If you liked Vincent's explanations, check out the last time he joined us for more of this: kzitem.info/news/bejne/2YCB4H-YqqqSY3Y FOR A LIMITED TIME: Get 10% OFF of GN Store Tools purchases, including toolkits, Modmats, and Solder Mats: store.gamersnexus.net/ Grab a GN Tear-Down Toolkit! store.gamersnexus.net/products/gamersnexus-tear-down-toolkit Buy a Project & Solder Mat for a high-quality heat resistant surface: store.gamersnexus.net/products/gn-project-soldering-mat Get a GN Large PC Building Modmat! store.gamersnexus.net/products/large-modmat-gn15-anniversary Or consider a Medium Modmat! store.gamersnexus.net/products/medium-modmat-v2 Vincent Agosta is available for hire. Find Vincent Agosta's law firm here: www.agostalaw.com/
@mightym
9 ай бұрын
Thanks for the legal overview, but given the low bar for a utility patent, isn't that philosophically restrictive for innovation in design and manufacturing efficiencies? Not needing to actually produce a product allows companies to mass patent theoretical designs without an intention to develop, e.g. amazon, preventing other companies from actually bringing those designs to market.
@dontsupportrats4089
9 ай бұрын
But UM, which🙂 RGB fan makes my computer have the most FPS??
@Lil_Lobo
9 ай бұрын
Could the fact they didn't Include Corsair help Phanteks and Thermaltake in their lawsuit?
@thisisashan
9 ай бұрын
My question is... which one performs the best? Because the massive expenses for the trial may not be worth it for the ones trying this who are underperforming :P
@frederickpallas7130
9 ай бұрын
GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE, do that ,company . And we are all in (pls do some standard in GNU Noctua) And this is obvious BS, every lawyer needs to talk 20 minutes to an engi,and thats done.OVER
@arthurcuesta6041
9 ай бұрын
Dude proceeds to hire an attorney for the most accurate view on current news about a fucking fan. Never change, Steve. We love you.
@GamersNexus
9 ай бұрын
hahaha. That's what makes the job fun!
@mateofantasma
9 ай бұрын
I was about to write the same thing. Well said!
@MrKobold22
9 ай бұрын
You could say we are a fan of that.
@CosmicCleric
9 ай бұрын
@@GamersNexus Steve, please, Mastodon.
@seniorzolo3433
9 ай бұрын
I got to the 2:48 mark and was going to type exactly this, but naturally found that someone else already had.
@zedvids
9 ай бұрын
I pulled over at a gas station, bought some snacks and a drink to watch this. Your pursuit for technology/gaming consumer journalism is unmatched and worth the watch.
@GamersNexus
9 ай бұрын
I actually really appreciate this kind of comment because it's so relatable. Have done similar for channels I like when they drop big videos. Thank you for the kind words! Enjoy the snacks!
@Legionnegaming
9 ай бұрын
Your*
@ImNotHere4750
9 ай бұрын
In 3 minutes?
@zedvids
9 ай бұрын
@@Legionnegaming auto correct 😔
@zedvids
9 ай бұрын
@@ImNotHere4750 no, i meant anything they report that's a topic of legal or consumer reporting is worth watching, not that i finished it in 3 min
@nasarius
9 ай бұрын
Ton of respect for you guys consulting actual experts when you're dealing with unfamiliar topics.
@anteshell
9 ай бұрын
Well, Steve's name is not Rick Harrison and doesn't work in a pawnshop. ;P
@jonronnquist
9 ай бұрын
GN is a perfect example of how investigative journalism is supposed to work. When a source either cannot or does not wish to be identified, their legitimacy and the impact of what they have to say rests entirely on public trust in the institution passing on their statements. For GN this trust is high, making it the ideal place to turn to for whistleblowers. Kudos to Steve and his team for creating this environment and giving us all a place we can turn to for facts in a world oversaturated with bullshit.
@davidjohn4835
8 ай бұрын
well said!
@SuryanIsaac
8 ай бұрын
+1 for this
@nian60
9 ай бұрын
What Lian Li has managed so far is make me aware that some of their competitors have better fan connections than Lian Li does. Good to know for future purchases.
@goldenhate6649
9 ай бұрын
Probably the reason for the lawsuit. Rather than make their stuff better, just get rid of the competition outright.
@ACID_MENTE
9 ай бұрын
i think its less about fan connections n more about ppl switchin over to other brands regardless cus LL has universally hated software
@DakkonDS
9 ай бұрын
Same goes with everything that company makes. It's all overpriced trash that steals from others all the damn time. I hope they lose hard and are slapped even harder in a countersuit. Stupid greedy bastards
@eduardoarancibia169
9 ай бұрын
Honestly, that was my first take on the subjetct
@Farren246
9 ай бұрын
What I've learned from researching cases for my last build in 2020, is that anything you can do, Phanteks either can do better, or will not do at all... Of course, before this video I wasn't looking to buy any fans, so I only knew of the existence of Lian Li's self-linking fans. Now I know that Phanteks also has a linking fan, I know it is better even without watching the video.
@azithoth6860
9 ай бұрын
Realistically, this means the chances of fan connections cohabitating is zero. This is going to end up the same place as LED software, or buttons on the back of controllers, or.. the list goes on. Yet another consumer friendly innovation lost to litigation. Maybe one day we'll see a manufacturer offer their tech as a licensed compatibility endorsement, that feels like a win for everyone. So we won't
@bm373
9 ай бұрын
Not worth it ✌️🇺🇸
@SkateClipsAndTips
9 ай бұрын
Unifans should be a standard with all fans
@floorgang420
9 ай бұрын
Windows may force a Windows 12 compatible RGB fans, lol, we might never know.
@crisnmaryfam7344
9 ай бұрын
Many manufacturers Do just this. The funny thing is, The "pogo pin" design, Used by Lian Li here, is one of these things, I have game Controllers / Charger bases for them that use this Exact power transfer/connection design.
@shadow7037932
9 ай бұрын
They easiest way to fix the RGB stuff would be on AMD/Intel stepping in and standardizing it at the chip set and chip set driver level.
@TheRoarer
9 ай бұрын
Man, Vincent does a great job explaining what is going on to your viewers. You really got yourself an excellent consultant.
@GamersNexus
9 ай бұрын
It's great that he's also not as close to this industry -- he comes in with excellent questions I wouldn't have thought of.
@Erteywie
9 ай бұрын
@@GamersNexus I would love to hear/read his questions he has for you. We never get to see the tables turned.
@vaffangool9196
9 ай бұрын
@@GamersNexus *I realise it's difficult* when all three involved parties are advertisers on your channel, but don't you think you should have established a bit of historical context here? Thermaltake have extensive prior form playing it fast and loose with other people's intellectual property, having famously ripped off case designs from Case Labs and Fractal Design, and having somewhat less famously produced inferior knockoffs of cooling solutions from Corsair, NZXT, EK, Bitspower, and Koolance.
@user-hm9is5ke9i
9 ай бұрын
The biggest takeaway I got from this is that I need to manufacture my own fans and sell them.
@lolzlolz102
9 ай бұрын
It is crazy to me that you can successfully defend yourself in court (ie you have not done anything wrong) but still can't claim legal fees from the prosecution.
@Duckhook12
9 ай бұрын
The idea is that if you are genuinely hurt you should be able to sue and collect damages against anyone no matter how powerful they are and not be afraid of retribution in the case of losing. The case of the old lady getting burned by coffee from McDonald's. She had a genuine argument and won, no matter the smear campaign ran against her, but it required her taking on a 200 billion dollar corporation that if she lost she would be in the hole for millions of dollars to McDonald's lawyers. We see it all the time as long as you have money you can get away with things. So do we also want these powerful people and corporation to punish us for daring to speak up.
@VitroVine
9 ай бұрын
@@Duckhook12they just do it the other way now, sue someone themselves and force the victim to rack up legal fees, not caring if they actually win or not
@Darkurge666
9 ай бұрын
@@Duckhook12The court should decide what costs are reasonable, and not accept costs because the defending side decided to hire an army of lawyers.
@discrep
9 ай бұрын
@@VitroVine Judges can dismiss frivolous lawsuits and award attorneys' fees. Like the lawyer in the video said, the bar is set high, but it's definitely clearable if the plaintiff is suing in bad faith. Case in point: Trump sued Hillary Clinton, James Comey and a dozen other defendants, in 2022, for conspiring to ruin his 2016 campaign by alleging that Russia helped him. The judge dismissed the suit because he didn't articulate any harm done to him, and couldn't because he won the actual election! The judge allowed all of the defendants to submit their legal fees and sanctioned Trump and his attorneys around $1 million.
@ocularcavity8412
9 ай бұрын
@@Duckhook12 That is true you don't want to have a Large Corp punishing someone for losing a law suit, but it is a pointless discussion to make in patent law because the Legal system is so BROKEN in this day and age that any Company Suing can punish you BEFORE THEY WIN, by stopping your production freezing your profit, and burying you in legal fees even if they are 100% in the wrong and if you don't have at least $100,000 to defend you are DONE, so most give up without a fight. The Fact there are Shell Companies that exist ONLY to Patent Troll and ARE PROFITTALBE proves that Patent law NEEDS an overhaul and unfortunately Refunding Legal Funds to the winner is THE LOWEST of concerns in this space
@biscuit715
9 ай бұрын
I enjoy how extra this is. Could have just said "lian li is suing" and left it at that, but you guys have such a knack for finding and presenting really interesting stuff in what most people wouldn't care about
@MyMomsADadNow
8 ай бұрын
I don't think it's that easy or simple. There is a lot of nuance, and the implications are large. The RGB fan market would suffer, and the consumers would pay more for products, should Lian Li win the suit (not that I'm picking sides). It's about having a free and fair market, more than anything.
@soupwizard
9 ай бұрын
5:53 Corsair: Yo dawg, we heard you liked computers and fans, so we put computers in your fans so you can computer while you fan.
@DarkReturns1
9 ай бұрын
A 45 min video this detailed, you even hired 2 attorneys, about a fan lawsuit is insane! Steve you are legendary, never change!
@Dowlphin
9 ай бұрын
It is also insane in a negative way, systemically, that businesses would fight over such a non-genius idea. This causes patent holders to harass the competition a little into making their stuff different enough just to dodge problems, but the imitators will always be at the ready, and this is even celebrated as competition, so why do patents even exist in the USA? 😏 So this is two very unimaginative parties where one suddenly had a semi-lame idea and the other is too dumb to have it themselves or didn't want to, but now that one business boldly dared to comm-connect adjacent fans directly, others are afraid they're gonna go bankrupt if they don't jump on the bandwagon. This is comedy-level society decay in action, and it is normalized, thus many people don't perceive the inherent cringe.
@16vSciroccoboi
9 ай бұрын
@@Dowlphinyour comment is cringe.
@michaelbuto305
9 ай бұрын
@@Dowlphin Because its in USA. Thats the reason why people still manifacture in China or other country because these patent stuff for these days mostly bs. Without talking in moral high ground, consumer careless about patent other than the product in the end.
@NGreedia
9 ай бұрын
Lian li price gouges for their uni fans. There needs to be competition and competitive pricing
@defeqel6537
9 ай бұрын
Competition can come in many forms though, Thermaltake is IMO clearly infringing here , while others have innovated (edit: actually, not so sure any more, their design allows for a totally different pin layout, etc.). I can come up with 3 external daisy chaining designs from the top of my head, that would not infringe, also a couple designs with internal wiring, though those might infringe on Phanteks' design
@Bayofthe91st
9 ай бұрын
And then there is Jonsbo with their ridiculously cheaper option, just search JONSBO ZG-120BR
@goldenhate6649
9 ай бұрын
@@defeqel6537 Was going to say. This whole lawsuit sounds like Lian being like "waaah I though of it first therefore its mine!" Rather than any real basis for complaint. I can't imagine their going to be allowed to say the idea of daisy chaining parts is somehow theirs and only theirs. If they do, I know who I ain't buying from ever again.
@triadwarfare
9 ай бұрын
@@goldenhate6649isn't this every lawsuit ever, where executives are crying "our R&D dept came up with it first so you should pay up or we'll sue you to oblivion". Look how great it turned up for Asetek. It did so well, Asetek licensees are getting bad quality control.
@mrniusi11
9 ай бұрын
Intellectual Property laws are bullshit. They should not exist in a free market society. Using the guns of government to protect an idea is retarded. Meanwhile in California you can steal actual physical products without penalty. Maybe I should drive over and steal $899 in Lian-Li fans.
@keithstandiford3761
9 ай бұрын
I worked for several years as an expert witness in an obscure technology. This was an incredibly good educational video. Great guest, really good questions. Fantastic job!
@JSLEnterprises
9 ай бұрын
Fun fact, Thermaltake had a 4x 3.5" hdd 'hot swap' case that fit in 3x5.25 bays, that had a similar connector used to connect (electrically) their fan to the front housing... and this was back in 2008.
@WilliamOwyong
9 ай бұрын
The fact that all of these fan connectors are not compatible with each other is anti-competitive in nature and does not keep the costs down for the consumer. Interconnecting fans is a nice evolution in fan tech, but I feel it needs to happen via ISO standards so manufacturers have to meet a minimum compatibility level.
@uclajd
9 ай бұрын
Why do you hate innovation? Please stay away from American technology companies.
@christopherjames9843
9 ай бұрын
Proprietary connectors isn't "innovation" dude. Innovation is when standards are adhered to.@@uclajd
@Jet-ij9zc
9 ай бұрын
@uclajd my guy both lian li and thermaltake are Taiwanese companies and Phanteks is Dutch. There isn't a single US company involved.
@hey01e5
9 ай бұрын
THAT would be ideal
@Agera177
9 ай бұрын
@@uclajd"American" you say 😂
@Paelmoon
9 ай бұрын
If Lian Li don't like this, I would ask them how they would like it done? Or are they arguing that no one but them can make fans that connect without cables? If so, that's insane.
@Elvewizzy.
9 ай бұрын
Correct. they felt the Patent is a daisy chain able LED fan and all different forms of it. The irony being that they only sued down, not up. (Corsair)
@JJFX-
9 ай бұрын
Asetek has entered the chat.
@benruss4130
9 ай бұрын
@@Elvewizzy. Thats because Corsair would have the resources to not only win, but also counter sue.
@boeubanks7507
9 ай бұрын
Well, Corsair's design and implementation is so different that there is no case. Also, it is a logical outgrowth of cabling fans together. There really is no argument here. Asetek really got a friendly judge and jury on their case. I doubt anyone realized how expansive that ruling would be. As they were talking about, you have to make lay people understand technical aspects outside of their area of expertise. Sure, if you had Louis Rossman on the jury, the technical aspect would not be an issue. Although you would likely lose the case because you let Louis Rossman on the jury. That would be tantamount to legal malpractice.
@benruss4130
9 ай бұрын
@@boeubanks7507 I dont know about the Corsair style, but as an engineer, Phanteks style is pretty diferent
@andersjjensen
9 ай бұрын
The case where the other party got their own patent is dangerous business. Getting the other parties patent invalidated as a mistakenly issued patent ("it only covers what ours already claimed") is very hard because "the patent office doesn't make mistakes", and getting it invalidated on the grounds that things in their claims are not patentable can backfire massively and invalidate your own patent.
@2xKTfc
9 ай бұрын
Indeed. "it is, in a sense, that simple", said no patent lawyer ever 😅
@tilburg8683
9 ай бұрын
I hope you're right
@wubbsy
9 ай бұрын
One can hope
@bdhale34
9 ай бұрын
The patent office didn't make a mistake in this case either. They were objectively correct in granting the patents. Corsair is the only fan that actually directly violates Lian Li's patent, same power placement and same joining mechanism, they are blatantly ripping off Lian Li's design but LL is too scared to actually go after the one company that actually IS violating the patent.
@goldenhate6649
9 ай бұрын
@@bdhale34 I think part of LL's calculation here is corsair has gotten a rep in some groups of being 'cheap' (I will never buy a corsair product again after mutliple failures, along with MSI). LL doesn't expect to compete with Corsair in the same way it will with the named companies, and they are banking on the Court being stupid.
@Freyja_Dom
9 ай бұрын
It is incredible that you actually hired an attorney for this, I admire this channel's dedication to accuracy and information. Keep up the good work! This was really interesting.
@zybch
9 ай бұрын
Thermaltake used a pogopin/pad system almost 15 years ago with their Level 10 case's side panel's power and fan's lighting functionality. Hard to see them losing with such a long per-existence. Even without a patent for this, its clearly pre-existing art and Lian Li needs to lose this frivolous lawsuit.
@MazeFrame
8 ай бұрын
Was going to mention the same. Way back when, I considered the Level 10 case because it had the side-intake fan without the cable-plugging hassle.
@mcod99
9 ай бұрын
Hats off to Steve and the team, really interesting video. Keep it coming!!
@Blafard666
9 ай бұрын
Thank you for proposing this kind of content and working so well to help us understand !
@Craftimonium
9 ай бұрын
Same I’m commenting to help for the algorithm
@MilkerMurphy
9 ай бұрын
This channel is awesome. Please never use forgettable clickbait titles. Video titles like this will make it possible to find this video even years from now.
@jmal
9 ай бұрын
As someone who studied business law in college, this lawsuit is quite interesting, both from a legal and a consumer standpoint. Thank you, Steve, for the deep dive!
@erikev
9 ай бұрын
As a design engineer, and patent holder, I would say you need to find a patent attorney that also is an engineer to talk to, and yes, you can easily find that. Getting a regular attorney is like getting a random guy on the street and talk to him. One essential point not brought up here is the prior art search. A new patent must include a search for prior art, and include this in the patent, and if necessary, explain why this new innovation is patentable and not violating existing patents. This is both to help the patent office decide whether to grant the patent or not. So the first question would be if these patents include the competitors prior patents and how they argue this idea is 1) Novel, 2) Non-Obvious, and 3) Useful over the existing art (patents). This should be an easy discussion, but there is no way to split the technical from the legal here. The technical *is* the legal. This appears to be completely missing unfortunately.
@uvHearthstone
9 ай бұрын
It would be smarter for these 3 brands to create and share a single standard to take on bigger competitors like Corsair
@dimples282
9 ай бұрын
Definitely, this would be a ripe candidate for rolling into OpenPleb.
@markdeckard7651
9 ай бұрын
You don't seem to understand how business works. Lian Li isn't obligated to let everyone else copy their homework for the sake of a SiNgLe sTaNdArD
@MrRyanfisher
9 ай бұрын
They won't. It's easier for strays to fight for scraps, than it is for them to take on the big dog.
@Otto45
9 ай бұрын
Dividing up profits for the better good of the consumers?! BLASPHEMY!!
@mjc0961
9 ай бұрын
@@markdeckard7651 LianLi's connector sucks anyway. They should use Thermaltake's magnetic system, it's by far the easiest to work with. Perhaps Thermaltake will let LianLi copy off their homework since LianLi got an F when they did it themselves.
@ZacharyHawkshaw
9 ай бұрын
Lian Li is definitely reaching, just seems like they're trying to stop as many smaller companies as they can from following the idea of multiple fans getting power from a single cable, but it's pretty amusing that they wouldn't even try to go after Corsair when their design is actually better than Lian Li's, because they know it would be a waste of time to go after a company that's larger than them. That's why I think they're just trying to reach for as much as they can while they still can, before the design eventually becomes a common accepted standard. I hope Lian Li loses, because we should be beyond the days of needing a million freaking fan and RGB cables in our cases and they shouldn't get to decide who gets to do it. When Volvo was the first to include a seat belt in their vehicles, they didn't block any other car companies from also using seat belts, because they valued safety of the customer over profit.
@nanoflower1
9 ай бұрын
Or they would wait until after (if) they win the lawsuit against Phanteks and Thermal Take. If they were to win both law suits I'm sure they would then go after Corsair. No need to attack the big company until you know you have a solid case with solid wins behind you.
@Shiny49GER
9 ай бұрын
They can go after Corsair if they win against smaller companies because the result of the legal procedure will give an indication for future cases. It's never smart to go against bigger competitors first, because most of the time they have an internal patent department and a big budget for legal procedures.
@cablefeed3738
9 ай бұрын
@@Shiny49GERYes, that means their case isn't strong enough to win against the larger more powerful legal team, which means it should just get thrown out now.
@ZacharyHawkshaw
9 ай бұрын
@@nanoflower1 True. Still feels like Lian Li is salty though, because Corsair's already done it better and I don't think they'll get that much of an edge over them (in my opinion) if they rely on software alone for control, because I prefer physical RGB controllers over software-based controllers. Still have my Corsair SP120s kicking after over 5 years with a physical controller.
@user-tk5dt7rp2f
9 ай бұрын
This is the cheapest way of going after all of them. They go against a smaller company, without the capital to hold up the case in court. This means they get a quicker verdict, while spending less money. If they win, then they can use the verdict to confidently go after the bigger companies. Kinda sucks because they are killing competition, but the competition is copying their innovation, which Lian Li had to spend 100s of thousands if not millions on R&D to create.
@sgtmonoxide
9 ай бұрын
Hello everyone at GN! My good friend Mike recently passed away and was a big fan (no pun intended) of the channel. He retained a lot of the info he got from your awesome videos and when we went out for our biweekly taco lunch he would give me the run down. His pc case, AIO and case fans are all based off of your tests. Thank you for all you do GN. Keep up the great work.
@GamersNexus
9 ай бұрын
Hi Edward. I'm so sorry to hear about your friend Mike. It's very kind of you to take the time to tell us about him. Thank you for sharing how he connected with our content and how you guys would share it. I hope you are doing OK in these circumstances.
@sgtmonoxide
9 ай бұрын
@@GamersNexusthank you very much.
@gsus3918
9 ай бұрын
VERY smart move to hire a professional in an area that you aren't perfect in. Thank you GN for doing your best for anything you come across. 10/10
@MiniDevilDF
9 ай бұрын
You guys actually hired a lawyer for commentary? These videos have gotten top tier quality, with awesome effort actually put in. Thanks for always doing a good job!
@Xerpocalypse_
9 ай бұрын
I get why Lian Li is doing this, but the fact they’ve changed their connector standard not once, but twice in a few years is hostile to consumers IMO. My friend wanted to add SL Infinity to his SL V2 Fans, but he would have needed to buy *another* $90 fan set+hub. Lian Li doesn’t include the hub-specific cables with single fans, even if the fans are compatible with his existing hub.
@matthewb1601
9 ай бұрын
Sounds like an Apple move.
@666Tomato666
9 ай бұрын
@@matthewb1601 they learned from the "best" (just not the best for the consumer)
@seanlacroix
9 ай бұрын
I would think that the fact that phanteks was given its own patent proves that it’s different enough from Lian Li’s fan. Otherwise would they even be given the patent? As for Thermaltake I have no idea how that will work out.
@666Tomato666
9 ай бұрын
@@seanlacroix "proves that it’s different enough from Lian Li’s fan." hahahahahahahah oh, wait, you're serious? let me laugh even harder HAHAHAHAHAHAHA USPO is rubber-stamping anything and everything submitted, "novelty" doesn't even exist in their lexicon.
@seanlacroix
9 ай бұрын
@@666Tomato666 they wouldn’t give you a patent if it infringed on another brands. Thats why the patent office does a search when you apply for a patent to make sure you’re not infringing on someone else’s.
@acourierofourhopesandaamer8303
9 ай бұрын
special report is the GN version of EMERGENCY MEETING
@GamersNexus
9 ай бұрын
So... which one is sus? Lian Li or Phanteks & Thermaltake?
@acourierofourhopesandaamer8303
9 ай бұрын
@@GamersNexus in the spirit of the game, ejection by public vote 😆
@Teraclips
9 ай бұрын
I love the professionalism of the channel, keep up the good work!
@ripleyhrgiger4669
9 ай бұрын
Your channel reminds me of those old educational videos from the 50's and 60's that were entertaining and informative. The visuals alongside the great narrative component make for an entertaining watch that just FLIES by so quickly. This didn't feel like a 45 minute show! I WANTED MORE BY THE END!
@whoevertf
8 ай бұрын
Without the propaganda :v
@Al3ksandrOrlov
9 ай бұрын
Ive said it before and ill say it again: The PC gaming/tech community is lucky to have a journalist lile yourselves, you have integrity, I just wish the rest of the world shared your ethics
@TheRealJaCrispy
9 ай бұрын
Thank you for all of your extensive coverage on this and pretty much everything else PC and gaming related. You guys are the truth. We appreciate you all.
@dickeyseamus
9 ай бұрын
Lian Li is reaching and trying to get what they can out of the competition.
@mrbigbrownbeaver
9 ай бұрын
As they should. They took the risk with a new design and it paid off.
@capablanc
9 ай бұрын
@@mrbigbrownbeaverConsumers cheering for corporate railroading. What a world
@u9Nails
9 ай бұрын
I think there is reason to defend your patent. It is your exclusive design and a competitive advantage that you created which makes an impact in the market. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a patent office to begin with.
@YDINO69
9 ай бұрын
Instantly dropped my other video to be here
@quintrapnell3605
9 ай бұрын
Same
@redbloodedamerican2346
9 ай бұрын
Lol same
@freighter1097
9 ай бұрын
Why? This one isn't going to leave.
@redbloodedamerican2346
9 ай бұрын
@@freighter1097 WHOOSH! Because this one is more interesting. It's not rocket science
@freighter1097
9 ай бұрын
@@redbloodedamerican2346 If you say so. I wouldn't leave one video I was watching for another. Granted I don't use any notifications so I don't get notified when a new video is released. I just see them when I load KZitem and click on subscriptions or in this case, it gets recommended.
@FlameMage2
9 ай бұрын
I'm looking forward to learning the resolution of this case. I myself own several Phanteks D30s so I felt Steve's pain watching him use those connectors. I'll say the Thermaltake and Lian Li look far more enjoyable to couple together.
@matthewb1601
9 ай бұрын
To think, Phanteks probably went the way they did specifically to avoid patent infringement.
@TroidHunter
9 ай бұрын
not gonna lie, I only realized that I owned the Lian Li fans mentioned in the video about halfway through, because they were so nice to use that I kinda forgot that they're RGB fans. RGB stuff is usually such a pile of nonsense to work with that I end up avoiding it even for client builds, but the unifans are great.
@jamesbyrd3740
9 ай бұрын
@@matthewb1601 they absolutely made that terrible design to avoid the patent. thermaltakes design seems by far the best, but they're more likely to lose. Sad, because these are 2 of the best pc hardware manufacturers being patent trolled by LL. And they're not even going after corsair, who seems to have actually copied them.
@dave24-73
9 ай бұрын
I think Lian li will lose based on the differences best they can hope for is out of court settlement in my opinion. Many patents don’t always give you the protection you think they do, in short some things can’t be patented. You see this all the time on things like the Dragons Den where people have a patent granted, but it’s so easy to get around it’s not worth anything. I think you’ll find this is the case here.
@bdhale34
9 ай бұрын
Corsair's fans are the only ones that objectively violate the patent. Ironic that they were too scared to go after the one company that actually was copying their design.
@seemlesslies
9 ай бұрын
I think one of the things that needed to be mention is you can get a patient granted for just about anything. The bar for getting a patient is extremely low.
@fridaycaliforniaa236
9 ай бұрын
@@seemlesslies That's what makes phones so expensive. I've read somewhere than 25 % of the whole price of a phone is just for patents =/
@JustAMindlessDrone
9 ай бұрын
Quality journalism as usual.
@mikeschneider9462
9 ай бұрын
Another case of if your product is really that good it'll stand out. But pulling these anti consumer law suits really makes me rethink my love of lian li.
@benjaminlynch9958
9 ай бұрын
I think Lian Li would argue that their product DID stand out right up until the point that their patents were violated. It’s not for nothing that they were first to market with this kind of product but also the first to receive patent protection. Imitation is the finest form of flattery after all…
@uclajd
9 ай бұрын
Yeah that's not how patents work bruh.
@mikeschneider9462
9 ай бұрын
@uclajd I didn't say that's how they work. I said if your product is that good it should stand out regardless of the copy cats. Let um make all the fans they want.
@Jet-ij9zc
9 ай бұрын
@uclajd considering the companies being sued also obtained a patent. The patent office seems to disagree with you
@592Johno
9 ай бұрын
@@benjaminlynch9958that's not how that works wtf
@Blink_____
9 ай бұрын
this is like Atari suing Nintendo for making a system that a game cartridge plugs into
@artiem5262
9 ай бұрын
Retired Silicon Valley patent attorney here -- THANK YOU! Thank you for a detailed presentation!
@ScarletKomi
9 ай бұрын
Every patent dispute I hear about makes me despise patents as a idiotic waste of everyone's time and resources
@evanwheeler7687
9 ай бұрын
Love this sort of industry coverage and really appreciate Vincent being brought on to discuss.
@bobisadrummer
9 ай бұрын
I haven't cared much for Lian Li ever since their daughter company Ssupd screwed over W360 (1/2 of the NCase M1 maker) by not paying him their agreed amount for his work on the Meshlicious design, so this kind of BS from them isn't surprising to me and the fact that they're not going after Corsair, just says to me they're hoping they can out spend Phanteks and Thermaltake in court to win.
@DerangedCoconut808
9 ай бұрын
it was only time...i figured this would happen when the unifan first came to market.
@Blafard666
9 ай бұрын
For real, it seemed that everybody copied their concept in a matter of months ...
@claxisthebesta
9 ай бұрын
Chinese company Sama doesn't even bother changing the name. they literally have an o11 copy an a daisy chain fan called 'uni fan'
@DerangedCoconut808
9 ай бұрын
@@claxisthebesta well thats given. i mean look at the thermal grizzlies intel socket hold down, that was swiftly copied within weeks.
@bltzcstrnx
9 ай бұрын
@@claxisthebestathey probably don't target the US market. So the patent didn't matter to them.
@chaoqi
9 ай бұрын
While Mr. Agosta did a great job of explaining the basics of the patent system, I just wanted to clarify some areas that I believe he misstated something or otherwise requires more explanation. First, a patent does not technically provide "exclusive protections for someone to manufacture or sell a specific product or system," which would be a positive right. Rather, a patent grants a negative right -- a right to exclude others from making, using, selling, or offering to sell the patented item within the United States. As a patent owner, you would need to proactively go after those you believe to be potential infringers. This brings up a second point, which is that a patent is territorial. Here, the lawsuit involves issued U.S. patents. The impact to consumers would only be felt within the United States, as it does not appear Lian Li applied for or were granted corresponding patents in other jurisdictions. As far as I know, manufacturing of the fans are all performed overseas, so there would not necessarily be any halt to manufacturing. Were defendants to lose, they would still be able to sell the potentially infringing products anywhere outside the United States. When Mr. Agosta speaks about the "scope" of the patent, I believe he is referring to a claim construction hearing, which is commonly known as a Markman hearing (named after a U.S. Supreme Court case, Markman v. Westview Instruments). A claim construction hearing determines the scope of the claim terms, which themselves depend on disclosures in the specification, the file history, or external evidence if needed. In most cases, claim terms are afforded their commonly accepted dictionary definitions, but patent drafters are their own lexicographers and are allowed to assign a definition to any term, common or not, they want. It will be interesting to see how each side approaches claim construction (i.e., if Lian Li will try to broaden claim construction to cover Phanteks' patent, etc.). In terms of infringement, I'm not sure I would say the two products need to be "almost exact," as there is still the doctrine of equivalents, but that's another conversation in itself. That being said, a patent litigation lawsuit can easily cost millions of dollars. Hopefully, this does not affect the breadth of products available to the consumer.
@Ozaryk
9 ай бұрын
To me, this comes off as a "Lian Li attempts to kill competition by preventing them from making fans that interconnect and have RGB". Each design is different and have different pros and cons from one another. Magnets too strong can cause problems with other components. Too weak and they will easily get knocked off. Fans that fall 4 feet can easily sustain significant damage. The solid slide hooks that go into grooves like Lian Li has, are sturdy, take a bit of effort to get in, especially considering TT's has nothing like that, and will hold. Hit one and it will likely hold, but could damage the fan housing. Another issue with Lian Li's is that it's plastic on plastic, which means it if isn't precisely made, then it could made an irritating sound, but if it were at that point, then the grooves wouldn't be good enough to support them vertically. As for Phanteks, those hooks are nice but add an extra point of potential failure, however, if they do fail, they should be cheaper to replace than an entire fan, and as seen in this video, when you unconnected two of them, they rotate in and out of being in a locked position. This, to me, makes them extremely convenient to connect outside of a PC, but not inside, because you likely won't have the room in a PC to do that. As for RGB placement and connector placement... Well, all of those have limited locations they can be placed. The difference would be the size of the RGB strip they use inside the fan housing... I think a good design could come with a groove on the exterior that connects into a slot that supplies it with power, this way, if the fan dies, you can keep the RGB strip, or if the RGB strip dies, you can replace it and not have to replace the fan. This wouldn't add another point of failure because they have to connect somewhere anyways. If I designed a fan, it might be somewhat close to what Phanteks did, or a combination of Phanteks and TT. I do not like Lian Li's design. Anyways...
@TheRogueWolf
9 ай бұрын
"We don't know the intricacies of this situation." A bunch of other KZitemrs: "So we'll just vomit up some conjecture." Gamers Nexus: "So we'll hire lawyers to educate us."
@Ironclad17
9 ай бұрын
42:00 I think this is a major issue. The only requirement for a patent to have validity seems to be if it was ever approved, and there's almost no scrutiny at the patent office.
@theepicduck6922
9 ай бұрын
Tends to be why patents are filed (at least recommended) early and quickly.
@sephondranzer
9 ай бұрын
Here’s hoping the good folks at Lian Li lose this case! 🤞🏼
@Roland_Deschain
9 ай бұрын
Why? If everybody infringes on patents, there would be no incentive for innovation.
@Serusshi
9 ай бұрын
@@Roland_DeschainCuriosity and desire for innovation drives innovation. Patents only work in fairytale land where humans aren't susceptible to corruption and greed. In our case, patents forces people to "innovate" out of necessity, not genuine desire to create something new. It's reinventing the wheel for zero reason.
@sndrc9
9 ай бұрын
@@Roland_Deschain This lawsuit is basically making daisy-chaining fans illegal. Imagine someone had a patent for all charger locations. You will have charging cables sticking out the top or all over the sides.
@kyberite
9 ай бұрын
companies that do stuff like this deserve to go under
@sephondranzer
9 ай бұрын
@@Roland_Deschain Because we really don’t need another Asetek situation. Nobody likes a rent-seeker dude.
@Asdayasman
9 ай бұрын
Absolutely disgusting that something that could have benefitted consumers as a standard has been patented instead and taken to court to fight over so consumers have LESS freedom. Congrats, Lian Li, you're never seeing a single cent of my money.
@B8con8tor
9 ай бұрын
I couldn't agree more, I just sold both my lian Li cases.
@rodross9625
9 ай бұрын
Don’t buy Lian Li, this will affect consumers due to lack of competition. Also after buying the Lian Li AIO after recommendation by GM, mine failed to to a blockage in the pump, Lian Li apparently offered an exchange for affected units, but as usual the web page to initiate the RMA is consistently 505 times out. I have not seen any mention of this on GM but admittedly I have not seen every vid.
@GoodGamer3000
9 ай бұрын
Not sure how I didn't see this coming. As soon as I started seeing all these fans of similar style come out, I immediately thought, "didn't Lian Li do this already?"
@cardboardpig
9 ай бұрын
Right? So many people getting their knickers in a knot over Lian Li defending their innovations from the usual me-too companies. Lian Li may have made a mistake with their patent, because it has allowed the me-too companies to rip off the idea fairly easily.
@goldenhate6649
9 ай бұрын
@@cardboardpig Counter point, this would give Lian Li a complete monopoly over this kind of fan, cutting out all other competition entirely. That would be like if a motherboard size (say micro mtx) was owned by a single company and you had to give warranties to even use it. Take this one step further. How is this change any different from basically every company in existence making borderline the exact same fans CURRENTLY. Yes blades are different, but to think something as simple as making a customizable length fan chain would be company specific is ridiculous. Like yes they are similar. But they are not the same product, they don't use the same internal components, don't use the same control modules, and don't use the same connectors. This is like Apple suing Samsung because they made a touchscreen phone copying what apple did first. This would be like suing the lego knockoffs because they were too similar to lego even though the rest of the specifications and manufacturing process are different. Now, if Lian Li can PROVE that the other two either reverse engineered or stole corporate secrets, then maybe they have some grounds. But this mostly sounds like the big company creating frivolous lawsuits to scare competitors into surrender. If they REALLY thought this was a true statement, they would have sued Corsair, as is pointed out really early in the video.
@FAINTEN17
9 ай бұрын
@@goldenhate6649your on the money! Greedy companies as always
@gezzca
9 ай бұрын
@@cardboardpig tbh thermaltake used the same pin style for the fan in the lvl 10 case from 15 years ago to connect the fan directly to the panel it looks like they just moved that into fans connecting that way as an obvious next move.
@tygerbyme
9 ай бұрын
As as customer this showed me the true face of Liam Li. I didnt buy anything for them but I dont think I will do it in the future either due to this lawsuit. I wish Liam Li losses this because they are poking smaller companies but dont go for bigger ones like Corsair.
@SVT_LIGHTNING
9 ай бұрын
Phanteks should honestly counter sue lian li for copying the t30’s in the pos Lian Li Galahad II Trinity Performance.
@zebobm
9 ай бұрын
Liam Li, the Irish cousin of Lian Li? 😅
@user-kf5qf4op1i
9 ай бұрын
That's cute. Any patent holding company can sue if they feel like their hard work is being stolen. You just showed us your real face. You don't even support the company.
@tygerbyme
9 ай бұрын
@@user-kf5qf4op1i I will be honest with you. In my country until recently the name of Liam Li wasnt even known. In my last build I used Corsair, so yes I never bought Liam Li products thus never supporting then. Ive never said they shouldnt sue but rather how they made the sue look like and what is the sue about. For me it seems Liam Li tries to profit from smaller companies and at the same time trying to eliminate some competition from the market if possible, which is anti-consumer. So yeah keep up supporting them. Ive already made my point.
@6r3ys0n
9 ай бұрын
All legal matters aside, the Phanteks look much nicer and from my experience perform much better with far better static pressure. Nothing wrong with taking a design and making it superior to benefit consumers. I get a 6 degree celcius difference with Phanteks D30's with my Gigabyte Gaming OC 4090 in a Hyte Y40. (all 120mm, 3 reverse blade intake 3 120mm exhaust, can't fit a rear exhaust due to fan thickness and radiator length) compared to Lian Li V2 unis (4 120mm exhaust, 3 140mm intake) The Phanteks fans are quite literally twice as thick as the Uni and infinity fans. And they look far better with smoother RGB lighting. Using a 360mm aio. They also dunked on the Lian Li Uni Infinity fans (9 in total, Lian Li 011 dynamic evo) vs 9 phanteks d30s. (all 120mm in this case.)
@GinkoYoki234
9 ай бұрын
This is why I love GN! This is, by far, one of the most educational videos I've ever watched. Steve and Vincent both took complex topics and made it understandable for us lay people. The fact that I just watched an almost 45-minute video... and it felt like about 15 minutes... wow! Another well-done video.
@theLTrain700E
9 ай бұрын
I came to KZitem to figure out which RGB lights i needed to hook up to ICUE, and I still don't have answers
@angrybutters
9 ай бұрын
Great video! Don't ever change! Informative, was engaged throughout the video and loved listening to Vincent explain everything in detail. Great work everyone at GN.
@DelticEngine
9 ай бұрын
What is needed is a royalty-free, open standard under one of the licenses used by the FOSS community. Then there will be a level playing field, like there is when conventional (wired) fans are used.
@Thunderstryk
9 ай бұрын
Yeah but companies who spend money innovating don’t always want to just “give it away” . They want to make profit off it.
@Rhinopkc
9 ай бұрын
Would it be as clear as the USB “standard “😂
@DelticEngine
9 ай бұрын
@@Thunderstryk They make profit by selling the product, just like they do with conventional fans and a lot more fans if the system became a norm which would be far more likely with an open standard. The FOSS community can still make money if they want to by selling support for their product(s). Open hardware is growing as well. Genuine open standards benefit everyone.
@alexatkin
9 ай бұрын
@@DelticEngine Not if they make more profit by forcing you to buy their specific overpriced implementation. They don't want you to have freedom to choose their competitors.
@DelticEngine
9 ай бұрын
@@alexatkin To use your own argument, it can also be said that they are forcing me to use someone else's solution - such as conventional fans, in which case they lose again so they actually make a lot less profit.. In the long term, no one will care and this nonsense will be just a complete waste of time, money and resources. One only has to look at how many other ideas have died because of such greed, even if the idea and solution was actually quite good.
@justinwilliams4380
9 ай бұрын
Thermaltake could argue that the patent is not valid anymore, thermaltakes product is the obvious next step in the design process its clearly superior. Thats probably why they didnt even bother filing for a patent
@defeqel6537
9 ай бұрын
If the next step builds on the previous, then you still need to license the previous. I'd say Thermaltake is the most in danger here
@ElNeroDiablo
9 ай бұрын
@@defeqel6537 In that case, should LianLi have paid for a license to Apple to use Pogo Pins & Magnets in a connector in the same manner as the Apple MagSafe 1 & MagSafe 2 connectors, as LianLi's patent is an obvious "next step" (Power + Data) from what Apple did (Power)?
@bosstowndynamics5488
9 ай бұрын
@@ElNeroDiablo Apple's MagSafe patents are much more limited in scope than just transmitting power with pogo pins, otherwise Microsoft would be infringing with the Surface Connect standard on their devices and Apple would be passing up an opportunity for a juicy patent suit.
@jpmoney384
9 ай бұрын
Yet 40+ years later Intel still licenses the X86 architecture to AMD who in turn license X86-64 to Intel. AMD’s leap into 64 bit architecture doesn’t negate Intel’s X86 IP and just because Intel controls X86 doesn’t mean they’re entitled to get AMD’s X86-64 IP for free.
@defeqel6537
9 ай бұрын
@@ElNeroDiablo Apple wasn't the first with Pogo Pins either AFAIK, and Lian-Li doesn't seem to use magnets here. Whether Thermaltake should is more in contention possibly
@alleriodrone
9 ай бұрын
I actually worked on something that was trying to go around a patented system and something I learned was the most minor changes make a huge difference. I think all 3 products are unique enough that they should not infringe on the hardware part of the patent. Now there might still be problems but I'm not sure what they would be
@randomusermaximuss
8 ай бұрын
Not an expert, but that's my read. The ways they connect seem to be substantially different. Also heard rumor of various chaining before the creation of the products involved. Suspect this is a mistake because once the limits of the patient are established it'll hinder future litigation.
@JohnHoggard_aka_DaddyHoggy
9 ай бұрын
Love how the lawyer delivered the claim that the US patent office looks for prior art when there are numerous occasions where this is clearly not the case, with a completely straight face.
@MrThebigcheese123
9 ай бұрын
If only LTT was this thorough.. Great job guys!
@_BangDroid_
9 ай бұрын
@@kamran2035 Exactly. Quantity over quality
@BM-wf9uf
9 ай бұрын
Hopefully Lian Li loses. I don't want to see creativity monopolized.
@freighter1097
9 ай бұрын
What creativity? Their design got copied pretty clearly. Who else was making linkable fans like this before them?
@BM-wf9uf
9 ай бұрын
@@freighter1097 It's likely most companies making fans had some kind of research like that going on. None of these companies had a problem with fans being virtually identical for the last 20 years...
@tomshepherd6375
9 ай бұрын
This would explain why Lian li has yet to make a 140mm uni infinity reverse fan while the other two have them already
@kopzz
9 ай бұрын
Yeah I already dislike them for that (no plan for 140mm reverse when they have o11d evo xl) and now this? I hope LL lose this since it would overall be better for the industry especially for Phanteks one where it is way more different than LL.
@tomshepherd6375
9 ай бұрын
@@kopzz That's what i have been saying to them for while now. May just go with Phanteks swafans at least can clean them easier lol.
@colinwilson210
9 ай бұрын
What surprises me is the extensive level of detail in the patents - it can be much more vague than that, to give just the concept, not attachment methods, so something like "a method of attatching multiple devices using integrated connections / connectors to share power and / or data"
@andreasgiobel6355
9 ай бұрын
Good job Steve! Interesting topic. I worked for company with R&D and Product development. We have discussed several times when to have a an Engineering patent or block patent. As you release a patent for different regions of globe it involves huge costs, and you present your secrets in a document that the competition will try to reverse engineer. If it’s complicated R&D it might be worth it. Often it’s not worth it. This seems like an odd patent that can easily be reverse engineered by avoiding some key elements from Lian Lis patent. Edit1, As I look tru the patent It would probably be better to split it in two, as it seems to be a block patent and not and engineering patent. 1, that cover physical connection types 2, electrical connection types for fans and rgb.
@EkatariZeen
9 ай бұрын
Lian Li's lawsuit is absurd as it would be the equivalent of Apple having patented "Corners" instead of "Rounded corners" for their devices preventing any competition from creating devices with straight sides.
@DidYouReadEULA
9 ай бұрын
First rate, unbiased reporting as usual...thank you all!!
@pkopo1
9 ай бұрын
this channel never disappoints, absolutely insane how deep you dug into this. hands down the best tech channel on the platform, not even close.
@retrosean199
9 ай бұрын
Seems like the fact that there's two companies each with their own patent means this isn't going to work out for Lian-Li
@admrob
9 ай бұрын
Funny story (to me) - I took Patent Law in law school (couldn't take the Patent Bar as I do not have a scientific/engineering background). The final exam hypothetical, which I got an "A" on, was about the patent-ability of a recipe for cookies with one of the ingredients being flour. I spelled it "flower" throughout my otherwise very well written essays. Time crunch ftw. When I read my exam over after getting it back, I felt like a real dumb dumb.
@Kralasaurusx
9 ай бұрын
I can't help but feel a little bitter towards Lian Li for something so petty. It might be one thing if their solution was truly revolutionary and far better than anything else, but their system really isn't even that great in the first place, and now they're basically trying to stifle the industry to prevent anyone else from making it suck less, while they charge outrageous, monopolistic prices for mediocre products. I'll think twice the next time I consider buying from Lian Li.
@ydin9
9 ай бұрын
I think Lian Li is doing more harm to their reputation than they would lose out on the "patent" "being violated". Yes there is money involved in development of well functioning product, which it seems to be, and sales but treating this like they invented soda can lid and gonna get rich by is pretty insane when they essentially "invented" drilling a holes through the fans casing and putting wires through it instead of zip-tying cables on the outside. With extra steps and developing easy connectors of course. - Think about it this way, interlocking fans are living in a relatively small fan market that only exists around PC gaming and case building, which is a niche where the consumers are very much ready made build sellers or people building. I don't see a market outside of PC building where interlocking rgb fans would be in demand of as plain old black cable fans are cheaper, so they are alienating part of their market, people who remember things associated with their brand name and that comes to purchasing decisions. Count me in on that group, not that I spend a lot of money on parts annually but I'm probably gonna remember what not to get when I do.
@deadso
9 ай бұрын
I think the next obvious step to the old wired fans IS interlocking them, and thus it's not even patent worthy (ie. patents are supposed to be "non obvious"). The technique used can be patented of course, but all three use different techniques (with Phenteks being least similar), so I expect another loss there voor Lian Li. Patent fights are often seen as petty and money grabs, so yeah, to me this is a lose-lose situation for Lian Li.
@ydin9
9 ай бұрын
@@deadso outside of inducting the energy to the fans there is no advantage interlocking outside of aesthetics. It s not a next step because it is a convenience. Old wired fans will never stop existing while they are cheaper to make and have industrial scale applications because not engineer in the world would count an interlocking rgb fan as cost efficient in , say a PLC box. I'm not arguing their right to the patent, I'm saying the patent is stupid, based on form and one kind of connectivity. They are essentially trying to expand the reach of the patent in court to cover more than the original patent.
@aserta
9 ай бұрын
Lian Li is eating something and it's not gonna end up good for them. Pathetic, really, and the CEO should be ashamed for this kind of behavior from the company.
@disphoto
9 ай бұрын
I have acted as an expert witness in multiple patent cases. One of the first and most important steps is defining terms in the claims. Generally, each side will have definitions that will favor their contentions, and a judge may call in a "Master" (independent technical person) to help them decide on the definitions. The trick for the plaintiff is to try and make the definitions cover the other product without being so broad that their patent is then covered by the prior art. The 10,690,336 claim calls for the first and second connectors to electrically connect. If you put two Phantek fans next to each other, they don't electrically connect. They require Phantek's "jumper/connect" to connect them. I expect they will spend well over $100K in legal and expert fees fighting over what it means to "connect." Remember that the Judge is probably not technical nor is the jury. On the surface, Thermaltake's method seems much more problematic concerning the patent claims. From the validity of the patent point of view (a vastly bigger thing to research), I would be curious about the limitation of the fans being illuminated. Has connecting two fans together in a similar way been done before without illuminated fans? If so, it would seem to be obvious to one skilled in the art that had been done before without LEDs would be obvious to do with LED Fans.
@MrKryss2k
9 ай бұрын
From my basic understanding/view: I think Phanteks avoided infringing because they used an external connector and the fan body connectors are on the same side. But Thermaltake might have problems arguing they didn't infringe the patent. 🤷♂️
@ashberto6041
9 ай бұрын
They are all far different from each other, the fact that none are cross compatable is a clear indicator of this. All Lian Li are doing is making themselves look bad to the PC market as they will only stifle innovation in the market. Kind of an own goal.
@Tugela60
9 ай бұрын
Cross compatibility or being better is not a criteria when it comes to infringement. What matters is if the claims are infringed.
@narius_jaden215
9 ай бұрын
@@Tugela60 While that might be true, it doesn't really change how bad Lian Li looks here. Like I couldn't care less if they win their case, because I want this tech to spread, not be stifled by legalese.
@Tugela60
9 ай бұрын
@narius_jaden215 They have a patent, they are entitled to protect it, and entitled to expect that no one will steal it from them.
@ashberto6041
9 ай бұрын
@@Tugela60 Sure they have a patent but that does not mean you cannot interconnect two fans and arguably the new systems are actually better.
@Tugela60
9 ай бұрын
@ashberto6041 Better is irrelevant, if they are using a system that falls under the description it is still infringement. You can invent an improvement, and patent that, but it will still fall under the earlier patent. In that situation, the original patent holder can't use your improvement without a license, but you cannot use it either unless you get a license from them. And if they don't give that license then you are infringing if you use your own invention. They, on the other hand, can still use their patent in products, provided those products do not use what is in your patent. In other words, they have freedom to operate and you do not, unless you can convince them to license the IP to you.
@mebibyte9347
9 ай бұрын
Steve and the team literally give an inside look, anonymous-source-level-report, into the computer fan industry. Mind-blowingly fascinating reporting and I didn't even know these companies made these products 😅 I want some easy to install fans now
@Vladimir_Kv
9 ай бұрын
The problem with US patent law is that it is outdated. Currently, 20 years are grossly in excess for a regular consumer product life cycle. Even cars have around 10 years projected lifetime and it is shrinking fast, with many car brands releasing a new car with new features every 3, 2, even 1 year. Nothing in the consumer market is designed to stay relevant for 20 years.
@nathanhood2415
9 ай бұрын
Design patents are VERY specific in when you are allowed to call upon infringement. If there is no utility patent and it is just a design patent behind Lian Li's fans I can't see them winning against phanteks which has a visible and substantially different way of connecting.
@jikemenkins7098
9 ай бұрын
Steve, your content is so solid. I can not express how much I appreciate the professionalism and thoroughness that you maintain. Please don't ever stray from these standards.
@bet-poppyt8369
9 ай бұрын
I personally am happy to see more manufacturers producing a "wireless" daisy chain fan. I've had Lian Li SL and currently AL fans and have had about 75% fail from bearing noise problems (6-8months). I'd love to try a better quality wireless fans in my PC. Lian Li was the first but they can't expect to stop companies from running with the idea.
@mjc0961
9 ай бұрын
Based on the 4 types Steve showed in the video, by far I'd want to try the Thermaltake magnetic solution if I used any of them. Lian Li may have been "FIRST!" like so many obnoxious internet commenters, but they obviously were not the best. Realistically though, I'll just stick with cheaper black fans with no RGB and standard as can be 4-pin PWM connectors.
@christopherjames9843
9 ай бұрын
This.....@@mjc0961
@GENKI_INU
9 ай бұрын
Bearing noise isn't really a "failure" per se, since you can just add some lube to the fans and the noise will go away. Worse case, you can also clean out the bearing. The problem is a lot of newer fans just aren't made with maintenance in mind. A lot of older fans will have rubber gaskets on the back of fans where you can add a few drops to relube the fan. And some fans, you can just pull out the impeller without damaging anything. But these days, especially with more proprietary bearings, the backs are totally sealed.
@drizztcat1
9 ай бұрын
I understand companies have to protect their patents (just simply based on the nature of the laws), but there's a good chance that none of this will be good for consumers. Best case scenario, the suit goes nowhere and the companies spend millions on attorneys' fees that they pass on to us. At worse, Lian Li wins and every build moving forward gets a little more expensive and less innovative.
@stanwbaker
9 ай бұрын
Licensing is a thing, despite the Americans.
@mjc0961
9 ай бұрын
Or I'll just keep buying fans from companies who didn't participate in this nonsense and just use standard 4-pin headers on their fans. Oh no, I have to route 3 cables instead of 1 like the old days. I think I'll live.
@-opus
9 ай бұрын
Not sure that Lian Li really wants to make things better for consumers, they like to overcomplicate everything
@ModrunOfficial
9 ай бұрын
why patent it at all in the first place i dont understand for anyone that doesnt actually care if anyone else uses the same technlogy
@Shiny49GER
9 ай бұрын
@@ModrunOfficial As a company you always want to patent things that distingish you from the competition and make people buy your product instead. For example, if you develop a new bearing for a fan, most customers won't care, but being able to connect mulitple fans with just one cable will.
@mz1929
9 ай бұрын
Lian Li: "Ladies and Gentleman of the Jury, Are these or are these NOT Fans that daisy chain together with power and RGB data delivery" Any rebuttal happens.... Lian Li: "Ladies and Gentleman of the Jury, Are these or are these NOT Fans that daisy chain together with power and RGB data delivery"
@rudresh10000
9 ай бұрын
Love the functional use of the Monitor Wall. Its not just a background decoration.
@robertbattle6179
9 ай бұрын
Lian li gonna lose this
@boeubanks7507
9 ай бұрын
So, I think Phantek has a good argument. Their fans are a materially different design than what is in LianLi's patent. Enough so that they were issued a separate patent. Thermaltake, on the other hand, may be in trouble. The only thing they really changed was the attachment method. They went from slotting together to magnetic attachment. If I was sitting on the jury, I would not consider that a material difference. Phantek's design is materially different in the fact that they moved the connectors and are using an external bridge. I think Thermaltake will settle, but I doubt Phantek will. Phantek has too good of argument. If Phantek does settle, it will be a small annoyance settlement to avoid the cost of a lawsuit with no admissions on the merits.
@gokublack8342
9 ай бұрын
Yeah Phanteks should be fine imo you can patent the specific designs but not the idea or "concept" of fan linking. Phanteks fan linking is clearly different and unique from Lian Li's design but yes Thermaltake it's a little tougher that'll be a more technical argument
@AeriFyrein
9 ай бұрын
This was pretty much my take, as well. The Thermaltake design seems almost exactly the same, and you can make an almost direct, 1:1 comparison to the patent documents. Phanteks design is completely different, both from a visual and practical standpoint: their fans can't chain together without those bridge connectors. Lian Li is in kind of a difficult position, though, because they essentially *HAVE* to file these lawsuits. Something I don't remember being brought up in the video is that a company *does* have to at least make attempts to actively defend their patents: if they don't, it can enable some HUGE arguments later on in future defendants' favor.
@boeubanks7507
9 ай бұрын
@AeriFyrein True. That may be a reason for a no-fault settlement between LianLi and Phantek. The suit is just a formality. By settling without fault on both sides, they both have met the burden of defending their patents without a significant outlay of capital.
@alexatkin
9 ай бұрын
But then you have the argument of is using pogo pins/pads not an obvious evolution from cables? To me it is, plenty of other devices moved from plugs to pogo pins. The idea that their physical location matters is just crazy, the patent system is so flawed that they can take a bunch of things people have already done but their specific combination somehow is unique? If they had completely copied it, sure, but just being similar should not be an infringement IMO.
@gokublack8342
9 ай бұрын
@alexatkin Yeah I think Phanteks can win easily enough it's Thermaltake that could go either way
@GearandGaming
9 ай бұрын
Yesterday if someone had told me I would watch a 45 minute video about the nauances of fan patents I would have called them nuts. Then GN comes out with a 45 minute video on fan patents... Insert "Thanks Steve" clip here.
@kjmason62
9 ай бұрын
One of the options that wasn't raised (and I don't know if it would apply in this case) would be for a company to file the infringement case with the US International Trade Commission. The USITC has the ability to investigate and through its administrative law judges make a determination that a good being imported to the US has violated a US patent. The effect of such a decision is the exclusion of the offending good from being imported into the US. Because it is being heard by an administrative law judge, there is no jury, no award of damages but the case can be decided much faster.
@kaltonian
9 ай бұрын
Trouble is for the companies involved is that its inevitable that fan design was going to go in this direction of design
@D3humaniz3d
9 ай бұрын
It's absurd that an electrical connection between two components can be patented. Patent law in general needs to go.
@falcie7743
9 ай бұрын
This feels like a really big reach. There's no way this is successful.
@mjc0961
9 ай бұрын
That's what I would have said about Asetek's lawsuit, but guess what...
@andrewt.5567
9 ай бұрын
Good to hear that a "jury of your piers" has finally extended to youtube, where all the facts are held.
@lookimhere2005
9 ай бұрын
Honestly, this has been the best report on what's actually happening from the pc world and legal stand point. I watch a lot of other channels and this was a joy to watch. SUSCRIBED!
@paulhennigan1995
9 ай бұрын
Seem like a company filling a frivolous lawsuit to try and corner the market. They thought they would be the only one to do it. Just gives me a reason to not purchase any lian li product by trying to stiffle the types of products and competions available to the consumer.
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