Thank you for making this video! This video aged well with the price of lithium recently too.
@rogeredrinn4592
5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for that analysis. I replaced my 8 - L16s last year with another set of L16s, about $2000. So in 20 years I've gone through 2 sets of lead acid batteries and I'm on the 3rd set. Looks like for the foreseeable future LA will still be the battery of choice. Interesting that the panels have a 25-year life, I'm getting close at 21 years. I suspect new panels are both more efficient and cheaper. But disposing of anything old (TVs etc.) is a nightmare. So until the Trimetric shows weak charge I'll run with the old panels.
@Sage-Preston
2 жыл бұрын
Very nicely done, thank you for the great comparison! Absolutely love your expressive wording.
@StephenJPayne
6 жыл бұрын
Very interesting and well done. Thanks for recording good audio, so many don't.
@RVingtoAlaska
6 жыл бұрын
This is a great demonstration and very informative. However, I would like to see the same test completed utilizing the manufactures suggested Depth of Discharge for each battery chemistry. I'm in the USA and have a large motorhome traveling most of the year. We use LifePO4 batteries with Victron Energy components and solar panels. Rvers generally understand how to maximize the life of their batteries. I believe the same test done under more "normal' conditions would be more beneficial to most people.
@bmartinot
3 жыл бұрын
This is only helpful if your into abusing batteries. I bet most people will write off lead acid and think lithium is the only way after watching this. I would love to see a test with mixed cycles without abusing them and mixed solar type charging cycles. My agms where bought second hand from a yacht and have worked every day for two years now and still work perfectly.
@SterlingPowerLtd
3 жыл бұрын
Hi Bmartinot, Running a moderate or light cycle test would be a waste of time, as, if we stuck to 40% DOD the test would last a year with only moderate or gradual degradation on the lead acid side. This test is mostly to show that you can actually utilise the entirety of your lithium bank, comfortably, instead of being forced to only use 50% of your traditional lead acid bank. They're lighter, quicker to charge, and you can use more of them. Their downsides are the fact that they require bespoke charging, more management and they cost more. I understand your point wholly, but this video was more to show the fact that if people do end up trying to use the whole capacity of their bank, as many people will do if they don't understand the limitations with non-lithium batteries, they'd be better off considering a lithium route. I'll log your interests anyway and pass it across to the engineering team if we end up doing any further tests on this front :) B
@TheDaztheraz
Жыл бұрын
Would be interested to see some mixed cycles, looking at options for an additional battery for weekends camping to run portable cooler etc, if got discharged a few times a year would lithium be an overkill and had too much complexity?
@mferrarorace
6 жыл бұрын
Thank you Charles, for many batteries, abuse is more likely than not in real life scenarios. For the masses, that low voltage cut off you mentioned is the best way to go for people who don't understand batteries, longevity vs abuse, people will continue to pay for new batteries, but they don't pay attention.
@rogerlikes
4 жыл бұрын
Very good video thanks for taking the time to make it. So many people do this! Many more people do this in their RV. They co camping and leave the lights on like they are at home and ruin the batteries. When Attach the lithium to solar you get really fast recharging without getting stuck in the absorption mode for hours, Limiting your solar panels performance.
@SterlingPowerLtd
4 жыл бұрын
Absolutely- and leaving even one light on that you forget about can totally run your battery down to an obscene level. I'd personally recommend people to fit some kind of switch on the battery output so that they know they can turn everything off at one place rather than relying on memory. Lithium is great so long as people have the right charge setup.
@andrewbancroft6174
Жыл бұрын
Great test absolutely get where you're coming from. People saying this isn't a real world test are not living in the uneducated real world! Would there be much difference between the lifetime of the agm and a sealed lead acid like you would find on a mobility scooter type battery?
@SterlingPowerLtd
Жыл бұрын
Hello Andrew, As you can see on the graph (Or- just about..!) AGM often slightly outperforms sealed lead acid, but it's a marginal improvement for often a significant difference in price. We'd generally recommend lithium. Yes, it's far more expensive, but the longevity and superior performance is a drastic step in the right direction, rather than just a little one.
@cliveadams7629
6 жыл бұрын
Interesting. A big battery bank and using it gently would cost a fair few bob, weigh a lot and be mostly wasted. Probably not costing much more, weighing a lot less and being all useful maube the time has come for lithium.
@nautilus1872
3 жыл бұрын
Great video, you would get 10% of your outlay back in scrap value on the inexpensive lead acid, that should be quantified.
@paulvlug812
3 жыл бұрын
I now use lithium battery for house, the alternator to charge it and a solar panel to keep it topped, and use a maxwell capacitor at 1800 cca to spin the starter motor, the maxwell has a 30 amp inbuilt charger. Now I have technology that will last 10 years plus 👍
@SterlingPowerLtd
3 жыл бұрын
Hi Paul! So long as your alternator isn't being run to it's limit by the incredibly low internal resistance from a lithium battery, you're gonna be fine! Whenever charging lithium we recommend a current limiting charge system because in our experience if we don't control the current, the lithium normally ends up asking for 100% from the alternator which can lead to some upset. -Ben
@melodysouljahrootsdubpress5539
4 жыл бұрын
C5 discharge rate is not unreasonable. If the way round keeping a la chemistry viable is by a large bank discharged to only 30%, the economics still don't add up. Obviously a large bank is more initial outlay. But the cost of transportation, and extra materials to gain long cycle life due to a required 70% redundancy is crazy and terribly inefficient. Also, with la, the charging slope is terrible. To keep from sulfation, the battery must have a lengthy topping off charge, at which time charge efficiency is low. In off-grid renewable energy systems, this is very often not achieved/unachievable. Internal resistance maybe low for a new la, but slight discharge over weeks (not uncommon) raises this resistance. This results in poor charge acceptance at a time when ever amp needs to be stored (winter months). Lithium has very few of these drawbacks. Bigger initial outlay sure, but with a functional BMS protection system a lithium will provide stable long term performance. Also, the industry standard for battery replacement time is when 20% degradation has occurred. With la chemistry, after 20% has occurred, the loss of capacity speeds up. This is not the case for lithium. All this has convinced me to replace my AGM bank with lithium.
@frankjaegar1805
3 жыл бұрын
Absolutely brilliant video
@robertgarbe6348
6 жыл бұрын
Wow, for me the take away that LI batts can realistically be discharged to 20% SOC without damage is validated. And occasional claims that AGM can also is unsubstantiated.
@copperknob1971
Жыл бұрын
Hi, great video, I’m looking to change to lithium in my motorhome but have a few technical questions, what is the best way for me to get these answered ? Thanks
@SterlingPowerLtd
Жыл бұрын
Strong name..! Pop me an email at info@sterling-power.com and I'll do what I can to support.
@harleyd500
5 жыл бұрын
LOL baeting the LFP to crazy discharging levels. 2.5v/cell is so close to falling off the cliff for good and yet they just won't budge. I guess maybe I am babying my LFP's but thousands of cycles sounds good to me.
@liliya381
5 жыл бұрын
Very interesting and well done. Thanks.
@kenmackenzie7338
4 жыл бұрын
Okay so taking all things into consideration. As time goes on the price of lithium batteries will drop. Okay having said that. It only seems logical to buy a decent solar/wind charged system due to the weather in the UK. Or you run your engine or small generator which ever is more economical. It will only take approx 2 hours to charge your Lithium batteries. A normal car battery will take 12 hours to fully charge the battery again. So yes its very expensive but will last you more than 5 years. By that time there will be better batteries available like graphene batteries which will revolutionise the way we look at batteries, look it up the logic is there. I personally think they will be on the market by 2022. What will that give us? It will probably cost £1500 per 110Ah battery but will charge in under 30 minutes. You will be able to drain the battery to approx 10% and then recharge it fully in under 30mins you'll be able to efficiently and economically produce your own electricity either by solar or even running your own diesel engine. This will revolutionise electric cars, they will be able to travel further and have an onboard generator as the car travels. As for inland narrow boats etc which only travel at approx 4 to 5 MPH they could swap out their old diesel engines and instal electric motors run off of graphene batteries charged by a small generator or graphene batteries charged by solar/wind. Exciting times
@SterlingPowerLtd
4 жыл бұрын
Hi Ken, Fair points but there comes a point where faster charging isn't necessarily better charging. We'd need alternators that are actually comfortable to put out as crazy a charge rate as you're after and, assuming graphene has an even lower internal resistance than lithium, we'd also need to current limit the charge so that the alternator doesn't essentially explode. After all, low internal resistance means that an alternator can put across a much, much higher current but without working as hard. This sounds good, but it isn't. When an alternator is working hard it has it's own inherent cooling that stops it from breaking down quickly. When it's providing its max current output easily, which graphene and lithium would allow, it will be smoking and the long term health of your alternator would be at risk. To combat this you'd need to treat it similarly to lithium in how it requires current limiting. You'd need to put our battery to battery chargers on it solely to stop your alternator from exploding. We're getting to the point now where some things need to be held back rather than given free leash. Hell, even if the alternator's fine, you're still going to need current limiting because how many cars have cable that will allow 200A? Not many, and certainly not for cheap!
@rickw4160
5 жыл бұрын
at least slow discharge rates are briefly discussed. even at current lipo4 12v100ah batteries are around 800-1000. for 800, you can get effectively 12v800ah. adjusting for "usage" and recommended levels, @50 percent depth, you still have 400ah of capacity. at 100ah of discharge,that's not even 15%. If weight, some maintainance, and space isn't a huge concern, deep cycle lead batteries win, even if charge efficiency and discharge efficiency isn't quite as good, from a cost perspective. Lithium batteries are like Ferraris, lead acids are like Camrys. For RVs the weight savings is substantial, not to mention vibration and temperature. but for stationary solar applications, lead acid will win for now, until cheaper lithium comes about.
@SterlingPowerLtd
4 жыл бұрын
You're about right. The advantages of lithium are it's longevity, weight benefits and energy density. Advantage of lead acid are it's CCA, established history and economics.
@Vikingmanitoba
Жыл бұрын
This test is based on really mistreating your batteries. I wonder what the cost comparison would be if the lead acid batteries are properly maintained. I have gotten 5-7 years on my lead-acid batteries on my sailboat with solar panels and a proper solar regulator.
@SterlingPowerLtd
Жыл бұрын
Hello Viking man! Strong name. The test is based on using your batteries to a relatively deep discharge, but realistically any discharge beyond about 50% can be detrimental to a lead acid battery. The exception to this is flooded/open lead acid batteries that can be maintained to a far better degree. Then again, if you are using a 1000Ah battery bank only to use 300Ah of it to ensure longevity of the batteries (which is certainly doable, moderate discharge depths will lead to longer life), you may as well save on weight and space by moving to Lithium 300Ah and have the same usable capacity. In our opinions, of course. Ben
@MrMarkAMartin
6 жыл бұрын
I don't see a comparison to a high-quality lead acid battery, a pair of 6V Trojan T-105 for instance. In any case, thanks for the tip on latching relays, I hope to use that and one of your battery to battery chargers as I build my custom recreational vehicle this summer in the USA. I'm a big fan of your videos but wish you would have compared a lithium to the very best lead acid has to offer. I think Lithium's are over hyped
@scruff7559
6 жыл бұрын
More scientific compare cells than batteries...less room to fudge the results. I agree 6V is a superior build for traction and li-ion is hyped.
@d.cantrell4591
5 жыл бұрын
Thank you for doing the research. I Don't think I am ready to invest in lithium technology of today yet. Nano technology will bring us a much better less dangerous battery that is not so picky with its requirements of charge/discharge and temperature requirements. These newer batteries will be a hybrid of battery and capacitor allowing us the best of both worlds both in charging and discharge. I In vision a frame for the machine as part of the battery there by reducing the weight and size. Electric 4 wheelers would not need a frame. Making these batteries modular and only in a few sizes would reduce cost. Don't think in terms of only flashlight batteries (18650) same as used in the Tesla. Flashlight, lawn mower, car not one size fits all.
@leoanazemi3797
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks very informative
@scruff7559
6 жыл бұрын
If I made a 5 cell lead acid and gave it an effective rating instead of an actual then it'd be a fairer comparison. A FLA cell held above 2.0V will hold it's own to a li-ion cell held above 3.5V. This is all Charles is doing, stacking the deck in favour of his Li-Ion. This video is marketing not science. Comparing low quality lead acid driven like a rented donkey with li-ion that's operating in an optimised envelope. This does not reflect the chemistry capability Just the user regime.
@melodysouljahrootsdubpress5539
4 жыл бұрын
I don't see it like that. The batteries were tested in real world conditions. Cell count is neither here nor there. Battery output voltage is. The battery manufacturers spec their products ah rating for an end voltage of 10.5v. The lithium would also drop to about this level before BMS cut it off. The fact is that the test was equal between chemistry. You might want to look at the Excide corporation and their (historic) grip on the battery industry. Taking la and its flaws into account, it's a wonderful battery to market as using it in automotive applications where large bursts of energy are required with immediate recharge is fine. But it's a marketing con to claim the advertised ah, let alone cycle life when the ah is actually used.
@JoelPit
4 жыл бұрын
How about adding a BMS to say a 12vdc SLA and call 12.2 0% and have it shut off until above. Now you can run a SLA to 0% without damaging it lol great marketing right. Oh and change the actual 12.2 to a made up number of 13.2. Which would put full at 13.7 sound like a better battery already lol
@seanbrendangarrette7644
3 жыл бұрын
Well said.This is nonsense.This is not a scientific test,the design of the experiment is deliberately rigged against FLA,the design of the experiment is rigged to favour Li-Ion,this is not an experiment but abuse,why didn’t he design it with the Li-Io battery teared down to remove the bms just as the FLA battery didn’t have a bms,Deep Cycle FLA Batteries we’ll taken care of are way way cheaper than LiFePO4 batteries. All you have to do is 1)Discharge to 50% SOC 2)Make sure you regularly clean the terminals 3)Top up with distilled water as often as is demanded by the way/rate you’re using them 4)Invest in low battery disconnect equipment like Victron BP(US$~56 for 12/24V 65Amp version) 5)Battery Management system like PowerPlus to prevent sulphation etc With proper maintenance,you should get at least 8 years with FLA,costs of Li-Ion is 3x,which means that you can but 2 more sets of FLA.
@peterbradley4916
3 жыл бұрын
good info
@JeanLouisBourdon
6 жыл бұрын
are lithium batteries more dangerous to carry in a small RV than let's say an AGM? concerned about "spontaneous combustion"
@SterlingPowerLtd
4 жыл бұрын
Apologies for being so incredibly late to this, responding now mostly for other people curious about the same thing. If you don't hit them with an axe and generally just charge them correctly, you'll see no faults with them.
@james10739
4 жыл бұрын
It would be nice to see t he 50% did test with an occasional like down to 20% on the lead but that would take forever
@SterlingPowerLtd
4 жыл бұрын
Hi James, You'd see much the same results. Lithium would stay comfortable on a flat line (varying slightly up and down here and there due to either reading calibration or temperature) and various lead acids would follow a similar drop, although over a longer period so it would be a slightly softer drop. Sealed lead acid batteries naturally sulphate and lose efficiency and life over time, it's just a fact of how they work. You can run desulphation cycles but overall efficiency will still drop gradually. If you can put up with the admittedly higher price point inherent in lithium (which is, gradually, dropping) and can invest in the chargers that are necessary to care for them you often see the long term benefits long outweigh the initial investment. If you're going to use the batteries heavily and want to rely on them for long journeys, it becomes a case of weighing up a new lead acid battery once or twice a year, versus one lithium battery, at worst, every five years (five year Sterling warranty). We would have done this test, but we frankly valued our lifetime.
@JoelPit
4 жыл бұрын
How about a group 27 walmart marine 89 amp hour battery for $100 US that lasted over one year and that provided all the power needed for boondocking ran down to 10vdc atleast 5 times at that rate thats a new battery yearly for 10 years to get that $1000 us li ion price. Without any concerns for care of the battery. That's charging daily with solar. Put in service April 2018 replaced December 2019. You can find a video of the removal on my KZitem channel TRAVELING WITH JRP. I did replace the battery with 2 used interstate 6DC then later with 2 brand new Duracell 6VDC but that was only to stay a the top end of the charge. Now my system only discharges to around 12.6 over night and totally recharged 3 hour after sun rise. So how many cycle if I stay above 95% SOC and recharging daily to 100% using the Tri-metric RV 2030 battery monitor to watch them.
@SterlingPowerLtd
4 жыл бұрын
Hi Joel, Did your Walmart battery retain its 89AH capacity for the entire time you had it? If you're staying over 95% SOC you've probably got a battery bank too big for what you're actually using it for, and it'll most likely last a very long time. Though, like I can say for all things when it comes to batteries, the Lithium will still last longer. Luckily, lithium prices are dropping but we do respect they're not cheap. It's permanently going to be a case of lead acid batteries fundamentally deteriorating over time. Lithium batteries, as far as we can see, are far less vulnerable to this deterioration, even under high DOD.
@David_11111
3 жыл бұрын
is there a follow up with a Nice treatment logged ... rather than Nasty !!!!
@vtorsi610
3 жыл бұрын
"Nice" treatment would take too long, like many years ( 3 - 10 yrs ) for the Lead-Acid and maybe a decade for Li-Ion.
@markjmaxwell9819
5 жыл бұрын
Not suprised The price of lithium ion batteries has come down thankfully :-)
@johnrand2862
5 жыл бұрын
I don’t think that this video made the case for which battery type one should be using. It made a much better case for using a battery protect to prevent the batteries from being overly discharged. The cost of a battery protect added to flooded lead acid is low enough to make even AGMs not economical for the type of usage that he is concerned about.
@frodev728
5 жыл бұрын
This would be more realistic if you went down to 10.0v which is the point lithium iron phosphate can become seriously damaged... THe kind of people who use cheap lead acid and run it down until equipment craps out before charging again are never going to consider even a decent AGM battery. As soon as you limit the discharge rate the results would change a lot. I think on a longer time frame we’re going to see similar results but this test case is not realistic, despite your disclaimer it’s pretty pointless. IMHO... still interesting data though.
@SterlingPowerLtd
4 жыл бұрын
As you ascertained- if it was a lighter depth of discharge we'd still expect to see very similar results, just with a softer curve- or they'd survive for longer before dropping off. We didn't particularly fancy turning a 6 month experiment into a two year one, really. It just became a time/effort equation.
@frodev728
4 жыл бұрын
SterlingPowerLtd Fair enough! thanks for replying, even if it did take a year ;)
@SterlingPowerLtd
4 жыл бұрын
@@frodev728 Yeah, sorry about that one! We didn't have anyone on social media for a long time. But, alas, here I am.
@frodev728
4 жыл бұрын
SterlingPowerLtd hahaha no problem :)
@DougJohns
Жыл бұрын
Not sure why you would assume that most people would let thier batteries go down to 10.5 volts...I bet most, like myself would not so it makles your little experiment pretty much useless... for most.
@ericjay7824
3 жыл бұрын
I'm sorry but this is just as one sided as the general battery company's data. The difference is that it's not real world in the opposite direction, Unless, of course, one is running a fleet of vans with inverters so the drivers can brew a cup of tea at will and it will and boil the water until the battery goes dead...LMAO.. No one, on a boat, runs his inverter till it shuts down because of low voltage and charges the battery back up. Very disappointing. Give us a real world test, please.
@SterlingPowerLtd
3 жыл бұрын
Hi Eric, What test would you like to see? In our experience there is some clear benefits to lithium over lead acid, and some fairly evident downsides, too. PROS: High charge rates in high performance batteries. Generally customisable high discharge rates, too. Some batteries are better than others, dependent on BMS. Half the weight of lead acid and sometimes half the size. Often utilises a BlueTooth BMS for ease of monitoring More of the battery can be used, safely. The option to discharge down to 80% (and often further, but then it becomes gambling) vs a lead acid's 50% and still have a 5 year warranty makes it a fairly simple choice for many CONS: Far, far more expensive Requires a more controlled and thus often more expensive setup, otherwise the BMS will trip and you have a 0V paperweight Often unsuitable as a cranking battery unless you have a unique BMS setup. You'd be surprised how many calls we do get about people who discharge their lead acids too low, continuously, thus damaging the battery and then being surprised when they can't run even basic appliances for long. -Ben
@joywebster2678
3 жыл бұрын
Batteries for cars suck.
@awesomusmaximus3766
5 жыл бұрын
Try the test with a high quality lead acid battery as comparison your results are biased
@funkyronster
5 жыл бұрын
I think the point is valid, but "biased" is a bit too strong. I use a high quality lead battery - an Odyssey PC1800 - in a motorhome application. I have it set to cut out at 11.5v and this rarely happens, but it does regularly get discharged to around 11.8. I have monitored it closely, and am currently in year 3. It is definitely starting to deteriorate gradually and I am expecting it to need replacing in another year or so. It has certainly performed better than previous low quality or cheap systems that I have had in previous years. Lithium prices are coming down rapidly, and I expect my next upgrade to be lithium.
@melodysouljahrootsdubpress5539
4 жыл бұрын
Another real world test would be testing a battery subjected to partial charge over periods of time. I rather suspect your expensive lead acid might not fair too well. In anything other than a car, this is real world conditions. No effect on lithium capacity but most harmful to la.
@francouz23
3 жыл бұрын
nope, i can tell you from a years experience living offgrid, always having the best technology that was (for instance hoppecke vr-m agm, sonnenschein opzv, that are comming nearly on a price of a lithium) and yet, lifepo4 is still miles ahead, not to mention standard average crap lead-acid batteries their effectivity is worth to mention and after like 10 years of daily discharge on 90%dod, you still can operate the lithium battery another decades, as its whole capacity over about 5k cycles drops to 80%, so still pretty strong
@awesomusmaximus3766
3 жыл бұрын
@@francouz23 AGM batts aren't really the best lead acid can offer flooded lead acid if you buy the best can give you 30 years of use lithium ION will die after about 10 years whether you use them or not. Life PO4 though might be better but the jury is still out on that.
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