format. What the pie was isn’t how it is today. How it is today isn’t what it’ll be ten years from now. Another thing said by MaRo; Eternal is where all your mistakes live forever. Gives you a very warped perspective of what the colour pie is now if you’re looking at it through the commander lens
@Sup4ast4r
Жыл бұрын
I love that black can deal with enchantments. I think it's a design mistake for enchantments to randomly be the hardest permanent type to kill.
@AndersGenaamd
7 ай бұрын
No, a enchantment is a curse. And a curse is something permanent or really hard to get rid off. Otherwise it's not really a curse
@masonfoster151
Жыл бұрын
The real issue is that the colors, in EDH, have almost always had answers in their reach. Colorless provides a LOT. My mono black deck ran ugin, karn, and ulamog x2. I could remove any type of permanent. Does white need draw? Add skullclamp and mindstone, among many other one sided draw artifacts. There was no real reason to blend the pie, other than "bc i want it."
@Lucarioguild7
Жыл бұрын
The reason is that's how the format was for years and it just made some colors significantly worse than others, and since EDH is the primary format they have to actually factor in balancing the colors a bit more.
@wesleywyndam-pryce5305
Жыл бұрын
"because I want it" is also the reasoning behind the color pie existing
@wesleywyndam-pryce5305
Жыл бұрын
@@Lucarioguild7 if you're taking about balance in edh you need to sit in the corner and listen instead of participating in the discussion. attempting to balance the format is a complete waste of time that goes against the core fun of the format.
@Lucarioguild7
Жыл бұрын
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 I said balance the colors not the format as a whole there's no way right that ship lol
@gutom3ow
Жыл бұрын
This was probably the worst podcast from the crew so far. They really should have done a little bit of research before this podcast, a lot of the question are already answered by the designers of magic.
@foosandbrews4680
Жыл бұрын
I feel like blasphemous act isn’t a color pie brake. I think it’s more broken by the format, but still on color flavor. Are most cards broken by the format a color pie brake?
Пікірлер: 776