Also, I hate how people say "Oh but Elia would've been OK with them since she's from Dorne." Yeah, she would've been OK with her husband taking on a mistress and a bastard, not abandoning her and her children with his clearly insane and dangerous father to secretly annul their marriage and denounce their children for a girl half his age, is betrothed to someone else and whom he barely knows.
@zillagrilla315
Жыл бұрын
Totally, Ellia would have been fine with Rhaegar telling her that he planned on taking a bastard and legitimizing when he's King. But kidnapping a Lady of a Great House who is betrothed to another Great House she would have slapped him.
@calico_queen8976
Жыл бұрын
@@zillagrilla315 Honestly, this gonna get some hate but I would've preferred if they kept that story that Lyanna was taken by force and had Jon by force since in the books, Rhaegar was obsessed with fulfilling the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised and he wasn't the first Targaryen to be start thinking about it. The whole 'They were in love' just makes both characters terrible especially with how much drama and death they caused. It also makes Lyanna look like a hypocrite cause she dislikes Robert due to being a womanizer but gets together with a married guy who then illegitimizes his actual children with his abandoned wife for their own. She has also never met him other than the Tourney at Harennhall. Seriously, Arya gets compared to her and pretty sure, Arya would've hated Lyanna had she found out the truth.
@zillagrilla315
Жыл бұрын
@@calico_queen8976 Honestly I think it kinda fits, we don't know their personalities only what people thought of them. Lyanna and Rhaegar are viewed through rose-tinted memories many people never remember their flaws and just remember they're positive traits. In a Barristan chapter, he stated that Viserys had the same mad look that Aerys had but that was false. Viserys wasn't mad when he was in Westeros, it wasn't until he and Dany were living on the streets that broke him. Before Viserys sold his mother's crown he was a kind older brother to Dany. So it would be a classic GRRM thing to do to make a picture of two young people in love but dying tragically only to reveal two selfish people that disregarded their oaths for their own personal gains. Rhaegar gained the son of the pact of Ice and Fire to be remembered as the father of the chosen one. While Lynna gains freedom and protection from Robert.
@robstewartstewart98
Жыл бұрын
@@zillagrilla315 I still don't understand why the show bothered to include the priest in the Weirwood image Bran saw (you could have seen Rhaegar and Lyanna promising themselves to each other) and WHY THE BLOODY TARNATIONS SHOW RHAEGAR ANNULING THE MARRIAGE TO ELIA?! From a plot prospective doesn't Sam discovering a letter where Rhaegar legitimizes his bastard son accomplish the same thing?
@zillagrilla315
Жыл бұрын
@@robstewartstewart98 Like the video said, the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna is basically a gaslight in the TV series to show the audience of two tragic lovers who die before they can raise their son. Bran's vision basically told the audience that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love with each other. While if it was just the letter, it could be left to speculation that Lyanna was forced to marry Rhaegar at the threat of death. Similar to Sansa and Joffrey betrothal.
@mimiHTcat
Жыл бұрын
i can buy that lyanna went willingly, i can buy that she had a crush, wanted to escape, and did not think through her decision. i cannot buy that she stayed willingly when she was screaming for ned and specifically asked to be brought home. not to mention that she's compared to arya, who is fiercely loyal to and protective of her family.
@spiritofarkham1235
Жыл бұрын
While Rhaegar was crazy his father was worse. Lyanna is suddenly found? Well even Elia would have been a btter match in Aeyrs's eyes. And he dispised her daughter for "smelling Dornish". Can you imagine what he would have done to Lyanna? Rhaegar likely justified locking her up as for her own good. Again Rhaegar isn't the picture perfect man people like Jon Con remember him as but Aeyrs was way worse.
@Law-of-EnTropy
Жыл бұрын
@@spiritofarkham1235 this ain't about Aerys tho. It's about Rhaegar's actions and motives. Comparison between the two is insignificant in explaining Rhaegar's actions. His reasonings were always revolving around the prophecy he's been holding to since he was young. He's not mad like Aerys was, but Rhaegar can easily be the type of person who says things like "the ends justify the means"
@spiritofarkham1235
Жыл бұрын
@@Law-of-EnTropy Yes but what i was saying was that Rhaegar may have internally justified it as being for Lyanna's own good. I doubt he would admit how mad he might have been even to himself. if he rationalized having an affair with Lyanna as being for the "greater good" then he would try to say locking her in the tower of joy with three kingsguard as for Lyanna's safety. Therefore he is trying to convince himself that he is better then his father.
@TheDzudas
Жыл бұрын
I hope its not like in TV Show, its not SoIaF style , that would be another romantic story. There is no logic for them to be in love. 1.Lyanna told she cant love Robert ,because he would cheat her. But she goes for the married man. 2. They knew war would happen if they dont tell the truth 3. She could save her father and Brother , because her brother was captive, they would knew the news, before Ricard would come the Kings Landing to save Branndon. Someone would send a Raven to Rheagar. So if she is with Rheagar, she let her father and Brother die. I belive she was the Knight of lauging tree, Rheagar captured her and fell in love. He was obssesed by prophecy and he knew she was perfect to fufill it. We all know Targeryans become unreasonble when it comes with prophecy (its running gag in that family). So he capture her, rape her , because he is 100% that is the best thing to do no matter what people would think of him, in his eyes its the best thing to do for the realm and people. I dont belive Lyanna would go for married man, let the war happen and let her brother and father die because of her. Also for Rheagar the safest option would be to tell that they are in love. Only Robert would Rebel or maybe not even him, because other kindoms would not have reason to rebel
@sugarpearl9781
Жыл бұрын
@@spiritofarkham1235That’s an illogical justification. The kingsguard went down when Ned and his group came. And there’s no way they assumed Ned would be a threat to Lyanna. Chances are they were there to act as Lyanna’s jailers, not her protectors.
@arvinroidoatienza7082
2 жыл бұрын
Fun Fact: In Westerosi law, you cannot just annul a marriage with your spouse if you already have children with them. It's safe to say that Rhaegar married Lyanna as his second wife as per old Valyrian tradition. Also the Rhaegar actor's wig is obvious Viserys'.
@spiritofarkham1235
Жыл бұрын
That's actually been repeated with the actor for Aemond in House of the Dragon wearing a wig indentical to one Matt Smith used as Daemon in the first episode. Given how similar Daemon and Aemond are it not hard to think that this seemingly lazy resuse of assets is meant to suggest two characters being very simmilar.
@siamihari8717
Жыл бұрын
The Valyrion Tradition is a good call, but the wig is simply a Stage Trick. Use your props and costumes as much as possible as so they dont go to waste, saves on production cost letting more go into stuff like writing and making a good shoot
@arvinroidoatienza7082
Жыл бұрын
@@siamihari8717 Yes but Rhaegar has always described as very handsome so it's not really ideal.
@warpedwhimsical
Жыл бұрын
Always thought the annulment line from the show sounded dumb. Definitely more thematically consistent too if Rhaegar thought he was above common law like Aegon and Maegor
@Manterok
Жыл бұрын
@@arvinroidoatienza7082the first time I watched it, I was like "huh?! So she married Viscerys? I thought he was the same age as Jon?? Near about anyway...and he's fuckin goofy looking as fuck!" When I realized it was Rhaegar, I was pretty disappointed...I mean glad it wasn't Viscerys, but Rhaegar was supposed to be like the real life Lucifer lol. Beautiful....and all that.
@lyamainu
2 жыл бұрын
People like to romanticize them for two reasons: not wanting Jon to be a product of rape (understandably); and being obsessed with the Targaryen family as magical fantasy heroes.
@shadowhunter2190
2 жыл бұрын
I never understood that, most of the time is made pretty clear that most of the problems of the realm is caused by the Targaryens.
@sol.azulalado
Жыл бұрын
👏👏👏
@Allthingsasian
Жыл бұрын
It’s really ironic because the Targaryens are responsible for most of the bullshit that has happened in Westeros- The Dance of the Dragons, The Blackfyre Rebellions, Robert’s rebellion and a shit ton of ppl dead from their dragons throughout the centuries.
@HainiDjokovic1995
Жыл бұрын
@@Allthingsasian but still I'm glorifying Targaryen families. What do you expect from Targaryen families? They can do whatever they want as long to maintain their hegemony over Westeros. In real life history, great powers such as Roman, Mongols, and current United States involved in so many wars in order to maintain their power and hegemony over the world.
@r1reis
Жыл бұрын
@@HainiDjokovic1995 #SUMMERHALLWASANINSIDEJOB
@hamzaorakzai3490
2 жыл бұрын
Thank God Jon isn't anywhere near as vain and self absorbed as his parents. Good job, Ned.
@rosesweetcharlotte
2 жыл бұрын
That's because Jon wasn't raised to be a spoiled prince.
@TheGoddon
2 жыл бұрын
He literally caused Daenerys to lose her mind. He just maybe worse.
@Dc225_
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheGoddon joke? If not, plz elaborate
@sigmalpha_testostronewolf
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheGoddon Daenerys is a grown ass woman, she can control her own feelings
@sophiejones3554
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheGoddon not sure how you're making out that any of that was Jon's fault, given he wasn't even there until the very end. Also, Mirri Maz Duur would beg to differ.
@guccizuko
2 жыл бұрын
I almost never see anyone talk about how lyanna would react to her father and brother’s deaths. like even if she did leave with rhaegar willingly and was in love with him, would she want to stay after she learnt that rhaegars dad killed her family?? so either rhaegar didn’t tell her (fucked up) or he forced her to stay (even more fucked up)
@milanmilacic9311
2 жыл бұрын
Or Rhaegar told her that he planned to overthrow the mad king possibly even spinning it as revenge for her brothers (kind of fucked up)
@rosesweetcharlotte
2 жыл бұрын
I assume Rhargar told her that their deaths would be avenged.
@nikolascoffey6453
2 жыл бұрын
Do mind he literally had her locked in a tower guarded by his knights who kept her away from her own brother (even when she was screaming for him), so I highly doubt it was consensual
@RedRoseSeptember22
2 жыл бұрын
@@rosesweetcharlotte Who is this Rhargar?
@lyndsaycrawford
2 жыл бұрын
Yep that’s always bothered me. How much did Lyanna know about the consequences of their disappearance.
@matthewflynn5458
2 жыл бұрын
Also another big indicator that Lyanna isn't a lovesick princess. Look at who she's compared to by Ned. Ned never thinks. "Sansa is like Lyanna with her love of stories love and Prince's. He always compares Ayra to Lyanna." Can you imagine how Ayra would react to Rheagar.
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
Exactly, and Arya is exactly the kind of person who would want to flee any betrothal, it is literally impossible to imagine her getting swept up in romance and deciding to abandon everything for a crush, which is why I assume that Rhaegar had to have misled her about his intentions when she first left with him.
@matthewflynn5458
2 жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT yeah. I imagine he went with the romantic gesture at harrenhal. Lyanna laughed at him like Ayra laughed at gendry. Then a year later when he found her he either kidnapped her or tricked her as you said.
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
@@matthewflynn5458 Yeah, my presumption is that when her met her he wasn't so much "lovestruck" as GRRM described it, but felt like she was destined to bear his miracle child. Then, once she realized that she was desperate to get out of her betrothal with Robert, he offered to help, and it makes sense that she'd believe it because he's the second most powerful man in the country and is likely to become king soon.
@matthewflynn5458
2 жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT yeah. Now preston jacobs brought up a good point where Obyren fought his duel with the Yornwood when he was the same age. So there is the possibility however unlikely that she was manipulating him on some level. Maybe she said. "OK I'll bear you a child if you help me escape my betrothal."
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
@@matthewflynn5458 I guess it's not impossible, but I find it fascinating that GRRM lets us know so little about Lyanna EXCEPT all of her traits that seem to directly contradict the idea that she'd go along with Rhaegar's plans. I mean, the main reason she supposedly wanted to bail on Robert is because of his bastard children, so the notion that she'd volunteer to help Rhaegar cheat on his wife and leave his family just doesn't square up. I really hope GRRM actually sheds some light on what really happened with the two of them at some point.
@daniell1483
2 жыл бұрын
A lot of well stated points. People tend to overlook the age difference between these two, 14-year-old Lyanna and a 26-year-old Rhaegar. If we had a relationship like that in our world, we'd call the cops on Rhaegar. Yet somehow because we are reading things happening in a medieval setting, we just accept that it makes sense in universe. And it really doesn't. Whatever else went on in that relationship, you can be sure a lot of manipulation was involved.
@realhillkell
Жыл бұрын
Yes. It's a medieval story and that's how they operate whether you see it as moral is your business but 14 is kind of like an age of consent of some kind in Westeros. Not saying Rhaegar and lyanna were perfect couple or something that's probably not true but their age where lords and stuff start making marriage pacts with their kids and shit is majorly around age 14-16
@akeemguy1857
Жыл бұрын
You literally explained why we think it's okay 🤦🏾♂️
@bgm3460
Жыл бұрын
GRR Martin put child marrige in their stories because he wants we see the horrors of medieval times, a 14 years old lady not has the mind or the body for marrige an adult man, many of them suffer in labor or were punish by their husbands
@jenniferumana4239
11 ай бұрын
The more reason why it would have been easier to manipulate her though
@someonelol9999
11 ай бұрын
Lyanna was 15 and Rhaegar 22
@Allthingsasian
2 жыл бұрын
I always wonder what Rhaegar’s plans actually really were for Lyanna after the war. Because looking at the situation his actions seem very rushed, self absorbed and not thought out at all. Like was he going to marry her? -First of all judging from the small glimpses of Lyanna’s personality she would have made a terrible Queen who wasn’t apt in politics or how to really play the Game. - Second, although polygamy is common in Valyrian customs no Targareyan successfully had more than one wife expect Aegon the conqueror and I’m pretty sure he got away with it because he just won a whole ass war against a nation. His son Maegor couldn’t even get away with it and he had dragons. Rhaegar does not. - say they already got married and he annulled his marriage to Elia like in the show. First of all I doubt their marriage would even be accepted given he doesn’t really have any grounds to annul Elia. They both consummated their marriage evidence is of course their 2 kids. And if it can’t be properly annulled. As I said before the Faith would never validate Rhaegar’s marriage, especially considering the ‘old gods’ were the minority religion. And hypothetically if he managed to annul Elia and cast her aside. Not only does this piss off Dorne but it risks their kids being bastards which would have led to a second dance no questions. There’s just a bunch of inconsistencies. And overall I feel like Rhaegar didn’t really think things through. No wonder Varys worked actively against Rhaegar whilst he was alive.
@MegaKnight2012
2 жыл бұрын
Unless Jon was a bastard, as Martin keeps referring to him, and the showrunners inserted the annulment and Lyanna marriage part. One of the showrunners also romanticized Paris and Helen's abduction/romance in the movie Troy, despite it leading to Troy and Paris' family's doom, so why not romanticize what easily could be Martin's own version of Paris abducting Troy. It's also possible that it was Elia who pushed Rhaegar to take another woman as a lover since she could have believed the Azhor Ahai prophecy whilst also wanting to live so as to care for her own children. Since she was from Dorne, which has R'hlorr temples, a looser view on multiple lovers and holds bastards in higher esteem than the other Seven Kingdoms, Elia might have convinced Rhaegar that a bastard child would service the prophecy as a well as a trueborn. They might have picked Lyanna because they read somewhere that she was descended from the Night King (Martin's book Night King, not the show's) making her of Ice, and a nemesis of the Targaryen House of Fire, making hers and Rhaegar's child the perfect Son of Ice and Fire. In some stories, Helen of Troy is the daughter of Nemesis, an unstoppable female deity, so Lyanna descended from a similar Nemesis figure might fit with Martin making interesting altercations to classic narratives.
@lauravergot9995
2 жыл бұрын
I think he knew he was going to die and his house would fall hence his focus on the future and the child that was promised.
@subratanandy2142
6 ай бұрын
Of course Rhaeger didn't think this through. He only needed Lyanna to bear a kid , what would happen afterwards was none of his concern :( . He could've kept Lyanna confined, legitimised the kid and who would've been able to do anything? Nobody, or so he thought, until Bobby B came along and caved his chest in .
@Queenfloofles
6 ай бұрын
Was he going to do a Bale and deposit her at Winterfell with the baby..?
@laurelsilberman5705
6 ай бұрын
@@MegaKnight2012I think you mean Paris’s kidnapping of Helen of Troy; Troy was where she was from, not the name of the woman. But excellent points.
@mickey_dbeh6105
2 жыл бұрын
I'm still not over her hating Robert because of his bastards and the idea that he would limit her "wildness," then run away w/a MARRIED prince to be what... the Queen? One of the most restrictful roles. Make it make sense. As far I'm concerned, Rhaegar was a mad, prophecy obsessed fool who put fantasies in an impressionable young girl's (though just as to blame, b*tch couldn't leave a letter). **post-vid, said exactly what I've always been thinking.
@jamie_d0g978
2 жыл бұрын
He was kinda right at the end
@mickey_dbeh6105
2 жыл бұрын
@@jamie_d0g978 I'm more inclined to believe Westeros survived the Long "one episode" Night in spite of him that because of him. I mean both can be argued I guess. I feel like Westeros was weaker for his actions than stronger. Dragons was always destined to come back, and Robert's Rebllion and the War of the Five Kings only crippled and divided the kingdom.
@TranquilAshes
7 ай бұрын
I honestly think it would have been one of those situations where she actually stayed with Robert she would have had a happy marriage period I think I would have ended up something like a gum injury and Arya scenario. Robert never before or after felt that way about another woman again. He actually loved her, AND her family. It doesn't get too much better than that in the world of ASoIaF
@fabianbinder3681
5 ай бұрын
@@TranquilAshesBobby B could easily romanticize a woman he barely knew. But that’s about it. I don’t see any husband material there. For F‘s sake, the drunken sob slept with a virgin teen younger than his first two children. And abandoned her the moment she got pregnant. He could have lived a full and happy live as a sellsword in Essos, but a happy marriage? Never.
@thecensoredmuscle563
2 ай бұрын
@TranquilAshes I agree and Robert knows Ned would have held him to a standard since he would be married to his sister.
@ahmadsultan4643
2 жыл бұрын
It is hard to imagine Laynna who rescued Howlind Reed and disliked Robert because she thought he wouldn't be faithful to her abounden everything to become the mistress of the prince who's wife just give birth to his son and she hasn't yet recovered from the birth it is more likely a kiddnaping
@arawn1061
Жыл бұрын
@B Lor no, and in the show
@MADLADCOMICS
Жыл бұрын
It never made sense! Why be with a man who is the exact type a man you claim your fiancee would be. Plus this caused the death of her father, brother, and several innocent citizens
@jenniferumana4239
11 ай бұрын
@@MADLADCOMICShe was beautiful it’s easy for a 14 year old to be manipulated by that
@subratanandy2142
6 ай бұрын
@blor3664 it doesn't have to be an outright kidnap .... Rhaeger needed to dye his hair , sing a few songs , tell Lyanna that he was some noble of faraway land who wants a bride. He only needed to tell Lyanna that he loves he a lot and after they get married, he would let her live like a free bird or whatever bs . Lyanna would've left willingly . And when she would realise that she was pregnant and the mf was a married man with two kids, it would've been too late and too far for her to return. Plenty of young teens die in childbirth, so the only thing she could've done was pray for her kid and herself and cry for her brother.
@i0xiaY
4 ай бұрын
@@subratanandy2142I am now so horrified at the notion that he could have pretend to be someone else to convince Lyanna to escape to Volantis or something. Imagine her horror when she finds out it’s the prince 😭😭😭
@carlrood4457
2 жыл бұрын
The thing that annoys me most is the annulment in the TV series. It doesn't make sense. Rhaegar needs all three children to be legitimate. He thought Aegon was the Prince That Was Promised, not his child with Lyanna. That was just completing the set when Elia couldn't do it. "There must be one more". Given what he named his previous two childre, he was probably expecting a Targaryen looking daughter, not a Stark looking son.
@viridianacortes9642
Жыл бұрын
Maybe. He annulled the marriage. But he didn’t disinherit his first kids.
@kauswekazilimani3736
Жыл бұрын
@@viridianacortes9642 Doesn't the annulment makes those kids bastards? If so he'd just cement a 2nd dance
@chaimae3652
Жыл бұрын
@@viridianacortes9642 it doesn't work like that once you consume a marriage in westeros its impossible to annul it That's clearly D&D idea in the show
@mochalotte4702
9 ай бұрын
@@chaimae3652 no even in asoiaf rules, an annulment cancels the marriage and any kids that came from that marriage are in turn legally bastards. The only way for one to have legitimate kids from 2 marriages is for the first partner to die. If Rhaegar either didn’t marry an obviously sick person or didn’t give ten shits about Elia’s life and tried to get her to have 1 more kid which would have resulted in her death, he could have found another wife to complete the trio of kids he was seeking out. Maybe it wouldn’t have been Lyanna because she was going to marry Robert either way, but he would not have foolishly caused a war, caused the destruction of his family, and could still marry another northern girl to fulfill his weird obsessions.
@subratanandy2142
6 ай бұрын
He was probably planning on a Visenya , he even named his kids Aegon and Rhaenys.
@Elegantwoes
2 жыл бұрын
Not only that. Sansa has her own bael the bard to deal with: Petyr BAELish. During the Purple Wedding Littlefinger took Sansa (A Stark Maiden) and left behind Margaery (a rose) and whisked the Stark Maiden away. The interesting twist to Sansa's own tale is that right now she is hiding as his bastard child and Bael the Bard was killed by his son. Not only does this foreshadow Littlefinger's demise by Sansa's hands but it also establishes another crucial detail. We hsve the first and third Stark Maidens being sexually threatened by a Bael the Bard figure. Since George RR Martin loves to work in threes naturally it makes sense that the second Stark Maiden was forcibly held without her consent. Also it should be noted that George RR Martin likes to subvert with the third example with his 'rule in three,' which means that unlike the unnamed Stark Girl snd Lyanna Sansa will actually escape from her captor. The Bael the Bard tale is nothing but a horror story and a cautionary tale for Stark Maidens.
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
Yes totes! And it's also shocking how utterly unsubtle this parallel is, like when GRRM has a point to make he really hammers it home. LOL and I like that he's not just going to subvert the captive Stark maiden by letting Sansa go, but that the subversion will be that instead of ultimately dying like the first and second Stark girls, Sansa is actually going to kill the kidnapper finally. And I agree, I think it applies to the girls in particular but I think that the Bael tale in general is meant to warn the Starks against stranger danger, as their encounters with manipulative randos always tend to go terribly for them.
@shizachan8421
2 жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT I'm rather late, but if I could something: Ned and Cats story is not really a happy go lucky love story, but more bittersweet and grim in nature, if you look at it. Cait was never Neds true love, everything we learn from their backstory indicates that Ashara Dayne was. Neds story mirrors Jon story, in that he had to sacrifice love in the name of duty with the added tragedy, that he never got to live his own life. He had to live Brandons live, inherit Brandons claim, marry Brandons betrothed and die as Brandon died. And if you look at their chapters, they don't really seemed to have been that passionate about each other. They were fond of each other and made the best out of the situation, Ned even started to love Caits hair, but it was clearly a love born out of necessity. Cait herself only starts to think about Ned lovingly and passionately once he is dead, its only then that she starts to identify herself with the north and with the Starks, when before she was a stranger. Their love is tragic because Ned never got to be with the woman he truly loved and Cait only discovered how much she loved Ned when he was gone.
@101AstyMasty
2 жыл бұрын
@@shizachan8421 I'm glad when people realize and accept that. Love stories in ASOIAF are grim and circumstantial, almost all of them.
@shizachan8421
2 жыл бұрын
@@101AstyMasty Its a dark story when one of the few functional relationships we see is Roose Bolton and Fat Walda of all people, who seemingly found each other in their mutual love for bullying people.
@MountainPearls
2 жыл бұрын
Good insight! Wow. I teach English and caught the possible Stolkholm like Syndrome with Lyanna…and the parallel with Gendey (Arya not staying with him-I’m wondering if knowing Lyanna’s story was one reason why she didn’t?) There’s a part where she thinks about her Aunt Lyanna a great deal…then she learns her entire story at the end). Not this one, though! I have some students (seniors) that are reading the books in a “”book club/Novel class has this year…and they have seen the show so I won’t be giving anything away…I’m going to bring this up to them when the time is right! (And for the record, yes…the ones under 18 had to have parental permission to join in…it’s about a 1/3 of the classes actually. I can’t wait until they watch the last few seasons and we discuss those-as Martin seems to refuse to finish that particular book! History repeating itself-another example as to why Tryion chose Bran to be king…because he knew the stories (so hopefully he would keep history from repeating himself). I have some Socratic Seminar lesson plans to write for that “small group”). small group for them near Halloween! Thanks! I’m shotting this. Do you mind if read the comment out loud to the class it’s an elective Novel-“Book Club” class I teach where they choose what to read together (from a list). Most of them are watching “House of the Dragon” and paying close attention to the lore parts of the book.
@xbabydollx6632
2 жыл бұрын
I always thought it was weird that Rhaegar kept Elia by his side because he easily could’ve waited for her to recover and get her pregnant again. I understand that the maester said she couldn’t give birth again without dying , but he would’ve had 3 children still and could’ve remarried. It seemed to me he didn’t want to risk Elia dying in childbirth. I agree that Rhaegar didn’t really love Lyanna just manipulated and used her to get what he wanted, but it was always bothersome to me that he took her to Dorne of all places and even if it was for safety and privacy why would he marry her in a place that would remind him of Elia. I kinda feel like he had a twisted love for Elia and Lyanna was just a pawn in his little game but he grew to care for her. I don’t know , all I know everyone in this story needs therapy.
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
My interpretation of taking Lyanna to Dorne is actually pretty dark. Obviously I have a very unfavorable view of Rhaegar so this could be wrong, but I feel like taking Lyanna to a place that she couldn't escape from was a factor in going to Dorne, and I also think he essentially knew that she'd be relatively safe there because the Dornish couldn't betray the Targaryens as long as Elia was trapped in King's Landing. I feel like it's pretty clearly implied that the Dornish don't really want to be rallying for the Targaryens and are just doing so because of Elia, so leaving Lyanna there is incredibly callous and calculating in the sense that he's almost taking advantage of the fact that they won't ever turn on Elia despite the fact that it's his own family that's holding her hostage to force them into compliance. LOL but I have an incredibly low opinion of Rhaegar so maybe I'm not giving him enough credit for not being a shitbird.
@DLR1997
2 жыл бұрын
Plus my friends; no amount of therapy can make what happened here okay
@panspermiapancakes
2 жыл бұрын
He took her to Dorne most likely because Arthur Dayne was able to safely retreat to his own home territory. The reason Rhaegar was found is most likely due to Ashara Dayne telling Ned Stark because the two of them were in love. When she told Ned about Arthurs whereabouts, he obviously went and hunted them down which resulted in Arthurs death, which ultimately leads Ashara to suicide because she realizes she plays a role in her brothers death. Another explanation for Dorne being Rhaegar's choice is that the Dornish are very relaxed when it comes to their men having multiple women and they treat their bastards the same way they treat their royal family, as one of them. They know Elia can possibly die if she continues having children, and they are already culturally flexible when it comes to multiple partners, bastards, and women. It seems probable that the Dornish were willingly safeguarding Rhaegar and Lyanna. While it's also probably true that the whole situation offended many people in the seven kingdoms and Dorne, not everything is always as it appears in ASOIAF. I lean more towards the theory that Lyanna went willingly because she accepted her role in the future of the kingdom and believed everything Rhaegar was saying. The age difference between Rhaegar and her isn't really that consequential in my opinion because it's a known fact that girls brains develop and mature two years faster than boys their age, while it takes those boys up until their late teens or early 20's to catch up with female peers mental age. He was 22 and she was 14 when they met. 24 and 16 when they died. Both of them were pretty young, and as it was pointed out in the video, those age gaps in this fictional world is pretty common. This one is relatively "light" compared to some of them that goes on. Especially the Dany and Drogo situation.
@KateeAngel
2 жыл бұрын
He just viewed and used women as incubators for his "prophesized" children. Which is for me as a child free woman is the biggest reason to hate any character
@ChocolateRuko
2 жыл бұрын
@@panspermiapancakes your description of dorne is just racist but what to expect from someone with that username LOL. not even oberyn has “multiple women” and bastards dont get looked down on, but they cant inherit still
@nadias.mariano2196
2 жыл бұрын
You forgot to mention that Rhaegar leave his wife and his children in the hands of the mad king, who by this time hated Rhaegar and wanted Vicerys as his heir, so he could hurt or kill Elia and the children (and this eventually happened). So, Rhaegar didn't care about his own family, he was obsessed with "the song of ice and fire". Even if he truly fall in love with Lyanna (what it would be very convenient to him, because she is "ice"), I can't believe he is this perfect man that make poetry and he is kind, and sensitive... No, I kind of believe of some of the suspicious of the mad king with Rhaegar... Maybe he is not so mad after all.
@frostbite2179
2 жыл бұрын
What was he supposed to do he couldn’t get his family out of there they were fucking hostages so even if he did care about them there’s nothing he could do I highly doubt he was allowed to see them
@daddy_1453
2 жыл бұрын
He actually left his family safe and sound at DRAGONSTONE. A Rheagar faction stronghold. However, during the war just before Rhaegars death, Mad King orders Elia and her kids to come to Kings Landing. For some dumb reason, Elia obeys the order and therby becomes Mad Kings hostage, along with Rhaegars kids. Then all perished during the Lannister siege.
@thalmoragent9344
2 жыл бұрын
Mad King was DEFINITELY Mad, but Rhaegar definitely was a crappy man.
@thalmoragent9344
2 жыл бұрын
@@daddy_1453 I mean, he was the King so, if she said no, wouldn't Aerys have the means to get her whether she wanted or not? Just saying, wouldn't surprise me at this point tbh... either way, Ellia isn't as messed up or touched in the head as Rhaegar
@johnnyboygriffin5764
2 жыл бұрын
We talking about the same mad king? The one that wanted to burn them all ?
@kamimurakaori21
2 жыл бұрын
I agree that wasn't a love story, it was manipulation.
@chipmunkpark8826
2 жыл бұрын
Rhaegar f*cked everything up...that triggered Robert to start the rebellion, drove Aerys more mad, indirectly killed his other children, and sent his siblings to exile
@jamie_d0g978
2 жыл бұрын
Amd bring Jon into the world to stop the apocalypse, probably. So it's a win for good ol Rhaegie
@bobafett9348
2 жыл бұрын
@@jamie_d0g978 as far as the books go Jon Snow is dead still and as far as the show goes Arya killed Night King.
@faeknereddi4782
2 жыл бұрын
The only one I think of when I come across this pairing is Elia Martell. She had so many enemies - STAB alliance, Tywin and even Aerys. I want to learn more of her story
@bugcatcherjacky1334
2 жыл бұрын
Elia Martell and her children was the real victim of this war honestly
@arawn1061
Жыл бұрын
@@bugcatcherjacky1334 her and the thousands of dead civilians i guess
@stephanieboote5615
Жыл бұрын
This has got me thinking of the whole Knight of the Laughing tree story where they supposedly met. If Lyanna was the knight and Rhaegar did find out, it tends to be viewed as a romantic set up. It’s very fanfic meet-cute and I get it, but the dark side is Rhaegar knowing that about Lyanna gives him some pretty serious leverage over her and he could have quite easily manipulated her with that information.
@Li_Tobler
Жыл бұрын
I also find the name "Tower of joy" to be pretty ironic and telling. Knowing Martin and how generally dark and grim most of his stories are, would he really outright name this location the way he did? If their story really was so picture-perfect fanfic-y and disney-esque - which is already pretty out of character or Martin - would he really go as far as to also name it so definitively positive? Somehow, again claiming to know GRRM, I sense a bitter irony and/or sarcasm from that title, idk
@thehouseofdragon5226
Жыл бұрын
good point
@annieandelsieofarendelle3294
7 ай бұрын
@@Li_Tobler Also, Rhaegar and Lyanna are often compared to Lancelot and Guinevere or Helen and Paris, two stories that did not end happily for anyone. In fact, with the latter, Helen came to hate Paris for his cowardice and began to regret her decision to run away with him, and it took the goddess of love herself to coerce Helen back into his arms. If that's not telling of the kind of relationship they had, I don't know what is.
@Li_Tobler
7 ай бұрын
@@annieandelsieofarendelle3294 that's a brilliant addition, thank you! Gosh I can't wait for the new book to see if we were right 😩🙏
@annieandelsieofarendelle3294
7 ай бұрын
@@Li_ToblerI think what will happen is similar to Helen's story. At first, Lyanna had been taken in by Rhaegar's charms and beauty like many in Westeros and the chance to escape a loveless marriage with Robert, but after being impregnated and essentially imprisoned in the Tower of Joy Lyanna realizes how stupid this all was and tries to escape but is prevented from doing so by the Kingsguard.
@jurgnobs1308
2 жыл бұрын
it's pretty weird how many "relationships" with very young girls Martin wrote into his books. because the whole "it's a medieval setting!" thing does not actually work. because marriages of minors did happen, but only for alliance building, and in many cases the couple did not even live together until they were grown up. grown ups fucking 13 year olds has been considered fucked up in europe for a VERY long time. actually, it became more common later on in the US than it has been in europe for over a thousand years in other words: sexualising children is not at all necessary when you want to build a world based on european middle ages
@judeconnor-macintyre9874
5 ай бұрын
Early in GoT (Catelyn 2, I think--the one where they have sex and Luwin comes in with the message from Lysa) Cat and Ned actually discuss how young they were when they were engaged, and Ned says they were too young (which is why when people say: "It's normal in Westeros!" I don't take them serious.) Basically, I think GRRM writes in these young brides not because he thinks this was common in the Middle Ages, or okay in the Middle Ages. I think this was a purposeful exaggeration of the real world to highlight how badly women are treated--now whether GRRM needed to do this, and if he did this respectfully is a different issue but I do believe that is the authorial intent.
@LikeTheProphet
Ай бұрын
I read somewhere that it was less about showing how difficult it was to be a woman in that era so much as giving us a glimpse into the moral character of the people around them. Imo, how someone views children (and whether or not how they see them is fair, normal, or appropriate) is a pretty good litmus test on whether or not someone is a decent human being. Plenty of adult characters refer to these young girls as children - in universe, they are acknowledged as children. The people who sexualize and abuse them, however, are not supposed to be seen as good or normal people. They’re almost always either extremely troubled and morally dark gray like Tyrion, or straight up morally bankrupt. Its one of the main reasons I think the Tyrells are so appealing in both the books and the show - they’re politically savvy, but at the end of the day, they talk to Sansa like she’s a person and have an interest in protecting her for her own sake, and taking their time for her to grow up a bit before she gets married. The lannisters have no problem marrying her to a man twice her age and encourage him to assault her - and Tyrion even feels bitter af that a literal child doesn’t want to fuck him. In the first book/season, when they’ll small council finds out Danaerys is pregnant, Robert wants to send an assassin to kill her, and REVELED in seeing the corpses of her niece and nephew before the first events of the story. Meanwhile, ned didn’t speak to him for 10+ years because of the child murder, and resigned as hand when Robert insisted they kill Dany, even openly saying “she’s just a child.” Just a thought!
@jurgnobs1308
Ай бұрын
@@LikeTheProphet except Ned was grooming sansa to marry as a child. even Ned and Catelyn themselves got married when they were underage. it seems more like he actually fell for the common idea that people just got married very young at the time. because hr sure ss hell had positive characters marry children, too.
@LikeTheProphet
Ай бұрын
@@jurgnobs1308betrothals since childhood were (and still are) very common among royal families, but it was always clear in the books and show that the marriage was far into the future, when both were adults - but that they wanted Sansa to have the opportunity to learn about the culture in the south and even have a chance to get to know her betrothed before then. Honestly if my own marriage were one where it was unexpected and I hadn’t ever known or met my betrothed like ned and cat’s marriage was, I would also hope for better for my own children, especially if that marriage would come with a lot of other responsibilities as queen. The lannisters were the ones getting weird about when she got her menstrual cycle, not her own family, so I don’t really see how “She was getting groomed for child marriage.”
@LikeTheProphet
Ай бұрын
@@jurgnobs1308also, Ned and cat were 33 and 35 respectively at the beginning of the events of the books - that would mean they were 18 and 20 when they got married. Still young by modern standards, but far more appropriate for marriage and certainly not “underage.”
@glanni
2 жыл бұрын
ASOIAF is very "anti-romance" by popular standards. Lemon tree and such. It's unfaithful to suddenly squeeze a impassioned romance subplot in there, especially with such an insane character as Rhaegar. Edit: Also Cat's and Ned's love is just the result of years of marriage and having a family (with Cat's vitriol towards Jon in the background btw), not a steamy romance. They were forced to marry and Cat never considered anything but doing her duty for the family, and neither did Ned. To think that as a younger person I would have wanted the cliché route too lol. Either it's different now because I'm older, or ASOIAF has just had a really big influence on my view on writing, idk.
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah agreed, I'd also like to think that GRRM understands that the world of extreme social inequality that he created doesn't allow for people to actually fall in love like they would in the classic romance sense. LOL and it's interesting that you bring up Cat and Jon, because I think my next ASOIAF video might be about that. My take on the Cat and Jon thing is more forgiving towards Cat because A. I don't think Cat was abusive towards him because she's not an abusive person in general and Ned would never allow her to be anyway, and B. the very existence of a bastard boy that Ned treats as legitimate who is around Robb's age is a literal mortal threat to Catelyn and her children, so the expectation that Cat should just take that on the chin or further legitimize Jon by being a mother to him is absurd. But even in the "loving" (by Westerosi standards) marriage between Ned and Cat, Ned has absolute power over Cat and uses that power to not only do something that she is very uncomfortable with, but that could actually get her or her children killed someday, and he completely exploits the fact that she is not in the position to say no or to do literally anything other than what he says, which sucks. And ultimately, I can't imagine that GRRM isn't cognizant of the fact that it's legit impossible for there to be true romance between people like Rhaegar and Lyanna or even like Ned and Cat because when you've set up a societal structure where one person in a couple has near-absolute power over the other on the basis of things like gender or social status, true love really can't exist.
@glanni
2 жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT I like that you're not that harsh towards Cat. It's just amusing to me at this point that Cat is demonized by some people lmao (also many people hate Sansa just because she's "basically younger Cat" in their eyes). Good point with Ned having absolute power over her, that's so true. And Cat, being a very dutiful person, would accept it any day. I understand why she hates Jon, he is the embodiment of the worst thing Ned did to her, not only the alleged cheating, but also the fact that he is a family member. And all that while she is the one to have to remain dutiful and faithful. It also highlights to her the feeling of power imbalance, without her truly understanding it from a feminist point of view. It's easy to dislike Cat. I do think that the way she treats Jon is lowkey abusive, by our modern standards. But I don't think she physically abused him. And George's take on true love and romance in this story is really putting emphasis on the power imbalance and how there is no possibility consent in that world. Women just have to put up with what they're given.
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
@@glanni Yeah it's very interesting, today is my day off from work so I'm looking through the ASOIAF material regarding Cat and Jon, and surprisingly she's even less negative towards him than I remember (at least in her mind). Like, even when she's at her most upset, she seemingly never questions Jon's likelihood of usurping her own children, even when she's considering that very obvious threat she seems to think of it in terms of Jon's future children being a threat to her own grandchildren rather than expecting Jon to potentially betray them which is actually surprisingly insightful and astute given how little she interacts with Jon. And I think that perhaps an argument could be made that her ignoring him is abusive from a modern POV, but her internal thoughts towards him don't seem to be particularly hateful aside from what she said at Bran's bedside, and Jon himself thinks that this is the first time Cat has even addressed him by name, which makes it seem like she just avoided him as much as possible (although that would still be understandably hurtful to a kid who doesn't have a mom and doesn't understand why). But again, I feel like a lot of people very intentionally ignore the fact that the more legitimate Jon seems, the more dangerous it is for everyone, and ironically a lot of fans are completely blaming Catelyn for doing what she thinks is best for her own children when she's forced into a situation that she has no control over and doesn't want to be in to begin with. I agree that the demonization of Catelyn is beyond bizarre, especially given that she is basically powerless and being forced to do a fuckton of dangerous shit that she completely disagrees with for her entire character arc. And I find it very interesting and a little troubling that a not small portion of the fandom seems to really dislike her character essentially because she sometimes disobeys the orders she's given by her political dolt of a husband and her 14-year-old son, even though her thoughts, strategies, and instincts are often way better than theirs. It's a very weird dichotomy a lot of fans will adore gender-non-conforming women like Arya and Brienne for not following the rules, but the female characters who are gender-conforming like Sansa or Cat get dragged for occasionally not following the utterly idiotic commands of the men who are supposed to own them.
@leonardostefanucci4106
2 жыл бұрын
@@glanni I mean it's not that I hate Cat or anything, but sometimes she messes things up way too many times. Like, she kidnapped Tyrion (the whole event that started the war between Starks and Lannisters) , she brings him to Lysa Arryn, she tells his husband to trust Littlefinger, she frees Jaime Lannister, (I love Jaime,but she basically freed the most Dangerous swordsman in Westeros in exchange of two girls, basing on a deal that could be very easily broken by the enemies) . I know that many people shit on Sansa for telling Cersei about Ned's plans, but she was literally an 11 year old girl at the time and with her, it's a bit more understandable, but Cat does much more bullshit than poor Sansa.
@MegaKnight2012
2 жыл бұрын
Martin does include two unions born from love in the Targaryen family at least. One was King Jaeherys and his sister-wife Alysanne, who Martin in an interview described it as pure a romance as incest can be, without having to say, 'wink-wink'. The other, King Aegon 'Egg' the Unlikely and his wife Betha Blackwood. He married her at age 20, she 19, and they chose each other because they loved each other. Sadly, because they got to choose each other, they couldn't say no when all their kids rebuked their mother's arranged marriages and instead married for love like their parents did, which led to King Aegon the Unlikely's granson, Mad Aerys, becoming king.
@DarkKing009
6 ай бұрын
Rhaegar during Robert's rebellion: I sure do require 3 Kingsguard Knights to keep a 14 year old locked in a tower when they could have been protecting my wife and kids
@zara-zq1oi
Ай бұрын
Haven’t read the books sit down.
@lauravergot9995
2 жыл бұрын
I always believed that Rhegar's melancholy came from knowing his family and the realm were doomed and that the prophecy guided him into setting the board for saving something in the future to avoid complete disaster. How can you be happy when you know your days are numbered?
@leftifornian2066
2 жыл бұрын
He was a creep who wanted young couchie
@amitupadhyay4015
Жыл бұрын
Then don't call them lovers. Lyanna is a baby factory for Rhaegar. And Rhaegar is a groomer who abandoned his wife and children.
@Li_Tobler
Жыл бұрын
^ There are only two genders 😂
@sugarpearl9781
Жыл бұрын
It was said he was a melancholy child before he discovered the prophesy. More likely it came from watching his mother be brutalized and his father descend into madness.
@rc59191
2 жыл бұрын
Rhaegar probably tricked her and filled her head with that prophecy bs.
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
I actually doubt that he filled anyone's head with prophecy BS because any remotely rational person would have thought he was out of his mind. I find the whole perspective that people would have been supportive or convinced by Rhaegar's belief in prophecies pretty laughable, because any reasonable person would have likely heard what he was saying and thought he was just another mad Targaryen. And obviously, all Starks are not the same, but given the fact that Ned so easily discounts any belief in the magical or unusual, I can't imagine that Lyanna could have met some random dude who told her that she was destined to give him a child to save the world from monsters and thought "yup that sounds right, guess I should abandon my entire life and flee to the other side of the country so you can impregnate me and I can birth our baby Jesus child alone in the desert with no medical assistance". So I think Rhaegar definitely filled her head with BS, but it was likely of a much more pedestrian and believable variety.
@pikapi6993
2 жыл бұрын
Well, it is a fantasy book and gods and magic exist in their society. Dragons used to exist. Resurrection of dead people is possible. People consult witches to tell them something about their future. Cersei believes in it, which is why she keeps trying to prevent her children's death from happening. So I think a rational person would consider this type of reality before judging Rhaegar.
@cathylanders6377
2 жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT I think that sweet rhaegar is love with sweet lyanna
@lovetobe6118
2 жыл бұрын
What is this story supposed to teach us? It's okay to abandon your wife and children? It's okay to run off with a 14 or 15 year old girl without her parents permission? This would be considered a crime now a days. And it was a crime back then. So why was this depicted in an okay light if it isn't acceptable by ancient or modern standards?
@hez859
2 жыл бұрын
For all we know Rhaegar's wife probably knew about it. He's a Targaryen and she's Dornish, cultures that are typically okay with Polyamory
@lovetobe6118
2 жыл бұрын
@@hez859 It is still not okay. It promotes behavior that is damaging to individuals. It promotes older married men running away with very young girls. It leaves children fatherless and women without honest husbands. It
@jamie_d0g978
2 жыл бұрын
We don't know absolutely anything about Ellia. Except that she is sassy and a dornish woman. I don't buy the poor wife oblivious and abandoned version of her tbh. She has to know something, she was probably closer to Rhaegar than we though.
@lovetobe6118
2 жыл бұрын
@@jamie_d0g978 still not okay for married man to run off with a 14 year old in either time period.
@MadMax-dp2bb
2 жыл бұрын
@@lovetobe6118 i mean, they changed it for the show, so the story of the books and the story of the show are two different things. Shouldn't we be happy they changed her age? Maybe we shouldnt penalize the Rhaegar of the show for what book Rhaegar did. They are not the same. 🤷♀️
@THEMightyMonarch316
2 жыл бұрын
I think if they eloped and then revealed themselves as a couple, Brandon Stark, who would have still been alive if they did that, would straight up murder him on the spot because he would have seen Rhaegar as the manipulator of his little sister that he was lol
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
LOL and oh boy wouldn't I be sad to see Rhaegar go.
@THEMightyMonarch316
2 жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT Especially if he had the stupid singer bravado of just showing up to Winterfell like "I'm the Prince TWP what are you gonna do about it ?", beaten bloody by Brandon an beheaded within the hour lol
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
@@THEMightyMonarch316 And even if he didn't know it he would have saved the whole damn country a lot of mess.
@THEMightyMonarch316
2 жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT Brandon's rage would have been the unsung hero of Westeros, I'm good with that
@MegaKnight2012
2 жыл бұрын
It's quite likely them being married was added to the show. One of the showrunners wrote the screenplay for Troy, a movie romanticizing Paris and Helen, whose romance destroys Troy and Paris' family, including his brother Hector, and despite the original Illiad depicting Helen as being sick of Paris. Martin could easily have based Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna after Paris and Helen, especially seeing how much war and death resulted from it, and since D. Benioff already romanticized Paris and Helen, why not romanticize Matin's variation? Also, Helen lost an older brother when Theseus tried to abduct her as a child, so there's that other connection with Helen and Lyanna, since their abductions lead to fratricide.
@anl10799
2 жыл бұрын
I think another point was that Lyanna didn’t want Robert because he had already had a bastard but Rhaegar already had true born children, he actively broke his vow to Elia to be with Lyanna, Robert’s fatherhood came before his marriage before he owed Lyanna any loyalty and before he made any vow. So ultimately the relationship with Rhaeger would have been an even worse example of her husband “not being able to keep to one bed”
@SoilToSoul
2 жыл бұрын
I've heard it said the reason Lyanna didnt do anything to stop any of the craziness that went down while she was in the tower was because of the vastness of the land in westeros. Unlike the show, in the books you don't get from one place to another in a couple of days, but rather in weeks or months. So, by the time they realized what had happened or was happening, it was too late to get messages to everyone to stop it. That being said, I really liked your video, well thought out and definitely gives a different perspective than the popular one that goes around!
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks! And I could understand that for a good amount of time, but Lyanna had the time to have a freaking baby in the time that she was missing, so the notion that she didn't even send a raven to Ned and was isolated and alone in the desert with a bunch of Targaryen loyalist dudes and didn't even have a maester just does not say "this person is willingly doing this" to me. And I know I might be reading into things too much, but just having Lyanna in Dorne seems like such a scumbag move on Rhaegar's part, like it seems as if he's A. taking advantage of the fact that Elia and his own children are hostages in King's Landing and is putting Lyanna there because it's the only kingdom he knows can't turn on him, and B. he's also putting Lyanna in a place where she has absolutely no one and not even any means of escape. LOL and I mean not to mention, nobody who takes an underage girl to the other side of the country without her family's knowledge or consent is doing that for non-creep reasons. And also, given what we know about Lyanna and her generally aggressive and proactive behavior (i.e. chasing away a bunch of dudes who were beating Howland up because "that's her father's man"), it's hard for me to imagine her father and brother getting killed and Ned going to war and her just saying "well bummer but I guess it's too late to do anything about it." I feel like even if the war had begun, she would have done something to intervene if she could have, and I can't imagine her being okay with legions of her father's men marching to their deaths based on a misunderstanding that she partially created. I mean clearly GRRM has intentionally obscured a lot of the Lyanna and Rhaegar storyline and their characterizations in general, but to me, this whole situation just does not jive with the idea of two people in love.
@rosesweetcharlotte
2 жыл бұрын
I'm not really sure what she was supposed to do. Not only is the world vast, but she was pregnant or trying to get pregnant. Had she revealed herself, she would have been a target from all sides
@evoke97
2 жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT talking about 'underage girls' in the game of thrones world lol, leave your real world morals out of this fantasy world
@OcarinaSapphr-
2 жыл бұрын
I could be wrong, but I think Jaime had a memory of Rhaegar saying- in a roundabout way- that he should have deposed his father, but that he essentially set his path from his choice- & there was nothing more to be done. It’s a bit difficult to see a good guy in someone who knew who & what his father was, had become the newest target of his paranoia, after Tywin’s resignation- was one of the few people who were in a position to make a difference that would have been very unlikely to result in a war (how many people would _actually_ have been willing to commit to war, to keep Aerys in power, had Rhaegar {already his heir, & immensely popular} put the question out there?)- & could easily frame his usurpation of his father in a positive manner. It’s essentially a selfish & ultimately destructive choice, from someone who doesn’t want to have to explain themselves, or be questioned- a trait most of the Targaryens inherited, like some kind of birthright...
@rosesweetcharlotte
2 жыл бұрын
I mean, Aerys was still his father. I think Rhaegar simply underestimated how insane he was.
@arawn1061
Жыл бұрын
@@rosesweetcharlotte how would he do that?
@hez859
Жыл бұрын
Meh..There is a theory the tourney at Harrenhal was where Rhaegar was already laying the groundwork for his eventual coup
@redrackham6812
11 ай бұрын
Exactly. If Lyanna was a willing participant in all this, why was she incommunicado the whole time? Why was she under heavy guard in an isolated fortress in the mountains, and why did those guards try to prevent her own brother from coming to see her? Why did Rhaegar select as her guards men who were fanatically loyal, but whom he also needed protecting him in battle or otherwise helping with the war effort? That is strong circumstantial evidence that Lyanna was a prisoner. And I don't have much difficulty believing, by the way, that Rhaegar might have just abducted Lyanna by force. You said it yourself: he was obsessed with prophecy and his supposed role in it. Would he really have let the fact that Lyanna had no interest in playing the part he had assigned her stop him? Or would he just force her? And why wouldn't Lyanna say no? She didn't want to marry Robert because she thought he would be disloyal. But she'll be mistress (or number two wife, assuming you think that Rhaegar could have made such a marriage stick) to a married man who has two children already? Everything we know suggests that Robert was right all along: Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, imprisoned her, and forced himself on her to produce the third heir he thought he needed for the prophecy. That is why she disappeared without leaving so much as a note; that is why she never tried to contact her family during the war, and that is why the men guarding her tried to kill her brother when he came to bring her home.
@kamimurakaori21
2 жыл бұрын
I love my fellows Rhaegar haters
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
Haha yes, it's a stiff competition but Rhaegar might just be my least favorite character in all of ASOIAF, which is an accomplishment in its own right.
@DarkKing009
6 ай бұрын
Ahh yes, the Lyanna logic, Robert sleeps around and she hates that, so why not become the side piece to the married crown prince, father of two. A teenage girl could not willingly leave with a married man without it being considered kidnapping.
@marcmarc4776
2 жыл бұрын
George asked D&D who Jon's parents were. They answered correctly. They never said what the correct answer was, D&D just gave us a L+R=J storyline and we assumed that was the correct answer D&D gave.
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
I'm assuming that R+L=J is correct along with many of the other ending twists and plot points simply because when D&D have done things that George doesn't like or disagrees with like omitting Lady Stoneheart or having Sansa marry Ramsay, he has pretty directly stated that they effed up. I somewhat enjoy the theory of Ned and Ashara, but aside from Lyanna and Rhaegar being the plotline in GoT, I just feel like it fits much more thematically with Jon's arc (for instance, I think the irony of Jon hating being Ned's bastard and then finding out his true parentage and realizing that being Ned's bastard is far better than being the trueborn "heir to the throne" makes a lot of sense).
@marcmarc4776
2 жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT yeah, i believe the story is R+L=J...I just don't like it and wish it was something else we haven't already had in a story. We have the same story in Star Wars, Harry Potter, LotR, Willow, and every other tale about a secret prince that saves the world.
@anotherpawn
2 жыл бұрын
@@stephaniesnitily1734 I believe that GRRM planned on finishing the books before the series finished so the twist wouldn't be given away before the end of the series. He just wasn't expecting a 10-year hiatus and the series passing him.
@anotherpawn
2 жыл бұрын
@@marcmarc4776 About R+L=J George has been pretty stubborn about always flipping tropes on the head so I don't believe that he'll just go with the classic "hero that saves everyone with a flaming sword". I believe that it will be some kind of subversion that makes sense within the narrative and involves a lot more factors than being born the right person. Bran is probably going to end up on the throne (like in the show) so I doubt that Jon will get the whole king savior thing. Jon definitely has a destiny, but he is born and raised a Stark and he'll continue to be a Stark. The basicness of R+L=J comes from the giant hiatus. Had he not fallen into a slump, the books would have been done long ago and a lot of people would have missed the twist until the reveal. We have just had time to come up with so complicated theories that many of the right ones seem basic. I also doubt that D&D would reject the true ending since they were adamant about following threads that didn't make sense within the show (King Bran, Daenerys burning King's landing, etc.). About "secret prince savior": How is LOTR the secret prince savior? I guess we have Aragorn who does the classic thing (even though we are told that he is the king from like halfway through book 1 so it isn't even a secret) but the true saviors are the four hobbits. They all impact the world as much as Aragorn (Frodo carries the ring, Sam carries Frodo, Merry helps Eowyn kill the witch king, and Pippin saves Faramir and Gondor) and the whole point is that a tiny, unremarkable person can make a difference. Harry Potter too. Harry isn't a secret prince, it's made clear from the beginning that he is special and by the end we find out that he isn't special at all. The only reason why he is considered special is because Voldemort believed a prophecy and thus caused it to be self-fulfilling, which means that he himself made Harry special by trying to kill him. Anyone could be Harry if their mother sacrificed themselves for them since Voldermort's soul would rebound into their body. Voldermort created his own chosen one because he was afraid of a chosen one destroying him. Thus, Harry is the chosen one in the sense that Voldermort himself made it so that Harry would kill him by ruining his life (killing his parents and giving him a motivation to fight against him). Star Wars: Luke is Darth Vader's son but in the end, he isn't the savior secret prince. We initially believe that he is the chosen one that is supposed to kill the sith but the moment that he is revealed to be a secret prince (in the sense that he is the secret son of the villain) he stops being the savior. He refuses to kill the evil people which means that he refuses his destiny of killing the sith. His main defining trait is his compassion so his true role becomes to redeem the savior (Vader) so that he can fullfill his destiny. See how one trope can be used in three very different, creative ways. Just because a twist has been done many times, doesn't mean that it can't be done well by someone else putting their own spin on things and ASOIAF is known for taking basic plot points and uniquely doing them. It seems like you have a problem with a chosen one in general and that is okay, everyone has different tastes. But please give the story a chance before you judge it :)
@tereza1959
Жыл бұрын
I think the whole point about Jon Snow is that he is still a bastard, Rhaegar never annuled his marriage to Elia, and his marriage to Lyanna wasn't official, which means Jon wouldn't be legitimate even if Rhaegar was still alive and inherited the iron throne
@Shenanakins
Жыл бұрын
the thing that everyone seems to ignore about rhaegar is that barristan hints that the only reason Rhaegar needed Lyanna was because Elia's health was poor. Dany asks "how could he do that? did the dornish woman treat him so ill?" and Barristan says "its not for us to say what was in rhaegars heart but Elia was good and gracious though her health was ever so delicate." Gee, i wonder what George is trying to say about what rhaegar's reasons were. thats not barristan speaking. thats george. Rhaegar did not love lyanna. if Elia had been able to give him another child he wouldn't have looked twice at another woman. frankly, it doesnt seem like he was particularly interested in sex or love. it sounds like Elia's great flaw had nothing to do with their incompatibility or his desire for true love but rather her inability to fulfill his batshit crazy prophesy by giving him a third child.
@DarkKing009
6 ай бұрын
If Lyanna Stark was a willing participant in Rhaegar's unspeakably dumb act for the sake of some vague-ass prophecy. And if she was average intelligent knowing that her father and brother would interpret this as a form of kidnapping and she did nothing about it that would make her evil. A teenage girl could not willingly leave with a married man without it being considered kidnapping. She would be a victim or a villain.
@user-elyfinwe
Жыл бұрын
Even if he 'loved' her it doesn't change the fact she was a teenage girl and he was a grown man with 2 children and a wife already. Their entire story, whether out of love or kidnapping, was messed up.
@sECUREij
Жыл бұрын
when the helathiest relasionship is literally one brother marrying the other future wife out of necessity then you know love and true love probaly isnt factoring in much in grmm storyline
@Emma88178
Жыл бұрын
Naming Jon "Aegon" was completely insulting to Elia, since Rhaegar and Elia already had a son named Aegon, along with their daughter Rhaenys. The show just made it a complete slap in the face toward Elia and her children. Especially with making them be "de-legitimized" by Rhaegar's annulment.
@Dell-ol6hb
2 жыл бұрын
I always disliked how they portrayed it in GOT, like my god Lyanna was like 14-15 when Rhaegar, a 22-year-old, kidnapped her and isolated her from her family, even if she was on board with his delusional plan (which all evidence points to not being the case) she was a child! Their "relationship" is not at all consensual and it's very weird to portray it as such.
@kernalbert4939
2 жыл бұрын
Please don't be stupid. There are six year olds in some parts of the world who are responsible for cooking for their four year old siblings. Your standard is not universal.
@diddles3383
2 жыл бұрын
@@kernalbert4939 nonce alert! I repeat, nonce alert!
@magiv4205
2 жыл бұрын
@@kernalbert4939 That is... a very messed up comparison to make. So, just because some children are forcibly parentified (a form of abuse btw) at an incredibly young age, that then makes the sexual exploitation of minors ok? HUH? Both those things are messed up regardless of the place or time the happen, and you seemingly supporting them says alot more about you than about the morality of said abuse.
@Sellot91
2 жыл бұрын
Daenerys was 13 when she married Khal Drogo but I bet you still love that guy.
@sigmalpha_testostronewolf
2 жыл бұрын
@@Sellot91 Why do you assume that she likes a rapist? Based on what? It’s weird how asoiaf fans go out of their way to defend rapists
@JetsfanMrT
2 жыл бұрын
One possible counterpoint though I largely agree with this interpretation... It would fit George's thematic anti-romance to portray true love as destructive and doomed too. Like even if you have a perfect passionate love it only brings death in the end. Just a thought
@paganpines
Жыл бұрын
That baby really nailed Kit Harington's expression.
@MegaKnight2012
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks so much for putting out this video! Remember, one of the major showrunners also wrote the movie Troy, which depicted Paris and Helen as a beautiful romance despite the fact that in the Iliad, Helen is sick of Paris, and Paris' abducting Helen led to his death as well as his family and his entire city. Hey, just like Rhaegar. Now we know which epic Martin was patterning the dooming abduction-romance of Rhaegar and Lyanna off of, but which others romanticize. Maybe Rhaegar convinced her with deception and appealing to Lyanna's desire to be a hero or contribute to heroism, so Lyanna went willingly but regretted it by the time Rhaegar left her in Dorne and wanted to leave. It's also likely that Lyanna's ancestors had something to do with being the Last Hero who ended the Long Night whilst Rhaegar's ancestors, the Bloodstone Emperor of the Dawn Empire, brought about the Long Night, so maybe he convinced her that their union would somehow resolve the millennia old conflict. There's also a theory that Houses Dayne and Hightower have major roles to play, since they seem to bear traits of ancient dragon-lords like Valyrians but more likely the older dragon lords of the Dawn Empire, and two of the three Kingsguard guarding Lyanna were from those two Houses. It's also interesting that in interviews, Martin refers to Jon Snow as a bastard, not like how the show's writers depict Jon as a legitimate heir, which they might have done to simply further Dany's madness, as well as further romanticize the two like done in Troy (which also had a doomed romance between Achilles and Briseis despite him having little to no affection for her in the Illiad. Heck, that movie's Achilles and Briseis echo the show's Rhaegar and Briseis, a glorious older prince who abducts a woman who then falls in love with him, dying for her). Edit: There's another story that Benioff wrote the screenplay for that has a manipulative relationship framed as tragic and romantic, X-Men Origins Wolverine, with Logan and Kayla Silverfox.
@miguelcondadoolivar5149
4 ай бұрын
The difference between Rhaegar and Paris is that Rhaegar at least believed his own madness and was willing to back it with personal action and sacrifice.
@adapienkowska2605
2 жыл бұрын
I've noticed there are no precise dates about the events leading and during the rebellion. But the fisherman daughter who help Ned to go to the North is rumoured to be a mother of Jon Snow. There is a chance that Rhaegar just seduced Lyanna, and she went with him willingly because she was afraid of coming back home with the bastard child. No great love, just 23 years old man manipulating 15 years old girl.
@RevealTheStyle
Жыл бұрын
This “love story” sounds like a narcissistic abuse on a continental scale relationship. Makes Robert’s insatiable fury at least understandable.
@Jelperman
2 жыл бұрын
A few thoughts: Romeo & Juliet wasn't a great romance either. It's a story where a young man preys on a teenage girl and kills one of her relatives who gets in the way. Because they are so much in love (even though it's a bad idea) both die horribly and cause tremendous grief to both their families. Yeah, it's very much like Rhaegar & Lyanna. Or Padme and Anakin in Star Wars. If Lyanna was headstrong and wanted nothing to do with the typical role of noble females, she might just run off with a brooding prince who by all accounts was very different from the typical nobleman, let along Targaryen. As for his previous marriage, she might have demanded that he divorce his wife before she'd agree to marry him. She might be willing to defy her family to marry a prince, but not to be his mistress. When Lyanna describes love as not changing someone's nature, she's referring to Robert being a rake. As for why Lyanna went crazy for Rhaegar (and he for her), who knows? The point is that two people falling head-over-heels for each other and marrying impulsively in secret often leads to disaster, whether in real life (Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville) or in fiction (Robb & Talisa/Jeyne, Anakin & Padme, Romeo & Juliet, Lyanna & Rhaegar).
@nukaguyquantum4185
2 жыл бұрын
@@rouskeycarpel1436 They know nothing of love they only met each other for only a few days before they got married and committed suicide and they were kids so poor example
@reihino6347
2 жыл бұрын
“Young man preying on a teenage girl” he was 16
@ToqTheWise
2 жыл бұрын
Dude they were three years apart. That's like saying I preyed upon my ex-girlfriend because she was 17 and I was 19. Nah we were just stupid kids that made really dumb decisions because our brains weren't fully developed.
@MegaKnight2012
2 жыл бұрын
Romeo & Juliet actually is a romance and that's why it's such a tragedy. When R & J's lines that they share are combined, they form a romantic sonnet, which Shakespeare wrote lots of, making them two halves of a whole. Father Lawrence marries them because although he sees Romeo as immature, he believes this impetuous young love will work as a political marriage to unite the two houses, when no diplomatic meetings would even dream of arranging it. Even when Romeo sneaks into the Capulet House party, Lord Capulet will not let Tybalt fight Romeo Montague since although Lord Capulet knows its a disguised Montague, he believes in maintaining sacred hospitality. This might be a hint that if he found out Romeo had married his daughter, Lord Capulet would adhere to societal ideals of generosity and as he welcomed Romeo at his party, he'd welcome him as his son. What makes R&J's love a tragedy is fear. When Romeo meets Tybalt after his wedding, he could just say, "What ho, cousin, for cousin you are to my new wife and thereby cousin to me", but he doesn't and when Tybalt kills Romeo's best bud, Romeo, true to his impetuous nature, takes revenge. Then, after Juliet is truly married to Romeo, her fear keeps her from telling her parents as does the Nurse's fear, which even gets her to counsel Juliet to commit the sin of adultery. Fr Lawrence could tell the families, but even he fears the retribution now so he helps hide the marriage. Even one of Fr Lawrence's last lines is about how scared he is. If they didn't die, this would be like one of Shakespeare's comedies, like in The Merry Wives of Windsor that has a couple get married in secret and when they reveal themselves to their parents, the parents concede to their decision. Given how committed Romeo and Juliet are to each other, it easily could have been a great romance, as it was expected to stay committed to whom one married, but instead becomes a great tragedy because the same impetuous youthful nature that led them to fall so quickly into love also leads them to their doom. Rhaegar and Lyanna seems more akin to Paris and Helen of Troy. An abduction that leads to the deaths of their families and the end of a kingdom. When the Illiad starts, Helen is absolutely sick of Paris but is still stuck in a fortress/tower. Helen is also recorded in some traditions as being the daughter of Nemesis, an unstoppable goddess of divine vengeance. Like Helen, Lyanna might be descended from an ancestral nemesis of House Targaryen, maybe even the Night King (Martin's long gone one, not the one in the show). It's quite likely that Targaryens are descended from the Bloodstone Emperor, who brought about the Long Night, or Bloodstone's older sister, Amethyst Empress, who Dany dreams of her ancestors with corresponding eyes to Amethyst and other Dawn Emperors. Meanwhile, the Starks could easily be descended from The Last Hero, Eldric Shadowchaser (has a rather Starkish name). Rhaegar might have found some history on that in all his reading and convinced her they needed to join to breed a hero to fix the conflicting responsibilities of their individual Houses' legacies. The Starks Night King ancestry could make them true Kings of Winters, as opposed to Targaryen's heritage of Fire, making Jon Snow the perfect Son of Ice and Fire. Another way of writing Jon Snow is 'Jack Frost'. Lyanna would have been brought up on Old Nan's tales of the Long Night and she likely would have wanted to help fight Winter's Coming, maybe hoping to be a warrior mother, like original Nymeria, to help train her son. She also might have warged a dream on the Isle of Face during the Tourney at Harrenhall. Rhaegar likely convinced Lyanna that Elia had died in her recent childbirth, given her first had gone so poorly and she might have been cloistered in Dragonstone where few could know whether Elia lived or died, leaving Rhaegar a widow free to marry Lyanna, similar to how Edward IV tricks Elizabeth to marry him in the White Queen tv show, offering to make Lyanna a White Queen. Martin has cited Philippa Gregory's books as influencing his, and Gregory did write The White Queen. Elia Martell might have been the one who convinced Rhaegar to take another lover, like Aphrodite getting Paris to go after Helen. Elia might have believed in the Azhor Ahai prophecy, since Dorne has R'hlorr temples, and Dornish are looser about multiple lovers as well as holding bastards in higher esteem than elsewhere in the Seven Kingdoms. Elia might have wanted someone else to carry Rhaegar's prophecy babies so she could live to continue being there for her own babies and she convinced Rhaegar a bastard child would service the Azhor Ahai prophecy just as well. Elia might have scoped out the highborn lady candidates at the Harrenhall Tourney and told Rhaegar to pick Lyanna. Elia could have even talked to Lyanna and planted ideas in her head that Rhaegar could later use to get her. There might be some clues in Elia's name. 'Martell' can mean 'forceful person'. 'Elia' means 'Yahweh is God' whilst 'Lyanna' means 'field of God', a place for God to plant seed. 'Jon' means 'favored by God', so Jon Snow might owe his existence to Elia Martell.
@napoleonbonaparte7529
Жыл бұрын
Romeo's age is never stated in the text so idk where y'all are getting that he was "16" or a "young man"
@DavidWesley
2 жыл бұрын
Great insights as always. There is definitely a power imbalance, even if Lyanna was madly in love with Rhaegar. It seems unlikely that he would lead off with revealing the prophecy (awkward first date conversation to be sure), but I imagine he told her at some point. Question is, did she believe it?
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
I highly doubt she would have believed it, I mean Rhaegar comes from a family that is known for going mad so if he straight up told her that the apocalypse was coming and his babies needed to save the world I think any normal person would have presumed that he just lost it.
@DavidWesley
2 жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT perhaps. But the circumstances of his birth at Summerhall, and the importance of his particular family line in the woods witch’s prophecy might carry some weight.
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
I mean it's not impossible, but again, Summerhall and the PTWP prophecy are things that the Targaryens might think make them special and chosen, but that I think most other people would look at as an indication that they're batshit crazy blowhards. Like, if a woods witch told Ned that the PTWP would come from Robb and Sansa's bloodline, there is a 0% chance he would have forced them to marry and a near 100% chance that he would have written the witch off as some batty old kook, so unless Rhaegar just managed to convince Lyanna because she was young enough to be fooled by his egomania and obsession with prophecy I don't see her believing in it.
@msaoichan
2 жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT In the world of A Song of Ice and Fire, both wiser and stupider people than Rhaegar had been taken in by prophesy and met their fates because of it. Especially because we're dealing with a world where magic appears to be a fundamental power, albeit a dormant and poorly understood one. But it is starting to awake again, which is not necessarily a good thing, if a very particular Greyjoy brother has his way... And we're also dealing with a world where prophesy at the very least appears to have the power to make itself self-fulfilling. If such a thing was able to create that much of a shift in Rhaegar, even in his youth, what's to say it could not do the exact same to Lyanna?
@MegaKnight2012
2 жыл бұрын
Lyanna might have bought into Old Nan's tales of the Long Night maybe even hearing that the Starks were descended from the Night King (Martin's long gone book Night King, not the one in the show). Rhaegar seems to have picked up or met Lyanna around the Isle of Faces, where she might have been looking thanks to Nan's stories about the Green Men and found something about her family's past or future, thanks to Warging. Nan might have unintentionally contributed to Lyanna's tragedy. Lyanna might have been such a tomboy, wanting to be a new martial hero, like the ones Ned and Robb played as in Winterfell. When Rhaegar came to her, he might have researched her heritage and how their families likely had parts to play in the original long night, he descended from the Bloodstone Emperor who caused the Long Night and her descended from The Last Hero who ended it, as well as Stark's possibly descended from the Night King, their union likely helping to combat Winter's Coming, like her family motto kept reminding her. She might have been seduced by the promise of being a hero to help combat the Long Night, Rhaegar appealing to her romantic and adventurous side. It can be through appealing to ASOIAF characters' romantic sides that gets them stuck in tragedy. After Rhaegar got her convinced, maybe even faked a marriage ceremony, he spirited her away and the Kingsguard kept her there in case she changed her mind, like how Helen is sick of Paris in The Illiad but she can't leave. Martin has cited the works of Phillipa Gregory as influencing his works. Gregory wrote multiple books around the War of the Roses. In 'The White Queen', King Henry IV secretly marries Lady Elizabeth Grey, a woman of much lower social status. In the show based on the book, Henry marries her after she rebuffs his sexual advances and it seems he hires a fake priest for the ceremony, though then declares her as his queen in court. Lyanna is descended from the Stark Kings so that could make her a 'White Queen' of sorts.
@jham7411
2 жыл бұрын
Their stupidity led to thousands upon thousands (perhaps millions) of people to die. Both in the Rebellion and in Danaerys’ conquest. Not to mention the end of a dynasty I roll my eyes any time those 2 characters are reflected on with any sort of reverence.
@cristinademartini1284
Жыл бұрын
First ones being Rickard and Brandon Stark, her family. Gosh, how much i hate Rhaegar and Lyanna.
@cosmicriptid
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah I cannot imagine Lyanna just deciding this love affair was worth abandoning her family and plunging the entire continent into civil war
@Elliot226
Жыл бұрын
I keep coming back to this video. I doubt we'll ever get real answers from George (then again he loves spinoffs and prequels more than finishing the series so never say never!) but I really love this theory. It is fascinating and definitely not a point I'd heard until your video, and I can't get it out of my head. Sure maybe it isn't 100% right, but I actually prefer it to (what I consider) a stupid love story. Your theory makes more sense and fits the world better, especially for these specific characters. Thanks for your videos and theories and not being afraid of the fandom to say your piece. Between you and Kevin Pendragon, I'm really pleased with the new counterpoint/assertive but unapologetic theories that aren't as wild or out there as some other channels do (no hate to them, they still work hard to make fun videos and I also enjoy them, they're just easily disproven for the most part)
@HillsAliveYT
Жыл бұрын
Thanks so much! Honestly I put off making content for a while specifically because I was worried about posting unpopular ideas so it’s nice to hear.
@Elliot226
Жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT Obviously always take care of yourself first, but I hope you continue to share your thoughts, ideas, and theories with us! I'm always excited when I see you've posted a new video to hear your thoughts on a topic/character. But I definitely understand going against the seemingly agreed upon narrative in the fandom can be intimidating. Still, I hope by doing it you find more of us that either also agree with your ideas, are open to hearing them, or even enjoy having a nice back and forth without being terrible about it (discussions and debates can be so much fun and not toxic! But the internet really just seems to hate that kind of thing for the most part lol). However you have the most fun with your channel, I'm looking forward to what you do next!
@berilsevvalbekret772
2 жыл бұрын
A 'steamy romance' is not love its sexual chemistry and/or passion. Love, genuine love is something you cultivate like Cat and Ned or between Oberyn and his paramour. While Ned has almost absolute power over Cat and I think in 2 instances uses it on her, he most of the time absolutely does not. He listens to her , respects her and her opinions and considers her ideas equally as his. While the power inbalance between sex is so fucked up especially by our standards by the normal of ASOIAF universe it is true love between Cat and Ned.
@maylynbayani
Жыл бұрын
Lyanna would be batshit crazy to pick Rhaegar over her family.
@Anna-vd7hu
2 жыл бұрын
Rhaegar is basically a Rorschach test of a character XD Just enough plot points for you to draw any constellation you want
@laurelsilberman5705
6 ай бұрын
Oh no oh god it’s so bad when you think about it!! Agh!! I just finished all the books a few weeks ago and am lore/interpretation bingeing. Nooooooo Rhaegar is a creep! And furthermore the 2024 calendar that JUST came out and has rhaegar and lyanna on the isle of faces on the cover, with her looking very innocent and carefree and him looking at her sadly from afar. I had always kinda hoped she went with him because he told her some version of his truth, as sad and self-absorbed as it may have been, which was that they needed to be together and make a child to stop something terrible from happening; he loved Elia and the maesters said she would die if she bore another child, and though he loved her, he loved the continued existence of Westeros more. But like you said, why would she need to be kept and guarded if she wanted to be there? I think she was a little bit trying not to marry Robert, and a little bit believed whatever weird prophetic nonsense rhaegar told her, but didn’t fully comprehend their actions would tear the kingdom apart as much as it would have any hope of protecting it from the long night. Prophecy is messy and terrible and almost always interpreted wrong.
@tsuritsa3105
2 жыл бұрын
I've always doubted it was some grand romance. I think it suits Rhaegar's friends, family and apologists to think so. I've also always doubted it was the main force that Robert Baratheon believed. Manipulation or blackmail seems more likely - which is not to say that Robert's interpretation doesn't come closer to the truth than those who try to justify Rhaegar's actions; it does, it just doesn't capture what I think is most likely. We can also look at the history of the dragon dreams to get a sense of what happened. Rhaegar had the dragon dreams and like many of his ancestors he believed he could interpret them. But that doesn't precisely have a history of working out well for the Targaryens. The dragon dreams have caused them far more harm than good, to the point at which if I were them I'd start asking questions about where they came from and what they were meant to do. Robert's Rebellion resulting from Rhaegar's taking Lyanna due to his dreams is not an exception; it's in line for the kinds of things that happen when the Targaryens try to force reality to conform to their interpretation of the dreams. Falling in love plays no part in that; Rhaegar saw what he thought was the solution to his "third head of the dragon" problem and he moved to secure it by some unknown means. The idea that he would have told Lyanna and gotten her to agree is silly on the face of it. What little we know of her is as a more practical, if young, girl. And surely, if she were given a chance to think it through, she would have sought council with her brother (I mean Brandon more than Ned, irrc they were close). Everything about that time is hard to parse, but I don't except we'll find some tragic romance at the center of it.
@TheGoodLuc
Жыл бұрын
It would be very interesting if Robert's interpretation was actually closest to truth.
@poenpotzu2865
Жыл бұрын
@@TheGoodLucthat is good narrative trick the one framed as the least knowing and fail to see what Lyanna truly was and wanted knew what actually happened to her
@ukotoa1639
2 жыл бұрын
I despise everything about the R+L Lyanna’s death broke Robert he loved her and never got over her and that hurts me so much he said it himself “Someone took her away from me, and seven kingdoms could fill the hole she left behind.” Every time he mentions her he’s holding back tears and every time he thinks about a Targaryen his rage flares. And even ignoring what it did to Robert her brother and father are DEAD because of them Eilla Martel and her children are dead because of them. D&D are idiots
@MegaKnight2012
2 жыл бұрын
One half of D&D romanticized Paris and Helen in the movie Troy, their romance destroying Paris' family and kingdom, including his brother, Hector
@cristinademartini1284
Жыл бұрын
Not to mention that her father and older brother died for their "love". And Elia Martell...uhg, please don't get me started for her, for i'm still sad and bitter above her fate and her children's
@VelkanKiador
Жыл бұрын
I have kinda come to hate the whole R+L=J debacle, and wish they had kept Jon as Ned Starks bastard.
@heartlesslove9084
Жыл бұрын
He is still Ned's bastard in books
@theprimo100
Жыл бұрын
But he never was intended t be...
@CatotheE
Жыл бұрын
Now that, would be a great twist.
@gameinspection4999
2 жыл бұрын
Something else that doesn't line up. Why didn't rhaegar himself say anything to barristan or ned on the battlefield. Typically before battle people can discuss terms and what not but from what we know rhaegar never said anything to ned at the trident. Also something else to consider. Lyanna didn't run off with rhaegar at Winterfell. She was abducted when she was on her way to Riverrun. Meaning she wasn't alone when that happened and it's very unlikely the people with her just saw her get captured and didn't try to stop it. Which also means rheagar and his kings guard probably killed them
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah that's an interesting point about the Trident, Rhaegar could have at least done SOMETHING to try to stop things from becoming a bloodbath or tried to explain what was going on with Lyanna if she had been with him willingly at that point, so the fact that he just decided to go to war against people who were at least partially rebelling in her name is very telling. Obviously things had escalated far beyond Lyanna's absence at that point, but again, if Lyanna was his willing wife then that could have been used to ameliorate the situation at least a little.
@rosesweetcharlotte
2 жыл бұрын
Would anyone have believed anything Rhaegar said?
@frostbite2179
2 жыл бұрын
You people just have a huge hate Boner for Rhaegar without any substantial evidence
@ihatepower4580
2 жыл бұрын
He never met ned, he was killed in the battle of trident before he could see ned.
@sipliza6568
Жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT the fact that you agree leaves me speechless. You completely ignore tons of nuances of the battle and the whole story. Few of the many: Reagar died from Robert's hand, and when Ned came to the place, the prince was already dead. Later, we learn from Daenarys' vision that he whispered 'woman's name' before falling on the ground.
@carlrood4457
2 жыл бұрын
I do like the theory that they never intended to "run off", at least not yet. It was supposed to be a meeting or rendezvous of some sort. However, someone saw them and put it in Brandon's head that she was kidnapped.
@brianm7287
2 жыл бұрын
GRRM aged a lot of the characters up in the series because he admitted to making them too young, even for non-sexual reasons. His biggest aging regret was making Robb a teenager. Making Lyanna older to give her more of a sense of agency (think knight of the laughing tree) makes perfect sense.
@EmoBearRights
Жыл бұрын
I think that Lyanna running off with Rhaegar is about his obseesion with prophesy which it is mentioned he does share with him s existing wife. I think the liason between Lyanna and Rhaegar is a negiociation - she wants a way out of being married to Robert and sees this as a way. It isnt just Robert's cheating that she doesn't like i think a woman can overlook that if she sees other qualities in someone especially if this is what her family wants but its the drinking, crudeness and love of violence too. Thackeray loved the wife of a friend of his - the friend was described as a great friend but a bad husband. Rhaegar has his faults but he's thoughtful. Its also possible that this was meant to be done in secret and then presented as fait accompli but Littlefinger revealed it in order to get Ned's brother killed in revenge for or to acquire Catelyn. I get the disapproval but i think in this case you're overlooking a few things.
@SeptaShaenasSapphires
2 жыл бұрын
“The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle”... Rhaegar sees Lyanna ride in the tourney and knows she has the other dragon x 🧬 he needs. He may even be attracted to her sense of justice because of the defense of the Cronnogman. So he woos her with song, maybe about a forced marriage (that they are both victims of he will tell her later). She is a sentimental type and maybe a little different from Arya in that regard. She doesn’t reject love, just she knows Robert’s love, no matter how strong, can’t overcome his nature. Rhaegar says to her that his infidelity is different. “Look, I gave you the flower in front of everyone, this won’t be some teenage tryst.” Bow chicka wow wow!
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
LOL yeah as a certified Rhaegar hater, my honest assumption is that he was "attracted" to Lyanna because she in some way fed into his belief that he was the most important person on the planet, and if Lyanna was Arya-ish in terms of impulsiveness then she might have been convinced by him until later realizing that he was full of shit (and that whole dynamic of being drawn in by someone that they ultimately realize is full of shit is yet another theme of the Stark children).
@jorgebersabe293
2 жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT The reason why Rhaegar/Lyanna is popular is because it's wish fullfillment: The classical fantasy of an average girl getting swept by a handsome guy, whom she believes she can "change" him with the power of love or more accurately with the power of her vagina.
@madgepickles
Жыл бұрын
Yeah I always thought that was sketchy. Lyanna didn't seem like someone who would risk the safety of her family and the realm for love in that way, but even more: Ned never showed any anger or disappointment in Lyanna, he honored her and made a sculpture of her in the crypts. If she had willingly gone off with Rhaegar, the honorable Ned would have AT LEAST had some inner thoughts about her being selfish and short sighted about the ramifications of her actions. It caused the death of their father and brother and obviously the breaking of the realm. BFD that he wouldn't have just shrugged and said seems reasonable.
@thevelkelp2179
2 ай бұрын
He does say that her "wolf blood" is the reason she died "before her time". Ned also never expressed any anger or resentment towards Rhaegar which he 100% would feel about someone kidnapping his sister. I believe they both took the risk for the prophecy not for love.
@desireefarris6480
2 жыл бұрын
The only way Lyanna and Rhaegar love could work is if he convinces her of the Prophecy. I don't see how he could do that as Lyanna was brought up with the old Gods. I admit that my first reaction was the typical R+L=J but I don't trust it now a decade + on. She knew that Robert loved her, she may even have loved him, but it was not enough as you rightly point out. And nobody has given an adequate explanation of why Rhaegar chose Lyanna Stark to begin with. I mean even if the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Lyanna that alone is enough for Rhaegar to fall madly in love and want to have a prophecy baby with her? I do think it was interesting that Rhaegar was being pushed to overthrow his father. Some theories suggest that the Tourney wss his attempt to do so. .so what? He got distracted? Lyanna was so beautiful that he had to put his coup on hold? None of it flies. Unless running off with her was calculated long before the tourney for a different reason.
@scoliosis9478
2 жыл бұрын
maybe cuz hes obessed with the ice and fire prophecy he thinks a stark forms the “ice” part idk
@desireefarris6480
2 жыл бұрын
@@scoliosis9478 There are many Northern houses. Any daughter could be considered "ice" in that case. Many of which were at the Tourney. Plus Lyanna worshipped the old gods, which would rule out ridiculous sounding prophecies, and knew Rhaegar was married w/ kids. If she won't consent to Robert's philandering why, how, did she give Rheagar the time of day? :shrug:
@thisrandomdude2880
Жыл бұрын
"Hey, Lyanna, girl, love of my life, we have to get together, it's a canon event."
@DarkKing009
Жыл бұрын
Sir Arthur Dayne, Imagine keeping a dying girl from her brother and thinking yourself a knight at all.
@alexanderchristopher6237
Ай бұрын
I think all the Kingsguard forgotten themselves to be knights in shining armor after serving the Mad King for so many years. Unfortunately, their disgust for serving such a cruel king made them fall easily to be loyal to Rhaegar. Everyone in Westeros projects their wishes unto Rhaegar, including their wishes for a better Westeros. They’re willing to do Rhaegar’s dirty work for him, including plotting to overthrow the Mad King or prevent Ned from reaching his sister.
@umwha
2 жыл бұрын
You have convinced me. I’m happy with this interpretation. I was concerned that Lyanna was being outlined to be an empowered woman and that the story was that History may have remembered her as a passive victim but actually she chose to go, owning her own sexuality. She was the Knight of the laughing tree, and was escaping unwanted betrothals. I didn’t like that being the narrative because lyanna is 15. Martin does have a weird thing about teenage girls being hyper sexual and weirdly sexually empowered and mature. I still think that this may be the characterization Martin intends for Lyanna. We have Lady Lance, who is a lancer, tomboy, who is rebellious and who’s sexuality can’t be contained, and she had no compunction at kissing men twice her age. She is a Lyanna reference clearly, so her characterization reflects on Lyanna . Lady lance is due to meet Aegon soon, and many suspect that she will have an affair with him. So it’s quite possible Lyanna was another of this type. However you make a good case that the dynamic of manipulation is very much recurrent in the story.
@TheGoodLuc
Жыл бұрын
It would be very interesting if Robert's story, that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar, was actually closer to truth.
@michaelprice6448
2 жыл бұрын
It's actually pretty easy to imagine Lyanna agreeing to everything while knowing the truth. "Hey Lyanna you want to act however you like for the rest of your life? The price is one child. You won't even have to admit you had it out of wedlock, or that it exists."
@MegaKnight2012
2 жыл бұрын
Maybe that's why he convinced her to go to Dorne, where the pregnancy and baby could be better hidden
@arawn1061
Жыл бұрын
Thats some witcher 3 crook back bog shit
@sweetra07
2 жыл бұрын
I hate how Lyanna is constantly compared to Arya with everything. Even Ned said in his quote that "You remind me of her sometimes." The key word is "sometimes." Yes, Lyanna was partly like Arya but she also had some of Sansa's nature. Lyanna was never allowed to be like Arya even if she desired. Her father forbid her from doing so. We know this because Rickard never allowed Lyanna to carry a sword and the flashback in one of Bran's chapters where he sees two children sparring. Lyanna tells her brother to stop screaming or Old Nan will tell father. Lyanna dressed the part of a lady like Sansa did. Arya never liked being a lady or dressing like one. Its not farfetched to think Lyanna would fall for Rhaegar. Even Ned didn't think badly of the man. I think he would still feel hate for him if he actually kidnapped and raped her but he doesn't have any bad thoughts. Ned even states that Rhaegar wasn't the type to frequent brothels which is the type that Lyanna would fall for.
@miguelcondadoolivar5149
4 ай бұрын
That's what makes Rhaegar so hard to judge, that outer layer of virtue, prophecy and melancholy, accompanying his bravery and skill. Every account of him, even from his enemies, is quite heroic. He either dazzled them all with glamour or there was more to his actions.
@zara-zq1oi
Ай бұрын
@@miguelcondadoolivar5149 yeah the more being bloodraven manipulating him through weirwood visions/dreams but only telling him just enough to make him obsessed with his mission for the prophecy Exactly like Jojen reeds character is used by bloodraven to get bran.
@bladerunner951
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you! While I assumed that Rhaegar and Lyanna were Jon's parents long before it was confirmed by the show, I always doubted that their relationship was all sunshine and rainbows. Like you said, it just isn't GRRM's style and although many characters in Rhaegar's vicinity, like Jaime Lannister and Jon Connington, hold him in high regard I never had the feeling that Rhaegar was all he was cracked up to be. First of all, the way he passed the crown of flowers to Lyanna at the tournament at Harrenhal, in full view of his own wife, Lyanna's betrothed, not to mention both of their families, always seemed like a pompous ass move to me. Secondly, his obsession with prophecy always felt... iffy, to say the least. It's implied that he wanted Lyanna to provide him the "third head of the dragon", not necessarily because he loved her.
@nikolascoffey6453
2 жыл бұрын
Considering that he held lyanna in a tower and had his best King's guard keep her there. I'm 100 percent certain that he was basically keeping her as a sex slave, I mean the fucking tower was called "the tower of joy" and she most likely wasn't allowed to leave, considering her characterization, she wouldn't willingly stay cooped up in there no matter how much she loved him.
@MegaKnight2012
2 жыл бұрын
She seems like the kind who would want to ride up to personally fight for her family, even pregnant
@T0xXx1k
2 жыл бұрын
Idk man i been pregnant A time or 2 n I'd of gladly laid around some tower. No complaints. Being pregnant is pretty brutal across the board in my experience. Given the choice I'd of taken that tower any day of the week n even in today's world I'd take that tower fr fr 🧡🦇
@Allthingsasian
Жыл бұрын
That’s so true and Martin loves irony- so Lyanna suffers anything but joy whilst being confined in the tower of *joy*
@rossothecrimson7
Жыл бұрын
I think they were just guarding her because she was pregnant and robert wouldve killed the baby. I dont think she was being forced to stay there.
@Hozagen
2 жыл бұрын
The best description of love in ASoIaF is made by Catelyn Stark when she speaks about her marriage
@miguelcondadoolivar5149
4 ай бұрын
Those two really loved each other. I liked their depiction as a middle aged couple, filled with years of trust, respect and care. Even her last thoughts were of him.
@khfan4life365
6 ай бұрын
In the books, Ned found her in a pool of her own blood. Now whether that was from childbirth or not is debatable, but that just shows you the state Lyanna died in. She had been compared to Arya, which tells you the type of personality she had. She probably ran off with Rhaegar willingly but quickly regretted it.
@amaracrow0501
2 жыл бұрын
I'm interested on your viewpoint now that it's canon that the first Targaryen kings knew about the others? Does this change what the mad king meant by, "burn them all," or does this make Rhaegar and Lyanna's story more understandable? Like did she believe in the prophecy as well? It's obvious now that this is why Good Queen Allycent talked the Starks into giving more lang to the nightskeep. Wouldn't our of any other high Lord the Starks be the one family to believe in the prophecy as much as the Targaryens?
@kingsteve8083
11 ай бұрын
I think Lyanna went willingly. I think she *thought* she was in love, the way teenagers always think that they are in their first relationship. I think she was infatuated with him, and in her defence, what young lady wouldn't be? He's the handsome, dashing prince who as well as being a storied warrior, a scholar, and can also sing and play the harp. On paper he looks almost perfect. He was her teenage crush. I think Rhaegar was probably infatuated himself: Lyanna was beautiful, wild and wilful, as well as fulfilling the prophecies he'd read. I agree that his mind was probably more on the prophecies than on Lyanna herself; I think it wouldn't have mattered too much what Lyanna was like as a person, but that she was wild and different to other ladies was probably the icing on the cake and a breath of fresh air. I completely disagree about the suggestion that Rhaegar just marry her in secret and then declare to Westeros afterwards; Aerys would be livid and Rhaegar would probably fear his own father's wrath as much as the rebels'. I think he put her in that tower in Dorne to keep her away from Aerys. Rhaegar always spoke in absolutes, with no "ifs". One of these was his certainty of winning the war. He told Jaime Lannister, as he left Kings Landing, that when he won, he'd come back and set things to rights - he would have overthrown his batcrap-crazy father. Rhaegar was supremely confident he'd win that battle and the war itself. Therefore he had nothing to fear from the rebels, so why not keep Lyanna in Kings Landing? I think because of Aerys - either using her as a hostage or outright burning her.
@jlol933
2 жыл бұрын
this theory doesn't change the story much vs the story of them being star-crossed lovers but I think it makes sense
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, I think it is a more nuanced alteration in that it will affect the feelings and POVs of characters rather than radically changing the story, but I also just think it's kind of creepy and weird that the broader fan interpretation of this situation is that a teenager and an adult were in love.
@dccalling5960
2 ай бұрын
I've never seen what's so attractive about the targaryens personally but i REALLY dont see a girl with a personality like Arya's would fall for one who was already married
@thejurijo9388
Жыл бұрын
I haven't watched yet but thank you for saying this. Anyone with even a passing understanding of Rhaegar or Lyanna would know that love wasn't what was happening there. Lyanna understood that for all that Robert claimed to love her he wouldn't remain true to her. There is no way that love would be enough reason for her to abandon her family to be with a man who already had a wife and children. Rhaegar, a man who changed his personality due to a prophecy wouldn't risk his plans for a woman unless that woman played into that prophecy somehow. I don't have a clue what went on between Rhaegar and Lyanna but it definitely wasn't a 'love story'
@timy.9512
Жыл бұрын
Lya, you're so cool And with my star, we're gonna rule Lya, understand I'm gonna love you 'til the very end Lyanna (x10) I love you, oh Lyanna (x10) I love you, oh Stark, Tully and Baratheon, too Ten thousand rebel troops couldn't keep me from you Lyanna Stark, at the end of the line I'll make you mine, oh Lyanna (x10) I love you, oh
@donnadelrey7419
Жыл бұрын
Oh man this is just too good
@verde629
Жыл бұрын
Well to be fair Romeo and Juliet wasn’t a true love story either. It was a story of lust
@funsnailzzzz23
2 жыл бұрын
I dont like this notion that ASOIAF is lacking in love. Yeah maybe there isnt much there but Jon and Ygritte is really something. Its interesting Jon and Rhaegar both seem to find love the wildling way. Something that is fascinating is how vague AWOIAF is about this event. "Too well known to warrant repeating." That just screams they want us to question these events.
@orthochronicity6428
2 жыл бұрын
This is a really well done and compelling analysis. I definitely agree with parts, but not quite everything. Certainly the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna had some pure and impulsive love has always rang hollow and antithetical to ~waves hand~ everything else in the story. A couple things that are worth considering: 1. It's not just the prophecy about Rhaegar being the PTWP, but the Song of Ice and Fire. I'd expect that if anyone would be willing to take a Targaryen seriously about a cataclysmic prophecy involving the return of the Others, it would be a stark. 2. We don't know how long they may have spent together during the Tourney at Harrenhall. We know that Rhaegar was sent to seek the The Knight of the Laughing Tree, but not when he may have found the knight. If we're willing to go with Lyanna being the knight (which I certainly do, and I think most readers find her to be the most likely candidate). There's potentially multiple days of him pretending to be off seeking the Knight but them interacting. 3. There's also the weirdness of her abduction. She was in the vicinity of Harrenhall while Brandon and Rickard were traveling to Riverrun from Winterfell. It's always seemed weird that Lyanna would both be off on her own and Rhaegar would know exactly where and when to find her in order to abduct her, and it seems simpler to suppose they had stayed in contact and were meeting. Of course, none of this settles anything. There's enough wiggle room in the story to be uncertain and rationalize parts, but at the end of the day, we simply don't have enough info about what exactly had happened. It could easily be that Lyanna had intended to meet with Rhaegar but not to go with him and instead was compelled by Rhaegar hand his Kingsguard, for instance. So while I do think Lyanna was making decisions for herself, I do agree it can't be as simple as a glossy romance some people make it out to be. I see you have a Young Griff isn't Faegon video; I'm in that camp as well, so I'm curious what you have to say about it and am going to check that one out, too.
@po0l837
Жыл бұрын
Rhaegar never loved lyana. He always saw her as way to fullfill prophecy which Rhaegar was obssesed with. I think he got mad witj obssesion with propecy and kidnaped and raped lyana. or Bloddraven has his hands in this. otherwise, lovestory is very stupid
@Lizzie-ve7kt
2 жыл бұрын
THANK YOU!! Everything we know about George RR Martin’s writing style and how he writes complex, flawed characters shows that this isn’t a “romance,” with the noble prince and passive maiden. I’ve seen too many videos on other channels that don’t acknowledge the astounding lack of romance in the series. Seriously, the only healthy relationship I can think of is Davos and his wife and he even writes a letter apologizing for not being there for her. The ONLY thing I could maybe see Lyanna rationalizing is that Robert had bastards and would be likely to father more children out of wedlock with her whereas Rhaegar having an arranged marriage and his only known children were legitimate could maybe give Lyanna a teensy bit of empathy since she too was about to be forced into marriage for political reasons as her father sought to have more allies outside of the north. I definitely don’t think they had a love story as I see him as using Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy as she’s the “ice” to his “fire” in the “song of ice and fire.” I also could kind of see Lyanna as being a bit of a mixture of Arya and Sansa since we do have that passage of her crying during one of Rhaegar’s songs which definitely does not seem like something Arya would’ve ever done. I also think it’s important to take into account how Lyanna was closest to Benjen since Ned had spend a good portion of his childhood with Robert in the Vale, so I could see how Ned’s memories of Lyanna could only be about the tough exterior that she had as I don’t doubt that she was tough and independent though I think having only brothers she could’ve possibly hid her more vulnerable traits like how she got upset with Benjen for laughing at her tears and she immediately reacted to her brother making fun of her by punching him to show that she’s not “soft” and to cover up her embarrassment. I think that her sense of honor and her liking Rhaegar’s song make her a bit more of a mix of Sansa and Arya in my mind as I could actually see her being a bit more like Brienne of Tarth in that she is honorable and admires the chivalry of knighthood and the songs written about it so her naïveté as a young girl who could’ve possibly seen-at least at first-Rhaegar as this noble ideal of a knightly prince who could’ve also manipulated her by framing his keeping her identity as the knight of the laughing tree a secret as some sort of secret bond the two have and he could’ve done all of this in a calculated plan to endear himself to her and I think that her youth and not really believing in love conquering all could’ve made it so that his initial “courtship” of her was perhaps less romantic and more friendly as he could’ve played on her idealism and honor by showing this facade of who she might see herself as in that she was tough but also has a sensitive side. I think that he could’ve been manipulating her by writing letters back and forth in the year between the tourney and her leaving with him and that she maybe saw it as going on an adventure-heck, he could’ve lied to her by promising his friendship and protection from being forced into an unwanted marriage or even how he and his friend Arthur Dayne could teach her how to really fight and be a knight and how when he became king he’d make it so that brave girls like herself could be part of his kings guard, then he could’ve flipped the script on her and held her hostage and raped her or manipulated her in some way into giving him his prophecy baby. One final thought is how Martin saying that Rhaegar was “love struck” could actually have a different, less obvious meaning in that he was love struck with the prophecy and how he found Lyanna who would be the one to fulfill it. Idk if my theory anywhere close to the actual story, but thank you for actually acknowledging the conflicting characterization of these two and how little a Romeo & Juliet story makes sense within the context of Martin’s writing.
@GabFrrost
2 жыл бұрын
TLDR
@MountainPearls
2 жыл бұрын
I wonder if, in part, Lyanna’s story is why Arya wouldn’t stay and “be a Baratheon Lady” with Gendry Baratheon at the end-thinking of her death-instead of living the destiny she wanted to (much like Arya’s? Also, perhaps Lyanna have a bit of Stockholm Syndrome-only realizing she had been…coerced and seduced in misleading way-especially after Rhaegar left and she found herself pregnant and unable to get home.
@cristinademartini1284
2 жыл бұрын
No, i think Arya only wasn't able to accept Gendry's propose because of the traumas she had lived and she had to "search" herself" Let's not fool ourselves: Gendry knew exactly who Arya is and what she's capable of, and he loved her because of that: so, when he said "Lady of Storm's End", he simply meant a lady warrior like Lyanna Mormont and rule together as equals, for he would never be getting Arya under his authorithy, also because he's a new nobleman and as he told her, he knew nothing of nobility and its rules. She would have taught him. And he wanted it because he felt like he was finally worthy of a lady like her.
@seren4740
2 жыл бұрын
I don't consider that canon, it was terribly written for the series. Makes no sense that Arya went through all of the series wanting to avenge her family and go back to her land just to go back to the same old shit she was just trying to get out of. Booooring
@Ilargizuri
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this Video. I always had a feeling that there was something odd about Rhaegar and Lyanna's Story, I never believed in the Kidnapping and Rape-Story we heard from Robert Baratheon, because honestly, that Guy uses his Power and Money to abuse Women for his personal entertainment which almost always ends with him and them in a Bed dancing horizontal Tango. So how could I believe his Version of that Story, especially when it came from the not so well informed Guess of the Father and older Brother who both wanted Lyanna to marry that guy? But I couldn't believe that Lyanna is the Type for a Love affair with a married Man since Book one, mostly because of Ned's Memories and the fact that he compares Arya and Lyanna, with Arya being not interested in Marriage at all. Unfortunately, I met someone on Social Media who is really fanatic in their Believe that Jon and Daenerys will have a passionate Love Affair and Lyannas and Rhaegar's Story is foreshadowing that. Of course, the Guy who is mostly compared to Ned in the early Books will have a passionate Love Affair with a violent Dragon Lady, sorry I can't believe that. I think it is more likely he ends up in Bed with her, because he realizes it is safer for Sansa and all his surviving Siblings to bed that crazy Woman instead of fighting her on the Battlefield. If he still cares about his Siblings after his resurrection, the Books imply that Ressurection isn't as unproblematic as it seems in the Show.
@HillsAliveYT
2 жыл бұрын
Well, if the theory that Jon is "alive" inside ghost in his pre-resurrection time, which totally makes sense, then I would assume that he'll be even more caring/protective over his family given how much the direwolves tend to signify their mystical connection with each other. I personally don't even expect Jon and Dany to have a romance though, their personalities seem to drastically clash and when you think of the kind of dudes Dany tends to be attracted to, Jon is the polar opposite (and largely vice versa, Dany doesn't seem to be Jon's type at all either). And yeah, the Rhaegar Lyanna love story is something I didn't fully question for a while, but the fact that we know so little about Rhaegar and Lyanna's personalities BUT literally everything we actually do know seems to go against the notion that they just got swept up in romance seems telling.
@Ilargizuri
2 жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT I didn't think about that, it makes sense I mean all Wargs/Skinchanger Jon met so far died and lived on in some Animal, so it would make sense that something similar would happen to him pre-resurrection. Well, I agree, the personalities of these two don't work together. I just wanted to share my opinion, as well as my experience with other Fans. Unfortunately, GRRM loves his Red Herrings and he introduced one recently at the Wall who has Platin blond Hair and is presented as a Love Interest for Jon. Some Dragon Lady Fans think again it is foreshadowing, that he and Daenerys will become a couple. But Val is just Val and not a foreshadowing for Jon and Daenerys. Sometimes an Apple is just an Apple and not a metaphor for anything.
@hez859
2 жыл бұрын
@@HillsAliveYT idk i think there will be a romance between jon and dany. The blue rose filling the air with sweetness in Dany's vision in ACOK has me thinking this
@Ilargizuri
Жыл бұрын
@@hez859 Interestingly there is a wide misinterpretation of Flower-Language in the General Audience. Such Flowercrowns as they are used in ASOIAF are not tied to the meaning of the flowers which are used. Most of the Time in the Ages when Flowers could not be cultivated they used just the Seasonal Flowers and I think GRRM mentioned that Blue Winterroses can only grow in a colder Climate, which is already implied with the Name, WINTERROSE. I can't remember that they are mentioned in the South, only in the North and we know that the Tourney of Harrenhal took Place in the year of false Spring in the Riverlands, so probably a cold Climate is needed for these Flowers. Furthermore, it is said that the Victor of a Tourney names any present woman the Queen of Love and Beauty with one wrath of Flowers. So in the Show Sansa was named Queen of Love and Beauty in the Hands Tourney, I forgot if she was named the Queen of Love and Beauty in the Books, but anyway, nowhere was a blue Rose to be seen and I think in the Books Ser Jorah mentioned that he named his second wife the Queen of Love and Beauty but never mentioned which Flowers were used for the Flower crown. Blue Flowers, especially in Flowerlanguage are actually used to symbolize Fidelity or Spirituality. And Roses not always have the romantic Message we think they have. A yellow Rose is actually a symbol for an unloyal or jealous Person, a white Rose is a Flower which symbolizes Death, a pink Rose means Happiness, and a Scarlett Rose means Shame. Also, a Red Tulip can be a symbol of Love in the Netherlands, so Flowerlanguage is also tied to the Countries. In a Setting like ASOIAF which is highly inspired by British Culture, Roses are tied to Royalty and Country England (England is a Rose, Scotland is a thistle, North Ireland is Clover and Wales is Leek or Daffodil depending on who you ask). So a Rose isn't automatically a symbol of romantic Love or the offspring of a romantic relationship. I think the Blue Rose in Daenerys Vision just means that the Off-Spring of Lyanna Stark is at the Wall. Nothing more and nothing less, we learn about the Blue Winterrose in GoT and in ACoK we see a blue Flower in the Wall, most likely a blue Winterrose but it is not said. So Blue Flowers are a symbol for Lyanna Stark, but it isn't automatically a symbol for Love.
@hez859
Жыл бұрын
@@Ilargizuri oh yeah i know roses dont necessarily mean romance but "filling the air with sweetness" as she describes the flower blossoming from the ice is a specific and oddly positive description. Not the "sickly sweet" way Geroge describes death and or pestillence is telling for me.. Plus in her interpretation of betrayers or people not to trust in the house of the undying there really isnt anything that points towards Jon being one of those people. Tyrion, possibly Stannis and or Euron, and the Aegon(if he isnt a fraud ofc) are viewed in that light and also the Sun's son aka Quentyn.
@kk8490
2 жыл бұрын
Shout out to Bobby B for saving us from having Rhaegar in the main story!🥰
@cristinademartini1284
2 жыл бұрын
Bobby B is the real king! Fuck Bran with his "Robert's rebellion was built on a lie" crap.
@fightingmedialounge519
9 ай бұрын
Robberts not exactly a great guy either.
@ruddyman4928
2 жыл бұрын
Are you saying that Robert's rebellion was built on a lie?
@khfan4life365
4 ай бұрын
Writing them as star-crossed lovers makes no sense, considering what’s being set up in the books. It makes Rhaegar look worse and Lyanna look terrible. For the sake of argument, let’s say she does have feelings for Rhaegar. Judging by her established character, there’s no way she’d be okay with Rhaegar abandoning his wife and children to be with her. She was against Robert having mistresses and bastards. There’s no way she’d be fine with doing the very thing she condemned.
@myboredomwidens
2 жыл бұрын
it's never love when a man isolates a woman from her family and friends for whatever reason he may give. the treatment Lyanna received is imprisonment!
@redjirachi1
Жыл бұрын
"Actually it's called ephebophilia"-Rhaegar Targaryen and Petyr Baelish, probably
@jeffreysamson5938
2 жыл бұрын
I never believed a woman compared to arya would fall in a romantic relationship with rhaegar like that After the death of her dad and bro by the mans father.
@Marcusjnmc
2 жыл бұрын
it would have happened prior rather than after , if it did
@jeffreysamson5938
2 жыл бұрын
@@Marcusjnmc whatever the case their romance is a little messed up
@kingjonstarkgeryan8573
2 жыл бұрын
Tell me you didn't read the books without telling you didn't read the books. Them being in love is completely within their characters and within GRRM's style as no matter how you cut it. It is very bittersweet. Their love being a classic tale of chivalric romance, but the consequences would be extremely bitter to them and their loved ones. Thus, bittersweet. The sweetness coming from the love story and the bitterness coming from what came after. Lyanna is combination of Sansa and Arya in terms of character. She is wild and willful like Arya but she appreciates more ladylike and conventional things like beautiful music, romance, and fidelity. It is in line with her wild and willful nature to be willing to run away from a horrid betrothal like the one she had with Robert and in line with her more conventional romantic side to fall for Dragon Prince who is the soul of chivalry and appreciated her wild and willful side. Combine that with a spiel about how their union will save the world. Yeah, I would get weak in the knees too. Rhaegar was melancholy man forever haunted by his birth coming with so much death for his family and the prophecies heralding the end of the world. He was the epitome of nobility and chivalry, and determined to do his duty to all the realms of men let alone the Seven Kingdoms; who did nothing without prior planning. He was good at everything he did and when he set his mind to something he was single minded in it's accomplishment. While often saying little, he inspired a fanatical loyalty in the men who served him. He raised an army larger than the combined host of half the Continent after a decisive loyalist defeat. He won over the staunchly traditionalist Lord Commander of the Kingsguard to continue fighting in his name even after he died, and his friends would do everything within their power to keep him and his legacy safe & restored. He is a classic Byronic hero. While being single-minded he was also very flexible with his understanding of prophecy. A unique anomaly among those with a interest in the arcane. Is he arrogant and does he have a Messiah complex, yes. He was the crown prince and only child for most of his life. So it would be impossible for him to not be. But he is humble enough to realize when the signs don't point to him but his child. First Aegon and then potentially Lyanna. A simple act of insane bravery and chivalry would create the circumstances that led to their first meeting and sudden connection for sure, but nothing that would cause them to run away. But a year later with probable raven mail, the revelation of Elia not being able to produce anymore children, and Lyanna's own marriage coming up. They made the decision to elope (Rhaegar's refusal to try again with Elia after learning that if she became pregnant again she would die, actually shows that he was kind) was made. Disaster happened and they were spotted in a comprising position or circumstance which led to the rumor that she was kidnapped. We know what happened after. Lies and war followed as Rhaegar and Lyanna were hidden away enjoying a secret honeymoon ensuring that none could set aside their union. Then Hightower arrives and their world is shattered. Lyanna now depressed and pregnant over the loss of her older brother and father. Rhaegar now has to fight for his father as the rebels will never take him, and perhaps they quarreled with Rhaegar wanting to keep her and their child safe while Lyanna wanted to return to her family thinking maybe that might bring peace. Rhaegar likely not trusting Eddard Stark as unlike Benjen, Ned was not close to Lyanna at the time as he had been fostered in the Vale and likely was the one who presented the offer from Robert and pushed Rickard into accepting. Rhaegar certainly doesn't trust Arryn who created a powerful alliance against House Targaryen even before the tourney of Harrenhal, and while willing to make peace, he did not trust his drunken lecher of a cousin to not abuse Lyanna should she return and try to explain everything. The war happens, Rhaegar dies, and Lyanna dies in childbirth or soon after. Losing her father, brother, and husband. The only thing she had left was her newborn son whose loyal Kingsguard share Rhaegar's mistrust of Ned. They die along with most of Ned's companions. She begs her brother to save her son, and perhaps more. It's a perfect bittersweet tale.
@jorgebersabe293
6 ай бұрын
Or in your case, tell me that you have read too much traditional fairytales and when you read something that basically doesn't treat you like a moron you broke.
@bloodaonadeline8346
2 жыл бұрын
There is no such thing as “pure romantic love” in our world I don’t know why one would expect it to exist in a series that tries really hard to be realistic.
@johnnyboygriffin5764
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah no one ever falls in love in real life!
@justdirt
Жыл бұрын
It definitely was not true love, but there wasn't nothing there. 1 side of the story has that Rhaegar violently took her and forcibly impregnated her then locked her in a tower. But this is Robert and Ned's retelling of events. The 2 people who were most effected and closest to the situation. This is the beginning of book 1 we are told this, then in the next 4 books we are told that Rhaegar was the perfect prince, but aloof from his duties as prince. I personally think the Truth is somewhere in there, but believe Rhaegar was a pawn himself. Maybe to the 3 eyed Crow, maybe to dreams of the future, but the story of Rhaegar obsessing over an old prophecy to the point of starting a civil war and raping a teenager because he read a scroll at some point sounds like a stretch. I think and also want to believe that Rhaegar coerced into becoming a knight, a singer, a father, than what he later did. This wouldn't be the first story of a young boy being led on magic journey in hopes for good things. Bran's story. Bran's story has had him skin change into a person, lie to many people, eat human flesh, etc. Jojen sacrifices everything because he sees the future, he eats human flesh, starves, nearly freezes to death, etc. Jojen knows he is gonna die but goes along with it. He probably knows no one else will be happy, bit the unavoidable future. Bran will likely want to say no if Bloodraven forces him to start doing darker things for "the good of the realm". Yes Sansa and Arya's stories line up with Lyanna, but Bran' lines up with Rhaegar. People being misled and forced down dark paths because of prophecies and seeing the future is even more common than older people manipulating young people in the story. Idk, I also just think it would be the best story if Rhaegar knew he'd die very young and so he learned instruments and became a knight and read all the histories. It would explain why he was so distant from everyone, why become close with someone who will lose you. It would make it more interesting if he had some force pushing him to forsake his vows for a teenager, take her away for the good of the realm. And Lyanna was rebellious. But house Stark takes vows seriously, the take promises ultra serious, etc. What is more rebellious than running away with the older more dream like prince and spitting on the vows and promises of your house. It seems like something a 15 year old would do. A song of ice and fire is very complex. You're 100% right, but I feel like Rhaegar being the ultimate tragic prince driven or even forced into an unwinnable situation a.d Lyanna being the Stark that broke promises, didn't care about vows or pacts, and died tragically young because she gave into and forced herself to believe in the magic prince saving the world. When you frame Rhaegar as the idealic prince of legend who's children will save the world and Lyanna as the naive rebellious teen doing everything she can to be independent and different from her house. Suddenly the idea of Rhaegar being this older man manipulating Lyanna doesn't exactly fit. It was definitely a factor in all of it, but as this video was kinda getting at, Rhaegar did none of it maliciously, that he knew his death but not the death's of 2 of his kids and both of his lovers. That's the issue with this whole scenario tho. We don't know Rhaegar nor Lyanna. We never see them interact outside of a single gesture, we never see them from a non biased pov.
@heresfrankbetches921
2 жыл бұрын
I was talking about it for years finally somebody is mentioning it
@imperialisticvonhabsburg3149
5 ай бұрын
The Starks may have gone South demanding heads to roll, for Lyanna's dissaperance, but the rebellion started because the Mad King killed the 2 eldest Starks. After the rebellion had already started, Rheagar and Lyanna coming out as a married couple wouldn't have changed anything, as killing the family head of a major house and his heir became the new Casus Belli. It would have just made Lyanna and Rheagar look foolish. That being said, I completely agree there is no way Lyanna fell for Rheagar and this being two willing parties makes absolutely no sense.
@lazarus2123
2 жыл бұрын
Great video filled with some nice ideas that really makes you question what you thought you knew about Rhaegar.
@guciowitomski3825
Жыл бұрын
The quote you provided doesn’t indicate that „love is not enough for her”, the quote only states that She believes that if one is cruel and unfaithful, love wouldn’t change that. It’s just that love doesn’t change who one is, but it doesn’t say anything about her own wants and desires.
@erikadlloyd5586
2 жыл бұрын
I think Lyanna was plain a simple not feeling Robert and Running off with the Prince was her only other option. Robert would have ended up treating her like trash too.
@thalmoragent9344
2 жыл бұрын
Always said the biggest tragedy is how Rhaegar set up this situation with no regard for his realm or current family all over the Prophecy. He could've definitely taken safer measures, or been more open and pragmatic, even if he felt the situation was dire for the sake of Westeros. Robert wasn't an angel by any means but, I'd have bashed the hell out of Rhaegar for his actions too... (as well as his father's)
@MegaKnight2012
2 жыл бұрын
What if he did know? What if he saw the ensuing war, possibly even his own death, as a kind of blood sacrifice to bring about Azhor Ahai's new birth? Targaryens seemed to have used blood sacrifices to birth dragons, and Azhor Ahai translates as Bright Dragon, so why wouldn't this Targaryen follow in his family traditions to commit blood sacrifices? Through Rhaegar's actions, Jon was born beneath a Bleeding Star, the blood of the Sword of the Morning, Rhaegar's best friend, Ser Arthur Dayne. If Rhaegar misinterpreted a prophecy, it's one of the easiest explanations why so much misery comes from his actions. It's why it's so dangerous to separate faith from reason. We already see with the likes of Melisandre how misinterpreting prophecy can lead one to make mistakes. Melisandre believes the ends justify the means, that however many she kills, as long as Azhor Ahai is reborn to fight the Long Night, it is worth it, whilst Ser Davos Seaworth sees the opposite. Ser Davos uses reason, whereas Melisandre is faith-bound religious zealot. Martin's use of of how prophecy can lead others to commit great evil is so amazingly done. Melisandre gets Stanos to commit kinslaying as well as human sacrifice, weirdly making her like the Tiger Woman consort of the Bloodstone Emperor, who are credited with causing the Long Night rather than fixing it, setting them up as antagonists to the heroic Azhor Ahai.
Пікірлер: 976